Can big crowds ever return to Scottish football?

[theonlywayisup]

Jim Spence asks? From his blog, it is interesting to look at the average attendances for 1948/49.
Aberdeen 24,200
Dundee 24,532
Celtic 37,171
Hearts 28,196
Hibernian 27,627
Rangers 44,600

It was a boom period post-war for the game and the clubs outside of the Glasgow pair never came close to repeating those enormous crowds. However, while the Glasgow two were still better supported, the gap was much narrower than now and often the two were split by other clubs in the race for the top prize.

Dundee were pipped by one point as Rangers took the title in 1949. The season before, Hibs took the title by two points from Rangers and Celtic finished 12th. In 1950, Rangers again nabbed the top spot, one point ahead of Hibs, who were followed by Hearts, East Fife then Celtic. The following year, Hibs were champions with Rangers and Dundee level on points behind them. It is a snapshot of a time when Scottish football was much more competitive than today. Is it simply wishful thinking that we can find a way to reinvigorate our game and bring a real competitive edge back to it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2012/03/as_the_debate_about_change.html

Probably, almost certainly, the teams outwith the Old Firm will never get as close in terms of average attendances. What a great pity!

[ScottB]

The Old Firm only have the crowds they do through a mixture of always winning things, and for many of their fans, the sheer hate fuelled rivalry between them. Two years from now I wonder how full Ibrox and Parkhead will be...

As for the rest of us, crowds would be bigger if it was cheaper to go first and foremost, a better, more interesting product, a less repetitive and more competitive league set up would also help, but really, it's cost. A guy at my work summed it up perfectly when he said a game shouldn't cost more than an amount that would 'make you think,' basically priced at a point so that if someone suggested going a long, you'd just agree without thinking, say it was £10 - £15 for a basic seat, which isn't far off the cost of going to the cinema really, you'd get far, far more walk ups. Whether that would lead to more revenue overall I don't know, but you'd get more bodies a long.

[Part/Time Supporter]

No, because what you've seen in football over the last 20 years or so is a massive concentration of power in the hands of an elite. It's the same all over Europe. Even the Old Firm, who initially benefitted from this, are now realising that they are locked out of this elite because it favours clubs from the handful of countries with large TV markets.

[Mikey]

No, because what you've seen in football over the last 20 years or so is a massive concentration of power in the hands of an elite. It's the same all over Europe. Even the Old Firm, who initially benefitted from this, are now realising that they are locked out of this elite because it favours clubs from the handful of countries with large TV markets.

Agreed. And Scotland in particular struggles because we have England right on our doorstep and Sky is pumping vast amounts of money into their leagues, meaning that every team bar the OF struggles to compete with anything above league 1 or 2. It's just one of the reasons why people are drifting away.

[Barney McGrew]

The season you're talking about would still have seen gate money split between home and away teams. If that happened again then the gap between the rest of the teams and the OF might shorten, but as it sits right now they have too much financial muscle.

[Kaiser1962]

The season you're talking about would still have seen gate money split between home and away teams. If that happened again then the gap between the rest of the teams and the OF might shorten, but as it sits right now they have too much financial muscle.

And a wage cap of £12pw which meant there was no financial benefit to the player for moving club.

[PatHead]

And a wage cap of £12pw which meant there was no financial benefit to the player for moving club.

Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

[CalgaryHibs]

Jim Spence asks? From his blog, it is interesting to look at the average attendances for 1948/49.
Aberdeen 24,200
Dundee 24,532
Celtic 37,171
Hearts 28,196
Hibernian 27,627
Rangers 44,600

It was a boom period post-war for the game and the clubs outside of the Glasgow pair never came close to repeating those enormous crowds. However, while the Glasgow two were still better supported, the gap was much narrower than now and often the two were split by other clubs in the race for the top prize.

Dundee were pipped by one point as Rangers took the title in 1949. The season before, Hibs took the title by two points from Rangers and Celtic finished 12th. In 1950, Rangers again nabbed the top spot, one point ahead of Hibs, who were followed by Hearts, East Fife then Celtic. The following year, Hibs were champions with Rangers and Dundee level on points behind them. It is a snapshot of a time when Scottish football was much more competitive than today. Is it simply wishful thinking that we can find a way to reinvigorate our game and bring a real competitive edge back to it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2012/03/as_the_debate_about_change.html

Probably, almost certainly, the teams outwith the Old Firm will never get as close in terms of average attendances. What a great pity!

One word NO!

[Kaiser1962]

Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

It was very rare. Units like the Famous Five, Rangers iron curtain defence, Hearts Conn, Bauld Wardhaugh, or even Celtic as late as 67, would barely last a season and a half in modern tiimes.

For those that are working it out £12 in 1947 would be equivalent to £395.04 today. Even we could compete with that I think.

[blackpoolhibs]

All we need to do is fund womens football, then the crowds will flock back. :wink:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Take live football of the tele, and if people want to see it there is only one way they can do that.

[Keith_M]

The season you pointed to was during a period that was completely out of the ordinary for crowds at football matches. Apparently, it was largely related to the feeling of the population after the war. As pointed out by other posters, many clubs had fantastic teams and there wasn't as much incentive for players to move clubs.

It would be more realistic to point to the average attendances between say 1920 and 1980. I'd be willing to bet that the average attendance over that time for most clubs was about the same as it is now (except the OF, who have gone through the highest point in their histories in the last 15-20 years).

[The_Todd]

Ticket prices have risen disproportionately. Back in those days going to the football wouldn't have blown such a massive hole in the budget. Many factors include the spiralling players wages and the fact attendances are capped by all-seater stadia I'd guess.

[LancsHibs]

In 1948 there was little else to do but go to the fitba on a Saturday afternoon

[Pretty Boy]

Looks like playing the bigotry angle is pretty lucrative.

[Scouse Hibee]

3pm KO on a Saturday, when the word weekend meant something, retailers closed half day and a day out meant going somewhere not shopping!

[jgl07]

Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

Are you joking? Many of the top clubs from England were stuffed with Scottish players even before the maximum wage was abolished.

How come Matt Busby, Bobby Johnstone, Dave Ewing, Andy Black, Jacie Plenderleith and Alex Herd played for Manchester City? I could add Bill Shankley and Tommy Docherty playing for Preston North End amongst numerous others.

[PatHead]

Are you joking? Many of the top clubs from England were stuffed with Scottish players even before the maximum wage was abolished.

How come Matt Busby, Bobby Johnstone, Dave Ewing, Andy Black, Jacie Plenderleith and Alex Herd played for Manchester City? I could add Bill Shankley and Tommy Docherty playing for Preston North End amongst numerous others.

Yes but other such as Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly etc never felt the need to move away along the M8 far less to England. Often it was the clubs who felt the need to move players on (Tommy Younger?) with the player having no say in the matter. Others like Dave Mackay actively sought a move. Just saying there was less of a disparity between England and Scotland with wages.

It isn't that long ago wages between Hibs and what are now middle ranking EPL clubs were more or less the same.

[marinello59]

Yes but other such as Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly etc never felt the need to move away along the M8 far less to England. Often it was the clubs who felt the need to move players on (Tommy Younger?) with the player having no say in the matter. Others like Dave Mackay actively sought a move. Just saying there was less of a disparity between England and Scotland with wages.

It isn't that long ago wages between Hibs and what are now middle ranking EPL clubs were more or less the same.

Virtually every English team had a backbone of Scottish players. Visible wages may have been similar but there were other inducements on offer.

[PatHead]

What did they have EBTs even then?

[ballengeich]

Yes but other such as Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly etc never felt the need to move away along the M8 far less to England. Often it was the clubs who felt the need to move players on (Tommy Younger?) with the player having no say in the matter. Others like Dave Mackay actively sought a move. Just saying there was less of a disparity between England and Scotland with wages.

It isn't that long ago wages between Hibs and what are now middle ranking EPL clubs were more or less the same.

I agree with you about the lesser disparity for established players. The difference was more in the number of opportunities. At the time we're discussing, a lot of the Scottish players in good English teams had moved south from school without ever playing professionally here. The ones who were picked up by the top Scottish clubs had less financial incentive to move away, particularly before England abolished their maximum pay rule.

That continued into the 80s when the Aberdeen and Dundee United teams were able to retain the majority of their stars. I believe Willie Miller got an offer from Rangers to leave Aberdeen, but didn't think it was worth moving for the increase on offer. The great Dundee United of that time were said to be on poor basic pay (and long contracts), but could make huge sums from win bonuses and wouldn't have been much better off by moving south or west.

Going back to the original subject of the thread the answer is probably no. When I started attending ER I could go there for about the same price as a cinema ticket. If I'd had to pay three times the price of a movie it's unlikely I'd have become a regular, purely for financial reasons.

[Kaiser1962]

Virtually every English team had a backbone of Scottish players. Visible wages may have been similar but there were other inducements on offer.

A lot of Scots guys settled in different areas post war, having been barracksed outwith Scotland during the war itself. I am sure Matt Busby played for us in wartime because he was stationed here.

Johny foreigner was pretty junk at this time as well.

[Jonnyboy]

A lot of Scots guys settled in different areas post war, having been barracksed outwith Scotland during the war itself. I am sure Matt Busby played for us in wartime because he was stationed here.

Johny foreigner was pretty junk at this time as well.

Indeed he did :agree:

http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/player.php?playerid=555

[Kaiser1962]

I am sure Fergie said something along the lines of when he joined ManU he couldnt return to Aberdeen for players as the guys there were on more money than was on offer at United. Though some players had been persuaded to make the switch (Strachan two years before Ferguson) it is clear the disparity in wages was minimal.


I agree with you about the lesser disparity for established players. The difference was more in the number of opportunities. At the time we're discussing, a lot of the Scottish players in good English teams had moved south from school without ever playing professionally here. The ones who were picked up by the top Scottish clubs had less financial incentive to move away, particularly before England abolished their maximum pay rule.

That continued into the 80s when the Aberdeen and Dundee United teams were able to retain the maj Iority of their stars. believe Willie Miller got an offer from Rangers to leave Aberdeen, but didn't think it was worth moving for the increase on offer. The great Dundee United of that time were said to be on poor basic pay (and long contracts), but could make huge sums from win bonuses and wouldn't have been much better off by moving south or west.

Going back to the original subject of the thread the answer is probably no. When I started attending ER I could go there for about the same price as a cinema ticket. If I'd had to pay three times the price of a movie it's unlikely I'd have become a regular, purely for financial reasons.

[Kato]

And a wage cap of £12pw which meant there was no financial benefit to the player for moving club.

Wasn't the wage cap in England only? Can't remember ever reading it applied in Scotland.


Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

Mmm. Not quite true. Plenty players went down south from Scotland. Mainly because of the signing on fees offered.

[ballengeich]

Wasn't the wage cap in England only? Can't remember ever reading it applied in Scotland.

That's right. It was abolished in England in 1961 after court action by the players' union - leader Jimmy Hill.

[Kaiser1962]

Wasn't the wage cap in England only? Can't remember ever reading it applied in Scotland .

I think thats right Kato but it would undoubtedly have been used as a benchmark for maximum wages here.



Mmm. Not quite true. Plenty players went down south from Scotland. Mainly because of the signing on fees offered.

I think most of them were already there to be fair. Only one of significance immediately post war was Jimmy Delaney who moved from Celtic to Man United for £4000 but moved back to Aberdeen in 1950. In the late forties United paid a British record £18k for a guy called John Downie who was a Scot but never played in this country. Then there were guys like Tommy Docherty who joined PNE because he couldnt get in the Celtic team. Arsenal had a few Scots as well but guys like Archie McCaulay and Alex Forbes had played in Scotland pre war but settled in England post war.

There was movement as you say but, like Delaney, it was more of an even playing field, maybe because of the maximum wage in England.

[Kato]

I think thats right Kato but it would undoubtedly have been used as a benchmark for maximum wages here.

I think most of them were already there to be fair. Only one of significance immediately post war was Jimmy Delaney who moved from Celtic to Man United for £4000 but moved back to Aberdeen in 1950. In the late forties United paid a British record £18k for a guy called John Downie who was a Scot but never played in this country. Then there were guys like Tommy Docherty who joined PNE because he couldnt get in the Celtic team. Arsenal had a few Scots as well but guys like Archie McCaulay and Alex Forbes had playing in Scotland pre war but settled in England post war.

There was movement as you say but, like Delaney, it was more of an even playing field, maybe because of the maximum wage in England.

In Eddie Turnbull's book I'm sure he says the main inducement for players moving South was the signing on fees offered - Matt Busby was determined to take Turnbull to Man U but for whatever reason it never worked out. It did for Bobby Johnstone who moved for 22,000 Grand. Also pretty sure there would be under the counter payments made.

From personal memory from the late 60's to the late 90's there was a big percentage of Scots in any given English club side.

Just saying there was movement and plenty of it, despite no wage cap here.

[Purple & Green]

I think Mikey and p/t nail the main points in this debate - but I think we need debate in Scotland about a blueprint for a way forward. Community clubs with outside funding is something I'm sure has been looked into. The problem with the spl years - since 1998 - is that our league is now more uncompetitive than its ever been, so who wants to watch that?

[Purple & Green]

In Eddie Turnbull's book I'm sure he says the main inducement for players moving South was the signing on fees offered - Matt Busby was determined to take Turnbull to Man U but for whatever reason it never worked out. It did for Bobby Johnstone who moved for 22,000 Grand. Also pretty sure there would be under the counter payments made.

From personal memory from the late 60's to the late 90's there was a big percentage of Scots in any given English club side.

Just saying there was movement and plenty of it, despite no wage cap here.

I don't have Tony Smith's book to hand but as I remember the insinuation in it was that the Hibs players under Harry Swan were the best paid under the counter players in Scotland.

The other big difference - as I'm sure you remember - is that players prior to 1980? Simply couldn't move if clubs didn't release their registration - eg if lawrie Reilly had wanted to move and Hibs didn't want to let him go then he went nowhere. Different to now when players just run down their contract.

[yeezus.]

This is a tough one.

I feel more qualified to talk about Stranraer FC as I have been to Stair Park more often than I have been to Easter Road.

With the demise of Rangers, I seriously thought the 2 supporters buses leaving the town would shrink. This hasn't happened, our local derby against Ayr United last week drew in 700. It's alright, but these fans just aren't there when Stranraer play East Stirlingshire or Elgin...

[gegs70]

I think we have lost our identity we are too busy trying to teach people a standard type of football that we may well lose the parts we likrd about our game!!

[gegs70]

I think we have lost our identity we are too busy trying to teach people a standard type of football that we may well lose the parts we likrd about our game!!

[Septimus]

Post war you were almost certain to see a good game when Dundee, Partick Thistle, Falkirk Raith Rovers etc were on the park. These teams have been frozen out for the greater good. There was a boy in my class at school in North Fife who was a Rangers supporter. He was considered a slightly deranged rarity. Most of the youngsters there supported East Fife (who were a class act at that time) or Dundee who were even better.

The competition has been drained out of Scottish football. There is no point in watching when the playing field is tilted so far one way and then re-tilted the other for the second half.

[NAE NOOKIE]

A lot of valid comments on here. The rise of televised football and the especially having the EPL and Champions League shoved in our faces all the time has led to a perception that our domestic football is rubbish. Its not as good as it used to be I suppose, but I think we blow it out of proportion because we see the best players on the telly all the time. In the 40s nobody had a telly.

The price is an issue as well. Nearly £30 for a derby ticket is too much for a Scottish football match.

We will never reach the crowds in the OP again, but what we should be aiming for is a decent realistic increase. For instance, given that the population of Scotland is as high as its ever been, its not unreasonable for Hibs to be aiming for 13,000 home supporters and the Yams for 15,000, as should Aberdeen. The SPL clubs below that should be aiming for between 6 and 8,000 home fans, with the exeption of the likes of Ross County for whom 5,000 would be very good.

That IMO is possible ..... but we really need to see a number of changes in pricing, variety of clubs in the SPL, and better advertising of the game.

[Ozyhibby]

Whatever our problems are in Scottish football it's not our lack of supporters.
Look at the table below.


Source: EFS (attendances), Wikipedia (populations).

Figures are "1 in X", i.e. "1 in 373 Scottish people attend top-tier football".


Iceland... 310
Cyprus... 357
Scotland... 373
Norway... 607
Denmark... 668
Montenegro... 685
Switzerland... 704
Netherlands... 849
Belgium... 922
Portugal... 1,038
Austria... 1,061
Luxembourg... 1,089

Sweden... 1,429
Greece... 1,484
England... 1,506
Spain... 1,607
Israel... 1,846
Germany... 1,924
Northern Ireland... 1,938
Bosnia-Herzegovina... 2,003
Czech Rep... 2,181
Croatia... 2,217
Slovakia... 2,256
Finland... 2,415

Italy... 2,421
Slovenia... 2,422
Eire... 2,773
Macedonia... 2,793
Serbia... 3,057
France... 3,126
Hungary... 3,426
Moldova... 3,890
Kazakhstan... 3,968
Bulgaria... 4,131
Belarus... 4,193
Romania... 4,480

Lithuania... 4,628
Latvia... 4,758
Azerbaijan... 4,835
Ukraine... 5,131
Armenia... 5,669
Georgia... 6,124
Poland... 7,279
Estonia... 8,375
Wales... 10,866
Russia... 11,586
Albania... NA
Turkey... NA

No entries for Andorra, Faroes, Malta, San Marino.

Hard to see how we could improve much on those figures.

[Kaiser1962]

In Eddie Turnbull's book I'm sure he says the main inducement for players moving South was the signing on fees offered - Matt Busby was determined to take Turnbull to Man U but for whatever reason it never worked out. It did for Bobby Johnstone who moved for 22,000 Grand. Also pretty sure there would be under the counter payments made.

From personal memory from the late 60's to the late 90's there was a big percentage of Scots in any given English club side.

Just saying there was movement and plenty of it, despite no wage cap here.

I think we are getting our wires crossed here. I am talking about the immediate post war period and all the players i mention happened prior to 1950 which covered the season in the OP.

The only Hibs cross border move in that period was George Farm who moved to Blackpool on a free in 1948, the year Tommy Younger joined Hibs. Bobby Johnstone moved to Man City in June 1954, two years before Younger himself moved to Liverpool.

[hibIBZ]

i agree with most of the comments on here. tickets prices are way to high, lack of competition, epl and cl on tv, poor quality on the park. i think it has to start at grass roots level when was the last time a world class player came out of the scottish top division? we are not producing any new jim baxters or lawrie reillys or whoever else we have this fanastic training facility that is not producing anything at the moment

[Gatecrasher]

Football in Scotland is way overpriced
tv companies shaft the fans that still go constantly
there are too many leagues and teams in Scotland
The sit down and shut up policing at games isn't doing any good
the lack of a competitive league
the donkeys that run our game
too many glory hunters following the old firm

As things stand no there won't be big crowds returning to Scottish football

[gegs70]

definately the quality of what you are seeing is not worth the price you pay. Unfortunately the better atmospheres are thos that where both home and away are filled?

Plus you see more kids wearing epl tops now....I think hibs need to do a lot more to bring kids back to er....after all they are the clubs future and we have empty seats...

[whiskyhibby]

Not without true competition where any team can win the SPL

[TheEastTerrace]

As Donkey Doncaster is never tired of pointing out, the SPL is actually a well supported league in terms of the number of people attending per head of the population. We would actually be building from a good foundation.

I wonder if you delved deeper into the demographics of these figures however, what would you find? In England, the big problem now facing the EPL clubs is an ageing population within football crowds due to the expensive cost of attending football. Far more middle-aged men than youngsters. Is this replicated in Scotland? Given the promotional drive by the SPL to get more families attending, I would hazard a guess that it's not too dissimilar a situation.

For me, the points have been well made in this thread. I think the clubs and football authorities have a fight to retain interest in the sport within Scotland.

[iwasthere1972]

Jim Spence asks? From his blog, it is interesting to look at the average attendances for 1948/49.
Aberdeen 24,200
Dundee 24,532
Celtic 37,171
Hearts 28,196
Hibernian 27,627
Rangers 44,600

It was a boom period post-war for the game and the clubs outside of the Glasgow pair never came close to repeating those enormous crowds. However, while the Glasgow two were still better supported, the gap was much narrower than now and often the two were split by other clubs in the race for the top prize.

Dundee were pipped by one point as Rangers took the title in 1949. The season before, Hibs took the title by two points from Rangers and Celtic finished 12th. In 1950, Rangers again nabbed the top spot, one point ahead of Hibs, who were followed by Hearts, East Fife then Celtic. The following year, Hibs were champions with Rangers and Dundee level on points behind them. It is a snapshot of a time when Scottish football was much more competitive than today. Is it simply wishful thinking that we can find a way to reinvigorate our game and bring a real competitive edge back to it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2012/03/as_the_debate_about_change.html

Probably, almost certainly, the teams outwith the Old Firm will never get as close in terms of average attendances. What a great pity!

Yes but only if they charge a fiver to get in and kick off at 3pm on a Saturday.

[HibsMax]

I think poor crowds can be attributed to many things but an unbalanced playing field is what I put the blame on. The governing bodies don't appear to be interested in a competitive league and a two horse race isn't entertainment for many. They need a way of maintaining balance IMO.

[jgl07]

Whatever our problems are in Scottish football it's not our lack of supporters.
Look at the table below.


Source: EFS (attendances), Wikipedia (populations).

Figures are "1 in X", i.e. "1 in 373 Scottish people attend top-tier football".


Iceland... 310
Cyprus... 357
Scotland... 373
Norway... 607
Denmark... 668
Montenegro... 685
Switzerland... 704
Netherlands... 849
Belgium... 922
Portugal... 1,038
Austria... 1,061
Luxembourg... 1,089

Sweden... 1,429
Greece... 1,484
England... 1,506
Spain... 1,607
Israel... 1,846
Germany... 1,924
Northern Ireland... 1,938
Bosnia-Herzegovina... 2,003
Czech Rep... 2,181
Croatia... 2,217
Slovakia... 2,256
Finland... 2,415

Italy... 2,421
Slovenia... 2,422
Eire... 2,773
Macedonia... 2,793
Serbia... 3,057
France... 3,126
Hungary... 3,426
Moldova... 3,890
Kazakhstan... 3,968
Bulgaria... 4,131
Belarus... 4,193
Romania... 4,480

Lithuania... 4,628
Latvia... 4,758
Azerbaijan... 4,835
Ukraine... 5,131
Armenia... 5,669
Georgia... 6,124
Poland... 7,279
Estonia... 8,375
Wales... 10,866
Russia... 11,586
Albania... NA
Turkey... NA

No entries for Andorra, Faroes, Malta, San Marino.

Hard to see how we could improve much on those figures.

These figures appear to refer to attendance at the League in question rather .

Wales is very low because it refers to the League of Wales while the best supported clubs Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport, etc play in the English League system. England is probably also lower because the teams below the top tier do attract very high attendances compared to their counterparts elsewhere in Europe.

Scotland's figure looks impressive until you see that half or more attend the matches of the gruesome twosome and many of those travel from Ireland or England anyway.

Compare the attendances of Hearts and Hibs with say Sheffield Wednesday (25,000 in Championship) and Sheffield United (18,000 in League One) and the figures do not look good. Comparing them with other two-team English Cities such as Manchester (United: 75,000, City: 46,000), Liverpool (Everton: 38,000, Liverpool 46,000), and Birmingham (Villa: 36,000, City: 15,000) makes things look even worse.

You have to go down to smaller Cities such as Bristol (City: 13,000 in Championship, Rovers: 6,000 League Two) or Nottingham (Forest: 20,000 Championship, County 6,000 League One) to compare with Edinburgh.

[woody47]

To get more fans back:
(i) Saturday league games at 3pm ONLY
(ii) No live TV for league games - highlights only
(iii) Cheaper package including seats, food and drink.

[ancient hibee]

And a wage cap of £12pw which meant there was no financial benefit to the player for moving club.

This is often quoted but in fact there never was a wage cap in Scotland.There was in England which is one of the reasons players stayed here.

[Baldy Foghorn]

To get more fans back:
(i) Saturday league games at 3pm ONLY
(ii) No live TV for league games - highlights only
(iii) Cheaper package including seats, food and drink.

Agree, the game is dying on it's feet, crowds are down, but TV dictates moving games to Friday nights or Sunday lunchtimes etc....

Purely about Hibs we had something like 16 different kick off times/days last season.....Pathetic and Clubs need to address pricing policy for live TV games.....Think Motherwell do that, but can't recollect others following suit.....

[Kaiser1962]

This is often quoted but in fact there never was a wage cap in Scotland.There was in England which is one of the reasons players stayed here.

This was established yesterday morning. Keep up. :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

The Poor facilities dont help .. even new grounds like St Mirren Park look pretty poor, or were at least built with a huge lack of imagination.

Have a look at Rotherham's new gaff .... The New York Stadium ... to see what can be done for 20 odd million ... very nice IMO.

[King Paddy]

Virtually every English team had a backbone of Scottish players. Visible wages may have been similar but there were other inducements on offer.

We also had in Harry Swan an inducement factor. He would top up individual players wages, call it bonus, Gordon Smith never felt the need to leave E.R. because Swan knew the large gates at that time were primerly because of the gay Gordon. Bobby Jonstone was sold only to fund the new floodlighting around 1954. Also when i talked to my late Dad the attendences from 1948 to 1959 were higher than 27,000. My first match at E.R. was in Jan 1959 Hibs were no longer the force they were but the crowd was 33,000 v Motherwell at home. Mind you that was possibly a spin off from winning 3-1 at Tynecastle on the 1st of Jan. Aye happy days boys nae tele great crowds and the Baker boy.:aok:

[Greendreamer]

The factor of clubs sharing home gates was a real sharing of wealth to the other clubs. However, Hibs were one of the clubs who fought for clubs to challenge this and keep their home gate receipt, just a gates started to fall off for those outwith the OF.

In relation to players there has been an about turn on the balance of power. The pre Bosman era saw players being treated poorly by clubs. If you recall the Airdrie debacle which saw a player being unable to sign for another club due to Airdrie keeping his papers and to all effects 'freezing' him out the game. This saw the player's fighting back and indeed, giving them the bargaining power. This scenario fed into the hands of Agent's who, let's face it have been the biggest leeches in the game. The money being poured into the English and other European leagues resulted in average players being overpaid. There is presently a generation of footballers who no longer aspire to win medals and trophies but to earn the 'celebrity' lifestyle.

As for the cost of attending the games itself, well we are all aware of the costs. The argument of a league with more competition. Does that stand up, La Liga, 2 clubs dominate that league. EPL - 4 clubs dominate in a league twice the size as SPL. Bundesliga dominated by 2/3 sides. Serie A - Milan sides, Juve and occasional challenge from others.

Bundesliga bets supported league because (it's claimed) is due to pricing structure. Yet, they have KO times at various times too.


Bottom line, I doubt that we will see a major increase in crowds - no longer the working class game.It's drifting towards a middle class, sit on your hands with atmosphere created by an MC whilst eating on the sponsors products.

Rant over

[Kato]

I think we are getting our wires crossed here. I am talking about the immediate post war period and all the players i mention happened prior to 1950 which covered the season in the OP.

The only Hibs cross border move in that period was George Farm who moved to Blackpool on a free in 1948, the year Tommy Younger joined Hibs. Bobby Johnstone moved to Man City in June 1954, two years before Younger himself moved to Liverpool.

Yup, I see where you are coming from.

For the foreseeable future there is no way we'll see crowds like that again.

Maybe after a huge recession, a collapse in other distractions and a World War (which is won) we might get that communal feeling for spectator sport back.

A big step forward considering the current recession but still a long way to go.:cb

[Liberal Hibby]

Compare the attendances of Hearts and Hibs with say Sheffield Wednesday (25,000 in Championship) and Sheffield United (18,000 in League One) and the figures do not look good. Comparing them with other two-team English Cities such as Manchester (United: 75,000, City: 46,000), Liverpool (Everton: 38,000, Liverpool 46,000), and Birmingham (Villa: 36,000, City: 15,000) makes things look even worse.

You have to go down to smaller Cities such as Bristol (City: 13,000 in Championship, Rovers: 6,000 League Two) or Nottingham (Forest: 20,000 Championship, County 6,000 League One) to compare with Edinburgh.

But the urban areas around most of these English cities are much bigger than Edinburgh's. This article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom) suggests Edinburgh is 14th - way behind the likes of Liverpool and Manchester, but even Nottingham and Bristol.

It's rather more like Brighton or Middlesbrough having two teams and given that - an combined attendance for Hibs and Hearts of 20-25k is pretty good.

[DH1875]

Looks like playing the bigotry angle is pretty lucrative.


Don't really get that whole argument. While it no doubt plays a part you only need to look at rangers 9 in a row run when celtic were P poor and playing in front of crowds under 12k. Same goes before Murry took over rangers and the new firm were running the show. Rangers crowds then were real poor. The real problem with Scottish football is the cost. Even if we were watching top draw players every week it still would be way to much never mind the crap we are watching these days. Saturday kick-offs with a good team playing good football and at a reasonable price, crowds would go up.

[Purple & Green]

I've been reading a bit about the whole 3pm Saturday kick offs, and apparently it was a relatively recent innovation to allow the likes of the pink to get all the scores out, kick offs weren't standard and indeed I think lugton mentions that Hibs time choice was 3:15 and others were 3:30. Also pre floodlights kick offs moved in the winter months forward to 2:00pm - the point being, that the 3pm standard kick offs is post the largest crowd era.

[Purple & Green]

But the urban areas around most of these English cities are much bigger than Edinburgh's. This article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom) suggests Edinburgh is 14th - way behind the likes of Liverpool and Manchester, but even Nottingham and Bristol.

It's rather more like Brighton or Middlesbrough having two teams and given that - an combined attendance for Hibs and Hearts of 20-25k is pretty good.

I think you're right - I can't check from my phone but I suspect Sunderland and Newcastle draw from an area with a population much larger than the lothians - but they are also drawing from Scotland thanks to sky, competitive pricing and being in the vicinity.

[fatbloke]

No - on the whole the product is p15h and overpriced and governed by telly with no consideration for fans:tin hat:

[jgl07]

To get more fans back:
(i) Saturday league games at 3pm ONLY
(ii) No live TV for league games - highlights only
(iii) Cheaper package including seats, food and drink.

Rewind to 1992-3 or there abouts and that was the situation. There were no live televised League matches. The tickets were rather cheaper than now and standing was permitted. All matches were at 3:00 on Saturday or 7:45 on Tuesday/Wednesday.

With that Hibs were lucky to pull in 4,000 against the likes of St Johnstone.

The SPL needs the publicity of TV coverage. There is plenty of other football on TV if the SPL declines.

[son of haggart]

Yes but other such as Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly etc never felt the need to move away along the M8 far less to England. Often it was the clubs who felt the need to move players on (Tommy Younger?) with the player having no say in the matter. Others like Dave Mackay actively sought a move. Just saying there was less of a disparity between England and Scotland with wages.

It isn't that long ago wages between Hibs and what are now middle ranking EPL clubs were more or less the same.



Far from it - the big man made it clear in his autobiography he was shocked and gutted when Hearts sold him. Als o at teh half time draw at Tynie a few years back:



"I didn't go........I was sent"

[jgl07]

Far from it - the big man made it clear in his autobiography he was shocked and gutted when Hearts sold him. Als o at teh half time draw at Tynie a few years back:

"I didn't go........I was sent"

Aye that would be right!

And couldn't wait to move back to Scotland when Spurs let him go.

[Sudds_1]

In 1948 there was little else to do but go to the fitba on a Saturday afternoon

Wasn't there at least one other thing to do? Population explosion in the 40's and 50's might hold a clue..........:rolleyes:

[beensaidbefore]

In 1948 there was little else to do but go to the fitba on a Saturday afternoon


this is the main reason IMO. People didnt go on holidays abroad, support Man U at the age of 5 or have to pay almost a days wages to go to a match which is of a poor standard, with no chance of winning anything. Sad times.

Although under the Mowbray era, we were getting substantially bigger crowds than we are now. maybe even 5000 extra a week, which would make a huge difference.

[theonlywayisup]

I have really enjoyed reading the responses. A lot of good points are well made.

IMO the strength of the Old Firm, and the lack of competition outwith it, is a key reason why attendances are low. If Hibs could guarantee that we would win say 80-90% of our games and winning those games by 3 or 4 goals each time (as the Old Firmm usually do) over a long period of time (i.e. 10-15 years), I am sure that our attendances would be considerably higher.

Case in point being the Mowbray era, when attendances jumped about 4,000 mainly because of the style of play and the feeling that we would win more games than we lost. I also was at Aberdeen Uni in the 80's, when attendances were often approaching or above 20,000, because they had a fantastic team and won most games.

[Purple & Green]

Aberdeen 24,200
Dundee 24,532
Celtic 37,171
Hearts 28,196
Hibernian 27,627
Rangers 44,600

Just a couple of things to add:

Tot that lot up and it comes to 186K roughly. The equivalent figures from 2007 were around 156K and last season 134K i.e. 83% & 72% of 1949 respectively. In that context it doesn't seem that bad, and I'm sure if you compared average attendance per top league game (16 teams against 12 of course) then they would come out roughly the same. It is true that the concentration of Rangers & Celtic fans has changed considerably.

However, I think that's quite a drop in the last five years, and whether it's down entirely to competitiveness of the league or not it seems to be clear that the SPL years haven't been good for fans.

Also, there's no accurate figures pre 1961 - they are only in most cases estimates from newspapers which could be unreliable. There's an excellent book on the subject 'Roar of the Crowd' by David Ross