Scouting Network

[Monts]

In recent seasons it has been a frustration that we dont seem to have a socuting network as such and just go with what we find.

It looks like this frustrated Pat too as he is looking to change it


"We're always looking to improve the squad no matter whether the window is closed or open.

"We've tried to set up our own new scouting network that we are in the process of doing at the moment."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19509260

:pfgwa

[Fife-Hibee]

Yeah scoutings been pretty bad since park left !!

[jimmy-adjovi]

Yeah scoutings been pretty bad since park left !!

Yeah, I see celtic are bringing through some quality now. James Forrest, Tony Watt, Twardzik. Makes you sick really

[Beefster]

We've had a Scouting Coordinator for ages to oversee a network that didn't exist?

[Gettin' Auld]

We've had a Scouting Coordinator for ages to oversee a network that didn't exist?
That was my first thought too.......

[jdships]

We've had a Scouting Coordinator for ages to oversee a network that didn't exist?

:agree:
I meet up on occasion with five or six men who 'Scout' for Hibs on a regular basis around the Lothians and Fife.
Problem seems to be attracting/persuading youngsters to come to EM/ER .
Why this is is pure speculation !! :greengrin

[Viva_Palmeiras]

The magnificent seven with only Spoony remaining can't have helped not the lack of a reserve team league to allow kids to get a taste without having to go on loan and stay together as a unit can't have helped.
I do wonder if they just were not up to it or we failed them in some way with the managerial merrigoround...

[J-C]

I've said for the past 3-4 years that our scouting has been shocking, specially when you see the teams round about us picking wee gems from various places.

[Famous5forever]

:agree:
I meet up on occasion with five or six men who 'Scout' for Hibs on a regular basis around the Lothians and Fife.
Problem seems to be attracting/persuading youngsters to come to EM/ER .
Why this is is pure speculation !! :greengrin

I Know several kids who have been invited into the under 15s group they all played a few trial games then left as coaching is sub standard Celtic seem to have it together and are way ahead of everyone now sinse there entire youth system was re structured several years ago.

[Brooster]

How many of these players did celtic develop through their academy and how many did they sign from other clubs?


Yeah, I see celtic are bringing through some quality now. James Forrest, Tony Watt, Twardzik. Makes you sick really

[JimBHibees]

How many of these players did celtic develop through their academy and how many did they sign from other clubs?

Only Forrest?

[Rasta_Hibs]

I'm surprised that hibs don't have a decent scouting network in place until now.

you would have thought by now after all these years that we would have nailed a scouting network or philosophy?

what have our board been doing? suppose can't moan to much if it's getting sorted now but it makes yi wonder.

[jdships]

I'm surprised that hibs don't have a decent scouting network in place until now.

you would have thought by now after all these years that we would have nailed a scouting network or philosophy?

what have our board been doing? suppose can't moan to much if it's getting sorted now but it makes yi wonder.



Hibs have had a scouting system in place for many a long year !!
Alec Miller for one had a ' team ' which covered virtually all parts of the country , watching and talking to boys from 11 onwards .
Get yourself to any public park or school pitches like Warriston and just watch and listen and you will see/hear the 'Scouts' at work.
How many players from other Scottish sides can you name who have made it to the TOP in the last ten years who weren't taken on by bigger clubs in England for developement.?
As other posters have said Celtic for an example sign up promising youngsters once they have shown quality by 16/17.
Very few if any have come through their Academy in the last two/three years
It is impossible for clubs to compete with English sides payments to youngsters to tie themselves up at age 14/16

[Rasta_Hibs]

is it the case that it has been scaled back in recent years that has lead fenlon to take some action?

[jdships]

is it the case that it has been scaled back in recent years that has lead fenlon to take some action?

That I think is 'right on the money ' :thumbsup:
I don't go around the parks on Saturdays as much as I used to do but have noticed a lot of the ' well kent' faces who worked for Hibs and Hearts have disappeared .
Alec Miller carried three/ four shoe boxes containing hundreds of record cards which held detailed information/details about young lads from age 10 .
These cards were colour coded and he added information to them as he was given it from coaches/scouts. Those who didn't make it had their cards shredded .
The boxes never left the boot of his car except when it went in for service and then they were taken into his house .
He lived football !!

[SMAXXA]

I played senior and played Junior up until this season where work has become to much of a priority and I have seen a lot of players who have exceptional tallent, some of them still pretty young however they dont seem to get picked up by our senior clubs. I know of a few guys the last couple of years that have went to Berwick, Annan, East Stirling, Raith and one to Hamilton but no SPL clubs seem to pay much attention. I have no doubt giving some of these player full time traing would develop them into players who could easily compete with some of the dross in the SPL, there just seems to be this cut of, if a young player isnt snapped up at 10 or 11 and gets a contract at a senior club then they are discarded and thats them done.

Some of the top junior teams are better than most 3rd and 2nd Division teams IMO.

[IberianHibernian]

A few weeks ago I was surprised to read a former Watford player ( can`t remember his name or why I ended up reading a list of ex Watford players ) described as Hibernian`s London area scout . Not sure what players if any have come to Easter Road through him . Point about competing with English clubs is obviously true if they`ve been taking players from likes of Barca`s youth teams . I know a Spanish boy who went to a summer football camp in Spain organised by a top English team at age 7 and was invited back for a similar camp by another top English team a year later so it starts well before the teens despite FIFA laws . Hibs are obviously not in financial situation we were in when John Park was at ER when I know we made very serious enquiries about Spanish players of a very high standard ( a division above division of likes of Suso , Sandaza or Novo ) but I`m not convinced that club couldn`t do a lot more to attract promising young players from abroad ( does anyone at club look into ways of encouraging youngsters to combine football with studies in Edinburgh ? has club used contacts with ex - players like Ulises de la Cruz to recruit youngsters from abroad ?- as students there would be fewer residency issues , does anyone outside Scotland know about excellent training facilities at EM - do we promote them and offer use of them to clubs and FAs from abroad ? , would our scouting network have picked out Irish players like Doyle if we didn`t have an Irish manager ? , do we make any effort to work with big clubs in other countries in player recruitment ? ( young players playing on loan with us for example ) ,...) . Not saying we shouldn`t look for good young Scottish players but standard is so low that we could have best of young Scottish players and still struggle to make any impact in SPL and better . Not just about teenagers either - as an example , while we played pre season friendlies players from Denmark , Spain , etc who had finished contracts with clubs played a tournament in Holland not far from where we were playing - was anyone from Hibs there ?

[SMAXXA]

A few weeks ago I was surprised to read a former Watford player ( can`t remember his name or why I ended up reading a list of ex Watford players ) described as Hibernian`s London area scout . Not sure what players if any have come to Easter Road through him . Point about competing with English clubs is obviously true if they`ve been taking players from likes of Barca`s youth teams . I know a Spanish boy who went to a summer football camp in Spain organised by a top English team at age 7 and was invited back for a similar camp by another top English team a year later so it starts well before the teens despite FIFA laws . Hibs are obviously not in financial situation we were in when John Park was at ER when I know we made very serious enquiries about Spanish players of a very high standard ( a division above division of likes of Suso , Sandaza or Novo ) but I`m not convinced that club couldn`t do a lot more to attract promising young players from abroad ( does anyone at club look into ways of encouraging youngsters to combine football with studies in Edinburgh ? has club used contacts with ex - players like Ulises de la Cruz to recruit youngsters from abroad ?- as students there would be fewer residency issues , does anyone outside Scotland know about excellent training facilities at EM - do we promote them and offer use of them to clubs and FAs from abroad ? , would our scouting network have picked out Irish players like Doyle if we didn`t have an Irish manager ? , do we make any effort to work with big clubs in other countries in player recruitment ? ( young players playing on loan with us for example ) ,...) . Not saying we shouldn`t look for good young Scottish players but standard is so low that we could have best of young Scottish players and still struggle to make any impact in SPL and better . Not just about teenagers either - as an example , while we played pre season friendlies players from Denmark , Spain , etc who had finished contracts with clubs played a tournament in Holland not far from where we were playing - was anyone from Hibs there ?

I think you make alot of very good points :agree:

[jdships]

I played senior and played Junior up until this season where work has become to much of a priority and I have seen a lot of players who have exceptional tallent, some of them still pretty young however they dont seem to get picked up by our senior clubs. I know of a few guys the last couple of years that have went to Berwick, Annan, East Stirling, Raith and one to Hamilton but no SPL clubs seem to pay much attention. I have no doubt giving some of these player full time traing would develop them into players who could easily compete with some of the dross in the SPL, there just seems to be this cut of, if a young player isnt snapped up at 10 or 11 and gets a contract at a senior club then they are discarded and thats them done.

Some of the top junior teams are better than most 3rd and 2nd Division teams IMO.


You make some good points there !!
When I played senior very few clubs were interested in you until you were playing ' Secondary Juvenile' ( under 17) at least
Some exceptional schoolboys were ' signed up' by top clubs but very few !!
From memory I remember a boy who was at St Anthony's when they won the Scottish Schools cup in the late 1940's signed for Arsenal and was released within two years
If you didn't make it at senior level you could only be 're-instated' to the level you last played as an amateur.
Whoever you signed for farmed you out to a Junior club and after you had played ( again from memory) four Junior games you could be reinstated to the level.
The great problem now is that clubs are not prepared to 'risk' signing/ splash the cash on a lad to try and develop him purely and simply on the grounds of COST !!

[Rasta_Hibs]

is it the case that it has been scaled back in recent years that has lead fenlon to take some action?

[SMAXXA]

You make some good points there !!
When I played senior very few clubs were interested in you until you were playing ' Secondary Juvenile' ( under 17) at least
Some exceptional schoolboys were ' signed up' by top clubs but very few !!
From memory I remember a boy who was at St Anthony's when they won the Scottish Schools cup in the late 1940's signed for Arsenal and was released within two years
If you didn't make it at senior level you could only be 're-instated' to the level you last played as an amateur.
Whoever you signed for farmed you out to a Junior club and after you had played ( again from memory) four Junior games you could be reinstated to the level.
The great problem now is that clubs are not prepared to 'risk' signing/ splash the cash on a lad to try and develop him purely and simply on the grounds of COST !!

I played in a Mussey Windsor Team which was and I think still is the most successful team of all time, we won the Scottish, League, all the league cups, undefeated throughout the season then got beat 4-3 by Granton on the last day of the season. That was at u16's, we went to 18's and had another very good team byt we didnt win the scottish that year. From these 2 years we had one guy go to Stenny and another to I think Alloa, I went to Berwick and another went to East fife, mind he then went from them to Tottenham so done alright, mind he didnt really make it big, went on loan to Motherwell and a few others.

I guess the point I am making is that with 2 teams with so much tallent how didnt more guys make it, and not just our team teams in our league had some great players aswell, but again no decent senior team interest.

Most latterly at Junior there is one guy in perticular thats outstanding and playing in the bottom tear of Junior, he has had offers from Berwick, and alot of Super League teams and he has knocked them back, dont get me wrong he needs to have a look at his ambition and take himself out the comfort zone but I would pay the 2 grand it would cost to buy him for Hibs and see what full time can do for him, he is that good IMO.

Again thats just my peronak experience im sure there are tuns of players could say similar things.

[Future17]

How many of these players did celtic develop through their academy and how many did they sign from other clubs?

Either option still requires initial scouting.

[eastmainsmsh]

I played in a Mussey Windsor Team which was and I think still is the most successful team of all time, we won the Scottish, League, all the league cups, undefeated throughout the season then got beat 4-3 by Granton on the last day of the season. That was at u16's, we went to 18's and had another very good team byt we didnt win the scottish that year. From these 2 years we had one guy go to Stenny and another to I think Alloa, I went to Berwick and another went to East fife, mind he then went from them to Tottenham so done alright, mind he didnt really make it big, went on loan to Motherwell and a few others.

I guess the point I am making is that with 2 teams with so much tallent how didnt more guys make it, and not just our team teams in our league had some great players aswell, but again no decent senior team interest.

Most latterly at Junior there is one guy in perticular thats outstanding and playing in the bottom tear of Junior, he has had offers from Berwick, and alot of Super League teams and he has knocked them back, dont get me wrong he needs to have a look at his ambition and take himself out the comfort zone but I would pay the 2 grand it would cost to buy him for Hibs and see what full time can do for him, he is that good IMO.

Again thats just my peronak experience im sure there are tuns of players could say similar things.

Jordan Cropley ?

[Just_Jimmy]

I played in a Mussey Windsor Team which was and I think still is the most successful team of all time, we won the Scottish, League, all the league cups, undefeated throughout the season then got beat 4-3 by Granton on the last day of the season. That was at u16's, we went to 18's and had another very good team byt we didnt win the scottish that year. From these 2 years we had one guy go to Stenny and another to I think Alloa, I went to Berwick and another went to East fife, mind he then went from them to Tottenham so done alright, mind he didnt really make it big, went on loan to Motherwell and a few others.

I guess the point I am making is that with 2 teams with so much tallent how didnt more guys make it, and not just our team teams in our league had some great players aswell, but again no decent senior team interest.

Most latterly at Junior there is one guy in perticular thats outstanding and playing in the bottom tear of Junior, he has had offers from Berwick, and alot of Super League teams and he has knocked them back, dont get me wrong he needs to have a look at his ambition and take himself out the comfort zone but I would pay the 2 grand it would cost to buy him for Hibs and see what full time can do for him, he is that good IMO.

Again thats just my peronak experience im sure there are tuns of players could say similar things.

The lad thompson or something like that. I remember East Fife selling the boy to spurs i think.

[SMAXXA]

The lad thompson or something like that. I remember East Fife selling the boy to spurs i think.

Na his name was Steven Ferguson mate, quite surreal really, playing on public parks then within a few weeks he was on the bench at highbury.

[SMAXXA]

Jordan Cropley ?

Na mate

[jdships]

I played in a Mussey Windsor Team which was and I think still is the most successful team of all time, we won the Scottish, League, all the league cups, undefeated throughout the season then got beat 4-3 by Granton on the last day of the season. That was at u16's, we went to 18's and had another very good team byt we didnt win the scottish that year. From these 2 years we had one guy go to Stenny and another to I think Alloa, I went to Berwick and another went to East fife, mind he then went from them to Tottenham so done alright, mind he didnt really make it big, went on loan to Motherwell and a few others.

I guess the point I am making is that with 2 teams with so much tallent how didnt more guys make it, and not just our team teams in our league had some great players aswell, but again no decent senior team interest.

Most latterly at Junior there is one guy in perticular thats outstanding and playing in the bottom tear of Junior, he has had offers from Berwick, and alot of Super League teams and he has knocked them back, dont get me wrong he needs to have a look at his ambition and take himself out the comfort zone but I would pay the 2 grand it would cost to buy him for Hibs and see what full time can do for him, he is that good IMO.

Again thats just my peronak experience im sure there are tuns of players could say similar things.



Good post and says a lot !
That's a question which is difficult to answer !
As I said earlier I knew Alec Miller very well and , sadly for me personally , he had his ' scouts' mainly looking at lads of 10/11 .
The idea being that he and his coaches could school them in the ideas he had while in their formative years .
I worked for a while for what is now a First Div side in England passing on names etc of 14/17 year olds who might be potential pro's .
Not many took up the offer , and there were a few , most ending up Junior.
Like you I knew a lad who played Junior in preference to going to a senior club. His problem was his family weren't happy about the uncertainty of the future , what was he going to do when he finished playing ? And finally when he got married at 22 his wife put her foot down . Sad because he seemed to have what it takes to succeed .
It has to be accepted that for every fifty 17/19 lads playing senior probably only about ten will still be there come 21.
I was one of them .In 1949 'Promising 17 year old' who turned into a 'Free Transfer' before I was 21 with the manager's comment ' ......really sorry lad but you just haven't improved enough to keep you on '

' As they say it's a case of ' what might have been' :greengrin

:flag:

[McD]

Jordan Cropley ?

He had talent when at Hibs as a laddie, but was also a lazy prima donna, watched him quite a few times for the 19s, and looked like he wanted to have a free role where he could saunter about without any responsibility. That said, he had the ability to shift his weight quickly to get by a player, could hit a shot from distance, was a bit like riordan in style, and also in that you'd struggle to find a position for him, as he wasn't quick enough (or hard working enough) to play wide, but wasn't strong enough or willing to do the mundane aspects of playing through the middle. Sad indictment of his attitude that he has sunk and sunk since those days of a successful 19s side.

Of that team, several looked like they could go on and become good pro's if not better, and none of them have really done anything, Wotherspoon and hanlon being the 2 left at the club, and both have their critics. The doing away with the reserve league has cost Hibs dear as most of these laddies were needing exposure to senior level football, and the last 3 years woes have ensured successive managers didnt have the luxury or inclination to blood young ones, the reserves would have been a great test of their mettle, what lack of vision from the SPL, although i believe Hibs were one of those who voted against its removal. Sean Welsh should have become an international IMHO, wonderful control and passing ability, had a great appetite for a tackle, had that wee big swagger needed to take control of a game, but some awful luck with injuries and not being fancied by the last couple of managers seems to have done for him, so far a least. I still hold out hope he'll turn things around.

On the wider scouting issue, since Mowbray we seem to have lost the ability to unearth decent affordable players. Mowbray signed some huddies, but the likes of Murphy, boozy, etc came and enhanced the team, since then we seem to have just asked managers who they fancy, and agents sending us DVDs. We should have a network of scouts up and down Britain watching all levels and age groups, I know is needs to be balanced with cost, but doing it right will save us money in paying of duds who we want shot of. The biggest issue has been chaing managers so frequently in the last few years, as they'll all have different ideas of how they want the scouting to work, calderwood in particular seemed to want to only sign players who he had personally managed or managed against in his previous roles. They've been mentioned a lot in this context, but Dundee united have built and sustained their first team buy identifying, signing and usually improving youngish players from lower leagues, and selling on when necessary. Yes they're skint, but that's not really down to paying big fees or wages in the last few years.

Its going to take a long time, and most likely a long time with a consistent management team, but we should and need to do better on the scouting front.

[McD]

Good post and says a lot !
That's a question which is difficult to answer !
As I said earlier I knew Alec Miller very well and , sadly for me personally , he had his ' scouts' mainly looking at lads of 10/11 .
The idea being that he and his coaches could school them in the ideas he had while in their formative years .
I worked for a while for what is now a First Div side in England passing on names etc of 14/17 year olds who might be potential pro's .
Not many took up the offer , and there were a few , most ending up Junior.
Like you I knew a lad who played Junior in preference to going to a senior club. His problem was his family weren't happy about the uncertainty of the future , what was he going to do when he finished playing ? And finally when he got married at 22 his wife put her foot down . Sad because he seemed to have what it takes to succeed .
It has to be accepted that for every fifty 17/19 lads playing senior probably only about ten will still be there come 21.
I was one of them .In 1949 'Promising 17 year old' who turned into a 'Free Transfer' before I was 21 with the manager's comment ' ......really sorry lad but you just haven't improved enough to keep you on '

' As they say it's a case of ' what might have been' :greengrin

:flag:

Do you still have some young relatives with Hibs JD? If so, what's their thoughts on what's been happening with Hibs over the last few months, I've noticed the 'fenlon's training is boring etc' rumours have died down, possibly due to malcontents moving on?

[JohnStephens91]

I think my friends dad is a scout at Hibs, he was unemployed a few months ago so I'm guessing it is a fairly recent thing? I tried pressing for information but it was not forthcoming, he might be part of the lower league scouting system Fenlon has created?

[jdships]

Do you still have some young relatives with Hibs JD? If so, what's their thoughts on what's been happening with Hibs over the last few months, I've noticed the 'fenlon's training is boring etc' rumours have died down, possibly due to malcontents moving on?

Yes still have a couple of nephews ' five times removed ' at EM :greengrin
To be fair to them they have never said a bad word about PF and certainly have never complained about his training methods What they do say is they find him very approachable and he is a good listner
Like good pro's they don't dish the dirt , at least not to me !:greengrin
Couple of things they have spoken about were Rangers and the arguments re their debts etc and most of all how the older lads are pleased to see ' Reserve League ' football back from 10th September.
As we all were in our twenties they want to play regular competitive football , boredom can play a big part in causing problems among full time athletes as you know .:rolleyes:
I remember my pal winning the Scottish 2nd XI Cup with Falkirk in 1949 /50 - still one of his prized possessions and is in a picture frame hanging on his living room wall . !!! ( Ended up it was the only thing he ever won :greengrin )
In general there appears to be a much better atmosphere about the place now a new season has got under way - The Cup final defeat was a big downer - as you could imagine .

[offshorehibby]

most of all how the older lads are pleased to see ' Reserve League ' football back from 10th September.
As we all were in our twenties they want to play regular competitive football , boredom can play a big part in causing problems among full time athletes as you know .:rolleyes:

I can't recall reading or seeing anything regarding the reserve league starting back up. I'm usually up to date with all the Hibs news, are sure about this.

[jdships]

I can't recall reading or seeing anything regarding the reserve league starting back up. I'm usually up to date with all the Hibs news, are sure about this.


I was given this info by my lads at EM

The Scottish Football League will operate both a Reserve League and Reserve League Cup this season. The Reserve League will kick-off on week commencing Moday, 10th September, 2012 the fixtures will be announced shortly.

See
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/football/reserve/reserve-football/

OK ?

[offshorehibby]

I was given this info by my lads at EM

The Scottish Football League will operate both a Reserve League and Reserve League Cup this season. The Reserve League will kick-off on week commencing Moday, 10th September, 2012 the fixtures will be announced shortly.

See
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/football/reserve/reserve-football/

OK ?

I'm not being picky but if it's SFL then we'll not be in it. I'd love the reserve league to start back up. This shows the 14 teams taking part in reserve league.
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/football/reserve/

[jdships]

I'm not being picky but if it's SFL then we'll not be in it. I'd love the reserve league to start back up. This shows the 14 teams taking part in reserve league.
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/football/reserve/


Ah well shows you how info ' straight from the horses mouth' can be wrong
Was just passing on what I was told by the lads at East Mains :greengrin

[Just_Jimmy]

Na his name was Steven Ferguson mate, quite surreal really, playing on public parks then within a few weeks he was on the bench at highbury.

Aye! That the lad i was thinking about. I knew it was something along these lines.