Why does Fenlon seem to hate bringing on a sub??

[RoscoHibby]

First of all, small gripe about saturday, in what was otherwise an excellent performance for the 1st hour.

But why oh why didn't he change the strikers?? It was clear from about 65 mins in that young caldwell was running on empty, Doyle was blowing out his erchie as well. Caldwell even went down with cramp a few mins to go, he had kuqi stripped and ready to go in injury time, whats the point of that? (except to waste time)

With ICT pushing forward in the last part of the game, and the ball coming back at us more and more often, surely a no-brainer to take the young lad off n put kuqi on to at least hold the ball up so we can get out. Ivan eventually came on, but for me this was too late, and should've came on earlier for doyle. So could at least go long to kuqi to hold, or flick on for Ivan in behind.

Noticed this before with Pat, its not working, but steadfast refusal to change it....

Also cant believe we didn't get the win in that game. GGTTH.

[Jim44]

I agree that astute subbing is important and often necessary and Fenlon doesn't seem to have mastered the art. Having said that, I often thought some of our former managers, Hughes and Calderwood for example, used to bring on subs, almost as part of a game plan, whether they were necessary or not. It struck me that these 'unforced' changes often changed the shape of the team and resulted in our failing to hold on to a lead or running the game out for a draw.

[Hibercelona]

I felt that with 20 minutes to go and with us still with the advantage, he should have subbed off Caldwell and brought on either Stevenson or McGivern to slot into a defensive midfield role, just in front of the back 4.

Some may view it as a negative tactic, but at that stage in the game, ICT were cutting through the midfield far too easily at times.

[Greendub]

He should have hooked Ross about 75 mins for kuqi

Poor lad looked knackered

[Northernhibee]

I felt that with 20 minutes to go and with us still with the advantage, he should have subbed off Caldwell and brought on either Stevenson or McGivern to slot into a defensive midfield role, just in front of the back 4.

Some may view it as a negative tactic, but at that stage in the game, ICT were cutting through the midfield far too easily at times.

I think that when Taiwo is ready to feature for us on the bench or starting XI, it will give us more options. Deegan is our only physical midfielder and it sounds as if Taiwo is similar in that he can put a good challenge in.

Subs could well be a weakness for Pat, but all managers have their weaknesses and I'm not going to dwell on it after the improvement in commitment, work rate and responsibility on the pitch.

[EuanH78]

Maybe he just isn't confident of the subs available to him? just a thought.. Seems to know what he's doing to me.

[JimBHibees]

I think sometimes you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Honestly didnt see ICT scoring until they did as cant remember Williams having many if any saves in the second half. It was a poor goal to lose in that the ICT player turned well in the box but got too much space and no idea where the defenders were at the back post. We looked quite dangerous on the break in the second half and probably should have made it 3 before they equalised.

[Johnny0762]

Pat Fenlon is still a bit naive but I've every faith in the guy. He'll be kicking himself at not killing off a 2-0 lead. He'll learn as he makes mistakes, like every body else.

[Jonnyboy]

I reckon a change of personnel up front for the last 15/20 minutes would have helped but making subs is an art that has to be mastered and they don't always work out for the best (remember Yogi's changes at Fir Park when we led six two and drew six six?)

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

I reckon a change of personnel up front for the last 15/20 minutes would have helped but making subs is an art that has to be mastered and they don't always work out for the best (remember Yogi's changes at Fir Park when we led six two and drew six six?)

I'm laying the blame for that one squarely at the feet of the squeaky voiced eunuch we had in goals!

[mim]

Some fair points made above.

The fact is that with 20 minutes to play Butcher had introduced three fresh players and that did make a difference.

Even if PF didn't want to change things tactically, he might have freshened things up to counter these changes.

[Jonnyboy]

I'm laying the blame for that one squarely at the feet of the squeaky voiced eunuch we had in goals!

Fair point as he certainly helped the Motherwell cause :greengrin

[Vini1875]

I think his reluctance says more about the talent and fitness we have on the bench. Also sends a message to the guys on the bench that they have to do a lot more during the week to displace the guys in possesion of a starting place. We need a squad of 18-20 who are all capable of doing a job, I don't think we have that at the moment.

[LeighLoyal]

I didn't think our bench was that strong tbh. He had the best eleven on the park available and they were doing okay, maybe Kuqi could have got a run out but is he fit?

[coco22]

I agree that astute subbing is important and often necessary and Fenlon doesn't seem to have mastered the art. Having said that, I often thought some of our former managers, Hughes and Calderwood for example, used to bring on subs, almost as part of a game plan, whether they were necessary or not. It struck me that these 'unforced' changes often changed the shape of the team and resulted in our failing to hold on to a lead or running the game out for a draw.

Exactly, always dreaded the hour mark for junior and sodje on for GOC and sparky. Subs as and when required surely,fitness or tactics?

[basehibby]

First of all, small gripe about saturday, in what was otherwise an excellent performance for the 1st hour.

But why oh why didn't he change the strikers?? It was clear from about 65 mins in that young caldwell was running on empty, Doyle was blowing out his erchie as well. Caldwell even went down with cramp a few mins to go, he had kuqi stripped and ready to go in injury time, whats the point of that? (except to waste time)

With ICT pushing forward in the last part of the game, and the ball coming back at us more and more often, surely a no-brainer to take the young lad off n put kuqi on to at least hold the ball up so we can get out. Ivan eventually came on, but for me this was too late, and should've came on earlier for doyle. So could at least go long to kuqi to hold, or flick on for Ivan in behind.

Noticed this before with Pat, its not working, but steadfast refusal to change it....

Also cant believe we didn't get the win in that game. GGTTH.


I think it's a conciousness that our squad is still pretty thin - with new players lacking sharpness etc it's a bit of a gamble changing a team that's holding it's shape for fear of buggering it up maybe?!?

The point of making a sub when a game is so tight is ultimately to improve things on the pitch and gain an advantage afterall. If yer not confident of achieving that then there's little point in making the sub.

As the likes of Kuqui, Taiwo and McGivern come into contention and the young players gain more experience I imagine PF will become less reticent about ringing the changes.

[Spike Mandela]

Maybe it was simply that he thought the team was playing ok and the subs available to him wouldn't have improved our play at that time. If we held on to 2-1 would anyone have cared about subs?

Subs aren't obligatory.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Maybe it was simply that he thought the team was playing ok and the subs available to him wouldn't have improved our play at that time. If we held on to 2-1 would anyone have cared about subs?

Subs aren't obligatory.

:agree: My thoughts too Spike.

[JimBHibees]

Maybe it was simply that he thought the team was playing ok and the subs available to him wouldn't have improved our play at that time. If we held on to 2-1 would anyone have cared about subs?

Subs aren't obligatory.

Agree with that didnt think ICT were going to score as they had created next to nothing in the second half and no doubt PF thought the same. They scored a poor goal from a Hibs defensive viewpoint and subs had nothing to do with that IMO.

Sometimes subs can change things for the worse. I see someone above referencing the Pars game when Sparky and GOC were running riot then clueless took them both off for Sodje and Agogo, great move that.

[DanHFC1875]

I'm just gutted we didn't win, it looked like we were begging for the second goal. We had some good spells, an excellent save from williams in first half, outstanding goal from spoons. Should have changed it quicker and killed the game. If we get a result against dons I think we'll all agree things are going well.

[Pretty Boy]

It's easy for us fans to pontificate about subs from the stand, PF knows in depth exactly what the guys on the bench might offer.

In saying that I personally though Caldwell was spent after 70/75 minutes. Not a criticism, he played well, just an observation. If Kuqi wasn't fit enough maybe Handling or Sproule or even a defender to protect the back 4 and preserve the lead. Easy to say from the stand though. I was never a huge fan of John Collins but the guy didn't mess about when he thought something wasn't working and made subs early if he thought it needed.

PFs doing ok though and he's still learning as well. He's made a better start to this season than almost any of us expected so a wee mistake on Saturday is forgiveable.

[Northernhibee]

I'm just gutted we didn't win, it looked like we were begging for the second goal. We had some good spells, an excellent save from williams in first half, outstanding goal from spoons. Should have changed it quicker and killed the game. If we get a result against dons I think we'll all agree things are going well.

If we win against Aberdeen for at least two hours we will be t*p *f th* l**g*e....

(Although I curse teams so Aberdeen will win, and if not that draw). :flag:

[silverhibee]

I'm laying the blame for that one squarely at the feet of the squeaky voiced eunuch we had in goals!


Did Yogi not blame the strikers. :rolleyes:

[jdships]

:agree: My thoughts too Spike.

And me too :agree::greengrin:greengrin

[RoscoHibby]

Maybe it was simply that he thought the team was playing ok and the subs available to him wouldn't have improved our play at that time. If we held on to 2-1 would anyone have cared about subs?

Subs aren't obligatory.


My point is, as many have acknowledged on here, our strikers were absolutely shattered and doing nothing for the last 20, Doyle was through in a dangerous position and hit the most feeble strike ever at the keeper. Their legs had gone, understandable as they had both worked their tails off. So we had virtually no goal threat for the last quarter of the game. So thats not really playing ok? Plus, playing 'ok' never won us very many points.
And I was saying this from about 65min mark at the game, so still would've cared, as would've gave us a chance to bury them, not hold on and hope ICT continued to be toothless up front....

[JimBHibees]

Did Yogi not blame the strikers. :rolleyes:

Bet Nishy loved that scores a hat trick and still gets slated.:faf::faf::greengrin

[Jonnyboy]

Did Yogi not blame the strikers. :rolleyes:

He did indeed. Blamed the guys he took off and blamed the guys he put on. Says more about Yogi than any of the players involved :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

He did indeed. Blamed the guys he took off and blamed the guys he put on. Says more about Yogi than any of the players involved :agree:

:faf: fitba folk would have kent whit was goan oan though.

[sparkiedelpaco7]

Pat is still in the process of changing the squad to one trusts to get the job done.

At the moment it looks as though he is happy with about 12/13 of them and the rest he either doesn't want or feels they aren't ready ie. Danny Handling or new LB.

With Leigh out injured and Ross starting, that gave even less of the players he believes he can change the game to bring on.

Once Ryan and Tom are fully fit, I think you will start to see Fenlon use the subs more often

[JimBHibees]

He did indeed. Blamed the guys he took off and blamed the guys he put on. Says more about Yogi than any of the players involved :agree:

The most surreal moment of that night was Yogi after his team had blown a 4 goal lead laughing and joking with an interviewer. The vast majority of managers I would reckon would have been mortified with the game and would have found it hard to speak to anyone never mind have a laugh and a joke.

[Phil MaGlass]

Once leigh is back and one or two of the players are fit and hopefully we dont get too many injuries, I see this team settling well and getting some good results this season.
Some are saying a few of these guys were dead on their feet on saturday, but put in a great shift, the more they play, the fitter they will become, even though some of they guys have had a pre season, some havent, some have not had competitive games for a while so now the stamina is being built, PF is adding the belief and the tactis, I cant believe I´m being so positive, someone must have slipped something in ma tea this mornin. The futures bright, the futures GREENI will be happy with a point fae the Dons then 12 pts fae the next 5 games:greengrin

[whiskyhibby]

Because the squad is small and changes could lead to a QOS type scenario