Hillsborough Report

[Frazerbob]

Currently being discussed in the House of Commons. I have to say, David Cameron spoke very well. Could today see the justice that has been sought for 23 years?

[Onion]

Currently being discussed in the House of Commons. I have to say, David Cameron spoke very well. Could today see the justice that has been sought for 23 years?

Shocking and deeply depressing. Hopefully at last the families and the people of Liverpool can start the road to recovery from the tragedy and subsequent injustice.

The police, emergency services, journalists and coroner involved should hang their heads in shame.

[PatHead]

Currently being discussed in the House of Commons. I have to say, David Cameron spoke very well. Could today see the justice that has been sought for 23 years?

Not today but maybe a step in the right direction to see the Police Commander charged with perjury, other officers who lied getting stripped of their pensions and being named and shamed and the Sun print a retraction. Whoever allowed the game to be played at Hillsborough and the Sheffield Wednesday board, Chairman and Councillors should also be held to account as the ground didn't even have a safety certificate.

I doubt full justice will ever be served though and really feel for anyone who lost their loved ones going to a football match.

[VickMackie]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

[Stevie Reid]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

That is easily the most misguided and misinformed post I have ever read on this board. 'People need to get a grip and move on'? I honestly cannot believe what I have just read - what exactly do you think all these people have been trying to do for more than 20 years?

Have a read of this - you'll see what the victims' families are after: -

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

[Pretty Boy]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

What do people want from the Hillsborough story?

The truth and closure.

[Betty Boop]

Institutional deceit at the highest level.

[jacomo]

Institutional deceit at the highest level.

There is surely a case for individuals to be prosecuted over this? Is deliberately misleading a coroner's inquest a criminal offence?

[VickMackie]

That is easily the most misguided and misinformed post I have ever read on this board. 'People need to get a grip and move on'? I honestly cannot believe what I have just read - what exactly do you think all these people have been trying to do for more than 20 years?

Have a read of this - you'll see what the victims' families are after: -

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

So they're after someone To admit mistakes?

The overiding emotion from the article is clear. It goes on to slate the state of the stadium on the day but doesn't criticise the club for their outdated and dangerous turnstiles.

It's clear to everyone that mistakes were made and someone should be held accountable but how long will this go on? Another 10, 20, 40 years?

[Killiehibbie]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.What do people want? I'd imagine the families would like to hear the truth and see criminal charges brought against those who neglected their duty and lied to cover it up. It looked obvious to me what was happening as I watched it on TV at the time, if the policeman in charge had any sense lives would've been saved.

[lucky]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

The most stupid posting I have ever seen on this board. 96 football fans died unnecessary which was covered up by the police and successive governments. 164 police officers changed their statements to cover up their mistakes. I hope that the admins launch you from this site for your ridiculous post. You actually disgust me with your lack of understanding on this subject. I don't normally insult posters but you have crossed the line

[Stevie Reid]

So they're after someone To admit mistakes?

The overiding emotion from the article is clear. It goes on to slate the state of the stadium on the day but doesn't criticise the club for their outdated and dangerous turnstiles.

It's clear to everyone that mistakes were made and someone should be held accountable but how long will this go on? Another 10, 20, 40 years?

Again, I'm completely taken aback at your stance here.

[Future17]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

Pretty poor from you.

I'm fairly certain that if you were in the shoes of the families, you would be every bit as angry and upset as they are.

If we allow gross crimes, like those relating to Hillsborough, to go uninvestigated and those responsible to go unpunished, the same crimes will continue to claims innocent lives. Next time it could be you or your family.

[VickMackie]

If criminal charges are brought it won't change a lot. It's clear that everyone knows what happened.

If it reaches that point and families get closure then great. I'm sure all the energy and emotion put into the justice for the 96 campaign over the last 20+ years has taken a lot out of the extended families so hopefully they can get closure.

[VickMackie]

Pretty poor from you.

I'm fairly certain that if you were in the shoes of the families, you would be every bit as angry and upset as they are.

If we allow gross crimes, like those relating to Hillsborough, to go uninvestigated and those responsible to go unpunished, the same crimes will continue to claims innocent lives. Next time it could be you or your family.

It's clear to me thought that it has been investigated, the police have become a lot more transparent and football safety has greatly improved.

It doesn't seem to me this is about making things safer or better anymore. It seems to me that the main aim is to identify and punish everyone involved, and rightly so, but a lot of people's lives have been spent chasing this.

I'm not sure I can fully articulate what I mean on this subject so i think I'll leave it there....

[LancashireHibby]

It's clear that everyone knows what happened.
An 800 page report and over 100 changed accounts from the police would suggest otherwise.

[PatHead]

It's clear to me thought that it has been investigated, the police have become a lot more transparent and football safety has greatly improved.

It doesn't seem to me this is about making things safer or better anymore. It seems to me that the main aim is to identify and punish everyone involved, and rightly so, but a lot of people's lives have been spent chasing this.

I'm not sure I can fully articulate what I mean on this subject so i think I'll leave it there....

Glad you can walk away after making the most crass, insensitive and uninformed posts I have ever read on the internet far less on this site.

I hope you take time to reflect on what you have said, read up on the subject and then come on here apologising for being such an .

[Hibiza]

Polis caught.

[cam75]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

Brutal 98 people loose there life's and you spew bile FFS

[andudare2]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.are you for real???????????????????

[andudare2]

So they're after someone To admit mistakes?

The overiding emotion from the article is clear. It goes on to slate the state of the stadium on the day but doesn't criticise the club for their outdated and dangerous turnstiles.

It's clear to everyone that mistakes were made and someone should be held accountable but how long will this go on? Another 10, 20, 40 years?would most likely have been swept under the carpet ,if everyone had your attitude .thank **** they dont.

[Frazerbob]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.


And here we have the very reason that people have fought for 23 years to get to the truth and reveal the lies, cover-ups and criminal behaviour of senior police, media (especially the Sun), politicians and after today's revelations, the ambulance service.

So many people have no idea what actually happened, have no idea who is actually to blame and spout utter nonsense as a result. That is the extent of the damage the Sun report done. Still people believe the lies. I really hope that idiots such as yourself take the time to watch tonight's news, read tomorrows press and educate themselves. I have been watching Sky News for the last few hours and it is staggering, even for somebody who has read various books on the subject. JFT96 have been 100% vindicated today and I really hope they now go for criminal prosecutions for those who made the wrong decisions then systematically lied to cover their own *****. Jail sentences, loss of pensions etc is the least that should result.

Christ, Even Kelvin McKenzie has just issued an appology.

[hibsbollah]

If criminal charges are brought it won't change a lot. It's clear that everyone knows what happened.

If it reaches that point and families get closure then great. I'm sure all the energy and emotion put into the justice for the 96 campaign over the last 20+ years has taken a lot out of the extended families so hopefully they can get closure.

Your logic is out in so many places I don't know where to start. There are probably MILLIONS of people who still connect Hillsborough with pissed up football fans, thanks to Kelvin McKenzie. And there's still those that believed the flawed coroners findings, which wasn't permitted to examine anything of relevance (iebefore 3:15pm when the police actions that caused many of the deaths took place).

'Criminal charges won't change a lot'. I don't even know what this means :dunno: You could use that line to argue against any criminal conviction anytime anywhere from the Nuremberg Trials to a speeding fine. And 'closure' is the most meaningless, banal, nonsense 21st century psychobabble nonsense word ever invented, which has just annoyed me even more than the body of your post. It's not 'closure' that's important, it's JUSTICE.

But congratulations for one of the worst posts I've ever read on here anyway :aok:

[andudare2]

It's clear to me thought that it has been investigated, the police have become a lot more transparent and football safety has greatly improved.

It doesn't seem to me this is about making things safer or better anymore. It seems to me that the main aim is to identify and punish everyone involved, and rightly so, but a lot of people's lives have been spent chasing this.

I'm not sure I can fully articulate what I mean on this subject so i think I'll leave it there....think you should have put your brain in gear before first comment,never mind rest of them.you a bizzy by any chance?

[frazeHFC]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.



Try telling the families that. They got killed due to the poor safety etc etc, and the police tried to blame the fans? I for one would be after justice.

[Killiehibbie]

Press conference on Radio 5 right now might explain what the families want to those who don't know. mckenzie has even apologised for his Truth headline saying LIES would've been more appropriate now that he knows all that went on that day.

[Dashing Bob S]

Glad you can walk away after making the most crass, insensitive and uninformed posts I have ever read on the internet far less on this site.

I hope you take time to reflect on what you have said, read up on the subject and then come on here apologising for being such an .

:top marks

[Frazerbob]

Press conference on Radio 5 right now might explain what the families want to those who don't know. mckenzie has even apologised for his Truth headline saying LIES would've been more appropriate now that he knows all that went on that day.

He's known for about 23 years that his paper published lies.

[Dashing Bob S]

Your logic is out in so many places I don't know where to start. There are probably MILLIONS of people who still connect Hillsborough with pissed up football fans, thanks to Kelvin McKenzie. And there's still those that believed the flawed coroners findings, which wasn't permitted to examine anything of relevance (iebefore 3:15pm when the police actions that caused many of the deaths took place).

'Criminal charges won't change a lot'. I don't even know what this means :dunno: You could use that line to argue against any criminal conviction anytime anywhere from the Nuremberg Trials to a speeding fine. And 'closure' is the most meaningless, banal, nonsense 21st century psychobabble nonsense word ever invented, which has just annoyed me even more than the body of your post. It's not 'closure' that's important, it's JUSTICE.

But congratulations for one of the worst posts I've ever read on here anyway :aok:

:top marks

Another great response to possibly the most dim-witted post (by an obviously not imbecilic person) in the history of the internet.

[Killiehibbie]

Has it ever been verified that Thatcher had a meeting with South Yorkshire Chief Constable the day after? If this meeting did take place she should be in the dock.

[hibsbollah]

I'm just reading the report now, and although most of it has been suspected or alleged by the Justice group before, the new finding which absolutely blows me away with sheer disgust and revulsion is...

"Police officers carried out Police National Computer Checks on those who had died "in an attempt to impugn the reputations of the deceased" (BBC News site).

...Which says it all really.

[Pretty Boy]

Press conference on Radio 5 right now might explain what the families want to those who don't know. mckenzie has even apologised for his Truth headline saying LIES would've been more appropriate now that he knows all that went on that day.

McKenzie is a ****ing snake. Lower than the skid marks in a public toilet.

The fact he's treated as some kind of celebrity nowadays infuriates me. An absolute complete utter ****bag of the highest order.

[lucky]

John Bishop on Talksport just rubbished McKenzies apology and called for him to be made media pariah. For me that's not far enough he should be held to account for his lies against the 96 and all other football fans. Truth has been outed now time for justice
#dontbuythesun

[Pretty Boy]

John Bishop on Talksport just rubbished McKenzies apology and called for him to be made media pariah. For me that's not far enough he should be held to account for his lies against the 96 and all other football fans. Truth has been outed now time for justice
#dontbuythesun

McKenzie has flip flopped on this issue many times before. His apology today is no different.

He's a ****.

[Killiehibbie]

McKenzie is a ****ing snake. Lower than the skid marks in a public toilet.

The fact he's treated as some kind of celebrity nowadays infuriates me. An absolute complete utter ****bag of the highest order.A spokesman said of the families rejection of his apology "One feels like sticking ones finger in the air and telling that awful man to swivel on it"

[Hibbie_Cameron]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

In over 10 years on this site, this is by far the worst post I have ever read

[JimBHibees]

Personally thought this was a pretty despicable comment by the current Chief Constable of South Yorkshire.

1537: Chief Constable David Crompton says the police statements were amended after officers sought "independent legal advice". He adds that "people thought it was the right course of action at the time" but concedes time has shown it was not.

So people thought lying and changing the truth on the day that 96 people died was the right thing to do. Away and do one.

Apparently 41 of the 96 had the potential to be saved after 3.15 if a swifter response had taken place.

It is simply the most despicable cover up ever and the fact it has taken 23 years for the truth to finally come out says it all about the power certain organisations feel they have in society.

[Barney McGrew]

It doesn't seem to me this is about making things safer or better anymore. It seems to me that the main aim is to identify and punish everyone involved, and rightly so, but a lot of people's lives have been spent chasing this...

And rightly so. If someone close to me had died because of the mistakes that were made that day, and I thought there had been a mass coverup orchestrated by those in the highest levels of authority in this country then you can be damn sure I'd want the truth and those responsible held accountable, no matter how long it took.

96 people didn't go home that night after going to see their football team. It could have been you, it could have been me, it could have been any football supporter. And not only did their families and friends have to put up with losing them, they also had the abhorrent situation where the dead were being blamed for what happened.

Todays statements should at least put to bed any misconceptions that people have that those football fans were anything other than innocent. I'm glad the truth has finally come out officially and I'm glad those people campaigning for justice didn't stop their quest for one day.

I can't comprehend anyone who would think otherwise.

[Scouse Hibee]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

I could hardly contain my anger after reading this post, if you have nothing constructive to say then please don't bother commenting any further on this subject.

The sarcasm of "Liverpool always the victims never to blame" used many times over the last twenty odd years including by some on here will hopefully be used no more!

[Hibbyradge]

164 police statements altered.

Fans and alcohol blamed for Hillsborough but they weren't at fault.

Disgrace.

[--------]

There is surely a case for individuals to be prosecuted over this? Is deliberately misleading a coroner's inquest a criminal offence?

It is. It's perjury, and if the case concerned goes to a criminal trial, could be construed as perverting the course of justice.


:top marks

Amen, Bob. Add me to the list.



I'm just reading the report now, and although most of it has been suspected or alleged by the Justice group before, the new finding which absolutely blows me away with sheer disgust and revulsion is...

"Police officers carried out Police National Computer Checks on those who had died "in an attempt to impugn the reputations of the deceased" (BBC News site).

...Which says it all really.

Now why would they do that - unless they knew right at the time that the Match Commander and every police officer involved was guilty as sin?

I watched the events unfolding at the time, and it was obvious to me that first, there was no hooliganism involved, simply a lethal crush in an inadequately designed enclosure, and second, that simply opening the gates in the perimeter fence would have saved some lives immediately. Police officers were standing on the run-off area behind the goal-line callously watching people asphyxiate in front of them. Spectators from other areas of the ground were trying to help, and the police were impeding them. St John's Ambulance Brigade members were also prevented from giving immediate first-aid. IIRC when the ambulances finally arrived, the police obstructed them from coming onto the pitch as well at first.

The knee-jerk reaction of far too many of the public, even people who ought to have known better, was that the fans involved must have been drunk and looking for trouble. The police encouraged this by lying to the press and TV, doing everything they could to slander the reputations of the Liverpool fans dead and surviving, and then perjuring themselves to the coroner's inquest.

The attitude of the police, the media, and the legal and political establishment was that the dead were 'only' football fans, who probably had 'brought it all on themselves' by drunkenness and hooligan behaviour - which absolutely was not true - and that nearly 100 Liverpool fans, men, women, AND CHILDREN, would best be swept under the carpet and forgotten about.

Sadly, like so many 'public enquiries' in this country, this probably isn't REALLY an effort to discover and make public the truth, but more likely a whitewash job - a few crocodile tears from low-life like Mackenzie and whoever runs South Yorkshire Police these days, some hypocrisy from various MPs and Cabinet ministers, and an 'as you were' as soon as the dust has settled under the carpet.

[21.05.2016]

After a long, hard fought battle by the Liverpool fans and the families of victims, finally justice has been done and the truth is released. The 96 can at long last, rest in peace and the innocent fans who have had there name blackened for years are cleared. Absolutely disgusting that the liverpool fans and the families of the victims have had to wait this long and sickening that they were blamed for the death of their own.

A horrific event and very sad to think that so many lives could have been saved if better measures had been carried out.

RIP to the 96 and all credit to the Liverpool fans and families of victims who tirelessly continued to fight for what was right - the truth!

[21.05.2016]

McKenzie is a ****ing snake. Lower than the skid marks in a public toilet.

The fact he's treated as some kind of celebrity nowadays infuriates me. An absolute complete utter ****bag of the highest order.

:agree: How any human being could print such venomous, disgusting lies after such a horrific tragedy, when there was so much pain and grief, is unbelievable. The lowest of the low and I certainly don't blame the Liverpool supporters for not accepting his apology, too little too late!

I believe his words in 2006 were along the lines of "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now"

[superfurryhibby]

Liverpool Walton Labour MP Steve Rotheram: "Finally, we have the undeniable truth. The truth that many innocent people could, and should have been saved. A truth that unequivocally confirms that Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster and that drink was not a significant factor."

Not bothered so much about all seater stadia and the banning of drink. What is really tragic is that Hillsborough was known to be a potential death trap and nobody did anything about it. 96 innocent folk died needlessly.

[B]Chief Constable David Crompton, South Yorkshire Police: "Chief Constable apologises to families of the 96 on 15 April 1989, 96 of the Liverpool fans went to Hillsborough to watch the FA Cup semi final and died as a result of the Disaster. On that day South Yorkshire Police failed the victims and families. The police lost control. In the immediate aftermath senior officers sought to change the record of events. Disgraceful lies were told which blamed the Liverpool fans for the disaster. Statements were altered which sought to minimise police blame. These actions have caused untold pain and distress for over 23 years. I am profoundly sorry for the way the force failed on 15 April 1989 and I am doubly sorry for the injustice that followed and I apologise to the families of the 96 and Liverpool fans. South Yorkshire Police is a very different place in 2012 from what it was 23 years ago and we will be fully open and transparent in helping to find answers to the questions posed by the Panel today."[/

In light of these findings can we expect anyone from the authorities to be held accountable. Another establishment cover up!

[Twa Cairpets]

In light of these findings can we expect anyone from the authorities to be held accountable. Another establishment cover up!

Surely in the light of these findings it is more likely that people will be held accountable, not less? I dont see where you cam get the concept of cover up now that the cover up has been acknowledged and exposed?

[vercol36]

So they're after someone To admit mistakes?

The overiding emotion from the article is clear. It goes on to slate the state of the stadium on the day but doesn't criticise the club for their outdated and dangerous turnstiles.

It's clear to everyone that mistakes were made and someone should be held accountable but how long will this go on? Another 10, 20, 40 years?


It doesn't matter how long it takes, you absolute coward.

[Frazerbob]

Is it true tha MacKenzie released his "appology" at exactly 3.06pm? What a despicable human being!

[Onion]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

One of the most ignorant and crass post I've read on Hibs.net.

[wazoo1875]

I'm just reading the report now, and although most of it has been suspected or alleged by the Justice group before, the new finding which absolutely blows me away with sheer disgust and revulsion is...

"Police officers carried out Police National Computer Checks on those who had died "in an attempt to impugn the reputations of the deceased" (BBC News site).

...Which says it all really.

This was the bit that had me reeling too. Absolutely heinous!
How these people can look themselves in the mirror everyday knowing some of the lies they told and the acts they committed is beyond me.
They should all be taken to task over it and custodial sentences should be meted out to those deserving of one.

[Just Alf]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

Sigh..... The inhumanity of some people never ceases to amaze me.... Are you really saying that any wrong doers should get off Scott free just because it's been a wee while?

[Aldo]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

What a total and utter ignoramuse. Your not really a football fan are you. It was easy to blame the fans but it's irrelevant. Justice will be done and the people responsible will and should be brought to justice and rightly so.

The families of those who died that day can now have some piece of mind that the facts are out.
Little I know but there is a chance they can get some sort of closure, not the fans fault and now move on to seek justice for their loved ones.

If statements have been changed then that's perverting the course of justice and it's jail time.

I would sue the polis as well as I don't think it would be difficult to prove neglect on their part.

VM if you continue to post as you have you find yourself getting it tight (and rightly do)

Engage brain first before scripting such ****.

[VickMackie]

Ok. I accept criticism of my post and apologise to anyone offended but to call my post one of the most offensive things ever written on this site, or the Internet, is ridiculous.

As far as I can see nothing has changed after today's events although I appreciate acceptance that things went wrong were a major milestone for families involved. No one has been held accountable for actions on that day.

[Wembley67]

Ok. I accept criticism of my post and apologise to anyone offended but to call my post one of the most offensive things ever written on this site, or the Internet, is ridiculous.

As far as I can see nothing has changed after today's events although I appreciate acceptance that things went wrong were a major milestone for families involved. No one has been held accountable for actions on that day.

A lot has changed as it has been proven that various parties lied in the aftermath...I really think you should read up on events that have unfolded today.

[21.05.2016]

Is it true tha MacKenzie released his "appology" at exactly 3.06pm? What a despicable human being!

Heard something about this earlier actually, if true then as much as I hate him, I cant see it being deliberate TBH. Never the less still a vile, poisonous, disgraceful human being who should be hanging his head in shame instead of being bold as brass, in the public eye all the time!

[VickMackie]

A lot has changed as it has been proven that various parties lied in the aftermath...I really think you should read up on events that have unfolded today.

I did read the updates from today and it confirmed things that have been said for a number of years. In the grand scheme of things nothing has changed unless they're looking to base future prosecutions on the findings.

That will lead to years more of people's lives being spent going after people.

Out of interest, does anyone know how many of the families of the 96 are still actively involved in the campaign? Are all of the families still involved or just some?

[Www1875hfc]

Sky 429.

LiverpoolFCTV Live just now.

[Just_Jimmy]

I did read the updates from today and it confirmed things that have been said for a number of years. In the grand scheme of things nothing has changed unless they're looking to base future prosecutions on the findings.

That will lead to years more of people's lives being spent going after people.

Out of interest, does anyone know how many of the families of the 96 are still actively involved in the campaign? Are all of the families still involved or just some?

If somethings worth doing, it's worth doing right. Time doesn't matter if justice is served. Even if only one person is still involved its a fight worth winning.

"Justice is the truth in action" - disraeli

[hibee1875]

I did read the updates from today and it confirmed things that have been said for a number of years. In the grand scheme of things nothing has changed unless they're looking to base future prosecutions on the findings.

That will lead to years more of people's lives being spent going after people.

Out of interest, does anyone know how many of the families of the 96 are still actively involved in the campaign? Are all of the families still involved or just some?

FFS

Stop talking and do one eh?!

In the grand scheme of things EVERYTHING has changed. It has been officially recognised that there has been criminal injustice.

After truth must come justice. After justice can come peace.

[Allant1981]

I did read the updates from today and it confirmed things that have been said for a number of years. In the grand scheme of things nothing has changed unless they're looking to base future prosecutions on the findings.

That will lead to years more of people's lives being spent going after people.

Out of interest, does anyone know how many of the families of the 96 are still actively involved in the campaign? Are all of the families still involved or just some?

Who cares how long it takes? As long as the people who are guilty of the balls up that day are punished, you really have made yourself sound like a twat on this thread

[Aldo]

I'll say this... EVERYONE involved in this should be brought to justice not just one person. There will be a few Squeeky bums and for me there should be jail time involved.. Regardless if their ages.

Once Everyone has been traced and dealt with in the appropriate manner then the families of those who died can have some sort if closure.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I had the gross misfortune to be there that day, not a pleasant experience to say the least. Being 0 3 down to Celtic at Hampden after 20 mins the next day was certainly put into perspective, that day at Hampden completely passed me by.

[Hibs On Tour]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

As others have correctly pointed out already, quite possibly the most callous, ignorant and plain disgusting post I've ever seen on hibs.net

"Get a grip and move on" - are people who lost loved ones over-reacting then at having had to wait 23 years for the truth to officially come out? Should they have just given up after 10 years, 20 years? Yes, we want people to admit their mistakes but given that they haven't done so in 23 years we'll have to settle for [hopefully] these being proven in a new inquest and [hopefully] in a court of law where the people who failed in their duty of care to the public and then deplorably lied about it can be punished for their crimes. I very much doubt that the "similarities" and destruction of "countless other lives" you refer to would go so far as to include the lives of 96 people being lost, particularly when it appears 41 of these poor souls may have had a chance to be saved.

Today was merely about the truth that most people have known about since then being officially recognised, which merely opens the door to the possibility of justice being served, albeit belatedly.

You however should have your computer taken away from you and out of harms reach until you can display some intelligence and common sense and perhaps a modicum of dignity... :bitchy:

[Greenblood70]

It's difficult in the sanitised environment that football exists in now to recall the prevailing attitudes towards football supporters at the time of Hillsborough from the authorities, government and the clubs themselves often. When you frame the events in the time they happened it really hits home that it could have been any teams fans really that went through those horrific events. You were treated as the enemy within by a govt who detested the football fans of the time and gave the authorities carte blanche to do what they liked (and believe me they did). Don't get me wrong we weren't all angels but many innocent people were tarred with the "all fans are hooligans" mantra of the authorities at the time.

I hope and pray that today gives the families of the 96 some solace, in finally getting to the truth of the events. I think their persistance and dignity throughout has been the very antithesis of those vermin who attempted to besmirch and soil the memory of their loved ones. It shows how far society in general and football has come that these events seem from an almost alien time, which I suppose brings me back to where I started. IMO the people responsible for this disgusting cover up should be made to answer for their crimes..how they've carried on with their lives after doing what they did I'll never understand.

[ronaldo7]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

The report today is only the starting point as the truth is now out. You should download it and give it a good read before coming back with further comment.

Some points from the report.

In the 394-page report the panel has shed new light on the disaster, including:

• Police carried out criminal record checks on the deceased in an attempt to "impugn their reputations"

• Senior officers privately discussed the "animalistic behaviour" of "drunken marauding fans"

• Evidence that a number of the dead survived "for a significant period" beyond the 3.15pm cut-off point imposed at the original inquest

• 116 of the 164 South Yorkshire Police statements were doctored to remove unfavourable comments

[cad]

Has it ever been verified that Thatcher had a meeting with South Yorkshire Chief Constable the day after? If this meeting did take place she should be in the dock.




Thatchers thank you to the Yorkshire Police for the job they done during the miners strike was the Hillsborough cover up .

[God Petrie]

Liverpool fans have a history of not taking responsibility for their own actions so I find it hypocritical that they can expect anyone else to do the same.

[beensaidbefore]

Glad you can walk away after making the most crass, insensitive and uninformed posts I have ever read on the internet far less on this site.

I hope you take time to reflect on what you have said, read up on the subject and then come on here apologising for being such an .

I think you should get an award for the most overly dramatic post on the internet ever.

I cant speak for Vick but I dont agree that there is point in punishing every individual involved and subsequently making hundres (including families, maybe 1000s) of people suffer further from the findings.

The real questions should be, what level of pressure was put on over 100 police officers to change statements, and by whom? I dont believe they were all crooked police before hand.

What happened was a tragic, an avoidable accident, made worse for the cover up. Punish those in charge, but not the individuals forced to cover this up, as they were just pawns in the game. The families have every right to be angry and seek justice, but I think the rest of us should move on now.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Liverpool fans have a history of not taking responsibility for their own actions so I find it hypocritical that they can expect anyone else to do the same.

WOW ! Very crass , have a word with yersel.

[beensaidbefore]

As others have correctly pointed out already, quite possibly the most callous, ignorant and plain disgusting post I've ever seen on hibs.net

"Get a grip and move on" - are people who lost loved ones over-reacting then at having had to wait 23 years for the truth to officially come out? Should they have just given up after 10 years, 20 years? Yes, we want people to admit their mistakes but given that they haven't done so in 23 years we'll have to settle for [hopefully] these being proven in a new inquest and [hopefully] in a court of law where the people who failed in their duty of care to the public and then deplorably lied about it can be punished for their crimes. I very much doubt that the "similarities" and destruction of "countless other lives" you refer to would go so far as to include the lives of 96 people being lost, particularly when it appears 41 of these poor souls may have had a chance to be saved.

Today was merely about the truth that most people have known about since then being officially recognised, which merely opens the door to the possibility of justice being served, albeit belatedly.

You however should have your computer taken away from you and out of harms reach until you can display some intelligence and common sense and perhaps a modicum of dignity... :bitchy:

No. But some people on here are.

[ronaldo7]

Alterations to statements.


Review and alteration of police statements
1.241 Prior to the Stuart-Smith Scrutiny an SYP officer had revealed that in the immediate
aftermath of the disaster officers had been instructed not to make entries in pocket-books
but to submit handwritten recollections for word-processing.
55
1.242 The recollections had been sent to Peter Metcalf, a senior partner in Hammond
Suddards, the solicitors representing SYP, who returned them to Chief Superintendent
Donald Denton, with recommendations for ‘review and alteration’.
1.243 Officers were visited by members of an internally appointed SYP team and
their agreement to the alterations secured. They were expected to sign the amended
recollections as formal statements.
1.244 The statements were then passed to the WMP investigation team and to the Taylor
Inquiry who were aware of and accepted the process of review, alteration and submission.
The explanation of the process, distributed throughout SYP, was ‘to collate what evidence
SYP officers can provide their Chief Constable in order that we can provide a suitable case,
on behalf of the Force to subsequent enquiries’.
1.245 While the justification for the review and alteration of statements was the removal
of personal opinion and conjecture, it was clear that statements were also amended to
eliminate criticism of senior officers and their management of the crowd. As the extent of the
process materialised, it became a focus for the Scrutiny.


1.246 LJ Stuart-Smith recorded that, in five weeks, over 400 recollections were processed
via the solicitors. He estimated that 253 passed without comment and 60 were ‘slightly’
amended. Over 90 statements were recommended for alteration.
1.247 LJ Stuart-Smith examined ‘approximately 100 amended statements where on the
face of the comments by the solicitors something of substance might have been referred
to’. He concluded that 74 were ‘of no consequence’. From the remaining 26, ‘comment and
opinion’ had been excluded, mainly officers’ criticisms of the police operation.

SYP, South Yorkshire Police. WMP, West Midlands Police.

[Scouse Hibee]

Liverpool fans have a history of not taking responsibility for their own actions so I find it hypocritical that they can expect anyone else to do the same.


Do they? Well go on explain!

No doubt before today you would have used Hillsborough as one of your examples.

[Pretty Boy]

I think you should get an award for the most overly dramatic post on the internet ever.

I cant speak for Vick but I dont agree that there is point in punishing every individual involved and subsequently making hundres (including families, maybe 1000s) of people suffer further from the findings.

The real questions should be, what level of pressure was put on over 100 police officers to change statements, and by whom? I dont believe they were all crooked police before hand.

What happened was a tragic, an avoidable accident, made worse for the cover up. Punish those in charge, but not the individuals forced to cover this up, as they were just pawns in the game. The families have every right to be angry and seek justice, but I think the rest of us should move on now.

I was just following orders m'lud has been a defence for years and its not acceptable.

People who deliberately altered, changed or manipulated statements were perfectly aware it was wrong whether they were following orders or otherwise. Each of them have a case to answer.

[Frazerbob]

I think you should get an award for the most overly dramatic post on the internet ever.

I cant speak for Vick but I dont agree that there is point in punishing every individual involved and subsequently making hundres (including families, maybe 1000s) of people suffer further from the findings.

The real questions should be, what level of pressure was put on over 100 police officers to change statements, and by whom? I dont believe they were all crooked police before hand.

What happened was a tragic, an avoidable accident, made worse for the cover up. Punish those in charge, but not the individuals forced to cover this up, as they were just pawns in the game. The families have every right to be angry and seek justice, but I think the rest of us should move on now.

I don't think anyone is going after the rank & file. As you say. it's the senior officers and match commander who made fatal decisions (opening the gates behind the stand, not allowing fans onto the pitch, not allowing ambulances into the stadium) then tried to cover them up by spreading malicious rumours, trying to find criminal records for the dead and testing blood alcohol levels on all the dead, including very young kids. On top of that, they changed statements and had secret de-breifings to get their story straight. These are the people that deserve to have the pensions stopped and should face criminal charges.

[Kato]

Liverpool fans have a history of not taking responsibility for their own actions so I find it hypocritical that they can expect anyone else to do the same.


I like a bit history but prefer when it's detailed: sources, evidence, balanced argument.

Maybe you could provide some?

[Mark79]

Has it ever been verified that Thatcher had a meeting with South Yorkshire Chief Constable the day after? If this meeting did take place she should be in the dock.

She will be of no use. Dont think she knows if its new york or new year these days.

[Scouse Hibee]

I think you should get an award for the most overly dramatic post on the internet ever.

I cant speak for Vick but I dont agree that there is point in punishing every individual involved and subsequently making hundres (including families, maybe 1000s) of people suffer further from the findings.

The real questions should be, what level of pressure was put on over 100 police officers to change statements, and by whom? I dont believe they were all crooked police before hand.

What happened was a tragic, an avoidable accident, made worse for the cover up. Punish those in charge, but not the individuals forced to cover this up, as they were just pawns in the game. The families have every right to be angry and seek justice, but I think the rest of us should move on now.

Well thanks for your opinion but as someone who is not one of the families but was there and affected by it I am still angry and seeking justice!

You then mention the "individuals forced to cover this up" nothing on this earth could have made me cover up the wrongs that were committed that day whether I was a Police officer or not.Any officer that alllowed themselves to be manipulated deserves to be punished IMO.

[erin go bragh]

Liverpool fans have a history of not taking responsibility for their own actions so I find it hypocritical that they can expect anyone else to do the same.

Dearie me :confused: take it you have never heard the saying " If you have nothing nice to say ,keep it shut "

[Pretty Boy]

She will be of no use. Dont think she knows if its new york or new year these days.

Shame that.......

[beensaidbefore]

I was just following orders m'lud has been a defence for years and its not acceptable.

People who deliberately altered, changed or manipulated statements were perfectly aware it was wrong whether they were following orders or otherwise. Each of them have a case to answer.

I agree, but from what i gather, the statements were made, then altered. I think the focus should be on who carried it out and on who's orders? When identified, those people should face justice for their part in it, but i believe the public, fuelled by the media are baying for blood, and as per usual some poor bugger will take the hit, while the real perpertrators get away with it. A 'moral panic' if you like.

Im pretty sure theres only a few people in the know, and they had a lot riding on it, plus the means to keep people quiet, hence the hush hush.

Corruption is well documented in places like Africa, but we seem to forget what goes on here. Theres a lot of feeling and passion surrounding this cover up, I just wish society was bothered about ALL the cover ups. The real problem is nobody likes to stick their head above the parapet, and all too many of us turn a blind eye when things are going in our favour.

[ScottB]

I suspect come the end of this we will simply have moved from denial, to it being a police cover up, which is itself likely a cover for the Thatcher government being involved. There's no way they didn't know what was going on.

Still, deplorable stuff. Nice to get an apology from Cameron, but really, it's got nothing to do with him, the apologies and contrition should be coming from those involved, from the dock.

[beensaidbefore]

Well thanks for your opinion but as someone who is not one of the families but was there and affected by it I am still angry and seeking justice!

You then mention the "individuals forced to cover this up" nothing on this earth could have made me cover up the wrongs that were committed that day whether I was a Police officer or not.Any officer that alllowed themselves to be manipulated deserves to be punished IMO.

Sorry mate, I really meant the families of everyone affected by it, which sadly it sounds like you and yours may have been. I do agree with your comments, but sometimes its not quite black and white. If youv ever read 1984, the guy in that has a job where he has to alter lines of documents without seeing the whole document. I know its not the same, but sometimes people do what they are told, and dont think to ask questions until its too late.

[beensaidbefore]

I suspect come the end of this we will simply have moved from denial, to it being a police cover up, which is itself likely a cover for the Thatcher government being involved. There's no way they didn't know what was going on.

Still, deplorable stuff. Nice to get an apology from Cameron, but really, it's got nothing to do with him, the apologies and contrition should be coming from those involved, from the dock.


Exactly.

http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Students/hrb9701.html

[heretoday]

Mackenzie claims he was "misled". Aye right. He's never been misled in his life. He's the biggest conman out.

[Scouse Hibee]

Sorry mate, I really meant the families of everyone affected by it, which sadly it sounds like you and yours may have been. I do agree with your comments, but sometimes its not quite black and white. If youv ever read 1984, the guy in that has a job where he has to alter lines of documents without seeing the whole document. I know its not the same, but sometimes people do what they are told, and dont think to ask questions until its too late.


No worries, I'll leave it at that as there are bound to be many opinions on accountability for actions etc. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

Alterations to statements.


Review and alteration of police statements
1.241 Prior to the Stuart-Smith Scrutiny an SYP officer had revealed that in the immediate
aftermath of the disaster officers had been instructed not to make entries in pocket-books
but to submit handwritten recollections for word-processing.
55
1.242 The recollections had been sent to Peter Metcalf, a senior partner in Hammond
Suddards, the solicitors representing SYP, who returned them to Chief Superintendent
Donald Denton, with recommendations for ‘review and alteration’.
1.243 Officers were visited by members of an internally appointed SYP team and
their agreement to the alterations secured. They were expected to sign the amended
recollections as formal statements.
1.244 The statements were then passed to the WMP investigation team and to the Taylor
Inquiry who were aware of and accepted the process of review, alteration and submission.
The explanation of the process, distributed throughout SYP, was ‘to collate what evidence
SYP officers can provide their Chief Constable in order that we can provide a suitable case,
on behalf of the Force to subsequent enquiries’.
1.245 While the justification for the review and alteration of statements was the removal
of personal opinion and conjecture, it was clear that statements were also amended to
eliminate criticism of senior officers and their management of the crowd. As the extent of the
process materialised, it became a focus for the Scrutiny.


1.246 LJ Stuart-Smith recorded that, in five weeks, over 400 recollections were processed
via the solicitors. He estimated that 253 passed without comment and 60 were ‘slightly’
amended. Over 90 statements were recommended for alteration.
1.247 LJ Stuart-Smith examined ‘approximately 100 amended statements where on the
face of the comments by the solicitors something of substance might have been referred
to’. He concluded that 74 were ‘of no consequence’. From the remaining 26, ‘comment and
opinion’ had been excluded, mainly officers’ criticisms of the police operation.

SYP, South Yorkshire Police. WMP, West Midlands Police.


I agree, but from what i gather, the statements were made, then altered. I think the focus should be on who carried it out and on who's orders? When identified, those people should face justice for their part in it, but i believe the public, fuelled by the media are baying for blood, and as per usual some poor bugger will take the hit, while the real perpertrators get away with it. A 'moral panic' if you like.

Im pretty sure theres only a few people in the know, and they had a lot riding on it, plus the means to keep people quiet, hence the hush hush.

Corruption is well documented in places like Africa, but we seem to forget what goes on here. Theres a lot of feeling and passion surrounding this cover up, I just wish society was bothered about ALL the cover ups. The real problem is nobody likes to stick their head above the parapet, and all too many of us turn a blind eye when things are going in our favour.

You've mentioned above, "I agree, but from what i gather, the statements were made, then altered".

The bit in bold above clearly indicates from the report that the statements were altered and then a group from SYP were sent to each individual to agree the changes and "SIGN OFF".

Each individual who changed their statement even under duress should be brought to book.

[ScottB]

Mackenzie claims he was "misled". Aye right. He's never been misled in his life. He's the biggest conman out.

A vile, reactionary, narrow minded *****bag of a man. That the BBC gives him a soapbox as often as it has is a disgusting use of public money.

Wouldnt surprise me if he was told to make up that headline.

[Baldy Foghorn]

The report today is only the starting point as the truth is now out. You should download it and give it a good read before coming back with further comment.

Some points from the report.

In the 394-page report the panel has shed new light on the disaster, including:

• Police carried out criminal record checks on the deceased in an attempt to "impugn their reputations"

• Senior officers privately discussed the "animalistic behaviour" of "drunken marauding fans"

• Evidence that a number of the dead survived "for a significant period" beyond the 3.15pm cut-off point imposed at the original inquest

• 116 of the 164 South Yorkshire Police statements were doctored to remove unfavourable comments

Every person involved, if still alive, should be taken to task for their disgraceful/inappropriate/corrupt behaviour, and get jail time....To cover up details of what happened to save their asses defies belief.

I hope the victims, can take some relief that what they knew all along has been proven correct, but punishments should be enforced on the vilest individuals (the British Police) who lied and blackened the names of the dead to preserve their jobs....

[beensaidbefore]

You've mentioned above, "I agree, but from what i gather, the statements were made, then altered".

The bit in bold above clearly indicates from the report that the statements were altered and then a group from SYP were sent to each individual to agree the changes and "SIGN OFF".

Each individual who changed their statement even under duress should be brought to book.

Agreed

[Corstorphine Hibby]

I could hardly contain my anger after reading this post, if you have nothing constructive to say then please don't bother commenting any further on this subject.

The sarcasm of "Liverpool always the victims never to blame" used many times over the last twenty odd years including by some on here will hopefully be used no more!

Heysel

[beensaidbefore]

Every person involved, if still alive, should be taken to task for their disgraceful/inappropriate/corrupt behaviour, and get jail time....To cover up details of what happened to save their asses defies belief.

I hope the victims, can take some relief that what they knew all along has been proven correct, but punishments should be enforced on the vilest individuals (the British Police) who lied and blackened the names of the dead to preserve their jobs....

punished, yes. But jail is pointless as a punishment. It costs society a fortune to keep prisoners and we get no benefit from the incarciration of non-dangerous prisoners. Repaying society in some way would be of benefit to everyone. Problem is such a provision doesn't really exist.

[Scouse Hibee]

Heysel


What about it?

Spill rather than just posting one word!

[Dashing Bob S]

FFS

Stop talking and do one eh?!

In the grand scheme of things EVERYTHING has changed. It has been officially recognised that there has been criminal injustice.

After truth must come justice. After justice can come peace.

:top marks

If somebody has made a total clown of themselves by spouting ill-informed nonsense, the best thing they can do is just leave the discussion instead of pathetically trying to reposition it with patently insincere 'procedural' points.

[Pretty Boy]

Heysel

Unbelievable

[lyonhibs]

Liverpool fans have a history of not taking responsibility for their own actions so I find it hypocritical that they can expect anyone else to do the same.

Well stone the crows that's a doozy. Explain what you're getting at please??

I hope the incompetent "up on high" ********s, be they journalists or polismen, that were responsible for this abhorrent crime and subsequent cover-up are brought to justice.

Lest we lose sight of what this is fundamentally about - 96 football fans went to a football match and never came home. Their families have been told a list of lies as long as my arm, by the police and by the national media, specifically that despicable **** Kelvin MacKenzie. Until today, no-one has ever claimed - or been identified - as being responsible and no official apology has ever been issued.

[lyonhibs]

Heysel

I hope someone with a utterly ***** sense of humour has hacked your account.......

[heid the baw]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

The Birmingham 6, MacGuires, Guilford 4, Blair Peach, the Belgrano, Hillsborough...A culture of cover ups prevailed throughout the 70's and 80's. The Police were given carte blanche to run roughshod over, demonise and brutalise the people they were meant to protect and serve. Brixton, Toxteth, Orgreave, detention without charge, SUS ect the police acted with total impunity and zero accountability.

The press pedalled the lies. This was not a "moral panic" but carefully calculated misinformation.

These facts should have been published years ago. The fact that it has taken so long is shameful and deliberate.

The campaigners for justice should be congratulated. Without people having the courage to challenge those in authority, governments will run roughshod over their own citizens.

[Corstorphine Hibby]

What about it?

Spill rather than just posting one word!



The sarcasm of "Liverpool always the victims never to blame" used many times over the last twenty odd years including by some on here will hopefully be used no more.[/QUOTE]


Liverpool fans at Heysel 20 odd years ago.
No sarcasm required for who was to blame that night.

[beensaidbefore]

The Birmingham 6, MacGuires, Guilford 4, Blair Peach, the Belgrano, Hillsborough...A culture of cover ups prevailed throughout the 70's and 80's. The Police were given carte blanche to run roughshod over, demonise and brutalise the people they were meant to protect and serve. Brixton, Toxteth, Orgreave, detention without charge, SUS ect the police acted with total impunity and zero accountability.

The press pedalled the lies. This was not a "moral panic" but carefully calculated misinformation.

These facts should have been published years ago. The fact that it has taken so long is shameful and deliberate.

The campaigners for justice should be congratulated. Without people having the courage to challenge those in authority, governments will run roughshod over their own citizens.



The moral panic here for me is the way people will clamour for some blood, then next week they will be baying for the blood of someone else. see Sharon Shoesmith, Fred Goodwin. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sharon-shoesmith-in-line-for-compensation-2330560.html

!00% agree that the problem was, and still is prevelant in our society, and we as a whole need to stand up for what is right and wrong. Cover-ups, secret hand-shakes, rate fixing etc etc all need to be stopped. Doesnt matter if your left or right, they are all as bad as each other, we need a shakedown from top to bottom, but who can you trust to do it without putting their own values and benefit before everyone else?

[PatHead]

I think you should get an award for the most overly dramatic post on the internet ever.

I cant speak for Vick but I dont agree that there is point in punishing every individual involved and subsequently making hundres (including families, maybe 1000s) of people suffer further from the findings.

The real questions should be, what level of pressure was put on over 100 police officers to change statements, and by whom? I dont believe they were all crooked police before hand.

What happened was a tragic, an avoidable accident, made worse for the cover up. Punish those in charge, but not the individuals forced to cover this up, as they were just pawns in the game. The families have every right to be angry and seek justice, but I think the rest of us should move on now.

Where have I said in the above post to punish everyone involved?

In addition any suffering by these people pales into insignificance compared to the suffering of Liverpool supporters.

I don't believe that the day was the result of an avoidable accident it was the result of Criminal negligence by those in charge of the match and they must be held accountable. It is like driving around in a car with bald tyres and no brakes and claiming that you weren't responsible for running someone over and shouldn't be held accountable as you tried to brake. These people were highly paid professionals who didn't do their jobs. This cost people there lives.

[Scouse Hibee]

Liverpool fans at Heysel 20 odd years ago.
No sarcasm required for who was to blame that night.[/QUOTE]


No sarcasm required because there was never any doubt as to who was to blame, if I recall correctly 14 were convicted and rightly so. Yes that's 14 not the entire Liverpool support for twenty seven years being beaten with the same stick. Well done for bringing that up though!

[heid the baw]

Liverpool fans at Heysel 20 odd years ago.
No sarcasm required for who was to blame that night.

There were many factors at play in Heysel that night, the decision to sell tickets to Belgian fans was critisised by Liverpool and Juve prior to the match and caused major segregation problems. Fans being treated like animals, violence from both sets of fans, heavy handed policing. Back in the mid 80's the fan was seen as no more that a troublesome by-product of the game.

Fans were tried and jailed for their actions that night......

[SteveHFC]

The sun tomorrow:

http://s1.jrnl.ie/media/2012/09/sun-12-310x415.jpg

[SaudiHibby]

This planet is a mixture of nice folk and tossers as evidenced by this thread.

[beensaidbefore]

Where have I said in the above post to punish everyone involved?

In addition any suffering by these people pales into insignificance compared to the suffering of Liverpool supporters.

I don't believe that the day was the result of an avoidable accident it was the result of Criminal negligence by those in charge of the match and they must be held accountable. It is like driving around in a car with bald tyres and no brakes and claiming that you weren't responsible for running someone over and shouldn't be held accountable as you tried to brake. These people were highly paid professionals who didn't do their jobs. This cost people there lives.


It wasnt in particular reply to yourself, but in comment to the general feeling that i got from this thread. I understood the point Vic was trying to make, - albeit a little insensitvely put - and felt that in general people had missed the point being made. Mistakes happen, corners get cut and sometimes you get away with it, other times it goes badly wrong. Thing is, we only want change when things go badly wrong. For example, was all seater stadiums the real soultion to the problems encountered at Hillsburgh? Clubs have sepnt millions on stadia, yet some fans would rather have a controlled terracing, which isn't allowed. IMO a knee jerk reaction to appease the public in a time of crisis. The solution to this current problem will be to name and shame some people, stick another couple in jail, and blame the rest on people eho have died, public will be happy that 'justice' is done and move on feeling satisfied that they voiced their opinion and helped the cause. All the while missing the bigger point.

People should pay the price for their actions, but the rule makers and enforcers will esacpe as per usual.

I do hope im wrong thought tbh.

[Hibs On Tour]

No. But some people on here are.

In your opinion...

[beensaidbefore]

In your opinion...

Yes. In my opinion.

[Kato]

Heysel

You're 44 years old f'fs - is that really the depth of your humanity?

[JohnStephens91]

Years of lies and deceit revealed today at last, hopefully criminal charges are brought against everyone involved. The toad MacKenzie apologises after he's been caught, low life **** the lot of them, police, councillors, Sheffield Wednesday staff, politicians, coroners and journalists all in it together and rotten to the core.

164 cases of perjury coming up. MacKenzie for libel or defamation of character is possible. Manslaughter should be dished out as well, 96 men, women and children could have been saved if the police had done their job properly. Gross negligence resulted in needless deaths, 41 of those could have been saved after 3:15 that day. Absolutely disgusting and vile human beings, the police actively searched the background of the dead to see if they had a criminal history. Absolute joke, a disgrace, no words can describe how heinous that is. All involved should be prosecuted.

Anyone that tries to suggest that the families of the 96 are wrong in chasing justice needs to have a good look in the mirror. Would you have done the same if it was your mum, dad, brother, sister or even your son or daughter who perished needlessly due to a mass cover-up. It’s absolutely filthy and abhorrent that it has taken 23 years to finally discover the truth for real. Also the families of the 96 are not just the ones who are affected, fellow fans at the match will still be suffering to this day, even fans of other football clubs still feel a profound sadness over Hillsborough.

Try visiting the Hillsborough memorial at Anfield and see letters written out for children as young as 9 from their brothers, sisters or parents and see if your attitude changes. I have visited and lay down some flowers, it’s heartbreaking and you will feel it take a grip of your body and tears will swell up in your eyes, they were effectively murdered by gross neglience and then fellow fans who were probably injured as well blamed and called murderers. I can’t even watch the footage, it is soul destroying to see.

The first step towards justice is discovering the truth. Justice is coming for the 96 soon, and thank goodness it is coming at long last.

[Baader]

Thoroughly disgusting reading the findings of the report. The whole of football should be united in it's anger and outrage. Horrific enough what happened that day without the ensuing cover up by the authorities involved and the ever reliable low life Sun. Despicable

[McIntosh]

Heysel


Are you saying the 96 innocent dead were responsible for that? Get a grip of yourself and you call yourself a Hibby. Once a Tory always a Tory and by God it shows.

[McIntosh]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

You provoked a strong response with this tripe.

[Pete]

Some of the reaction to Vick makes post has been out of order. His post was perhaps worded wrongly and insensitivity but I can understpod what he was trying to say without getting that worked up even though I disagree.

This Is a public forum and people are going to have different points of view on sensitive subjects. Maybe the ones who have difficulty grasping that are the ones who should withdraw from the "debate".

[Northernhibee]

The sun tomorrow:

http://s1.jrnl.ie/media/2012/09/sun-12-310x415.jpg

Not good enough.

If their headline was anything other than WE LIED then it remains an insult.

[Brizo]

Heysel


Are you by any chance the poster formerly known as Corrie Green. Same area , same political beliefs, same mentality.

[Just Alf]

You provoked a strong response with this tripe. I am just amazed you have not had death threats.

Luckily we're not hunmedia ....... We stick to debate (and argument :-) ) ..... even if it is a bit ....er.... "robust" at times!

[Beefster]

.

Ignoring the rights and wrongs of the post you were replying to, that's one of the most ludicrous things I've ever read on here.

[Bill Milne]

This has been a perfect illustration of the way the establishlment seeks to protect its own at all times.As soon as it was obvious that there had been a major cock up (and don't forget a semi was played at Hillsborough the previous year with no problems, thereby indicating the 1989 problem was the responsibility of the match commander), the whitewash brush was applied liberally to blame the fans. I was 24 at the time and I well remember feelings of disgust with the Liverpool fans when the "truth" came out. Much has been made clear by the independent commission and I, for one, am grateful to them for clearing up a grievous misconception on my part. Thatcher was clearly involved in the cover up and took the oppotunity, subsequently, to introduce legislation which targeted a section of the community ie us which she clearly had no time for.

[Pretty Boy]

This has been a perfect illustration of the way the establishlment seeks to protect its own at all times.As soon as it was obvious that there had been a major cock up (and don't forget a semi was played at Hillsborough the previous year with no problems, thereby indicating the 1989 problem was the responsibility of the match commander), the whitewash brush was applied liberally to blame the fans. I was 24 at the time and I well remember feelings of disgust with the Liverpool fans when the "truth" came out. Much has been made clear by the independent commission and I, for one, am grateful to them for clearing up a grievous misconception on my part. Thatcher was clearly involved in the cover up and took the oppotunity, subsequently, to introduce legislation which targeted a section of the community ie us which she clearly had no time for.

Whilst on nothing like the same scale there was also visible overcrowding inn the Leppings Lane end at the 1988 semi. I think it was Bruce Grobellar who spoke in a documentary and said he was genuinely scared by how tightly packed it was when Liverpool scored that night. Liverpool as a club had repeatedly requested the much larger, and logistically more sensible, Kop end.

The whole day was set up for disaster because the capacity had been grossly overestimated.

[McIntosh]

Some of the reaction to Vick makes post has been out of order. His post was perhaps worded wrongly and insensitivity but I can understpod what he was trying to say without getting that worked up even though I disagree.

This Is a public forum and people are going to have different points of view on sensitive subjects. Maybe the ones who have difficulty grasping that are the ones who should withdraw from the "debate".

There are 96 innocent dead.

There has been a massive cover-up by the organs of the state.

Yet this 'man' spouts this rubbish on the very day, on the very day that the families are vindicated. Insensitive does not describe his 'comments' - appalling does. Shocking.

[VickMackie]

Thinly veiled threats... Erm, okay. Some people do need to get a grip.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

You provoked a strong response with this tripe..

I realise that this is an emotive subject, but, seriously?

[McIntosh]

Thinly veiled threats... Erm, okay. Some people do need to get a grip.

Where do you get off. I am too old for your distraction tactics.

The victims are the 96 dead not your demaged ego. Don't you get it - there had been a massive miscarriage of justice. Sadly, you are not man enough to admit that your comments were totally unacceptable. For the record If I wanted to threaten you it would be not thinly veiled.

[PatHead]

You provoked a strong response with this tripe. .

That is just a stupid post. What are you trying to add to the debate?

[haagsehibby]

Ok. I accept criticism of my post and apologise to anyone offended but to call my post one of the most offensive things ever written on this site, or the Internet, is ridiculous.

As far as I can see nothing has changed after today's events although I appreciate acceptance that things went wrong were a major milestone for families involved. No one has been held accountable for actions on that day.

Classic example of an apology that's not really an apology. Shifting the onus onto anyone that might have offended by your crass and insensitive post.

[McIntosh]

I realise that this is an emotive subject, but, seriously?

HH, I should have caveated this comment - I was trying to convey (poorly) that I was surprised that there hadn't been a more ferocious response from other posters.

[jacomo]

Not good enough.

If their headline was anything other than WE LIED then it remains an insult.

:agree:

Even knowing the way they operate, I am gob smacked by The Sun's headline this morning and it's reference to their infamous front cover back in 89.

Disgraceful.

[McIntosh]

Classic example of an apology that's not really an apology. Shifting the onus onto anyone that might have offended by your crass and insensitive post.

:top marksCould not agree more, I thought the comments were an apology for an apology.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

HH, I should have caveated this comment - I was trying to convey (poorly) that I was surprised that there hadn't been a more ferocious response from other posters.

Fair enough.

[Lester B]

Years of lies and deceit revealed today at last, hopefully criminal charges are brought against everyone involved. The toad MacKenzie apologises after he's been caught, low life **** the lot of them, police, councillors, Sheffield Wednesday staff, politicians, coroners and journalists all in it together and rotten to the core.

164 cases of perjury coming up. MacKenzie for libel or defamation of character is possible. Manslaughter should be dished out as well, 96 men, women and children could have been saved if the police had done their job properly. Gross negligence resulted in needless deaths, 41 of those could have been saved after 3:15 that day. Absolutely disgusting and vile human beings, the police actively searched the background of the dead to see if they had a criminal history. Absolute joke, a disgrace, no words can describe how heinous that is. All involved should be prosecuted.

Anyone that tries to suggest that the families of the 96 are wrong in chasing justice needs to have a good look in the mirror. Would you have done the same if it was your mum, dad, brother, sister or even your son or daughter who perished needlessly due to a mass cover-up. It’s absolutely filthy and abhorrent that it has taken 23 years to finally discover the truth for real. Also the families of the 96 are not just the ones who are affected, fellow fans at the match will still be suffering to this day, even fans of other football clubs still feel a profound sadness over Hillsborough.

Try visiting the Hillsborough memorial at Anfield and see letters written out for children as young as 9 from their brothers, sisters or parents and see if your attitude changes. I have visited and lay down some flowers, it’s heartbreaking and you will feel it take a grip of your body and tears will swell up in your eyes, they were effectively murdered by gross neglience and then fellow fans who were probably injured as well blamed and called murderers. I can’t even watch the footage, it is soul destroying to see.

The first step towards justice is discovering the truth. Justice is coming for the 96 soon, and thank goodness it is coming at long last.

Superb post!:top marks

[FranckSuzy]

A comment made today by a journalist sums it up for me. 'Would it have taken 23 years for the truth to come out if this had happened at Wimbledon?'. Exactly.

[ScottB]

A comment made today by a journalist sums it up for me. 'Would it have taken 23 years for the truth to come out if this had happened at Wimbledon?'. Exactly.

I'm pretty sure if it happened today it wouldn't take 23 years either. Football was different and was treated differently back then.

[Lester B]

'Liverpool fans at Heysel 20 odd years ago.
No sarcasm required for who was to blame that night'

OK here's the deal.

1. Read up on what actually happened at Heysel. You may want to familarise yourself with the actual year it took place rather than '20 odd years' ago. Note that guilty in this case were held to blame for their actions. You may wish to compare this with Hillsborough where the innocent were blamed and the guilty lied, changed documents and sought to smear the innocent.
2. Look up what the imbecile in your avatar said about Liverpool, and specifically Hillsborough, in 2004. Pay particular attention to his lavish praise of the police there that day in these quotes.
3. Come back and post the phrase: 'I fully accept now that I am a compassionless, reactionary oaf'

3 is optional, I appreciate.

[21.05.2016]

The sun tomorrow:

http://s1.jrnl.ie/media/2012/09/sun-12-310x415.jpg

Too little too late. Disgusting, rag of a paper!

Their actions after the tragedy will, quite rightly, never be forgiven by the people of Liverpool. 96 innocent lives lost, many people still in shock, familes grieving for lost loved ones, victims not even buried yet and they come out with those vile lies to slander the fans, many of which helped save lives that day.

[Phil MaGlass]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

:confused:

Jings, crivvens, help ma boab:confused:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If the internet had been around when this tragedy had taken place it would never have taken 23 years to get to the truth, by the same token, if the Rangers situation had happened back then they would probably never have been found out and would've gotten away with it scotfree.

[VickMackie]

My apology was sincere.

I was just highlighting the over reaction that my post was the worst in Internet history is ridiculous.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

My apology was sincere.

I was just highlighting the over reaction that my post was the worst in Internet history is ridiculous.

I've got to agree with your 2nd paragraph, I mean, somebody posted on The US Open 2012 thread in The other sports forum that Serena Williams is hot, wtf is that all about?

[The Harp]

I’m disappointed, but not surprised, to see this thread got as far as the 4th post before attracting the first disparaging remark.
May this report, and the prospect of those guilty of a cover up being brought to justice, bring some relief to the grieving families.
As for the Sun – it never ceases to amaze me that this rag continues to be the country’s biggest selling daily newspaper. Says a lot for the tastes of the British public.

[Scouse Hibee]

Whilst on nothing like the same scale there was also visible overcrowding inn the Leppings Lane end at the 1988 semi. I think it was Bruce Grobellar who spoke in a documentary and said he was genuinely scared by how tightly packed it was when Liverpool scored that night. Liverpool as a club had repeatedly requested the much larger, and logistically more sensible, Kop end.

The whole day was set up for disaster because the capacity had been grossly overestimated.


Correct, after suffering some distressing moments in the Leppings Lane end terracing in 1988 my mate and I decided to swap our terracing tickets for the 1989 semi for those in the seated area..............there but for the grace of god.

[EskbankHibby]

Correct, after suffering some distressing moments in the Leppings Lane end terracing in 1988 my mate and I decided to swap our terracing tickets for the 1989 semi for those in the seated area..............there but for the grace of god.

Apparently one Liverpool fan had written to the FA and Colin Moynihan the year before highlighting this very issue, tragically ignored it would seem.

[poolman]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.


That has to be the most crass, insensitive piece of ***** I have ever read on this board

[Sudds_1]

FFS, what is it that people want from the hilsborough story?

Someone to admit their mistakes and destroy countless other lives?

No doubt there were other games played at that time where there were a lot of similarities in terms of safety.

People need to get a grip and move on. It's clear there were failings but it seems people want blood on this.

..............for one of the few times in my life I'm utterly speechless after reading this post. :agree:

[Sudds_1]

There were many factors at play in Heysel that night, the decision to sell tickets to Belgian fans was critisised by Liverpool and Juve prior to the match and caused major segregation problems. Fans being treated like animals, violence from both sets of fans, heavy handed policing. Back in the mid 80's the fan was seen as no more that a troublesome by-product of the game.

Fans were tried and jailed for their actions that night......

much the same in 2012................:rolleyes:

[PatHead]

My apology was sincere.

I was just highlighting the over reaction that my post was the worst in Internet history is ridiculous.


Personally I found your post right up amongst the worst I have read anywhere on the internet. I genuinely cannot think of any worst posts I have ever read for being ignorant, inappropriate, insensitive, callous and just so out of touch.

It is not up to you to decide whether I found your post the most ridiculous I have ever read as you don't know what sites I read and certainly nothing on this site has ever sunk that low. By the way it is not only me who has commented on how crass your comments are.

You are in a big enough hole and you make yourself look worse by making partial apologies which come over as insincere through trying to justify yourself. I really would stop digging if I was you and do what I said to do yesterday- spend half an hour researching what happened, (even the Sun has caught up with that now), then go and look at yourself in a mirror and think about your comments.

[InchHibby]

The Birmingham 6, MacGuires, Guilford 4, Blair Peach, the Belgrano, Hillsborough...A culture of cover ups prevailed throughout the 70's and 80's. The Police were given carte blanche to run roughshod over, demonise and brutalise the people they were meant to protect and serve. Brixton, Toxteth, Orgreave, detention without charge, SUS ect the police acted with total impunity and zero accountability.

The press pedalled the lies. This was not a "moral panic" but carefully calculated misinformation.

These facts should have been published years ago. The fact that it has taken so long is shameful and deliberate.

The campaigners for justice should be congratulated. Without people having the courage to challenge those in authority, governments will run roughshod over their own citizens.

Include the Miners and their communities in that, once again a Thatcher Government.

[Onion]

Too little too late. Disgusting, rag of a paper!

Their actions after the tragedy will, quite rightly, never be forgiven by the people of Liverpool. 96 innocent lives lost, many people still in shock, familes grieving for lost loved ones, victims not even buried yet and they come out with those vile lies to slander the fans, many of which helped save lives that day.

:agree: It should have been their "Ratner" moment. That rag shames the UK and should have been forced to close down for the crass position it took to a terrible tragedy that affected so many innocents.

I trust it is doing the decent thing and giving all the proceeds from today's edition to the relatives.... I expect not.

[Gettin' Auld]

Don't know if this has been shown already in this thread, but i hope that this ****in' inbred bumbling half-wit gets a tough time as well............

“A combination of economic misfortune…and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society.…Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident..."

Boris Johnson
The Spectator
October 16th 2004

[InchHibby]

I watched events unfold on that day and can fully understand and appreciate why the people from Liverpool would not let this go. It was obvious and clear to anyone watching that the accusations were totally absurd and untrue. I also read the article in the Sun Newspaper four days later and Could not believe the utter rubbish I was reading. Then again it was a Thatcher Government and at that particular time the Sun Newspaper supported the Tories and I believe that between them and the Police (The Tories had given the Police a more than generous pay rise in order to have them on their side to deal with the miners) they concocted and distributed this total bull to the general public. On the day the Sun printed this the people from Liverpool decided to boycott the Sun, I for one did the same and still don't buy it to this day.

[Green_one]

I'm pretty sure if it happened today it wouldn't take 23 years either. Football was different and was treated differently back then.

I still think football fans are treated shabbily even today. Its the authorities that are living in the past and no doubt repeating it.

I always thought Hillsborough was a terrible tragedy, very badly managed and with more than a suspicion of hidden evidence (tapes went missing etc). Although I had sympathy with the Liverpool fans and the relatives of the 96 I did not really get the depth of emotion for justice. I bought into the official reports. I only really condemned the 3.15 rule and the way the relatives identified their loved ones bodies (which was horrific).

Now I feel like some idiot who has sat at the sidelines of a gross injustice. The systematic changing of evidence. The deliberate attempt to implicate the supporters, even children, as being responsible. But worst of all, the fact that 41 might have survived. The one good thing to come out of these disasters is that lessons can be learnt and the situation not repeated. Not in this case. Some of those involved are holding prime posts in the Police. I am not in favour of witch hunts and I think that the majority of officers are not responsible for the changing of evidence. However those who did these things need to be brought to justice , not just for the 96, though that would be reason enough, but for all football fans and ordinary citizens who expect the justice system to work. If we lose confidence in that then we move towards chaos.

I find myself getting angry about this as I have swallowed the lies and those who stood with the 96 stood largely alone. I think the relatives have taken it very well, considering the scale and depth of the deceit. If it had been me, the detail of the 41 who possibly lived beyond 3.15 and who were ignored, would have driven me insane. The Coroner Popper said that it was neither here nor there that fans may have breathed, had heart beats etc at say 3.30 or 4.00 . Tell me that sort of **** does not demand justice!!!! And this is from a Hibs and Man United supporter. Lord knows what anyone from Liverpool is thinking. Probably glad the truth is finally getting out but that must change soon to a search for final justice. This is an assault on Liverpool , football and the justice system that needs to be seen to be resolved properly. Someone has it coming big time. If not, then can we ever believe one of these judicial charades again?

[Frazerbob]

Don't know if this has been shown already in this thread, but i hope that this ****in' inbred bumbling half-wit gets a tough time as well............

“A combination of economic misfortune…and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society.…Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident..."

Boris Johnson
The Spectator
October 16th 2004

The sad fact is that this is (hopefully was after yesterday) the view of the majority. That is the level of damage The Sun's article caused. Every time this subject is discussed here, there are more than a few who come on and blame the fans for being drunk, ticketless etc. They simply didn't know the facts or believed what they read in The Sun (and other papers). This is why everyone involved in this sorry affair needs to be brought to task and why the press in this country needs to be better managed, independently of any government.

[andyf5]

My apology was sincere.

I was just highlighting the over reaction that my post was the worst in Internet history is ridiculous.

When I re-read your original post and the one immediately before it I kind of get what you were meaning. It is important though that things are taken further so that in the future the same thing does not happen again and to send a message that the following is not acceptable.

There were initial mistakes that led to a gate being opened that shouldn't have been but then what followed was inexcusable in my opinion. I listened to the one ambulance man on the pitch that day on BBC Scotland at lunchtime. He said people were denied medical assistance because the police refused to allow 40 ambulances in. 41 people could have been saved but were not by that decision. Then someone got all the police together to change their accounts. Then they told lies to the Sun and the Tory MP. Then they used the police national computer to try and find "dirt" on the dead. And they once the big lie was in place they connived with the coroner etc to help cover it up for years.

This does not mean a witch hunt of every individual but certainly holding to account those in positions of authority who orchestrated the cover up. It's not one simple mistake but repeated actions and 23 years of lies about 96 innocent people.

[Stevie Reid]

The sad fact is that this is (hopefully was after yesterday) the view of the majority. That is the level of damage The Sun's article caused. Every time this subject is discussed here, there are more than a few who come on and blame the fans for being drunk, ticketless etc. They simply didn't know the facts or believed what they read in The Sun (and other papers). This is why everyone involved in this sorry affair needs to be brought to task and why the press in this country needs to be better managed, independently of any government.

An insight into how Kelvin MacKenzie thinks: -

While it was in 1978 that The Sun initially overtook the Daily Mirror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mirror) in terms of circulation, it was during MacKenzie's spell as editor that The Sun firmly established itself as the biggest selling newspaper in Britain.

It was MacKenzie who cemented the paper's image as a right-wing tabloid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_newspaper), not only greatly increasing its circulation and dramatically heightening its profile, but also making it infamous in the eyes of the British public for its attacks onleft-wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing) political figures and movements and its sensationalist front-page celebrity "exposes", which frequently turned out to be misleading or outright false, with MacKenzie presiding over many of the biggest controversies in the paper's history. Critics accused the paper of exaggerating or even inventing news stories under MacKenzie (on some occasions this was proven to be the case[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie#cite_note-pilger-1)) and of severely dumbing down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbing_down) public discourse. The paper was frequently accused of promoting jingoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism), racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism), homophobia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia), and intolerance.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie#cite_note-pilger-1)

However, MacKenzie is quoted as saying in the early 1980s (on the subject of how he perceived his target audience and how he approached journalism):


You just don't understand the readers, do you, eh? He's the bloke you see in the pub, a right old fascist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist), wants to send the wogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog) back, buy his poxy council house (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_house), he's afraid of the unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions), afraid of the Russians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union), hates thequeers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual) and the weirdos and drug dealers. He doesn't want to hear about that stuff (serious news).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie#cite_note-punter-4)

[Stevie Reid]

An insight into how Kelvin MacKenzie thinks: -

While it was in 1978 that The Sun initially overtook the Daily Mirror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mirror) in terms of circulation, it was during MacKenzie's spell as editor that The Sun firmly established itself as the biggest selling newspaper in Britain.

It was MacKenzie who cemented the paper's image as a right-wing tabloid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_newspaper), not only greatly increasing its circulation and dramatically heightening its profile, but also making it infamous in the eyes of the British public for its attacks onleft-wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing) political figures and movements and its sensationalist front-page celebrity "exposes", which frequently turned out to be misleading or outright false, with MacKenzie presiding over many of the biggest controversies in the paper's history. Critics accused the paper of exaggerating or even inventing news stories under MacKenzie (on some occasions this was proven to be the case[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie#cite_note-pilger-1)) and of severely dumbing down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbing_down) public discourse. The paper was frequently accused of promoting jingoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism), racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism), homophobia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia), and intolerance.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie#cite_note-pilger-1)

However, MacKenzie is quoted as saying in the early 1980s (on the subject of how he perceived his target audience and how he approached journalism):


You just don't understand the readers, do you, eh? He's the bloke you see in the pub, a right old fascist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist), wants to send the wogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog) back, buy his poxy council house (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_house), he's afraid of the unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions), afraid of the Russians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union), hates thequeers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual) and the weirdos and drug dealers. He doesn't want to hear about that stuff (serious news).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie#cite_note-punter-4)




I said yesterday on another forum that this man should never be given a platform on Question Time or any such programme again, it was ridiculous that he was in the first place - it has long been established (often, by his own admission) that he is a disgusting, disgraceful liar. The best thing to do with him would be to ignore him, he would hate that, but I suspect that too many people will (understandably) find that too difficult.

[bawheid]

I said yesterday on another forum that this man should never be given a platform on Question Time or any such programme again, it was ridiculous that he was in the first place - it has long been established (often, by his own admission) that he is a disgusting, disgraceful liar. The best thing to do with him would be to ignore him, he would hate that, but I suspect that too many people will (understandably) find that too difficult.

He should be hung, drawn through the streets of Liverpool and then quartered. His head should be on a spike above Anfield with the remaining body parts posted in Scotland, Newcastle and Cardiff.

Even that would be too good for him.

[Stevie Reid]

He should be hung, drawn through the streets of Liverpool and then quartered. His head should be on a spike above Anfield with the remaining body parts posted in Scotland, Newcastle and Cardiff.

Even that would be too good for him.

I wholeheartedly agree - but he seems to be the worse kind of snake, one that revels in abuse.

Check his behaviour in the clip in this news story (if you don't mind being infuriated): -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/dec/09/kelvin-mackenzie-hillsborough-disaster

Odious cretin, who doesn't even pretend to be anything else.

[bawheid]

I wholeheartedly agree - but he seems to be the worse kind of snake, one that revels in abuse.

Check his behaviour in the clip in this news story (if you don't mind being infuriated): -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/dec/09/kelvin-mackenzie-hillsborough-disaster

Can't view the clip at work for fear of infuriating the rest of my office. I'll check it out later.

I've written to the BBC on a couple of occasions about his appearances on Question Time. The jist of the replies were that he has strong opinions and provokes debate which was good for the programme. Doubt they'll be asking him back now.

The man's a ****.

[Stevie Reid]

Can't view the clip at work for fear of infuriating the rest of my office. I'll check it out later.

I've written to the BBC on a couple of occasions about his appearances on Question Time. The jist of the replies were that he has strong opinions and provokes debate which was good for the programme. Doubt they'll be asking him back now.

The man's a ****.

Fingers crossed.

[twiceinathens]

And inevitably the buckpassing has begun. After years of insisting that the substance of the Sun article was justified the suddenly repentant Kelvin Mckenzie was of course "misled by his sources", similar excuse coming from Boris Johnson recycling material from the Express. And what of Irvine Patnick - now Sir Cyril Irvine Patnick the Tory MP who was apparently quite happy to back the line fed to him by senior police? Refused to respond so far, but you can bet he "acted in good faith".

[ronaldo7]

The Birmingham 6, MacGuires, Guilford 4, Blair Peach, the Belgrano, Hillsborough...A culture of cover ups prevailed throughout the 70's and 80's. The Police were given carte blanche to run roughshod over, demonise and brutalise the people they were meant to protect and serve. Brixton, Toxteth, Orgreave, detention without charge, SUS ect the police acted with total impunity and zero accountability.

The press pedalled the lies. This was not a "moral panic" but carefully calculated misinformation.

These facts should have been published years ago. The fact that it has taken so long is shameful and deliberate.

The campaigners for justice should be congratulated. Without people having the courage to challenge those in authority, governments will run roughshod over their own citizens.


Include the Miners and their communities in that, once again a Thatcher Government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/29/newsid_2494000/2494793.stm

[God Petrie]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

[Allant1981]

O
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

Why would folk mention this without trying to cause arguments, what happened that day was terrible and this thread was about the new report not what idiotic fans have done in other games, this game had people die through no fault of their own so stop trying to get a reaction

[nonshinyfinish]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

It seems that your logic is that if any Liverpool fan has ever done anything wrong, then no Liverpool fan is allowed to feel even slightly aggrieved that 96 people died due to a combination of incompetence, negligence and downright callousness.

How strange.

[_hucks_]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

They are two completely seperate incidents and need to be treated as such. Justice for the 96 who lost their lives that day should never be compromised because of different events on a different day.

[Off the bar]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

I can only presume your reading this thread and thinking no-one has been slaughtered for a while so 'I'll post something to wind them all up'

ps if you want an example of Hillsborough being handled in an embarrassing way look at how the police/government/media have handled it.

[lucky]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

Get lost you clown. 96 fans died and it was covered up. I hope you never mate with your fellow odious poster VickMackie. Two cheeks of the one arse

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.


Still trying eh pal!

[BroxburnHibee]

Guys - its an emotive subject and one that will be discussed time and again however if you cant find a way to get your opinions over without the abuse then we'll have to delete it.

Dont really want to go down that road so its up to you.

[HH81]

Wow some odd comments on this thread.

Let's not forget 96 people were killed here. Now for justice. Not convinced anyone will be charged though.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

[QUOTE=andyf5;3357868]

There were initial mistakes that led to a gate being opened that shouldn't have been but then what followed was inexcusable in my opinion.

I had the misfortune to enter the ground via The Leppings Lane end turnstiles that day, but, the good fortune to be sitting in the stand opposite the main stand instead of being in one of the pens behind the goals, I honestly believe that if the decision hadn't been made to open the gates then people would've been crushed to death outside, this was mainly down to having to enter the turnstile area which IIRC was only accessible via one big gate which led to a fenced area where the actual turnstiles were. If only they shut off access once through the turnstiles to the two central pens and directed fans into the two side pens then a great deal of heartache could've been avoided. Obviously there's no excuse for subsquent cover ups etc as revealed in yesterdays report.

[McIntosh]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

The only things that is embarrassing are your shameful comments. I never thought Hibs fans could come out with such reprehensible garbage. Whether your opinions are true or false there is a simple overiding fact - 96 innocent people are dead and there has been a massive cover-up by the state. Your comments are a gross insult to their memory and you my friend should hide your head in shame.

The dead cannot speak for themselves but there are many who will protect their memory and not let their lives be belittled by people like you.

[hibsbollah]

Its a real shame the way this thread has degenerated. Im not sure if its down to attention seeking, trolling or just a need to take the perverse view.

It could just as easily have been Hibs fans. It would be nice to get everyone appreciating that fact and feeling empathy but clearly thats a step too far for some folk.

[Scouse Hibee]

Its a real shame the way this thread has degenerated. Im not sure if its down to attention seeking, trolling or just a need to take the perverse view.

It could just as easily have been Hibs fans. It would be nice to get everyone appreciating that fact and feeling empathy but clearly thats a step too far for some folk.


As hard as it's been for me to do, not rising to the bait is the answer.

[DaveF]

As hard as it's been for me to do, not rising to the bait is the answer.

:agree: Don't give that post the time of day.

[McD]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

Oh right, so just to follow your logic, no rangers fan should be allowed to mourn those who died in the Ibrox disaster because of the EBT scandal?

People like you are the lowest of the low, God forbid anyone you are close to suffers anything like this, although I suspect your opinion may well change then.

Can I ask, should any former hibs casual not be allowed to grieve if a family member passes away through tragic circumstances, as they have previous caused harm to someone?

You make me sick, and truly ashamed that you are a fellow fan, indeed a fellow human being.

Despicable.

[sven nil]

Thinly veiled threats... Erm, okay. Some people do need to get a grip.
Is the tablets kicking in now.

[Kato]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

Oooooh look at you, look at yooooooooooou.

[steakbake]

Oh right, so just to follow your logic, no rangers fan should be allowed to mourn those who died in the Ibrox disaster because of the EBT scandal?

I was going to make a similar point. It doesn't matter who the fans are or what the club is. People go to the football to see their team, not to be robbed of their lives by incompetent stewarding of the crowds and then have their memories stained by years of slander and muck raking.

[wazoo1875]

Just finished watching an excellent half hour documentary called Hillsborough:Seeking the truth it was only shown in Yorkshire and the north west so I couldn't find it on the BBC iPlayer through virgin but got it on the app on my phone.
Some of it is going over old ground a little but you get a different perspective from a police officer on the ground that day and the reporter who wrote the story which gave the sun it's infamous headline. Well worth watching if you've a spare half hour.
The footage still makes me feel queasy to this day and I just cannot get my head around some of the mistakes that were made. I can only hope that some of these people are taken the whole road over this.

[Scouse Hibee]

Just finished watching an excellent half hour documentary called Hillsborough:Seeking the truth it was only shown in Yorkshire and the north west so I couldn't find it on the BBC iPlayer through virgin but got it on the app on my phone.
Some of it is going over old ground a little but you get a different perspective from a police officer on the ground that day and the reporter who wrote the story which gave the sun it's infamous headline. Well worth watching if you've a spare half hour.
The footage still makes me feel queasy to this day and I just cannot get my head around some of the mistakes that were made. I can only hope that some of these people are taken the whole road over this.



:agree: Was on here also earlier in the week.

[wazoo1875]

:agree: Was on here also earlier in the week.

Ah I hadn't seen that it'd been on up here. They had been talking about it on talksport. That poor woman always gets me with the story of her sons jacket at the makeshift morgue. I'll be at Anfield in December for the first time and I'll be paying my respects at the memorial.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trouble at the Liverpool vs Milan CL final where UEFA reported Liverpool fans stealing tickets off each other, forging tickets and forcing their way in without tickets.

They didn't seem to have "the 96" in their thoughts that day.

The way Liverpool fans have handled Hillsborough and Heysel is nothing short of embarrassing. They are too busy wallowing in their Celtic-esque victimisation complex to even notice though.

I wrote something earlier that I've since deleted because it didn't belong a thread like this.

However I'll keep it simple and civil this time. I genuinely pity you, anyone who can write something with such a lack of empathy obviously has some kind of emotional problem. If someone can honestly read the reports of the last couple of days and no doubt have seen the Hillsborough footage over the years and still post crap like that then they need help.

[FranckSuzy]

I'm beginning to wonder if certain posters on here aren't a) Sun journalists of the time b) Tory MP's of the time or c) members of the SY police force of the time, as for the life of me, I cannot comprehend their stance at all :bitchy:

[NAE NOOKIE]

The first thing to say about Hillsborough is that it was the ( if not inevitable ) then certainly forseeable ending to the events of the 15 or so years preceding it.

Football hooliganism had risen to such an extent over that period that the result was football grounds with 7 foot high iron fences surrounding the pitch. From that point of view football fans themselves were to an extent to blame for the circumstances which came together on that horrible afternoon. In truth fences were never going to be the long term answer to the hooligan problem, but the powers that be were too short sighted to see it, they looked at incidents like Heysel and concluded they were dealing with dangerous animals .... so what do you do with an animal?

It cant be denied that if Hillsborough hadnt had these fences the death toll certainly wouldnt have been 96. Anybody who ever ran onto the pitch to take part in a punch up with opposition fans, or ran along the terraces to throw a punch or a kick take note, short term stupidity, at least in part, led to long term tragedy.

The second factor in the disaster on the day, and the cover up which followed was, again, the mindset of the people in power at the time. The truth of the matter was that not only did they not understand the ( in those days ) mainly working class followers of the game and the sometimes out of proportion passion they displayed, they were frightened of it. Thatcher was the embodiment of that mindset, a mindset which also set her to hope for ( if not encourage ) a showdown with a powerfull union .. the miners gave her her wish and she in effect used the Police as a political tool .... not just to break the miners, but to bring the union movement as a whole to heel.

In view of that it cant be overlooked that she owed the Yorkshire Police force big time for the part they played in the mid 80s miners strikes ... there can also be little doubt that this fact enabled the people at the top in the Police to be not only confident that anything they told the Government would be willingly believed, but that the Government would stick by them in any enquiry that followed. As proved to be the case.

As for the Sun and their hideous little Nazi ex editor:

Can they honestly expect people to believe their contention that the story they printed at the time was done in good faith and only came to pass because the big bad Policemen had lied to them. In the face of a story of such stunning magnitude do they seriously expect people to fall for this. What newspaper, from the biggest paper on Earth to the most modest local rag would fail to get evidence from every angle before printing the stuff they did. Stuff they knew would cause the victims families and the people of the city of Liverpool incredible distress.

In the crowd that day there must have been lawyers, doctors and other men and women of good standing, even off duty Police officers and journalists, who would have been available for interview and who could have painted a very different picture of the events of that afternoon. The Sun wanted their story to be true, and the real truth would have got in the way of that, so they deliberately chose not to go looking for it. Painting themselves as another victim of the Police cover up at this stage is beyond contempt.

I am all for getting at the truth and bringing to justice the people involved in this cover up. People who allowed the victims families to go through years and years of hurt and pain, when they at any time could have ended their misery by telling the truth. I do not see what good it will do to go looking for they guy who actually allowed the gate to be opened for instance ..... a terrible mistake yes, but to me no more than that.

As for the folk who even want the directors of Sheffield Wednesday to take some of the blame ..... just about every ground in the UK was a **** hole in those days and I dare say Hillsborough was no worse or better than most. It had also hosted many FA cup semis without major incident .... no, this could have been any big ground in the 80s. Though having said all that, why Liverpool were allocated the smaller Leppings Lane end on the day is a bit of a mystery and always has been to me, and I dare say them.

Anyway ..... RIP the 96 ........ never again !!!

[wazoo1875]

What a brilliant post Bovril.

[greenginger]

Yep, excellent post Boveril.

I think the reason Notts Forest got the larger Hillsborough Cop end was they were first out of the Cup Semi draw and deemed the home team so got the home end of the ground.
Forest were getting pretty large crowds back then and I'm sure they sold their total ticket allocation so there was no real reason for Liverpool to claim they should have had the largest section of the stadium.

An avoidable tragedy if the game had only been played at Old Trafford, but its easy to say in hind-sight.

[Scouse Hibee]

Yep, excellent post Boveril.

I think the reason Notts Forest got the larger Hillsborough Cop end was they were first out of the Cup Semi draw and deemed the home team so got the home end of the ground.
Forest were getting pretty large crowds back then and I'm sure they sold their total ticket allocation so there was no real reason for Liverpool to claim they should have had the largest section of the stadium.

An avoidable tragedy if the game had only been played at Old Trafford, but its easy to say in hind-sight.


If I remember correctly when Liverpool questioned why we weren't given the Kop end at Hillsborough prior to the game especially as Leppings Lane had been inadequate the year before, the reason given was down to the logistics and routes of fans arriving from their respective cities.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If I remember correctly when Liverpool questioned why we weren't given the Kop end at Hillsborough prior to the game especially as Leppings Lane had been inadequate the year before, the reason given was down to the logistics and routes of fans arriving from their respective cities.

You do remember correctly SH.

[Posh Swanny]

just about every ground in the UK was a **** hole in those days and I dare say Hillsborough was no worse or better than most. It had also hosted many FA cup semis without major incident .... no, this could have been any big ground in the 80s.

1981 semi-final at Hillsborough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0)

To make the terrace safer after that incident, they brought in lateral fences so that each section could be closely monitored for over-crowding and the entrances to each section could be closed once full. Great idea in theory... helps if the police use their eyes on matchday though. (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/10/article-0-002ADC7D00000258-931_468x286.jpg)

[RIP]

The first thing to say about Hillsborough is that it was the ( if not inevitable ) then certainly forseeable ending to the events of the 15 or so years preceding it.

Football hooliganism had risen to such an extent over that period that the result was football grounds with 7 foot high iron fences surrounding the pitch. From that point of view football fans themselves were to an extent to blame for the circumstances which came together on that horrible afternoon. In truth fences were never going to be the long term answer to the hooligan problem, but the powers that be were too short sighted to see it, they looked at incidents like Heysel and concluded they were dealing with dangerous animals .... so what do you do with an animal?

It cant be denied that if Hillsborough hadnt had these fences the death toll certainly wouldnt have been 96. Anybody who ever ran onto the pitch to take part in a punch up with opposition fans, or ran along the terraces to throw a punch or a kick take note, short term stupidity, at least in part, led to long term tragedy.

The second factor in the disaster on the day, and the cover up which followed was, again, the mindset of the people in power at the time. The truth of the matter was that not only did they not understand the ( in those days ) mainly working class followers of the game and the sometimes out of proportion passion they displayed, they were frightened of it. Thatcher was the embodiment of that mindset, a mindset which also set her to hope for ( if not encourage ) a showdown with a powerfull union .. the miners gave her her wish and she in effect used the Police as a political tool .... not just to break the miners, but to bring the union movement as a whole to heel.

In view of that it cant be overlooked that she owed the Yorkshire Police force big time for the part they played in the mid 80s miners strikes ... there can also be little doubt that this fact enabled the people at the top in the Police to be not only confident that anything they told the Government would be willingly believed, but that the Government would stick by them in any enquiry that followed. As proved to be the case.

As for the Sun and their hideous little Nazi ex editor:

Can they honestly expect people to believe their contention that the story they printed at the time was done in good faith and only came to pass because the big bad Policemen had lied to them. In the face of a story of such stunning magnitude do they seriously expect people to fall for this. What newspaper, from the biggest paper on Earth to the most modest local rag would fail to get evidence from every angle before printing the stuff they did. Stuff they knew would cause the victims families and the people of the city of Liverpool incredible distress.

In the crowd that day there must have been lawyers, doctors and other men and women of good standing, even off duty Police officers and journalists, who would have been available for interview and who could have painted a very different picture of the events of that afternoon. The Sun wanted their story to be true, and the real truth would have got in the way of that, so they deliberately chose not to go looking for it. Painting themselves as another victim of the Police cover up at this stage is beyond contempt.

I am all for getting at the truth and bringing to justice the people involved in this cover up. People who allowed the victims families to go through years and years of hurt and pain, when they at any time could have ended their misery by telling the truth. I do not see what good it will do to go looking for they guy who actually allowed the gate to be opened for instance ..... a terrible mistake yes, but to me no more than that.

As for the folk who even want the directors of Sheffield Wednesday to take some of the blame ..... just about every ground in the UK was a **** hole in those days and I dare say Hillsborough was no worse or better than most. It had also hosted many FA cup semis without major incident .... no, this could have been any big ground in the 80s. Though having said all that, why Liverpool were allocated the smaller Leppings Lane end on the day is a bit of a mystery and always has been to me, and I dare say them.

Anyway ..... RIP the 96 ........ never again !!!

Thanks for this Bovril. It's absolutely crucial to set this tragic event in the context of the time. The responsibility for the safety of a paying customer rests solely with the venue management. Clubs now have excellent ticketing systems and a huge team of matchday stewards and their primary responsibility is crowd safety. Why in any civilised society would we allow a business to take a customer's money yet be so indifferent to their welfare. That was the attitude of football clubs, the football authorities and the government back in 1989.

This lack of duty of care led to the elimination of terraces which in itself has greatly diluted the football experience. Instead of introducing better ticket controls, stewarding and genuine care of fans, the governments reaction was simply to make us all sit down

The primary duty of our police forces is to prevent or deal with criminal activity - to maintain law and order. That is the extent of their training. The context of the time was that our game had almost been brought to a standstill by hooliganism and Thatcher's government was openly debating stopping large scale football competition. The press in the 80's and 90's was full of government reports, war on thugs, complaints that police and goverment were soft on crime. The UK goverment were still reeling from the reputational damage arising from the Heysel disaster and the resultant bans on all English teams participating in European competition. English fans were now considered **** and Liverpool hooligans were the **** of the **** in the eyes of the football and government authorities. The same year as Hillborough had seen 27 Liverpool hooligans in court for their part in the Heysel tragedy. See Otello Lorentini's account from 2005
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/apr/03/newsstory.sport

Pitch invasions had led to some matches being stopped. And who can forget the running battles after the Old Firm final in 1980. We were now on terracings, behind fences, in pens - herded like cattle, stared down by an ever more nervous police force under orders to crack down on our behaviour. Public safety had been completely forgotten as all the attention was directed at public order control. Not one organisation - football clubs, football authorities, safety boards, government departments, politicians or the media were interested in our welfare. There were only interested in 'controlling' us. When the events of Hillborough unfolded it was indeed an accident waiting to happen.

And when it did happen, there was no effective event plan, no viable emergency measures to put into effect. We only had the thin blue line - ordinary coppers, whose sole purpose was to prevent disorder. It would be disgraceful if the rank and file became the whipping boys of this tragedy and the real culprits - the football clubs, football authorities, councils, governments, senior police authorities and politicians get off scott free. That wouldn't be justice for the '96' - not in my eyes

[PatHead]

Great post Bovril.

The only part I disagree with is letting participants off with their crimes. The main reason being that 116 police officers changed their accounts. I cannot believe that not one of them broke ranks over the last 23 years and came forward to say that they had changed their account.

YES, NOT ONE OUT OF 116 HAD THE BALLS TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND COME OUT AND SAY WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

How can they sleep at night knowing and seeing the pain of the families time after time on television? I can only assume that there was an endemic culture of submitting false witness statements throughout the SY Police Force and the Force (Warwickshire?) that carried out the investigation. What or who else did they "fit up" in their careers? Every single one of these officers should and must be held to account. Starting with stripping them of pension rights. Jail for the senior ones.


By the way incase you don't know what happened to the Chairman of Sheffield Wednesday after the disaster I can tell you he was appointed as chairman of the Football League. Can't remember his name but he was the one before Brian Malwhinney. Jobs for the boys eh!

[Killiehibbie]

Great post Bovril.

The only part I disagree with is letting participants off with their crimes. The main reason being that 116 police officers changed their accounts. I cannot believe that not one of them broke ranks over the last 23 years and came forward to say that they had changed their account.

YES, NOT ONE OUT OF 116 HAD THE BALLS TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND COME OUT AND SAY WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

How can they sleep at night knowing and seeing the pain of the families time after time on television? I can only assume that there was an endemic culture of submitting false witness statements throughout the SY Police Force and the Force (Warwickshire?) that carried out the investigation. What or who else did they "fit up" in their careers? Every single one of these officers should and must be held to account. Starting with stripping them of pension rights. Jail for the senior ones.


By the way incase you don't know what happened to the Chairman of Sheffield Wednesday after the disaster I can tell you he was appointed as chairman of the Football League. Can't remember his name but he was the one before Brian Malwhinney. Jobs for the boys eh!All it would've taken was one of them to come forward and say he was forced to change his statement. I'm sure others would've followed but then again it is the biggest criminal game in the country aka the police.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Great post Bovril.

The only part I disagree with is letting participants off with their crimes. The main reason being that 116 police officers changed their accounts. I cannot believe that not one of them broke ranks over the last 23 years and came forward to say that they had changed their account.

YES, NOT ONE OUT OF 116 HAD THE BALLS TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND COME OUT AND SAY WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

How can they sleep at night knowing and seeing the pain of the families time after time on television? I can only assume that there was an endemic culture of submitting false witness statements throughout the SY Police Force and the Force (Warwickshire?) that carried out the investigation. What or who else did they "fit up" in their careers? Every single one of these officers should and must be held to account. Starting with stripping them of pension rights. Jail for the senior ones.


By the way incase you don't know what happened to the Chairman of Sheffield Wednesday after the disaster I can tell you he was appointed as chairman of the Football League. Can't remember his name but he was the one before Brian Malwhinney. Jobs for the boys eh!

Cheers PH.

I dont disagree with you ..... as you can see from my second last paragraph I was saying that people who made mistakes on the day itsself should not be a target I used the gate opener as an example because whoever it was must wake up in the middle of the night ... every night ... in a cold sweat with the thought of the consequences of what he did.

One exeption I should have made in my post was the idiot, or idiots, who left a fleet of ambulances sitting outside the ground when they must have been well aware that people were dying ..... I cant comprehend why they did it ... they must have been well aware that there was no fighting or riot inside the ground ... I would love somebody to explain that.

But anybody ... and I mean anybody ... who was involved in the lies and cover up in the years following Hillsborough should be tracked down and brought to account ... no question, no exeptions !!!

[Hibs On Tour]

Whilst on nothing like the same scale there was also visible overcrowding inn the Leppings Lane end at the 1988 semi. I think it was Bruce Grobellar who spoke in a documentary and said he was genuinely scared by how tightly packed it was when Liverpool scored that night. Liverpool as a club had repeatedly requested the much larger, and logistically more sensible, Kop end.

The whole day was set up for disaster because the capacity had been grossly overestimated.

:agree:

88 game had overcrowding also, just not on the same scale - due to Duckenfield not having implemented ticket checks at regular intervals prior to the actual turnstyles. That's what limited the crowd the previous year under a different commander. Had friends there both 88 and 89 and they [luckily] knew to go in the corner pens in 89 directly because of the overcrowding in 88. Sadly, too many weren't aware of the empty corner pens and just charged straight ahead to the open and seemingly unpoliced entrance to the centre pens with the tragic results we are all too aware of.

[Steve-O]

Yep, excellent post Boveril.

I think the reason Notts Forest got the larger Hillsborough Cop end was they were first out of the Cup Semi draw and deemed the home team so got the home end of the ground.
Forest were getting pretty large crowds back then and I'm sure they sold their total ticket allocation so there was no real reason for Liverpool to claim they should have had the largest section of the stadium.

An avoidable tragedy if the game had only been played at Old Trafford, but its easy to say in hind-sight.

Old Trafford was a piece of crap back then as well though, so who can say? Also think capacity was less than Hillsborough back then?

[lucky]

At today's game let's show our support for Justice for the 96 by having a minutes applause at 1506.

[Hibrandenburg]

Great post Bovril.

The only part I disagree with is letting participants off with their crimes. The main reason being that 116 police officers changed their accounts. I cannot believe that not one of them broke ranks over the last 23 years and came forward to say that they had changed their account.

YES, NOT ONE OUT OF 116 HAD THE BALLS TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND COME OUT AND SAY WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

How can they sleep at night knowing and seeing the pain of the families time after time on television? I can only assume that there was an endemic culture of submitting false witness statements throughout the SY Police Force and the Force (Warwickshire?) that carried out the investigation. What or who else did they "fit up" in their careers? Every single one of these officers should and must be held to account. Starting with stripping them of pension rights. Jail for the senior ones.


By the way incase you don't know what happened to the Chairman of Sheffield Wednesday after the disaster I can tell you he was appointed as chairman of the Football League. Can't remember his name but he was the one before Brian Malwhinney. Jobs for the boys eh!

This is what shocks me the most. The truth has stayed hidden for 23 years and despite the very public pain shown by the families and the obvious need for closure, not one of the guilty came forward and blew the whistle.

Disgusting and has had a huge knock on my belief in human nature to think that not one of those involved in the conspiracy had conscience enough to see justice done.

A sad day for our society indeed. RIP the 96.

[VickMackie]

I'd just like to say something quickly as enough time has been spent focusing on some of the posts here rather than the events.

I apologise to all of those whom I offended regarding my earlier comments on this thread. This goes to everyone who has either responded to, or read, my comments. I should have articulated my point a lot better, or not at all, and was naive to think I'd get anything other than the responses I did.

I appreciate my comments have offended and maybe even hurt some of the users of this site. I'm mostly regretful of taking attention away from the Hillsborough disaster and the key discussion points. My comments were no way intended to belittle the events of that day.

I hope this is taken in good faith. Vick.

[Scouse Hibee]

I'd just like to say something quickly as enough time has been spent focusing on some of the posts here rather than the events.

I apologise to all of those whom I offended regarding my earlier comments on this thread. This goes to everyone who has either responded to, or read, my comments. I should have articulated my point a lot better, or not at all, and was naive to think I'd get anything other than the responses I did.

I appreciate my comments have offended and maybe even hurt some of the users of this site. I'm mostly regretful of taking attention away from the Hillsborough disaster and the key discussion points. My comments were no way intended to belittle the events of that day.

I hope this is taken in good faith. Vick.


Fair enough :aok:

[Hibernia&Alba]

The truth will always out, even if it takes decades. Those who lost their lives at Hillsborough deserve for the the slanders from some quarters over the past 23 years to be disproved. Perhaps once their complete innocence in April 1989 is finally established their loved ones can start to move on. Nobody should lose their life when supporting their football team, and they certainly shouldn't be vilified by an ignorant tabloid press.


Let's hope we never have to witness such football tragedies again.

[Moulin Yarns]

In tribute to the 96

The Cathedral bell tolled, could never tell;
nor the Liver Birds, mute in their stone spell;
or the Mersey, though seagulls wailed, cursed, overhead,
in no language for the slandered dead...
not the raw, red throat of the Kop, keening,
or the cops' words, censored of meaning;
not the clock, slow handclapping the coroner's deadline,
or the memo to Thatcher, or the tabloid headline...
but fathers told of their daughters; the names of sons
on the lips of their mothers like prayers; lost ones
honoured for bitter years by orphan, cousin, wife -
not a matter of football, but of life.
Over this great city, light after long dark;
truth, the sweet silver song of the lark.

Thanks to Carol Ann Duffy.

[jacomo]

:aok:

Thanks for posting; that's a fine and poignant poem.

[Phil D. Rolls]

In tribute to the 96

The Cathedral bell tolled, could never tell;
nor the Liver Birds, mute in their stone spell;
or the Mersey, though seagulls wailed, cursed, overhead,
in no language for the slandered dead...
not the raw, red throat of the Kop, keening,
or the cops' words, censored of meaning;
not the clock, slow handclapping the coroner's deadline,
or the memo to Thatcher, or the tabloid headline...
but fathers told of their daughters; the names of sons
on the lips of their mothers like prayers; lost ones
honoured for bitter years by orphan, cousin, wife -
not a matter of football, but of life.
Over this great city, light after long dark;
truth, the sweet silver song of the lark.

Thanks to Carol Ann Duffy.

That is fantastic!

[JimBHibees]

Watched a really good documentary on Hillsborough yesterday. It is on Anytime on Sky plus called Hillsborough remembered. Completely heartbreaking the story of the Hicks family whose dad Trevor is head of the Supporters Group. He went to the game with his two teenage daughters and wife. His wife was in the stand while Trevor and his daughters were in the Leppings Lane end. His teenage girls usually went off to be with mates at the games so he ended up in the side pens while his daughters were in the central ones. He obviously became concerned realising the overcrowding that was happening in the central bit while the end ones were relatively empty.

When the game was called off he managed to get on the pitch and noticed both daughters laid out on the pitch. He was giving one of them mouth to mouth when an ambulance arrived and his other daughter was put on it along with numerous others. He then had the awful choice of staying with one or going. He went with the daughter who was in the ambulance thinking that other ambulances would be along soon to pick up the other one. Obviously that didnt happen.

His wife got to the hospital hours later and was told the daughter in the ambulance had died however she wasnt able to see her as she was now the property of the Sheffield coroner. :confused: I think they then made their way back to the ground where they were told that the other daughter had also died and was in a body bag. She was allowed to give this daughter a hug and asked why was she still warm, she was given no answer. Obviously one of the 41 that may have survived.

Completely heartbreaking and appalling especially the accidental death verdict when Duckenfield the cop in charge had ordered the opening of the entry gate without closing off the tunnel to the central pens and then lied to the FA saying that fans had stormed the gate.

Completely shocking all of it.

[Scott Allan Key]

In tribute to the 96

The Cathedral bell tolled, could never tell;
nor the Liver Birds, mute in their stone spell;
or the Mersey, though seagulls wailed, cursed, overhead,
in no language for the slandered dead...
not the raw, red throat of the Kop, keening,
or the cops' words, censored of meaning;
not the clock, slow handclapping the coroner's deadline,
or the memo to Thatcher, or the tabloid headline...
but fathers told of their daughters; the names of sons
on the lips of their mothers like prayers; lost ones
honoured for bitter years by orphan, cousin, wife -
not a matter of football, but of life.
Over this great city, light after long dark;
truth, the sweet silver song of the lark.

Thanks to Carol Ann Duffy.


Thanks for posting.

[cad]

Different whens its your own front door Kelvin ,well done to Alex Thomson .




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R4oiBxXfNE

[Pretty Boy]

Wouldn't even give the **** the satisfaction of thinking anyone cares what he has to say.

A 'man' best ignored.

[Saorsa]

Wouldn't even give the **** the satisfaction of thinking anyone cares what he has to say.

A 'man' best ignored.Good tae see him getting it though, always hated that slimy ****.

[Sylar]

An ******** hounding an ******** really.

[lucky]

Alex Thompson is fast becoming best reporter in the UK

[Pretty Boy]

Alex Thompson is fast becoming best reporter in the UK

His work on Bloody Sunday and the Gulf War is fantastic.

His stuff on Rangers isn't bad either of course.

[Hibercelona]

An ******** hounding an ******** really.

What do you have against Alex?

He's one of the very few decent reports in the whole of the UK.

[hibsbollah]

Human life should be sacrosanct. Full stop.


....I'd make an exception for Kelvin McKenzie though. Every time he opens his mouth I'm convinced he is actually Beelzebub walking the Earth.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Kelvin MacKenzie is an absolute weapon.

If I wanted tae listen tae an ersehole I'd fart. The end.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Human life should be sacrosanct. Full stop.


....I'd make an exception for Kelvin McKenzie though. Every time he opens his mouth I'm convinced he is actually Beelzebub walking the Earth.

He's someone that likes the sound of his own voice, so much so that he talks so much he eventually contradicts himself. Hopefully people will be less likely to listen to him now.

The Hillsborough reporting was inexcusable. In a time before social media it was a lot harder to get the facts on a story, to distort the truth and even to lie was wrong.

Maybe now, people will start to question other Sun stories over the years. Particularly what happened in the miner's strike.

[McIntosh]

Alex Thompson is fast becoming best reporter in the UK
:top marks

[hibee_nation]

What do you have against Alex?

He's one of the very few decent reports in the whole of the UK.

He was very naughty towards his other team. Kept on pestering them for the truth.

[Hibercelona]

He was very naughty towards his other team. Kept on pestering them for the truth.

Good. :aok:

Compare that to the likes of Jim Traynor who talks utter guff to hide his own clubs shame.

[Sylar]

He was very naughty towards his other team. Kept on pestering them for the truth.

I've no arguments that MacKenzie is pond **** and deserves to face intense interrogation but do you really consider that to be a good example of ethical journalism? Just because MacKenzie personifies a lot of what is wrong with tabloid media, doesn't mean the same standards we hold him up against should be tossed aside as an exception.

That was cringeworthy, highly unprofessional and provided absolutely zero new insight into the ongoing saga.

[JohnStephens91]

I've no arguments that MacKenzie is pond **** and deserves to face intense interrogation but do you really consider that to be a good example of ethical journalism? Just because MacKenzie personifies a lot of what is wrong with tabloid media, doesn't mean the same standards we hold him up against should be tossed aside as an exception.

That was cringeworthy, highly unprofessional and provided absolutely zero new insight into the ongoing saga.

I didn't like it when I watched it, I'm a journalism student and I know this is not the right way to get someone to talk about anything. Absolutely horrid to watch, both of them were petty.

[Broken Gnome]

I didn't like it when I watched it, I'm a journalism student and I know this is not the right way to get someone to talk about anything. Absolutely horrid to watch, both of them were petty.

Right enough. People will automatically think Thomson's a media genius because in a football sense he's involved in exposing figures of hate for us. Doesn't disguise the fact he comes across as a pretty lairy and arrogant guy these days, where he wants to be part of the story.

[Spike Mandela]

Alex Thomson needs to be careful attacking the media establishment and doorstepping one of his own. If he hasn't got supportive bosses he could end up never working again.

[Peevemor]

Right enough. People will automatically think Thomson's a media genius because in a football sense he's involved in exposing figures of hate for us. Doesn't disguise the fact he comes across as a pretty lairy and arrogant guy these days, where he wants to be part of the story.

Exactly, he knew that he wouldn't get any decent answers from McKenzie - the whole thing was set up to improve his image as a tenacious journalist in front of the camera(s).

[Bad Martini]

Mckenzie is a complete and utter ****. If he told me the earth was round I'd double check.

**** of the lowest order who deserves no further discussion.

Hope the *******s who lied, committed perjury, amended evidence and contributed to what is culpable manslaughter are ****ing locked up for a long time as well.

*******s.

ENDOF

[Sylar]

Mckenzie is a complete and utter ****. If he told me the earth was round I'd double check.

**** of the lowest order who deserves no further discussion.

Hope the *******s who lied, committed perjury, amended evidence and contributed to what is culpable manslaughter are ****ing locked up for a long time as well.

*******s.

ENDOF

I don't think many folk would disagree with you BM.

MacKenzie has been hammered for years about journalist integrity, poor ethics and disregard of people in the name of stories.

These same ethics should not be simply tossed aside because it's suddenly him who's on the receiving end.

There are standards to follow and sadly, the same standards which he flouts should protect him from intrusions such as that. We can't pick and chose when they're applied.

He should face a trial or an inquest but it should be done in a proper manner. Not resorting to gutter press tactics.

[Hibernia&Alba]

As a Manchester United fan with family in the area, I hope the respect due on Sunday at Anfield is fully adhered to. Anything less would be a complete disgrace. I don't want to hear any excuses regarding Munich songs or Heysel, we're talking about grown men respecting the agony of bereaved families in a different place. Humanity is bigger than a game of football, and all right thinking people should be on the side of truth.

[JimBHibees]

Just read this on the BBC website about a 15 year old who didnt come back from the game. Truly heartbreaking and absolutely despicable the coercion used to change some of the witnesses statements.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19671870

[Scouse Hibee]

As a Manchester United fan with family in the area, I hope the respect due on Sunday at Anfield is fully adhered to. Anything less would be a complete disgrace. I don't want to hear any excuses regarding Munich songs or Heysel, we're talking about grown men respecting the agony of bereaved families in a different place. Humanity is bigger than a game of football, and all right thinking people should be on the side of truth.



:agree: I hope the mindless morons from both sides show some respect.

[mikewynne]

An ******** hounding an ******** really.

You ever read anything Alex Thomson has ever written? Fantastic reporter!

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've no arguments that MacKenzie is pond **** and deserves to face intense interrogation but do you really consider that to be a good example of ethical journalism? Just because MacKenzie personifies a lot of what is wrong with tabloid media, doesn't mean the same standards we hold him up against should be tossed aside as an exception.

That was cringeworthy, highly unprofessional and provided absolutely zero new insight into the ongoing saga.

I don't know. It suggests to me that MacKenzie is running scared, and there is likely to be further developments. It was a more powerful way to illustrate the story than a simple "no comment".

[Kato]

I just thought it was a journalist worthy of the term carpeting a hack using that method with a bit satire in mind.

Anything that makes McKenzie squirm is ok by me.

[Big Ed]

Well wadaya know?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ios-hillsborough-exclusive-revealed--the-critical-role-of-jack-straw-8165990.html

Jack Straw is a ****ing disgrace!

[DevonLoch]

Fantastic display at the start of today's game at Anfield - THE TRUTH and JUSTICE spelled out across two sides of the ground

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19691732

[JimBHibees]

Well wadaya know?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ios-hillsborough-exclusive-revealed--the-critical-role-of-jack-straw-8165990.html

Jack Straw is a ****ing disgrace!

Sums up that particular government I am afraid. Cover ups at every turn.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I watched the game on telly today and was so happy to see the efforts both clubs made on such a big day. It was good to see the United fans laying tributes at the Anfield memorial beofre kick off, then the joint interview with Rodgers and Fergie and Bobby Charlton taking flowers on to the pitch. I know Sky Sports are reporting problematic singing after the game, but the most important fact is that the memory of the 96 was honored by all right thinking people. I hope their families were able to use today to build upon the Hillsborough Report earlier in the week. Any idiots who undermined the occasion are infinitely less important than the victims of May 1989. Justice at last.

[Jonnyboy]

I watched the game on telly today and was so happy to see the efforts both clubs made on such a big day. It was good to see the United fans laying tributes at the Anfield memorial beofre kick off, then the joint interview with Rodgers and Fergie and Bobby Charlton taking flowers on to the pitch. I know Sky Sports are reporting problematic singing after the game, but the most important fact is that the memory of the 96 was honored by all right thinking people. I hope their families were able to use today to build upon the Hillsborough Report earlier in the week. Any idiots who undermined the occasion are infinitely less important than the victims of May 1989. Justice at last.

You're spot in in saying the important thing was that the memory of the 96 was acknowledged by both clubs and both sets of fans but I have to say I was appalled by how short a time it took for the nastiness to resurface. The fans of both clubs, who took part in singing these taunts should be ashamed of themselves. What is wrong with these people?

[HH81]

What taunts?

I missed the start as was driving but seen above link, i think man u fans should have stayed quite during youll never walk alone or what about sending a massive statemen to football by the whole away end joining in. Not to be.

[Jonnyboy]

What taunts?

The ones sung by each set of fans to the other. Clearly heard on Sky Sports who 'helpfully' put up sub titles when reveiewing the evidence later.

[Hibernia&Alba]

You're spot in in saying the important thing was that the memory of the 96 was acknowledged by both clubs and both sets of fans but I have to say I was appalled by how short a time it took for the nastiness to resurface. The fans of both clubs, who took part in singing these taunts should be ashamed of themselves. What is wrong with these people?

Agreed. Why grown men feel the need to sink to such depths is hard to understand. Rivalry has its place in sport, we all enjoy it, but a game of football will never matter in the way human life does. I don't care who sang what first, today was about remembering innocent loss of life, even when the official story was to paint them as less than innocent. The relatives of the dead are today's story, and the vast majority made sure that's the case.

[ronaldo7]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/english/fans-chants-mar-day-of-emotion-on-merseyside-1-2543200

Where's your Munich song from the United supporters, and some morons running at the visiting supporters doing an aeroplane impression.

You always get some eh:rolleyes:

[Pretty Boy]

Such a shame that the fantastic effort by both clubs pre match was spoiled by 'fans' of both clubs only a short while later.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I don't think many folk would disagree with you BM.

MacKenzie has been hammered for years about journalist integrity, poor ethics and disregard of people in the name of stories.

These same ethics should not be simply tossed aside because it's suddenly him who's on the receiving end.

There are standards to follow and sadly, the same standards which he flouts should protect him from intrusions such as that. We can't pick and chose when they're applied.

He should face a trial or an inquest but it should be done in a proper manner. Not resorting to gutter press tactics.

A BBC editor posted a blog saying that what Thomson did was within their editorial guidelines, because MacKenzie declined interview requests and it was in public interest because of the recent interview with a Sun reporter saying that he had not wanted the story done that way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/blogcollegeofjournalism/posts/Doorstepping-Kelvin-what-would-the-BBC-have-done-

Methinks your Hunnish friends are influencing your view of Thomson.

[lapsedhibee]

Such a shame that the fantastic effort by both clubs pre match was spoiled by 'fans' of both clubs only a short while later.

Why have you put fans in inverted commas? :confused:

[--------]

You're spot in in saying the important thing was that the memory of the 96 was acknowledged by both clubs and both sets of fans but I have to say I was appalled by how short a time it took for the nastiness to resurface. The fans of both clubs, who took part in singing these taunts should be ashamed of themselves. What is wrong with these people?


:agree: The two clubs seem to have done everything right, but I think we have to accept that every team has a number of moral imbeciles among its supporters who just have no sense of decency at all.

Sky's putting it up in the highlights with sub-titles just exacerbates the problem for next time, I'm afraid - nothing like educating thugs and morons to know the right words to the chants and songs you're SUPPOSED to be condemning ...

[Pretty Boy]

Why have you put fans in inverted commas? :confused:

Because someone who runs onto the pitch making a crashing aeroplane gesture, sings a song about Munich or chanted about Hillsborough or Heysel yesterday is barely deserving of the term human and, imo, aren't real fans as they've shown zero respect for their respective club.

That anybody in a Liverpool shirt yesterday though mocking Man Utd fans about Munich was funny after the events of the last couple of weeks beggars belief. That anybody following Man Utd would ignore a letter from their manager and respond to a taunt about their own tragedy by mocking someone else's is beyond stupidity.

[lapsedhibee]

Because someone who runs onto the pitch making a crashing aeroplane gesture, sings a song about Munich or chanted about Hillsborough or Heysel yesterday is barely deserving of the term human and, imo, aren't real fans as they've shown zero respect for their respective club.

That anybody in a Liverpool shirt yesterday though mocking Man Utd fans about Munich was funny after the events of the last couple of weeks beggars belief. That anybody following Man Utd would ignore a letter from their manager and respond to a taunt about their own tragedy by mocking someone else's is beyond stupidity.

Still fans though. As the argument on here frequently goes, they've paid the same entrance money as fans with half a brain, so why shouldn't they express themselves? Don't think it does beggar belief, nor is it beyond stupidity - it was always on the cards, which is why the two clubs made such a public attempt to damp it down.

PS Would a ghost written letter with Pat Fenlon's name at the bottom make much difference to what you believed?

[JimBHibees]

:agree: The two clubs seem to have done everything right, but I think we have to accept that every team has a number of moral imbeciles among its supporters who just have no sense of decency at all.

Sky's putting it up in the highlights with sub-titles just exacerbates the problem for next time, I'm afraid - nothing like educating thugs and morons to know the right words to the chants and songs you're SUPPOSED to be condemning ...

Agree completely irresponsible.

[JimBHibees]

Still fans though. As the argument on here frequently goes, they've paid the same entrance money as fans with half a brain, so why shouldn't they express themselves? Don't think it does beggar belief, nor is it beyond stupidity - it was always on the cards, which is why the two clubs made such a public attempt to damp it down.

PS Would a ghost written letter with Pat Fenlon's name at the bottom make much difference to what you believed?

Please tell me you are not trying to condone the actions of morons who glorify in the deaths of innocent people.

[Pretty Boy]

Still fans though. As the argument on here frequently goes, they've paid the same entrance money as fans with half a brain, so why shouldn't they express themselves? Don't think it does beggar belief, nor is it beyond stupidity - it was always on the cards, which is why the two clubs made such a public attempt to damp it down.

PS Would a ghost written letter with Pat Fenlon's name at the bottom make much difference to what you believed?

Maybe doesn't beggar belief, empty vessels and all that. However it certainly is beyond stupidity. Paying an entrance fee of £40 or whatever doesn't give someone free reign to glorify in the death of innocent people, or express themselves as you put it.

[lapsedhibee]

Please tell me you are not trying to condone the actions of morons who glorify in the deaths of innocent people.

They're football fans, every bit as much as other football fans who don't do what they do.

They don't annoy me any more than the venom-filled football fans who come to ER and shout abuse at their own players for 90 minutes. Roughly equally cretinous. Probably makes me a bad person, but there you go.


Maybe doesn't beggar belief, empty vessels and all that. However it certainly is beyond stupidity. Paying an entrance fee of £40 or whatever doesn't give someone free reign to glorify in the death of innocent people, or express themselves as you put it.

As far as I can see the two fitba clubs did everything they could to draw a line under the worst of the fan animosity. At the end of their efforts, it was still there. Some football fans are incorrigible. So what's the next step, beyond extended tut-tutting? Identify and ban those fans who took part (as Joe Jordan recommends), or make it a criminal offence - if it's not already - and lock them up?

I hope the families of Hillsborough victims now get what they want - prosecutions and jail time for the worst offenders. I also hope no government laws are enacted in the current sensitive climate which attempt to define what is and is not offensive to other fitba fans. Falsifying polis testimony is in my view wrongdoing of a whole different order than being exceptionally/beyond stupid and making aeroplane noises.

[Hibercelona]

They're football fans, every bit as much as other football fans who don't do what they do.

They don't annoy me any more than the venom-filled football fans who come to ER and shout abuse at their own players for 90 minutes. Roughly equally cretinous. Probably makes me a bad person, but there you go.



As far as I can see the two fitba clubs did everything they could to draw a line under the worst of the fan animosity. At the end of their efforts, it was still there. Some football fans are incorrigible. So what's the next step, beyond extended tut-tutting? Identify and ban those fans who took part (as Joe Jordan recommends), or make it a criminal offence - if it's not already - and lock them up?

I hope the families of Hillsborough victims now get what they want - prosecutions and jail time for the worst offenders. I also hope no government laws are enacted in the current sensitive climate which attempt to define what is and is not offensive to other fitba fans. Falsifying polis testimony is in my view wrongdoing of a whole different order than being exceptionally/beyond stupid and making aeroplane noises.

So you think that "fans" singing songs and glorifying the death and tragedies that have occurred are no worse than fans who shout at football players because of a poor performance?

Have a word.