Questions for all Hibs supporters, from an Englishman in peace

[English Writer]

Hello Hibs fans!

As the title (and my name) suggests, I'd really like to hear some of your views on Scottish football for an article I'm putting together for an independent football magazine (http://www.picklesmagazine.co.uk).

I'll be honest from the outset, the article will be based mostly around Rangers and their plight. But I thought, instead of writing the usual rubbish you read about them and their news - "what do fellow Scottish football fans think of them?"

"Why Hibs?" - you've been in the SPL for a while and as a fan of (sorry, this you may find cringe worthy) the film (and book) Trainspotting, the image of those Hibs flags on the bedroom walls when a baby crawls on the ceiling - stuck with me.

Anyway, if you guys want to write down your thoughts I'd like to get an understanding (as an "outsider") of what Scottish football as a whole, the SPL, Rangers as a club and the Old Firm dominance - means to you. Positives, criticisms, anything.

Be as honest as you like!

Thanks for your time and good luck for the season.

P.S I'm a Birmingham City supporter - so if you want to talk about ups and downs I can relate to that!

[Kato]

They cheated for about 15 years with extraneous payments to their players. They probably thought they'd get away with too as they've cheated/used their "charisma" to influence the authorities (snork) within Scottish football for many more years than that. Get's a bit tiresome knowing you have to beat the ref and their club to get anywhere worthwhile.

They are now out of the game but have another shot with a new club starting where they belong. Other than that those responsible for the cheating will hopefully face criminal charges at some point in the future.

That's it in a nutshell for me, wasted enough words on that trash recently.

[blackpoolhibs]

As someone who's writing from the outside of this, could you please when writing it, explain to those Rangers fans who will be reading it, that they are NOT being punished.

1, Could you point out that the £160k fine and 10 point deduction was for going into administration. (they did not pay)

2, Could you point out that they were not relegated from the SPL, their team went kapput and they were invited to join the SFL. Not a punishment, just a requirement of any NEW CLUB.

3, Could you point out they were not being punished when they were rejected entry into Division 1. No NEW CLUBS are invited into any league other than at the bottom tier.

4 Could you also point out if they want to keep their tarnished trophy's, and still be known as old Rangers, then they have to have the EBT's investigated properly, and it cant be swept under the carpet.

I personally think whats happened to them is right, they went bust so have to face the consequences. Go to any Rangers site, they will portray this whole shambles as them being punished beyond whats right and proper. When all along, they have ignored every FACT presented in their path.

They thought they were untouchable, and despite the top men is Scottish football trying their hardest to make this go away, justice was done.

[Hibercelona]

If you want to know what we all think about Rangers, just read a few random pages from the "Rangers In Administration" thread, you'll get the general idea of our thoughts and feelings towards them. :aok:

Those same thoughts and feelings also apply to the other arse cheek of Glasgow.

[English Writer]

As someone who's writing from the outside of this, could you please when writing it, explain to those Rangers fans who will be reading it, that they are NOT being punished.

1, Could you point out that the £160k fine and 10 point deduction was for going into administration. (they did not pay)

2, Could you point out that they were not relegated from the SPL, their team went kapput and they were invited to join the SFL. Not a punishment, just a requirement of any NEW CLUB.

3, Could you point out they were not being punished when they were rejected entry into Division 1. No NEW CLUBS are invited into any league other than at the bottom tier.

4 Could you also point out if they want to keep their tarnished trophy's, and still be known as old Rangers, then they have to have the EBT's investigated properly, and it cant be swept under the carpet.

I personally think whats happened to them is right, they went bust so have to face the consequences. Go to any Rangers site, they will portray this whole shambles as them being punished beyond whats right and proper. When all along, they have ignored every FACT presented in their path.

They thought they were untouchable, and despite the top men is Scottish football trying their hardest to make this go away, justice was done.

So "just-desserts" could be in the title of the article then... :aok: Thanks mate.

[VickMackie]

As someone who's writing from the outside of this, could you please when writing it, explain to those Rangers fans who will be reading it, that they are NOT being punished.

1, Could you point out that the £160k fine and 10 point deduction was for going into administration. (they did not pay)

2, Could you point out that they were not relegated from the SPL, their team went kapput and they were invited to join the SFL. Not a punishment, just a requirement of any NEW CLUB.

3, Could you point out they were not being punished when they were rejected entry into Division 1. No NEW CLUBS are invited into any league other than at the bottom tier.

4 Could you also point out if they want to keep their tarnished trophy's, and still be known as old Rangers, then they have to have the EBT's investigated properly, and it cant be swept under the carpet.

I personally think whats happened to them is right, they went bust so have to face the consequences. Go to any Rangers site, they will portray this whole shambles as them being punished beyond whats right and proper. When all along, they have ignored every FACT presented in their path.

They thought they were untouchable, and despite the top men is Scottish football trying their hardest to make this go away, justice was done.

:agree:

[blackpoolhibs]

So "just-desserts" could be in the title of the article then... :aok: Thanks mate.

:greengrin

[English Writer]

If you want to know what we all think about Rangers, just read a few random pages from the "Rangers In Administration" thread, you'll get the general idea of our thoughts and feelings towards them. :aok:

Those same thoughts and feelings also apply to the other arse cheek of Glasgow.

Ah yeah, will definitely have a browse through there then, cheers man. :aok:

Talking of "arse cheek" - what do you (or any other club's fans) refer to them as?

'slang welcome'

[DaveF]

Ah yeah, will definitely have a browse through there then, cheers man. :aok:

Talking of "arse cheek" - what do you (or any other club's fans) refer to them as?

'slang welcome'

Huns is the most common and probably most complimentary thing they are called.

Tax dodging, EBT paying, cheating barstewards has been used more regularly in recent times though :greengrin

[Sodje_18]

Ah yeah, will definitely have a browse through there then, cheers man. :aok:

Talking of "arse cheek" - what do you (or any other club's fans) refer to them as?

'slang welcome'
Huns, weegies, or any offensive swear word. Take your pick :aok:

[Hibercelona]

Ah yeah, will definitely have a browse through there then, cheers man. :aok:

Talking of "arse cheek" - what do you (or any other club's fans) refer to them as?

'slang welcome'

Huns.

Now newly referred to as "zombie huns". :wink:

[English Writer]

Cheers for everyone's replies so far.

Here's another one; would you prefer to have less money in Scottish football and Celtic & Rangers playing in England?

Or keep them in and have the apparent Sky TV money being filtered through the Scottish game... ?

[Saorsa]

Cheers for everyone's replies so far.

Here's another one; would you prefer to have less money in Scottish football and Celtic & Rangers playing in England?

Or keep them in and have the apparent Sky TV money being filtered through the Scottish game... ?Option 1 for me but I wouldnae wish them on your leagues either. A league of their own somewhere in Afghanistan would be good though.

[Emerald]

Option 1 for me but I wouldnae wish them on your leagues either. A league of their own somewhere in Afghanistan would be good though.

Option 2, with a bigger slice of the Sky TV money that we in Scotland pay our subscriptions towards.

[James70]

As someone who's writing from the outside of this, could you please when writing it, explain to those Rangers fans who will be reading it, that they are NOT being punished.

1, Could you point out that the £160k fine and 10 point deduction was for going into administration. (they did not pay)

2, Could you point out that they were not relegated from the SPL, their team went kapput and they were invited to join the SFL. Not a punishment, just a requirement of any NEW CLUB.

3, Could you point out they were not being punished when they were rejected entry into Division 1. No NEW CLUBS are invited into any league other than at the bottom tier.

4 Could you also point out if they want to keep their tarnished trophy's, and still be known as old Rangers, then they have to have the EBT's investigated properly, and it cant be swept under the carpet.



I personally think whats happened to them is right, they went bust so have to face the consequences. Go to any Rangers site, they will portray this whole shambles as them being punished beyond whats right and proper. When all along, they have ignored every FACT presented in their path.

They thought they were untouchable, and despite the top men is Scottish football trying their hardest to make this go away, justice was done.




This sums up the whole situation perfectly, saves wading through 660 pages of the "Rangers" thread!
They thought they could just bulldoze their way back as if nothing had ever changed.
Rangers are no more, they are as dead as Monty Python's parrot. If and when they get into the SPL it will be as a new club with no league titles to their credit other than possibly the lower division titles.

[Hibercelona]

Cheers for everyone's replies so far.

Here's another one; would you prefer to have less money in Scottish football and Celtic & Rangers playing in England?

Or keep them in and have the apparent Sky TV money being filtered through the Scottish game... ?

We were gutted when England wouldn't take them off our hands.

The OF like to constantly remind us about how much we "need" them for our game to survive, yet we know fine well that they would jump at any given chance they got.

Sky TV has done nothing good for our game in my opinion.

[Hamish]

Option 1 for me but I wouldnae wish them on your leagues either. A league of their own somewhere in Afghanistan would be good though.

:greengrin

Think Afghanistan has enough problems without a march every 12th of July with idiots waving Union Jacks.

[Cabbage East]

I'll write something the morn.

[db03]

As someone who's writing from the outside of this, could you please when writing it, explain to those Rangers fans who will be reading it, that they are NOT being punished.

1, Could you point out that the £160k fine and 10 point deduction was for going into administration. (they did not pay)

2, Could you point out that they were not relegated from the SPL, their team went kapput and they were invited to join the SFL. Not a punishment, just a requirement of any NEW CLUB.

3, Could you point out they were not being punished when they were rejected entry into Division 1. No NEW CLUBS are invited into any league other than at the bottom tier.

4 Could you also point out if they want to keep their tarnished trophy's, and still be known as old Rangers, then they have to have the EBT's investigated properly, and it cant be swept under the carpet.

I personally think whats happened to them is right, they went bust so have to face the consequences. Go to any Rangers site, they will portray this whole shambles as them being punished beyond whats right and proper. When all along, they have ignored every FACT presented in their path.

They thought they were untouchable, and despite the top men is Scottish football trying their hardest to make this go away, justice was done.

This sums it up for me. 100% spot on

[English Writer]

We were gutted when England wouldn't take them off our hands.

The OF like to constantly remind us about how much we "need" them for our game to survive, yet we know fine well that they would jump at any given chance they got.

Sky TV has done nothing good for our game in my opinion.

To be honest, as an outsider looking in - I find it difficult to see how Sky TV money from the OF games can be spread out amongst the other SPL teams...

I can sort of relate to you guys in that I'm bored/sick of the Man United/Chelsea and soon-to-be Man City dominance (in relation to the OF dominance)... I prefer the Championship as 75% of the teams in the league can get promoted or even win it. The EPL is stale and will implode eventually...

And I'd imagine the SPL wouldn't be far behind in something having to change for the better.

[Kato]

The EPL is stale and will implode eventually...

Spot on.


And I'd imagine the SPL wouldn't be far behind in something having to change for the better.

Way ahead.

[Hibercelona]

To be honest, as an outsider looking in - I find it difficult to see how Sky TV money from the OF games can be spread out amongst the other SPL teams...

I can sort of relate to you guys in that I'm bored/sick of the Man United/Chelsea and soon-to-be Man City dominance (in relation to the OF dominance)... I prefer the Championship as 75% of the teams in the league can get promoted or even win it. The EPL is stale and will implode eventually...

And I'd imagine the SPL wouldn't be far behind in something having to change for the better.

:agree:

Clubs have been feeding off the scraps from the dominant 2 for far too long in Scotland.

There's this fear that if we lose out on sky, our game will face oblivion. But I say to those who think this, how did our game survive before we had any deals with sky in the first place?

Sometimes you need to take a step backwards before you can take a couple of steps forward and I believe thats what we need to do.

The game is crying out for fresh ideas, but there needs to be a willingness to change the current system.

With Rangers currently powerless, this is a great opportunity to make long term positive changes to our game. We need to seize this opportunity as they won't be out of the picture forever.

[greenginger]

Ah yeah, will definitely have a browse through there then, cheers man. :aok:

Talking of "arse cheek" - what do you (or any other club's fans) refer to them as?

'slang welcome'

Arse cheeks = the old firm = bigot brothers.

[greenginger]

Cheers for everyone's replies so far.

Here's another one; would you prefer to have less money in Scottish football and Celtic & Rangers playing in England?

Or keep them in and have the apparent Sky TV money being filtered through the Scottish game... ?

Celtic and Rangers playing in England would be fine as long as they actually played in England. That means ground sharing with Carlise or building a new stadium for themseves south of the border.
If they want to play their home games in Glasgow, they play in a Scottish League. Them's the Rules ! :agree:

[English Writer]

Spot on.



Way ahead.

Okay, so Rangers are gone - that's a plus for the rest of the league.

But who will realistically challenge Celtic? No disrespect but I can only see Celtic winning the SPL by a comfortable margain (10 - 20+ points) untill or if, Rangers climb their way back. Surely with their gate receipts alone they would still have decent money coming in... I personally would like to see salary caps and transfer laws to stop clubs running away with the league in both Scotland and England.

[nonshinyfinish]

Okay, so Rangers are gone - that's a plus for the rest of the league.

But who will realistically challenge Celtic? No disrespect but I can only see Celtic winning the SPL by a comfortable margain (10 - 20+ points) untill or if, Rangers climb their way back. Surely with their gate receipts alone they would still have decent money coming in... I personally would like to see salary caps and transfer laws to stop clubs running away with the league in both Scotland and England.

The SPL's voting system was designed to give the Old Firm an effective veto on financial stuff (split of TV money, etc.) - an 11-1 majority is required to change anything of that nature. Now that The Artist Formerly Known As Rangers FC is out of the picture for a bit, that veto is no longer a problem, if the other 11 clubs really want to change things and have the bottle to do it. Big if.

[The Green Goblin]

Blackpool's post is spot on for me.

I would only add that the powers-that-be in scotland took the "scenic route" to reach what ought to have been a very straightforward solution and did everything they possibly could to delay or avoid it. Regan and Doncaster (who are still in their jobs) were especially and openly corrupt in their dealings and behaved appallingly. The media, used to eating the crumbs Rangers threw them for years, and addicted to the faint whiff of power from brown-nosing them, also did what they could to avoid the inevitable. That is to their everlasting shame. The BBC and Daily Record were particularly guilty of this, with the exception of journalists Jim Spence and Tom English.

What really changed in all of this for me, was that for the first time, the fans, via internet forums and social media held the power for the first time and used it to effectively "make sure" (I don't quite want to use the word "force") that their club chairmen did the right thing.

Meanwhile, "Rangers" (still being referred to as such by SKY amongst others, even though "Rangers" no longer exist) are already, somehow, buying up some of the best players from last season's SPL. They are doing this, having left a very large number of creditors with unpaid debts. One possible sign of hope is that HMRC are hovering in the background, yet to begin their more serious investigation into exactly what went on. Still a lot of secrets and lies to be revealed before this is all over. A lot of people will not be sleeping so well for a good long while yet...

The signs are that the media love-in with them will continue, and that their fascist-saluting, city-trashing, bigotted song-singing fans will still be the centre of attention. Personally, I wish they had just died, properly.

Good luck with the article. :wink:

[Hibercelona]

Blackpool's post is spot on for me.

I would only add that the powers-that-be in scotland took the "scenic route" to reach what ought to have been a very straightforward solution and did everything they possibly could to delay or avoid it. Regan and Doncaster (who are still in their jobs) were especially and openly corrupt in their dealings and behaved appallingly. The media, used to eating the crumbs Rangers threw them for years, and addicted to the faint whiff of power from brown-nosing them, also did what they could to avoid the inevitable. That is to their everlasting shame. The BBC and Daily Record were particularly guilty of this, with the exception of journalists Jim Spence and Tom English.

What really changed in all of this for me, was that for the first time, the fans, via internet forums and social media held the power for the first time and used it to effectively "make sure" (I don't quite want to use the word "force") that their club chairmen did the right thing.

Meanwhile, "Rangers" (still being referred to as such by SKY amongst others, even though "Rangers" no longer exist) are already, somehow, buying up some of the best players from last season's SPL. They are doing this, having left a very large number of creditors with unpaid debts. One possible sign of hope is that HMRC are hovering in the background, yet to begin their more serious investigation into exactly what went on. Still a lot of secrets and lies to be revealed before this is all over. A lot of people will not be sleeping so well for a good long while yet...

The signs are that the media love-in with them will continue, and that their fascist-saluting, city-trashing, bigotted song-singing fans will still be the centre of attention. Personally, I wish they had just died, properly.

Good luck with the article. :wink:

:top marks

[LancsHibs]

Okay, so Rangers are gone - that's a plus for the rest of the league.

But who will realistically challenge Celtic? No disrespect but I can only see Celtic winning the SPL by a comfortable margain (10 - 20+ points) untill or if, Rangers climb their way back. Surely with their gate receipts alone they would still have decent money coming in... I personally would like to see salary caps and transfer laws to stop clubs running away with the league in both Scotland and England.

And with all due respect who is going to challenge the Manchester clubs, can't see anybody else coming close really! Likewise you can guess within 1 or 2 clubs who's going to win the Spanish/German/Portugese/Dutch leagues etc.. The Scottish league has been no different to any other major European league in as much as its been dominated by a couple of bigger clubs! However, it is viewed by many English football fans as a pointless 2 horse race. When this argument is put to me I say fair enought you can't bet against 2 teams from a league of 12, however, in the English league of 20 how many have a realistic chance of winning it? 3 or 4?? Not much difference really!

I do agree with you about the salary caps but can't see it ever happening, and in answer to your original question re Rangers they had to start again in the 3rd anything else would have been unjust and corrupt.

Good luck with your article.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If the ugly sisters were in the EPL it would be hard for us to stop most kids in Scotland supporting them. Its bad enough now. I would rather keep them here .. but get them under control as much as possible.

Take it from us ... you dont want them p1ssing on your parade down south.

If you have one thing in mind when writing about Scottish Football make it just this:

There is more to it than just the Old Firm and all of the other clubs have passionate and loyal fans who dont have anything to sustain them like the glory hunters who support the OF do.

[English Writer]

Blackpool's post is spot on for me.

I would only add that the powers-that-be in scotland took the "scenic route" to reach what ought to have been a very straightforward solution and did everything they possibly could to delay or avoid it. Regan and Doncaster (who are still in their jobs) were especially and openly corrupt in their dealings and behaved appallingly. The media, used to eating the crumbs Rangers threw them for years, and addicted to the faint whiff of power from brown-nosing them, also did what they could to avoid the inevitable. That is to their everlasting shame. The BBC and Daily Record were particularly guilty of this, with the exception of journalists Jim Spence and Tom English.

What really changed in all of this for me, was that for the first time, the fans, via internet forums and social media held the power for the first time and used it to effectively "make sure" (I don't quite want to use the word "force") that their club chairmen did the right thing.

Meanwhile, "Rangers" (still being referred to as such by SKY amongst others, even though "Rangers" no longer exist) are already, somehow, buying up some of the best players from last season's SPL. They are doing this, having left a very large number of creditors with unpaid debts. One possible sign of hope is that HMRC are hovering in the background, yet to begin their more serious investigation into exactly what went on. Still a lot of secrets and lies to be revealed before this is all over. A lot of people will not be sleeping so well for a good long while yet...

The signs are that the media love-in with them will continue, and that their fascist-saluting, city-trashing, bigotted song-singing fans will still be the centre of attention. Personally, I wish they had just died, properly.

Good luck with the article. :wink:

Great response mate, cheers.

[English Writer]

And with all due respect who is going to challenge the Manchester clubs, can't see anybody else coming close really! Likewise you can guess within 1 or 2 clubs who's going to win the Spanish/German/Portugese/Dutch leagues etc.. The Scottish league has been no different to any other major European league in as much as its been dominated by a couple of bigger clubs! However, it is viewed by many English football fans as a pointless 2 horse race. When this argument is put to me I say fair enought you can't bet against 2 teams from a league of 12, however, in the English league of 20 how many have a realistic chance of winning it? 3 or 4?? Not much difference really!

I do agree with you about the salary caps but can't see it ever happening, and in answer to your original question re Rangers they had to start again in the 3rd anything else would have been unjust and corrupt.

Good luck with your article.

Yeah I totally agree with you man. I was just responding to Kato's point that the SPL is way ahead of the EPL, when in reality - both leagues will have predictable winners. Which is a shame, I'm sure we all agree. :aok:

[Fife-Hibee]

:top marks

Hey bud answer your phone !

[Hibercelona]

Hey bud answer your phone !

Sorry mate. Give us a bell! :wink:

[English Writer]

If you have one thing in mind when writing about Scottish Football make it just this:

There is more to it than just the Old Firm and all of the other clubs have passionate and loyal fans who dont have anything to sustain them like the glory hunters who support the OF do.

Yeah, and as LancsHibs put it "pointless 2 horse race" - I would say this notion, on the ground level at least, is the view of Scottish football and the SPL from south of the border.

I have to say I completely admire any fans that go to watch their teams week in, week out knowing that they are light years away from glory... I've felt this supporting my own team (until we were lucky enough to win the League Cup at Wembley a couple of seasons ago) and I'll always have time for true supporters.

I shall definitely make this clear in the article with reference to the loyalty shown by proper fans outside the OF.

[hibsmad]

There have already been a fee good posts that will no doubt help English Writer gain an accurate insight into how us Hibs fans feel in relation to the current situation.

The one thing I would like to add is please don't feel that the main reason non old firm fans can't stand Rangers or Celtic is due to their success. Of course it doesn't help that we have to constantly watch them lift trophies year after year but in my opinion the main reason that we all hate the old firm is due to the bigoted sectarian bile that is spouted from their fans on a weekly basis. There are Hibs fans who don't even take their kids to matches against them to avoid subjecting them to it.

I often hear on English based radio shows/phone ins, comments like "everyone hates Man U because they win all the time and it's the same in Scotland with Rangers and Celtic". It's not though, we can't stand them for more important reasons than them winning all the time.

[Waxy]

I hate the Rangers fan who threw a brick through our bus window.
And the Rangers fan who spat on me for no reason at ibrox.
I was under 16 at the time.
I'll never let any of my kids go to a match involving them.

[Pinkie]

Yeah, and as LancsHibs put it "pointless 2 horse race" - I would say this notion, on the ground level at least, is the view of Scottish football and the SPL from south of the border.

I have to say I completely admire any fans that go to watch their teams week in, week out knowing that they are light years away from glory... I've felt this supporting my own team (until we were lucky enough to win the League Cup at Wembley a couple of seasons ago) and I'll always have time for true supporters.

I shall definitely make this clear in the article with reference to the loyalty shown by proper fans outside the OF.

Hi English Writer - good luck with the article. My tuppenceworth...

I worked alongside a Sunderland fan a few years back and he used to get really annoyed by what he perceived to be a widespread ignorance of the history of English football both in Scotland and in England. He felt that many people seemed to have forgotten that English football existed before Sky Sports, and that people were conditioned by saturation TV coverage since the early 1990s to think that English football only consists of four significant clubs (save the odd plucky season for a Blackburn or, a bit further back, a Nottingham Forest). I can sympathise with his view and to be honest, I know very little about the history of English football. The guff I hear from Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson et al on a Saturday night is all about the here, the now, the money, the signings, the finances. It's inevitable that an ouutsider like me looking in is going to be drawn to the 'big four' (or is it five now?) and not worry too hard about the broader history of the game.

I would like to think that the 'pointless two horse race' you mention above is simply a mirror reflection of the same phenomenon (success breeds success breeds exposure breeds income etc) but sadly, I think that it is a bit more entrenched than that. I can forgive an external perception is that Scottish football consists of Celtic and Rangers and that the rest make up the numbers. But recent events have proven beyond any doubt that that is clearly also the entrenched view of many of the people who run Scottish football and most of the media that report on it (with a few notable exceptions). See the big thread about Rangers for specifics and Green Goblin's post above for a good summary.

I was born in 1975 so my early awareness of Scottish football was more about Aberdeen and Dundee United in the early 80s than it ever was about Celtic or Rangers (like many of my schoolmates, Aberdeen was actually my team of choice, but my brother straightened me out in 1988 and I saw the light in the shape of Mickey Weir - admins please don't bar me). Anyhoo, Rangers were crap then and only really emerged from that when Souness emerged, signed half the England team with David Murray's (borrowed) millions. Only really then did I begin to become aware of how biased Scottish football is towards the Old Firm. It's worth remembering that Celtic were gash in the early 90s but got their act together through Fergus McCann and have never really looked back since. But to someone outside Scottish football looking in, you would struggle to know any of this and the Scottish football media would certainly never volunteer the information.

This is becoming a bit of a ramble, so I'll spare you much more. I'd finish by saying that I understand that the Old Firm have always dominated football in Scotland, but never to the extent that they have done since the SPL was formed in 1998. Other things have happened in the last couple of decades to help them in this (Bosman, abolishing the 'three foreigners rule', increased but skewed TV revenues) but in Scotland our authorities have somehow managed to either engineer or sleepwalk into a situation where the Old Firm can scarcely be challenged. Until now. I just hope that our 'masters' have the bottle to see through some reforms to ensure that the past fourteen years can never be repeated, because the game in Scotland now barely has a pulse and it's because of extent of the Old Firm dominance. If our authorities now attempt to perpetuate that unsustainable model further, I think that many people will lose interest altogether and pick an Engish team instead.

So that's my tuppenceworth.:wink:

[Scott Allan Key]

Option 1 for me but I wouldnae wish them on your leagues either. A league of their own somewhere in Afghanistan would be good though.

Nice one. They might fit in well with the extremists there. Just as the Taliban have nothing to do with Islam the Old Firm have nothing to do with Christianity.

[Sodje_18]

Hi English Writer - good luck with the article. My tuppenceworth...

I worked alongside a Sunderland fan a few years back and he used to get really annoyed by what he perceived to be a widespread ignorance of the history of English football both in Scotland and in England. He felt that many people seemed to have forgotten that English football existed before Sky Sports, and that people were conditioned by saturation TV coverage since the early 1990s to think that English football only consists of four significant clubs (save the odd plucky season for a Blackburn or, a bit further back, a Nottingham Forest). I can sympathise with his view and to be honest, I know very little about the history of English football. The guff I hear from Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson et al on a Saturday night is all about the here, the now, the money, the signings, the finances. It's inevitable that an ouutsider like me looking in is going to be drawn to the 'big four' (or is it five now?) and not worry too hard about the broader history of the game.

I would like to think that the 'pointless two horse race' you mention above is simply a mirror reflection of the same phenomenon (success breeds success breeds exposure breeds income etc) but sadly, I think that it is a bit more entrenched than that. I can forgive an external perception is that Scottish football consists of Celtic and Rangers and that the rest make up the numbers. But recent events have proven beyond any doubt that that is clearly also the entrenched view of many of the people who run Scottish football and most of the media that report on it (with a few notable exceptions). See the big thread about Rangers for specifics and Green Goblin's post above for a good summary.

I was born in 1975 so my early awareness of Scottish football was more about Aberdeen and Dundee United in the early 80s than it ever was about Celtic or Rangers (like many of my schoolmates, Aberdeen was actually my team of choice, but my brother straightened me out in 1988 and I saw the light in the shape of Mickey Weir - admins please don't bar me). Anyhoo, Rangers were crap then and only really emerged from that when Souness emerged, signed half the England team with David Murray's (borrowed) millions. Only really then did I begin to become aware of how biased Scottish football is towards the Old Firm. It's worth remembering that Celtic were gash in the early 90s but got their act together through Fergus McCann and have never really looked back since. But to someone outside Scottish football looking in, you would struggle to know any of this and the Scottish football media would certainly never volunteer the information.

This is becoming a bit of a ramble, so I'll spare you much more. I'd finish by saying that I understand that the Old Firm have always dominated football in Scotland, but never to the extent that they have done since the SPL was formed in 1998. Other things have happened in the last couple of decades to help them in this (Bosman, abolishing the 'three foreigners rule', increased but skewed TV revenues) but in Scotland our authorities have somehow managed to either engineer or sleepwalk into a situation where the Old Firm can scarcely be challenged. Until now. I just hope that our 'masters' have the bottle to see through some reforms to ensure that the past fourteen years can never be repeated, because the game in Scotland now barely has a pulse and it's because of extent of the Old Firm dominance. If our authorities now attempt to perpetuate that unsustainable model further, I think that many people will lose interest altogether and pick an Engish team instead.

So that's my tuppenceworth.:wink:
:top marks

[Sodje_18]

English writer; any chance you can post this article on here when it's done?

Cheers.

[Sunny1875]

The Demise of Rangers Could and Should be the best thing to happen to the Scottish game for a long time. If the Authorities want to tackle the Bigotry that makes us despise both these teams then this is the only opportunity to do it. but it is a big IF. IF the clubs in Scotland want to improve the game for the better, This is the opportunity. The twins have been separated and voting could now take place to restructure the game in a sensible way in a way that might bring fans back.

As someone has said further up the post our game here was not always dominated by the Old Firm. There was a time in the 80's when either of the Bigot brothers were not the most feared in Scottish football, A time when the Scottish game reached its highest European ranking.

Before this in the late 60's and early 70's there was a great Celtic team who won 9 titles in a row bearing in mind that this was a league of 18 teams with 34 games per season all clubs meeting once home and once away and only two points for a win. Dominance by Celtic was almost complete between 65-66 and 73-74 incidentally the season before this dominance 64-65 Celtic had finished 8th and Rangers 5th all but one of the top 13 teams had scored 55 goals or more and 9th position Dundee Utd were only 14 points behind the champions scoring 59 goals in their 34 games. (1.735 per game for the team finishing 9th)

Jump now to the 90's with 3 points for a win to encourage attacking football. Strangely the average goals per game dropped the team now finishing 3rd Dundee utd as per my earlier example where in 96-97 15 points behind 2nd and 20 points behind the title winners and in a league of 10 with 36 games could only manage 46 goals all season. (1.277 for the team finishing 3rd ) Outside of the old firm, teams had become afraid to lose, not adventurous and attempting to win with any style or flair.

Fans of all clubs except the old firm have stopped going and i don't think its because their teams have no chance of winning the league, although a modicum of success does bring some fans out of the woodwork. My personal reason for no longer being a season ticket holder at Easter Rd is pure and simply down to the SKY TV contract, with games played on a Saturday at 12.30 or on a Sunday to suit TV, games should be on a Saturday 3pm K.O. then every two weeks supporters would know where they want to be, not trying to work out which games are moved for TV. Having to rearrange work schedules to make silly K.O. times, getting grief from spouses for disappearing on a Sunday, or simply wanting to spend Sunday with your Family instead of watching your team play someone for the 3rd or 4th time that season.
If the Clubs had the balls to turn around and tell SKY this is our product if you want it this is how it is, then probably they would see gates increase, with less moved k.o times and less live games the armchair fans might get off the sofa and back to the stadia.

So to sum things up Rangers have got what they deserved, it was the power of the fans through forums like this that ensured this, clubs received the fans messages loud and clear, if this situation had happened before the internet age i think many of the clubs would not have voted for integrity but would have voted to allow Rangers to stay. Hopefully with the 11-1 vote no longer giving the Twins sway over the rest a solution can now be tabled to really improve the game here in Scotland.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I think you have to step way back from the current “predicament” der hun find themselves in to really appreciate why we don’t particularly like them. I hesitate to use the word hate as it is not one I am comfortable with. To step back and look at the situation in its entirety entails in my opinion looking at Celtc (deliberate spelling by the way) first, but only in a simplistic way as it would take books to say it all. Hibs were a successful team with a huge following from Glasgow and every other city in Scotland back in the 1800s (Johhny and Doddie can confirm this). Along came Celtc who decided to follow the business ideas of Hibernian of creating a football team for a community and using monies earned in a charitable way. Unfortunately following our business model they also decided they would borrow our players and our colours. For the first few years, all was well, we would still go to Glesgae and have a large local and vocal support. Unfortunately this started dropping as more and more Irish immigrants settled in the west and started supporting Celtc instead of shooting along the precursor of the M8 to Embra. They have continued to steal our players since then getting all upset when we hold out for a decent return. My dislike for Celtc is actually greater than my dislike of der hun.
Now, der hun. For a football team that was founded before Celtc and had no original affiliations that I am aware of with Norn Iron. Did this change when Irish Catholics started coming in and supporting Celtc? Not a clue but what we then had was two football teams embroiled in sectarianism who lived to meet each other. The rest of us became irrelevant to them and the Scottish, and by extension world, press. Take for example the use of the word provincial to describe all clubs outwith der hun and Celtc. I do not believe for a minute that journalists are that stupid they do not know what the word actually means. Glasgow became Scotland’s biggest city with a much larger “working class” population than the others, ergo the bigot sisters became Scotland’s two biggest supported teams. By extension they obviously became richer and more able to rape the “smaller” clubs even more. The SFA was always based in Glasgow, again an anomaly not present in most other countries in the world, their national association and stadium being located in the capital. This, in my opinion, led to a Glasgow led SFA which had obvious leanings towards the Glasgow teams and two of them in particular. That has, as is indicated and supported by current events, continued to the present day.
As mentioned a few times in earlier posts there have been periods in Scottish football history where the OF were not dominant. There have been periods when I have seen der hun attendances down below the 10,000 mark when Celtc were dominating.
The best time for Scottish football, domestically and internationally was when we were lucky (or unlucky) enough to get a televised game every couple of months and virtually every game was on a Saturday at 3.00 pm. Hibs along with most of the senior clubs had a great support in these days. It has dwindled due to the wall to wall coverage of football from both within and outwith Scotland. That cannot be changed now, too many kids see themselves as City, United, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Hearts of Oak supporters to really care about Scottish football being on TV, or not. These kids, brought up in the satellite era are in my opinion lost to the Scottish game unless we do something drastic. This may indeed entail us telling SKY to GTF and having every game back at 3.00 pm. The biggest problems come down to salaries, and this is where I agree completely regarding your statement about the EPL. I do not see how it is sustainable. It must collapse at some time. Same with the SPL, most of the teams have, over a period of decades, been sucked into believing they need the TV money and they need der hun and Celtc to visit twice a year for them to survive. We don’t. I am not for one second saying it will be easy without them, it won’t, but we will survive and possibly, just possibly, may prosper because of it.
Every other day we get a thread on here saying football is too expensive. For Dad and the two brats to go on a regular basis, especially during the current financial climate, it probably is too expensive. But who is to blame for that? Yes, clubs can look at innovative ways to bring in money, however virtually every penny that goes into the club has to come from someone. That someone is the supporter so whether it is through gate admittance or other means, we are still paying.
I guess I have swerved away from the original intent of explaining why we have a dislike for der hun but to me it is all tied up. From the sycophantic, ingratiating, ass-licking dickheads in the SFA/SPL who have tried all they can to see them not punished for crimes, yes crimes, they have committed has been embarrassing in the extreme.
Realistically, what is going to happen? Not a clue, but it is not finished yet. Bottom line is, even though we don’t like it, Green has bought the rights to the Ranger’s name so they are entitled to use it as far as I understand the law (not a lot!!). The name will not go away. Will it bring a siege mentality to the Neanderthals? Possibly. I said many months ago that I would not be surprised if they were not playing in senior football next season. I still stick to that. Their arrogance at keeping a name but not being willing to take on the responsibilities that go with it tell you all you need to know about them and could still ultimately lead to their downfall. Bring it on. We will be a better society because of it. On the square, I am actually everything a Rangers supporter should be. A church going, God fearing Protestant who loves football with a passion. I am even a west coaster according to some . However, nothing on this earth could ever let me support such a vile institution.

The above is merely superficial and does not even scratch the surface of the problem.

Hope this helps 

Glory Glory.

[hibbybrian]

This seems to have been brushed under the carpet :rolleyes:

Walter Smith: Scottish football will die if Old Firm are denied move elsewhere

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/rangers/2009/10/16/walter-smith-scottish-football-will-die-if-old-firm-are-denied-move-elsewhere-86908-21751069/

[Sylar]

First and foremost, for the large number of Rangers fans out there who go to the game to watch their team play, without hatred or bigotry in their agenda, I feel truly sorry for them. My fiance's entire family (immediate and extended) are all ardent Rangers fans and around 75% of them are all ST holders at Ibrox (and will continue to be). Add to that the friends I know who are all very level headed Rangers fans who are suffering right now and it's hard to take the stance of reveling in their demise too much.

A lot of other clubs' fans will get the chance to experience this in future. Some have already experienced it in the past so know all too well how hard things are for Rangers just now - your Dundee's, Livingston's, Gretna's & Airdrie's of this world watched financial ruin impact on their enjoyment of following their local football club. With the potential loss of revenue from Rangers demise, this is going to be both a blessing and a curse. For those clubs who can cut their cloth accordingly and manage to come out of the other end, we'll see the opportunity for a phoenix Scottish Football to rise up which will be both competitive and financially prudent without the money cow of Sky Sports, ESPN or any other body who would try and govern the game for the cost of the soul. Football is traditionally for the working guy - going along to the game on a Saturday at 3pm to watch the game with your mates and perhaps go for a few drinks afterwards and discuss the post mortem. A return to this would be welcome by a vast majority of football fans in Scotland, many of whom remain in exile from regularly attending games on account of a) unsuitable rescheduling of matches to suit TV and overinflated prices relative to the quality of the product on the park. For those clubs who cannot or will not cut their cloth accordingly, they will start a slide into administration or possibly even liquidation. It would be interesting to see then how the SFL/SPL/SFA would handle this, as Rangers re-entering into the league with such ease should not have happened. Just ask Gretna or Airdrieonians about what should happen to a club when they properly go to the sword.

My more general opinion on Rangers the club and their stranglehold (jointly with Celtic) on the SPL is not really any different to the aftermentioned points. I despise their core of bigotry which represents a wider issue in Scottish society, particularly on the West coast where such issues extend well beyond the boundaries of Ibrox or Parkhead. Rangers have a very rich and interesting history as a club and it shouldn't be forgotten that this sectarian mantra which pollutes their club has not always been so. Once upon a time, the club's values were completely separate from religion and persecution. Nowadays, the two are inseparable and the supporters who relish in this nonsense continue to destroy what reputation and pride the club once had. They deserve their punishment, as a club - their directors have systematically sought to gain an advantage on the playing field for years and it is now coming home, that this was conducted in an unfair manner. However, in the current discussion, it is also my opinion that they do not deserve to have titles stripped from them as one form of punishment. Footballers on the whole aren't generally Mensa candidates. They rely on advice from agents and a core of people around about them and even if a large number of them were part of the EBT scheme, most wouldn't have known a thing about the legal ins and outs of it, particularly those players coming in from overseas. They were offered a salary to do a job and there's no way or reason these players should know if this is sustainable to the income of the club or wealth of the owner. These same players have to go out on the park, win games and ultimately win titles. The club should be punished accordingly, but it is an unfair leap to ask these players to remove "league/cup winner" etc from their personal record due to the dodgy dealings of a few shady businessmen.

[hibbymac]

This seems to have been brushed under the carpet :rolleyes:

Walter Smith: Scottish football will die if Old Firm are denied move elsewhere

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/rangers/2009/10/16/walter-smith-scottish-football-will-die-if-old-firm-are-denied-move-elsewhere-86908-21751069/

:agree:

Wonder what's changed in just over 2 years :confused: ... Every club in SPL would suffer if Gers were relegated, warns Walter Smith

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/04/26/rangers-in-crisis-every-club-in-spl-would-suffer-if-gers-were-relegated-warns-walter-smith-86908-23838533/

[Joe Baker II]

Might want to mention in your article that Hibs were leading lights in the set up of the SPL, and the skewed voting system, avoid presneting it as an OF-only led process.

And I think comments about Scottish league not being unique in domination by a small mumber of teams was true until recently, but in last 5-6 years this has been less the case when one looks at other leagues. Only once in last 16 years (until 12-13 season obviously!) has any other team than OF actually finished 2nd for example and not since 2006, I am struggling to think of any othe rleague where this is replicated.

And what I think is unique situation in Scotland where licence payers funded TV gives priority to funding and showing English football (our real enemy not the OF) over Scottish national game needs to be mentioned in article.

[Jones28]

I think Rangers have been punished in the best way possible and in all fairness there's not much more the SFA/SPL can do PROVIDING that EBTs are thoroughly investigated and nothing is hidden away.

As far as sky/tv money goes it has corrupted the game in Scotland. Completely and utterly sucked it dry. There's no competition, no realistic chance of non OF teams winning the league and the money all goes to the top 2 in any case. Some of it filters down but nowhere near enough to allow other teams to utilise it and turn it into a league winning team. Thats why I love the Championship. As the OP mentioned 75% of teams in the division have a realistic chance of winning/promotion.

I'm glad we've gotten rid of one half of the Ugly Sisters for a few seasons but all it means is a Celtic led monopoly.

[MacBean]

Hi English Writer - good luck with the article. My tuppenceworth...

I worked alongside a Sunderland fan a few years back and he used to get really annoyed by what he perceived to be a widespread ignorance of the history of English football both in Scotland and in England. He felt that many people seemed to have forgotten that English football existed before Sky Sports, and that people were conditioned by saturation TV coverage since the early 1990s to think that English football only consists of four significant clubs (save the odd plucky season for a Blackburn or, a bit further back, a Nottingham Forest). I can sympathise with his view and to be honest, I know very little about the history of English football. The guff I hear from Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson et al on a Saturday night is all about the here, the now, the money, the signings, the finances. It's inevitable that an ouutsider like me looking in is going to be drawn to the 'big four' (or is it five now?) and not worry too hard about the broader history of the game.

I would like to think that the 'pointless two horse race' you mention above is simply a mirror reflection of the same phenomenon (success breeds success breeds exposure breeds income etc) but sadly, I think that it is a bit more entrenched than that. I can forgive an external perception is that Scottish football consists of Celtic and Rangers and that the rest make up the numbers. But recent events have proven beyond any doubt that that is clearly also the entrenched view of many of the people who run Scottish football and most of the media that report on it (with a few notable exceptions). See the big thread about Rangers for specifics and Green Goblin's post above for a good summary.

I was born in 1975 so my early awareness of Scottish football was more about Aberdeen and Dundee United in the early 80s than it ever was about Celtic or Rangers (like many of my schoolmates, Aberdeen was actually my team of choice, but my brother straightened me out in 1988 and I saw the light in the shape of Mickey Weir - admins please don't bar me). Anyhoo, Rangers were crap then and only really emerged from that when Souness emerged, signed half the England team with David Murray's (borrowed) millions. Only really then did I begin to become aware of how biased Scottish football is towards the Old Firm. It's worth remembering that Celtic were gash in the early 90s but got their act together through Fergus McCann and have never really looked back since. But to someone outside Scottish football looking in, you would struggle to know any of this and the Scottish football media would certainly never volunteer the information.

This is becoming a bit of a ramble, so I'll spare you much more. I'd finish by saying that I understand that the Old Firm have always dominated football in Scotland, but never to the extent that they have done since the SPL was formed in 1998. Other things have happened in the last couple of decades to help them in this (Bosman, abolishing the 'three foreigners rule', increased but skewed TV revenues) but in Scotland our authorities have somehow managed to either engineer or sleepwalk into a situation where the Old Firm can scarcely be challenged. Until now. I just hope that our 'masters' have the bottle to see through some reforms to ensure that the past fourteen years can never be repeated, because the game in Scotland now barely has a pulse and it's because of extent of the Old Firm dominance. If our authorities now attempt to perpetuate that unsustainable model further, I think that many people will lose interest altogether and pick an Engish team instead.

So that's my tuppenceworth.:wink:

Absolutely spot on :top marks

[brog]

Okay, so Rangers are gone - that's a plus for the rest of the league.

But who will realistically challenge Celtic? No disrespect but I can only see Celtic winning the SPL by a comfortable margain (10 - 20+ points) untill or if, Rangers climb their way back. Surely with their gate receipts alone they would still have decent money coming in... I personally would like to see salary caps and transfer laws to stop clubs running away with the league in both Scotland and England.


This is one of the great ironies of the current situation, Celtc fans & the Weegie press ( sorry - you may need some translations! ) telling us the League is no longer competitive!! Guess what, for the other 40 teams it never was, now it's up to 41, big deal!! OF, welcome to our world!!
Here's some facts about the top league in Scotland.
1. Between 1905 & 1948 only Motherwell, in 1932 prevented an OF monopoly.
2. Hibs won the league in 1948 & again in the 2 seasons from 1950-52. Apart from OF, only Hibs & Aberdeen in 1983-85 have won the league in consecutive seasons in the last 120 years.
3. Between 1948 & 1965, 5 non OF teams won the league, Dundee, Killie, Aberdeen & the wee team from Edinburgh added to Hibs 3 wins. Those 17 years saw more non OF winners than in the other 100+ years back to 1890. That was almost 50% non OF winners but it was mostly down to the social conditions which existed post WW2. All grounds were full, Hibs had 65,000 in 1950 & 147,000 attended Rangers-Hibs cup semi in ( i think ) 1947 so teams were competing on a much more level playing field.

The OF have dominated, manipulated, taken advantage of & shamed Scottish football throughout their existence. Now one of them ( probably temporarily ) has gone, here's hoping the other lot join them!

[Sodje_18]

Straight from the horses mouth, seen a Rangers fan comment this on facebook and he's 100% correct. Hope this will be helpful in some way



Look, I'm a rangers fan but we've got to get a grip with all this 'everyone's against us' pish! Rangers are gone, this isn't rangers anymore and what people need to realise is that going into the 3rd division isnt punishment, this newco has been fast tracked into the SFL!! They weren't demoted as this team was never in the SPL!!!!! People go on about 'well never forget' etc well what did we do to help Celtic 20 years ago when the were hours away from COMPLETELY dying??? Nothing, what did we do to help Gretna?? Nothing!! And it was our chairman David murrays company that killed Airdrie as they struggled to pay for the stadium his company helped build and wouldn't accept a lower rate to the pound they offered!! Incidentally, the same ploy we tried with HMRC. No wonder other clubs feel hatred towards us as we've lived well beyond our means by cheating while they have had to struggle catching up with us. Also people say these clubs will die without us....well won't they just become a Newco like us and get rid of most of their debt?!!!!! Also Dundee, Motherwell and Livi only went into administration, not liquidation so to all these folk saying they weren't punished like us, that's because they didn't get liquidated!! We owe clubs all over europe money yet are still trying to sign SPL players and complain about players who took pay cuts walking away and being greedy. Something tells me we wouldn't be paying rapid Vienna any of the cash that we would've made off Naismith. Plus these guys took big pay cuts and how many people would do that at their own jobs??!!! I don't care they make a lot of money, they live to their means and still have bills to pay so are in the same boat as us all. Can we just not go with dignity and try work our way back up the leagues, trying to produce good young Scottish players and stop being so ****ing bitter towards teams who we have **** on for years??!! I'll prob get dogs abuse for this but I'm sick of stupid fans spouting false made up **** and not realising what has really happened!!

[lEXO]

First and foremost, for the large number of Rangers fans out there who go to the game to watch their team play, without hatred or bigotry in their agenda, I feel truly sorry for them. My fiance's entire family (immediate and extended) are all ardent Rangers fans and around 75% of them are all ST holders at Ibrox (and will continue to be). Add to that the friends I know who are all very level headed Rangers fans who are suffering right now and it's hard to take the stance of reveling in their demise too much.

A lot of other clubs' fans will get the chance to experience this in future. Some have already experienced it in the past so know all too well how hard things are for Rangers just now - your Dundee's, Livingston's, Gretna's & Airdrie's of this world watched financial ruin impact on their enjoyment of following their local football club. With the potential loss of revenue from Rangers demise, this is going to be both a blessing and a curse. For those clubs who can cut their cloth accordingly and manage to come out of the other end, we'll see the opportunity for a phoenix Scottish Football to rise up which will be both competitive and financially prudent without the money cow of Sky Sports, ESPN or any other body who would try and govern the game for the cost of the soul. Football is traditionally for the working guy - going along to the game on a Saturday at 3pm to watch the game with your mates and perhaps go for a few drinks afterwards and discuss the post mortem. A return to this would be welcome by a vast majority of football fans in Scotland, many of whom remain in exile from regularly attending games on account of a) unsuitable rescheduling of matches to suit TV and overinflated prices relative to the quality of the product on the park. For those clubs who cannot or will not cut their cloth accordingly, they will start a slide into administration or possibly even liquidation. It would be interesting to see then how the SFL/SPL/SFA would handle this, as Rangers re-entering into the league with such ease should not have happened. Just ask Gretna or Airdrieonians about what should happen to a club when they properly go to the sword.

My more general opinion on Rangers the club and their stranglehold (jointly with Celtic) on the SPL is not really any different to the aftermentioned points. I despise their core of bigotry which represents a wider issue in Scottish society, particularly on the West coast where such issues extend well beyond the boundaries of Ibrox or Parkhead. Rangers have a very rich and interesting history as a club and it shouldn't be forgotten that this sectarian mantra which pollutes their club has not always been so. Once upon a time, the club's values were completely separate from religion and persecution. Nowadays, the two are inseparable and the supporters who relish in this nonsense continue to destroy what reputation and pride the club once had. They deserve their punishment, as a club - their directors have systematically sought to gain an advantage on the playing field for years and it is now coming home, that this was conducted in an unfair manner. However, in the current discussion, it is also my opinion that they do not deserve to have titles stripped from them as one form of punishment. Footballers on the whole aren't generally Mensa candidates. They rely on advice from agents and a core of people around about them and even if a large number of them were part of the EBT scheme, most wouldn't have known a thing about the legal ins and outs of it, particularly those players coming in from overseas. They were offered a salary to do a job and there's no way or reason these players should know if this is sustainable to the income of the club or wealth of the owner. These same players have to go out on the park, win games and ultimately win titles. The club should be punished accordingly, but it is an unfair leap to ask these players to remove "league/cup winner" etc from their personal record due to the dodgy dealings of a few shady businessmen.

Outstanding post.

[superfurryhibby]

[
My more general opinion on Rangers the club and their stranglehold (jointly with Celtic) on the SPL is not really any different to the aftermentioned points. I despise their core of bigotry which represents a wider issue in Scottish society, particularly on the West coast where such issues extend well beyond the boundaries of Ibrox or Parkhead. Rangers have a very rich and interesting history as a club and it shouldn't be forgotten that this sectarian mantra which pollutes their club has not always been so. Once upon a time, the club's values were completely separate from religion and persecution. Nowadays, the two are inseparable and the supporters who relish in this nonsense continue to destroy what reputation and pride the club once had. They deserve their punishment, as a club - their directors have systematically sought to gain an advantage on the playing field for years and it is now coming home, that this was conducted in an unfair manner. However, in the current discussion, it is also my opinion that they do not deserve to have titles stripped from them as one form of punishment. Footballers on the whole aren't generally Mensa candidates. They rely on advice from agents and a core of people around about them and even if a large number of them were part of the EBT scheme, most wouldn't have known a thing about the legal ins and outs of it, particularly those players coming in from overseas. They were offered a salary to do a job and there's no way or reason these players should know if this is sustainable to the income of the club or wealth of the owner. These same players have to go out on the park, win games and ultimately win titles. The club should be punished accordingly, but it is an unfair leap to ask these players to remove "league/cup winner" etc from their personal record due to the dodgy dealings of a few shady businessmen.[/QUOTE]

Overall, an interesting post but I would beg to differ on this point. Rangers emerged as a dominant force in Scottish football at the time the professional game was in it's infancy. Prior to professionalism Queens Park had been the major force, with other clubs (including Hibs) offering some minor resistance. From the late 1880's onwards things changed.

The Bill Murray book "The Old Firm, Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland" makes it very clear that Rangers aligned themselves with anti catholicism and a marked sectarian policy from the very early years of the 20th century. Whilst they may have had an initial twenty or so years of just playing football, they abandoned any pretension to respectability pretty early on, cashing in on the rise of football as a spectator sport and making tremendous capital out of the rise of the newly formed Celtic. In my view they were an abomination and it was a measure of shame for Scottish sport and society that they were able to practise what amounted to footballing apartheid for as long as they did.

[English Writer]

There have already been a fee good posts that will no doubt help English Writer gain an accurate insight into how us Hibs fans feel in relation to the current situation.

The one thing I would like to add is please don't feel that the main reason non old firm fans can't stand Rangers or Celtic is due to their success. Of course it doesn't help that we have to constantly watch them lift trophies year after year but in my opinion the main reason that we all hate the old firm is due to the bigoted sectarian bile that is spouted from their fans on a weekly basis. There are Hibs fans who don't even take their kids to matches against them to avoid subjecting them to it.

I often hear on English based radio shows/phone ins, comments like "everyone hates Man U because they win all the time and it's the same in Scotland with Rangers and Celtic". It's not though, we can't stand them for more important reasons than them winning all the time.

An interesting point mate, cheers.

Okay, I'm no historian but Hibs were founded by Irish settlers... I know Celtic are massively into their Irish heritage and love to wave the Tricolour...

Q: are there any good, bad, or indifferent feelings towards Celtic and their 'pro-Irishness' from a Hibs perspective? As in "we were founded by Irish, you were founded by Irish - but we're not mad bigots like you"...?

[English Writer]

Hi English Writer - good luck with the article. My tuppenceworth...

I worked alongside a Sunderland fan a few years back and he used to get really annoyed by what he perceived to be a widespread ignorance of the history of English football both in Scotland and in England. He felt that many people seemed to have forgotten that English football existed before Sky Sports, and that people were conditioned by saturation TV coverage since the early 1990s to think that English football only consists of four significant clubs (save the odd plucky season for a Blackburn or, a bit further back, a Nottingham Forest). I can sympathise with his view and to be honest, I know very little about the history of English football. The guff I hear from Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson et al on a Saturday night is all about the here, the now, the money, the signings, the finances. It's inevitable that an ouutsider like me looking in is going to be drawn to the 'big four' (or is it five now?) and not worry too hard about the broader history of the game.

I would like to think that the 'pointless two horse race' you mention above is simply a mirror reflection of the same phenomenon (success breeds success breeds exposure breeds income etc) but sadly, I think that it is a bit more entrenched than that. I can forgive an external perception is that Scottish football consists of Celtic and Rangers and that the rest make up the numbers. But recent events have proven beyond any doubt that that is clearly also the entrenched view of many of the people who run Scottish football and most of the media that report on it (with a few notable exceptions). See the big thread about Rangers for specifics and Green Goblin's post above for a good summary.

I was born in 1975 so my early awareness of Scottish football was more about Aberdeen and Dundee United in the early 80s than it ever was about Celtic or Rangers (like many of my schoolmates, Aberdeen was actually my team of choice, but my brother straightened me out in 1988 and I saw the light in the shape of Mickey Weir - admins please don't bar me). Anyhoo, Rangers were crap then and only really emerged from that when Souness emerged, signed half the England team with David Murray's (borrowed) millions. Only really then did I begin to become aware of how biased Scottish football is towards the Old Firm. It's worth remembering that Celtic were gash in the early 90s but got their act together through Fergus McCann and have never really looked back since. But to someone outside Scottish football looking in, you would struggle to know any of this and the Scottish football media would certainly never volunteer the information.

This is becoming a bit of a ramble, so I'll spare you much more. I'd finish by saying that I understand that the Old Firm have always dominated football in Scotland, but never to the extent that they have done since the SPL was formed in 1998. Other things have happened in the last couple of decades to help them in this (Bosman, abolishing the 'three foreigners rule', increased but skewed TV revenues) but in Scotland our authorities have somehow managed to either engineer or sleepwalk into a situation where the Old Firm can scarcely be challenged. Until now. I just hope that our 'masters' have the bottle to see through some reforms to ensure that the past fourteen years can never be repeated, because the game in Scotland now barely has a pulse and it's because of extent of the Old Firm dominance. If our authorities now attempt to perpetuate that unsustainable model further, I think that many people will lose interest altogether and pick an Engish team instead.

So that's my tuppenceworth.:wink:

A fantastic tuppenceworth, Pinkie, thank you.

I have to say my knowledge of the history of Scottish football is this: "Rangers or Celtic have always won the league, bar a spell in the 80's when Aberdeen were alright"... Flipping blinkered I know but I'm about to venture on to Wikipedia to see their highs and lows, and other clubs' highs... Ta! :aok:

[English Writer]

English writer; any chance you can post this article on here when it's done?

Cheers.

I certainly will mate, no problem.

Although I'll "warn" you now it will not be a "looking at the facts" type article and simply detailing what has happened recently, as anyone could find that out by going on bbc.co.uk ... There has been so much written recently on the Rangers/SPL/Scottish football saga that I'll try and give it an original feel, basing it on opinions, views and (hopefully) humour!

[7Hero]

Bad enough that hibs have been financialy prudent for so long and suffered so many defeats and the recent worse result in our history due to being such a tightely run club...

But even with 50k season ticket holders, buying up the "wee diddy teams" best players and the lion share of decisions by referees, THEY still needed to CHEAT.

It wasn't enough to have the biggest cash cow, no they had to CHEAT aswell. They already had enough of an advantage but they needed more..

Absolutely shocking.

Disgraceful.

But not unexpected !! they have been robbing this country for too long and the state of the nations game is entirely down to the actions of the OLD SQUIRM.

What hope does a team like ours have with no investment (= no ambition) when the country's biggest team has to cheat and get even more of an unfair advantage behaving the way they did.

[Hibercelona]

Straight from the horses mouth, seen a Rangers fan comment this on facebook and he's 100% correct. Hope this will be helpful in some way

I feel sorry for the very rare hand full of Rangers fans like that.

I hope he isn't from Glasgow, or he'll get his windows tanned in and abuse shouted at him about being an undercover catholic.

[Sunny1875]

An interesting point mate, cheers.

Okay, I'm no historian but Hibs were founded by Irish settlers... I know Celtic are massively into their Irish heritage and love to wave the Tricolour...

Q: are there any good, bad, or indifferent feelings towards Celtic and their 'pro-Irishness' from a Hibs perspective? As in "we were founded by Irish, you were founded by Irish - but we're not mad bigots like you"...?


The Difference for most Hibees in my experience is that we are proud of our clubs Irish roots, but also proud of being a Scottish club from Leith/Edinburgh in a Scottish league. The Plastic Paddies flock to Celtic and have created an atmosphere of hatred of all things British around the fanbase there. from openly supporting terrorists/freedom fighters (delete as applicable) to protests against the poppy and remembrance of many who died in conflicts in the service of the British military. My opinion is that some of these conflicts should not have involved British troops, some of them should never have been fought and other's needed to be fought to preserve freedom and oppose nations that were expansionist and oppressive. I deplore how my club is at times bracketed with these ill informed/ uneducated bigots because we share a common heritage.

The common heritage we share is solely because with Hibernian becoming popular amongst the mainly immigrant Irish Catholic population of Edinburgh, some at the club saw the opportunity to have a similar club for the Irish immigrants in Glasgow with a wholesale plunder of Hibernian Strips, Players etc. Celtic was set up in the west. With Glasgow having a greater working class population Celtic grew larger, Rangers at some point after made the decision to become THE Protestant club in the west. it started out as rivalry but has helped perpetuate a cancer at the heart of Scottish society, a boil on both erse cheeks that requires to be surgically removed.
I have been asked when travelling abroad which of the two i support, my answer is always the same I follow Hibs, the following question is sometimes which of them do you prefer then ?. My answer to this is If you would like to know my religion just ask. We would not think of asking someone from England who supports say Sunderland, which of the big 4 they support, similarly I would not ask a Boavista fan who they prefer from Porto or Sporting. I don't like the perception of a divide in modern Scotland along this religious basis It is only a divide between two bigoted fanbases.

So in short we don't like them and don't want to be associated with the Plastic Paddies

[Lucius Apuleius]

Sunny actually touches on something. Have a wee look at the Hibs strip of 1876 and see what you think.:wink:

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Scottish_Football_League/Hibernian/hibernian.htm

[NAE NOOKIE]

An interesting point mate, cheers.

Okay, I'm no historian but Hibs were founded by Irish settlers... I know Celtic are massively into their Irish heritage and love to wave the Tricolour...

Q: are there any good, bad, or indifferent feelings towards Celtic and their 'pro-Irishness' from a Hibs perspective? As in "we were founded by Irish, you were founded by Irish - but we're not mad bigots like you"...?

It can be a can of worms this one mate.

Some Hibs fans feel that the Irishness of the club should be to the fore more than others do. Have a look at the 'Should I take a Tricolour to Hampden?' thread to see what I mean.

You will find that a large number of Celtic fans are more keen on supporting the Irish Republic football team than Scotland and that pretty well sums them up really. For the vast majority of Hibbies its Scotland all the way.

As far as religion goes ... In my 35 odd years of going to Easter Road my experience is that nobody gives a stuff what religion you are. Like most Hibbies I am aware of the clubs roots and proud of its fight against adversity in the beginning .... but we are a Scottish club who play in Scotland and just about every Hibby is proud that Hibs are a Scottish club.

Its true though that you are likely to find more anti royalist sentiment elements in our support than say at Tynecastle ... but IMO thats got more to do with the fact that our support is less 'establishment' than you will find on the other side of the city.

[hibsmad]

An interesting point mate, cheers.

Okay, I'm no historian but Hibs were founded by Irish settlers... I know Celtic are massively into their Irish heritage and love to wave the Tricolour...

Q: are there any good, bad, or indifferent feelings towards Celtic and their 'pro-Irishness' from a Hibs perspective? As in "we were founded by Irish, you were founded by Irish - but we're not mad bigots like you"...?

Sunny and Bovril's posts above do a good job of explaining the situation and how Hibs fans feel towards Celtic.

In a nutshell though, your own sentence pretty much sums things up.

[edinburghhibee]

Straight from the horses mouth, seen a Rangers fan comment this on facebook and he's 100% correct. Hope this will be helpful in some way

:applause:

he is not the only "Rangers" supporter saying this the two I know well, feel the same and are ashamed of what the others are saying. Trying to convince one to get a season ticket with me this year :aok:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Hello Hibs fans!

As the title (and my name) suggests, I'd really like to hear some of your views on Scottish football for an article I'm putting together for an independent football magazine (http://www.picklesmagazine.co.uk).

I'll be honest from the outset, the article will be based mostly around Rangers and their plight. But I thought, instead of writing the usual rubbish you read about them and their news - "what do fellow Scottish football fans think of them?"

"Why Hibs?" - you've been in the SPL for a while and as a fan of (sorry, this you may find cringe worthy) the film (and book) Trainspotting, the image of those Hibs flags on the bedroom walls when a baby crawls on the ceiling - stuck with me.

Anyway, if you guys want to write down your thoughts I'd like to get an understanding (as an "outsider") of what Scottish football as a whole, the SPL, Rangers as a club and the Old Firm dominance - means to you. Positives, criticisms, anything.

Be as honest as you like!

Thanks for your time and good luck for the season.

P.S I'm a Birmingham City supporter - so if you want to talk about ups and downs I can relate to that!

Mate - check out The Acid House and Marabou Stork Nightmares. There are good accounts of how Hibs fans feel about Rangers in them.

For me, what really stuck in my craw, is the way The Huns, continued to believe they were a world power in football for years after it was obvious that they had gone the same way as ship building, steel works, and coal mining. There is no place for teams of their size in a country the size of Scotland.

[English Writer]

For those of you interested... check out the finished article on page 19: http://www.picklesmagazine.co.uk/issue4.html

Thanks to everyone that gave their thoughts and opinions - it helped. :aok:

Good luck with the rest of the season (...topple those green and white *******s from Glasgow!)

[greenginger]

Cheers for everyone's replies so far.

Here's another one; would you prefer to have less money in Scottish football and Celtic & Rangers playing in England?

Or keep them in and have the apparent Sky TV money being filtered through the Scottish game... ?


Celtic and The Rangers can go and play in the English Leagues any time they want, as long as they do a ground share with Carlise F C or the like for their home games.
If they want to play their home games in Glasgow they play in a Scottish League or not at all. I dare say we could not stop them taking up another sport and playing in Glasgow; netball, rowing, hurling, would all be suitable I think.

[VickMackie]

Any idea how I actually get to see the article? I'm on an iPhone and not being funny but those stupid tiles mean I can't find the article but would like to read it!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Any idea how I actually get to see the article? I'm on an iPhone and not being funny but those stupid tiles mean I can't find the article but would like to read it!

You're not alone!!!

[Danderhall Hibs]

Click on the Balotelli image - it opens the magazine then go to page 19. I can't seem to copy and paste.