Saturday-Killie bye kick-deliberate infringement. You are the ref!

[superfurryhibby]

In the first half on Saturday the Killie keeper took a bye kick where he hit a diagonal pass across the box. It was short and whilst it would have made it across the 18 yard line the recipient was going to be closed down by a HIbs player. The Killie guy was cute and he just stepped in and played the ball back to the keeper. The ref asked them to take it again.

To me that was very unfair. It was a mistake from the goalie and the Killie guy stopped trouble by deliberately playing the ball before it left the box. In my view that was unsporting (understandable though). Maybe I'm being pedantic but I feel that it should have been penalised, maybe and indirect free kick?

[Stevie Reid]

In the first half on Saturday the Killie keeper took a bye kick where he hit a diagonal pass across the box. It was short and whilst it would have made it across the 18 yard line the recipient was going to be closed down by a HIbs player. The Killie guy was cute and he just stepped in and played the ball back to the keeper. The ref asked them to take it again.

To me that was very unfair. It was a mistake from the goalie and the Killie guy stopped trouble by deliberately playing the ball before it left the box. In my view that was unsporting (understandable though). Maybe I'm being pedantic but I feel that it should have been penalised, maybe and indirect free kick?

Simply getting to take it again does seem rather unfair, certainly.

[littleplum]

Simply getting to take it again does seem rather unfair, certainly.

It might seem unfair but the referee was correct- technically the ball was never in play so he has to retake it.

[Onion]

It might seem unfair but the referee was correct- technically the ball was never in play so he has to retake it.

:agree: correct

[ballengeich]

The referee was correct. The law is that if a bye-kick hasn't left the penalty area when it's touched it must be re-taken. In my days as a fairly incompetent amateur full-back I occasionally used the tactic when I thought I'd be under pressure.

[Twa Cairpets]

It might seem unfair but the referee was correct- technically the ball was never in play so he has to retake it.

Correct - the ball wasn't in play so the only option he had was to require a re-take.

However, the referee would have the option to caution the Killie player for Unsporting Behaviour or, I suppose thinking about it, deliberately delaying the restart of play (you could look at similarly to a player standing in front of a ball at a free kick). The ball doesn't have to be in play for a cautionable action to occur.

[Stevie Reid]

It might seem unfair but the referee was correct- technically the ball was never in play so he has to retake it.

I know it is, they've done it plenty times in their recent visits to ER. Just in Saturday's case it was a disadvantage to us.

[littleplum]

Correct - the ball wasn't in play so the only option he had was to require a re-take.

However, the referee would have the option to caution the Killie player for Unsporting Behaviour or, I suppose thinking about it, deliberately delaying the restart of play (you could look at similarly to a player standing in front of a ball at a free kick). The ball doesn't have to be in play for a cautionable action to occur.

I suppose. In terms of 'delaying the restart of play' if it was being done to deliberately waste time then fair enough but I don't think that would have been appropriate in this case. In terms of 'unsporting behaviour' then I think a team has the right to change their mind before the ball has re-entered play. I've seen it happen a few times (usually kids unaware of the rule) but never seen anyone cautioned for it.

[superfurryhibby]

Correct - the ball wasn't in play so the only option he had was to require a re-take.

However, the referee would have the option to caution the Killie player for Unsporting Behaviour or, I suppose thinking about it, deliberately delaying the restart of play (you could look at similarly to a player standing in front of a ball at a free kick). The ball doesn't have to be in play for a cautionable action to occur.

I think a booking would have been in order and at least given a disincentive not to do it again.

[Hibby Bairn]

Yellow card. Penalty to Hibs. :agree:

[danhibees1875]

Yellow card. Penalty to Hibs. :agree:

Straight red, 2 penalties - but one has to be taken by our keeper. :agree:

[Twa Cairpets]

I suppose. In terms of 'delaying the restart of play' if it was being done to deliberately waste time then fair enough but I don't think that would have been appropriate in this case. In terms of 'unsporting behaviour' then I think a team has the right to change their mind before the ball has re-entered play. I've seen it happen a few times (usually kids unaware of the rule) but never seen anyone cautioned for it.

A team doesnt have a right to change their mind as such. once the ball has started moving, it is very clear that they have made a decision to start the game. It wouldnt be related to timewasting in this instance, it would be related to denying the opportunity to the other team to have an advantage. If its kids not doing it as they dont really get it, then an explanation is in order. If its a pro, I think they should be cautioned.

[Treadstone]

What is the point of this rule ? This should have been discarded at the same time as the passback rule was introduced (1992) .
And while i am here get rid of the 6yd box , take goal kicks from anywhere in the 18yd box .
Corner flags ? Why ? The only reason they seem to be there is to obstruct the taker !

[ALF TUPPER]

:agree: correct

Fraid so ................ the ref got that one right. Not many right enough :rolleyes:

[littleplum]

A team doesnt have a right to change their mind as such. once the ball has started moving, it is very clear that they have made a decision to start the game. It wouldnt be related to timewasting in this instance, it would be related to denying the opportunity to the other team to have an advantage. If its kids not doing it as they dont really get it, then an explanation is in order. If its a pro, I think they should be cautioned.

I disagree. If the lawmakers wanted this to be punished they could easily amend the law and make it an offence punishable by an indirect free kick.

We can discuss the technicalities and potential justification for a caution and you make a fair enough argument but surely consistency is important and, as I said, I've never seen a caution for this. I remember when I did my ref training we went through all sorts of crazy scenarios (eg what happens on a windy day if the goalie kicks it but it blows back into his goal before it leaves the penalty area) and at no point were we advised or encouraged to caution. If a referee one day suddenly decided to issue the first yellow card for this against Hibs I know I'd be raging.

[HibeesLA]

What is the point of this rule ? This should have been discarded at the same time as the passback rule was introduced (1992) .
And while i am here get rid of the 6yd box , take goal kicks from anywhere in the 18yd box .
Corner flags ? Why ? The only reason they seem to be there is to obstruct the taker !

Corner flags are there to assists the referees in determining where the ball crossed the line.

[Twa Cairpets]

I disagree. If the lawmakers wanted this to be punished they could easily amend the law and make it an offence punishable by an indirect free kick.

We can discuss the technicalities and potential justification for a caution and you make a fair enough argument but surely consistency is important and, as I said, I've never seen a caution for this. I remember when I did my ref training we went through all sorts of crazy scenarios (eg what happens on a windy day if the goalie kicks it but it blows back into his goal before it leaves the penalty area) and at no point were we advised or encouraged to caution. If a referee one day suddenly decided to issue the first yellow card for this against Hibs I know I'd be raging.

Not disputing they could change it, but they havent.

As for cautioning, it's one where the ref could, but probably won't unless it was ludicrously blatant. I've reffed games where its happened and havent booked the player. (I would if they did it again as that would be taking the Lillian). So you could say the refs are being consistent as they dont book players fo rit now (althoguh maybe they should).

[superfurryhibby]

Not disputing they could change it, but they havent.

As for cautioning, it's one where the ref could, but probably won't unless it was ludicrously blatant. I've reffed games where its happened and havent booked the player. (I would if they did it again as that would be taking the Lillian). So you could say the refs are being consistent as they dont book players fo rit now (althoguh maybe they should).


The Killie one on Saturday was blatant and smart play on the part of the defender. They came very close to doing it again in the second and if I remember rightly, the ball was played back to the keeper smartish, who then punted it.

I guess discretion is required but I would make the distinction where there is risk to the defence by letting the ball enter play and where it's simply a case of an impatient defender who cannae wait until the ball is technically in play, with no obvious risk involved.

Maybe the reaction to Cairney's penalty has enhanced my discontent with Killie and their obvious gamesmanship around the bye kick issue but in my view this was deliberate cheating on their part

[littleplum]

I suppose it depends where you view the dividing line between smart thinking and gamesmanship. Personally, I don't mind a team changing their mind before the ball's back in play and if the IFAB thought it was wrong then they would penalise it with an indirect free kick.

Genuine question- are there any other scenarios where we'd expect a player to be cautioned for something that isn't punishable by a free kick or wastes time but is deemed to be unsporting? I suppose goal celebrations but there's guidance from the IFAB and other authorities on that.

[Treadstone]

Corner flags are there to assists the referees in determining where the ball crossed the line.

I know that would seem to be the perception of why they are there , but is there proof to say they are needed and help ? What if a ball goes out over the flag ? Then they just guess . A flag can obstuct the taker which hinders the team that should benefit from the original decision .

[vanNISHtelroy]

We've also got caught out with this a couple of times at home this year cos our players are too stupid to wait for the ball to come to them and its slowed the game down when we're trying to quickly restart the game.

Not sure if our centrebacks would be clever enough to do it deliberately :wink:

[HibsMax]

What would have happened if a Hibs player ran in the box and tried to score a goal? Would the ref have just blown his whistle and ask for the bye kick to be taken again?

[mim]

What would have happened if a Hibs player ran in the box and tried to score a goal? Would the ref have just blown his whistle and ask for the bye kick to be taken again?

Yes. The ball is not in play.

[Twa Cairpets]

I know that would seem to be the perception of why they are there , but is there proof to say they are needed and help ? What if a ball goes out over the flag ? Then they just guess . A flag can obstuct the taker which hinders the team that should benefit from the original decision .

They are needed and they are of help.

Strictly speaking, a ref shouldn't start a game without them, but often (for school games played on astro in particular) they're not there and it can be a bugger.

If you're on a council grass pitch, especially one where the lines might not be as pristine as they are at ER, they're invaluable in making a call.

Edit - it only hinders a taker if they're too stupid to know what side to place the ball in the arc relative to their run up.

[Twa Cairpets]

I suppose it depends where you view the dividing line between smart thinking and gamesmanship. Personally, I don't mind a team changing their mind before the ball's back in play and if the IFAB thought it was wrong then they would penalise it with an indirect free kick.

Genuine question- are there any other scenarios where we'd expect a player to be cautioned for something that isn't punishable by a free kick or wastes time but is deemed to be unsporting? I suppose goal celebrations but there's guidance from the IFAB and other authorities on that.

Good question.

A substitute warming up behind the goals shouting to put off a keeper at a corner maybe?

[Jonnyboy]

Killie do that a lot. Someone ought to time it and complain :wink:

[StevieT]

They are needed and they are of help.

Strictly speaking, a ref shouldn't start a game without them, but often (for school games played on astro in particular) they're not there and it can be a bugger.

If you're on a council grass pitch, especially one where the lines might not be as pristine as they are at ER, they're invaluable in making a call.

Edit - it only hinders a taker if they're too stupid to know what side to place the ball in the arc relative to their run up.

I refereed a match where a player hadn't a clue where to place the ball for a corner and always put it in the wrong place when taking a corner from the left. He couldn't work out what wa going wrong but at under 16 he should have known better. His coach took him to the corner flag at half time to sort it out.

I agree that flags do help. Especially a long punt into the corner.

[MB62]

In the first half on Saturday the Killie keeper took a bye kick where he hit a diagonal pass across the box. It was short and whilst it would have made it across the 18 yard line the recipient was going to be closed down by a HIbs player. The Killie guy was cute and he just stepped in and played the ball back to the keeper. The ref asked them to take it again.

To me that was very unfair. It was a mistake from the goalie and the Killie guy stopped trouble by deliberately playing the ball before it left the box. In my view that was unsporting (understandable though). Maybe I'm being pedantic but I feel that it should have been penalised, maybe and indirect free kick?

Did this not happen again later in the game?
I said exactly the same thing as yourself at the time. The Killie player didn't break any laws of the game but clearly gained an advantage and it is a bad law that needs changed. If a player chooses to play the ball before it has came outside the box then an indirect free-kick should be awarded to the opposition in this instance, or just scrap it altogether as I don't really see what the point of it is, what is it meant to achieve?