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View Full Version : Collins, Paatelainen, Hughes, Calderwood & Fenlon can't all be wrong



Diclonius
05-08-2012, 04:00 PM
Simple as that.

Five failed managers in a row is not a coincidence.

blaikie
05-08-2012, 04:04 PM
Clubs structure is wrong, things need to change from the very top! Today was always a write off with that squad. We need to see the board backing Fenlon more in the transfer market he's really up against it with this squad.

col02
05-08-2012, 04:04 PM
The three first managers were not failures in my book. One had us flying at the start of the season with 9 matches unbeaten until we went to Ibrox and also overseen an all too rare league cup win, one had us quite safely in the top six and the other qualified us for Europe and signed a couple players who yielded transfer fee's. Calderwoods tenure was a failure and Fenlon at the moment seems to be going the same way but I would take the so called failure the other three managers brought us any day of the week!

KeithTheHibby
05-08-2012, 04:05 PM
JC wasn't a failure, have a word.

ginger_rice
05-08-2012, 04:08 PM
JC wasn't a failure, have a word.

JC was failed by the club, if Petrie had backed him over the players we wouldn't be in the dire straights we are in now.

MWHIBBIES
05-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Collins and Mixu were failures? News to me, wouldn't mind top 6 every season and a league cup win right now.

J-C
05-08-2012, 04:09 PM
JC wasn't a failure, have a word.

Maybe not a failure but he jumped ship when things didn't go his way.

Bobby's Cinema
05-08-2012, 04:13 PM
It's been done to death, but Hughes signing policy is where the real serious decline began imo. Having 75% or whatever it was of the squads contracts expiring at the same time, where's the stability there. We've never recovered from that. 'Saying that', to use a Yogi-ism, we evidently need a total overhaul :devil:. Still.




BRING BACK THE MIXU DAYS :wink:

Elephant Stone
05-08-2012, 04:15 PM
Clubs structure is wrong, things need to change from the very top! Today was always a write off with that squad. We need to see the board backing Fenlon more in the transfer market he's really up against it with this squad.

We've probably made more signings than anyone else in the league, if we haven't then we can't be far from it. I'm more worried that PF thinks Stephens was worthy of a start and that playing hit and hope to a small striker would be OK today.

lucky
05-08-2012, 04:16 PM
No point in looking back. Pat needs time. This season is going to be hard

Bobby's Cinema
05-08-2012, 04:16 PM
Maybe not a failure but he jumped ship when things didn't go his way.
That's ridiculously unfair IMO.

KeithTheHibby
05-08-2012, 04:18 PM
Maybe not a failure but he jumped ship when things didn't go his way.

Do you mean when the club didn't back him despite taking in millions in transfer fees? Or when the players went running to the chairman because the big bad manager was too tough on them?

JC was right to quit, I respect him for that. He had the right idea, the club and players didn't.

AlbertK86
05-08-2012, 04:18 PM
Simple as that.

Five failed managers in a row is not a coincidence.

Beware you'll be in for a row from the godfathers of .net if you're slagging ROD

KeithTheHibby
05-08-2012, 04:21 PM
It's been done to death, but Hughes signing policy is where the real serious decline began imo. Having 75% or whatever it was of the squads contracts expiring at the same time, where's the stability there. We've never recovered from that. 'Saying that', to use a Yogi-ism, we evidently need a total overhaul :devil:. Still.




BRING BACK THE MIXU DAYS :wink:

Hughes made good signings or have you forgotten the likes of Stokes, Miller etc. The team he built finished 4th remember?

I don't think you can blame Hughes for the contract lengths, some were signed before he joined i.e Ian Murray, Riordan, Nish, Rankin etc.

Bobby's Cinema
05-08-2012, 04:25 PM
Hughes made good signings or have you forgotten the likes of Stokes, Miller etc. The team he built finished 4th remember?

I don't think you can blame Hughes for the contract lengths, some were signed before he joined i.e Ian Murray, Riordan, Nish, Rankin etc.
Signing policy is the wrong word. I'm not criticising his signings. But he should have seen that it would be an eventual problem, which it was.

Golden Bear
05-08-2012, 04:26 PM
Yes they can all be wrong.

The common thread is their failure to make the best use of the available financial resources - while so called lesser Clubs with a fraction of our budget have managed successfully in the transfer market.

Lang Toun Hibs
05-08-2012, 04:28 PM
JC was failed by the club, if Petrie had backed him over the players we wouldn't be in the dire straights we are in now.

Collins inherited a decent team and continued the momentum with an excellent cup win, can't (and wouldn't want to) take that away from him but he signed some dross too and in my opinion, let his ego get the better of him. I think he was backed fairly strongly within a sensible/ambitious budget.

O'brien, makalamby and Donaldson would have required a fair investment in terms of wages. He was backed to get these guys and others but can't remember many that could be classed as a success.

We can't simply keep sacking managers and overhauling the playing squad, blaming Petrie along the way. Much work to be done and if its to be a rough season ahead, we need to stick by our club.

Golden Bear
05-08-2012, 04:30 PM
Hughes made good signings or have you forgotten the likes of Stokes, Miller etc. The team he built finished 4th remember?

I don't think you can blame Hughes for the contract lengths, some were signed before he joined i.e Ian Murray, Riordan, Nish, Rankin etc.

John Rankin has proved himself time and time again with other Clubs yet he was castigated by many of "the experts" on here.

Northernhibee
05-08-2012, 04:32 PM
Yes they can all be wrong.

The common thread is their failure to make the best use of the available financial resources - while so called lesser Clubs with a fraction of our budget have managed successfully in the transfer market.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we have a thread where .netters come so,so close to understanding the problem but are facing the wrong way and picking their nose when it arrives.

There is a culture problem at the club stemming from a lack of leadership at board level.

hibees 7062
05-08-2012, 04:33 PM
Do you mean when the club didn't back him despite taking in millions in transfer fees? Or when the players went running to the chairman because the big bad manager was too tough on them?

JC was right to quit, I respect him for that. He had the right idea, the club and players didn't.

:agree::agree::agree:

Golden Bear
05-08-2012, 04:35 PM
No point in looking back. Pat needs time. This season is going to be hard

I accept that but it is extremely worrying even at this stage of the season when the team is apparently devoid of tactics and our only method of getting forward was to lump the ball up the park to a midget striker.

It makes you wonder, it really does.

ginger_rice
05-08-2012, 04:44 PM
Collins inherited a decent team and continued the momentum with an excellent cup win, can't (and wouldn't want to) take that away from him but he signed some dross too and in my opinion, let his ego get the better of him. I think he was backed fairly strongly within a sensible/ambitious budget.

O'brien, makalamby and Donaldson would have required a fair investment in terms of wages. He was backed to get these guys and others but can't remember many that could be classed as a success.

We can't simply keep sacking managers and overhauling the playing squad, blaming Petrie along the way. Much work to be done and if its to be a rough season ahead, we need to stick by our club.

But the one important thing that Petrie didn't back him in was when he tried to change the mind set of the players to try to turn them into something approaching athletes, and the players didn't like it!

The_Todd
05-08-2012, 04:48 PM
Why are people falling over themselves to stick the boot into JC? The Collins days were bliss compared to this.

essexhibee
05-08-2012, 04:54 PM
Collins was failed by the club. Mixu never lost a league derby IIRC during his time at hibs.

No confidence in Fenlon at all.

zlatan
05-08-2012, 05:00 PM
John Rankin has proved himself time and time again with other Clubs yet he was castigated by many of "the experts" on here.

That's because he was complete muck at Hibs.

Beefster
05-08-2012, 07:29 PM
Yes they can all be wrong.

The common thread is their failure to make the best use of the available financial resources - while so called lesser Clubs with a fraction of our budget have managed successfully in the transfer market.

A big part of the problem at Hibs is the total lack of leadership and implementation of the right culture from those in charge at the club. I've said this before but if we're relying on Lindsay to rectify any problems at Hibs, we're goosed.

DH1875
05-08-2012, 07:43 PM
Simple as that.

Five failed managers in a row is not a coincidence.

5 in a row :confused:. The first 3 weren't failures in my book, CC was a *** of the highest order and has put us back years. As for Fenlon, you all no my thoughts, shouldn't be any where near ER but he is so we've got to back him.

glenn6270
05-08-2012, 07:51 PM
as mr fenlon said we need to hit the ground running
hardly done that today
canny see us running very soon either
total and utter crap today

Cameron1875
05-08-2012, 07:54 PM
Why are people blaming Fenlon for this when its clearly not a coincidence that Hibs managers are not backed by the board. FFS we are getting outbid by teams with 1500-2000 season ticket holders yet Rod says we need 10,000 to compete?! What absolute bollox. It saddens me that people are still cutting the board some slack:confused:.

staunchhibby
05-08-2012, 07:54 PM
Another long hard slog in front of us again after todays performance

J-C
05-08-2012, 07:57 PM
Do you mean when the club didn't back him despite taking in millions in transfer fees? Or when the players went running to the chairman because the big bad manager was too tough on them?

JC was right to quit, I respect him for that. He had the right idea, the club and players didn't.

Yep that's what I mean, just didn't think I needed to type all that when everyone should know what I meant.

The Falcon
05-08-2012, 08:03 PM
Do you mean when the club didn't back him despite taking in millions in transfer fees? Or when the players went running to the chairman because the big bad manager was too tough on them?

JC was right to quit, I respect him for that. He had the right idea, the club and players didn't.


How many of those players did Collins sign and develop? How much did we make from Collins keen eye for a player? After the players went to the chairman the ringleader was effectively sacked weeks later.

JC quit because he was expecting the Scotland job.

Dont let this get in the way though.

Hibeesforever
05-08-2012, 08:16 PM
Maybe not a failure but he jumped ship when things didn't go his way.

Collins did exactly what Brian Clough did at Derby by leaving when the manager was undermined by a Chairman.

It was a disgraceful act by Rod Petrie to entertain the players without the knowledge of John Collins.
The virtues that John Collins was trying to introduce to the dressingroom were based on taking the club to benchmarking with the best European training methods. It is very sad that our Chariman and the players at the time did not buy in to the work ethic.

dp00
05-08-2012, 08:16 PM
Fenlon has the right idea and tbh all the players he has brought in have been decent.... Its the dross he was left with that is the issue

The Falcon
05-08-2012, 08:19 PM
Collins did exactly what Brian Clough did at Derby by leaving when the manager was undermined by a Chairman.

It was a disgraceful act by Rod Petrie to entertain the players without the knowledge of John Collins.
The virtues that John Collins was trying to introduce to the dressingroom were based on taking the club to benchmarking with the best European training methods. It is very sad that our Chariman and the players at the time did not buy in to the work ethic.

This is a wind up, right?

Hibeesforever
05-08-2012, 08:30 PM
This is a wind up, right?


Not a wind up, you look at how the typical Scottish footballer does or does not train / look after themselves. John Collins told Rod what was required to improve the training culture and performance levels but sadly the Chairman took no notice and appeared to side with the players.
No point going over old ground but JC has my respect for resigning when his methods were struck out by the Chairman.
Watch how he will be a successful manager in the future.
Young scottish players want to learn from players who have played at the highest level.
I am worried that at the moment we have the best training facilities but maybe not the best coaches or scouts in Scotland.

The Falcon
05-08-2012, 08:48 PM
Not a wind up, you look at how the typical Scottish footballer does or does not train / look after themselves. John Collins told Rod what was required to improve the training culture and performance levels but sadly the Chairman took no notice and appeared to side with the .

I am sorry but this is nonsense and has been done to death on here.

The players could have learned a lot about how to look after themselves if they had listened to Collins but some of them felt they didnt need to, wrongly IMO. The team that complained about Collins was the team that is celebrated on here as the one that won the league cup and was different in personnel from the one Collins left us with eight months later.

For the record Michael Stewart was sacked weeks later, and never kicked a ball for Hibs following the "mutiny".Some say this decision cost us the replay against Dunfermline but we will never know. Rob Jones issued a public apology and Collins himself said he had been fully supported by the chairman following the meeting. As said collins remained in post for longer following that incident than he had been in place prior to it. He was also being touted for the Scotland job.

Also John Collin's is no Brian Clough.

Northernhibee
05-08-2012, 08:52 PM
as mr fenlon said we need to hit the ground running
hardly done that today
canny see us running very soon either
total and utter crap today

glenn6270 - the .net poet laureate :greengrin

Ah never thought much of Yogi,
His man management was pretty crass
Do we even practise our throw-ins?
FFS, not close to Hibs class

Heedersnvolleys
05-08-2012, 09:10 PM
My comment apply to the last 2 but surely a half decent manager improves what he has got even before transfer windows, they did not. Yes I know what PF was left with but I would have been much more confident in his abilities if he even slightly improved us before the jan window. As the stats (i believe) prove his win % was worse.

KeithTheHibby
05-08-2012, 09:47 PM
How many of those players did Collins sign and develop? How much did we make from Collins keen eye for a player? After the players went to the chairman the ringleader was effectively sacked weeks later.

JC quit because he was expecting the Scotland job.

Dont let this get in the way though.


So he quit as he was expecting the Scotland job?! That's a new one on me.

Wouldn't it have been easier to stay in a job then let Scotland come after him.

JC already stated why he quit Hibs and he had a fair point.

Don't let the truth get in the way of a load of bollox though.

The Falcon
05-08-2012, 10:12 PM
So he quit as he was expecting the Scotland job?! That's a new one on me.

Wouldn't it have been easier to stay in a job then let Scotland come after him.

JC already stated why he quit Hibs and he had a fair point.

Don't let the truth get in the way of a load of bollox though.


He was in the running for the Scotland job in Nov-Dec2007 (2nd favourite with the bookies and job was still vacant when he quit) and declared his interest again in 2009. He would manage Scotland in a heartbeat, I dont think he would be the worst we'd had either. Also linked with Fulham at the time although Sanchez was still in post (just) and was immediate favourite when Sanchez quit a week after Collins quit Hibs. His stock was high at the time, though falling along with the fortunes of his Hibs team.

Not bollox.

Hiber-nation
05-08-2012, 10:25 PM
glenn6270 - the .net poet laureate :greengrin

Ah never thought much of Yogi,
His man management was pretty crass
Do we even practise our throw-ins?
FFS, not close to Hibs class

:greengrin

Ah wasnae too keen on Colin
His signings were really dodgy
But are the current lot are as bad as
Agogo, Palsson and Sodje

Famous5forever
05-08-2012, 10:47 PM
Simple as that.

Five failed managers in a row is not a coincidence.

The problem we have and must address is yes each manager that has been chosen by RP has been worse than the previous one, cheaper yes but Rod likes Cheap, but worse as we go forward we have to stop this misor attitude and think Big.
Petrie is not the man to Run our club each year each month each day that the old Squrooge is in charge we get worse.

The Falcon
05-08-2012, 10:54 PM
The problem we have and must address is yes each manager that has been chosen by RP has been worse than the previous one, cheaper yes but Rod likes Cheap, but worse as we go forward we have to stop this misor attitude and think Big.
Petrie is not the man to Run our club each year each month each day that the old Squrooge is in charge we get worse.


What were they each getting paid?

SteveHFC
05-08-2012, 11:00 PM
Bring Collins back :agree:

Famous5forever
05-08-2012, 11:04 PM
What were they each getting paid?

More than BB but less than DA Who we could not afford now but Rod knows best how can we continue to deteriorate every season we do not have the comfort of Dunfermline this season the teams we will be competing against in the lower 6 are better than Dunfy this season.

hibs supporter
05-08-2012, 11:08 PM
still think yogi should have got more time think he would have turned it around didn't like him as a manager but the players seemed to

Northernhibee
05-08-2012, 11:58 PM
:greengrin

Ah wasnae too keen on Colin
His signings were really dodgy
But are the current lot are as bad as
Agogo, Palsson and Sodje

We've had Latapy and Sauzee,
Turnbull, Deek and Nish,
Although having said that,
The last one was always falling over and couldnae trap a ball to save himself. Never a target man.

hfc rd
06-08-2012, 12:06 AM
Collins was failed by the club. Mixu never lost a league derby IIRC during his time at hibs.

No confidence in Fenlon at all.


Mixu lost the last league derby of the 2007/08 season (his first derby as manager) when Velicka scored from a corner. It went through maka's butter fingers.

Anyways back to the topic. I think it went wrong after the player revolt when some of the players went crying to Petrie because Collins was trying to get them fit. I think majority of them were wanting to use east mains as a leisure centre to just sit back and chill out.

silverhibee
06-08-2012, 02:11 AM
still think yogi should have got more time think he would have turned it around didn't like him as a manager but the players seemed to



:faf:

Yeah they loved him. :rolleyes:

The Falcon
06-08-2012, 06:48 AM
More than BB but less than DA Who we could not afford now but Rod knows best how can we continue to deteriorate every season we do not have the comfort of Dunfermline this season the teams we will be competing against in the lower 6 are better than Dunfy this season.

So Collins, Mixu, Yogi, CC and PF are/were all getting paid more than Billy Brown but less than their predeccessor and, significantly, all were paid less than Derek Adams who left because we could not afford him? That about right?

And you know what every one of these people was being paid by Hibs, but I suppose you cant say?

The Falcon
06-08-2012, 06:49 AM
:faf:

Yeah they loved him. :rolleyes:


With a passion :wink:

The Falcon
06-08-2012, 06:55 AM
Mixu lost the last league derby of the 2007/08 season (his first derby as manager) when Velicka scored from a corner. It went through maka's butter fingers.

Anyways back to the topic. I think it went wrong after the player revolt when some of the players went crying to Petrie because Collins was trying to get them fit. I think majority of them were wanting to use east mains as a leisure centre to just sit back and chill out.


Was that not our last successfull team? The one we all hanker for?

It seems they had enjoyed a spell of success prior to Collins arriving and for a short time after his arrival. The longer he was here the worse we got so I think it's too simplistic to abdicate Collins of any responsibility.

Steve-O
06-08-2012, 07:58 AM
Collins took over a good team. Approximately one year later, we were already on the slippery slope going backwards. He then left. Mixu was a decent steady manager but lets not romanticise his reign either - the entertainment on offer was poor and it was also the start of us having a totally non-existent midfield while he was there. Hughes of course started well but we all know what happened after that, and then idiot Caldo followed by Fenlon.

We need a new McLeish type - someone that genuinely commands respect without the players resenting him, and someone who has played and preferably managed at a high level. Easier said than done I know.

Andy74
06-08-2012, 08:37 AM
Perhaps its our own expectations and our tolerance for what people are trying to do that needs sorted out?

Hibs90
06-08-2012, 09:25 AM
Personally wouldn't say JC failed. But the decline started after the CIS fallout and the team and the club hasn't been the same since.

ahibby
06-08-2012, 09:35 AM
No point in looking back. Pat needs time. This season is going to be hard

Considering the thrashings we have been receiving, time is something we don't have. I'm sure that Pat was under the impression he had shored up the defence but he is blatantly wrong. A good defence starts with your forwards goes in to midfield and ends with your back four. If your forward line and midfield aint up to the task it's only a matter of time until your defence buckles. The defence on Saturday was clueless for us all to see. The manager, from Saturdays game and the cup final hammering is out of his depth in the SPL top six. If bottom six is good enough for us then PF will probably be good enough for us.

The other thing I need to say is that the Board hang on to the wrong managers too long and let the right managers go to soon.

Phil D. Rolls
06-08-2012, 09:43 AM
Simple as that.

Five failed managers in a row is not a coincidence.

Posts planned for next few weeks:

Fenlon Bucks the Trend
Fenlon Looks a Tramp
Fenlon Must Go
Petrie Must Go
I Must Go. :offski:

As depressing as the shortening days - I used to look forward to a new season.

Albion Hibs
06-08-2012, 09:44 AM
still think yogi should have got more time think he would have turned it around didn't like him as a manager but the players seemed to

I would agree with that, but i never think we should have asked mixu either. Yogi was haunted by the wins stat, that will very shortly be chasing pat i would think. I cant imagine his league record winsVgames is anything to be proud of.

R'Albin
06-08-2012, 09:49 AM
Collins took over a good team. Approximately one year later, we were already on the slippery slope going backwards. He then left. Mixu was a decent steady manager but lets not romanticise his reign either - the entertainment on offer was poor and it was also the start of us having a totally non-existent midfield while he was there. Hughes of course started well but we all know what happened after that, and then idiot Caldo followed by Fenlon.

We need a new McLeish type - someone that genuinely commands respect without the players resenting him, and someone who has played and preferably managed at a high level. Easier said than done I know.

:agree:

StevieC
06-08-2012, 09:52 AM
Why are people blaming Fenlon for this when its clearly not a coincidence that Hibs managers are not backed by the board.

In what way are they not backed? They are certainly backed financially and all have had the opportunity to make reasonable (on paper) signings.


FFS we are getting outbid by teams with 1500-2000 season ticket holders

When are we getting outbid??

heretoday
06-08-2012, 10:07 AM
Come on Mr Tache,
Give us some serious cash.
Never mind going into the black,
What we need is some guys at the back

And up front. :rolleyes:

21.05.2016
06-08-2012, 01:52 PM
The board were a disgrace, the way the treated Collins. The players threw their toys out the pram and went running to the big boss because big bad manager dared to try and make them do a bit of hard graft, pathetic! Too many trouble makers in that dressing room (i.e. that wee jambo rat Michael Stewart!) but Petrie should have had the balls to back the manger HE appointed and the methods of training he wanted to carry out, anyone who didn't like it could leave! I think too many players at this club are too pampered and need to be toughened up!

Prawn Sandwich
06-08-2012, 01:57 PM
Hibernian = Mediocrity

It starts at the top.

A route and branch overhaul of the organisation needs to happen immediately.

hibs supporter
06-08-2012, 01:58 PM
:faf:

Yeah they loved him. :rolleyes:
am i missing something thought they liked him always seemed to me he tried to be everybody's pal

Lucius Apuleius
06-08-2012, 02:12 PM
Failures? Strange way to look at it. I will only touch on Fenlon. A failure who took us to our first Scottish Cup final in 11 years in his first season? Too much emotion because of the result. The fact we got there was a bloody miracle.

Northernhibee
06-08-2012, 02:24 PM
Failures? Strange way to look at it. I will only touch on Fenlon. A failure who took us to our first Scottish Cup final in 11 years in his first season? Too much emotion because of the result. The fact we got there was a bloody miracle.

:top marks:agree: