Is it time to start thinking about a fan ownership of Hibs?

[hibs0666]

St. Mirren fans are at the point of raising £1.5 million to buy the club and apply a fan ownership model.

Is the time now right for Hibs supporters to do the same?

[J-C]

St. Mirren fans are at the point of raising £1.5 million to buy the club and apply a fan ownership model.

Is the time now right for Hibs supporters to do the same?


Problem is Sir Tom will be looking for around £4m at least.

[easty]

Problem is Sir Tom will be looking for around £4m at least.

Problem is far too many fans (on here at least) think we should be spending money we dont have! Wouldnae trust these fans to run anything!:wink:

[Kato]

St. Mirren fans are at the point of raising £1.5 million to buy the club and apply a fan ownership model.

Is the time now right for Hibs supporters to do the same?

Who would we blame for being rubbish if that happened?:cb

[blackpoolhibs]

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, we will end up like Leeds United. :rolleyes:

Apparently we have to doff our cap to STF for ever, nobody or no scheme to run a football club can ever be better than the one we currently have in place at Easter Road.

[seven nowt]

Who would we blame for being rubbish if that happened?:cb

Fenlon!

[zlatan]

If the Motherwell model proves successful then I can see a few clubs going for it. I'd imagine the current owner would give the club to the fans for a cut price deal.

[down-the-slope]

Problem is far too many fans (on here at least) think we should be spending money we dont have! Wouldnae trust these fans to run anything!:wink:


:agree: - We would all have to abuse ourselves when we made a mess of it

[NAE NOOKIE]

Folk always mention Barcelona when it comes to fan ownership. But they have between 70 and 90 thousand at every home game and as far as I am aware you need to stump up a million quid just to sit on the board and even then they are squillions in debt.

Its an idea, but perhaps a fan on the board sort of thing would work better for us.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree: - We would all have to abuse ourselves when we made a mess of it

Nothing wrong with self abuse.

[whiskyhibby]

Where would the funding come from for the club? How would we address, as fan/owners say a £1M potential loss.........sorry for me it's a no goer

[hibs0666]

Where would the funding come from for the club? How would we address, as fan/owners say a £1M potential loss.........sorry for me it's a no goer

Works fantastically well in Germany, perhaps the most successful league system in the world.

[Ozyhibby]

It's a great idea and something we need to start thinking about as STF will not be around forever.
Couldn't bear to have an owner like Vlad in charge of our club.

[JohnStephens91]

Doubt it will happen and I think it is an atrocious idea anyway. Think of all the money that would need raised between a few thousand fans and how hard it would be to challenge for anything with so many conflicting views on how the club should be run and how much money needs spent. It has already been said that many are calling for money to be spent and it is money we don' have, if we are being run by fans we certainly will not have any money.

It was a little before my time, but when fans bought shares in the club when it was publicly trading on the stock market did we not run up mountains of debt and it led to Wallace Mercer wanting to effectively kill off the club. Some people must really have short memories as we ended up owning a series of wine bars somewhere in England. It is best to leave it to people who know how to manage money in a bad economic climate.

[blackpoolhibs]

Doubt it will happen and I think it is an atrocious idea anyway. Think of all the money that would need raised between a few thousand fans and how hard it would be to challenge for anything with so many conflicting views on how the club should be run and how much money needs spent. It has already been said that many are calling for money to be spent and it is money we don' have, if we are being run by fans we certainly will not have any money.

It was a little before my time, but when fans bought shares in the club when it was publicly trading on the stock market did we not run up mountains of debt and it led to Wallace Mercer wanting to effectively kill off the club. Some people must really have short memories as we ended up owning a series of wine bars somewhere in England. It is best to leave it to people who know how to manage money in a bad economic climate.

Would we not sell any season tickets? :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

No idea what sort of money it would take to buy out STF but if it was around £5m then a share issue would only require 5000 fans investing £1000 each. I'm sure there are ways of providing finance for such a scheme.
It would provide the fans with control over our future.

[JohnStephens91]

Would we not sell any season tickets? :confused:

Somehow I doubt selling about 10,000 season tickets will fund a whole season and allow investment into the squad to be optimised. You would need to find an owner who is willing to give some of his money as a gift to the club to build a successful team, or you would need to develop a lot of young talent to sell on for a high price.

Also you completely ignored everything else I said.

[Keith_M]

It was a little before my time, but when fans bought shares in the club when it was publicly trading on the stock market did we not run up mountains of debt and it led to Wallace Mercer wanting to effectively kill off the club. Some people must really have short memories as we ended up owning a series of wine bars somewhere in England. It is best to leave it to people who know how to manage money in a bad economic climate.

I get your point but that wasn't fan ownership, that was two useless gits, backed by a dodgy business man, ripping of the fans.


I don't personally think Fan ownership is a panacea for all Hibs' ills.

Also, while there is a rule in Germany stating the no individual can own more than 49% of a club, most clubs are still backed by big business and rich owners.

[JohnStephens91]

No idea what sort of money it would take to buy out STF but if it was around £5m then a share issue would only require 5000 fans investing £1000 each. I'm sure there are ways of providing finance for such a scheme.
It would provide the fans with control over our future.

As much as people love Hibs, I doubt we can find 5000 fans willing to part with £1000, and for it to be a continued investment. It is crazy to even think about buying out the club.

[CropleyWasGod]

Somehow I doubt selling about 10,000 season tickets will fund a whole season and allow investment into the squad to be optimised. You would need to find an owner who is willing to give some of his money as a gift to the club to build a successful team, or you would need to develop a lot of young talent to sell on for a high price.

Also you completely ignored everything else I said.

That's the way things are at the moment, though. ST's provide the money for new signings, and revenue from the rest of the season pays for running costs. Simple, but effective.

[blackpoolhibs]

No idea what sort of money it would take to buy out STF but if it was around £5m then a share issue would only require 5000 fans investing £1000 each. I'm sure there are ways of providing finance for such a scheme.
It would provide the fans with control over our future.

I have no idea if it would work, or even if its a good idea. Although to suggest as S&S has said, that the club would have no money is clearly just scaremongering.

We'd have everything we have today without the back up of a multi millionaire, unless one of the fans was one?

[Ozyhibby]

Doubt it will happen and I think it is an atrocious idea anyway. Think of all the money that would need raised between a few thousand fans and how hard it would be to challenge for anything with so many conflicting views on how the club should be run and how much money needs spent. It has already been said that many are calling for money to be spent and it is money we don' have, if we are being run by fans we certainly will not have any money.

It was a little before my time, but when fans bought shares in the club when it was publicly trading on the stock market did we not run up mountains of debt and it led to Wallace Mercer wanting to effectively kill off the club. Some people must really have short memories as we ended up owning a series of wine bars somewhere in England. It is best to leave it to people who know how to manage money in a bad economic climate.

That's not how I remember things and I don't see the mistakes that were made in the 80's being repeated.
There was no fan input in how the club was run at that time. Just a couple of chancers on the make.

[Barney McGrew]

Works fantastically well in Germany, perhaps the most successful league system in the world.

It works well in Germany because in most cases fans own 51% of the club. Firms and rich investors own the other 49%. It also probably helps that the Bundesliga has the second biggest TV income in the world after the EPL.

It's not to say that we couldn't use elements of their model though.

[bingo70]

Doubt it will happen and I think it is an atrocious idea anyway. Think of all the money that would need raised between a few thousand fans and how hard it would be to challenge for anything with so many conflicting views on how the club should be run and how much money needs spent. It has already been said that many are calling for money to be spent and it is money we don' have, if we are being run by fans we certainly will not have any money.

It was a little before my time, but when fans bought shares in the club when it was publicly trading on the stock market did we not run up mountains of debt and it led to Wallace Mercer wanting to effectively kill off the club. Some people must really have short memories as we ended up owning a series of wine bars somewhere in England. It is best to leave it to people who know how to manage money in a bad economic climate.

There wouldn't beconflict between thousands of fans, I'm pretty sure although the fans pay for it they elect someone to make all the decisions, its not like you'd have thousands of fans round a table arguing about the day to day running of the club.

I don't know enough about it to know if its a good thing or not but it works in too many different places too just right it off, thrre'd have to be definate proposals in place before anyone could say if it'd work or not

[JohnStephens91]

Sorry guys, but I just think it is too dangerous. The SPL generates so little money just now that to have a club in the hands of fans is a dangerous situation. What if a Newco goes straight into the top flight, how many supporters will we have left willing to invest in a club in a jury-rigged league?

I can't see this taking off at all, if it does then I will be surprised and of course still back the team, but I think it is in the best interests of the fans and of the club to remain in the hands of people with business acumen until we at least see a modicum of financial stability coming back into the SPL with higher attendances and a slightly better TV deal.

[marinello59]

It works well in Germany because in most cases fans own 51% of the club. Firms and rich investors own the other 49%. It also probably helps that the Bundesliga has the second biggest TV income in the world after the EPL.

It's not to say that we couldn't use elements of their model though.

:agree:
I have no idea how fan ownership would work or even if it could but the disconnection from the club felt by many supporters has to be addressed somehow.

[blackpoolhibs]

I see it sometimes on tv, where a team sign a player and the fans or A fan has put the money up for his fee or wages, Keane at Celtic comes to mind, or the Romanian at ICT. Would we have any fans who'd fancy this, could it work, would we want it or is it a bad thing? :dunno:

[Andy74]

No.

[Just Alf]

:agree:
I have no idea how fan ownership would work or even if it could but the disconnection from the club felt by many supporters has to be addressed somehow.

Agreed


IMHO fan ownership would work as a way of saving a dying club, it would also work to keep a club where it's at now competitively, but I just can't see us pumping the extra million or so on top of standard running costs to move the club upwards.

Don't get me wrong, put the money in and if/when success happens then more fans/money comes along.... It's getting that initial injection of "extra" cash I thinks the hurdle


Ps double checked and I'm pretty sure the hair on the palm thing must be a myth ;-)

[whiskyhibby]

Works fantastically well in Germany, perhaps the most successful league system in the world.

It certainly does with a lot of local government support and TV revenue...........

[whiskyhibby]

That's the way things are at the moment, though. ST's provide the money for new signings, and revenue from the rest of the season pays for running costs. Simple, but effective.

Eh!!! What other revenue........... 2000 to 3000 per home game and Tv money which may be diminishing..........I guess we could fund a perennial bottom 6 club

[blackpoolhibs]

Eh!!! What other revenue........... 2000 to 3000 per home game and Tv money which may be diminishing..........I guess we could fund a perennial bottom 6 club

And yet those other bottom 6 clubs, plus a few in the top 6 spend less, and bring in much less, how are they managing to stay in the SPL?

[CropleyWasGod]

Eh!!! What other revenue........... 2000 to 3000 per home game and Tv money which may be diminishing..........I guess we could fund a perennial bottom 6 club

That's the reality, though, which is the point I was making. We live within our means, whether fan-owned or not, and that can't change.

[hibs0666]

No idea what sort of money it would take to buy out STF but if it was around £5m then a share issue would only require 5000 fans investing £1000 each. I'm sure there are ways of providing finance for such a scheme.
It would provide the fans with control over our future.

If you can buy a debt free Rangers for £5.5 million there is no way Hibs is worth £5 million.

[hibs0666]

It certainly does with a lot of local government support and TV revenue...........

When organisaitions start to run as social enterprises then government funds become available in this country too. TV revenues are a function of a product attractiveness - can't see how the individual ownership model is doing that for us in Scotland.

[hibs0666]

I get your point but that wasn't fan ownership, that was two useless gits, backed by a dodgy business man, ripping of the fans.


I don't personally think Fan ownership is a panacea for all Hibs' ills.

Also, while there is a rule in Germany stating the no individual can own more than 49% of a club, most clubs are still backed by big business and rich owners.

When you become a community enterprise then it opens up the possibility of large corporate investment as part of a corporate social responsibility agenda. Rich owners would always be welcomed with open arms, it's just they they get one vote in running the club just like everyone else. They would of course gain a bigger share of any dividends generated.

[Jack]

There's the Chelski model where a benevolent owner has so much money the multi millions he spends is nothing but change in his pocket. That's not going to happen.

Y'all have the USA. model where they borrow the money then by hook or by crook move it to the football club to pay off in theory leaving them with a club the supporters have paid for that they can sell and run off with all the money. I don't think we would want that.

The zombiehuns way and only the OF could think they'll get away with it.

Or the STF way where he runs the show with a legitimate business model, but would be there if the club encounters a bit of financial grief.

A supporter led buy out sounds nice but there's too many financial demons out there to keep the Club safe, IMO.

[hibs0666]

There's the Chelski model where a benevolent owner has so much money the multi millions he spends is nothing but change in his pocket. That's not going to happen.

Y'all have the USA. model where they borrow the money then by hook or by crook move it to the football club to pay off in theory leaving them with a club the supporters have paid for that they can sell and run off with all the money. I don't think we would want that.

The zombiehuns way and only the OF could think they'll get away with it.

Or the STF way where he runs the show with a legitimate business model, but would be there if the club encounters a bit of financial grief.

A supporter led buy out sounds nice but there's too many financial demons out there to keep the Club safe, IMO.

Why do you think the club is safe if anything were to happen to STF?

[Aldo]

In a word NO

Sorry but we have an owner worth about wot. £100million ish. I am more than happy the way STF and RP are running the club..... Yes we are on turmoil and RP is partly to blame but do we want to find up like the Yams.

We have had budgets and will continue to have budgets.... It depends on how it's spent.

Wot happens when the new fan owners cannot raise enough cash to pay wages etc.... Answer. End of the club.

We are a lot bigger than st Mirren, st Johnstone yet they have done a hell of a lot better than us in the last couple of years.

Our expectation of the club (as fans) was spoilt during TM's reign. We need to drop our expectations IMHO. I really want a successful team but what I really want is guys that pull on the jersey and give their all, play as a team and show the fans (us) how much it means to pull on that jersey and play for Hibernian Football Club.

I am not looking for world beaters but guys who can play as a team and play for each other.

I have watched some very very poor hibs teams in the past, a number of relegations and some excellent performances at ER and away.

We need to unite as one as for me PF needs time and if given that time he will, for me anyway, will get it right.

Let's stop getting at he club and slagging them off. We ate in a better position than a lot of clubs so lets not wish our lives away. I might not have a ST (work commitments etc) but I can assure you of this I fully support the board and club to the hilt..... And so should everyone. Both through thick and thin.... And I do agree that everyone has an opinion and this is mines.

GG

[blackpoolhibs]

In a word NO

Sorry but we have an owner worth about wot. £100million ish. I am more than happy the way STF and RP are running the club..... Yes we are on turmoil and RP is partly to blame but do we want to find up like the Yams.

We have had budgets and will continue to have budgets.... It depends on how it's spent.

Wot happens when the new fan owners cannot raise enough cash to pay wages etc.... Answer. End of the club.

We are a lot bigger than st Mirren, st Johnstone yet they have done a hell of a lot better than us in the last couple of years.

Our expectation of the club (as fans) was spoilt during TM's reign. We need to drop our expectations IMHO. I really want a successful team but what I really want is guys that pull on the jersey and give their all, play as a team and show the fans (us) how much it means to pull on that jersey and play for Hibernian Football Club.

I am not looking for world beaters but guys who can play as a team and play for each other.

I have watched some very very poor hibs teams in the past, a number of relegations and some excellent performances at ER and away.

We need to unite as one as for me PF needs time and if given that time he will, for me anyway, will get it right.

Let's stop getting at he club and slagging them off. We ate in a better position than a lot of clubs so lets not wish our lives away. I might not have a ST (work commitments etc) but I can assure you of this I fully support the board and club to the hilt..... And so should everyone. Both through thick and thin.... And I do agree that everyone has an opinion and this is mines.

GG

:faf: that ones always used, or even better Leeds United. I suppose Rangers will start to sneak in, in the future?

We are as a club in a complete mess, no players, a support leaving in droves, and just escaped relegation. Yet you are happy, in fact more than happy with the way Rod and STF are running things.

Christ, if we manage 8th place this coming season, you might hyper ventilate?

[Kaiser1962]

Problem is Sir Tom will be looking for around £4m at least.

Farmer is out of pocket somewhere between £10m-£12m from his years of owning Hibs. Allowing for him to break even on his involvement with Hibs it would take a bid of around that to secure ownership. There is also the matter of the £6m debt (probably more) that we are carrying. To clear off both would take around £16m-£18m.


It's a great idea and something we need to start thinking about as STF will not be around forever.
Couldn't bear to have an owner like Vlad in charge of our club.


I strongly suspect we will end up as a Trust after Farmer (unless a sheik steps in between now and then)

[Aldo]

:faf: that ones always used, or even better Leeds United. I suppose Rangers will start to sneak in, in the future?

We are as a club in a complete mess, no players, a support leaving in droves, and just escaped relegation. Yet you are happy, in fact more than happy with the way Rod and STF are running things.

Christ, if we manage 8th place this coming season, you might hyper ventilate?

BH happy to have them run my club until someone better comes along (prob never) getting ****ed in the SCF and scrapping with relegation no not happy with that.

We were there before... In debt 16 to 20 million. I don't want to go there again. Yes it hurts and a lot but who else is going to run our club

[silverhibee]

Farmer is out of pocket somewhere between £10m-£12m from his years of owning Hibs. Allowing for him to break even on his involvement with Hibs it would take a bid of around that to secure ownership. There is also the matter of the £6m debt (probably more) that we are carrying. To clear off both would take around £16m-£18m.




I strongly suspect we will end up as a Trust after Farmer (unless a sheik steps in between now and then)



How much did STF pay for Hibs when he took over the club.?

[blackpoolhibs]

BH happy to have them run my club until someone better comes along (prob never) getting ****ed in the SCF and scrapping with relegation no not happy with that.

We were there before... In debt 16 to 20 million. I don't want to go there again. Yes it hurts and a lot but who else is going to run our club

No idea who or if anyone could come in and do better, but i'm far from happy with the way they are running it now, or for the last few years. Why do you mention debt of 16-20m? Is that what happens when you get new owners?

[Kaiser1962]

How much did STF pay for Hibs when he took over the club.?

Just shy of £3m

[Aldo]

No idea who or if anyone could come in and do better, but i'm far from happy with the way they are running it now, or for the last few years. Why do you mention debt of 16-20m? Is that what happens when you get new owners?

No it's not... But was that not the debt run up by RP and the board before the cost cutting and youth ..., ie brown whits, Thompson etc. I don't want to argue with anyone and I respect everyone's opinion and yes we are in turmoil but wit do we do... Push the boat out spend thousands/millions and have more debt???

I don't know... I said yes I am happy but I wouldn't be adverse to a change as long as its the interest of the CLUB

[SunshineOnLeith]

Its an idea, but perhaps a fan on the board sort of thing would work better for us.

Not picking on you personally, but whenever I see this idea raised I never understand it, what good would having a fan on the board do, other than leech more funds for their salary? Do people really think that there aren't any Hibs fans on the board at present? Or are businessmen and accountants somehow not 'real' fans?

[HibbySpurs]

In principle a wonderful idea but in the "real world" it's a no starter IMO.

Despite everything else its reasuuring tht the man at the top in STF bak the club in times of need by underwriting any debt to the creditors personally. 5,000 fans sticking in a grand each doesnt come with that security sadly.

What we neeed is for one of us to win one of those £110M dealies on the Euronmillions and then set aside a nice chunk of that to buy and invest in the club...... Imagine how far after purchase a little investment of say £10M would go....... ahhhhh to dream:greengrin

[Beefster]

Only if I get to be Chairman.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Only if I get to be Chairman.

no tory will ever run my club!!:wink:

I like the idea though and I suspect STF will as well. However it has to be implemented properly and with lots of safeguards.

However lets consider some things, lets say that 7k hibbys came forward and put up £1000 each to become a stakeholder in hibs. That would raise seven million pounds. Lets pretend thats enough to buy a major shareholding in hibs, lets say 51% and then STF and RP kept the rest of the shares. We then form a board consisting of a couple of business savy fans, and a few of the current board.

The Hibernian fans trust(or whatever it's called) then keeps its share of ny profit each year and banks it, unless we have a great year and we make a special dispensation to invest some in the team(this would be subject to a vote), when we make a loss it comes from the profit of previous years. So you never get a dividend and hopefully you are never asked to invest again.

However just in case there is a shortfall we devise a scheme that says if you want to sell or transfer your stake to another person there is a charge of £1k. This means that you never get your money back, but hibs continually get some income from new hibby's willing to invest. Other initiatives could surely be devised to allow the trust to have a pile of cash stashed away for a rainy day.

Nobody is investing to make money, we are doing it purely to help the thing we love, hibs!!

What if it all goes wrong, well we still have STF and RP helping, guiding and hopefully willing to invest if required. But yes, we as fans would have to invest as well, but then if we want the big signings and they don't work why shouldn't we bare the brunt??

It's a case of put up or shut up, if you want the right to have the control then you have to pay for it.

Football is changing and the days where someone bank rolls the club to the tune of millions are fading fast, we are lucky at hibs that our owner is genuine in his motives towards hibs, not all owners are, however the fans will always want the best and if we put the right rule sin place there is no reason why we cannot make this work.

I for one would buy a stake in a fan owned hibernian.

[Sunny1875]

:agree: - We would all have to abuse ourselves when we made a mess of it


Kinda like the sound of that

[TrickyNicky]

no tory will ever run my club!!:wink:

I like the idea though and I suspect STF will as well. However it has to be implemented properly and with lots of safeguards.

However lets consider some things, lets say that 7k hibbys came forward and put up £1000 each to become a stakeholder in hibs. That would raise seven million pounds. Lets pretend thats enough to buy a major shareholding in hibs, lets say 51% and then STF and RP kept the rest of the shares. We then form a board consisting of a couple of business savy fans, and a few of the current board.

The Hibernian fans trust(or whatever it's called) then keeps its share of ny profit each year and banks it, unless we have a great year and we make a special dispensation to invest some in the team(this would be subject to a vote), when we make a loss it comes from the profit of previous years. So you never get a dividend and hopefully you are never asked to invest again.

However just in case there is a shortfall we devise a scheme that says if you want to sell or transfer your stake to another person there is a charge of £1k. This means that you never get your money back, but hibs continually get some income from new hibby's willing to invest. Other initiatives could surely be devised to allow the trust to have a pile of cash stashed away for a rainy day.

Nobody is investing to make money, we are doing it purely to help the thing we love, hibs!!

What if it all goes wrong, well we still have STF and RP helping, guiding and hopefully willing to invest if required. But yes, we as fans would have to invest as well, but then if we want the big signings and they don't work why shouldn't we bare the brunt??

It's a case of put up or shut up, if you want the right to have the control then you have to pay for it.

Football is changing and the days where someone bank rolls the club to the tune of millions are fading fast, we are lucky at hibs that our owner is genuine in his motives towards hibs, not all owners are, however the fans will always want the best and if we put the right rule sin place there is no reason why we cannot make this work.

I for one would buy a stake in a fan owned hibernian.

A good starting point Big Hairy and one that should probably be looked at further.
I too would be willing to put money in .

[ALF TUPPER]

Fan ownership ? Dont we already have that. ;)

[brydekirk]

The club is in safe hands imo.
Whats missing is quality on the park. STs go towards the playing squad and this is where we fall short.
The fans could start a
players fund to help out. For as little as a £1 a week from 8 - 10 thousand fans at every home game would buy one very decent player each season. Just an idea.

[Hibbyradge]

St. Mirren fans are at the point of raising £1.5 million to buy the club and apply a fan ownership model.

Is the time now right for Hibs supporters to do the same?

This is a great idea.

Mind you, who would we get to run it on a day to day basis?

Petrie!!!!!!!!!! :grr::grr:

[Purple & Green]

How do other fan ownership schemes work?

I suppose it might be possible to get 10,000 Hibs fans to pay £10 a month for membership of fan ownership - especially if your season ticket was discounted as a member - could that be feasible?

Or would it take the form of an initial investment, say £1000 that would be a one off, that you could sell on to someone else for £1000 if you chose to leave. In the first example, what if you chose to leave - would you just leave the ownership scheme?

One of the issues that needs clarity to move forward on this would be what has STF invested in the last 20 years, and has it been repaid? Were the rates preferential - I'm not looking for a STF debate - but more could a fan ownership scheme match that, and would the business be significantly different without someone like STF guaranteeing the investment? I'd have concerns about that, and ensuring our safety, especially amongst the 'speculate to accumulate' fans which is the economics of the football mad house.

[bighairyfaeleith]

How do other fan ownership schemes work?

I suppose it might be possible to get 10,000 Hibs fans to pay £10 a month for membership of fan ownership - especially if your season ticket was discounted as a member - could that be feasible?

Or would it take the form of an initial investment, say £1000 that would be a one off, that you could sell on to someone else for £1000 if you chose to leave. In the first example, what if you chose to leave - would you just leave the ownership scheme?

One of the issues that needs clarity to move forward on this would be what has STF invested in the last 20 years, and has it been repaid? Were the rates preferential - I'm not looking for a STF debate - but more could a fan ownership scheme match that, and would the business be significantly different without someone like STF guaranteeing the investment? I'd have concerns about that, and ensuring our safety, especially amongst the 'speculate to accumulate' fans which is the economics of the football mad house.

My take on it would be that we have now everything in place so no substantial investment should be required in the next ten to fifteen years. Any big investment after that would be on bricks and mortar, i..e replace the famous five stand for example. This would be on a mortaged basis over the next fifteen years so no major outlay would be needed.

The only question mark is if we spend more than we bring in, but that has to be the fundamental principle of the club, we only spend what we have in the bank, no more. If we cannot generate it then we cannot spend it.

Any setup would have to have a means of making cash for a rainy day, but this could be done I'm sure as with between 5000 and 10000 stakeholders we could devise a relatively inexpensive method of doing this, how about a Hibernian credit union where every stakeholder can put in savings, not a lot but maybe upto £50 a month and as little as £10 a month. Assuming an average of £20 a month and 5000 stakeholders this would have a savings pot of £1.2million a year. The stakeholders would be free to take money out of this when they needed it. Hibernian FC Ltd could then apply to the credit union for a loan in the event that the Ltd company has a shortfall and would pay it back at a very modest rate of interest.

These are just off the top of my head ideas, but I think they show that it could be viable if people wanted it enough to put some real effort into it.

I'm sure STF would support an idea like this and I think he would actively help set it up as it's in line with his belief that hibs should exist for the community of leith and not for anyone person.

[Phil D. Rolls]

How would it work, I believe it has been succesful in Germany. Also, would I get a blazer and a seat on the team bus?

[millarco]

Here's more details on the St Mirren scheme: http://www.10000hours.org/

Motherwell: http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/the-club/the-well-society/

Supporters Direct: http://www.supporters-direct.org/home.asp

[TrickyNicky]

Here's more details on the St Mirren scheme: http://www.10000hours.org/

Motherwell: http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/the-club/the-well-society/

Supporters Direct: http://www.supporters-direct.org/home.asp


Thanks for these, loads of great info.:aok:

[Beefster]

How would it work, I believe it has been succesful in Germany. Also, would I get a blazer and a seat on the team bus?

Blazers, club ties and club y-fronts are mandatory for all club officials. If I become Chairman, I'll be campaigning for all ST holders to have to buy a club tie and wear it to games too.

"Vote Beefster, I'll smarten the place up".

I'm going to need a campaign headquarters and someone to rake up some dirt on Rodders, preferably with photos.

[TrickyNicky]

Blazers, club ties and club y-fronts are mandatory for all club officials. If I become Chairman, I'll be campaigning for all ST holders to have to buy a club tie and wear it to games too.

"Vote Beefster, I'll smarten the place up".

I'm going to need a campaign headquarters and someone to rake up some dirt on Rodders, preferably with photos.

I have one of him on the beach at Porty - Calderwood is sitting on a donkey dressed as a schoolboy with a large bag of sweets, Rodders is feeding the donkey what appears to be a frankfurter. ( It's a little hard to tell as it's a sepia toned black and white polaroid, burnt on one corner ).

[hibs0666]

I find it hard to understand some of the reluctance expressed here to even entrtain the idea of Hibs a a fully-blown members-owned organisation.

We are the only people who truly care for the club. As players, managers and wealthy businessmen come and go we are the only constants. For me, the idea of investigating what Hibs would look like when it was owned by the support is a total no-brainer.

[blackpoolhibs]

I find it hard to understand some of the reluctance expressed here to even entrtain the idea of Hibs a a fully-blown members-owned organisation.

We are the only people who truly care for the club. As players, managers and wealthy businessmen come and go we are the only constants. For me, the idea of investigating what Hibs would look like when it was owned by the support is a total no-brainer.

Because some folk are scared of their own shadow. They are so scared of STF leaving the club, that they are prepared to have nothing to do with discussions on the subject?

In fact the very mention of it has the Leeds United and Vladimir Romanov panic merchants out in force.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I find it hard to understand some of the reluctance expressed here to even entrtain the idea of Hibs a a fully-blown members-owned organisation.

We are the only people who truly care for the club. As players, managers and wealthy businessmen come and go we are the only constants. For me, the idea of investigating what Hibs would look like when it was owned by the support is a total no-brainer.

Think you're being a bit harsh on Tom Farmer there.


Because some folk are scared of their own shadow. They are so scared of STF leaving the club, that they are prepared to have nothing to do with discussions on the subject?

In fact the very mention of it has the Leeds United and Vladimir Romanov panic merchants out in force.

I'm not against it in principle. I'd like to know how it would work, and be reassured that we wouldn't just create an elite group of fans that would end serving their own interests. I'm thinking about the Stanford Experiment.

[The Falcon]

Because some folk are scared of their own shadow. They are so scared of STF leaving the club, that they are prepared to have nothing to do with discussions on the subject?

In fact the very mention of it has the Leeds United and Vladimir Romanov panic merchants out in force.

I am not "scared of my own shadow" and I am open to discussion on the subject and, like others, I would need to know more.

You slate others for bringing up negative examples so I would ask where, in the UK, has this been a success?

[blackpoolhibs]

I am not "scared of my own shadow" and I am open to discussion on the subject and, like others, I would need to know more.

You slate others for bringing up negative examples so I would ask where, in the UK, has this been a success?

I have no idea if it will work, i have no idea if this works anywhere else in the world. And i have not slated anyone in particular, just those who come on, and sheite their pants as soon as the subject about Hibs without STF starts?

It will happen some day, i wonder exactly what will happen when that day comes? It does not mean we will suddenly become the new Leeds United, or any new owner will be Mad Vlad 2, but when you ask the question, apparently that seems the only options we will get. :rolleyes:

[.Sean.]

I like the idea of fan ownership. I'd certainly put in a couple grand if the chance arose.

[Ozyhibby]

I guess the first step needs to be finding out if the current owners of the club are interested in selling to the fans. I have a feeling they would be receptive to the idea.
After that it will take a few committed fans to form a working group to explore all the different models for fan ownership that are out there before a consultation period where a model that suits Hibs is chosen. The offer should then be put to the fans. Even in these tough times I would expect a good take up among the Hibs support.
Pretty easy really. ;-)
Now all we need to do is get started.

[Hibs On Tour]

Farmer is out of pocket somewhere between £10m-£12m from his years of owning Hibs. Allowing for him to break even on his involvement with Hibs it would take a bid of around that to secure ownership. There is also the matter of the £6m debt (probably more) that we are carrying. To clear off both would take around £16m-£18m.




I strongly suspect we will end up as a Trust after Farmer (unless a sheik steps in between now and then)

OK, I'll go first. Do you have any hard-and-fast backing for this claim or is it - as I suspect - Lilian Gish?

IIRC Farmer lumped in something like £3m to save us and take control and hasn't put it any more than a £1m since in terms of actual investment. He acted as guarantor when we got the first of the new stands built [as at that stage the bank wouldn't lend otherwise] but as far as I'm aware he certainly hasn't put if anything like £10-12m into Hibs. I'm not for a minute claiming he is in Hibs for the money or as any form of investment for a return on, but based on the figures that others have posted up previously I would say that if Hibs were ever to be sold to someone he'd be likely to make a profit [as would RP who owns 10% IIRC]

If I'm wrong fair do's but I just think that claim is somewhat way out there and not backed up with the figures that I recall...

I do however agree with your final statement :greengrin

GGTTH :wink:

[Peevemor]

A useful report from 2003.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibs-reveal-full-extent-of-farmer-s-investment-1-657866

So farmer paid just under £3m to save the club, financed and built the 2 end stands through the holding company at a cost of £8m, then sold the lot back to the club for £2.5m.

That's right, he's invested next to nothing. :rolleyes:

[blackpoolhibs]

A useful report from 2003.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibs-reveal-full-extent-of-farmer-s-investment-1-657866

So farmer paid just under £3m to save the club, financed and built the 2 end stands through the holding company at a cost of £8m, then sold the lot back to the club for £2.5m.

That's right, he's invested next to nothing. :rolleyes:

Aye but he took all the £9m when he sold the car park.

[Peevemor]

Aye but he took all the £9m when he sold the car park.

IIRC, when the car park was sold he was repaid a couple of million quid that he'd loaned the club during previous year or 2, the rest went to the club which, at that time, had debt of a round £16m.

[MSK]

IIRC, when the car park was sold he was repaid a couple of million quid that he'd loaned the club during previous year or 2, the rest went to the club which, at that time, had debt of a round £16m.:agree: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibees-slash-debt-to-163-10m-1-1026881



http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibs-reveal-depth-of-farmer-s-investment-1-887467

[TrickyNicky]

:agree: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibees-slash-debt-to-163-10m-1-1026881



http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibs-reveal-depth-of-farmer-s-investment-1-887467


Is our debt approximately 5.9 million now?

[MSK]

Is our debt approximately 5.9 million now?Dont know mate, those reports were from 03/04 ..not sure what our present debt is though ..

[TrickyNicky]

Dont know mate, those reports were from 03/04 ..not sure what our present debt is though ..

Sorry, just found this.

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20111018/201011-financial-results-_2262950_2485466

[Nailrod]

:agree: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibees-slash-debt-to-163-10m-1-1026881



http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibs-reveal-depth-of-farmer-s-investment-1-887467

These reports about "how much STF has put into Hibs" are nearly ten years old. An awful lot of money has come and gone since then. I would appreciate an open and honest statement - covering both the club and the property company - about how much money he has put in, how much of that is in the form of loans, how much has been repaid, how much (if any) has been written off, what other payments have been made to him, and what the net balance is. I don't believe it's anything like £10-12 million in his favour.

[Peevemor]

These reports about "how much STF has put into Hibs" are nearly ten years old. An awful lot of money has come and gone since then. I would appreciate an open and honest statement - covering both the club and the property company - about how much money he has put in, how much of that is in the form of loans, how much has been repaid, how much (if any) has been written off, what other payments have been made to him, and what the net balance is. I don't believe it's anything like £10-12 million in his favour.

There's an honest, verified statement made every year when the accounts are published. The football club own the stadium and East Mains and service the corresponding mortgages. The accounts also show that STF has chipped in with (loaned) a couple of million quid from his own pocket to help things along as the club makes an operating loss (obviously because RP doesn't spend enough on players, or because his salary of £000,000.00 is too high).

[blackpoolhibs]

IIRC, when the car park was sold he was repaid a couple of million quid that he'd loaned the club during previous year or 2, the rest went to the club which, at that time, had debt of a round £16m.

Surprised i only got one. :wink:

[Lucius Apuleius]

Surprised i only got one. :wink:

:wink: Think people know.

[blackpoolhibs]

:wink: Think people know.

:greengrin Was a wee bit pished when i came in last night, perhaps it was not subtle enough? :wink:

[Peevemor]

Surprised i only got one. :wink:

I'm well aware of your stirring capabilities, however if you leave a post like that unanswered one here these days, it soon becomes FACT!

[Nailrod]

There's an honest, verified statement made every year when the accounts are published. The football club own the stadium and East Mains and service the corresponding mortgages. The accounts also show that STF has chipped in with (loaned) a couple of million quid from his own pocket to help things along as the club makes an operating loss (obviously because RP doesn't spend enough on players, or because his salary of £000,000.00 is too high).

I can't find the accounts, although the club's accounts would not in themselves provide a full answer to the information I was talking about. For example, they wouldn't show if STF paid for part of East Mains or the ground redevelopment out of his own pocket. Thanks for the info anyway, but it does leave me a little puzzled.

I had always understood that RP owned 10% of the football club, which was gifted to him by STF. In other words, perhaps unfairly on my part, that he owned 10% of several million pounds worth of valuable assets which were acquired or created without him ever having had to risk or invest a penny of his own money.

But in the above-referenced links, it says he owns 10% of the property company. If the football club now owns all the assets, and is servicing all the relevant debts, then the property company is basically just an empty shell. What would be the purpose or benefit of owning 10% of it? Unless the property company is some kind of managing agent for the mortgages, and they are being repaid through the property company.

By the way, you can put away your small violin about poor RP and his £000,000.00 salary. Given that at one point he was the highest-paid Chief Executive in Scottish football, he must have taken somewhere around a million quid out of Hibs in exchange for reducing us to a laughing stock on the football field. I'm sure he's not short of a bob or two, and if I was him I would be embarrassed to take any more money out of the club while it's in its current state. And at the same time I'm sure the 'pain' of serving as our unpaid chairman is eased by the opportunities it provides to be an SFA official and s**** around events like the European Championships being a 'very important football person'.

(Edit - the word 's.w.a.n.k.' isn't an obscenity. I wonder if our filter censors 'mi****' as well?)

(Later edit - yes it does. Great. A football forum where you can't use the word 'm.i.s.h.i.t.'

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm well aware of your stirring capabilities, however if you leave a post like that unanswered one here these days, it soon becomes FACT!

:greengrin I know, if you had not replied so quickly, i think i'd have even believed what i posted. :wink:

[Peevemor]

I can't find the accounts, although the club's accounts would not in themselves provide a full answer to the information I was talking about. For example, they wouldn't show if STF paid for part of East Mains or the ground redevelopment out of his own pocket. Thanks for the info anyway, but it does leave me a little puzzled.

I had always understood that RP owned 10% of the football club, which was gifted to him by STF. In other words, perhaps unfairly on my part, that he owned 10% of several million pounds worth of valuable assets which were acquired or created without him ever having had to risk or invest a penny of his own money.

But in the above-referenced links, it says he owns 10% of the property company. If the football club now owns all the assets, and is servicing all the relevant debts, then the property company is basically just an empty shell. What would be the purpose or benefit of owning 10% of it? Unless the property company is some kind of managing agent for the mortgages, and they are being repaid through the property company.

RP owns 10% of HFC Holdings, which in turn owns something like 95% of the football club. There's no mystery. The report from 2003 states that "ninety per cent of HFC Holdings is owned by Farmer; the other ten per cent by Petrie, who acquired his stake in 1997." The insinuation for me is that he bought his stake, rather than it being gifted to him.



By the way, you can put away your small violin about poor RP and his £000,000.00 salary. Given that at one point he was the highest-paid Chief Executive in Scottish football, he must have taken somewhere around a million quid out of Hibs in exchange for reducing us to a laughing stock on the football field. I'm sure he's not short of a bob or two, and if I was him I would be embarrassed to take any more money out of the club while it's in its current state. And at the same time I'm sure the 'pain' of serving as our unpaid chairman is eased by the opportunities it provides to be an SFA official and s**** around events like the European Championships being a 'very important football person'.

What violin? Despite very clear statements from the club and various substantiated press reports some people still come on here and post utter nonsense about all this stuff - through ignorance or malice? I don't know - maybe a bit of both.

[Kaiser1962]

OK, I'll go first. Do you have any hard-and-fast backing for this claim or is it - as I suspect - Lilian Gish?




Others have done most of it for me. Of the top of my head there is also the £3m paid for the club, the £8.75m for the end stands, the maintenance in the 90's of £125k a year which was met by holdings, the £2.5m he recieved for the ground has been fed back to the club as a means of balancing the losses, the latest being the £1.25m season before last. It was not a loan.

How much money do you think Hibs are worth with £6m debt, if Farmer is going to walk away having made money?



Despite very clear statements from the club and various substantiated press reports some people still come on here and post utter nonsense about all this stuff - through ignorance or malice? I don't know - maybe a bit of both.


Caversham Green did an excellent analysis of the sale of the Car Park but it still didnt stop the nonsense.

[Kaiser1962]

I had always understood that RP owned 10% of the football club, which was gifted to him by STF. In other words, perhaps unfairly on my part, that he owned 10% of several million pounds worth of valuable assets which were acquired or created without him ever having had to risk or invest a penny of his own money.

But in the above-referenced links, it says he owns 10% of the property company. If the football club now owns all the assets, and is servicing all the relevant debts, then the property company is basically just an empty shell. What would be the purpose or benefit of owning 10% of it? Unless the property company is some kind of managing agent for the mortgages, and they are being repaid through the property company.

'

Hibernian FC Holdings trades with no other companies than the football club. It was initially set up to protect the football club and the ground, which were seperated following administration.

[jonty]

By the way, you can put away your small violin about poor RP and his £000,000.00 salary. Given that at one point he was the highest-paid Chief Executive in Scottish football, he must have taken somewhere around a million quid out of Hibs in exchange for reducing us to a laughing stock on the football field. I'm sure he's not short of a bob or two, and if I was him I would be embarrassed to take any more money out of the club while it's in its current state. And at the same time I'm sure the 'pain' of serving as our unpaid chairman is eased by the opportunities it provides to be an SFA official and s**** around events like the European Championships being a 'very important football person'.


Actually, our league placing under RP has remained constant. With the exception of the last two years it's been far more stable than the preceding half dozen.
http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?234797-todays-games-(Dunfermline-3-0-Aberdeen)&p=3200814&viewfull=1#post3200814

Not that it's got anything to do with him. We were such a success before he arrived on the scene. :rolleyes:

[The Falcon]

What amuses me about these threads that drift onto STF's ownership is the almost forensic burden of proof that is required of those that post anything that shows STF/Petrie/Hibs in a positive light.

Yet when it's negative there appears to be an acceptance that a random conversation overheard in a pub is irrefutable evidence.

FWIW

[Caversham Green]

Right, here's a very broad summary of dealings with HFC Holdings Ltd which is to all intents and purposes 90% STF/10% RP. It's not intended to be 100% accurate but should give a reasonable overall picture.

Firstly, it's a holding company rather than a property company although it does own and rent the ticket office. The idea of a holding company is that it's a vehicle for owning majority shareholdings that makes shifting ownership easier and to some extent protects the ultimate owner.

The ordinary share capital of HFC is £3.35m, which is a fair indication of the total initial investment in the football club since that's what the capital raised would be used for. £1.75m of this was paid to the club for the stadium and car park, the rest presumably went to the previous owners of the club or was working capital.

Subsequently, 500,000 preference shares were issued to Morston Securities Ltd at a price of £10 each to finance the rebuilding of the North and South stands (HFC owned ER at the time). Morston are a STF company but not within the same group as the club. They sold the shares to a group company for £1 a couple of years ago.

HFC then sold ER back to the club for a cash price of £2.5m - there was also a share issue, but that was really just a paper transaction designed to get the full value of the stadium into the club.

HFC retained the car park and sold it in 2003 for around £9.3m. They used this to pay off a loan from STF of £3.7m, plus a bank loan and accrued interest and gave a loan to the club of £1.4m. At this time they also waived a loan to the club of £5.76m, but that rather evens itself out since it was out of the car park profits and the car park initially belonged to the club. Commercial interest was charged on most of the loans.

For the year ended 31 July 2011 HFC charged the club £24k rent plus £5k interest on the remaining loan of £250k. There's a further balance of £1.25m due by the club to HFC which is not classified as a loan but to all intents and purposes is one - it doesn't carry any interest. HFC made a loss of £72k for the year ended 31 July 2011, but £50k of that was consultancy costs to another group company (I don't know anything else about that and CBA finding out). The investment in the club is valued at £4.1m in the balance sheet, but that is not the market value. HFC had accumulated losses of just under £2m at 31 July and as far as I can see have never paid a dividend.

Not much more to say really.

[The Falcon]

So its cost him a lot of money, certainly a lot more than the purchase price which was rumoured to be around £300k, but was over ten times that amount?

And the club appear to benefitted from the sale of the Car Park twice , in 1991 and again in 2003?

I also think it is unlikely that he is going to walk away from this with any sort of financial gain. SPL clubs, as we are seeing, are pretty much worthless.



Right, here's a very broad summary of dealings with HFC Holdings Ltd which is to all intents and purposes 90% STF/10% RP. It's not intended to be 100% accurate but should give a reasonable overall picture.

Firstly, it's a holding company rather than a property company although it does own and rent the ticket office. The idea of a holding company is that it's a vehicle for owning majority shareholdings that makes shifting ownership easier and to some extent protects the ultimate owner.

The ordinary share capital of HFC is £3.35m, which is a fair indication of the total initial investment in the football club since that's what the capital raised would be used for. £1.75m of this was paid to the club for the stadium and car park, the rest presumably went to the previous owners of the club or was working capital.

Subsequently, 500,000 preference shares were issued to Morston Securities Ltd at a price of £10 each to finance the rebuilding of the North and South stands (HFC owned ER at the time). Morston are a STF company but not within the same group as the club. They sold the shares to a group company for £1 a couple of years ago.

HFC then sold ER back to the club for a cash price of £2.5m - there was also a share issue, but that was really just a paper transaction designed to get the full value of the stadium into the club.

HFC retained the car park and sold it in 2003 for around £9.3m. They used this to pay off a loan from STF of £3.7m, plus a bank loan and accrued interest and gave a loan to the club of £1.4m. At this time they also waived a loan to the club of £5.76m, but that rather evens itself out since it was out of the car park profits and the car park initially belonged to the club. Commercial interest was charged on most of the loans.

For the year ended 31 July 2011 HFC charged the club £24k rent plus £5k interest on the remaining loan of £250k. There's a further balance of £1.25m due by the club to HFC which is not classified as a loan but to all intents and purposes is one - it doesn't carry any interest. HFC made a loss of £72k for the year ended 31 July 2011, but £50k of that was consultancy costs to another group company (I don't know anything else about that and CBA finding out). The investment in the club is valued at £4.1m in the balance sheet, but that is not the market value. HFC had accumulated losses of just under £2m at 31 July and as far as I can see have never paid a dividend.

Not much more to say really.

[hibs0666]

There's quite a lot of it about (http://tiny.cc/fiuagw)

[allezsauzee]

How come we have lots of people willing to invest money in the club but everyone kicks up a stink about the ticket prices? If 'we the supporters' buy the club with a mind to seeing us put out a team that challenging at the top of the SPL, its going to take a lot more than us all throwing a few hundred pound at it on a 'one off basis'. We'd have to put money into the club every single year unless we start unearthing some more superstars from the youth set up. It's an expensive business nowadays and the new TV deal in England is almost certainly going to make it even more so in the coming years.