missed opportunity

[Mark79]

During the petrie era we have turned into a careful club that looks after its finances. Everyone in the scottish football world commenting on us being one of the best financially managed teams in the spl. Mostly because of the crop of talent we had 8 or 9 years ago and the money we got for (most) of them, along with careful management of wages.

The last 4 years have been murder. With relatively little in funds from player sales. We then spent a lot of cash on a new stand and training centre.

We now find ourselves at a time in scottish football where a loosening of the purse strings may bring the rewards of a second place and we are nowhere able to do anything. We have little in the way of players to sell because of the last 4 years of poor managers and players signed.

It all looked so promising during the mowbray era for us and we are paying for it now.

[500miles]

During the petrie era we have turned into a careful club that looks after its finances. Everyone in the scottish football world commenting on us being one of the best financially managed teams in the spl. Mostly because of the crop of talent we had 8 or 9 years ago and the money we got for (most) of them, along with careful management of wages.

The last 4 years have been murder. With relatively little in funds from player sales. We then spent a lot of cash on a new stand and training centre.

We now find ourselves at a time in scottish football where a loosening of the purse strings may bring the rewards of a second place and we are nowhere able to do anything. We have little in the way of players to sell because of the last 4 years of poor managers and players signed.

It all looked so promising during the mowbray era for us and we are paying for it now.

Woo. Second place. Stunning achievement. Nothing like a runners up medal.
It's just a Europa Cup spot these days, is it not?
Second is the new third.

[Mark79]

Woo. Second place. Stunning achievement. Nothing like a runners up medal.
It's just a Europa Cup spot these days, is it not?
Second is the new third.

Realisticly thats our aim without the huns. If you think we could honestly beat celtic to the title?

[VickMackie]

I said a season or two ago it was the right thing to do with infrastructure to put us on an excellent footing when others were facing financial troubles.

I still think it was right but on the field we can't capitalise.

[Andy74]

During the petrie era we have turned into a careful club that looks after its finances. Everyone in the scottish football world commenting on us being one of the best financially managed teams in the spl. Mostly because of the crop of talent we had 8 or 9 years ago and the money we got for (most) of them, along with careful management of wages.

The last 4 years have been murder. With relatively little in funds from player sales. We then spent a lot of cash on a new stand and training centre.

We now find ourselves at a time in scottish football where a loosening of the purse strings may bring the rewards of a second place and we are nowhere able to do anything. We have little in the way of players to sell because of the last 4 years of poor managers and players signed.

It all looked so promising during the mowbray era for us and we are paying for it now.

Dunno why no one has mentioned it before now?

[500miles]

Realisticly thats our aim without the huns. If you think we could honestly beat celtic to the title?

Nope, I just don't get the "missed opportunity". Theres no more pride in coming second as there was in coming third. If we could chase a League title, aye, but second place is just another loser.

[blackpoolhibs]

Dunno why no one has mentioned it before now?

Dont you find it rather sad, how we are supposed to be at our strongest now with nothing to pay for except the mortgaged debt?

Except its more than mortgaged debt though, isn't it? We now have the extra cost of running East Mains, and the new East stand, i dont know what the cost is fot them, but its still added onto the costs we have each year

This is the time when we were supposed to pull away from those clubs who were struggling financially, yet look who the team is thats struggling Andy?

10/10 for shiny buildings, 2/10 for product on the park, with no signs of any improvement.

[BEEJ]

Dont you find it rather sad, how we are supposed to be at our strongest now with nothing to pay for except the mortgaged debt?

This is the time when we were supposed to pull away from those clubs who were struggling financially, yet look who the team is thats struggling Andy?
:agree: Wish I had a £1 coin for every time I've read that argument on here in the last five years.

I'd donate it to the club and halve their debt in one go.

:greengrin

[cocopops1875]

Dont you find it rather sad, how we are supposed to be at our strongest now with nothing to pay for except the mortgaged debt?

Except its more than mortgaged debt though, isn't it? We now have the extra cost of running East Mains, and the new East stand, i dont know what the cost is fot them, but its still added onto the costs we have each year

This is the time when we were supposed to pull away from those clubs who were struggling financially, yet look who the team is thats struggling Andy?

10/10 for shiny buildings, 2/10 for product on the park, with no signs of any improvement.

I will give you the running cost of East Mains as a Factor but would Guess that the East probably doesnt cost much more to run than the old one :agree:

[Lee]

Woo. Second place. Stunning achievement. Nothing like a runners up medal.
It's just a Europa Cup spot these days, is it not?
Second is the new third.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that isn't the makings of a good season?

[matty_f]

Dont you find it rather sad, how we are supposed to be at our strongest now with nothing to pay for except the mortgaged debt?

Except its more than mortgaged debt though, isn't it? We now have the extra cost of running East Mains, and the new East stand, i dont know what the cost is fot them, but its still added onto the costs we have each year

This is the time when we were supposed to pull away from those clubs who were struggling financially, yet look who the team is thats struggling Andy?

10/10 for shiny buildings, 2/10 for product on the park, with no signs of any improvement.

It is really sad, but for some better appointments in the managerial role we should have been in a great position by now. Sadly we're not however that's not to say it'll always be like this.

Those things would still have been needed at some point at least now when we do get a manager who can make the most of them we won't have to watch as much money spent on the things we've already got.

If it came down to justifying the decisions to build East Mains and the East, the reasoning behind each still stands up. It wasn't those decisions that put us where we are now.

[Jim44]

I find it hilarious to read a 'supporter' of one of the worst if not the actual worst team in the SPL knocking the taking of second place in the league.

[500miles]

I find it hilarious to read a 'supporter' of one of the worst if not the actual worst team in the SPL knocking the taking of second place in the league.

I don't get why not being second place this season is worse than not being third any other season. It's not more of a missed opportunity than any other season.

[blackpoolhibs]

It is really sad, but for some better appointments in the managerial role we should have been in a great position by now. Sadly we're not however that's not to say it'll always be like this.

Those things would still have been needed at some point at least now when we do get a manager who can make the most of them we won't have to watch as much money spent on the things we've already got.

If it came down to justifying the decisions to build East Mains and the East, the reasoning behind each still stands up. It wasn't those decisions that put us where we are now.

I was for the new stand, and love we have a place to train properly, yet there are times like now when i do question whether it was worthwhile, the eye was taken off the ball somewhat on what brings the fans to the new stand and ground we have these days.

And with the new expense we will have, its not the bright new summer we were all dreaming of though is it Matty, and will be stopping funds we all want spent on more important matters?

[ScottB]

During the petrie era we have turned into a careful club that looks after its finances. Everyone in the scottish football world commenting on us being one of the best financially managed teams in the spl. Mostly because of the crop of talent we had 8 or 9 years ago and the money we got for (most) of them, along with careful management of wages.

The last 4 years have been murder. With relatively little in funds from player sales. We then spent a lot of cash on a new stand and training centre.

We now find ourselves at a time in scottish football where a loosening of the purse strings may bring the rewards of a second place and we are nowhere able to do anything. We have little in the way of players to sell because of the last 4 years of poor managers and players signed.

It all looked so promising during the mowbray era for us and we are paying for it now.

In the last what, 20 years that I've been old enough to pay attention to, we've had 2 decent sides.

McLeish's, assembled at (for us) vast expense that nearly bankrupted the club.

Mowbray's, which benefited massively from us happening to churn out large numbers of excellent youth players in a very short time.

Unless we luck in to another 'Golden Generation' we aren't going to have another squad to join those 2 on a pedestal. It's all very well to say 'spend more' but for what? Finishing second makes a couple hundred grand more than finishing 8th, European qualification for any Scottish club means being papped out long before there's any real money on offer, so throwing large amounts of money at the squad isn't viable in the long term without the income to back it up.

Not that the mess we are in is unacceptable, but that is down to every manager since Mowbray squandering huge amounts of the budget on dross. How many players did Collins / Mixu / Hughes / CC and now Fenlon bring in? 50 plus? We may have built infrastructure, but let's not imagine that we haven't signed any players. What we need is to spend smarter. Dundee United and Motherwell last season alone are solid examples of putting really good squads together for less than we spend.

We also need to be sorting out the youth system, which although looking a bit more hopeful for this season, has largely failed to produce what we need it to be doing; quality players we can benefit from for 3 or 4 seasons then sell on at a profit.

[BEEJ]

Those things would still have been needed at some point at least now when we do get a manager who can make the most of them we won't have to watch as much money spent on the things we've already got.
Are Dundee Utd and Motherwell planning on making similar investments in their infrastructure? They certainly need them as much as we did.

Not to say there were not good reasons for us following this strategy. But the argument that it would within a few years place us streets ahead of our SPL competitors financially and therefore, by extension, on the field of play, has proven to have no substance whatsoever.

[matty_f]

I was for the new stand, and love we have a place to train properly, yet there are times like now when i do question whether it was worthwhile, the eye was taken off the ball somewhat on what brings the fans to the new stand and ground we have these days.

And with the new expense we will have, its not the bright new summer we were all dreaming of though is it Matty, and will be stopping funds we all want spent on more important matters?

I think it's wrong to just link the stadium and training centre with the decline in the team. It ignores the biggest issue which is that we have gone from one unsuccessful manager to another and seen the money that was available for the team squandered.

The money that went on the East and to build East Mains wasn't taken from the manager's budgets, which have remained competitive as you yourself have acknowledged on numerous occasions, so it's a bit of a red herring to associate the decisions to invest in the stand and training centre with our form at the moment.

i still lay a significant portion of blame at Collins' door as to when the rot first started to set in. He spent relatively big on AOB and Maka, then a brought in quantity over quality throughout the squad, a tactic that left following managers with a rebuilding job on a significant scale when they took over.

This is why it is so important that Fenlon gets time to properly rebuild the club and to set down a foundation for the culture of the club to grow from and prosper.

[allezsauzee]

I'm beginning to get sick and tired of hearing people say what a well run club we are. Absolute guff. We are financially sound because of we've sold of a generation of good young players. We've then pi$$ed away that legacy on a stand we have no chance of filling, a training centre that seems to be yielding no obvious benefits beyond something for new signings to coo about on the club website and a series of poor management appointments that ensures a continuous turnover of the predecessors poor signings.

[matty_f]

Are Dundee Utd and Motherwell planning on making similar investments in their infrastructure? They certainly need them as much as we did.

Not to say there were not good reasons for us following this strategy. But the argument that it would within a few years place us streets ahead of our SPL competitors financially and therefore, by extension, on the field of play, has proven to have no substance whatsoever.

Who knows? They might, they might not. We were in a position to do it and had we had the right management in place we should have been able to capitalise.

Regardless, if I recall correctly that argument about being financially ahead of the other teams was more about our decision to reduce debt more than investing in training centres, but that's by the by.

[IWasThere2016]

I will give you the running cost of East Mains as a Factor but would Guess that the East probably doesnt cost much more to run than the old one :agree:

We took on debt for the new East - so I do not agree

[blackpoolhibs]

I think it's wrong to just link the stadium and training centre with the decline in the team. It ignores the biggest issue which is that we have gone from one unsuccessful manager to another and seen the money that was available for the team squandered.

The money that went on the East and to build East Mains wasn't taken from the manager's budgets, which have remained competitive as you yourself have acknowledged on numerous occasions, so it's a bit of a red herring to associate the decisions to invest in the stand and training centre with our form at the moment.
You might be correct, but it is linked now when we have such a poor team/squad and there's more coming out the budget to pay for them

i still lay a significant portion of blame at Collins' door as to when the rot first started to set in. He spent relatively big on AOB and Maka, then a brought in quantity over quality throughout the squad, a tactic that left following managers with a rebuilding job on a significant scale when they took over.

Again you could be right

This is why it is so important that Fenlon gets time to properly rebuild the club and to set down a foundation for the culture of the club to grow from and prosper.

Fenlon will get the time, although if Petrie starts to get it tighter and results fail to improve who knows what the executioner will do. :rolleyes:

[matty_f]

Fenlon will get the time, although if Petrie starts to get it tighter and results fail to improve who knows what the executioner will do. :rolleyes:

I think he'll stick it out. They have to, really. Re-starting this process just isn't an option. The board recognise that the constant churn of players has destroyed the culture at the club and they need stability on and off the pitch to address that.

[BEEJ]

Regardless, if I recall correctly that argument about being financially ahead of the other teams was more about our decision to reduce debt more than investing in training centres, but that's by the by.
Both aspects were part of the same argument, as I recall. The assumption being that other SPL sides would inevitably have to follow suit with similar investmenst sooner rather than later.


i still lay a significant portion of blame at Collins' door as to when the rot first started to set in. He spent relatively big on AOB and Maka, then a brought in quantity over quality throughout the squad, a tactic that left following managers with a rebuilding job on a significant scale when they took over.

This is why it is so important that Fenlon gets time to properly rebuild the club and to set down a foundation for the culture of the club to grow from and prosper.
Two points on the part highlighted, both of which appear to have been long forgotten in the mists of time.

1) JC spent about £0.5m on players of his choosing during the summer of 2007. (Around the same time the club had to make a payment of around £0.25m to secure belatedly the signing of Zemmama; but he was a Mowbray signing.)

Whilst JC was 'squandering' all this money on transfer fees, we sold four players for a sum that eventually totalled £9m of income for the club. You cannot accuse JC of being guilty of wasting vast amounts of the club's resources when you view it in the context of the transfer fees secured during his tenure.

2) During JC's time as Manager at ER he signed a grand total of 10 players (only three of which were for any transfer fee). During the same time the club moved on no fewer than 17 players.

So again, the 'quantity over quality' argument is not particularly strong when viewed in the light of those stats.


What he was guilty of was signing piss-poor players - full-stop. I think JC firmly believed in his own ability to take any ramshackle bunch of youngsters and journeymen and mould a team out of them. That was ultimately his downfall.

[IWasThere2016]

I'm beginning to get sick and tired of hearing people say what a well run club we are. Absolute guff. We are financially sound because of we've sold of a generation of good young players. We've then pi$$ed away that legacy on a stand we have no chance of filling, a training centre that seems to be yielding no obvious benefits beyond something for new signings to coo about on the club website and a series of poor management appointments that ensures a continuous turnover of the predecessors poor signings.

:agree: If it wasnae for the car park and John park we'd be no different from 'Well, Arabs etc with partially completed grounds. However that point aside, we are not financially sound.

The Balance Sheet is ok, but we do not have good cash balances nor a decent P&L account. So 1 out of 3 for me.

Looking beyond the numbers as they are to the future .. well, that's no rosy either and it will not be until it is right on the park for a sustained period. Heaven only knows when that will be ..

[matty_f]

Both aspects were part of the same argument, as I recall. The assumption being that other SPL sides would inevitably have to follow suit with similar investmenst sooner rather than later.


Two points on the part highlighted, both of which appear to have been long forgotten in the mists of time.

1) JC spent about £0.5m on players of his choosing during the summer of 2007. (Around the same time the club had to make a payment of around £0.25m to secure belatedly the signing of Zemmama; but he was a Mowbray signing.)

Whilst JC was 'squandering' all this money on transfer fees, we sold four players for a sum that eventually totalled £9m of income for the club. You cannot accuse JC of being guilty of wasting vast amounts of the club's resources when you view it in the context of the transfer fees secured during his tenure.

2) During JC's time as Manager at ER he signed a grand total of 10 players (only three of which were for any transfer fee). During the same time the club moved on no fewer than 17 players.

So again, the 'quantity over quality' argument is not particularly strong when viewed in the light of those stats.


What he was guilty of was signing piss-poor players - full-stop. I think JC firmly believed in his own ability to take any ramshackle bunch of youngsters and journeymen and mould a team out of them. That was ultimately his downfall.

We can spin the stats however we want, JC would have spent more than Mowbray did but probably less than Mixu, whichever way you look at I think we agree that he never spent a penny of it wisely. I tak e the point about the amount of money taken in on players but I'd counter that none of those players cost anything like that to bring to the club. Actually, none of them looked like multi-million pound players when they came through. It took Mowbray's management to really bring these players on, while Collins deserves credit for pushing the selling price up.

As for quantity over quality, I'm sure if Collins had used his budget on fewer, but better, players we wouldn't have ended up quite so deeply mired in the brown stuff. IMHO he went for quantity over quality.

[blackpoolhibs]

I think he'll stick it out. They have to, really. Re-starting this process just isn't an option. The board recognise that the constant churn of players has destroyed the culture at the club and they need stability on and off the pitch to address that.

Did we not say this last season, and the season before?

Its those who own and run the club who have also contributed to the the culture of the club in my opinion.

[cocopops1875]

We took on debt for the new East - so I do not agree

Running costs not Building costs :wink:

[MrSmith]

We took on debt for the new East - so I do not agree

I thought the money was 'ring fenced' for the East? Meaning money had been put aside from transfers to ofset the cost and that steel had come down to a ridiculously low price enabling the stand to be built??

I'm very glad the staduim is complete but I think we could have lived without East Mains. However, it is there and hopefully, long term, will come good.

I'm kinda lost for words with Hibs at the moment - I just really don't get it!? I am though, fed up of new managers, sacking the board, squad overhauls, they tossers across the road, and; the constant feeling of distress supporting Hibs! I think I'm tired of it all!

[BEEJ]

As for quantity over quality, I'm sure if Collins had used his budget on fewer, but better, players we wouldn't have ended up quite so deeply mired in the brown stuff. IMHO he went for quantity over quality.
Transfer activity in the summer of 2007.

Out (14)
Steven Whittaker
Stephen Glass
Kevin McDonald
Shelton Martis
Jay Shields
Ivan Sproule
Sam Morrow
Thomas Sowumni
Simon Brown
Jamie McLuskey
Jonathan Baillie
Chris Killen
Scott Brown
Michael Stewart

IN (9)
Mikael-Antoine Curier
Patrick Noubissie
Filipe Morais
Thierry Ghatteussi
Yves MaKalambay
Torben Joneleit
Alan O'Brien
Brian Kerr
Clayton Donaldson

I don't see how JC could have signed many fewer in that window in all honesty. He was already actively promoting youngsters into the squad at that stage to make up the numbers.

Certainly could have chosen his new recruits more wisely.

[matty_f]

Did we not say this last season, and the season before?

Its those who own and run the club who have also contributed to the the culture of the club in my opinion.

We did say it, they have contributed to it, and they know they have to put it right.

[blackpoolhibs]

We did say it, they have contributed to it, and they know they have to put it right.

But with no extra money or investment other than season ticket sales??????

[matty_f]

Transfer activity in the summer of 2007.

Out (17)
Steven Whittaker
Stephen Glass
Kevin McDonald
Shelton Martis
Jay Shields
Ivan Sproule
Sam Morrow
Thomas Sowumni
Simon Brown
Jamie McLuskey
Jonathan Baillie
Chris Killen
Scott Brown
Michael Stewart

IN (10)
Mikael-Antoine Curier
Patrick Noubissie
Filipe Morais
Thierry Ghatteussi
Yves MaKalambay
Torben Joneleit
Alan O'Brien
Brian Kerr
Clayton Donaldson

I don't see how JC could have signed many fewer in that window in all honesty. He was already actively promoting youngsters into the squad at that stage to make up the numbers.

Certainly could have chosen his new recruits more wisely.


Did he not bring Sowumni in? Also, we're looking at several players there that weren't first team regulars. He could have brought in better players to bring through the players that were already here. The youngsters would have had a better chance with better players around them.

[matty_f]

But with no extra money or investment other than season ticket sales??????

They are trying to bring in more cash, and crucially they have offset drops in income with cost savings to maintain a competitive budget.

The board are looking to increase revenue as much as possible. You might not believe it but it's not particularly easy to do.

[Cabbage East]

Imagine we had a McLeish or Mowbray in the dugout now and were doing the business with limited resources, I bet the board would take a gamble to try and win the league. Bear in mind that team under McLeish could arguably have won the league against a very strong old firm.

[Crazyhorse]

I don't get why not being second place this season is worse than not being third any other season. It's not more of a missed opportunity than any other season.

Finishing 2nd or 3rd will probably mean less humpings on the pitch this season - especially to the jambos - so that would be good. I have to confess I don't understand your point what do you think Hibs should be aiming at in terms of league position?

[BEEJ]

Did he not bring Sowumni in? Also, we're looking at several players there that weren't first team regulars. He could have brought in better players to bring through the players that were already here. The youngsters would have had a better chance with better players around them.
Sowumni was JC's only signing in the 2007 January window (just after the January window in fact). But during that January window he also lost three players:

Kevin Thomson
Oumar Konde
Amadou Konte (the one and only :greengrin)

(I've amended the figures in my original post as the players listed there relate to the summer 2007 window only.)

There is no doubt that JC could have 'brought in better players'. On that fact we agree wholeheartedly.

It's the arguments that somehow he squandered vast amounts of the club's cash that we could ill afford at the time and that he expanded the first team squad by hiring a cast of thousands that don't hold up to closer scrutiny.

[Kaiser1962]

A number of the players OUT were moved on for reasons other than their football performance.



Transfer activity in the summer of 2007.

Out (14)
Steven Whittaker
Stephen Glass
Kevin McDonald
Shelton Martis
Jay Shields
Ivan Sproule
Sam Morrow
Thomas Sowumni
Simon Brown
Jamie McLuskey
Jonathan Baillie
Chris Killen
Scott Brown
Michael Stewart

IN (9)
Mikael-Antoine Curier
Patrick Noubissie
Filipe Morais
Thierry Ghatteussi
Yves MaKalambay
Torben Joneleit
Alan O'Brien
Brian Kerr
Clayton Donaldson

I don't see how JC could have signed many fewer in that window in all honesty. He was already actively promoting youngsters into the squad at that stage to make up the numbers.

Certainly could have chosen his new recruits more wisely.

[matty_f]

Sowumni was JC's only signing in the 2007 January window (just after the January window in fact). But during that January window he also lost three players:

Kevin Thomson
Oumar Konde
Amadou Konte (the one and only :greengrin)

(I've amended the figures in my original post as the players listed there relate to the summer 2007 window only.)

There is no doubt that JC could have 'brought in better players'. On that fact we agree wholeheartedly.

It's the arguments that somehow he squandered vast amounts of the club's cash that we could ill afford at the time and that he expanded the first team squad by hiring a cast of thousands that don't hold up to closer scrutiny.

He squandered substantial amounts on AOB and Maka, regardless of what was taken in, due to the debt the club was in at that point the figures must still be considered substantial. Likening his spending to the income from player sales paints only a small part of the picture and without taking the debt into consideration the comparison is as worthless as Hong Kong Thierry.

As for a cast of thousands, nobody said that - you've taken the phrase 'quantity over quality' to an extreme, while I've already qualified the context in which it was used. If you've got ten quid to buy cups and you buy ten £1 cups that fall apart on the first use instead of two £5 cups that last, you've chosen quantity over quality. No thousands about it.

[IWasThere2016]

He squandered substantial amounts on AOB and Maka, regardless of what was taken in, due to the debt the club was in at that point the figures must still be considered substantial. Likening his spending to the income from player sales paints only a small part of the picture and without taking the debt into consideration the comparison is as worthless as Hong Kong Thierry.

As for a cast of thousands, nobody said that - you've taken the phrase 'quantity over quality' to an extreme, while I've already qualified the context in which it was used. If you've got ten quid to buy cups and you buy ten £1 cups that fall apart on the first use instead of two £5 cups that last, you've chosen quantity over quality. No thousands about it.

Its been a long time since there was anything quality about the Hibs. PETRIE!!! :grr:

[Kato]

10/10 for shiny buildings, 2/10 for product on the park, with no signs of any improvement.

As much as 2/10? I think you're being generous.

[Sumner]

... "second place" :faf:





.. second bottom if we're lucky :boo hoo:

[Onion]

Woo. Second place. Stunning achievement. Nothing like a runners up medal.
It's just a Europa Cup spot these days, is it not?
Second is the new third.

IMHO, realistic goals for a club of Hibs size are:

1. always in top 6 of SPL
2. regularly competing for top 4
3. Euro place every 3 or 4 years
4. Cup final every 3 or 4 years
5. Cup win every 5-10 years
6. 1-2 derby wins a year

As the SPL title (and Scottish Cup :rolleyes:) is out of reach, the derby match takes on disproportionate importance. And we all know how badly the last few managers have done in these games. IMHO this weekend's match could be a watershed for Fenlon. Win it, and we might have renewed belief that he is the man to take us forward. Lose it and he (and Petrie) will feel the pressure.

[blackpoolhibs]

I cant understand someone thinking 2nd place is hardly worth the effort?

Hibs when the huns are in the league, fighting for 3rd place adds 5000 people to the gate each week. Thats why its worth it.

[Beefster]

The board are looking to increase revenue as much as possible. You might not believe it but it's not particularly easy to do.

Rodders and Lindsay were both negligent in not taking advantage of more favourable conditions in the past to invest in increasing revenue long-term. It's much easier to attract new types of supporters/revenue when things are going well and there's a chance of entertainment. We're suffering (and will for a while yet) of the utter dearth of ambition and creativity from those running the club and their refusal to consider new initiatives when things were going smoothly.

The Board are reactive and have been for as long as Rodders has been around.

[Andy74]

Do we need to have the same conversation about past decision every single day?

Jeez, I got a bit of stick for daring to mention Hughes a few times after he was gone. :greengrin

Get over it, it's done, let's spend some energy on moving on from here.

There ain't half a few people who like to wallow in misery and ensure everyone does it with them.

Many don't even go to games - I'm not sure I'd spend hours talking about what went wrong with McDonalds burgers and how much I hate them now when I don't bother eating there.

[matty_f]

Rodders and Lindsay were both negligent in not taking advantage of more favourable conditions in the past to invest in increasing revenue long-term. It's much easier to attract new types of supporters/revenue when things are going well and there's a chance of entertainment. We're suffering (and will for a while yet) of the utter dearth of ambition and creativity from those running the club and their refusal to consider new initiatives when things were going smoothly.

The Board are reactive and have been for as long as Rodders has been around.

I'd disagree with that, and I'd counter all day long that the decision to lay down the foundations on which the club can grow and prosper showed far more ambition than chasing a quick win. We have had poor managerial appointments which it would seem have been the single biggest factor in our downturn. None of the manager's budgets were reduced due to making infrastructure improvements. The season we opened the East we were competing in Europe after a fourth place finish. Had Yogi made a better job of it, that stand would be brining in income that wouldn't have been possible with the old east.

And as critical as we all can be with hindsight, there were very good reasons to justify each managerial appointment at the time.

[Beefster]

I'd disagree with that, and I'd counter all day long that the decision to lay down the foundations on which the club can grow and prosper showed far more ambition than chasing a quick win. We have had poor managerial appointments which it would seem have been the single biggest factor in our downturn. None of the manager's budgets were reduced due to making infrastructure improvements. The season we opened the East we were competing in Europe after a fourth place finish. Had Yogi made a better job of it, that stand would be brining in income that wouldn't have been possible with the old east.

And as critical as we all can be with hindsight, there were very good reasons to justify each managerial appointment at the time.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about managerial appointments, spending money on player, quick wins or any of the other regular grumbles, I'm talking about the failure to even attempt to attract new supporters.

[matty_f]

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about managerial appointments, spending money on player, quick wins or any of the other regular grumbles, I'm talking about the failure to even attempt to attract new supporters.

Fair enough.

[BEEJ]

He squandered substantial amounts on AOB and Maka, regardless of what was taken in, due to the debt the club was in at that point the figures must still be considered substantial. Likening his spending to the income from player sales paints only a small part of the picture and without taking the debt into consideration the comparison is as worthless as Hong Kong Thierry.

As for a cast of thousands, nobody said that - you've taken the phrase 'quantity over quality' to an extreme, while I've already qualified the context in which it was used. If you've got ten quid to buy cups and you buy ten £1 cups that fall apart on the first use instead of two £5 cups that last, you've chosen quantity over quality. No thousands about it.
:greengrin

You're far from the first to come out with this which is why I have chosen to challenge it.

We can assume that JC was given leave by the Board to spend £0.5m on players that summer; he was given a budget. But there is absolutely no doubt that he could have spent that sum far more wisely.

On the numbers signed the 'quantity' aspect is just a red herring. It's just on the crucial 'quality' dimension where JC failed dismally.

Anyway, we're debating minor points here whilst we appear to agree vehemently on the core problem with JC's recruitment experiences at ER. So I'll leave it there as this dialogue is not entirely in keeping with the theme and purpose of the thread.

[Famous5forever]

It is really sad, but for some better appointments in the managerial role we should have been in a great position by now. Sadly we're not however that's not to say it'll always be like this.

Those things would still have been needed at some point at least now when we do get a manager who can make the most of them we won't have to watch as much money spent on the things we've already got.

If it came down to justifying the decisions to build East Mains and the East, the reasoning behind each still stands up. It wasn't those decisions that put us where we are now.

The problem is we have been on a downward spiral for the last 3 years finishing 2nd bottom has been our aim never mind 2nd top hopefully this season will be more productive if we can finish in the top 2 of the bottom six it will be a step in the right direction.