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View Full Version : Is the training centre starting to pay off?



Gatecrasher
23-07-2012, 12:21 PM
On a TV show about Scottish Football a few months back there was a Dutch guy Wotte? he was saying it would take about 5-8 years for clubs to feel the full effects of new training methods and facilities as young players make their way through the system. I cant remember how long exactly we have had the training centre for but these guys coming through just now will have been most if not all the way through the youth system at Hibs. Is this the HTC starting to pay off? A bit early to say but it sounds encouraging.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/football/hibs/hibs-turn-to-their-fountain-of-youth-1-2427604

bingo70
23-07-2012, 12:31 PM
On a TV show about Scottish Football a few months back there was a Dutch guy Wotte? he was saying it would take about 5-8 years for clubs to feel the full effects of new training methods and facilities as young players make their way through the system. I cant remember how long exactly we have had the training centre for but these guys coming through just now will have been most if not all the way through the youth system at Hibs. Is this the HTC starting to pay off? A bit early to say but it sounds encouraging.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/football/hibs/hibs-turn-to-their-fountain-of-youth-1-2427604

I hope so.

Certainly Caldwell looks like he's got the physique to make it, the other ones looked a bit lightweight when i saw the Under 19 derby last season, not sure if they've bulked up a bit from then but i think they'll need to in order to make an impact at SPL level.

(yes, i'm aware of the likes of Deeks that made it without bulking up but i'd say he's the exception rather than the rule)

Mark79
23-07-2012, 12:36 PM
Im pretty sure that had the rangers situation not come about then we might not have seen any of these guys in the first team. At least they will get a chance.

LancsHibs
23-07-2012, 12:52 PM
There are certainly positives from the game the other night, hopefully some of these players will get a chance and make an impression on the 1st team this year

Heedersnvolleys
23-07-2012, 12:59 PM
I hope so.

Certainly Caldwell looks like he's got the physique to make it, the other ones looked a bit lightweight when i saw the Under 19 derby last season, not sure if they've bulked up a bit from then but i think they'll need to in order to make an impact at SPL level.

(yes, i'm aware of the likes of Deeks that made it without bulking up but i'd say he's the exception rather than the rule)

I have to say this gets on my wick, in this day and age with the correct diet or legal supplements with some training, putting on bulk should be one of the easier things for these youngsters to do. At my local gym seen teenagers get bigger in the matter of months. Unless they have of course been told to keep the weight off. (was one of the youth players not given a bollocking for coming back a bit heavy apparently?). I also done a wee bit research last season was really surprise just going by clubs websites could not find other than Celtic to find any fitness/training advisor on there coaching lists. Do hibs?

Heedersnvolleys
23-07-2012, 01:03 PM
I hope so.

Certainly Caldwell looks like he's got the physique to make it, the other ones looked a bit lightweight when i saw the Under 19 derby last season, not sure if they've bulked up a bit from then but i think they'll need to in order to make an impact at SPL level.

(yes, i'm aware of the likes of Deeks that made it without bulking up but i'd say he's the exception rather than the rule)

As for Deeks would imagine it would be down to application, Gaz managed it no problem

Walter
23-07-2012, 01:12 PM
Just hope these lads get the chance in and around the squad, and have players around them to help them through games where there youthful enthusiasm can lift the team.:pfgwa:not worth

Elephant Stone
23-07-2012, 01:51 PM
I have to say this gets on my wick, in this day and age with the correct diet or legal supplements with some training, putting on bulk should be one of the easier things for these youngsters to do.

Wotherspoon put "bulk" on and has never been the same since. He looks heavy legged and slow. Bulk is vastly overrated.

pentlando
23-07-2012, 01:51 PM
It's a fine balance with players bulking up and still maintaining their athleticism, and I imagine each player is different. There's no point adding a few inches to your torso if it's going to take off some of your speed and agility.

Lucius Apuleius
23-07-2012, 01:53 PM
It's a fine balance with players bulking up and still maintaining their athleticism, and I imagine each player is different. There's no point adding a few inches to your torso if it's going to take off some of your speed and agility.

My wife said that exact thing to me (about 30 years ago right enough)

LeighLoyal
23-07-2012, 02:12 PM
Wotherspoon put "bulk" on and has never been the same since. He looks heavy legged and slow. Bulk is vastly overrated.



Strength rather than bulk is the word I'd use. Tends to add to a players presence on the ball, aids tackling power, overall pace and ability to take knocks. Also adds confidence. Wotherspoon, not sure the lad has it in him tbh. Good player, maybe not good enough though.

J-C
23-07-2012, 02:27 PM
I have to say this gets on my wick, in this day and age with the correct diet or legal supplements with some training, putting on bulk should be one of the easier things for these youngsters to do. At my local gym seen teenagers get bigger in the matter of months. Unless they have of course been told to keep the weight off. (was one of the youth players not given a bollocking for coming back a bit heavy apparently?). I also done a wee bit research last season was really surprise just going by clubs websites could not find other than Celtic to find any fitness/training advisor on there coaching lists. Do hibs?

There's a difference in bulk and strength, yes you gain strength as you add muscle mass but you can also gain strength by working the muscle in such a way as they don'y get huge but stronger. Take a bodybuilder and a weightlifter..............a bodybuilder will add muscle mass specifically to get big and ripped, exercising in a variety of ways...........a weightlifter will train specifically for strength and explosive power...........look at the difference in their physiques.

Heedersnvolleys
23-07-2012, 02:33 PM
It's a fine balance with players bulking up and still maintaining their athleticism, and I imagine each player is different. There's no point adding a few inches to your torso if it's going to take off some of your speed and agility.

Thats my point really do we have someone in the coaching staff who can tell them how to do it the right way? Coz it is definitely possible, as will be shown in numerous different sports in the coming weeks. The EPL is full of big athletic powerful guys who can still play a bit

sahib
23-07-2012, 02:38 PM
There's a difference in bulk and strength, yes you gain strength as you add muscle mass but you can also gain strength by working the muscle in such a way as they don'y get huge but stronger. Take a bodybuilder and a weightlifter..............a bodybuilder will add muscle mass specifically to get big and ripped, exercising in a variety of ways...........a weightlifter will train specifically for strength and explosive power...........look at the difference in their physiques.

When people talk about physique, I always think back to Marinello. He left Hibs slim, fast and elegant and returned some years later (to Hearts?) muscled up but ordinary. There may have been other issues but that always colours my opinion on the subject.

J-C
23-07-2012, 02:52 PM
When people talk about physique, I always think back to Marinello. He left Hibs slim, fast and elegant and returned some years later (to Hearts?) muscled up but ordinary. There may have been other issues but that always colours my opinion on the subject.


Good example, is rugby guys, the forwards are generally big lumps of men who have bags of power and strength, can run all day but no speed ( seldom anyway ), then you have the backs, usually smaller frames, enough muscle for power and strength, bags of stamina, added to that loads of sprinting speed. Although I'm noticing nowadays the backs are getting bigger all the time, due to better diets, training and supplements. Chris Paterson would be my perfect example of enough muscle but loads of strength, guy was 12st 12lb soaking wet, trained like a demon in the gym, loads of pace and stamina but had the power to tackle guys at 17-18st and bring them down.

bingo70
23-07-2012, 03:06 PM
When people talk about physique, I always think back to Marinello. He left Hibs slim, fast and elegant and returned some years later (to Hearts?) muscled up but ordinary. There may have been other issues but that always colours my opinion on the subject.

I think of Jamie Mcluskey, had bags of skill but barely had the strength to cross the ball into the box.

I just tend to think that young players that are skinny or appear to be lacking strength rarely make it as they get bullied by bigger, stronger and faster opponents, even if they do have more skill.

There's always going to be examples of players being skinny and making it as they're deceptively strong or have a lot more ability than most so they're able to compensate for it but i think in general if there's a player with a boys physique playing in a game against experienced and more physical pro's they'll struggle to make it.

Always annoys me when players leave hibs and then bulk up either down south or at the old firm, Scott Brown and Thomson were examples of this and i just don't understand it, similarly whenever we play against premiership opponents in pre-season they always seem to look bigger and more athletic, i can understand why they would be better but i don't understand why they would be fitter?

Beefster
23-07-2012, 03:10 PM
I thought that it was made clear when the Training Centre opened that it specifically wasn't a youth academy so there would be no benefit/difference in that respect?

greenlex
23-07-2012, 03:20 PM
I thought that it was made clear when the Training Centre opened that it specifically wasn't a youth academy so there would be no benefit/difference in that respect?
It may not have an academy tag but if our youngsters are not benefitting from the facilities and meals made for them then it's a massive fail for me. The youths must benefit as much if not more than seasoned pros whether it has an academy tag or not.

neilmartinrocks
23-07-2012, 03:35 PM
There's a difference in bulk and strength, yes you gain strength as you add muscle mass but you can also gain strength by working the muscle in such a way as they don'y get huge but stronger. Take a bodybuilder and a weightlifter..............a bodybuilder will add muscle mass specifically to get big and ripped, exercising in a variety of ways...........a weightlifter will train specifically for strength and explosive power...........look at the difference in their physiques.

I totaly agree with what you say but had i to laugh as i scrolled down and seen Best holding the scarf up.:greengrin

Heedersnvolleys
23-07-2012, 03:37 PM
Good example, is rugby guys, the forwards are generally big lumps of men who have bags of power and strength, can run all day but no speed ( seldom anyway ), then you have the backs, usually smaller frames, enough muscle for power and strength, bags of stamina, added to that loads of sprinting speed. Although I'm noticing nowadays the backs are getting bigger all the time, due to better diets, training and supplements. Chris Paterson would be my perfect example of enough muscle but loads of strength, guy was 12st 12lb soaking wet, trained like a demon in the gym, loads of pace and stamina but had the power to tackle guys at 17-18st and bring them down.

Rugby is a good example for my point also as even smaller pro rugby clubs with lesser resources than most SPL clubs have dedicated fitness/dietary person on there staff. I have no doubt our guys are fit but are they as fit as they can be or even the opposition? Let's face it in the SPL an organised and very fit side would go along way.
i think that was my main hope with EM was that we could train in all conditions we would look one of the most fittest teams about, did not look that way much last season.

Stevo1875
23-07-2012, 03:44 PM
i think the key points have been missed. so many changes in management with different ideas in what they want to develop must have had a significant effect on youth. also, a significant lack of positive and experienced professional role models for the young players at the club when they are learning their trade in the youth ranks and when they are trying to make the breakthrough doesn't help. look at the influence mcpake had on hanlon, who had been the most experienced player in the back 4 for some time. the lack of progression for players from u19 league to first team, having no reserve league where players can learn from decent pro's not getting a first team start also has to change. yeah, facilities are all good but we need a lot more to experience the benefits from them.

GreenCastle
23-07-2012, 04:00 PM
How much is cost to run per year - how much talent have we sold from having it = is it worth the cost ?

The discussion around Europe about different training Academies is often talked about - Is all the money / time / resources you put into an Academy or in Hibs sense a training centre ( you need to qualify for UEFA to give you an official Academy status) worth it ?

Yes if you win championships bring = revenue or sell a player but if not then it can be huge outlay.

J-C
23-07-2012, 06:31 PM
Rugby is a good example for my point also as even smaller pro rugby clubs with lesser resources than most SPL clubs have dedicated fitness/dietary person on there staff. I have no doubt our guys are fit but are they as fit as they can be or even the opposition? Let's face it in the SPL an organised and very fit side would go along way.
i think that was my main hope with EM was that we could train in all conditions we would look one of the most fittest teams about, did not look that way much last season.

I remember PF stating when he arrived at how unfit most of the players were, also begs the question, what the hell are they actually doing down there, lets hope he can make the difference and actually have a strong fit squad this season.

blackpoolhibs
23-07-2012, 08:26 PM
I remember PF stating when he arrived at how unfit most of the players were, also begs the question, what the hell are they actually doing down there, lets hope he can make the difference and actually have a strong fit squad this season.

I think he was getting his excuses in early, i couldn't name one player in last seasons team except O'Connor who i'd say was unfit. He should have said when he arrived, he couldn't believe just how sheite the players were, but i suppose thats not really on.

All poor sides look unfit, its because they dont see much of the ball.

Hibby Bairn
24-07-2012, 07:17 AM
Strength rather than bulk is the word I'd use. Tends to add to a players presence on the ball, aids tackling power, overall pace and ability to take knocks. Also adds confidence. Wotherspoon, not sure the lad has it in him tbh. Good player, maybe not good enough though.

He certainly looked as if he 'had it in him' when he first started playing for the first team. Attacking down the wing, step overs at pace, decent crosses, good shots etc.

Phil MaGlass
24-07-2012, 08:48 AM
I remember PF stating when he arrived at how unfit most of the players were, also begs the question, what the hell are they actually doing down there, lets hope he can make the difference and actually have a strong fit squad this season.

Thing for me is, he noticed they were not fit enough has he done anything about it, he has seen we dont have a strong enough midfield has he done anything about it?
I have nothing against PF, but, I really think we should have went with an experienced manager who knows and demands how they should be training, eating and playing, at the moment I dont or cant see that with PF. Mind you, what do I know.

May I also add, why dont we invite MR Wotte to ER have a look around and maybe give his ideas on how we can move on and better the academy, after all the Dutch are decades ahead of us when it comes to fitba.

Heedersnvolleys
24-07-2012, 12:11 PM
Very interesting read!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18887653

Brightside
24-07-2012, 12:26 PM
The answer is not bulk. Its skill and fitness. You dont need bulk to be good, bulk is just used to mask a lack of talent. Its the problem with most if the players produced in the last 10 years in this country. Develop skill. Work hard on fitness, diet and the correct mental approach to sport.

Craig_in_Prague
25-07-2012, 07:54 AM
The answer is not bulk. Its skill and fitness. You dont need bulk to be good, bulk is just used to mask a lack of talent. Its the problem with most if the players produced in the last 10 years in this country. Develop skill. Work hard on fitness, diet and the correct mental approach to sport.

Well said.

Football in the modern day is about speed, movement and technical ability.
You don't need to be bulky to be a good tackler or have strength on the ball.

The problem in the UK is probably our coaches mindset at very young age groups, is still as it was 30 years ago.

We are so bad now that I cannot see us qualifying for national finals ever again! It will take a very long time before we see fitter, pacy players with strong technical ability to be able to compete.

Heedersnvolleys
25-07-2012, 08:21 AM
The answer is not bulk. Its skill and fitness. You dont need bulk to be good, bulk is just used to mask a lack of talent. Its the problem with most if the players produced in the last 10 years in this country. Develop skill. Work hard on fitness, diet and the correct mental approach to sport.

I think we are getting mixed up with talent and skill. IMO you are born with talent and no matter how much training or coaching you will never improve that on your talent, yes as you say we can develop on skill. However when player has short comings in these area's there is nothing wrong with them making up for that by trying to improve physically. Let's phase it they are professionals they should be improving on both physically, personal skill and as a team. I think what I am getting at
physical fitness, endurance & strength should be the minimum requirement of the players