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Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 11:52 AM
While watching the Spanish out class the Irish the other night, I was wondering why we can't teach our kids to play the game like this?

Surely our football has hit rock bottom and can't get any worse. Now would be the time to start from scratch.

Surely all the clubs in Scotland should be sending their coaches to Spain to learn the tricks of their trade.

I'm sick of watching ***** Scottish football.

Why can't our coaches and managers employ the tactics of the Spanish and pass, pass,pass the other team to death?

Could this really happen in Scotland? Or do we think that the Spanish are some kind of Special race that only they can play this way?

My belief is that we can play this way but it would take all the clubs managers to get on board, what the hell have we got to lose?

Let's change our culture.

Renfrew_Hibby
17-06-2012, 12:04 PM
I actually think that styles of football are a reflection of those countries and peoples culture. If you think of the German or Scottish, the Latin American or the African steriotypes then you can see them reflected in each others style and approach to the game.
To play like the Spannish will take something deeper than coaching from an early age, but it would improve our basic standards but what you see when watching Spain its more than football thats being expressed.

ScottB
17-06-2012, 12:14 PM
Not as long as the vital kid stage in Scotland is dominated by the 'win at all costs, pick the big kids and humph it up the park' mentality.

The Spanish have UEFA 5 Star rated coaches from the lowest level of their game up, kids grow up in the system, focused on skills and the like.

What to implement is patently obvious, doubt there's any desire among the many vested interests in our game to step aside though. Can only hope that this Dutch guy can overcome the Leveins and introduce a system for the future.


It is definitely possible however, look at the work Germany has done over the last 12 years.

Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 12:16 PM
I actually think that styles of football are a reflection of those countries and peoples culture. If you think of the German or Scottish, the Latin American or the African steriotypes then you can see them reflected in each others style and approach to the game.
To play like the Spannish will take something deeper than coaching from an early age, but it would improve our basic standards but what you see when watching Spain its more than football thats being expressed.

Yup I agree with that. Gordon Strachan touched on it the other night, saying that the Spanish are so much more laid back than what we are in everything they do.

For example they take Siesta at the hottest part of the day and just shut up shop.

When they go for a meal they take their time, sometimes taking a couple of hours.

I'm, not suggesting we do copy them in every way but surely when it comes to football they have it sussed.

We must at least try and emulate how they play the game.

I'm not saying we will be as successful as them but if we can play half as good as them then we must be onto a winner.

Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 12:19 PM
Not as long as the vital kid stage in Scotland is dominated by the 'win at all costs, pick the big kids and humph it up the park' mentality.

The Spanish have UEFA 5 Star rated coaches from the lowest level of their game up, kids grow up in the system, focused on skills and the like.

What to implement is patently obvious, doubt there's any desire among the many vested interests in our game to step aside though. Can only hope that this Dutch guy can overcome the Leveins and introduce a system for the future.


It is definitely possible however, look at the work Germany has done over the last 12 years.


You have made quite a few good points.

Some of those things you mention like picking the big kids and win at all cost is something I think most of us have grown up with. My only hope is that there are some coaches out there who have their own ideas, that don't have a vested interest apart from bringing through the next Scottish Messi.

Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 12:30 PM
As Hibs supporters should we be calling for our managers to play a passing game or are we quite happy to watch dross as long as it's winning dross?

Example being Spurs, most of their supporters insist on the right manager coming in who will keep the players playing the Spurs way.

Guys like Davie Moyes have been quoted but from what I've heard none of the Spurs fans want him anywhere near WHL.

I think we as Hibees should request that any manager who comes to ER should at least try and play a passing game. Just my opinion.:flag:

Matty_Jack04
17-06-2012, 12:33 PM
The work done at barcelona is what's made the Spanish national team so pleasing on the eye and successful IMO, there's a spine that play and train together all the time complimented by good players from other clubs, the same with Germany and bayern.
Unfortunatly our kids stop developing around the 21 years old mark and don't get much better I think both culture and how our game is set up is to blame, there's too much at stake for SPL clubs to play youngsters at the top of our game if u get relegated your doomed, although a lot get farmed out you can only learn so much in div 3 and the like

heretoday
17-06-2012, 12:39 PM
Good thread. I can't believe 11 Spanish kids are inherently better at ball skills and passing than 11 Scots lads.

500miles
17-06-2012, 12:46 PM
Good thread. I can't believe 11 Spanish kids are inherently better at ball skills and passing than 11 Scots lads.

Having ten times the talent pool to pick from, and a climate which doesn't make playing football seem like chore every soggy, sodden day probably helps.

There are cultural and coaching differences, but the above definately counts for something as well.

woody47
17-06-2012, 12:48 PM
I think we need to change the mentality of the parents first, then the kids. How many kids just sit in front of PC's, game boys and mobile phones etc instead of being out playing football? How much does it cost a bunch of kids to hire a hall for 5-a-sides? How many kids would rather go and have a bottle of buckie and sit on street corners?
Until we change out whole culture we will never grow into any sort of football nation.
And just look at our so called professionals. How many hours do they actually train in a week? Four/five mornings?
I also think we really need to get schools involved more as well. When my son was at school he was lucky to get one hour a week doing PE and only then it was only once a month would they get to play a bit of football.
The government needs to step in with funds to help but I really cant see that happening.
We also need to get parents more involved in helping as when I was coaching, I felt I was more an unpaid baby sitter than a coach. Parents would just drop their kids off at training or the game and then disappear for the next hour to two hours. Absolutely no help was given. Even helping with putting up nets would mean, as a coach, we would have had an extra fifteen mninutes working with the kids.
As I said, we need to start with the parents and once they are on board the kids will follow.

Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 01:03 PM
Having ten times the talent pool to pick from, and a climate which doesn't make playing football seem like chore every soggy, sodden day probably helps.

There are cultural and coaching differences, but the above definately counts for something as well.

We can't blame the weather, there are thousands of kids who go to footie training in Scotland during the week and then play at the weekend.

We have the young men in large numbers who want to play but unfortunately they have ben let down over the years in the way they are being coached.

Every coach out there whether they are ametuer or pro should be taking a long hard look at themselves and asking the question, do I coach my team to play football the right way or do I coach just to win football matches.

Viva_Palmeiras
17-06-2012, 01:30 PM
I think we need to change the mentality of the parents first, then the kids. How many kids just sit in front of PC's, game boys and mobile phones etc instead of being out playing football? How much does it cost a bunch of kids to hire a hall for 5-a-sides? How many kids would rather go and have a bottle of buckie and sit on street corners?
Until we change out whole culture we will never grow into any sort of football nation.
And just look at our so called professionals. How many hours do they actually train in a week? Four/five mornings?
I also think we really need to get schools involved more as well. When my son was at school he was lucky to get one hour a week doing PE and only then it was only once a month would they get to play a bit of football.
The government needs to step in with funds to help but I really cant see that happening.
We also need to get parents more involved in helping as when I was coaching, I felt I was more an unpaid baby sitter than a coach. Parents would just drop their kids off at training or the game and then disappear for the next hour to two hours. Absolutely no help was given. Even helping with putting up nets would mean, as a coach, we would have had an extra fifteen mninutes working with the kids.
As I said, we need to start with the parents and once they are on board the kids will follow.


We used to play at Inverleith park and Warriston during the school hols in the 80s. Got chased off by the parkie at Warriston. Yet dogs were allowed to be walked there - treated worse than dogs! No effing wonder things are going down the tubes if what little green spaces are left are denied to the very people that should be encouraged to use it?

Hibbyradge
17-06-2012, 01:44 PM
Go and watch kids football and listen to the way the adults "encourage" their children to, er, develop their skills and take risks. :rolleyes:

Then you'll find out what's wrong with our football.

Kato
17-06-2012, 01:54 PM
Let's change our culture.


Yeah, good luck with that.

Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 01:56 PM
Go and watch kids football and listen to the way the adults "encourage" their children to, er, develop their skills and take risks. :rolleyes:

Then you'll find out what's wrong with our football.


Maybe we should do something about that ? Maybe ban the parents from watching, I hated my parents watching me play. Added pressure that kids don't need.

Why oh why can't we do something as simple as this??

Pretty Boy
17-06-2012, 02:03 PM
Go and watch kids football and listen to the way the adults "encourage" their children to, er, develop their skills and take risks. :rolleyes:

Then you'll find out what's wrong with our football.

'Cut out the ****ing fancy stuff'.

The war cry of touchline Hitlers running many, not all, of the youth teams in this country.

ScottB
17-06-2012, 03:32 PM
Having ten times the talent pool to pick from, and a climate which doesn't make playing football seem like chore every soggy, sodden day probably helps.

There are cultural and coaching differences, but the above definately counts for something as well.

Well yeah, Spain is an unfair comparison, Denmark would be a spot on comparison. They have a slightly smaller population than us, not a massively different climate, and look at the players they produce consistently.

Uruguay has almost half our population, a much different country / situation, but still. The nations in Europe that have committed to introduce a system from young kids up to international level in the last few decades; France, Spain, Germany etc have all shown that the results will come. I doubt anybody is expecting a similar effort from us to turn us into world beaters, but the current methods are seeing us fall further and further away from just qualifying for a tournament. With the Fletcher / McFadden / Brown generation all likely past their peaks and little sign of similar players, never mind better emerging, especially with us, the supposed famed producers of youth, clearly something must be done.

As I said, I can only hope the Dutch Performance Director the SFA now has has actual power, but I can't ever see all those involved in the Scottish game doing a Germany; everyone getting together, agreeing a plan and following it through for the greater good. There will always be someone who will take the chance to strengthen themselves over everyone else.

jgl07
17-06-2012, 03:43 PM
Anyone who has watched Swansea play this season must have been impressed how a newly promoted team could play such a passing style with no real star players. Not only that they suceeded and finished in a healthy mid-table position. I think that in terms of passing statistics they were behind only Manchester City in the PL and up there with the best of Europe.

Too many teams take the kick and rush style typified by Stoke.

Is there any reason that the same approach would not work in Scotland?

ScottB
17-06-2012, 03:59 PM
Anyone who has watched Swansea play this season must have been impressed how a newly promoted team could play such a passing style with no real star players. Not only that they suceeded and finished in a healthy mid-table position. I think that in terms of passing statistics they were behind only Manchester City in the PL and up there with the best of Europe.

Too many teams take the kick and rush style typified by Stoke.

Is there any reason that the same approach would not work in Scotland?

They had the 6th highest passing accuracy in Europe, behind Barca, Bayern, City, Real and Chelsea.

Amazingly, Leon Britton had the best accuracy of any player in Europe, finishing ahead of Xavi!


Would it work here? Perhaps. Under Mowbray our passing game fell apart against teams that were happy to try and kick us off the park, but it was a very different game than the possession passing style introduced by Barcelona.

brianmc
17-06-2012, 05:39 PM
Apologies for not reading all previous post before commenting BUT it really, really boils ma pish at Easter road when (on the admittedly rare occasion in the last couple of years) the players keep possession, knock the ball across the midfield, then to the back 4 and within 5-6 passes several muppets in the crowd are raging " git it up the ****in park!!". Until this numbskull fan view if the game us changed I fear we are knackered with a capital F.

marinello59
17-06-2012, 06:11 PM
Up here in Aberdeen they have only just decided that 11 a side for primary schools is a nonsense. (Despite the fact the rest of Europe and the majority of the UK could see the benefits of the seven a side game a few dinosaurs knew better.) Even now they are trying to get a nine a side league going because they still have trophys to play for. Kids were discarded to the seven a side teams in P6 up here as not being good enough. Bonkers.

Mibbes Aye
17-06-2012, 07:11 PM
Apologies for not reading all previous post before commenting BUT it really, really boils ma pish at Easter road when (on the admittedly rare occasion in the last couple of years) the players keep possession, knock the ball across the midfield, then to the back 4 and within 5-6 passes several muppets in the crowd are raging " git it up the ****in park!!". Until this numbskull fan view if the game us changed I fear we are knackered with a capital F.

:agree:

All my years watching Hibs it's been consistent, you just know that we can be keeping possession and after half a dozen passes, if the ball's going back the way and we're just knocking it about then you can feel the atmosphere change and the disgruntlement start - not amongst everybody but certainly enough folk.

Yet we watch a Spain or whomever do it and we think "Yup, good stuff, patient build-up, make the ball do the work and the opposition do the chasing".

(In fairness we haven't shown much capacity for possesson football in recent seasons and I'm not sure that sort of reaction is unique to fans at ER.)

Mibbes Aye
17-06-2012, 07:31 PM
We can't blame the weather, there are thousands of kids who go to footie training in Scotland during the week and then play at the weekend.

We have the young men in large numbers who want to play but unfortunately they have ben let down over the years in the way they are being coached.

Every coach out there whether they are ametuer or pro should be taking a long hard look at themselves and asking the question, do I coach my team to play football the right way or do I coach just to win football matches.

I coach children's football, six to eight-year olds mostly. That's the gateway for kids into organised football and believe it or not, the emphasis is on kids just controlling the ball, passing it and dribbling, with a bit of shooting etc. The way the seven-a-sides is structured, as they progress into it, also promotes getting comfortable with the ball. I appreciate things invariably start to get more competitive as children grow older although I wouldn't underestimate how much the desire to win is a driver for the kids and the youths, as opposed to the coaches - even at Primary 2 age, children generally just want to get on with playing against each other and are desperate to win/score.

I think the reasons that we end up producing players without the technical ability of our European counterparts are complex and some factors have been touched upon in this thread already but there are many others, and it's no one thing, it's a combination - so yes, the weather doesn't help, but neither does the fact that the Premiership has a high profile and tends to be a more high-tempo, end-to-end product and kids repeat what they see. They are only two contributing factors, not even the main ones, amongst many more IMO.

More widely, patience itself seems to be a scarcer and scarcer commodity while our sense of entitlement seems to have grown massively in my lifetime. and I can't help but wonder whether the hard work involved in being disciplined and taking the time to work on the basics, whether as a teacher or a learner, is simply beyond a lot of folk nowadays.......

Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 07:43 PM
It's not just the passing or retaining the ball that we don't seem to be able to do.

It's the movement off the ball.

We seem to be a nation of ball watchers.

What ever happened to the old art of pass and move.

Ozyhibby
17-06-2012, 07:49 PM
As I am a volunteer coach at youth level I thought I would offer my point of view and challenge a few of the myths that I have seen repeated here.
First of all, all kids up to the age of 9 only play 4 a side. If your kid is playing 11 a side it is not sanctioned by the SFA and you should pull them out and get them signed up with a proper club.
From the age of 9-12 they are only allowed to play 7 a side. This is where there is most resistance from boys clubs trying to move them to 11 a side at age 11 but the SFA have become very strict and are winning the argument. Again if your kid is playing 11's then you should remove them and get them to a proper club.
From 13 onwards they move to 11 a side.
The quality of coaching is improving and the SFA should be commended on the work they are doing in making sure all coaches are qualified to a min level 3. The courses are good quality and and reasonably priced.
As far as negative shouting from the sidelines goes, it does happen but a lot of work is being done to stamp it out. It's not helpful but I don't think it is the main reason we are not producing players.
Now if all that is the case then we should be world beaters. Not quite. The biggest problem I can see is that our kids don't play enough. We still run a system where the kids train on a Wednesday and have a game at the weekend. In the old days this worked fine as when we weren't at training we were down the park with our mates playing footy till dark. This no longer happens as we don't let our kids out unsupervised anymore. Those days are not coming back. They have the same problem in every other country in Europe. This difference is in how we have dealt with it. In Spain (about 15 years ago) they trained up thousands of coaches so that youth clubs could offer football three times a week plus a Sunday. This makes a massive difference. This year I have been coaching 5 year olds and from a group of 40 kids there are about 6-8 players who are already technically miles ahead of the rest of the group. Without exception, they are all getting extra football away from us. If it's already made a difference at 5 year old then by the time they're 15 the difference is massive.
The kids need to be playing at least 4 times a week and elite level players should be playing everyday. In France their elit players train at least 2 hours a day from the age of 12.
The SFA have moved this year to replicate this with the introduction of the performance schools ( the Edinburgh one is Broughton high) where the top 12 kids get two hours football a day while at school with fully qualified SFA coaches. There are 7 of these so that means every year we have 84 kids going through this system. We will see the result of this in about 8 years. My feeling is it will be a success.
Sorry for the rant, but get sick hearing about how crap we coaches all are at youth level. Mistakes have been made in the past but mostly we just did not act fast enough to the changes in the way kids play. The work being done by Mark Wotte in training up coaches will pay dividends in the long run.
If your still not convinced then get yourself down and give us a hand, you won't be turned away.

Greentinted
17-06-2012, 08:00 PM
'Cut out the ****ing fancy stuff'.

The war cry of touchline Hitlers running many, not all, of the youth teams in this country.

I walked away fi laddies fitba' (as a coach) for the self same reason. And the parents were just as bad - "If ye cannae get the baw, get the effin man" (At under 10 level. WTF is that about?)

I knew 'coaches' who's charges won cups, leagues etc and these grown men would take the trophies out on the lash and the go home sleep wi them (The trophies). Hundreds of similar stories about failed adults living vicariously on the coaty tails of the success of the youngsters whose talent they were destroying.
(I know not all are like that but too many still are)

Littlest Hobo
17-06-2012, 08:29 PM
As I am a volunteer coach at youth level I thought I would offer my point of view and challenge a few of the myths that I have seen repeated here.
First of all, all kids up to the age of 9 only play 4 a side. If your kid is playing 11 a side it is not sanctioned by the SFA and you should pull them out and get them signed up with a proper club.
From the age of 9-12 they are only allowed to play 7 a side. This is where there is most resistance from boys clubs trying to move them to 11 a side at age 11 but the SFA have become very strict and are winning the argument. Again if your kid is playing 11's then you should remove them and get them to a proper club.
From 13 onwards they move to 11 a side.
The quality of coaching is improving and the SFA should be commended on the work they are doing in making sure all coaches are qualified to a min level 3. The courses are good quality and and reasonably priced.
As far as negative shouting from the sidelines goes, it does happen but a lot of work is being done to stamp it out. It's not helpful but I don't think it is the main reason we are not producing players.
Now if all that is the case then we should be world beaters. Not quite. The biggest problem I can see is that our kids don't play enough. We still run a system where the kids train on a Wednesday and have a game at the weekend. In the old days this worked fine as when we weren't at training we were down the park with our mates playing footy till dark. This no longer happens as we don't let our kids out unsupervised anymore. Those days are not coming back. They have the same problem in every other country in Europe. This difference is in how we have dealt with it. In Spain (about 15 years ago) they trained up thousands of coaches so that youth clubs could offer football three times a week plus a Sunday. This makes a massive difference. This year I have been coaching 5 year olds and from a group of 40 kids there are about 6-8 players who are already technically miles ahead of the rest of the group. Without exception, they are all getting extra football away from us. If it's already made a difference at 5 year old then by the time they're 15 the difference is massive.
The kids need to be playing at least 4 times a week and elite level players should be playing everyday. In France their elit players train at least 2 hours a day from the age of 12.
The SFA have moved this year to replicate this with the introduction of the performance schools ( the Edinburgh one is Broughton high) where the top 12 kids get two hours football a day while at school with fully qualified SFA coaches. There are 7 of these so that means every year we have 84 kids going through this system. We will see the result of this in about 8 years. My feeling is it will be a success.
Sorry for the rant, but get sick hearing about how crap we coaches all are at youth level. Mistakes have been made in the past but mostly we just did not act fast enough to the changes in the way kids play. The work being done by Mark Wotte in training up coaches will pay dividends in the long run.
If your still not convinced then get yourself down and give us a hand, you won't be turned away.

Good post mate, you have restored some of my faith in the future of Scottish football.

I agree about how much time our generation would play and how that doesn't happen anymore.

Watching Spain against Ireland, do the young lads get taught how to hold onto the ball? How to play the ball around, be patient, pass and move, make unselfish runs off the ball?

Do they do those type of exercises?

Kato
17-06-2012, 08:39 PM
The SFA have moved this year to replicate this with the introduction of the performance schools ( the Edinburgh one is Broughton high) where the top 12 kids get two hours football a day while at school with fully qualified SFA coaches. There are 7 of these so that means every year we have 84 kids going through this system.

12 kids in Edinburgh and 84 throughout the country?

Does that not strike you as a minute amount?

Don't get me wrong I think the way that course is planned out is the way ahead but the numbers involved strike me as tokenism.

Ozyhibby
17-06-2012, 08:55 PM
12 kids in Edinburgh and 84 throughout the country?

Does that not strike you as a minute amount?

Don't get me wrong I think the way that course is planned out is the way ahead but the numbers involved strike me as tokenism.

Scotland does not produce 84 new professional footballers each year so I would not say it tokenism but you are correct in that it could be higher and the aim is to double the size of the programme when money allows.

Kato
17-06-2012, 09:05 PM
Scotland does not produce 84 new professional footballers each year so I would not say it tokenism but you are correct in that it could be higher and the aim is to double the size of the programme when money allows.


Bottom line for me is the SFA can bring in all the courses, plans and whatever and nothing will improve unless there is a huge investment in facilities. Every country mentioned in this thread has invested in facilities that far out-strip ours. In fact we have Councils who sell playing fields for housing, thus decreasing the facilities even more.

Even with 84 places on that course we still won't produce 84 pro-footballers each year. The fall-rate from these things is naturally high and in Scotland, if you excuse the cynicism, will be naturally even higher.

Ozyhibby
17-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Good post mate, you have restored some of my faith in the future of Scottish football.

I agree about how much time our generation would play and how that doesn't happen anymore.

Watching Spain against Ireland, do the young lads get taught how to hold onto the ball? How to play the ball around, be patient, pass and move, make unselfish runs off the ball?

Do they do those type of exercises?

We do all the same games they do in Spain and Holland. There are no great secrets, it's not something they put in the water. A lot of coaches from all over the world have headed there to observe their system. The biggest difference is in the amount of coaches they have trained (Spain 23,000 uefa 'B' coaches England 2,700) which allows the kids more time playing footy.
A lot of top Spanish coaches have done their training here in Scotland.
It really is all about getting the kids more time with the ball playing small sided games. We have done the small sided games part but we need more coaches to volunteer to do the second part. Believe me, our kids are as good as any in the world.

Ozyhibby
17-06-2012, 09:20 PM
Bottom line for me is the SFA can bring in all the courses, plans and whatever and nothing will improve unless there is a huge investment in facilities. Every country mentioned in this thread has invested in facilities that far out-strip ours. In fact we have Councils who sell playing fields for housing, thus decreasing the facilities even more.

Even with 84 places on that course we still won't produce 84 pro-footballers each year. The fall-rate from these things is naturally high and in Scotland, if you excuse the cynicism, will be naturally even higher.

I agree with you that we need more places on the course but it has only begun this year and is a step in the right direction. The SFA agree with you too.
New facilities are nice and if you ask anyone in youth football in Edinburgh they have improved a lot. The amount of 3 and 4G pitches in the city has risen a lot recently. We definitely need more and also to use the facilities we have got better. We def need more, cheaper and easier access to school halls.
But facilities are not everything and a good coach will be able to run a good session on any scrap of grass he can find.

Lucius Apuleius
18-06-2012, 06:37 AM
I am amazed at so many saying it is the lack of proper training facilities and yet, probably not the same people, think EM was a total waste of money?

TrickyNicky
18-06-2012, 06:59 AM
I agree with you that we need more places on the course but it has only begun this year and is a step in the right direction. The SFA agree with you too.
New facilities are nice and if you ask anyone in youth football in Edinburgh they have improved a lot. The amount of 3 and 4G pitches in the city has risen a lot recently. We definitely need more and also to use the facilities we have got better. We def need more, cheaper and easier access to school halls.
But facilities are not everything and a good coach will be able to run a good session on any scrap of grass he can find.

I'm of the opinion that indoor facilities are the key.

Not only for the weather but the game of FUTSAL is the best form of development I've seen for young kids, harder balls, no hoofing, it's played on the deck, it's fast, it's five a side, they can't bounce it off the wall, if it goes out they take a short sharp pass, the goals aren't too little or too big, they learn the limited rules fast and understand the basics of the game.

I've seen 6 and 7 year olds over here in Oz that play for a team called Soccer De Brazil and they are doing step-overs, Romario pull-backs, one-two's, first touch passes and they are screaming " ole " on the sidelines.

The goalie rolls the ball out to a defender and they can pass the ball and keep possession for 20 passes - I kid you not !

The kids train hard and in matches I've seen players subbed for a couple of minutes for trying a long range shot.

Their outdoor matches are 4 v 4, no goalies, no defending in the D, they play a diamond formation and they are fast as *#@* !!

The whole team congratulates each other and the team managers removes any parents acting up - in fact the incidents of parents being tools are few and far between.


These kids love it and I've seen opposing coaches applauding them.

Kato
18-06-2012, 07:49 AM
I agree with you that we need more places on the course but it has only begun this year and is a step in the right direction. The SFA agree with you too.
New facilities are nice and if you ask anyone in youth football in Edinburgh they have improved a lot. The amount of 3 and 4G pitches in the city has risen a lot recently. We definitely need more and also to use the facilities we have got better. We def need more, cheaper and easier access to school halls.
But facilities are not everything and a good coach will be able to run a good session on any scrap of grass he can find.


Good for you for being optimistic, mate - sorry it's not something I fully share. I'm naturally upbeat but not on this subject after years of lip service from the SFA.

I think you under-estimate the need for good facilities though.

Ozyhibby
18-06-2012, 08:02 AM
I'm of the opinion that indoor facilities are the key.

Not only for the weather but the game of FUTSAL is the best form of development I've seen for young kids, harder balls, no hoofing, it's played on the deck, it's fast, it's five a side, they can't bounce it off the wall, if it goes out they take a short sharp pass, the goals aren't too little or too big, they learn the limited rules fast and understand the basics of the game.

I've seen 6 and 7 year olds over here in Oz that play for a team called Soccer De Brazil and they are doing step-overs, Romario pull-backs, one-two's, first touch passes and they are screaming " ole " on the sidelines.

The goalie rolls the ball out to a defender and they can pass the ball and keep possession for 20 passes - I kid you not !

The kids train hard and in matches I've seen players subbed for a couple of minutes for trying a long range shot.

Their outdoor matches are 4 v 4, no goalies, no defending in the D, they play a diamond formation and they are fast as *#@* !!

The whole team congratulates each other and the team managers removes any parents acting up - in fact the incidents of parents being tools are few and far between.


These kids love it and I've seen opposing coaches applauding them.

Exactly. I agree with all of that. It's a myth that brazilians learn to play on the beach. They learn in gymnasiums playing futsal. We have futsal here as well up at the corn exchange over the winter. We just need it to catch on more. My own kid plays futsal twice a week in Edinburgh.

Brightside
18-06-2012, 09:08 AM
Not as long as the vital kid stage in Scotland is dominated by the 'win at all costs, pick the big kids and humph it up the park' mentality.

The Spanish have UEFA 5 Star rated coaches from the lowest level of their game up, kids grow up in the system, focused on skills and the like.

What to implement is patently obvious, doubt there's any desire among the many vested interests in our game to step aside though. Can only hope that this Dutch guy can overcome the Leveins and introduce a system for the future.


It is definitely possible however, look at the work Germany has done over the last 12 years.

Agree with this. Also far too many bad habits drilled into kids by parents that still think its acceptable for kids to be kicking lumps out of each other on the park.

Andy74
18-06-2012, 09:53 AM
Apologies for not reading all previous post before commenting BUT it really, really boils ma pish at Easter road when (on the admittedly rare occasion in the last couple of years) the players keep possession, knock the ball across the midfield, then to the back 4 and within 5-6 passes several muppets in the crowd are raging " git it up the ****in park!!". Until this numbskull fan view if the game us changed I fear we are knackered with a capital F.

That's right. The fans in Scotland would need educated too. We just don't seem to like our football that way. Even at Hibs where we supposeldy like passing, attacking football, i think that only means if we can get it forward quickly.

Barcelona and Spain are happy to keep the ball going sideways and backwards as long as they still have ball and wait for the right chance to open up. There's no danger we'd accept that and we couldn't do it even a fraction as well as they do.

Kato
18-06-2012, 08:12 PM
Watching Spain just now got me thinking about this thread and how the Scottish sporting mentality compares to the Spanish.

The main traditional tribal Spanish sport sees a man standing up against a wild, angry bull and he uses feints, slight movements and disguises to escape injury and, eventually brings about the death of the bull.

The main traditional tribal Scottish sport sees a man trying to chuck a muckle big tree trunk up on it's end whilst wearing a skirt.

I think that sums up why we can't play patient football.

Ozyhibby
25-06-2012, 07:19 AM
Just seen this on the web and thought it was relevant. Although Scotland is not there I think our numbers are proportionally similar to England's.
This is the most important change we need to make to the game here. Get yourselves down to your local club and offer to help. Once you have done a few SFA courses you start to see the game differently and you'll enjoy it more.

UEFA licensed coaches
Germany = 34,970
Italy = 29,240
Spain = 23,995
England = 2,796

TrickyNicky
25-06-2012, 10:16 AM
Just seen this on the web and thought it was relevant. Although Scotland is not there I think our numbers are proportionally similar to England's.
This is the most important change we need to make to the game here. Get yourselves down to your local club and offer to help. Once you have done a few SFA courses you start to see the game differently and you'll enjoy it more.

UEFA licensed coaches
Germany = 34,970
Italy = 29,240
Spain = 23,995
England = 2,796


Rubbish, ah've played enough fitbaw up the Gyle tae ken what the beautiful game looks like son!:wink:

JohnStephens91
25-06-2012, 10:58 AM
When I was playing youth football our coach just forced us to play long balls and a 4-5-1 formation, as the lone striker I feel it stunted the growth of myself as there would often be no support from the midfield and it would just be me getting booted in the shins and getting called a 'weak-link' by the coach. Whenever I played in defensive midfield as I was one of the 'big lads' of the team I would pass the ball about the midfield and to the wings only to yet again be called a 'weak-link' for some players not taking the ball in the right manner. However for my school I scored a lot of goals when I had a striker partner and we kept the ball on the ground and it suited the style of play I had.

This was about 5 or 6 years ago, how much has the youth game changed since then? Obviously there are different ideologies to play with as my school and club ended up proving, but is there any foolproof way to change this? For me the answer is a pessimistic one as too often we see players in the youth leagues being abused by their coaches and their parents for not lumping the ball forward. I appreciate that there are good coaches out there and they are trying their best to change the culture that was rife when I played. Hopefully it can all change, it is about time that it did.

GreenCastle
25-06-2012, 12:16 PM
An interesting discussion - here are a few of my views -


Population of a country doesn't matter - look at Denmark, Finland, Norway, Uruguay in football -and New Zealand in Rugby!
Coaches are key - the quality of youth coach is massive. In some countries the youth coaches get paid more than senior coaches - key learning ages the players need to be taught the correct technique - if this window of opportunity is lost bad habits can develop.
Facilities - there are plenty of indoor and outdoor spaces in Scotland which can be used - it's an easy excuse to use. As pointed out - a good coach can utilize any space to benefit players.
Mentality in Scotland - this seems to be changing with generations but still many uneducated parents and players (poor diet and drinking culture)
Youth coaches at Pro Clubs - still many coaches in SPL / SFL teams in Scotland are ex players who aren't good coaches but just a name or a good friend to the manager - this limits development also.
SFA Performance Centers - it's a start and should have happened years ago - right now we are playing catch up and this is while other nations continue to develop also. There are a few flaws with the centers - numbers (coach to player ratio / obviously due to costs). Players are in the system but what happens with the late developers ? How these players are selected - is the selection criteria fair.
Practice - this is a key issue also - there is the nonsense about 10,000 hours but the reality is that many players don't practice as much as they should.

Overall change is being implemented but fans / parents will have to be patient as it's not going to happen over night - 8-10 years time you may see some progress but as stated about the other countries are striving to be better all the time also. I also think Scotland should find their own style which works - don't try and copy just the Spanish. Find a mixture of qualities from Spain / Holland / Portugal / Germany as it's very different to replicate an exact style unless you copy everything they put in place in their own culture.

Thecat23
25-06-2012, 12:32 PM
People batter on about Spain all the time. But I think we should be looking to adapt the way the Germans do things. The whole set up and the way the train kids is superb.

Lucius Apuleius
25-06-2012, 03:03 PM
People batter on about Spain all the time. But I think we should be looking to adapt the way the Germans do things. The whole set up and the way the train kids is superb.

A few years ago we were saying we should be following the Dutch model. Personally I don't give a flying **** who we copy or what style we adopt as long as we start winning bloody games.

Jim Scotts hat trick
25-06-2012, 06:20 PM
Just seen this on the web and thought it was relevant. Although Scotland is not there I think our numbers are proportionally similar to England's.
This is the most important change we need to make to the game here. Get yourselves down to your local club and offer to help. Once you have done a few SFA courses you start to see the game differently and you'll enjoy it more.

UEFA licensed coaches
Germany = 34,970
Italy = 29,240
Spain = 23,995
England = 2,796

W hat we need is back to the old days , twenty a side down at the meadows , cock or a hen, three hour games , celtic on one side and dougie love on the other kicking lumps out of you (folk of an older generation will remember them) and at the end of the game celtic would untuck his trousers from his socks pull out his camera and take your photo then up to my grans house for litres of water and a biscuit.

cockneymike
27-06-2012, 01:11 AM
I agree with a lot of what of OzyHibby is saying here is a link to BBC Scotland report on the performance schools:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/16595158

I think it is a great initiative and if they're taking in 84+ (I'd read it could be more) kids a year each year for the next 10 years across the country and giving them the extra skills development that they need to step up, in 2020, which is when Mark Wotte, the Dutchman who is leading the project, we'll really start to see some progress.

The idea also seems to be about creating a database of all the kids that don't make the cut for these schools as well, I read an article saying that they had 100+ kids invited to the trials for the Broughton school programme alone. So that suggests that there are 700 11/12 years olds across Scotland that they're keeping tabs on that they think might make it. That should at least mean that we don't have the likes of McGeady and McArthur playing for Ireland in the future, as they'll get picked up and put into the system sooner.

Essentially they're adopting an Aussie Institute of Sport/ old school Soviet Olympic style mentality that no kid with the right attributes at 11 is allowed to slip through the net. And that is the key age before they start secondary school and get the real influences of drink and other stuff coming at them.

Hopefully the financial hit that the SFA will take from the death of the Huns won't affect this programme too much, as it is probably the most important initiative they can do.

Interestingly old Greg Miller is the Broughton school coach - son of Alex, and ex-Hibs 'star'! http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/scott-booth-leads-familiar-faces-as-sfas-performance-schools-network-finally-reaches-the-nations-classrooms.16152

Wotte also says that we need to increase the number of pitches too:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/future-of-football/2012/01/25/sfa-performance-director-mart-wotte-old-firm-must-loan-out-top-kids-or-risk-killing-their-careers-86908-23718919/

Its not rocket science - but it needs someone to push it and fair play to the SFA for at long last trying something.

Sunny1875
27-06-2012, 04:41 AM
As I am a volunteer coach at youth level I thought I would offer my point of view and challenge a few of the myths that I have seen repeated here.
First of all, all kids up to the age of 9 only play 4 a side. If your kid is playing 11 a side it is not sanctioned by the SFA and you should pull them out and get them signed up with a proper club.
From the age of 9-12 they are only allowed to play 7 a side. This is where there is most resistance from boys clubs trying to move them to 11 a side at age 11 but the SFA have become very strict and are winning the argument. Again if your kid is playing 11's then you should remove them and get them to a proper club.
From 13 onwards they move to 11 a side.
The quality of coaching is improving and the SFA should be commended on the work they are doing in making sure all coaches are qualified to a min level 3. The courses are good quality and and reasonably priced.
As far as negative shouting from the sidelines goes, it does happen but a lot of work is being done to stamp it out. It's not helpful but I don't think it is the main reason we are not producing players.
Now if all that is the case then we should be world beaters. Not quite. The biggest problem I can see is that our kids don't play enough. We still run a system where the kids train on a Wednesday and have a game at the weekend. In the old days this worked fine as when we weren't at training we were down the park with our mates playing footy till dark. This no longer happens as we don't let our kids out unsupervised anymore. Those days are not coming back. They have the same problem in every other country in Europe. This difference is in how we have dealt with it. In Spain (about 15 years ago) they trained up thousands of coaches so that youth clubs could offer football three times a week plus a Sunday. This makes a massive difference. This year I have been coaching 5 year olds and from a group of 40 kids there are about 6-8 players who are already technically miles ahead of the rest of the group. Without exception, they are all getting extra football away from us. If it's already made a difference at 5 year old then by the time they're 15 the difference is massive.
The kids need to be playing at least 4 times a week and elite level players should be playing everyday. In France their elit players train at least 2 hours a day from the age of 12.
The SFA have moved this year to replicate this with the introduction of the performance schools ( the Edinburgh one is Broughton high) where the top 12 kids get two hours football a day while at school with fully qualified SFA coaches. There are 7 of these so that means every year we have 84 kids going through this system. We will see the result of this in about 8 years. My feeling is it will be a success.
Sorry for the rant, but get sick hearing about how crap we coaches all are at youth level. Mistakes have been made in the past but mostly we just did not act fast enough to the changes in the way kids play. The work being done by Mark Wotte in training up coaches will pay dividends in the long run.
If your still not convinced then get yourself down and give us a hand, you won't be turned away.

Great post mate, But i must say some of the other comments are Valid, Coaches do live vicariously through the kids in their charge, Also there is a win at all costs mentality that permeates the game. I have heard coaches express that there is a team for all kids who want to play but in the next breath tell the parent it's not at this club though. In all things children develop at different rates. If I think back to my own school days there were certain players who were physically stronger and more developed. These players were cherry picked by a FEW of Edinburgh's top boys clubs, to win games and trophies, this they duly did and some even ended up in the professional game. The vast majority ended up playing in Saturday and Sunday leagues with no more skill and sometimes considerably less than those who were left behind through the development stage. We are told that this is no longer the case and clubs are working with any child who wants to play at grass roots level, I wonder if this has changed as we are told it will or will the next breath dash those hopes.

The Green Goblin
27-06-2012, 09:54 AM
I'm of the opinion that indoor facilities are the key.

Not only for the weather but the game of FUTSAL is the best form of development I've seen for young kids, harder balls, no hoofing, it's played on the deck, it's fast, it's five a side, they can't bounce it off the wall, if it goes out they take a short sharp pass, the goals aren't too little or too big, they learn the limited rules fast and understand the basics of the game.

I've seen 6 and 7 year olds over here in Oz that play for a team called Soccer De Brazil and they are doing step-overs, Romario pull-backs, one-two's, first touch passes and they are screaming " ole " on the sidelines.

The goalie rolls the ball out to a defender and they can pass the ball and keep possession for 20 passes - I kid you not !

The kids train hard and in matches I've seen players subbed for a couple of minutes for trying a long range shot.

Their outdoor matches are 4 v 4, no goalies, no defending in the D, they play a diamond formation and they are fast as *#@* !!

The whole team congratulates each other and the team managers removes any parents acting up - in fact the incidents of parents being tools are few and far between.


These kids love it and I've seen opposing coaches applauding them.


The school I work at in Sao Paulo employs a full time football AND futsal coach. Boys and girls train in both. They continue to play futsal as well as football up to age 18, and there are professional futsal teams here. Your post is word for word the exact same as my (100% positive) experience of it too.