Facing up to our "deep-rooted problem"

[Pete]

The cup final loss was a sore one and like many others, I've been doing a lot of thinking about what needs to change so we can improve as a club as well as improving our derby record. People have talked about changing the club from top to bottom and talked about changing the "culture". If by culture you mean the drinking culture that has developed then yes, that needs to change but I think that's just a side issue. There's something deeper than that that needs sorted out.

I believe a football club should represent and share the same qualities of the area it's in and the people within that area. I look at Our ground, take in it's location and its surrounding areas and can't believe the irony. My Dad grew up in Leith and he tells me about how life was. I also know a bit about the history of Leith from reading up on it. Life was hard, gritty and uncompromising and so were a lot of the characters. Places like the docks and the surrounding industries were hard graft followed by a good jolly-up at the end of the week once you had your cash. There was a lot of poverty but there was also generosity. The pubs were a good laugh but if you were out of order they sorted you out. Bragging loudmouths would have been given short shrift, yet for decades, a football team representing bragging loudmouths has come into Leith from the West of Edinburgh and beat us up in our own back yard. Even when we had great teams they would match us because they wanted it as much. It seems that as our desire to win these games has dropped thiers has always been there. It got to the point that a team representing Leith were given the ultimate humiliation last week.

I think the only thing that will solve this is to really think about what we want and expect from a Hibs team. A lot of people will tell you they want a team with flair that wins games. That's fair enough and they point to teams like the famous five and the tornadoes as examples of this.
Teams like West Ham and Spurs are similar in that they want to see football played the "right way" and they can also use certain teams as a point of reference. Reputations spread and teams become known as "flair teams" and "defensive teams" etc...and even though we don't realise it we subconsciously think it. It's a fact that teams are associated with a certain playing style by what they have done in the past and what their fans will talk about and accept.
At Hibs we like to go on about How our teams in the past played with flair but what enabled them to do so? The answer is that they were hard, uncompromising and would run through brick walls! The famous five were solid and the men behind them were even more so. The flair came after the hard work was done. The tornadoes likewise. Look at the "flair" spurs and west ham teams and look at the effort they all put in.
Even on a personal level...George Best used to have lumps kicked out of him but still had the heart to carry on. You try pushing Lionel Messi off the ball. Watch someone try and outmuscle Cristiano Ronaldo.
The point is that you don't get to see the party tricks and flair without putting in the effort first...the effort and heart on the pitch and the graft off it to ensure you are as fit as you can be (which is more relevant in todays game).
The people of Leith were known for letting themselves go but you done no partying until you worked all week and had your money.

We've had a few player in the recent past who have all the skill in the world but haven't really put the effort in behind the scenes. Some of them have been taken to our hearts and some have been rejected but why have they felt they could get away with lacking effort and turning it on now and again? It might be that the personal motivation isn't there or it might be that the managers at the time didn't demand much graft from them.....so then why have the managers then felt it acceptable to play players like this....and why have they been employed if this is their philosophy?

This "flair" element from the past has stuck but the "hard graft" element has somehow been lost along the way. I think we're all guilty, from the men at the very top to the supporter on the street. We've forgotten that you can't have success and flamboyance without the effort first and have gradually made this type of attitude and player acceptable. It's resulted in players who think we'll love them and they'll fit in if they party hard and perform a bit of magic on the field. While it's had it's moments and exceptions(usually high quality,purchased teams), it's resulted in failure and spectacular prolonged failure against Hearts, who are probably the exact opposite of what we've become.

The cup final has made everyone realise something has to be done but I hope it isn't half ersed. It's all very well bringing in hungry, new players and eradicating weekend binge-drinking but what about ten years later? Will all these ideas be out the window and everyone will hark back to the tornadoes whilst once again forgetting why they played with such skill and flair?

We need to bring in a Collins style regime again and stick with it for the life of the club and never again lose the appreciation of the base for great teams. Fenlon should implement this at ground level and be approachable while Petrie should be the axe-wielder should anyone dare disobey...a sort of Collins situation in reverse.
Hard-work and getting to the absolute peak of physical fitness is what Hibernian should be all about and our players should be told this and if they dont like it this isn't the club for them. Rules on alcohol and standards of fitness should be explained and tested for regularly and failure to comply should result in sackings.
It is possible to have a squad of athletic players but it depends how hard you work. Being at the very peak of fitness should also help players regarding the mental side of the game. It gives you confidence to try things, you can take up position quicker and you know your team mate next to you can trusted. Far from producing robots it would actually make the team sharper, quicker and therefore cleverer.
There's no reason why teams cant train on some aspect of the game or physical fitness four times a week for seven hours. Even if it isn't all physical there's plenty more they could be doing like learning about the tactical side of the game (An AVB piece would keep them occupied for a week) or even learning about the history of the area hibs, and in turn they represent.

I just hope they have something like this up their sleeve but I fear that there's just going to be a change in playing staff...which isn't really all that's needed. We should be swaggering through to Tynecastle expecting to win and should have been doing it for decades, not the other way around.

[hiblander]

We´ve thought about the pro´s and con´s aswell (15 years) the Cup Final was only a smoke screen for this action...Petrie´s indecision will come and bight him if we have support from you.

This is the time Peter.

[The Falcon]

such skill and flair?

We need to bring in a Collins style regime again .

These two parts.

In a Collins style regime we would never have signed Sauzee or Latapy, for certain.

[Nailrod]

In a Collins style regime we would never have signed Sauzee or Latapy, for certain.

A few years back I was a qualified Player's Agent. I always used to get bombarded with CVs from desperate players from all over the globe. One day I got a phone call from a player who had seen that I could speak French. His name was Patrick Noubissie. He was in Scotland looking for a club. Any club.

I met him and he gave me his CV. Nominally he was on the books of Ardennes in the French second division. In reality he had been farmed out to a club so far down the pecking order I struggled to find the league it played in on the internet. He had absolutely nothing to offer. I thought "Seriously, this is hopeless. Stranraer might take a look at him."

I told him there was nothing I could do for him, apologised, and sent him on his way.

About eighteen months later, I picked up the paper and read that Collins had signed him for Hibs. I literally could not believe my eyes. Noubissie is the living embodiment of the pointless journeymen - who must by now number in their hundreds - who have appeared, transited Easter Road, and disappeared over the past five years, leaving barely a trace of their passage. Every penny we have squandered on these hundreds of nonentities is money wasted. They have nothing to contribute, and they have contributed nothing. Not a single one of them has ever made any noticeable difference to the club.

You're right. Under Collins, we would never have signed Franck Sauzee. We were too busy signing other quality French defender/midfielders like Patrick Noubissie. But I suspect your interpretation of the waves and currents behind what was going on may be a little awry.

[Don Giovanni]

A few years back I was a qualified Player's Agent. I always used to get bombarded with CVs from desperate players from all over the globe. One day I got a phone call from a player who had seen that I could speak French. His name was Patrick Noubissie. He was in Scotland looking for a club. Any club.

I met him and he gave me his CV. Nominally he was on the books of Ardennes in the French second division. In reality he had been farmed out to a club so far down the pecking order I struggled to find the league it played in on the internet. He had absolutely nothing to offer. I thought "Seriously, this is hopeless. Stranraer might take a look at him."

I told him there was nothing I could do for him, apologised, and sent him on his way.

About eighteen months later, I picked up the paper and read that Collins had signed him for Hibs. I literally could not believe my eyes. Noubissie is the living embodiment of the pointless journeymen - who must by now number in their hundreds - who have appeared, transited Easter Road, and disappeared over the past five years, leaving barely a trace of their passage. Every penny we have squandered on these hundreds of nonentities is money wasted. They have nothing to contribute, and they have contributed nothing. Not a single one of them has ever made any noticeable difference to the club.

You're right. Under Collins, we would never have signed Franck Sauzee. We were too busy signing other quality French defender/midfielders like Patrick Noubissie. But I suspect your interpretation of the waves and currents behind what was going on may be a little awry.

Patrick Noubissie, laterly of Kettering Town. When they visited Gateshead this season he only made the bench (although he does seem to have racked up a number of appearances according to Wikipedia). Not sure if he'll still have a contract there as Kettering finished bottom of the Conference Premier and are appealling for a CVA after faillingto pay players and racking up more than £1million debts.

Shocking that someone of his calibre should have got to pull on the famous green and white. When some people romanticise the Collins era they tend to forget the quality of most of his signings and the state he left our squad in.

Nailrod, you done the right thing being honest with Patrick. I wonder who the agent was that managed to dupe someone at Hibs into offering him a contract...?

[The Falcon]

My point was that Sauzee and Latapy were fond of a drink, in different social circumstances mind you, but nonetheless Franck like a nice wine to relax and Russell was fond of a night out.

Collins regime would not have tolerated either so would have basically excluded those "type" of players as possible signings. My point was nothing more complicated than that.

Your comments about Noubissie are intriguing as Collins had a good look at him before he signed him.



A few years back I was a qualified Player's Agent. I always used to get bombarded with CVs from desperate players from all over the globe. One day I got a phone call from a player who had seen that I could speak French. His name was Patrick Noubissie. He was in Scotland looking for a club. Any club.

I met him and he gave me his CV. Nominally he was on the books of Ardennes in the French second division. In reality he had been farmed out to a club so far down the pecking order I struggled to find the league it played in on the internet. He had absolutely nothing to offer. I thought "Seriously, this is hopeless. Stranraer might take a look at him."

I told him there was nothing I could do for him, apologised, and sent him on his way.

About eighteen months later, I picked up the paper and read that Collins had signed him for Hibs. I literally could not believe my eyes. Noubissie is the living embodiment of the pointless journeymen - who must by now number in their hundreds - who have appeared, transited Easter Road, and disappeared over the past five years, leaving barely a trace of their passage. Every penny we have squandered on these hundreds of nonentities is money wasted. They have nothing to contribute, and they have contributed nothing. Not a single one of them has ever made any noticeable difference to the club.

You're right. Under Collins, we would never have signed Franck Sauzee. We were too busy signing other quality French defender/midfielders like Patrick Noubissie. But I suspect your interpretation of the waves and currents behind what was going on may be a little awry.

[Hibercelona]

We need to think long and hard about what it means to play the "right way".

Does playing the "right way" really mean playing with flair and fancy tricks? or is it the difference between winning and losing?

For me, playing football the "right way" is the way that wins you the game. If you aren't winning games, then you're playing it the wrong way.

[--------]

My point was that Sauzee and Latapy were fond of a drink, in different social circumstances mind you, but nonetheless Franck like a nice wine to relax and Russell was fond of a night out.

Collins regime would not have tolerated either so would have basically excluded those "type" of players as possible signings. My point was nothing more complicated than that.

Your comments about Noubissie are intriguing as Collins had a good look at him before he signed him.


The truth is that Collins and his side-kick Toamy wouldn't have recognised a decent footballer if the guy had jumped up and bitten them on the bum. The money they wasted in bringing in stars like Noubissie, Gattoussie, O'Brien, Morais, Joneleit and so many, many others was a squandering the club's scarce resources. That, and their failures in managing the dressing-room that left Mixu with what he later described as a 'poisonous' atmosphere in the squad, an atmosphere he found himself unable to remedy.

Players like Sauzee and Latapy are now way beyond Hibs' reach. That doesn't mean Fenlon shouldn't be looking to sign good professional players who'll give professional performances match-day by match-day - that. after all, is what Motherwell, Dundee United, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone and the other SPL clubs seem to be able to do.

Mind you, I suspect that this summer, as in past summers, every agent with a total huddy on his books will already have been in contact with Rod Petrie offering that huddy to the softest touches in the SPL. I say Rod Petrie because I have no doubt at all that whatever the club's PR says, Petrie and Farmer are the ones who will ultimately decide who we sign and when. They've done that for the past five seasons; they appear happy with the arrangement, and happy with the results it's brought us.

But then THEY weren't sitting right across the stairway from the Hearts supporters on Saturday. Frankly, I'd be surprised if Farmer was even there.

There is a fundamental problem at Easter Road. there has been for some years now - since McLeish left and the big TV money ran out. I can understand that Farmer and Patrie are concerned to keep the club solvent and trading within its means; however it now seems utterly undeniable that in doing so they've ripped the heart and guts out of the club and that Hibs are no longer fit or able to compete with any team fielded by a club that takes the concept of competition to win even half seriously.

Collins talked a great game - pity he couldn't put his theories into practice. Mixu struggled with a squad at odds with itself, and was probably appointed two years too soon to cope with the situation. I suspect that today he would know exactly what to do with the bulk of the squad - take them out the back of the gym at East Mains and shoot them. Hughes was flawed - again, he talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk. But then - how much he knew about the Stokes deal, and how much effort the club (i.e. Farmer and Petrie) pout into keeping players Hughes specifically wanted to build his team around, like Jones and Bamba will forever remain a mystery. Calderwood himself should have been sacked as soon as he started talking to other clubs - the man's a disgrace the way he treated Hibs, but then the people who hold responsibility for the stewardship of the club should never have allowed him to get away with what he did. All through these managers' days, there in ther background was Petrie, and behind him, Farmer.

Now we have a manager who may or may not be up to the task that Hibs supporters have the right to expect - anyone paying £500 plus per year to attend a particular football team's matches has the right to expect application, commitment, and a minimum of professional expertise from players and management - and the same bosses and owner who have led them into the sorry state observable to all and sundry worldwide on BBC and SKY last Saturday afternoon are still in control.

Speaking only for myself, if the garage servicing my car repeatedly returned it to me in an unroadworthy condition, I'd pretty soon stop using that garage. If the supermarket I favoured sold sour milk, stale bread and rotten fruit, I'd go somewhere else. If my local cinema was dirty, noisy, and didn't show the films I wanted to see, I'd stop going there too. This is the phenomenon known as 'market forces'. It's also common sense on the part of the customer.

Farmer and Petrie have said more than once that football needs to operate on the same financial basis as other businesses. Well, if the present state of Hibernian Football Club is the result of their business acumen, I'm no longer sure I want to buy what they're selling.

They either need to sort themselves and the club they allegedly manage out NOW, or start taking active steps to find someone who can and will.

That means either Farmer moving on, or he and Petrie agreeing to part company, and someone with a lot more savvy than RP being brought in to sort out the club.

Because right now the sole common factor in the sorry tale of five years and more of decline and fall at Easter Road is the partnership in 'control' of the White Knight and his moustachio'd Sancho Panza.

[patlowe]

We need to think long and hard about what it means to play the "right way".

Does playing the "right way" really mean playing with flair and fancy tricks? or is it the difference between winning and losing?

For me, playing football the "right way" is the way that wins you the game. If you aren't winning games, then you're playing it the wrong way.

Agreed. Furthermore, a lot of Hibs fans talk about the "right way" as if we have been passing teams off the park over the years and been beaten by big ugly brutes that are some sort of disgrace to the game. I would suggest Hibs have pretty much been one of the worst "footballing" teams in the SPL since Mowbray, making the good football/winning dilemma irrelevant really.

[snooky]

....

But then THEY weren't sitting right across the stairway from the Hearts supporters on Saturday. Frankly, I'd be surprised if Farmer was even there.[/B]

......[/B]

He was - & wearing his Hibs scarf.
I saw him.

[--------]

He was - & wearing his Hibs scarf.
I saw him.



Then I'm duly surprised. I hope he enjoyed his afternoon more than I did.

[Keith_M]

Can we please put an end to this cr*p about 'flair' and the 'Hibs way'.


I've been attending Hibs matches for 33 years and have seen very little evidence of that over that time. When you mention players like Latapy and Sauzee, the memories of great displays from these type of players stand out because they have been the exception rather than the rule.

Speak to someone like Pat Stanton, or read his book on his best ever Hibs team, and you'll see that Flair is a total red-herring. What we need are players with guts, determination and the ability to do the strightforward things well.

There is no such thing as a 'Hibs Way', unless you count getting gubbed at Hampden by your nearest rivals by a four goal margin or being put out of Europe in the 2nd qualifying round by a team you previously had never heard of.

We need to create a 'Hibs Way' of actually winning matches, or knowing that the players gave their absolute best and bust a gut for the pride of the club and fans.

[Sammy7nil]

Can we please put an end to this cr*p about 'flair' and the 'Hibs way'.


I've been attending Hibs matches for 33 years and have seen very little evidence of that over that time. When you mention players like Latapy and Sauzee, the memories of great displays from these type of players stand out because they have been the exception rather than the rule.

Speak to someone like Pat Stanton, or read his book on his best ever Hibs team, and you'll see that Flair is a total red-herring. What we need are players with guts, determination and the ability to do the strightforward things well.

There is no such thing as a 'Hibs Way', unless you count getting gubbed at Hampden by your nearest rivals by a four goal margin or being put out of Europe in the 2nd qualifying round by a team you previously had never heard of.

We need to create a 'Hibs Way' of actually winning matches, or knowing that the players gave their absolute best and bust a gut for the pride of the club and fans.

I agree with tou I have been watching Hibs since the 60's and was lucky to see a few great teams, but your right since about 1975 we have had 6 or 7 good seasons with the rest being very disappointing and often embarrasing.

The Hibs way of the last 30 odd years is one disappoint after another lets just get a team out there that wins more than it loses then start to worry about flair and silky football because that aint gonna be on show anytime soon.

[truehibernian]

For me it's simple - football in the last 15 years has evolved all over the world, and sheer professionalism, athleticism and desire has overtaken Scotland, Hibs being part of that culture. Football players here, I don't think, see themselves as footballers/athletes - they see themselves as footballers/celebrities (on a local level). They seem ignorant to the fact that by forsaking a few years of the 'high life', they could get the head down, work hard, look after themselves, and earn good money (and success) from the game.

It's a societal problem that those in Scottish football have tolerated. Alcohol, smoking and gambling - all exists at Easter Road. All exist probably at all other SPL clubs.

It takes bottle and courage sadly for a manager to root this out and change mindsets and introduce discipline codes preventing it.

The good thing is that Fenlon has got rid of two of them that I think were the shining example of how not to be truly professional. All it takes is a couple of 'bad apples' to cause the rest to rot.

Hard work is needed, of course, but so is technique, creativity and skill. But what's needed in this Hibs team is strong leadership from goalkeeper, defence, centre mid to striker. We only had one (McPake) who seemed able to fill that role - we need another 3 or 4 similar characters in my opinion.

The fact that our players were in Grand Cru and Lulu after an embarrassing defeat in a cup final, hours before, says to everyone what's wrong. No pride in their appearance, club or in themselves.

[The Falcon]

Not a lot wrong with any of that TH.


For me it's simple - football in the last 15 years has evolved all over the world, and sheer professionalism, athleticism and desire has overtaken Scotland, Hibs being part of that culture. Football players here, I don't think, see themselves as footballers/athletes - they see themselves as footballers/celebrities (on a local level). They seem ignorant to the fact that by forsaking a few years of the 'high life', they could get the head down, work hard, look after themselves, and earn good money (and success) from the game.

It's a societal problem that those in Scottish football have tolerated. Alcohol, smoking and gambling - all exists at Easter Road. All exist probably at all other SPL clubs.

It takes bottle and courage sadly for a manager to root this out and change mindsets and introduce discipline codes preventing it.

The good thing is that Fenlon has got rid of two of them that I think were the shining example of how not to be truly professional. All it takes is a couple of 'bad apples' to cause the rest to rot.

Hard work is needed, of course, but so is technique, creativity and skill. But what's needed in this Hibs team is strong leadership from goalkeeper, defence, centre mid to striker. We only had one (McPake) who seemed able to fill that role - we need another 3 or 4 similar characters in my opinion.

The fact that our players were in Grand Cru and Lulu after an embarrassing defeat in a cup final, hours before, says to everyone what's wrong. No pride in their appearance, club or in themselves.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

We need to bring in players with the right mindset. If they can't do it for the jersey then at least do it for your own professional pride. For the youngsters, we need to weed out the boys that are using the status of being a Hibs player, to fund a lifestyle that seems to head in the direction of alcohol and trouble.