Realistically, what needs done to the squad this summer?

[The Sea-gull]

I know the quick answer is "loads" and I can see the arguments put forward by those who have suggested that we just get rid of the lot and try to sign McPake then build a squad from there but for me we have spend far too much money getting rid of duff players and managers in recent times that we might just have to keep some of the current lot who are in contract.

We do need a mass clearout though. I want as few as possible players who were part of last season and the cup final to remain as I honestly think it will be so difficult for them and the fans to forget their involvement that it could do them and the club long term harm having them around. If we go for the standard recognised squad of 23 (3 GKs, 4 full backs, 4 centre halves, 4 centre mids, 4 wide mids, 4 forwards):-

Keepers

Stack is gone. Brown lost 5 in a cup final to Hearts and is out of contract, for me he goes too. That leaves Paul Grant as the young keeper so we need to sign two more proven keepers.

Full Backs

Doherty is gone and no way back for him now. Kujabi should be paid off. He'll struggle to recover from his Hampden horror show. We won't forget it and neither will other clubs who will always target him as the weak link. Francomb may return and Booth for me should be pushed further forward. So we could need 3 or 4 full backs.

Centre Backs

McPake or a McPake-like signing is vital. Hanlon has done just about enough to stay on. O'Hanlon and Stephens not good enough but we may be stuck with one of them, probably O'Hanlon as he would cost more to free. So 2 centre backs required.

Central Midfield

Osbourne, Claros and Stevenson all have contracts and don't think we can afford to get rid of them all. Would cancel Claros's loan keep Ozzy and Lewis as back up and sign two quality central midfielders who could step straight into first XI.

Wide Midfield

Soares gone and hopefully never comes anywhere near ER again. If St J want Sproule, then let him go. Keep Wotherspoon and Booth as back up. Free, if we can afford to, Galbraith. Sign two quality wide midfielders who are ready for first XI.

Forwards

G O'C gone by the looks of it, if not, on balance I think he should go. Griffiths, maybe try and get him back but not 100% sure about him. No return for O'Donanvon. Give Doyle a bit more time and sign two more strikers, one of whom should be top quality.

Overall
That means, depending on the returns of McPake, Griffiths and Francomb and getting rid of Kujabi, O'Hanlon/Stephens, Claros and Galbraith we need around 12 new players for the squad. Sounds a lot but I really think that is the scale of the job. It doesn't mean that we have to sign 12 players though, there may be some youths ready to come into the first team squad and make more of an impact next season?

[Captain Trips]

I know the quick answer is "loads" and I can see the arguments put forward by those who have suggested that we just get rid of the lot and try to sign McPake then build a squad from there but for me we have spend far too much money getting rid of duff players and managers in recent times that we might just have to keep some of the current lot who are in contract.

We do need a mass clearout though. I want as few as possible players who were part of last season and the cup final to remain as I honestly think it will be so difficult for them and the fans to forget their involvement that it could do them and the club long term harm having them around. If we go for the standard recognised squad of 23 (3 GKs, 4 full backs, 4 centre halves, 4 centre mids, 4 wide mids, 4 forwards):-

Keepers

Stack is gone. Brown lost 5 in a cup final to Hearts and is out of contract, for me he goes too. That leaves Paul Grant as the young keeper so we need to sign two more proven keepers.

Full Backs

Doherty is gone and no way back for him now. Kujabi should be paid off. He'll struggle to recover from his Hampden horror show. We won't forget it and neither will other clubs who will always target him as the weak link. Francomb may return and Booth for me should be pushed further forward. So we could need 3 or 4 full backs.

Centre Backs

McPake or a McPake-like signing is vital. Hanlon has done just about enough to stay on. O'Hanlon and Stephens not good enough but we may be stuck with one of them, probably O'Hanlon as he would cost more to free. So 2 centre backs required.

Central Midfield

Osbourne, Claros and Stevenson all have contracts and don't think we can afford to get rid of them all. Would cancel Claros's loan keep Ozzy and Lewis as back up and sign two quality central midfielders who could step straight into first XI.

Wide Midfield

Soares gone and hopefully never comes anywhere near ER again. If St J want Sproule, then let him go. Keep Wotherspoon and Booth as back up. Free, if we can afford to, Galbraith. Sign two quality wide midfielders who are ready for first XI.

Forwards

G O'C gone by the looks of it, if not, on balance I think he should go. Griffiths, maybe try and get him back but not 100% sure about him. No return for O'Donanvon. Give Doyle a bit more time and sign two more strikers, one of whom should be top quality.

Overall
That means, depending on the returns of McPake, Griffiths and Francomb and getting rid of Kujabi, O'Hanlon/Stephens, Claros and Galbraith we need around 12 new players for the squad. Sounds a lot but I really think that is the scale of the job. It doesn't mean that we have to sign 12 players though, there may be some youths ready to come into the first team squad and make more of an impact next season?

I agree and this is exactly why I had been saying for 2yrs this loans thing is a disaster now and will end in disaster. You are 10+ players needed not for 1 season or 6mths but for the long term I am struggling to see where this can work and be funded no Manger can sign 12 players that all work out. The manager has been left a really difficult task, however he when looking in January showed me a real concern in his ability to get in good players, he clearly had an eye on next seson with Kujabi and Claros both of which should be showen the door.

The team is a total shambles and basically nothing was done during last season to fix it, PF is not the guy to fix this team for me. Somebody is going to have to find these players to come and they basically all need to work out.

[Hibercelona]

I agree and this is exactly why I had been saying for 2yrs this loans thing is a disaster now and will end in disaster. You are 10+ players needed not for 1 season or 6mths but for the long term I am struggling to see where this can work and be funded no Manger can sign 12 players that all work out. The manager has been left a really difficult task, however he when looking in January showed me a real concern in his ability to get in good players, he clearly had an eye on next seson with Kujabi and Claros both of which should be showen the door.

The team is a total shambles and basically nothing was done during last season to fix it, PF is not the guy to fix this team for me. Somebody is going to have to find these players to come and they basically all need to work out.

Who is the man for the job then?

If they let PF go, who would they bring in who we could be 100% certain of bringing in all the right players?

[SlickShoes]

I agree and this is exactly why I had been saying for 2yrs this loans thing is a disaster now and will end in disaster. You are 10+ players needed not for 1 season or 6mths but for the long term I am struggling to see where this can work and be funded no Manger can sign 12 players that all work out. The manager has been left a really difficult task, however he when looking in January showed me a real concern in his ability to get in good players, he clearly had an eye on next seson with Kujabi and Claros both of which should be showen the door.

The team is a total shambles and basically nothing was done during last season to fix it, PF is not the guy to fix this team for me. Somebody is going to have to find these players to come and they basically all need to work out.

What sort of players do you expect him to find in a January window? the only ones available are loans or players that bad or injured another club is letting them go.

I think it was a smart move to get short term loans in because now we arent stuck with them.

If PF isn't the man then who is? You are aware we are not a massive club and cannot attract or pay top quality managers, plus looking at the managerial merry go round here you would have to be off your head to apply for the hibs job, if we got rid of PF then he'd only have lasted 8 months. NO manager in there right mind is going to want to come to a club where you are likely to be sacked before you can even put a team together.

[The Sea-gull]

I agree and this is exactly why I had been saying for 2yrs this loans thing is a disaster now and will end in disaster. You are 10+ players needed not for 1 season or 6mths but for the long term I am struggling to see where this can work and be funded no Manger can sign 12 players that all work out. The manager has been left a really difficult task, however he when looking in January showed me a real concern in his ability to get in good players, he clearly had an eye on next seson with Kujabi and Claros both of which should be showen the door.

The team is a total shambles and basically nothing was done during last season to fix it, PF is not the guy to fix this team for me. Somebody is going to have to find these players to come and they basically all need to work out.

To be fair, January is not a great market for buying in unless you have cash and it was largely loans signed coz the board did not want to be saddled with contracts for players if we got relegated. The signings in January were made because it was felt that getting loans was a way of getting in quaility that we could not afford to buy at that time. If we had gone for more permanent/longer term deals at the time then we may have ended up with more Kujabi/Claros types and we would have gone down.

I have my reservations about Pat Fenlon, always have done even when he was appointed if you my check posts, but it is unfair to judge him on his ability to pick a player based on what he had to do in Jan when he was still finding his feet as a manager. Lets get behind him and see what he does with the "proper" transfer window. He definitely seems like he wants to be here and will work hard for it all, unlike his predecessor.

I'm guessing, given the strength of feeling and given that the board seems more aware of the opinions of the fans than ever before, we will see a couple of decent and well known SPL standard players signed early on in the window rather than us piling them all in at the last minute. I'm guessing it might be Johnny Hayes and Dean Shiels. As we need so many players, it is inevitable there will be some last minute 31st August type signings but I have a feeling this year that our recruitment will be spread right accross the summer.

[Captain Trips]

Who is the man for the job then?

If they let PF go, who would they bring in who we could be 100% certain of bringing in all the right players?

Do not know who is available?

No manager is 100% certain but with CC we saw a good snapshot when he came in and his signings that there were doubts, he got the chance to continue into a new season which was wrong.

Again we have had a snapshot of PF and again it IMO is very unimpressive all he has over CC is far more passion and that for me is cutting him slack wrongly. PF talks a great game and his team plays nothing like the talk. Have you thought all our managers were good in past and if not did you have an idea right away whom to replace them with. CC clearly wasnt working but not everyone had an idea on whom should come in doesnt mean they cant still think he is wrong man.

[Kato]

If they let PF go,

What makes you think they will let him go?

[Captain Trips]

What sort of players do you expect him to find in a January window? the only ones available are loans or players that bad or injured another club is letting them go.

I think it was a smart move to get short term loans in because now we arent stuck with them.

If PF isn't the man then who is? You are aware we are not a massive club and cannot attract or pay top quality managers, plus looking at the managerial merry go round here you would have to be off your head to apply for the hibs job, if we got rid of PF then he'd only have lasted 8 months. NO manager in there right mind is going to want to come to a club where you are likely to be sacked before you can even put a team together.

Better ones, this is getting made out to be some sort of mission impossible, it isnt he signed terrible players, CC got hounded for it but its ok for PF. You are allowed to put a team together based on things you do, what exactly has PF done to give you the confidence he can build a team, good players are not available yet McPake was, his only good piece of business, he signed players that appeared to do the very opposite of what he talks about. This is a massive job it was a massive job for CC and he failed, it is a bigger job for PF and he has shown nothing other than words to show he is answer.

Winning 5 SPL matches for me shows me nothing to think we have a guy whom is capable of the massive turnaround needed.

[The Sea-gull]

Better ones, this is getting made out to be some sort of mission impossible, it isnt he signed terrible players, CC got hounded for it but its ok for PF. You are allowed to put a team together based on things you do, what exactly has PF done to give you the confidence he can build a team, good players are not available yet McPake was, his only good piece of business, he signed players that appeared to do the very opposite of what he talks about. This is a massive job it was a massive job for CC and he failed, it is a bigger job for PF and he has shown nothing other than words to show he is answer.

Winning 5 SPL matches for me shows me nothing to think we have a guy whom is capable of the massive turnaround needed.

You are absolutely right, it doesn't and I'm not a PF fan but I'm not a detractor either. Lets just give him a chance and if by November time (say around the agm:wink:) things have not imporved then we will sack him. I know there is a sense of de ja vu about it all as it mirrors the situation we were in with CC last year with him having come off a bad end to the season but it seems PF wants the job and that is the main reason I think he should be given a chance to do the job and spend the summer re-building the squad. He will at least make a better attempt at it than the half arsed attempt made by CC last year while he was hoping he could work his ticket out back England.

If we are in another relegation battle next season, PF is not likely to survive the season so if comes to that lets hope changes are made at the right time but for now we have to stick by our man and give him the chance to do the difficult job he was chosen to do. Things have not improved much and we are still in dire straights but it was never going to be a quick fix. When PF got the job his worst case best case scenario (if you see what I mean) was to keep the team in the SPL and overhaul things in the summer. He has got us to that stage so we should at least let him have a proper go at the job.

[Kato]

When PF got the job his worst case best case scenario (if you see what I mean) was to keep the team in the SPL and overhaul things in the summer. He has got us to that stage so we should at least let him have a proper go at the job.

When the GJP took over he failed to keep us up, his first raft of signings were indifferent and it took him another two seasons to make Hibs competitive.

When Eddie Turnbull took over it also took him two seasons before we saw what was to become a great team.

I don't understand why Fenlon is being taken to task after one January window while we were in the direst of straits.

[Captain Trips]

When the GJP took over he failed to keep us up, his first raft of signings were indifferent and it took him another two seasons to make Hibs competitive.

When Eddie Turnbull took over it also took him two seasons before we saw what was to become a great team.

I don't understand why Fenlon is being taken to task after one January window while we were in the direst of straits.

Really? Firstly he had about 12 games to save us without much time to do anything and we were already bottom, showing some hope. He was tasked to win that league which he did. AM was given time as his short spell in SPL with us at first at least showed improvement in Duffy, in his next season he started well and we never looked back. CC and PF had a hell of a lot more time to move away from relegation so for me there task was not relegation avoidance but push up SPL both failed.

I do not rememebr how many points adrift we were when Eck took over.

[Kato]

Really? Firstly he had about 12 games to save us without much time to do anything and we were already bottom, showing some hope. He was tasked to win that league which he did. AM was given time as his short spell in SPL with us at first at least showed improvement in Duffy, in his next season he started well and we never looked back. CC and PF had a hell of a lot more time to move away from relegation so for me there task was not relegation avoidance but push up SPL both failed.

I do not rememebr how many points adrift we were when Eck took over.


He, by his own admission, has Hibs relegation on his CV. He was given a huge budget to win promotion and on our first season back up we were quite indifferent form wise, despite that budget.

So by my reckoning he took 2 and half seasons to make us competitive.

I don't even understand how you can argue with that and at the same time give PF pelters when he's been in the job one fifth of that time.

[Captain Trips]

He, by his own admission, has Hibs relegation on his CV. He was given a huge budget to win promotion and on our first season back up we were quite indifferent form wise, despite that budget.

So by my reckoning he took 2 and half seasons to make us competitive.

I don't even understand how you can argue with that and at the same time give PF pelters when he's been in the job one fifth of that time.

He has it on CV do you blame him we went down I do not, 2 seasons to get Hibs competative coming from a relegation is doing well, Am will have and did have to make adjustments from players ok for Div1 but maybe not for SPL I think he did very well in his first season up. A totally different set of Challenges for AM than what we have now. So based on what you have said CC should have been given time then?

[SlickShoes]

Really? Firstly he had about 12 games to save us without much time to do anything and we were already bottom, showing some hope. He was tasked to win that league which he did. AM was given time as his short spell in SPL with us at first at least showed improvement in Duffy, in his next season he started well and we never looked back. CC and PF had a hell of a lot more time to move away from relegation so for me there task was not relegation avoidance but push up SPL both failed.

I do not rememebr how many points adrift we were when Eck took over.

He came in January 1998, so had just under half a season.

In the first 18 games of season 97/98 we W3 L10 D5

Second 18 games of season 97/98 we W3 L8 D7

Not really a massive turnaround, I think people think there was a huge change because we beat hearts 2-1 at Easter Road, but other than that we done nothing to warrant staying up.

[Captain Trips]

He came in January 1998, so had just under half a season.

In the first 18 games of season 97/98 we W3 L10 D5

Second 18 games of season 97/98 we W3 L8 D7

Not really a massive turnaround, I think people think there was a huge change because we beat hearts 2-1 at Easter Road, but other than that we done nothing to warrant staying up.

I do not think that is correct. If it is then I blame AM as much as Duffy but I think it is not correct.

[SlickShoes]

I do not think that is correct.

Got the info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997%E2%80%9398_Scottish_Premier_Division

[Captain Trips]

Got the info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997%E2%80%9398_Scottish_Premier_Division

AM was never in charge for half that season, was closer to 10 -12 matches.

[Kato]

He has it on CV do you blame him we went down I do not,

He failed to beat Dundee Utd on the last day of the season. I don't blame him for that, he inherited problems which weren't solvable in such a short time. PF has inherited a far larger set of problems (5 seasons of rot) which were never going to be sorted in one January transfer window, do you blame him for that - even though he succeeded in keeping us up?


2 seasons to get Hibs competative coming from a relegation is doing well,

Two and half seasons.

So why not allow PF some time?



Am will have and did have to make adjustments from players ok for Div1 but maybe not for SPL I think he did very well in his first season up.

Getting beat 0-4 at home by Kilmarnock isn't doing well, but understandable as we were still building. There is no quick fix in football unless you have lots of cash.

Why don't you extend the understanding you allow AM to PF given the circumstances?



A totally different set of Challenges for AM than what we have now.

I agree. I think PF's job is far harder. He won't be given a fraction of the money AM spent (for every good signing he had at least three poor choices) and he doesn't have the luxury of instilling a winning mentality that AM was allowed in the 1st Division playing against crap with budgets a fraction we had.


So based on what you have said CC should have been given time then?

No. He made it clear he didn't want to be here, turned out not to be so good at managing as he thought he was - so should have been sacked/allowed to leave there and then. PF seems to be a steely wee **** who has a point to prove. For that he'll need time, something which you will allow that GJP but not the current manager. A complete lack of logic to your argument.

[The_Exile]

I honestly cannot believe what I'm reading, it's like a Football Manager thread, the guys only been in the job 8 months, he inhereted the worst Hibs team in living memory and people are having doubts about him? Seriously? I have forgotten more about football than some people will ever seem to know, it's utterly beyond a joke. How can I justify saying that? When someone expects a team to be brought together in a January transfer window and playing well and picking up points consistently, that a)proves you have no idea and b) makes you look rather foolish IMO.

Judge Fenlon in 2 or 3 years when it truly is his team and his way of playing, not after 8 months, 8 months for god sake!!!!

I'm nearly speechless.

[Kato]

I honestly cannot believe what I'm reading, it's like a Football Manager thread, the guys only been in the job 8 months, he inhereted the wrost Hibs team in living memory and people are having doubts about him? Seriously? I have forgotten more about football than some people will ever seem to know, it's utterly beyond a joke.

Judge Fenlon in 2 or 3 years when it truly is his team and his way of playing, not after 8 months, 8 months for god sake!!!!

I'm nearly speechless.


Well said.

I'm glad your just nearly speechless, and not fully speechless.

[The_Exile]

Well said.

I'm glad your just nearly speechless, and not fully speechless.

There are a lot of speechless moments when following Hibs mind you :greengrin

[dwlt]

AM was never in charge for half that season, was closer to 10 -12 matches.

Appointed on 11 February 1998, so was in charge for 12 games out of 36.

[Captain Trips]

Two and half seasons.

So why not allow PF some time?

Totally different situations, 2 1/2 years, firstly 1 of those he wasnt even in the League, yet he came out that league and has finish pretty well if I remember coreectly. PF,CC, Hughes, JC all totally different challenges to AM.


Getting beat 0-4 at home by Kilmarnock isn't doing well, but understandable as we were still building. There is no quick fix in football unless you have lots of cash.

Why don't you extend the understanding you allow AM to PF given the circumstances?

Who says no quick fix? You? There is seeing improvement and for me he came in while there were plenty of teams around us on similar points both 4/5 places above us, IMO he had time and if he had the ability then I think we should have been moving up, he was backed in window Dunfermline etc duid nothing yet we still battle with them until almost the end.


No. He made it clear he didn't want to be here, turned out not to be so good at managing as he thought he was - so should have been sacked/allowed to leave there and then. PF seems to be a steely wee **** who has a point to prove. For that he'll need time, something which you will allow that GJP but not the current manager. A complete lack of logic to your argument.

And this quote is where it all falls down, PF has a very similar record to CC but because he is a steely wee ++++ then thats alright then. I will give a manager time based on what I see until that point, CC deserved no more as his tactics and results did nothing to show anything, PFs is exactly in same position but lets give him time because he is awrite wee guy, what footballing wise can you bring to the table here that shows he is right? Never mind he is steely or he talks passiontly what has he brought to the table tactically and in transfer market? Stop comparing the jobs AM did to PF, AM had 10 -12 games so I am not going to say sack him as we were already just about down, he started winning in Div 1 right away so he never even needed to worry about time, I think you have a lack in logic comparing these 2 people and their jobs/situations when took over.

PF is a hope there was nothing in that 6 months to suggest he will be the man to sign 10-12 new players and have us winning not a thing was shown by him to do that. I hope all this comes right back and is rammed right up my erse when he does well.

[Captain Trips]

I honestly cannot believe what I'm reading, it's like a Football Manager thread, the guys only been in the job 8 months, he inhereted the worst Hibs team in living memory and people are having doubts about him? Seriously? I have forgotten more about football than some people will ever seem to know, it's utterly beyond a joke. How can I justify saying that? When someone expects a team to be brought together in a January transfer window and playing well and picking up points consistently, that a)proves you have no idea and b) makes you look rather foolish IMO.

Judge Fenlon in 2 or 3 years when it truly is his team and his way of playing, not after 8 months, 8 months for god sake!!!!

I'm nearly speechless.

Ok lets not look at what they do until 2/3 yrs, again did you offer that for CC in summer did you think he warranted another 18 months? Managers set benchmarks every so often, CC set his, a guy I would doubt will have us playing well in 2 yrs based on his 7/8 mths. So what did you think of CC after 7/8mths?

[The Sea-gull]

I honestly cannot believe what I'm reading, it's like a Football Manager thread, the guys only been in the job 8 months, he inhereted the worst Hibs team in living memory and people are having doubts about him? Seriously? I have forgotten more about football than some people will ever seem to know, it's utterly beyond a joke. How can I justify saying that? When someone expects a team to be brought together in a January transfer window and playing well and picking up points consistently, that a)proves you have no idea and b) makes you look rather foolish IMO.

Judge Fenlon in 2 or 3 years when it truly is his team and his way of playing, not after 8 months, 8 months for god sake!!!!

I'm nearly speechless.

Agree with that to a point but if we are deep in another relegation battle next season do we stick with him? Managers deserve time and Fenlon certainly deserves the summer transfer window and into next season to demonstrate that progress is being made but if we are sitting next winter where we were this winter how much time does he deserve? I think it is fine to say judge a man in two or three years but they have to make progress along the way.

[Captain Trips]

Agree with that to a point but if we are deep in another relegation battle next season do we stick with him? Managers deserve time and Fenlon certainly deserves the summer transfer window and into next season to demonstrate that progress is being made but if we are sitting next winter where we were this winter how much time does he deserve? I think it is fine to say judge a man in two or three years but they have to make progress along the way.

Tha t is my point mate, we gave CC this summer and it was costly and I for one didnt see what he was offering so CC should have been sacked in summer PF or AN other should have had summer to buy players. It did not happen we wasted money PF came in made IMO no difference even after a window that was hailed on here as backing him to hilt, he found 1 player worthy. We are were we were with CC last summer except PF seems interested.

[SlickShoes]

AM was never in charge for half that season, was closer to 10 -12 matches.

I never said he was, i said "close to half a season".

The results after he was here aren't exactly earth shattering anyway.

[The_Exile]

The one thing that seperates CC from PF is attitude. CC clearly did not want to be here, PF clearly does. If Pat is given a shed load of cash (relatively speaking), brings in plenty of players and we're still as woeful come Xmas, then granted, I'll be worried, but I don't believe that will happen given Pat's attitude and work ethic and the type of players I think he'll bring in.

[Captain Trips]

I honestly cannot believe what I'm reading, it's like a Football Manager thread, the guys only been in the job 8 months, he inhereted the worst Hibs team in living memory and people are having doubts about him? Seriously? I have forgotten more about football than some people will ever seem to know, it's utterly beyond a joke. How can I justify saying that? When someone expects a team to be brought together in a January transfer window and playing well and picking up points consistently, that a)proves you have no idea and b) makes you look rather foolish IMO.

Judge Fenlon in 2 or 3 years when it truly is his team and his way of playing, not after 8 months, 8 months for god sake!!!!

I'm nearly speechless.

So reading that, you would have kept CC?

[SlickShoes]

Tha t is my point mate, we gave CC this summer and it was costly and I for one didnt see what he was offering so CC should have been sacked in summer PF or AN other should have had summer to buy players. It did not happen we wasted money PF came in made IMO no difference even after a window that was hailed on here as backing him to hilt, he found 1 player worthy. We are were we were with CC last summer except PF seems interested.

The summer we gave CC though he was pretty much trying to leave hibs the entire time, we had a good run of results after that January window that put some distance between us and the bottom of the league too. That run of games CC won is what kept him in a job and people wanted to give him a chance.

Anyway, who is going to want to manage hibs if we get rid of pat fenlon? "Come to hibs and in 6-12months you will have no job".

[Swindonfan]

In years past a manager could sign players almost till the end of the season. Now with transfer windows mangers hands are tied when the arrive at non window times. Also no manager can come into a club and after a month of looking at the players state what the fans think and say, " this is the worst pile a ***** ive ever seen, they should all go" . As those same players still had a job to try to do of keeping the club in the league.

I know nothing about Fenlon but from what ive read about what he did in the league or Ireland. After the last game he looked like he was gonna cry. I genuinely think he was feeling it as bad as the fans. To make comments that he felt he couldnt believe how players could not get themselves up for a final suggests the players just dont have it in them.

This summer for me is one of the biggest in Hibs history now. EVERYONE connected with Hibs knows how **** the players are. The fans have known it for a long time. The manager there now is admitting it to all. And the board who probably knew but didnt want to admit it now have to realise they have to do something about it.

For me with the crowds Hibs could get if they had a half decent team, to be where they are now with the squad they have now is a disgrace and that disgrace lies with the board. You cant tell me Motherwell pay more in wages on the crowds they get. But they are in the champ league if but for one qualifiying round when they get beat by the champions of iceland, ( super market not country ).

My team swindon went from the biggest pile of poo ever to wear the shirt 12 months ago to champions. You can turn things around. I just hope Fenlon has a good scouting network. You may get gems from the irish league but i feel you should be looking into england and it maybe more who Fenlon knows in england as to what quality he can look to bring in.

Things do change around. We played Plymouth at Swindon this year with them fighting to stay in the football league. Its not many years ago i can remmber them coming to Swindon while top of the 1st division heading to the championship.

If there is a bright side its your still in the SPL with the hope that the board will see the light and hopefully allow the total rebuild you need so that next year you can kick ass and be proud again. As football fans we all live in hope.

[The_Exile]

So reading that, you would have kept CC?

No, you need to take it into context, it's not as black and white as that.

Calderwood had 13 months, and in that 13 months we got progressively worse and worse until we were probably the easiest team in the league to turn up and pick up 3 points from, we were utterly rotten. Calderwood inherited a team that got European football under Hughes and was in no way as bad as it was when Fenlon was appointed, sure we weren't great and we were on a downward spiral but not as bad as when he left.

Fenlon on the other hand has inherited a poisoned chalice, I don't think anyone will disagree that this is probably the worst Hibs team we can all remember, Fenlon is a good appointment by me, he has a winning mentality, he's used to winning, he demands hard work and you can tell he's well peeved with the attitude of the players, something I have never actually felt apart from perhaps Hughes. This summer is huge for Fenlon though, he screws up here and it could be a disaster. It all depends on the level of investment from the board, nwo I don't expect us to be spending big cash on transfer fee's, but IMO, we need to increase our level of contracts we are offering players, not hugely, but I'd slap a pretty big team win bonus in everyones contract :greengrin

[AllyT]

I am completely convinced that Pat Fenlon will have us in the top 6 next season. To even contemplate sacking another manager before he's had time to even start his job properly is absolutely crazy. Unbelievable :confused:

[Captain Trips]

No, you need to take it into context, it's not as black and white as that.

Calderwood had 13 months, and in that 13 months we got progressively worse and worse until we were probably the easiest team in the league to turn up and pick up 3 points from, we were utterly rotten. Calderwood inherited a team that got European football under Hughes and was in no way as bad as it was when Fenlon was appointed, sure we weren't great and we were on a downward spiral but not as bad as when he left.

Fenlon on the other hand has inherited a poisoned chalice, I don't think anyone will disagree that this is probably the worst Hibs team we can all remember, Fenlon is a good appointment by me, he has a winning mentality, he's used to winning, he demands hard work and you can tell he's well peeved with the attitude of the players, something I have never actually felt apart from perhaps Hughes. This summer is huge for Fenlon though, he screws up here and it could be a disaster. It all depends on the level of investment from the board, nwo I don't expect us to be spending big cash on transfer fee's, but IMO, we need to increase our level of contracts we are offering players, not hugely, but I'd slap a pretty big team win bonus in everyones contract :greengrin


You cannot say we need to give a manger 2/3 yrs but agree on sacking CC. CC was dreadful and yes we went nowehere under him, so for you and me he didnt tick the boxes required to be given time, so when you feel it is right a manager can be and maybe should be removed even after 6-12mths? So how can you use we need to give a manager time argument when when you feel its not right they should be removed?

I feel like you did under CC (as did I) that it is not working, never expected us to win 20 games in a row never expected 10 wins in a row but I expected more than what I saw, I expected more in January window than we got. So for me based on his 6mths in charge I feel he is a massive worry and I am taking all the constraints into account I still think we should have been a lot better mentaly and tactically.

You thought CC should be removed as he did not reach your expectations well before 2/3 yrs, PF is not reaching mine.

[Kato]

Two and half seasons.

So why not allow PF some time?

Totally different situations, 2 1/2 years, firstly 1 of those he wasnt even in the League, yet he came out that league and has finish pretty well if I remember coreectly. PF,CC, Hughes, JC all totally different challenges to AM.


Getting beat 0-4 at home by Kilmarnock isn't doing well, but understandable as we were still building. There is no quick fix in football unless you have lots of cash.

Why don't you extend the understanding you allow AM to PF given the circumstances?

Who says no quick fix? You? There is seeing improvement and for me he came in while there were plenty of teams around us on similar points both 4/5 places above us, IMO he had time and if he had the ability then I think we should have been moving up, he was backed in window Dunfermline etc duid nothing yet we still battle with them until almost the end.


No. He made it clear he didn't want to be here, turned out not to be so good at managing as he thought he was - so should have been sacked/allowed to leave there and then. PF seems to be a steely wee **** who has a point to prove. For that he'll need time, something which you will allow that GJP but not the current manager. A complete lack of logic to your argument.

And this quote is where it all falls down, PF has a very similar record to CC but because he is a steely wee ++++ then thats alright then. I will give a manager time based on what I see until that point, CC deserved no more as his tactics and results did nothing to show anything, PFs is exactly in same position but lets give him time because he is awrite wee guy, what footballing wise can you bring to the table here that shows he is right? Never mind he is steely or he talks passiontly what has he brought to the table tactically and in transfer market? Stop comparing the jobs AM did to PF, AM had 10 -12 games so I am not going to say sack him as we were already just about down, he started winning in Div 1 right away so he never even needed to worry about time, I think you have a lack in logic comparing these 2 people and their jobs/situations when took over.

PF is a hope there was nothing in that 6 months to suggest he will be the man to sign 10-12 new players and have us winning not a thing was shown by him to do that. I hope all this comes right back and is rammed right up my erse when he does well.


OK.

My argument doesn't fall down on that matter - PF wants to be here CC didn't - that is the difference, not their stats.

You'll have your opinion and I'll have mine.

One thing I will say. I didn't want CC as manager, or Yogi or Mixu for that matter. As I honestly think negative statements from fans can undermine the club (even just a little) I kept schtum until such time it was obvious they weren't up to the task or in CC's case clearly wanted out. I even stuck up for Yogi/Mixu/CC on here against my better judgement. Not every opinion people have has to be written up on the internet.

That might not be your way of doing things but I think slating the guy in charge after such a short time in the job is pretty poor TBH.

However your entitled to your opinion and entitled to express it any way you can.

Just to say I think you're out of order in doing so.

[The_Exile]

CC was a good appointment at the time, was part of a good backroom at Newcastle, had been an international player, good knowledge of the game etc, just turned very sour very quickly, there's not much you can do in that situation and you just know it won't work out. I just don't see how you can blame Fenlon for what happened in the run in there and be calling for his head, he basically bodged together a team to see us through and avoid the drop, job done, as the team he arrived to would have been relegated with a few games to spare.

This is where the Hibs job starts proper for Pat, next season will be tough, there's no way we'll make top 6 IMO, Fenlon knows this, the board knows this, I think the vast majority of the fans know this, we will be making progress though, we'll see more youth players than we did last year making appearanaces and getting game time, we'll hopefully get some quality players who yes, may have bad games, but will get up to speed with the game here and the culture if they're from further ashore, there is no manager in the world who could come in and achieve what some fans are looking for, impossible.

[Captain Trips]

OK.

My argument doesn't fall down on that matter - PF wants to be here CC didn't - that is the difference, not their stats.

You'll have your opinion and I'll have mine.

One thing I will say. I didn't want CC as manager, or Yogi or Mixu for that matter. As I honestly think negative statements from fans can undermine the club (even just a little) I kept schtum until such time it was obvious they weren't up to the task or in CC's case clearly wanted out. I even stuck up for Yogi/Mixu/CC on here against my better judgement. Not every opinion people have has to be written up on the internet.

That might not be your way of doing things but I think slating the guy in charge after such a short time in the job is pretty poor TBH.

However your entitled to your opinion and entitled to express it any way you can.

Just to say I think you're out of order in doing so.


No matter the difference you cannot say a manager needs 2/3 yrs and think CC sacking is ok as he didnt meet your thoughts and hopes. See Kato you speak when you think its ok to do so, you comment on mangers on here when "obvious" in your opinion they were not up to it, so you could be out of order also for slating folk when folk may have given them longer than you.

But it is not out of order for you when it is "obvious" they are failing? Maybe I think its as obvious for me with PF as you did when you kept schtum until you felt it was time to comment.

[lord bunberry]

CC was a good appointment at the time, was part of a good backroom at Newcastle, had been an international player, good knowledge of the game etc, just turned very sour very quickly, there's not much you can do in that situation and you just know it won't work out. I just don't see how you can blame Fenlon for what happened in the run in there and be calling for his head, he basically bodged together a team to see us through and avoid the drop, job done, as the team he arrived to would have been relegated with a few games to spare.

This is where the Hibs job starts proper for Pat, next season will be tough, there's no way we'll make top 6 IMO, Fenlon knows this, the board knows this, I think the vast majority of the fans know this, we will be making progress though, we'll see more youth players than we did last year making appearanaces and getting game time, we'll hopefully get some quality players who yes, may have bad games, but will get up to speed with the game here and the culture if they're from further ashore, there is no manager in the world who could come in and achieve what some fans are looking for, impossible.

Fenlon will have to make the top six or he will be sacked he will have to be very shrewd in the transfer market to make sure this happens. Like it or not there is no way the majority of our support will accept another mediocre season. For what its worth I think fenlon will get us into the top six and prove to be a decent manager

[Captain Trips]

CC was a good appointment at the time, was part of a good backroom at Newcastle, had been an international player, good knowledge of the game etc, just turned very sour very quickly, there's not much you can do in that situation and you just know it won't work out. I just don't see how you can blame Fenlon for what happened in the run in there and be calling for his head, he basically bodged together a team to see us through and avoid the drop, job done, as the team he arrived to would have been relegated with a few games to spare.

This is where the Hibs job starts proper for Pat, next season will be tough, there's no way we'll make top 6 IMO, Fenlon knows this, the board knows this, I think the vast majority of the fans know this, we will be making progress though, we'll see more youth players than we did last year making appearanaces and getting game time, we'll hopefully get some quality players who yes, may have bad games, but will get up to speed with the game here and the culture if they're from further ashore, there is no manager in the world who could come in and achieve what some fans are looking for, impossible.

We are miles apart totally then on our hopes for the club, I think top 6 is acheivable if the right people are signed and manager is right, if you think the board think top 6 is not there for making then I totally disagree.

[Kato]

No matter the difference you cannot say a manager needs 2/3 yrs and think CC sacking is ok as he didnt meet your thoughts and hopes.

Nothing to do my thoughts and hopes at all.

As I said all along I thought he should have been sacked/allowed to leave because he made it plain HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE. Nothing to do with giving him the same amount of time or his results or his stats compared to AM or PF or MP, it's because HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE.

Got that now? I've written it biggy letters (TWICE) in the hope that it sticks in your cranium and you don't come back at me (again) comparing apples and oranges. Capiche?


See Kato you speak when you think its ok to do so, you comment on mangers on here when "obvious" in your opinion they were not up to it, so you could be out of order also for slating folk when folk may have given them longer than you.

But it is not out of order for you when it is "obvious" they are failing? Maybe I think its as obvious for me with PF as you did when you kept schtum until you felt it was time to comment.

Fair do's. Why not carry carping and moaning about everything PF does and every player he signs or loses out on and every tactical move he tries or every tactical move he tries and the players fail to carry out.

I'm not trying to stop you (I don't believe I can as you've been at it since January) I was only giving my opinion on your opinion.

Go ahead. Recommence with your whinging and griping. You might be right.

[Kato]

We are miles apart totally then on our hopes for the club, I think top 6 is acheivable if the right people are signed and manager is right, if you think the board think top 6 is not there for making then I totally disagree.

Well the Ginger Judas Prick managed to get us to 6th on his first season back up so hopefully PF can equal or better that.

[Captain Trips]

Nothing to do my thoughts and hopes at all.

As I said all along I thought he should have been sacked/allowed to leave because he made it plain HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE. Nothing to do with giving him the same amount of time or his results or his stats compared to AM or PF or MP, it's because HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE.

Got that now? I've written it biggy letters (TWICE) in the hope that it sticks in your cranium and you don't come back at me (again) comparing apples and oranges. Capiche?



Fair do's. Why not carry carping and moaning about everything PF does and every player he signs or loses out on and every tactical move he tries or every tactical move he tries and the players fail to carry out.

I'm not trying to stop you (I don't believe I can as you've been at it since January) I was only giving my opinion on your opinion.

Go ahead. Recommence with your whinging and griping. You might be right.

Do not make those decisions then. your part in bold up top you put there twice yeah I saw that it is irrelevant you didnt want him so was ok when he did something that reached your limit. So you thought he was fine then before he showed little commitment in summer, you thought he was ok?

I will carry on it is a messageboard for the purpose of discussing different views on the club.

[Kato]

Do not make those decisions then. your part in bold up top you put there twice yeah I saw that it is irrelevant you didnt want him so was ok when he did something that reached your limit.


Aye. Barry. Whatever.

[The_Exile]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be proved to be talking utter garbage and he gets us into top 6. In today's climate though, I don't think it's possible to sign a team of players over a couple of months and have them playing and gelling well together, no doubt there IS quality players out there up for grabs, wage structure is a stumbling block, and the way the club is perceived by some at the moment might not entice a player with other options.

Hopefully this time next year we're all pals again and looking out our passports :thumbsup: