When is a foul not a foul?

[Big Ed]

Watching a replay of Aberdeen's first goal, Derek Rae asks Stephen Craigan whether he thinks Hanlon has been fouled or not.
"Not for me" says Craigan, despite the fact that Hanlon's ability to jump for the ball is impeded by Vernon stopping him with a hand in the face.
Trying to explain this to a non football fan would be difficult: "is Vernon allowed to do that?"
"no"
"but the co-commentator says it's not a foul and he's an expert"
Which brings me to the point: football seems to have rules, but simultaneously, it also has a code, which players, managers, referees and fans are all expected to understand. In this instance: the defender (Hanlon) shouldn't have been such a pussy.
This rules/code conundrum might appear to work, but it falls apart when the code goes against you (in fairness, I haven't heard anyone from Hibs whinging about this incident).
More generally however, the rules (rather than the code) are brought up by the team, usually the Manager, who believe they are hard done by by the Ref.
After match punditry usually involves a rules or code debate, which, if it's a Champions League night, invariably confirms to me that Graeme Souness is a ****.

[givescotlandfreedom]

One that always comes up is the shielding the ball out for a bye kick which would be obstruction in the module of the park. Claris yesterday also did the same thing in the box when Williams was a bit slow coming off his line. Haven't seen a replay of their first but a hand in the face is a clear foul surely?

[Mikeystewart]

tbf i think we got off lightly yesterday.

Dojy Decisions Against Hibs:
Foul against hanlon
nigly fouls throughout the game from the aberdeen players

Dojy Decisions Against Aberdeen:
Hanball by McPake in the box
Easily a red card offence for maybury
Vernon offside 1 and 1 with the keeper when actually onside

On the whole i dont think we played well but created easily as many good chances as Aberdeen.
difference being aberdeen took theirs.

[Big Ed]

tbf i think we got off lightly yesterday.

Dojy Decisions Against Hibs:
Foul against hanlon
nigly fouls throughout the game from the aberdeen players

Dojy Decisions Against Aberdeen:
Hanball by McPake in the box
Easily a red card offence for maybury
Vernon offside 1 and 1 with the keeper when actually onside

On the whole i dont think we played well but created easily as many good chances as Aberdeen.
difference being aberdeen took theirs.

I really only used the Hanlon incident to illustrate my point that football appears to have an alternative to the rules to the official ones.
How lucky or unlucky Hibs were yesterday has been done on other threads.

[Kato]

A player is allowed to stand their ground. If he wants to shield the ball out of play whilst he has it under control it's up to the opposition player to find his own space or go around the defender. If every player had to make way just because an opposition wanted to take up that space the game would be played by people called Cedric and wouldn't resemble what we see now.

[Hibby 2005]

Maybury against ICT and Hanlon yesterday were weak at crucial moments and made the mistake of looking to the ref to bail them out.

[hibbysam]

A player is allowed to stand their ground. If he wants to shield the ball out of play whilst he has it under control it's up to the opposition player to find his own space or go around the defender. If every player had to make way just because an opposition wanted to take up that space the game would be played by people called Cedric and wouldn't resemble what we see now.

So in the middle of the pitch if I made no attempt to play the ball, but just stuck my body in front of an opponent to stop him getting to the ball I wouldn't be giving away a foul?

It is obstruction no matter what way you look at it, You either have to go and play the ball, if not you can't then stop the other players from getting it.

Nobody is asking you to "make way" just go ahead and play the ball and not obstruct your opponent.

[Scouse Hibee]

When is a foul not a foul?

When the ref doesn't give it............play to the whistle simple.

[Mikeystewart]

When is a foul not a foul?

When the ref doesn't give it............play to the whistle simple.

:agree:

[nonshinyfinish]

So in the middle of the pitch if I made no attempt to play the ball, but just stuck my body in front of an opponent to stop him getting to the ball I wouldn't be giving away a foul?

It is obstruction no matter what way you look at it, You either have to go and play the ball, if not you can't then stop the other players from getting it.

Nobody is asking you to "make way" just go ahead and play the ball and not obstruct your opponent.

If the ball is deemed to be under your control, then you are allowed to shield it like that anywhere on the pitch. Obviously it's easier to do it jammed in the corner than in the middle of the centre circle...

[StevieC]

Maybury against ICT and Hanlon yesterday were weak at crucial moments and made the mistake of looking to the ref to bail them out.

I said after the ICT game that I didn't think it was a foul on Maybury (and stand by that) but it was definitely a foul on Hanlon yesterday. If you watch the player when he jumps he's not even looking at the ball.


So in the middle of the pitch if I made no attempt to play the ball, but just stuck my body in front of an opponent to stop him getting to the ball I wouldn't be giving away a foul?

It depends on whether you are deemed to be "in control" of the ball.

A striker with his back to goal can "shield" the ball from a defender without it being deemed obstrusction. From an early age you try to teach strikers to take the ball to feet and then try and hold up play for the midfield to support. It's a fundamental part of the game tactically and it would be difficult to make a clear distinction between a striker "shielding" a ball for support play and a defender "shielding" a ball to safety.


EDIT: What he said ..


If the ball is deemed to be under your control, then you are allowed to shield it like that anywhere on the pitch. Obviously it's easier to do it jammed in the corner than in the middle of the centre circle...

[Kato]

So in the middle of the pitch if I made no attempt to play the ball, but just stuck my body in front of an opponent to stop him getting to the ball I wouldn't be giving away a foul?

No.

If you have the ball under control it isn't a foul.


It is obstruction no matter what way you look at it, You either have to go and play the ball, if not you can't then stop the other players from getting it.

You're not looking at it every way possible.

If it isn't your ball and the opposition player has it or is in a position to play it and you block him it's obstruction, or whatever they call it now. If it's your ball you have no obligation to play the ball - you can coddle it, blow on it, spin your feet around it or sit on it - there is no obligation to kick it.

Football is unique in that the laws don't tell you how to play the game or what you must do when on the ball, only what you cannot do. What you must do is up to your own imagination (within the laws), which is what makes the great players great. Shielding the ball is perfectly legal. If it wasn't some (all!!) of the best players who ever set foot on the grass wouldn't have ever graced the game.


Nobody is asking you to "make way" just go ahead and play the ball and not obstruct your opponent.

A player is entitled to stand his ground. If an opposition player tries to barge past you it's a foul for you. He has to go around you. Hate to think what the game would be like if shielding wasn't permitted. "After you Cyril, no after you Cecil". You may as well watch highly polite people open doors for each other.

[allezsauzee]

Their first goal was never a foul. Football is not a non contact sport...yet

[HibeesLittleHel]

I think the lack of constructive criticism / review hurts our game in Scotland.
The only real media input (apart from high profile - i.e. Old firm) is sportscene tucked away on a Sunday night and offering little other than sanitised sound bites from "media monkeys".

What we need is a TV programme that analyses every game and the contentious issues in it SO WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM.
It would act to police trends in our game, like simulation, inconsitent refereeing and player awareness of the rules. They have it in the US and in Italy for their sports. Some creative initiative from our media moguls and a budget to support it and we would see a positive input to the beautiful game in Scotland.

Thoughts?

[hibsbollah]

I think the lack of constructive criticism / review hurts our game in Scotland.
The only real media input (apart from high profile - i.e. Old firm) is sportscene tucked away on a Sunday night and offering little other than sanitised sound bites from "media monkeys".

What we need is a TV programme that analyses every game and the contentious issues in it SO WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM.
It would act to police trends in our game, like simulation, inconsitent refereeing and player awareness of the rules. They have it in the US and in Italy for their sports. Some creative initiative from our media moguls and a budget to support it and we would see a positive input to the beautiful game in Scotland.

Thoughts?

Agree completely :agree: Sportscene and its ilk are a significant factor in the lack of interest in the domestic game. I really believe that. Potential spectators are being turned off the sport as a whole because it looks, from a tv production standpoint, like a tacky, old fashioned product.

Compare with how american sport engages with its TV audience. Its not all about money either, its about treating the viewer as an intelligent adult.

[Big Ed]

I think the lack of constructive criticism / review hurts our game in Scotland.
The only real media input (apart from high profile - i.e. Old firm) is sportscene tucked away on a Sunday night and offering little other than sanitised sound bites from "media monkeys".

What we need is a TV programme that analyses every game and the contentious issues in it SO WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM.
It would act to police trends in our game, like simulation, inconsitent refereeing and player awareness of the rules. They have it in the US and in Italy for their sports. Some creative initiative from our media moguls and a budget to support it and we would see a positive input to the beautiful game in Scotland.

Thoughts?

I agree 100%. I believe that a lack of frank discussion harms our game, because it encourages us to tolerate the status quo. Pundits sitting in a studio cracking lame gags is a tedious distraction.
Radio Scotland had a couple of regular midweek shows last season which involved a bit of insight, but sadly these are no longer broadcast.

[Hibercelona]

Like what was said already, a foul isn't a foul when the ref doesn't blow his whistle.

The powers that be have created a situation where referee's can more or less do whatever they deem fit, without the risk of receiving any criticism for it.

They're like gangsters. They can do whatever they want and nobody is aloud to question it.

[Johnny0762]

From our vantage point at the game we couldn't see the arm raised into Hanlon for the first goal, but having just watched the highlights it's a clear foul, and a booking for leading with the swinging arm.

[Sir David Gray]

Given the decision not to hand out a red card to Alan Maybury after a shocking tackle and also not to award a penalty against James McPake after a blatant handball, I don't think we should really be criticising the officials after yesterday.

Yes Vernon was quite physical with Hanlon in the lead up to their first goal but, in my opinion, it was nothing outrageous and, as a manager, I would expect my centre half to be a whole lot stronger in those situations.

Hanlon was far too weak and passive in that instance and we got exactly what we deserved in that passage of play.

[Johnny0762]

Given the decision not to hand out a red card to Alan Maybury after a shocking tackle and also not to award a penalty against James McPake after a blatant handball, I don't think we should really be criticising the officials after yesterday.

Yes Vernon was quite physical with Hanlon in the lead up to their first goal but, in my opinion, it was nothing outrageous and, as a manager, I would expect my centre half to be a whole lot stronger in those situations.

Hanlon was far too weak and passive in that instance and we got exactly what we deserved in that passage of play.

Heh Falkirk, you just criticised the officials yourself, LOL.

I kind of agree that Hanlon is weak, and naive, but the arm was in his throat. How can you deal with that?

[Sir David Gray]

Heh Falkirk, you just criticised the officials yourself, LOL.

I kind of agree that Hanlon is weak, and naive, but the arm was in his throat. How can you deal with that?

I would like to see my centre half getting in there first and taking the initiative as far as physical presence and dominating the opponent are concerned.

Let the striker know who's in charge.

[Johnny0762]

I would like to see my centre half getting in there first and taking the initiative as far as physical presence and dominating the opponent are concerned.

Let the striker know who's in charge.

And we would be having a different discussion today about why Hanlon was sent off, or cost a goal from a resulting free kick.

But... I do agree with you. It's his job to stop the strikers.

[Sir David Gray]

And we would be having a different discussion today about why Hanlon was sent off, or cost a goal from a resulting free kick.

But... I do agree with you. It's his job to stop the strikers.

Why would someone be sent off for being physically strong and dominating? :confused:

[Franck Stanton]

Maybury against ICT and Hanlon yesterday were weak at crucial moments and made the mistake of looking to the ref to bail them out.


Well said that man, too often players go down under "soft" challenges looking for a foul, which, in honesty, theyy usually get. The sooner we get it into our players heads that it is a mans game and there are times the opposition will jump into you/push you/foul you and get away with it the better. Stand your ground, don't just fall over like a bairn and look at the ref to sort it out. IF Maybury [ V ICT] and Hanlon [yesterday] had been just a wee bit more robust in dealing with the challenges put into them then imo the final outcome would have been different.