Hibs - SPL champions 2004/05?

[H18sry]

Taken from another forum with Rangers and Celtic both having paid EBT's in 2004/5


2004/5, Rangers won the league with 93 points. Celtic were on 92. Hibs and Aberdeen were 3rd and 4th separated by GD on 61 points.

Celtic lost 6 and drew 2. Dunno which games Juninho played in, but the points deduction would have to be somewhere between 42 and 20 points. ( Best and worst cases). Looks to me like Hibs might just have a case to be retrospectively awarded the title for 2004/5.

Well done Hibs!
Championee's championee's :party::party:





















































:greengrin

[Kenny1875]

What are these EBTs all about? I've been hearing about them and even searched up on them but didn't really understand what they do. Also, well done the Hibees on winning the 04/05 SPL!

[Leishy1995]

I'm sorry, but if we finished 3rd, how would a points deduction to Celtic in second give us the point? Or have I missed something?

[Kenny1875]

I'm sorry, but if we finished 3rd, how would a points deduction to Celtic in second give us the point? Or have I missed something?

Because Rangers are also cheating *****

[H18sry]

I'm sorry, but if we finished 3rd, how would a points deduction to Celtic in second give us the point? Or have I missed something?

Read the OP :greengrin both Rangers and Celtic paid EBT's so any points gained whilst players were receiving under hand payments should be forfeited :wink:

[lapsedhibee]

Don't think we'll get the league in 2005. If only one Celtc player was involved and Celtc paid the tax as soon as they realised the EBT was dodgy, then it's a very different situation than at The Big Hoose.

We might get the 1993 League Cup though if the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2115140/Rangers-crisis-David-Murray-wrong--Hugh-Adam.html#ixzz1vlu42cJ3) is correct in reporting that HunFC used EBTs in the 1990s, before the period that the current investigations cover.

[ScottB]

Don't think we'll get the league in 2005. If only one Celtc player was involved and Celtc paid the tax as soon as they realised the EBT was dodgy, then it's a very different situation than at The Big Hoose.

We might get the 1993 League Cup though if the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2115140/Rangers-crisis-David-Murray-wrong--Hugh-Adam.html#ixzz1vlu42cJ3) is correct in reporting that HunFC used EBTs in the 1990s, before the period that the current investigations cover.

I believe they hadn't declared it prior to them abandoning it and paying up, so the 3-0 defeat in every game Juninho was in the squad should apply.


Wiki says he played in 14 games that season in the SPL, so possibly a deduction of 42 points. I believe this even effects games if he was on the bench and didn't come on, so maybe more. So in theory, yes we could well be retrospective champions, depending on how the changing of the results effects things, if we took more points off the Old Firm than the Dons did, we'd end up second...

[Just Alf]

What are these EBTs all about? I've been hearing about them and even searched up on them but didn't really understand what they do. Also, well done the Hibees on winning the 04/05 SPL!

Really simply...

you're coming to paint ma hoose.

we agree £1000 and as an aside agree to split the payment

I pay you £500 --- you get it and pay tax

I then pay £500 into a "trust" ( tax deductable?)

you then apply for a loan of £500 .... it's a loan so no tax :-)

nothing is ever put in place to repay the loan.

so far the above was a tax loophole that existed for some time.

The KILLER element is the side letters..... if there's anything at all that indicates that we agreed the £1000 as the price and not the £500 and/or anything that indicates the loan would never be re-paid then someone's going to be getting jail time :greengrin

something like that.... was explained to me by a finance guy but we'd both had umpteen pints :hyper:

[Leishy1995]

I'm taking this as Hibs league champions 04/05 and that's it.

[Just Alf]

Taken from another forum with Rangers and Celtic both having paid EBT's in 2004/5


2004/5, Rangers won the league with 93 points. Celtic were on 92. Hibs and Aberdeen were 3rd and 4th separated by GD on 61 points.

Celtic lost 6 and drew 2. Dunno which games Juninho played in, but the points deduction would have to be somewhere between 42 and 20 points. ( Best and worst cases). Looks to me like Hibs might just have a case to be retrospectively awarded the title for 2004/5.

Well done Hibs!
Championee's championee's :party::party:

:greengrin

Hmm.... when you take it a wee bit further..... the top 2 teams share approx 50% of the prize pot (26% & 24% or similar) and the rest on average get 5% each (scale is summat like 10% down to 3% or so?)...... so any team that was illegally excluded from 1st or 2nd is due significant recompense!........ I wonder if we (all the various teams) can sue Rangers for it?! :devil:

[lapsedhibee]

Hmm.... when you take it a wee bit further..... the top 2 teams share approx 50% of the prize pot (26% & 24% or similar) and the rest on average get 5% each (scale is summat like 10% down to 3% or so?)...... so any team that was illegally excluded from 1st or 2nd is due significant recompense!........ I wonder if we (all the various teams) can sue Rangers for it?! :devil:

:tsk tsk: All trivial compared with what we'd have made on our run to the 2006 CL final.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Juninho last played for Celtic in the league on 22 Jan 2005. He played in 15 league games, during which Celtic won 13, drew 1 (2-2 with Hibs) and lost 1 (2-3 v Aberdeen). This ignores the games where he was an unused sub. That would take 40 points off their total, taking them well below Hibs and Aberdeen. Assuming that all of Rangers' games involved EBT players, they would be reduced to nil points for the whole season.

Hibs 2-2 Celtic 19/9/2004 (Juninho played) = +2 points. Hibs also lost 4 times to Rangers that season = + 12 points. 61 + 2 + 12 = 75 points total.

Celtic 2-3 Aberdeen 27/10/2004 = no difference. Aberdeen 0-1 Celtic 16/1/2005 = +3 points. Aberdeen drew once and lost 3 times to Rangers that season = +11 points. 61 + 3 + 11 = 75 points total.

So basically it would depend on the goal difference (as adjusted to making each score 3-0, rather than the actual results).

[lapsedhibee]

So basically it would depend on the goal difference (as adjusted to making each score 3-0, rather than the actual results).

And? :I'm waiti

[DarrenSQH]

Whens the merchandise out?

I cant wait.

[Mikey]

Whens the merchandise out?

I cant wait.

You missed it. They never ordered enough stock in and it was crap anyway :greengrin

[StevieC]

I believe they hadn't declared it prior to them abandoning it and paying up, so the 3-0 defeat in every game Juninho was in the squad should apply.

I'm not convinced that each game is automatically treated as a 3-0 defeat, it's possible that it's only the points gained that are removed (and awarded to opposition if required).

Either way though, it probably hinges on whether an unused sub on a team line is an infringement.

If it is, then we win the league .. if it isn't, then Aberdeen win ..

The downside is that it's referee Craig Thomson that gets to decide .. :rolleyes:

[sambajustice]

Its the 94/95 season you need to be looking at...

[Leishy1995]

Since the SPL was formed only one team outside the Old Firm has finished top. HIBERNIAN!

[Part/Time Supporter]

And? :I'm waiti

Hibs base goal difference was 64-57 (+7), Aberdeen's was 44-39 (+5)

Awarding 3-0 wins against Celtic makes it 65-55 (+10) and 47-36 (+11)

Awarding 3-0 wins against Rangers... Aberdeen drew 0-0, lost 5-0, 2-1 and 3-1. 4 x 3-0 victories improves their GD to 57-26 (+31)

... Hibs lost 1-0 twice, 3-0 and 4-1. 4 x 3-0 victories improves their GD to 76-46 (+30).

So Aberdeen would be champions by one goal. But as Stevie points out, that only counts the games where Juninho played. He was an unused sub in several other games, which would affect the calculation if those were included.

[Leishy1995]

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/what-if-celtic-accept-wrong-doing-re-juninhos-ebt-aberdeen-spl-winners-2005/ discussing the same thing :-(

[Macaroon]

So it all comes down to whether Juninho being an unused substitute counts as playing an EBT? If it does then Hibs are champions, and if it doesn't then Dons are champions? Am I grasping that right?

[Centre Hawf]

I always wondered why we ran on the field that day against Rangers. I guess it was just people who were in the know.:greengrin

[Eyrie]

I'd obviously prefer it to be us, but anyone other than Hearts or the Ugly Sisters gaining trophies is a positive result for Scottish football.

[lapsedhibee]

Hibs base goal difference was 64-57 (+7), Aberdeen's was 44-39 (+5)

Awarding 3-0 wins against Celtic makes it 65-55 (+10) and 47-36 (+11)

Awarding 3-0 wins against Rangers... Aberdeen drew 0-0, lost 5-0, 2-1 and 3-1. 4 x 3-0 victories improves their GD to 57-26 (+31)

... Hibs lost 1-0 twice, 3-0 and 4-1. 4 x 3-0 victories improves their GD to 76-46 (+30).

So Aberdeen would be champions by one goal. But as Stevie points out, that only counts the games where Juninho played. He was an unused sub in several other games, which would affect the calculation if those were included.

Cheers for that. :thumbsup:

Only relevant if he was unused sub in matches against Hibs/Dons though?

Anyway I'm for giving the title to the Sheep after our craven performance on the last day. That was hunderwhelming to say the least.

[Leishy1995]

What would happen if we got the title?

[Macaroon]

What would happen if we got the title?

What I'm interested in is what would need to happen in order for us to win the title. If it is even possible in the first place

[Leishy1995]

What I'm interested in is what would need to happen in order for us to win the title. If it is even possible in the first place

Well that is essential!

[hibee92]

Mowbray must go.

[Macaroon]

Well that is essential!

Explain..

[Leishy1995]

Explain..


We need to know the details before we celebrate the title...

[Macaroon]

We need to know the details before we celebrate the title...

Aw crap.. For some reason my exhausted brain read your message as "Well that is sensational!"

Then, to take the pish even further. It convinced me that it was a sarcastic comment. I'm sorry haha.

I get you now :faf:

[Leishy1995]

Aw crap.. For some reason my exhausted brain read your message as "Well that is sensational!"

Then, to take the pish even further. It convinced me that it was a sarcastic comment. I'm sorry haha.

I get you now :faf:

ahh I was wondering if I was coming accross as blunt!

[Macaroon]

ahh I was wondering if I was coming accross as blunt!

Hahaha seriously I think my head just does this to me for a laugh. I genuinely read it 4 maybe 5 times over various visits and still believed it was having a pop at me.

Who cares anyway, Champioooonees :partyhibb :party: :singing:

[Leishy1995]

Hahaha seriously I think my head just does this to me for a laugh. I genuinely read it 4 maybe 5 times over various visits and still believed it was having a pop at me.

Who cares anyway, Champioooonees :partyhibb :party: :singing:

Only hibs could celebrate a league title the same season the finish 11th!

[Hibercelona]

Only hibs could celebrate a league title the same season the finish 11th!

We're the Chuck Norris of the SPL. We're aloud to defy all logic because we're Hibs. :aok:

[Leishy1995]

We're the Chuck Norris of the SPL. We're aloud to defy all logic because we're Hibs. :aok:

title winners are title winners because hibs allow them to be so.

[hiblander]

Rangers just die please just go away into a corner and die you lousy sons of bitches !

[Macaroon]

title winners are title winners because hibs allow them to be so.

Aye, I've heard that Petrie can turn toast back into bread. :panic:

[Leishy1995]

Aye, I've heard that Petrie can turn toast back into bread. :panic:
Sir Tom can convert Tesco's own coco snaps into coco pops.

[hiblander]

Sir Tom can convert Tesco's own coco snaps into coco pops.

Duff n Phelps new Kellogs

Fruit N Fibre

You Hoo Hello Junior League Auchinlech Talnot (Kellogs Frosties) can i play you every week !!


:)

[Leishy1995]

Duff n Phelps new Kellogs

Fruit N Fibre

You Hoo Hello Junior League Auchinlech Talnot (Kellogs Frosties) can i play you every week !!


:)

Mate you've lost me...

[Macaroon]

Mate you've lost me...

I don't think he's the brightest....

[Peevemor]

I don't think he's the brightest....

You're being kind there.

[Leishy1995]

I don't think he's the brightest....

That's the greatest gibberish post I've ever seen.

[Macaroon]

You're being kind there.

:hilarious

[spike220]

What would happen if we got the title?

Well I guess Fenlon and the remaining three players in our squad could take the wee green bus out for victory parade, our something like that:dunno:

[Leishy1995]

Well I guess Fenlon and the remaining three players in our squad could take the wee green bus out for victory parade, our something like that:dunno:

Every player from the squad should be recalled for an open top bus parade through Leith and princes street. Along with the manager.
I'm not even sure if I can remember the squad. But Wikipedia has our answers!