Is The Word Yid Offensive To The People Who Use It?

[lapsedhibee]

Some brigade or other trying to get Tottingham fans to stop referring to themselves as The Yid Army:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20244204

[VickMackie]

Sounds like this society of black lawyers are trying to make a name for themselves.

The point in the article doesn't make sense with the reference to the N word because some black people do use it!

I bet we'll see a lot more of them picking on anything and everything.

[Future17]

Good to see Dean Furman getting involved after his strong stance against secterianism while at Rangers. Oh, wait a minute.....

[Jonnyboy]

I'm with them on this one. I mean where will all this chanting and flags stuff end? Even our own fans are at it by using the word "Hibs" in many songs and that's a four letter word just like **** and ****

:wink:

[yeezus.]

I think it has to do with Spurs being the Jewish club, or at least that's what I was told.

It's the same as black people using the "N" word - they use it as an obscenity.

[--------]

Some brigade or other trying to get Tottingham fans to stop referring to themselves as The Yid Army:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20244204


I remember a December derby Spurs-West Ham in the 60's where the Hammers support was belting out a version of "Jingle Bells" with the line, "O what fun it is to gas the Jews on Christmas Day". That song was taken up by fans of other London clubs, basically because Spurs had a number of Jewish backers and a lot of their fans were Jewish. It was, IMO, utterly offensive and needed stopping.

It was that sort of thing that led to the Spurs fans referring to themselves as the "Yid Army", and yes, it was defensive, and it can hardly be considered racist for people of Jewish origins to refer to themselves in this way. Someone starts laying into your ethnic/racial background, a good way to get back is to take the language they're using to insult you, and embrace it. It's a but difficult to abuse someone by calling him something he calls himself.

However, maybe this is something the Spurs fans need to get over and past, but I can't help feeling that eventually no one will be able to say anything anywhere for fear of upsetting someone who overhears - even if that person's listening in to a conversation that's nothing to do with him/her. I'd be more impressed if the protest was coming from a Jewish organisation, noy the Society of Black Lawyers. (Truthfully, if someone mistook me for a LAWYER, and addressed me by the 'L' word, I'd be mortally offended.)

Some years ago there was a campaign in US schools to ban "Huckleberry Finn" on the grounds that many characters used the word '******'. Since the novel's set in the South in the 1840's, it would have been totally unrealistic if Mark Twain had had southern slaveholders talking about 'African-Americans', and since Twain wrote the novel as the account of poor white trash Huck Finn's awakening to the fact that his mate Jim (and slave on the run for freedom) is a human being with the same feelings, the same thoughts, and the same rights, as Huck himself. In other words, the novel is a critique of racism, albeit an inperfect and ultimately rather bleak one.

So that Twain, who over his lifetime became more and more aware of and opposed to racism, including his own (he was born and brought up in the South), was banned from US high schools and colleges. And a book that's highly relevant and significant in the study of historical attitudes and awareness or lack of awareness of racial prejudice and injustice no longer figures in the curriculum.

[speedy_gonzales]

It's a but difficult to abuse someone by calling him something he calls himself.
It might be difficult to 'abuse' but certainly not to cause offence, or for offence to be taken.
As has been touched on earlier, some black people refer to themselves as '******', I'm as sure as can be that if a white dude was to address a black dude in a similar vein offence would be taken, by someone!

[--------]

It might be difficult to 'abuse' but certainly not to cause offence, or for offence to be taken.

As has been touched on earlier, some black people refer to themselves as '******', I'm as sure as can be that if a white dude was to address a black dude in a similar vein offence would be taken, by someone!


But isn't that the point?

I've heard a number of Jewish stand-up comedians telling jokes about Jews that I couldn't possibly have told without getting myself lynched. And I've heard Frankie Boyle (NOT a racist!) telling jokes about Scots at which I've laughed - because FB's a Scot. If (e.g.) Russ Abbot had told them, I'd have been thinking seriously about pounding him to a pulp. From an Englishman, those jokes would be racist in the extreme. From FB, they're actually funny in a tormented way.

A Scot can make a mock of another Scot in a way that undercuts rather than reinforing racial stereotyping. A Jewish comedian can do the same about Jewish people - with the same proviso. Similarly a black comedian - Reginald D Hunter's a good example of someone who challenges racial stereotyping by rubbing it in the faces of his white audience; Cosby, on the other hand, simply reinforced white prejudices and assumptions about blacks.

Spurs fans referring to themselves as 'Yids' goes back to the days when the fans of the other London clubs (and most of the clubs from outside London too) regularly levelled anti-semitic songs and chants at them. It was a case of "You think you can insult me by calling me a Yid? If I call myself a 'Yid', and even make clear that I'm proud of being a 'Yid', what happens to your insults?"

I'm still trying to work out how exactly the term 'Yid' can be considered offensive to a black lawyer.

And are some lawyer jokes potentially racist on the basis that in any large group of lawyers, some may be assumed to be of African or Caribbean descent?

[euansdad]

A lot of it is context. From our perspective, an Englishman calls us a jock so and so and we want to pan their teeth down their throats but its also an endearment to in some way. My old man used to love the name jock and that's what many of his pals called him because he went by that name, feeling it denoted Scottishness. Quite a few ex-pats take in that name so there you go

[--------]

A lot of it is context. From our perspective, an Englishman calls us a jock so and so and we want to pan their teeth down their throats but its also an endearment to in some way. My old man used to love the name jock and that's what many of his pals called him because he went by that name, feeling it denoted Scottishness. Quite a few ex-pats take in that name so there you go


Depends on the tone of voice as well, I think. If the guy's friendly, I don't mind it. "Jocko" I don't take - that suggests the guy's being cheeky and condescending. Scottish soldiers whether they're in Scottish regiments or not have been "Jocks" from time immemorial, and usually it's a sign of respect. (Not always, mind.)

Now if it wasn't being the YID Army that Spurs fans were singing about, but supposing it was black supporters responding to opposing fans making monkey noises or chanting "******" at them ... Would the Society of Black Lawyers be a little more understanding?

[Sylar]

But isn't that the point?

I've heard a number of Jewish stand-up comedians telling jokes about Jews that I couldn't possibly have told without getting myself lynched. And I've heard Frankie Boyle (NOT a racist!) telling jokes about Scots at which I've laughed - because FB's a Scot. If (e.g.) Russ Abbot had told them, I'd have been thinking seriously about pounding him to a pulp. From an Englishman, those jokes would be racist in the extreme. From FB, they're actually funny in a tormented way.

A Scot can make a mock of another Scot in a way that undercuts rather than reinforing racial stereotyping. A Jewish comedian can do the same about Jewish people - with the same proviso. Similarly a black comedian - Reginald D Hunter's a good example of someone who challenges racial stereotyping by rubbing it in the faces of his white audience; Cosby, on the other hand, simply reinforced white prejudices and assumptions about blacks.

Spurs fans referring to themselves as 'Yids' goes back to the days when the fans of the other London clubs (and most of the clubs from outside London too) regularly levelled anti-semitic songs and chants at them. It was a case of "You think you can insult me by calling me a Yid? If I call myself a 'Yid', and even make clear that I'm proud of being a 'Yid', what happens to your insults?"

I'm still trying to work out how exactly the term 'Yid' can be considered offensive to a black lawyer.

And are some lawyer jokes potentially racist on the basis that in any large group of lawyers, some may be assumed to be of African or Caribbean descent?

Section 5 states that it doesn't matter who is using the term - if it causes offense, you can still be charged.

For example, if I were surrounded by a group of black men all using the term "******" as some do, if I or anyone else in proximity were to take offense to it, they can still be arrested.

This "defensive" argument only washes so far to be honest - I have a few black friends who deplore the thought of using the term "******", despite the fact that many black people do use it as a defensive or reappropriated term.

The same applies here. If other Jews are offended by and chose to complain about Spurs fans using the term (which perhaps has historical significance, but much like Rangers/Celtic and some of their chants/associations, is irrelevant in a 21st century football match anyway) then there are justifiable grounds for action to be taken.

Edit: I'd like to stress that I'm not necessarily an advocate or defender of Section 5 - merely citing the potential issues which arise as a result of it's existence.

[Sylar]

Quite an interesting address by Rowan Atkinson which covers some of the issues being discussed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gciegyiLYtY

[--------]

Quite an interesting address by Rowan Atkinson which covers some of the issues being discussed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gciegyiLYtY


Excellent.

[heretoday]

Most Spurs fans use the Yid thing as a flag to wave, whether they are Jewish or not.

It's only rich types like David Baddiel who get all worked up about it. Maybe he should worry instead about why no one finds him funny any more.

When the Arsenal fans did the hissing song it was offensive to everyone watching and not just Spurs.