Progress?

[Hibs90]

So is any progress we have made this season just been thrown out the window after that? Missing players remember. Tuesday night, long journey etc. I'm not to bothered about that result and you can tell the club aren't either. As long as we keep it up in the league that's what really matters.

[LancashireHibby]

I think tonight, if anything, has shown that we haven't really made any true progress and are only a few injuries away from returning to the dirge of last season.

[edinburghhibee]

So is any progress we have made this season just been thrown out the window after that? Missing players remember. Tuesday night, long journey etc. I'm not to bothered about that result and you can tell the club aren't either. As long as we keep it up in the league that's what really matters.

This thread a wind up? Have I taken the bait?

The club, manager, players and supporters should be bothered we only really have two chances (Slim Chances) of silverwear every season, that's one down and we aren't even out of August! Our club aren't Man Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea we need good cup runs in order to get much needed funds to spend on players during the transfer windows.

I'll be honest the folk who think this result should be swept under the carpet need there head examined. We have been played off the park by a second division team, they brought on a player Willie Gibson in the second half who I've played against a few years back and he's shocking.

Hibs players and staff should be ashamed of themselves after that.

[matty_f]

So is any progress we have made this season just been thrown out the window after that? Missing players remember. Tuesday night, long journey etc. I'm not to bothered about that result and you can tell the club aren't either. As long as we keep it up in the league that's what really matters.
They should be bothered about it, it was a cup game and they are representing Hibernian. We got pumped in our last cup game and this was a chance to start us off on the road back to redemption but instead we went in half-ersed and we're out the cup and embarrassed.

They should be bothered about every game we play.

[Hibs90]

Of course, but say come the end of the season and were in the top 6..would anyone be that bothered about this result? Would anyone look back and still rage?

[matty_f]

Of course, but say come the end of the season and were in the top 6..would anyone be that bothered about this result? Would anyone look back and still rage?

They should do, it's an opportunity lost again. When the cup final is on, or the draws for the next rounds are made, we'll be thinking back to now and cursing this result. We don't win many cups,and we don't get to too many finals. When we're drawn against a 2nd division side we should be expecting to go through.

[edinburghhibee]

Take one game at a time, you can't say we will get top six at this stage of the season. I could put it to you that should we finish 2nd or 3rd should we have tried harder in the LC and gave ourselves a decent chance of winning something?

PF keeps telling us that we need to stop being a soft touch well tonight Mr Fenlon our team were a soft touch all over the park, bullied and harrassed by a second division team who deserved there win.

[LancashireHibby]

Spot on Matty. Realistically we shouldn't be anywhere near the relegation spots this year and I fear we will drop away from the chase for Europe, so I'm sure we'll all be wondering 'what if?' come March.

[Hibs90]

I think well finish top 6, pending injuries that would just **** us over. All im saying is yes we should have win, the cup is important but in the grand scheme of things tonight's result wasn't the end of the world, we are still a far better team than last year. The main objective this year is to make progress in the league, which so far we have done.

[edinburghhibee]

I think well finish top 6, pending injuries that would just **** us over. All im saying is yes we should have win, the cup is important but in the grand scheme of things tonight's result wasn't the end of the world, we are still a far better team than last year. The main objective this year is to make progress in the league, which so far we have done.

I fully agree that the league is the main focus this season but, we as a club need a decent cup run to get the funds into the bank so that we can progress. We still have a massive number of players who are dead wood and need rid sharpish to progress Kujabi, O'Hanlon, Booth, Stephens, Galbraith, Sproule and prob others too.

Like you say if things go tits up and our first 11 get suspesions or injuries these are the players we need to rely on to get us through games and they can't even put in a performance against QOS!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I think well finish top 6, pending injuries that would just **** us over. All im saying is yes we should have win, the cup is important but in the grand scheme of things tonight's result wasn't the end of the world, we are still a far better team than last year. The main objective this year is to make progress in the league, which so far we have done.

Maybe if bonuses were related to income from cups it would hit home how important it is we don't go out at first time of asking. In the grand scheme of things with money too tight to mention I think it could well be a relative setback unfortunately.

[Beefster]

So is any progress we have made this season just been thrown out the window after that? Missing players remember. Tuesday night, long journey etc. I'm not to bothered about that result and you can tell the club aren't either. As long as we keep it up in the league that's what really matters.

I think that's rubbish. The club aren't in a position to throw away the income derived from a cup run or one of the two chances of silverware.

Last night wasn't about Hibs not really caring. It was about Fenlon underestimating a second division team and making changes to a winning team. As I said on a PM board, Fenlon seems to be fine as long as he's not having to put too much thought into the team (I.e. 442 and all the obvious players playing in their best positions). As soon as he tries to mess about with tactics or positions, it goes pear-shaped.

[oregonhibby]

Having tactics would be a good start. We were out classed.

[hibsbollah]

Its only the wee cup :dunno:

[lord bunberry]

I've been supportive of fenlon since he came in and i still am but last night was a spectacular own goal. We've been dire for so long now and we needed to keep up the little bit of momentum we had going.irrespective of who we were playing he should have put our strongest team out then maybe made changes if we were winning. We have missed out on some much needed revenue and if we go on a bad run from here he will get pelters for it. We need to dust ourselves down now and try and get a result on saturday as last night has just made the trip to parkhead much more important

[Steve20]

Of course, but say come the end of the season and were in the top 6..would anyone be that bothered about this result? Would anyone look back and still rage?

I'd rather we finished 8th or 9th and had a chance to win the League cup, than scrape into 6th place and not win it.

[Springbank]

Feel good factor has gone for me. You travel all that way and see that team sheet and you think "but I want to support my team, not an elephants graveyard xi".

Long way back home thinking dark thoughts about why this club with this board and this manager deserve any of my time and support. Terrible

[Hainan Hibs]

These head in the sand posts are just as bad as the "doom and gloom" posts. The club will need good cup runs to boost the coffers for January and beyond. I don't think they will take too kindly to the club being pumped out of one of the cups by the end of August.

It's not the end of the world but to brush it under the carpet is wrong. It is potentially a substantial amount of lost revenue that may effect the budget of Fenlon, it is a lost chance of a Semi-Final or another trip to Hampden, and 500 Hibs fans have travelled a long way to see the team pumped out by a 2nd Division team.

It's quite a big boot to the spuds.

[Jim44]

It's a shocking result. We've recently taken three steps forward but last night we took two steps backward. The annoying thing is that we will have to wait a while to see if more progress can be made as Celtic will eat us alive on Saturday.

[Lmc2105]

Last night proved 2 things that kujabi should never put ona jersey again and punted along with o'hanlon!

The hoofball tactic was brutal and cost us we never really got cairney and deegan on the ball ..

Griffiths had no support cause kuqi doesn't look fit either! If we get injuries I wouldn't be so confident with last night performance of them coming in and making a difference! Was a long journey last night
sumed it up for me when 3 players come over and say thenaks for the support!

[500miles]

The thing is, we didn't bring in untried youngsters against QOTS, these were players who are professionals, and should be beating QOTS every week. I don't know if some players just turned up with the wrong attitude, or if we just couldn't get the ball down and it was a bad night at the office, or a combination of both. Griffith's always gives 100%, but for him to miss such glaring chances are unlike him. It was probably a bit of both. Last night is only really a backwards step if we don't learn from it. It may have been the last chance for a couple of players to show they still had a place at Hibs, because PF is after players in thier position, and if that's the case, then fair dos. This season is all about finishing higher than last season, I can wait a year for us to challange for trophies.

[ian cruise]

I think that's rubbish. The club aren't in a position to throw away the income derived from a cup run or one of the two chances of silverware.

Last night wasn't about Hibs not really caring. It was about Fenlon underestimating a second division team and making changes to a winning team. As I said on a PM board, Fenlon seems to be fine as long as he's not having to put too much thought into the team (I.e. 442 and all the obvious players playing in their best positions). As soon as he tries to mess about with tactics or positions, it goes pear-shaped.

i dont know if i would say its fenlon not putting too much thought into the team. I would class it as using a competitive game to make sure squad players are up to the job (they aren't). There have been people crying out for booth to get played and some saying give kujabi a run on left wing so it wasnt like its a crazy idea Fenlon just came up with. Mcpake and hanlon are unlikely to play all games this season so givingo'hanlon a run out isn't total madness either given the fact Stephens has proven he cant be relied upon.

Yes the cup is important but a good league position is more important and though we are second we haven't looked great so its important these we find out sooner rather than later if these guys can step in when needed, and its obvious they can't. At least we know now while theres time to do something about it rather than after friday and tggddn midway through the season injures kick in and we start to plummet down the league and get kicked out the Scottish cup first round. That team should have been good enough to beat QotS, we know it and i'd bet Fenlon knows it, but they didnt.

We arent the first team to get knocked out by a smaller club and we wont be the last. It did tell us our first eleven can be competitive but thats it. As long as a) we never see that line up starting a game again and b) a few more players come in then i will take it as lesson learned.

p.s. apologies now for any spelling or grammar issues, it's early and i'm typing this on my phone.

[Pretty Boy]

Finishing 8th and winning a cup at Hampden.

Finishing 5th and out both cups early doors.

I know which I'd prefer. I'm not massively upset about resting a few players in a midweek cup game. What I am upset about is the fact our squad has been shown up for how light it is. If McPake and/or Maybury get injured that's what we are left with. We need bodies in, good cup runs pay for these bodies.

[Purehibee_MYB]

Thing is, I am just as annoyed as the next fan that we lost last night, but if we get any sort of result on saturday against, the QoS result will virtually be forgotten until the next round when we aren't there, and everyone will be back to praising the team again. I understand that last nights result has shown severe weaknesses in our squad as a whole but I can't help looking at the table and seeing us in 2nd and being optimistic for the season, it is early days but who knows??

[Dinkydoo]

Last night was a shocking result and a real disappointment although when I looked at the starting 11 I knew we were going to be beaten. O'Hanlon and Kujabi are simply not good enough and Hanlon seems to need to be coached whilst he's on-field - probably due to the rubbish he's played alongside for years now.

The progress we have made so far this season hasn't been 'thrown out of the window' however last night does highlight that if we have to rely on the same players that weren't good enough to get a game towards the end of last season, as backup to an average to Ok starting 11, then we will be in another relegation battle this time round too. Deegan and Cairny also picked thier night to have an off game.

If we are to make any substantial progress on last year then we need 3 more players; but I'm not confident of getting them.







At least the majority of you on here didn't have to face the "being beaten by yer hame team" comments this morning.

[gegs70]

The players that have come in have not had much first team football not an excuse however it also shows us that any injuries and we dont have the quality to replace players?

[LeighLoyal]

The players that have come in have not had much first team football not an excuse however it also shows us that any injuries and we dont have the quality to replace players?


The worst aspect for me is that Kuqi to all intents looks a dud. I was hoping we'd added a guy that could do a Brewster or latter day Mixu, but it looks like we've added a slug like behemoth. Sheridan freed by CSKA yesterday could have been done, stupid by Fenlon and Petrie for sanctioning this deal. Not good.

[gegs70]

The worst aspect for me is that Kuqi to all intents looks a dud. I was hoping we'd added a guy that could do a Brewster or latter day Mixu, but it looks like we've added a slug like behemoth. Sheridan freed by CSKA yesterday could have been done, stupid by Fenlon and Petrie for sanctioning this deal. Not good.

Im sure if he gets a few games he can get better. Just ashame we identify players and bring th the em in after the season has started!

[blackpoolhibs]

The players that have come in have not had much first team football not an excuse however it also shows us that any injuries and we dont have the quality to replace players?

Thats correct, who was injured last night?

[fatbloke]

So is any progress we have made this season just been thrown out the window after that? Missing players remember. Tuesday night, long journey etc. I'm not to bothered about that result and you can tell the club aren't either. As long as we keep it up in the league that's what really matters.

That is why we have won next to nothing in the 51 years i have followed Hibs and will probably just as little in the next 51. All the keech the board spout about challenging at the top, blah , blah and so on, is crap pure unadulterated crap. We are in severe danger of alienating our support in it's entirety but hey never mind we will still be here, probably as a third division club. If last night does not bother you you should be ashamed.

[DH1875]

I think tonight, if anything, has shown that we haven't really made any true progress and are only a few injuries away from returning to the dirge of last season.


Spot on :top marks.

The Yams game aside I've seen NOTHING this season to convince me different and they owed us that one. We could easily have been 3 down to St Johnstone at the weekend and were very lucky to win it.


Of course, but say come the end of the season and were in the top 6..would anyone be that bothered about this result? Would anyone look back and still rage?

So you'd rather finish 6th in the league than win a cup and finish 7th/8th :confused:. That's one of the problems if you ask me. Who cares if we finish 6th, what's the point, might as well be tenth.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Spot on :top marks.

The Yams game aside I've seen NOTHING this season to convince me different and they owed us that one. We could easily have been 3 down to St Johnstone at the weekend and were very lucky to win it.



So you'd rather finish 6th in the league than win a cup and finish 7th/8th :confused:. That's one of the problems if you ask me. Who cares if we finish 6th, what's the point, might as well be tenth.

Really???? What about league placing money.........

[JimBHibees]

Spot on :top marks.

The Yams game aside I've seen NOTHING this season to convince me different and they owed us that one. We could easily have been 3 down to St Johnstone at the weekend and were very lucky to win it.


So you'd rather finish 6th in the league than win a cup and finish 7th/8th :confused:. That's one of the problems if you ask me. Who cares if we finish 6th, what's the point, might as well be tenth.

Thats nonsense really. Comfortable winners in the end after Saints were on top in first half but created very little. Cant remember Williams making a save first half.

[DH1875]

Really???? What about league placing money.........


What about it? Fans doing cartwheels because we finish 6th in the league just doesn't wash with me. It's like Arsenal fans who think winning naff all for years and finishing 4th every year is success :confused:. Would always take an 8th place finish and a cup final over 6th place in the league.

[DH1875]

Thats nonsense really. Comfortable winners in the end after Saints were on top in first half but created very little. Cant remember Williams making a save first half.


Really? It all about opinions and that but do you honestly believe we weren't lucky to be going in 1-0 up at HT at the weekend.

[JimBHibees]

Really? It all about opinions and that but do you honestly believe we weren't lucky to be going in 1-0 up at HT at the weekend.

We were we then scored again and probably could have scored more but were in the end comfortable winners.

[HibsMax]

At the end of the day, progress can only be measured on an apples to apples basis. Final analysis, of course, has to wait until the end of the season but since we're not there yet we only have two options : (1) wait, (2) do a season-on-season analysis so far.

Scottish League Cup 2011/2012 - Quarter Finals
Scottish League Cup 2012/2013 - 2nd Round
Result : No progress

League 2011/2012 after 4 matches -3 points (Celtic, ICT, Kilmarnock, St. Mirren)
League 2012/2013 after 4 matches -7 points (Dundee Utd, Hearts, St. Mirren, St. Johnstone)
Result : Progress

So in some ways we're better than last season and in other ways we're worse off. Our final league position will only be known after another 34 games have been played but looking at the season so far, we've made progress. We could track this season versus last season so we can constantly monitor our progress based on last year, that might be something I do just for shiggles.

[IFONLY]

So is any progress we have made this season just been thrown out the window after that? Missing players remember. Tuesday night, long journey etc. I'm not to bothered about that result and you can tell the club aren't either. As long as we keep it up in the league that's what really matters.

As long as your not bothered thats fine!!!!!!!

[Hainan Hibs]

:faf:

Can't believe the emphasis put on being 2nd after 4 games:rotflmao:. We were flying high with Chic Charnley and co at the start of the 98 season and then nosedived and landed in Division 1.

[S.sct]

Of course, but say come the end of the season and were in the top 6..would anyone be that bothered about this result? Would anyone look back and still rage?

I can see what you mean (work in progress) but results like that are not good for the club. Confidence in both the team and the support is vital and this result wont help. The fans are long suffering and should not be expecting too much to progress past a second division side. So maybe not but who knows.

[HibsMax]

:faf:

Can't believe the emphasis put on being 2nd after 4 games:rotflmao:. We were flying high with Chic Charnley and co at the start of the 98 season and then nosedived and landed in Division 1.

Did you see what happened after the Dundee United game? That was after a SINGLE match. If you don't think this place would be in meltdown if Hibs were sitting 12th right now then you're kidding yourself. Every single point counts, not just the ones you earn at the end of the season. The fact that we're sitting 2nd right now is great and much better than most were predicting (don't worry, I'll try to back that up with "facts" shortly).

Good job using facts from 14 years ago. Highly relevant.

[HibsMax]

OK. So there was a predictions for the first 6 games thread a while back and I just went through it to tabulate people's thoughts back then. There were 3 people who posted optimistic and pessimistic predictions and I included them as though they were two separate predictions rather than taking an average. The results are below. As you can see, 36 people voted. After 4 games Hibs have already met or exceeded the expectations of 16 of those people. With 6 points up for grabs Hibs can get to 13 points so 5 people overestimated. If Hibs get just 1 point from the next 2 games then we will be at the level expected by 20 people. You can continue the analysis yourself but I would say that based on that one thread, Hibs are doing better than most people predicted.

I know you can't do this with football but if we estimate the next two results based on that past 4, we will be on 10.5 points. I'll round that down to 10. 10 points after 6 games meets or exceeds the expectations of 26 out of 36 people and that seems pretty reasonable to me. Does it mean we'll finish 2nd? Hell no but that's no reason to ignore the better-than-expected start. Well, to some people it is but I can't speak for them.



Points after 6 games
Votes


0
2


2
3


3
2


4
1


5
4


7
4


8
4


9
1


10
6


11
3


13
1


15
1


18
4

[Dirkster23]

OK. So there was a predictions for the first 6 games thread a while back and I just went through it to tabulate people's thoughts back then. There were 3 people who posted optimistic and pessimistic predictions and I included them as though they were two separate predictions rather than taking an average. The results are below. As you can see, 36 people voted. After 4 games Hibs have already met or exceeded the expectations of 16 of those people. With 6 points up for grabs Hibs can get to 13 points so 5 people overestimated. If Hibs get just 1 point from the next 2 games then we will be at the level expected by 20 people. You can continue the analysis yourself but I would say that based on that one thread, Hibs are doing better than most people predicted.

I know you can't do this with football but if we estimate the next two results based on that past 4, we will be on 10.5 points. I'll round that down to 10. 10 points after 6 games meets or exceeds the expectations of 26 out of 36 people and that seems pretty reasonable to me. Does it mean we'll finish 2nd? Hell no but that's no reason to ignore the better-than-expected start. Well, to some people it is but I can't speak for them.



Points after 6 games
Votes


0
2


2
3


3
2


4
1


5
4


7
4


8
4


9
1


10
6


11
3


13
1


15
1


18
4























Why not just wait and see how the next 2 games go rather than guessing what points we'll get? After all, If we lose both, it'll be a worse than expected start according to the poll.

[Captain Trips]

Not enough progress made for me. He has ben here for 9 months and I expect to see more in that time than what we have, he has showed nothing for me to suggest that after 2yrs which is a time frame mentioned a lot that we will be better for it. In 9 months we are not far enough down the road.

9 months 7 SPL wins and 2 cup disasters, is that progress?

[hibsbollah]

I look at it this way; we've had 90 unacceptable minutes against Dundee Utd and QOS, 90 very encouraging minutes against Hearts and St Mirren (under the rack for 30 mins but i choose to give credit for an excellent defensive display) and 45 unacceptable minutes followed by 45 very good minutes against St Johnstone.

So to summarise, we've had two and a half games of total pish, and two and a half games of good performances in the five games so far. And im totally clueless as to which team will emerge from the confusion :dunno: I suspect much of it will depend on to what extent McPakes influence rubs off on the rest of the players. Our captain has as big a responsibility as Fenlon this season IMO.

[frazeHFC]

I think we have made progress in the fact that our best 11 is better than the previous couple, however a few injuries or suspensions and our back-up players are awful. It's too early to talk about progress, only after 15/20 games will we really be able to tell.

[Captain Trips]

I think we have made progress in the fact that our best 11 is better than the previous couple, however a few injuries or suspensions and our back-up players are awful. It's too early to talk about progress, only after 15/20 games will we really be able to tell.

It is not a "fact" our first team is better as most new players have hardly played also he has had over 20 games in charge, PF has to be judged from day 1. CC was judged from day 1 he just didnt appear crap after 10 games of his next season.

[HibsMax]

Why not just wait and see how the next 2 games go rather than guessing what points we'll get? After all, If we lose both, it'll be a worse than expected start according to the poll.
Because the point was made that there is too much emphasis being placed on being 2nd after 4 games. I qualified the statement before I made it.

"I know you can't do this with football..."

I didn't put it forward as fact. In fact, all I did was lay out the facts for interpretation before daring to make a statement about what might be. I didn't say we would win or lose those other 2 games, I decided to use a fair method which was to take a simple average. For it to be more accurate I would need much more data and need to take other things into account such as previous records, home vs away, etc.

[HibsMax]

Not enough progress made for me. He has ben here for 9 months and I expect to see more in that time than what we have, he has showed nothing for me to suggest that after 2yrs which is a time frame mentioned a lot that we will be better for it. In 9 months we are not far enough down the road.

9 months 7 SPL wins and 2 cup disasters, is that progress?

It depends on how you want to slice it. We can use the exact same facts and paint two different pictures.

I don't think getting to a Scottish Cup final should be classified as a disaster. What we did when we got there was horrendous but we still got there.

This is a very different team than the one that played in that cup final. Do they not deserve a little time to show what they can do? Or should we just assume they'll be as bad as the players they replaced?

[HibsMax]

It is not a "fact" our first team is better as most new players have hardly played also he has had over 20 games in charge, PF has to be judged from day 1. CC was judged from day 1 he just didnt appear crap after 10 games of his next season.
So if the new players have hardly played, how are you so convinced that we haven't made any progress? If the new players need more time together before we can judge them, the same must follow for Fenlon? Something is not adding up here.

[erskine-hibby]

Personally I feel we have made some progress, though I must say not as much as I hoped for, or expected.
It was blatantly clear that last season the players we had were not good enough. Fenlon all but said that we would have a complete new team this season and that the vast majority would be gone. Well many have gone but obviously not enough, nor has the he brought in enough new players either. I really thought we would have gone into the preseason with our team built, but it seems we are going into our usual mode of shopping in the bargain basement near the end of the transfer window. There is still time to make an impact on the league, but we are also out of one competition at a very early stage and that is not good for the finances to help bring in more needed players. So my progress report reads 'could do much better'.

[Captain Trips]

So if the new players have hardly played, how are you so convinced that we haven't made any progress? If the new players need more time together before we can judge them, the same must follow for Fenlon? Something is not adding up here.


Simple as of now there has been no real progress, if these players turn out fine and the wins come then there has been, so as of now 7 SPL wins is not progress it is roughly more of what has went before.

[lobster]

Progess is crab-like :wink:

[JimBHibees]

Not enough progress made for me. He has ben here for 9 months and I expect to see more in that time than what we have, he has showed nothing for me to suggest that after 2yrs which is a time frame mentioned a lot that we will be better for it. In 9 months we are not far enough down the road.

9 months 7 SPL wins and 2 cup disasters, is that progress?

Jeezo give the guy a chance he is now coming through the first real window and the last three league games have been encouraging. Yesterday showed clearly we need 3 or 4 more players. Lets see how we are doing come xmas. You seem determined to write the guy off before he has had a proper chance.

[hibsbollah]

Fenlon got some loan signings that saved us from relegation and drove the cup run. Make no mistake, we were going down under Colin. Then he got a window, and our new players have definitely improved the team. Five games into the new season and performances and results have been mixed.

This season is his make or break, but lets not pretend he hasnt made some improvements.

[Baldy Foghorn]

What about it? Fans doing cartwheels because we finish 6th in the league just doesn't wash with me. It's like Arsenal fans who think winning naff all for years and finishing 4th every year is success :confused:. Would always take an 8th place finish and a cup final over 6th place in the league.

Who is doing cartwheels???

I would take whatever finish sees the Club benefitting the most financially......

[judas]

This thread a wind up? Have I taken the bait?

The club, manager, players and supporters should be bothered we only really have two chances (Slim Chances) of silverwear every season, that's one down and we aren't even out of August! Our club aren't Man Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea we need good cup runs in order to get much needed funds to spend on players during the transfer windows.

I'll be honest the folk who think this result should be swept under the carpet need there head examined. We have been played off the park by a second division team, they brought on a player Willie Gibson in the second half who I've played against a few years back and he's shocking.

Hibs players and staff should be ashamed of themselves after that.

I agree, but I would go further.

This club does not have a winning mentality anymore. Aspiration is just a long word and we are no longer a club with the pedigree, borne out of hard work, honour and victory.

We settle for a level that is patently not acceptable. Even our response to the cup final defeat has been muted. The greatest shame in our history, met with the usual menial cyclical drivel on hibs net. Fenlon should have been chased down Leith Walk and into the North Sea. The players should have been too scared to come back to Edinburgh.

[Captain Trips]

Fenlon got some loan signings that saved us from relegation and drove the cup run. Make no mistake, we were going down under Colin. Then he got a window, and our new players have definitely improved the team. Five games into the new season and performances and results have been mixed.

This season is his make or break, but lets not pretend he hasnt made some improvements.

Total conjectur we were not bottom of SPL when CC went, Dunfermline being poor saved us not PF.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Total conjectur we were not bottom of SPL when CC went, Dunfermline being poor saved us not PF.

So was the 4-0 defeat of the pars only because they were woeful then??.....:confused::confused:

PF's remit last season was to keep us in SPL, which he achieved.....A Cup Final as well, he really is a duff manager eh....:rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

Total conjectur we were not bottom of SPL when CC went, Dunfermline being poor saved us not PF.



I think you need to be a bit more objective. He was the manager, are you willing to give him ANY credit?

[Captain Trips]

So was the 4-0 defeat of the pars only because they were woeful then??.....:confused::confused:

PF's remit last season was to keep us in SPL, which he achieved.....A Cup Final as well, he really is a duff manager eh....:rolleyes:

In your opinion I do not believe for 1min RP said stop us being relegated, I think his remit was improve our SPL position the result of that would go hand in hand with not being relegated, he was imo not simply tasked with saving us from the drop which at time we were not bottom.

[Captain Trips]

I think you need to be a bit more objective. He was the manager, are you willing to give him ANY credit?

I will give him credit where it is due, for SC cup run but all else, I do not think 7 SPL wins is deserving of credit, if sothen CC deserves credit. If you were told when CC was sacked for the new guy to manage 5 wins, if you knew that before he joined I think we would have been bricking it. We never improved the pars were worse pure and simple.

[richard_pitts]

I will give him credit where it is due, for SC cup run but all else, I do not think 7 SPL wins is deserving of credit, if sothen CC deserves credit. If you were told when CC was sacked for the new guy to manage 5 wins, if you knew that before he joined I think we would have been bricking it. We never improved the pars were worse pure and simple.

Fenlon signed a load of short-termers to keep us up because relegation was a very real possibility. Getting us to a cup final even with luck of the draw was very good although Kerjobbie and (who the **** is) Claros should really never have played again after the final. As for this season we're already half way to last season's home win tally :shocked:

[Captain Trips]

Fenlon signed a load of short-termers to keep us up because relegation was a very real possibility. Getting us to a cup final even with luck of the draw was very good although Kerjobbie and (who the **** is) Claros should really never have played again after the final. As for this season we're already half way to last season's home win tally :shocked:

I am fully aware of what he did, he signed a load of short termers that kept us basically on the same level but a level better than Dunfermline a level we were at anyway. I will give him credit when clear progress is made, I am not celebrating 7 SPL wins from him in 9 months.

Teams in worse states than ours manage to turn things a bit faster, he should not need 2yrs or anything like that to sort out club, after 9mths we should have a strong squad able to be rotated to beat QOS not just an awrite first 11 with some major question mark players ready to move in.

Again I hope he turns it but it needs turned now.

[HibsMax]

Simple as of now there has been no real progress, if these players turn out fine and the wins come then there has been, so as of now 7 SPL wins is not progress it is roughly more of what has went before.

I do hear what you're saying but if we compare the points gained after the first four games of last season with this season, there has been progress made. I am not sure how else we can make an accurate comparison at this stage. The true measure comes at the end of the season, not after 4 games, but when trying to figure out how we're doing we have to look at the facts that we have.

I know that you want to look at Fenlon's time at Hibs in its entirety, and there is nothing wrong with doing that if we're comparing the relative success of various Hibs managers but I really don't think we can look at all the games he's presided over when trying to determine the success of this year's team versus last year's team....if you see what I am saying? The reason we can't use all of the matches that Fenlon has been in charge of is that the team is very different. There are some of the same players still at Hibs but the team IS different so we need to draw a line under last year's team and start collecting stats for this "new" team.

[Captain Trips]

I do hear what you're saying but if we compare the points gained after the first four games of last season with this season, there has been progress made. I am not sure how else we can make an accurate comparison at this stage. The true measure comes at the end of the season, not after 4 games, but when trying to figure out how we're doing we have to look at the facts that we have.

I know that you want to look at Fenlon's time at Hibs in its entirety, and there is nothing wrong with doing that if we're comparing the relative success of various Hibs managers but I really don't think we can look at all the games he's presided over when trying to determine the success of this year's team versus last year's team....if you see what I am saying? The reason we can't use all of the matches that Fenlon has been in charge of is that the team is very different. There are some of the same players still at Hibs but the team IS different so we need to draw a line under last year's team and start collecting stats for this "new" team.

You make some good points however at the start of last season there was a lot of people wanting rid of CC and when most of the people who wanted rid did not just base that on his first few games before he was punted, I wanted rid along with a lot of other for the lack of any real progress since day 1 (and he was an erse).

CC won I think 8 SPL matches after taking over so in theory his 3/4 first season was better than PFs league wise, PF has started his first full season in SPL looking perhaps better. All I am saying is in 9 months I think we should be a lot further down the road, CCs record is p1ss poor and should by now have been easily surpased by PF, IMO it is to close therefore for me I am concerned that we do not have the right man in charge as it should not take so long for us to improve.

John Co9llins had to replace players sold for millions with real ability virtually impossible on our budget CC and PF had to replace dross with no ability so really they should have done a lot better than CC did and PF is doing. It seems PF is getting cut slack as he seems a better guy than CC.

[HibsMax]

Just thought I would update this (until 6 games have passed).

36 people voted.
After 5 games Hibs have already met or exceeded the expectations of 20 of those people.
Looking forward to the next game :


if Hibs get 0 points then the stats stay the same.
if Hibs get 1 point then 1 more person has had their expectations met (total = 21)
if Hibs get 3 points then 10 more people have had their expectations met (total = 30)


There are 6 people whose expectations cannot be met and if the people who voted 18 originally were in the same mindset as me, that was more of a fanciful hope than a genuine expectation / prediction (but those were all valid votes so I am not removing them to make the numbers look better).

20 / 36 isn't bad so far and if we do beat Killie that would mean 30 / 36 and I think that's pretty damn good.



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[HibsMax]

You make some good points however at the start of last season there was a lot of people wanting rid of CC and when most of the people who wanted rid did not just base that on his first few games before he was punted, I wanted rid along with a lot of other for the lack of any real progress since day 1 (and he was an erse).

CC won I think 8 SPL matches after taking over so in theory his 3/4 first season was better than PFs league wise, PF has started his first full season in SPL looking perhaps better. All I am saying is in 9 months I think we should be a lot further down the road, CCs record is p1ss poor and should by now have been easily surpased by PF, IMO it is to close therefore for me I am concerned that we do not have the right man in charge as it should not take so long for us to improve.

John Co9llins had to replace players sold for millions with real ability virtually impossible on our budget CC and PF had to replace dross with no ability so really they should have done a lot better than CC did and PF is doing. It seems PF is getting cut slack as he seems a better guy than CC.

What do you mean by "further down the road"? I know we got pumped out the league cup and no amount of number crunching is going to change that. But in terms of league results, barring that first horror show, I think we have definitely shown improvement, and continue to do so.

I can't say why Fenlon is getting cut more slack than CC but I think you're not far off with your suggestion. CC lost the fans with the whole "bag of sweeties" comment IMO.

[Famous5forever]

In your opinion I do not believe for 1min RP said stop us being relegated, I think his remit was improve our SPL position the result of that would go hand in hand with not being relegated, he was imo not simply tasked with saving us from the drop which at time we were not bottom.

Dunfermline kept us up because they were murder i would have thought Paddys target for this season would have been a good run in both cups and a top 6 finish the league is a long campeign so have to see how we fare as for cup runs you would say he fell at the first hurdle if he was in a horse race.

A Good and unexpected point was gained on Saturday though:top marks

[JimBHibees]

I am fully aware of what he did, he signed a load of short termers that kept us basically on the same level but a level better than Dunfermline a level we were at anyway. I will give him credit when clear progress is made, I am not celebrating 7 SPL wins from him in 9 months.

Teams in worse states than ours manage to turn things a bit faster, he should not need 2yrs or anything like that to sort out club, after 9mths we should have a strong squad able to be rotated to beat QOS not just an awrite first 11 with some major question mark players ready to move in.

Again I hope he turns it but it needs turned now.

Surely this seasons league games are sufficient evidence of progress. I amazed that you think otherwise to be honest. Of course it is early days and we still have a weak squad as shown by the awful result in the league cup however I would hope that most Hibs fans would see that PF's signings appear to have improved the team at least this far. Also like that he isnt afraid to get rid of players he considers to be liabilities.

[Scouse Hibee]

Do you feel better about attending Hibs games this season? I do.

Can you see a team with spirit and passion on the pitch as opposed to last season? I can.

Have you left Easter Road this season feeling satisfied with what you have witnessed? I have.

Do you feel the team and the supporters are galvanised as one and have the same ambition? I do.


Can you sum up all of the above with one word? I can.

PROGRESS.

[J-C]

Dunfermline kept us up because they were murder i would have thought Paddys target for this season would have been a good run in both cups and a top 6 finish the league is a long campeign so have to see how we fare as for cup runs you would say he fell at the first hurdle if he was in a horse race.

A Good and unexpected point was gained on Saturday though:top marks

Those players brought in for the QOS game should've still been good enough to get the job done, it only emphasized how crap the rest of the squad is. There was no way PF could give us a whole new squad in the time period but he has given us a decent starting 11 with 2-3 back up, it's a start but I think we all knew he needed at least 2 windows to get the job done.

[Hibee87]

Do you feel better about attending Hibs games this season? I do.

Can you see a team with spirit and passion on the pitch as opposed to last season? I can.

Have you left Easter Road this season this season feeling satisfied with what you have witnessed? I have.

Do you feel the team and the supporters are galvanised as one and have the same ambition? I do.


Can you sum all of the above up with one word? I can.

PROGRESS.

:top marks

this is how I and several of my hibee workmates feel also. Lat season was murder we were woeful and there was no passion in the team, I feared the worst after the Dundee utd game. Since then we have come on leaps and bounds. We are still miles away form being the complete artice dont get me wrong, but you can see the passion in the players the willingness and heart to carry on. We have went behind to hearts and celtic and not dropped our heads but battled on. Fenlon seems to have ideas in his head about the type of player he wants - Pros who will play for the jersey. things are coming together and athoer 2 transfer windows i feel we sill start to see a nice settled team which is what weve been crying out for not this manager merry go round we have had overe the last 4 or 5 years +.

onwards and upwards, the futures bright, green and white GGTTH and FTH :flag::pfgwa:flag:

[Kato]

Teams in worse states than ours manage to turn things a bit faster,

Which teams?


he should not need 2yrs or anything like that to sort out club,

Why not? It's been slipping down the way for 5 years.

I'd rather he took 2 years to sort it properly than go for the "flash in the pan" route a la Hughes.

Even though the last day of the transfer window was a bit disappointing I'd rather he didn't sign anyone than sign the wrong people just for window dressing.

I reckon some underestimate just how far we have fallen and how hard it is to change not just the personel, but to change the whole outlook of the club.

Anyone promising a quick fix is snake oil salesman. Anyone who thinks that on our budget and in our position that a quick fix is do-able really needs to think again rather coming up with a whole load of "we shoulds".

[JimBHibees]

Which teams?



Why not? It's been slipping down the way for 5 years.

I'd rather he took 2 years to sort it properly than go for the "flash in the pan" route a la Hughes.

Even though the last day of the transfer window was a bit disappointing I'd rather he didn't sign anyone than sign the wrong people just for window dressing.

I reckon some underestimate just how far we have fallen and how hard it is to change not just the personel, but to change the whole outlook of the club.

Anyone promising a quick fix is snake oil salesman. Anyone who thinks that on our budget and in our position that a quick fix is do-able really needs to think again rather coming up with a whole load of "we shoulds".

Agree with that.

[Liams]

Too many fans are living in the past.. We need to relies that when PF took over our team it was dire with heartless players and journey men not the famous 5... In jan he signed areas in which we needed, ie - leader, defenders, midfield and uptop while getting rid of the drift wood.. He then took us too a final and didnt get relegated.
This year we signed 8players (where due to money other teams couldnt) loaned out fringe/players needing games, brought in youth and got rid of more players. Apart from utd we have got points in every game, against teams that are seen as top 6..

The question isnt progress its more future.. Im confident that we will be a team clubs fear in a seaon or two..

[Famous5forever]

Too many fans are living in the past.. We need to relies that when PF took over our team it was dire with heartless players and journey men not the famous 5... In jan he signed areas in which we needed, ie - leader, defenders, midfield and uptop while getting rid of the drift wood.. He then took us too a final and didnt get relegated.
This year we signed 8players (where due to money other teams couldnt) loaned out fringe/players needing games, brought in youth and got rid of more players. Apart from utd we have got points in every game, against teams that are seen as top 6..

The question isnt progress its more future.. Im confident that we will be a team clubs fear in a seaon or two..

That will depend on who is at the Helm in a season or 2 i am still not convinced Paddy will last the season knowing how trigger happy Don Teflon gets when an AGM Is due.:cb

[JimBHibees]

[/B]

That will depend on who is at the Helm in a season or 2 i am still not convinced Paddy will last the season knowing how trigger happy Don Teflon gets when an AGM Is due.:cb

Of course he will.

[Liams]

[/B]

That will depend on who is at the Helm in a season or 2 i am still not convinced Paddy will last the season knowing how trigger happy Don Teflon gets when an AGM Is due.:cb

I believe RP will give PF alot more time than others mainly because of the funds he has supllied to PF so far

[NatureBoy]

[/B]

That will depend on who is at the Helm in a season or 2 i am still not convinced Paddy will last the season knowing how trigger happy Don Teflon gets when an AGM Is due.:cb

The only way Paddy's job will be under any sort of threat will be if we're somehow cut adrift at the bottom of the table come AGM time, judging by our good start to the season that doesn't look very likely (touch wood)!
Progress has definitely been made I think even the most staunch Fenlon basher can admit to that. I personally think Pat's doing a good job, hopefully he gets backing to bring in a couple more free agents and it may just turn into a very pleasing season indeed.

[soupy]

Do you feel better about attending Hibs games this season? I do.

Can you see a team with spirit and passion on the pitch as opposed to last season? I can.

Have you left Easter Road this season feeling satisfied with what you have witnessed? I have.

Do you feel the team and the supporters are galvanised as one and have the same ambition? I do.


Can you sum up all of the above with one word? I can.

PROGRESS.

Agree with all of this, well said Scouse...

[Stevie Reid]

Do you feel better about attending Hibs games this season? I do.

Can you see a team with spirit and passion on the pitch as opposed to last season? I can.

Have you left Easter Road this season feeling satisfied with what you have witnessed? I have.

Do you feel the team and the supporters are galvanised as one and have the same ambition? I do.


Can you sum up all of the above with one word? I can.

PROGRESS.

:top marks

[jacomo]

John Co9llins had to replace players sold for millions with real ability virtually impossible on our budget CC and PF had to replace dross with no ability so really they should have done a lot better than CC did and PF is doing. It seems PF is getting cut slack as he seems a better guy than CC.

All very true, but I also think PF has been cut some slack because:

1. He was clearly dealt the worst hand of any recent manager
2. He clearly wants to be here and make a success of things at Hibs
3. We have changed manager far too frequently and some stability is needed

PF has certainly made mistakes - what he needs to do is learn from them. He needs time to do that and results will buy him that time.

I also think the trading he has done this summer has been undeniably impressive - yes the Hibs squad is light and injuries or suspensions will leave us exposed, but he has been strong-minded in moving on those who aren't right for us and fought for those who could improve the team.

[Beefster]

I believe RP will give PF alot more time than others mainly because of the funds he has supllied to PF so far

What funds? Given the number of players released versus the number recruited, our wage bill is probably lower than it was at the end of last season.

[Captain Trips]

All very true, but I also think PF has been cut some slack because:

1. He was clearly dealt the worst hand of any recent manager
2. He clearly wants to be here and make a success of things at Hibs
3. We have changed manager far too frequently and some stability is needed

PF has certainly made mistakes - what he needs to do is learn from them. He needs time to do that and results will buy him that time.

I also think the trading he has done this summer has been undeniably impressive - yes the Hibs squad is light and injuries or suspensions will leave us exposed, but he has been strong-minded in moving on those who aren't right for us and fought for those who could improve the team.

Disagree JCcould never replace all the players we sold so we were always going to have a dip. Mixu, Hughes, CC and PF had a far easier job of improving what was left. I would far rather replace your Scotts, Trakys, Van Zantens, Obriens, Gows than even trying to get in replacemenys for Brown, Thomson etc. I am not saying JC was a great manager just that IMO he has had the hardest job of the last 4. If the last 4 managers cannot find better than what they really did deserve punted.

2nd bold that does not mean we just stick with things, if he looks like failing then he has to go, I hope though the run we are on is the start of something.

[Famous5forever]

Disagree JCcould never replace all the players we sold so we were always going to have a dip. Mixu, Hughes, CC and PF had a far easier job of improving what was left. I would far rather replace your Scotts, Trakys, Van Zantens, Obriens, Gows than even trying to get in replacemenys for Brown, Thomson etc. I am not saying JC was a great manager just that IMO he has had the hardest job of the last 4. If the last 4 managers cannot find better than what they really did deserve punted.

2nd bold that does not mean we just stick with things, if he looks like failing then he has to go, I hope though the run we are on is the start of something.

Lets be honest we all thought when we beat Rangers 3-0 at Ibrox under CC We had turned the corner i just hope our draw with Celtic is not our high point under Paddy the league cup defeat was hard to swallow and last seasons relegation escape was due to Dunfermline being pish not us making any progress and lets not mention the Scottish cup nightmare which is the worst result in our proud clubs history.

Progress i will reserve judjement as we have been let down too many times before and i still feel the dark shadow of Petrie is a negative effect on our club he has dodged more bullets than that guy in the Matrix.

Lets give it till the end of the year and decide then if there is any progress

[The Falcon]

Disagree JCcould never replace all the players we sold so we were always going to have a dip. Mixu, Hughes, CC and PF had a far easier job of improving what was left. I would far rather replace your Scotts, Trakys, Van Zantens, Obriens, Gows than even trying to get in replacemenys for Brown, Thomson etc. I am not saying JC was a great manager just that IMO he has had the hardest job of the last 4. If the last 4 managers cannot find better than what they really did deserve punted.


That argument only holds water because they had a much lower starting point and the fact that it was JC is immaterial, it could have been anybody.

[Captain Trips]

That argument only holds water because they had a much lower starting point and the fact that it was JC is immaterial, it could have been anybody.

JC happened to be the manager yes which could have been anybody, my point is the manager who came in at the time JC did had a far harder job than the next 3.

[HibsMax]

JC happened to be the manager yes which could have been anybody, my point is the manager who came in at the time JC did had a far harder job than the next 3.

Is that true? Genuine question because I'm not as good with remembering all the players over the years as other people. JC had to replace better players but Fenlon started out with almost literally nothing at all - not just a team that had recently lost stars.

I actually think it is fair to say that all the managers we've had over the past few years have had their issues to overcome. Nobody has really had it "easy". It's not the Hibs way.

[Captain Trips]

Is that true? Genuine question because I'm not as good with remembering all the players over the years as other people. JC had to replace better players but Fenlon started out with almost literally nothing at all - not just a team that had recently lost stars.

I actually think it is fair to say that all the managers we've had over the past few years have had their issues to overcome. Nobody has really had it "easy". It's not the Hibs way.

Never it was it easy, I said easier and IMO I would rather come in after Hughes or CC as I think will have been and should have been an easier task to replace bad players than replacing players sold for millions unless you got the millions to spend.

[matty_f]

Never it was it easy, I said easier and IMO I would rather come in after Hughes or CC as I think will have been and should have been an easier task to replace bad players than replacing players sold for millions unless you got the millions to spend.

Collins had to replace players largely brought through the youth set up and/or brought to the club for next to nothing. He spent what money he was given very poorly.

[HibsMax]

Never it was it easy, I said easier and IMO I would rather come in after Hughes or CC as I think will have been and should have been an easier task to replace bad players than replacing players sold for millions unless you got the millions to spend.

This doesn't make sense to me. We're not trying to replace like with like, just assemble a team of decent players. If JC was tasked with replacing the good players that left with players of the same calibre than I would agree with you. If PF was tasked with replacing the crap players we had with more crap players, I would agree with you. I would say that both JC and PF had the same task, to build a stable, decent team. What players we had beforehand, or at that time, is largely irrelevant IMO.

I don't think anyone really expected that we would lose players of Brown's talent and replace them with players who fit the same mold. There was always going to be a drop in talent. So if you say that JC's team was an A you could say that by losing the players we did we were hoping to get to a B. A drop of a grade. Now PF's team was a C (I'm being generous) and we wanted to punt most of those players and replace them with better players...hopefully getting from a C up to a B. Even though JC started with A and PF started with C, the end goal was the same. If we can agree that there was no expectation for JC to replace like with like, how was his job more difficult?

Hopefully that makes some sense. :)

[Captain Trips]

This doesn't make sense to me. We're not trying to replace like with like, just assemble a team of decent players. If JC was tasked with replacing the good players that left with players of the same calibre than I would agree with you. If PF was tasked with replacing the crap players we had with more crap players, I would agree with you. I would say that both JC and PF had the same task, to build a stable, decent team. What players we had beforehand, or at that time, is largely irrelevant IMO.

I don't think anyone really expected that we would lose players of Brown's talent and replace them with players who fit the same mold. There was always going to be a drop in talent. So if you say that JC's team was an A you could say that by losing the players we did we were hoping to get to a B. A drop of a grade. Now PF's team was a C (I'm being generous) and we wanted to punt most of those players and replace them with better players...hopefully getting from a C up to a B. Even though JC started with A and PF started with C, the end goal was the same. If we can agree that there was no expectation for JC to replace like with like, how was his job more difficult?

Hopefully that makes some sense. :)

His job was more difficult as we had a standard of player that yes I agree I never thought we would replace but he would be in charge of a team without doubt that had worse players than before so therefore IMO he had more issues to overcome.

[HibsMax]

I agree that his job was more difficult in terms of maintaining the same standard but we also knew there would be a drop in standards when those players left. If we all accept there was going to be a drop in standards then both managers had the same task. It could be argued that Fenlon had the more difficult task since he didn't really have anything to build on at all.

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. Fenlon does seem, to me, to have made progress this season over last.

[Kato]

His job was more difficult as we had a standard of player that yes I agree I never thought we would replace but he would be in charge of a team without doubt that had worse players than before so therefore IMO he had more issues to overcome.

What about the general atmosphere, confidence and attractiveness to proposed signings surrounding the club.

Do you think Collins had a harder job taking that into consideration?

[HibsMax]

We're 6 games into the season, let's see how we're doing....

36 people voted and of those 36 people only 6 (16.67%) people thought we would have more than 11 points. 4 of those people, myself included, predicted 18 points and even though I think those votes were mostly tongue in cheek I am leaving them in because it's not for me to judge anyone else's intent.

BUT, if I did assume that those were "joke" votes, Hibs would have exceeded the expectations of 30 / 32 people i.e., 93.75%. That aside, 83.33% is a pretty decent number too.



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[Captain Trips]

We're 6 games into the season, let's see how we're doing....

36 people voted and of those 36 people only 6 (16.67%) people thought we would have more than 11 points. 4 of those people, myself included, predicted 18 points and even though I think those votes were mostly tongue in cheek I am leaving them in because it's not for me to judge anyone else's intent.

BUT, if I did assume that those were "joke" votes, Hibs would have exceeded the expectations of 30 / 32 people i.e., 93.75%. That aside, 83.33% is a pretty decent number too.



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It appears we have moved on but 3 wins still does not convince me as yet but the signs are good. I get criticised for saying manager might not be up to task with both CC and PF after a serious amount of matches yet if it is a positive reaction like now we have won a few games thats ok to judge.

I hiope PF is the right man but rightfully IMO it wiull take a lot more results to convince me but he does get my support, just mind CC got manager of month in Feburary so for me that is a warning to always be aware we may not have turned corner, however the signs are seeming to be there but it will take a lot more begore I admit I was wrong :greengrin

[HibsMax]

It appears we have moved on but 3 wins still does not convince me as yet but the signs are good. I get criticised for saying manager might not be up to task with both CC and PF after a serious amount of matches yet if it is a positive reaction like now we have won a few games thats ok to judge.

I hiope PF is the right man but rightfully IMO it wiull take a lot more results to convince me but he does get my support, just mind CC got manager of month in Feburary so for me that is a warning to always be aware we may not have turned corner, however the signs are seeming to be there but it will take a lot more begore I admit I was wrong :greengrin

I amn't commenting on anything you maybe said about CC, only PF. I think it's clear that PF has made changes for the better.............even though you can still look at his entire tenure and paint a different picture. My point is, and always has been, that the team is very different now and so to include last year's players in the assessment of change is unfair since the team is different.

That is not to say that things won't go down the toilet, and if they do there will be plenty on here to pound that point home. The main point is that PF has exceeded the expectations of more than 80% of the people who took part in the poll and that's pretty impressive IMO.

I know what you are trying to say, and I agree with you to an extent. The first 6 games are not an indication of the next 32 but the signs are positive, as you have acknowledged.

I wonder what people's predictions for the next 6 games would be....

[Kato]

What about the general atmosphere, confidence and attractiveness to proposed signings surrounding the club.

Do you think Collins had a harder job taking that into consideration?


Cough.

[Captain Trips]

What about the general atmosphere, confidence and attractiveness to proposed signings surrounding the club.

Do you think Collins had a harder job taking that into consideration?

I think the atmosphere etc will be secondary to what wages the players are offered. We have signed good and bad players when up or down so I do not think that would be a major bonus.

[HibsMax]

Hibs currently on a 5-game unbeaten run (in the league). You have to go back to Feb/Mar last year to find the last time we did that. Before that you have to go back another 2 years when we managed a 6-game unbeaten run.

[Kato]

I think the atmosphere etc will be secondary to what wages the players are offered.

But it's still very important.


We have signed good and bad players when up or down so I do not think that would be a major bonus.

You don't think it would be a major bonus. You said it was secondary to wages so that makes it very important.

For what it's worth players the world over take those factors into account, they all want good wages but a feel good factor at a club is also a major attraction in deciding to sign.

E.G.

If we were doing well in the League and everything Hibs was hunky dory in the press do you think St Mirren's Goodwin would have been more likely to sign for us?

I think he would have done.

How's about you?

[Captain Trips]

But it's still very important.



You don't think it would be a major bonus. You said it was secondary to wages so that makes it very important.

For what it's worth players the world over take those factors into account, they all want good wages but a feel good factor at a club is also a major attraction in deciding to sign.

E.G.

If we were doing well in the League and everything Hibs was hunky dory in the press do you think St Mirren's Goodwin would have been more likely to sign for us?

I think he would have done.

How's about you?

We have signed plenty of good players when things have been down, the ego of most players will be they will make difference. Regardless of anything my opinion is still the same on JC and all who followed.

The goodwin thing is nonsense IMO if offered right package he would have joined, with that thinking how did we sign anyone? You have mentioned Goodwin scenario and a reason why he didnt join with no evidence to support that to suit your point, therefore it is simple for me to say didnt join as not offered enough pay as that suits me.

We have missed out on plenty of players when we have been doing well and missed out on plenty when doing bad. We have signed great players when doing poorly and great players when doing well, swings and roundabouts.

[Captain Trips]

Hibs currently on a 5-game unbeaten run (in the league). You have to go back to Feb/Mar last year to find the last time we did that. Before that you have to go back another 2 years when we managed a 6-game unbeaten run.

Indeed when Cc got manager of month was that the sign we had turned corner? it turned out not hence why any manager needs to do a lot more than have a 5 match unbeaten run. I hope though that this is the start of something.

[cockneymike]

Slightly off the main thrust of this thread, but still broadly on the topic of progress. Its interesting to see Celtic post their results for last season:
http://www.business7.co.uk/business-news/company-results-and-forecasts/2012/09/18/celtic-football-club-posts-7-37m-annual-loss-106408-23926687/

Annual turnover of 51m

Hibs results for 10-11 (most recent not yet published I think):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/15348052

Annual turnover of 7m

I'm not intending to be critical of the club or us as fans. But closing that gap is probably the single most important thing we can do if we want to build a long term future as the 3rd club in Scotland. I've no real solutions to this problem other than us winning more games and getting more bums on seats, but I thought it was interesting to note the magnitude of the difference.

I'm starting to believe that PF is the man to do it though.

GGTTH

[Beefster]

Hibs currently on a 5-game unbeaten run (in the league). You have to go back to Feb/Mar last year to find the last time we did that. Before that you have to go back another 2 years when we managed a 6-game unbeaten run.

We went seven SPL games unbeaten last February/March IIRC. It was used as a big indicator of us having turned the corner under Calderwood after his January signings.

[Kato]

You have mentioned Goodwin scenario and a reason why he didnt join with no evidence to support that to suit your point

Evidence being that he didn't come and we did offer him more than he's getting at St Mirren.

Other point being I don't have a point.

I've neither lauded PF to high heaven or sniped away at his prospects since he arrived (as you have done.)

I can see it's going to take at least two seasons to "sort out" HFC as we fallen that far, so jumping on him after a few weeks is out of order as is his hailing him as the saviour after 5 decent results. But I'll support him whioleheartedly while he's trying to make the club better.

It's you that the problem, not me.

[Captain Trips]

Did not jump on after a few weeks. Insipid away and in past praised away when a manger has done well. You can see it will take 2 seasons I disagree it should be sorted during this one. Speculation that we offered less and as I stated which you ignored we have signed leads of good players when doing bad. Some players relish the chance to join a club struggling so they can be the difference.

You point which you did have was about the situation with PF etc and the conditions he had to sign players as posed to JC. I answered that still with JC job being more difficult.

[Hibtastic]

Did not jump on after a few weeks. Insipid away and in past praised away when a manger has done well. You can see it will take 2 seasons I disagree it should be sorted during this one. Speculation that we offered less and as I stated which you ignored we have signed leads of good players when doing bad. Some players relish the chance to join a club struggling so they can be the difference.

You point which you did have was about the situation with PF etc and the conditions he had to sign players as posed to JC. I answered that still with JC job being more difficult.

Who cares!! We are winning games at the moment surely thats what matters - not who had the hardest job! Lets just support our current team eh!! :pfgwa

[HibsMax]

We went seven SPL games unbeaten last February/March IIRC. It was used as a big indicator of us having turned the corner under Calderwood after his January signings.

I agree with you and Carlsberg with respect to this. That was a very weird time indeed. The team did just enough to stave off relegation and then shat the bed. That is evidence enough that the same could happen again.

I'm not trying to use the apparent progress we've made as a sign we're now world beaters or league champions but it is nice to see.

EDIT : I also agree with Kato that it will take more than one season to sort out this mess. This mess was not created in one season so it's fair to say it will take as long to fix. There are too many things wrong right now, and not just at Hibs. Here is what I think will likely happen IMO - best case scenario. Hibs will gradually improve and raise in stature thus attracting more players of a higher quality. As we get better we become more attractive. We're not going to do that overnight. Right now, or at least prior to the start of this season, Hibs were not seen as an attractive option to many players looking for another club. I mean, Scotland is not that attractive an option in the first place so it follows that teams lower in the league will have less to entice players with. It's possible, but I doubt it, that Hibs history will attract many players. It's all about "what can you do for me now?".