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Saturdays Hero
22-05-2012, 04:27 PM
So in hindsight what team would we have played on Saturday with the players we have,any major changes,does Wotherspoon start (gets unwarranted grief on here IMHO) does Sproule start ?? What other options do we have,as before the game the team that started was prob 85% of what most on here would have choose.

PaulSmith
22-05-2012, 04:31 PM
5-4-1, seriously and kept it as defensive and boring for as long as possible

Saturdays Hero
22-05-2012, 04:34 PM
5-4-1, seriously and kept it as defensive and boring for as long as possible

I agree with that,but prior to the game I would prob have been disappointed if that's what the team formation was gonna be.

SRHibs
22-05-2012, 04:36 PM
Would've played Scotland-esque - 0 up front.

Badabing
22-05-2012, 04:40 PM
In my opinion the main problem was that Fenlon, with some justification felt he had to play Griffiths and O'Connor when in fact (no pun intended) there was only room for one of them and what we needed was 5 in the middle of the park. Would it have changed the result? Probably not but the only way I saw us winning was a backs to the wall defensive performance and us scoring the type of goal we did.

SneakersO'Toole
22-05-2012, 04:42 PM
Would not have mattered. They (the entire team) were evidently not up for the fight so what difference would have tactics made?

Billy Whizz
22-05-2012, 04:44 PM
Would've played Scotland-esque - 0 up front.

Me too and a different ref, might have kept it down to 4!

Saturdays Hero
22-05-2012, 04:47 PM
Would not have mattered. They (the entire team) were evidently not up for the fight so what difference would have tactics made?

That's a fair enough point,exposes the dross we currently have as a squad,though I do believe Doyle cares & gives 100%.

theonlywayisup
22-05-2012, 04:49 PM
5-4-1, seriously and kept it as defensive and boring for as long as possible

Possibly, but I would have gone 4-5-1 but not with Osbourne, Claros and Soares in midfield. We needed a different type of player to dig deep and they are not the right guys.

Saturdays Hero
22-05-2012, 04:53 PM
Possibly, but I would have gone 4-5-1 but not with Osbourne, Claros and Soares in midfield. We needed a different type of player to dig deep and they are not the right guys.

Just curious,so who put of the current squad would you have played instead of the 3 mentioned ?? Spoony,Doyle,Sproule, dunno who else Murray,O'Donovan.

blackpoolhibs
22-05-2012, 04:57 PM
5-4-1, seriously and kept it as defensive and boring for as long as possible

There was a thread on what we thought the team would be, and i thought Wotherspoon should have made the bench instead of Sproule, that was the only change to the team and subs i got wrong.

I'd have played 4-5-1 With Griffiths on his own and Wotherspoon on the right and Stevenson the left.

Keeping the game as tight as possible for as long as possible, was the way to go. Its how all inferior teams set up in finals, just as Chelsea.

We might not have won, but personally i think that system would have worked a lot better?

Hibercelona
22-05-2012, 04:59 PM
I'd have picked 11 people from the crowd.

Leishy1995
22-05-2012, 05:11 PM
I'd have picked 11 people from the crowd.
11 from the crowd would have had better chemistry and fight.

AlbertK86
22-05-2012, 06:06 PM
Think just about everybody on net picked the team pat did last week on the build up.

He also changed it in first half. No his fault the players were absolutely crap

blackpoolhibs
22-05-2012, 06:08 PM
Think just about everybody on net picked the team pat did last week on the build up.

He also changed it in first half. No his fault the players were absolutely crap

I picked the team he picked last week, as did many others. The question was the team for the final, not what team would you pick for the final?

carnoustiehibee
22-05-2012, 06:16 PM
Where's Stevens disappeared to? I might've gave him a man marking roll on black.

S.sct
22-05-2012, 08:12 PM
I saw Keith Wright, Mikey Weir, Paul Kane and Pat Stanton at the game all would have been better than what we witnessed. Really it wouldn't have mattered we all know how poor this team was and Thomson was the referee. I somehow convinced myself we could even would win but didn't account for a lack of desire on top of lack of pace, intellegence and basic ability.

Scouse Hibee
22-05-2012, 08:24 PM
With hindsight why the **** did I even think that the utter ***** I have watched this season had any chance what so ever of beating hearts. I must be deluded.

Keywords that spring to mind of things we have lacked all season: EFFORT,DESIRE.PASSION,ABILITY,MINDSET,TACTICS,PRID E,PROFESSIONALISM,SKILL,BELIEF,FITNESS.

Wotherspiniesta
22-05-2012, 08:29 PM
Brilliant.

We're tall tactical geniuses after the game aren't we?

"I'd have gone 5-4-1"

"Well I'd have left Griffiths or O'Connor out"

The sad fact of the matter is, Fenlon played the same team 90% of us wouls have picked.

The team never turned up and it seems like half of this board want Fenlon out the door because of it.

Sorry to tell you lads, you're all fired aswell.

PaulSmith
22-05-2012, 08:37 PM
Brillaint.

We're tall tactical geniuses after the game aren't we?

"I'd have gone 5-4-1"

"Well I'd have left Griffiths or O'Connor out"

The sad fact of the matter is, Fenlon played the same team 90% of us wouls have picked.

The team never turned up and it seems like half of this board want Fenlon out the door because of it.

Sorry to tell you lads, you're all fired aswell.

And you completely missed the word 'hindsight' from the title and the fact that the team formation and tactics didn't work.

I couldn't really give a toss but you'll find I said exactly what I posted to my mate on road down from Aberdeen.

JeMeSouviens
22-05-2012, 08:39 PM
Brilliant.

We're tall tactical geniuses after the game aren't we?

"I'd have gone 5-4-1"

"Well I'd have left Griffiths or O'Connor out"

The sad fact of the matter is, Fenlon played the same team 90% of us wouls have picked.

The team never turned up and it seems like half of this board want Fenlon out the door because of it.

Sorry to tell you lads, you're all fired aswell.

If he'd left out Griffiths or O'Connor and we'd got gubbed he'd have been crucified.

PeterboroHibee
22-05-2012, 08:40 PM
Would rather have had Francomb in instead of Kujabi but other than that, that was more or less the 11 Fenlon has been picking. He didnt really have any more options, could maybe have gone 451 but we dont really have anybody capable of playing on the wing.

Theres no point in looking back though, and especially not pointing the blame at the manager. Not saying he shouldnt take some responsibility but we all saw how our players looked in terms of attitude and effort compared to the Hearts players and that was the real difference!

leithsansiro
22-05-2012, 09:01 PM
I saw Keith Wright, Mikey Weir, Paul Kane and Pat Stanton at the game all would have been better than what we witnessed. Really it wouldn't have mattered we all know how poor this team was and Thomson was the referee. I somehow convinced myself we could even would win but didn't account for a lack of desire on top of lack of pace, intellegence and basic ability.

I went in behind Steven Fletcher on Saturday. Damn, I ought to have given him my jersey...

Wotherspiniesta
22-05-2012, 09:05 PM
And you completely missed the word 'hindsight' from the title and the fact that the team formation and tactics didn't work.

I couldn't really give a toss but you'll find I said exactly what I posted to my mate on road down from Aberdeen.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? :agree:

The fact is though, people were and have been using team selection to beat Fenlon with a stick since Saturday.

Baldy Foghorn
22-05-2012, 10:33 PM
Not sure I would have made many changes to the starting 11, unfortunately for Pat Fenlon, not one of the 11 put in a performance worthy of such an occasion......

blackpoolhibs
22-05-2012, 10:41 PM
Brilliant.

We're tall tactical geniuses after the game aren't we?

"I'd have gone 5-4-1"

"Well I'd have left Griffiths or O'Connor out"

The sad fact of the matter is, Fenlon played the same team 90% of us wouls have picked.

The team never turned up and it seems like half of this board want Fenlon out the door because of it.

Sorry to tell you lads, you're all fired aswell.

No hindsight here, i said it to all my mates before the game we should have started with a 4-5-1.

I'd have dropped O'Connor and been slaughtered for it, but i did say it before the game. There was even a case for playing Griffiths and O'Connor with Griffiths wide on the left, but O'Conner couldn't trap a bag of cement, thats why i'd have played Griffith up top on his own.

As i said earlier, most teams who are up against a supposedly better side flood the midfield, what makes you think we should have done it differently?

This season alone, Kilmarnock and Chelsea have shown just how well that system can work against much better sides.

Shrekko
22-05-2012, 10:49 PM
No hindsight here, i said it to all my mates before the game we should have started with a 4-5-1.

I'd have dropped O'Connor and been slaughtered for it, but i did say it before the game. There was even a case for playing Griffiths and O'Connor with Griffiths wide on the left, but O'Conner couldn't trap a bag of cement, thats why i'd have played Griffith up top on his own.

As i said earlier, most teams who are up against a supposedly better side flood the midfield, what makes you think we should have done it differently?

This season alone, Kilmarnock and Chelsea have shown just how well that system can work against much better sides.

We don't have any strikers who can play the lone striker role. Griffiths backs off ever time the balls played to him with his back to the goal, usually resulting in defenders just nipping in front of him. His link up play is not great either- he's an off the cuff type player.

For 1 up front you need a big lump who can outmuscle his opponent and keep control of the ball till support arrives. A good version would be someone like Drogba but even someone like Nade has been effective at SPL level despite his lack of goals.

blackpoolhibs
22-05-2012, 10:55 PM
We don't have any strikers who can play the lone striker role. Griffiths backs off ever time the balls played to him with his back to the goal, usually resulting in defenders just nipping in front of him. His link up play is not great either- he's an off the cuff type player.

For 1 up front you need a big lump who can outmuscle his opponent and keep control of the ball till support arrives. A good version would be someone like Drogba but even someone like Nade has been effective at SPL level despite his lack of goals.

Yip i agree to an extent, and our big lump couldn't do the job, thats why i would have played Griffiths.

We'd have needed to support him quickly with the wide men, and balls would have needed to be played in behind them or wide so we got up the pitch to support him.

Its not ideal i know, but surrendering the midfield was suicidal imo, and only contributed to us getting humped.

We would still probably lost, but maybe just maybe we'd have stayed in the game a lot longer and given them a bit more to think of as the game went on?

Shrekko
22-05-2012, 11:06 PM
Yip i agree to an extent, and our big lump couldn't do the job, thats why i would have played Griffiths.

We'd have needed to support him quickly with the wide men, and balls would have needed to be played in behind them or wide so we got up the pitch to support him.

Its not ideal i know, but surrendering the midfield was suicidal imo, and only contributed to us getting humped.

We would still probably lost, but maybe just maybe we'd have stayed in the game a lot longer and given them a bit more to think of as the game went on?
I totally agree in principle with what you're saying, although obviously if you do lose an early goal when you're set up like that then the whole plan goes out out the window.

I also feel that most strikers SHOULD be able to play the lone role considering a wee guy like Kenny Miller can make a decent attempt at it. Unfortunately I also think our available strikers lacked the bravery and intelligence required.

Other problem is that we had a midfield where none of them were capable of supporting or linking with the strikers. We dont have anyone quick enough, skilful enough or smart enough.
Soares has obvious ability but doesn't get involved enough, the rest are 'nothing' types- no obvious talents, oh wait a minute, except for allegedly 'giving 100%'.

LeithBoozy
22-05-2012, 11:27 PM
I thought Doyle was our top man against the Pars, yet no sign of him at Inverness. What is it they say about always play the man in form?, still its always easy in hindsight. :rolleyes:

basehibby
23-05-2012, 12:16 AM
In retrospect a 4-5-1 MIGHT have been better - but then again we didn't get much joy out of that formation earlier in the season from what I recall. The best results and performances of the later part of the season had Griffiths and O'Connor up front and I was happy enough to see that combination take the field at Hamden TBH and couldn't argue with the rest of the lineup either. Sadly a lot of them simply didn't turn up which is what cooked our goose more than anything else.

Hibby 2005
23-05-2012, 12:51 AM
In retrospect a 4-5-1 MIGHT have been better - but then again we didn't get much joy out of that formation earlier in the season from what I recall. The best results and performances of the later part of the season had Griffiths and O'Connor up front and I was happy enough to see that combination take the field at Hamden TBH and couldn't argue with the rest of the lineup either. Sadly a lot of them simply didn't turn up which is what cooked our goose more than anything else.

It's always easy after the event BUT during the event it was obvious that Kujabi, at fault for the 1st goal, was toiling and if Fenlon had hooked him at HT we might have been a bit happier right now.

I also honestly couldn't understand why Francombe sat on the bench for most of the game either.

Albion Hibs
23-05-2012, 07:54 AM
Fact of the matter is he got his team wrong for the cup final. The format and the players he picked. That is a pretty big mistake for the biggest game in our clubs history. In addition to that the worst offenders in my view, Kujabi, Docherty and Claros are all his signings, does not really bode well for his ability to pick a team, formation and sign players.

sparkiedelpaco7
23-05-2012, 10:10 AM
Brown

Doherty
McPake
Hanlon
Francomb

Murray (To Man Mark Skacel)

Soares
Claros
Wotherspoon
Griffiths

Doyle

Hibercelona
24-05-2012, 11:46 PM
I've put a few diagrams together to highlight the way I think we should have played. Please go easy on the pictures as they're only a very basic way of showing what i'm talking about. :wink:

Over the past few years, one of our main problems against Hearts is the fact that they've had a midfield and we simply haven't. This is why they always play 5 in midfield against us, with 1 attacking midfielder slotting in just behind the striker.

Now the reason this is so effective against us is because we're far too quick in possession. As soon as we get hold of the ball we attempt to counter attack and of course, we're flooded out in midfield, then we're badly punished for it.

Here is the starting formations from both sides on saturday. (feel free to have a wee chuckle and get it out of the way :wink:)

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1603/36146707.png

Now the thing I noticed straight from the kick off was that we seemed desperate to grab an early goal. As soon as we we're in possession, we'd push forward and inevitably be crowded out in midfield. This was extremely careless of us and what we should have been doing was passing the ball around the back and inviting Hearts on to us like so.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8742/65351133.png

This would have forced them to commit midfielders foward. Hearts would have wanted an early goal to relieve some pressure, so naturally they would have committed players forward in an attempt to win back possession.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7740/97020497.png

This of course leaves Hearts slack in midfield and makes them prone to a dangerious counter attack.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2817/75343616.png

Now again, I know my msPaint diagrams are utter p**h :wink:

But I think the idea would have been right and would have given us a far better chance on the day.

Now I know its too late for all of this now. But shouldn't we be looking at this sort of tactic against them for next season?

We need to get our thinking caps on. :I'm waiti

Macaroon
24-05-2012, 11:49 PM
The tactic for next season should be to kick them into submission and make them surrender the 3 points. :devil:

Hibercelona
24-05-2012, 11:53 PM
The tactic for next season should be to kick them into submission and make them surrender the 3 points. :devil:

Well yes, that would be a rather effective tactic if we were looking to get 3 players sent off in every derby. :nerd:

6 if Craig Thomson is in charge. :fuming:

hiblander
25-05-2012, 12:49 AM
Hibs were **** hot for 5 minutes before the half time whistle....if it had gone on another 5 minutes we would have scored again..


,,,we did not...we came out got a Penalty decision against us and a straight red even though it was a second booking....That effectively killed the game after 45 seconds of the fiiing second half...simple.


It was hard but fck i was not there i watched it in Vienna as my father and 2 older brothers suffered the same**** from the Semi 4 years ago, needless to say they stayed to the end, as we really hate hearts and got our moneys worth,,,,Hibs will come again but it will take time....


on a good note....Hibs are actually a bigger supported team than the Thuds, Yes i know, i have traveled !

cheers !

Lucius Apuleius
25-05-2012, 05:17 AM
hibs were **** hot for 5 minutes before the half time whistle....if it had gone on another 5 minutes we would have scored again..


,,,we did not...we came out got a penalty decision against us and a straight red even though it was a second booking....that effectively killed the game after 45 seconds of the fiiing second half...simple.


It was hard but fck i was not there i watched it in vienna as my father and 2 older brothers suffered the same**** from the semi 4 years ago, needless to say they stayed to the end, as we really hate hearts and got our moneys worth,,,,hibs will come again but it will take time....


On a good note....hibs are actually a bigger supported team than the thuds, yes i know, i have traveled !

Cheers !

nurse!!!!!!!!!

PeeJay
25-05-2012, 06:22 AM
I've put a few diagrams together to highlight the way I think we should have played. Please go easy on the pictures as they're only a very basic way of showing what i'm talking about. :wink:

Now again, I know my msPaint diagrams are utter p**h :wink:

But I think the idea would have been right and would have given us a far better chance on the day.

Now I know its too late for all of this now. But shouldn't we be looking at this sort of tactic against them for next season?

We need to get our thinking caps on. :I'm waiti

:top marksfor effort and your name is surely in the hat when Fenlon "eventually" goes :greengrin

PS: Not suggesting Fenlon should go ...