Build a team for the next 3 years in the summer...

[matty_f]

I think the Board and Fenlon have got some major work ahead of them in the summer, as Nutsy has to start the team building process in earnest. Loan deals serve a purpose, but the lack of stability that the club has had since Mowbray left has sent us spinning on a massive downward trajectory, which if it doesn't relegate us this season, will do next season, unless addressed in the summer.

The board have backed each of the last however many managers with as much funding as they can, however a combination of spreading the money too thinly and failing to find a few gems in the signings. The churning of the squad is a failing policy (I use the word policy though I don't for a second think that anyone at the club planned to have this turnover of staff, so maybe it's not the right word to use).

IMHO, the Board have a duty to Fenlon, the fans, and the club to allow the manager the support and funds to start building for the next 3 years minimum. We need to look at longer contracts for better players.

I would suggest the Board use a bit of forward thinking and look at using the budget for this year and next, this summer. Naturally that will reduce what's available to Fenlon next January and next summer, but if he spends the money properly he'll not need to be making more than a couple of signings between the summer and the following season anyway.

Fenlon needs winners at the club, he needs a core group of influential players who will be at the club long enough to form a bond with the club, to set standards at the training ground and on the pitch, to bring through and mentor the youth players, and to establish themselves in their respective positions as a recognisable and regular first team.

I genuinely long for the days when we have an undramatic transfer window, where we don't go into it desperate to shift those players that we welcomed optimistically just a few months earlier and replace them with other hopefuls who we'll turn on in a few months time.

On the face of it, Hibs are a hugely fragmented club at the moment. So much seems wrong and I think most, if not all, of it stems from the fact that we have not built a team with any real longevity in it. We need to stop this 'we'll be a shop window for a season' nonsense and stop being a home for folk keen to be seen to be making an effort to get their careers back on track.

Without proper investment in the summer, we are going to be watching much of the same next year. Fenlon will have to fill as many gaps as he can with whatever budget he's afforded, and we'll be replacing the out of favour ones before too long, Fenlon - if he's lucky - will be replacing his own signings, however history shows that the approach of spreading the budget too thinly is more likely to cost Fenlon his job.

The board might worry if we can afford to spend, the question they need to consider is whether they can afford not to. It's surely more expensive doing what we've been doing the last few years than it would have been to have spent more on better and been able to keep them.

[Tollhouse Hibee]

Great post.

[Beefster]

Fair points, Matty, but you made a similar plea before January and the Board mainly signed short-term loans. We can plead all we want but the club have shown time and time again that they won't/can't invest in long-term contracts for the team unless it's a youth player. They've also shown that they're incapable of learning the lessons of previous failures.

There is always the danger that, if the Board use up future money and leave us unable to afford new players in January/next summer, if Fenlon 'does a Hughes 2010/Calderwood 2011' then we're absolutely ****ed and can't afford to change under-performing players.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Where there is always merit in looking to the long term situation, the very nature of football means that sometimes the " one game at a time", cliche is not so much a throw away phrase as an accurate assessment. We are living week by week just now and looking long term leaves the board and manager open to accusations of being in denial.

[HFC 0-7]

IMO, I dont think the board have been backing the managers properly after running so many contracts down at the same time. In a situation like that where you end up with no core to build around you cant replace the players with a normal Hibs budget, we should have spent more money than we did to get players in, we should have paid more fees. I know there will be people coming on here that think the board are the best slating me for saying we should put the club into debt etc etc, but it was clear that replacing so many players with a small budget was not going to work and we have probably ended up paying the amount of money we should have spent through losses.

We are going to have to spend a decent amount of money to get back on track as, again, at the end of the season there will be many players away through end of contracts or loans spell. I hear what people are saying in the loan deals serve a purpose but loans should compliment the contracted players not the other way around.

So yes, we definately should spend a couple of budgets worth this summer on getting a team together but in all honesty I dont know if Fenlon should or will be the one doing it. At present he has a worse record than the previous manager and one that has distrubing similarities to Jim Duffy, in fact fenlons league record is worse than Jim Duffy. With that in mind I am not sure that I would want someone with a record like that spending 2 or 3 transfer window budgets at once.

[blackpoolhibs]

The problem we have what you say Matty is money, where is that going to come from? We can only spend what we bring in, and sad as it is we wont be bringing in anywhere near enough to do as you say.

Unless we borrow again, and if we do it will have to be added to what we lost last year and this. How long before those millions add up to unsustainable levels of debt?

As has ben pointed out by many, we are run by accountants, can anyone see them letting this happen again?

[GordonHFC]

We need to be realistic though when we look at the loan signing issue.

We signed GO'C on a 12 month deal but we got Claros on an 18 month loan. Most players are not going to make long term committments these days and Hibs don't do particularly long term contracts (not with decent players anyway) so until we do we will be in a permanent state of rebuilding.

[Beefster]

We need to be realistic though when we look at the loan signing issue.

We signed GO'C on a 12 month deal but we got Claros on an 18 month loan. Most players are not going to make long term committments these days and Hibs don't do particularly long term contracts (not with decent players anyway) so until we do we will be in a permanent state of rebuilding.

Claros is on a 12 month loan.

[GordonHFC]

Claros is on a 12 month loan.

Apologies Beefster, thought it was 18. But either way there is no difference from a permanent 12 month signing and a 12 month loan. Contracts are so short these days it doesnt make that much difference.

[Frogga]

I think if we're going to be successful then we have to adopt a model similar to that of Motherwell and Dundee United where we are more patient with the John Rankins and Colin Nish's of this world. I mean they have around 8 fairly average SPL players with a couple of gems who tend to move on each Summer and this leads to a steady flow of cash with the added bonus of consistency in the team.

[Captain Trips]

I agree with the OP. The myth that no teams really have players on longer deals is not accurate. I pointed out that Motherwell when played us had lots of players on 2yr deals or had already had a few years under belt.

What are we expecting to happen in 2/3 years? as I have seen this as a timescale needed for manager. He will only get that time if he signs players for that length of time as if things continue we could be on our 4th 5th different team by that time and we will not really have acheived anything. People have to earn money at club and find good players for the long term if not we will be discussing our new manager sooner than later.

[keithkeith]

The problem we have what you say Matty is money, where is that going to come from? We can only spend what we bring in, and sad as it is we wont be bringing in anywhere near enough to do as you say.

Unless we borrow again, and if we do it will have to be added to what we lost last year and this. How long before those millions add up to unsustainable levels of debt?

As has ben pointed out by many, we are run by accountants, can anyone see them letting this happen again?

Not all accountants are penny-pinching misery guts! Some accountants can look at the merits of controlled speculating. I've been involved in football clubs before (as an accountant) and it's plain to see that the finances off the park and directly linked to the product on the park. If you do not have a diverse income stream which dilutes the need to rely on the success of the 11 guys on the pitch, you need to get the product correct.

I've seen first hand where Clubs have scrimped and saved to pay off debt, keep the cash flow managed and minimised the investment on the park. It doesn't work, in my opinion. The product quality dwindles and the "stable" income streams go with it. If a Club's supporters feel they are not being entertained, or at least watching a competitive Club where the players look like they are trying / believe / have a pride in the Club, then they will walk. It starts with the season tickets reducing, then the walk-up gates go, the hospitality sales drop and the £1 or £2 in our pocket that we might give to a 50:50 draw or a pie / badge from Club shop stays in the pocket.

It's a gamble - an extra £x in the Budget can be the difference to stop that income dwindling and it pays for itself, but it cannot just be thrown in haphazardly. It needs to be backed by investment in a decent scouting and coaching network and any gems need to be given the long-term contract, rather than the policy of every player on a long-term deal. They need to be earned, unless we believe (from the outset) that they are stars, as getting rid of them (if and) when it goes wrong is costly.

I agree with the OP - investment is needed. Now is the time for the business people to show their true value to the Club and use their financial expertise to structure a deal that brings in the money to fund this or work out a deal that allows us to pay over time - in a way we can afford. That is the balancing act, but we do need to spend. Even I, as an accountant, can see that!

:aok:

[Cropley10]

But it's like Groundhog Day isn't it? Every year, every window we say the same things. Managers come and go, annually nowadays, they sign players, players are moved on or marginalised and still the same failings exist.

I hope to goodness I'm wrong but PF looks out of his depth. Players have come and looked half-decent, within a few weeks they're playing to the same standard of the players they replaced. Take Osbourne - I'd say he's now playing to the standard of Vic Palsson. Doherty looked great when he made his debut for us. A few weeks later, he's 'slow', against Celtc he couldn't find a team-mate. Anyhow he's on loan and needn't worry as he'll be back at Wolves in June. Same with Soares, doesn't look like he cares less - and why should he,even though his 'relegation record' is a worry.

I can't remember the last decent, sensible, player we signed. I don't trust this Board, or even this manager to find or sign anyone frankly. Sadly after the Killie Cup game and even the nil all v St Mirren I thought we were making progress; but, there's no hiding the fact that once again Hearts tanked us and he's managed to win two League games since he joined. Doyle will be another non-event, a SFL 2 player.

Things aren't getting better, they're getting worse. We're not even a laughing stock - we're just everyone's favourite team; an easy three points - one if you're unlucky.

[BEEJ]

But it's like Groundhog Day isn't it? Every year, every window we say the same things. Managers come and go, annually nowadays, they sign players, players are moved on or marginalised and still the same failings exist.

I hope to goodness I'm wrong but PF looks out of his depth. Players have come and looked half-decent, within a few weeks they're playing to the same standard of the players they replaced. Take Osbourne - I'd say he's now playing to the standard of Vic Palsson. Doherty looked great when he made his debut for us. A few weeks later, he's 'slow', against Celtc he couldn't find a team-mate. Anyhow he's on loan and needn't worry as he'll be back at Wolves in June. Same with Soares, doesn't look like he cares less - and why should he,even though his 'relegation record' is a worry.

I can't remember the last decent, sensible, player we signed. I don't trust this Board, or even this manager to find or sign anyone frankly. Sadly after the Killie Cup game and even the nil all v St Mirren I thought we were making progress; but, there's no hiding the fact that once again Hearts tanked us and he's managed to win two League games since he joined. Doyle will be another non-event, a SFL 2 player.

Things aren't getting better, they're getting worse. We're not even a laughing stock - we're just everyone's favourite team; an easy three points - one if you're unlucky.
I'd love to be able to find flaws in your argument here. But sadly you're 100% correct.

[blackpoolhibs]

The problem we have what you say Matty is money, where is that going to come from? We can only spend what we bring in, and sad as it is we wont be bringing in anywhere near enough to do as you say.

Unless we borrow again, and if we do it will have to be added to what we lost last year and this. How long before those millions add up to unsustainable levels of debt?

As has ben pointed out by many, we are run by accountants, can anyone see them letting this happen again?

Not all accountants are penny-pinching misery guts! Some accountants can look at the merits of controlled speculating. I've been involved in football clubs before (as an accountant) and it's plain to see that the finances off the park and directly linked to the product on the park. If you do not have a diverse income stream which dilutes the need to rely on the success of the 11 guys on the pitch, you need to get the product correct.

I've seen first hand where Clubs have scrimped and saved to pay off debt, keep the cash flow managed and minimised the investment on the park. It doesn't work, in my opinion. The product quality dwindles and the "stable" income streams go with it. If a Club's supporters feel they are not being entertained, or at least watching a competitive Club where the players look like they are trying / believe / have a pride in the Club, then they will walk. It starts with the season tickets reducing, then the walk-up gates go, the hospitality sales drop and the £1 or £2 in our pocket that we might give to a 50:50 draw or a pie / badge from Club shop stays in the pocket.

It's a gamble - an extra £x in the Budget can be the difference to stop that income dwindling and it pays for itself, but it cannot just be thrown in haphazardly. It needs to be backed by investment in a decent scouting and coaching network and any gems need to be given the long-term contract, rather than the policy of every player on a long-term deal. They need to be earned, unless we believe (from the outset) that they are stars, as getting rid of them (if and) when it goes wrong is costly.

I agree with the OP - investment is needed. Now is the time for the business people to show their true value to the Club and use their financial expertise to structure a deal that brings in the money to fund this or work out a deal that allows us to pay over time - in a way we can afford. That is the balancing act, but we do need to spend. Even I, as an accountant, can see that!

:aok:

I never said all accountants are penny pinchers, and dont believe for one moment ours are either. I have said many times our board back each and every manager to the hilt, giving them more to spend than most.

What i said was ( Unless we borrow again, and if we do it will have to be added to what we lost last year and this. How long before those millions add up to unsustainable levels of debt?

As has ben pointed out by many, we are run by accountants, can anyone see them letting this happen again?)

Now going on previous years, i believe we will back Fenlon in the summer, but wont put the club in too much debt, what we really need is our manager to start managing properly, on a par with the likes of Motherwell and Killie and the likes. If thats the case, our bigger budget should start to show.

Other than that, STF could give us a couple of million, that should kick start the team the way we all want. :greengrin

[keithkeith]

Fair enough. Understand.

Anyway...I agree!

:aok:

[blackpoolhibs]

Fair enough. Understand.

Anyway...I agree!

:aok:

:aok: I'm glad we agree. :greengrin

[Matt92]

Great Post.

This should be the strategy of course, preferably Young exciting talent like what Dundee United are churning up...fast exciting players to lift the team and grow into £££££££s.
Would love to see us sign young talent in their early 20s and some younger who are growing but have already done something of note in lower leagues.
So I think we need to boost our scouting network and for example say right we want 3 technically gifted midfielders, 3 of the same strikers, some big thugs for defenders and some good keepers.
What I mean by such a statement is to sign up a few youngsters who we see as being talented and try and recreate a Golden Generation. This involves looking for players such as Griffiths, Hasselbaink etc who are exciting and won't need LOADS of funding, who we are well aware of and to get in there before a season later when a bigger club snatches them. A fair amount would need to be spent but a worthwhile investment and like the OP says it would mean quieter transfer windows later on.

[LeithBoozy]

There is never a good time to have an unsuccesful poor team, allow us to have one during a recession when every penny is a prisoner. Crowds are falling everywhere not just at ER, so how do we return to profitability?. If we dont improve and fast, I cant see Fenlon being Immune to the angry reaction that would follow relegation. The million dollar question should be, how can teams with quarter of the crowds Hibs get, leave us standing?

[ScottB]

Yes we are ran by accountants.

But, what is more financially efficient? To have good players with resale value on long term deals, or having to rebuild the squad every window, paying off duds in the process?

I doubt the mess we've been through the last few years was anybodies plan, it has been a consequence of managers signing duds, and the general issues that seem to plague the squad.


Going forward, in a dream world I'd be tempted to bin almost everybody. We keep hearing about their being a 'poisonous' atmosphere in the squad, players not wanting to do as their told etc etc. This has been our underlying problem for far, far too long and is, for me, the root cause of all our problems. So it is time to punt anyone who so much is even looks at the manager the wrong out on their a*se, whether that's some unknown youth player or the much loved but badly behaved little numpty Griffiths, so be it.


Yes we are run by accountants, and accountants will see the danger we've been in and will remain in without change, in Scotland relegation would scare an accountant far more than the much desired 'fitbaw minded' board member.


It's also worth pointing out that Dundee United have done well with players from the SFL, and Motherwell with unknowns from elsewhere in Europe. Both the kind of signings that half this Board turn their noses up at as not being 'Hibs class' or 'lacking ambition.'

A large chunk of our support also needs to change!

[IWasThere2016]

I think the Board and Fenlon have got some major work ahead of them in the summer, as Nutsy has to start the team building process in earnest. Loan deals serve a purpose, but the lack of stability that the club has had since Mowbray left has sent us spinning on a massive downward trajectory, which if it doesn't relegate us this season, will do next season, unless addressed in the summer.

The board have backed each of the last however many managers with as much funding as they can, however a combination of spreading the money too thinly and failing to find a few gems in the signings. The churning of the squad is a failing policy (I use the word policy though I don't for a second think that anyone at the club planned to have this turnover of staff, so maybe it's not the right word to use).

IMHO, the Board have a duty to Fenlon, the fans, and the club to allow the manager the support and funds to start building for the next 3 years minimum. We need to look at longer contracts for better players.

I would suggest the Board use a bit of forward thinking and look at using the budget for this year and next, this summer. Naturally that will reduce what's available to Fenlon next January and next summer, but if he spends the money properly he'll not need to be making more than a couple of signings between the summer and the following season anyway.

Fenlon needs winners at the club, he needs a core group of influential players who will be at the club long enough to form a bond with the club, to set standards at the training ground and on the pitch, to bring through and mentor the youth players, and to establish themselves in their respective positions as a recognisable and regular first team.

I genuinely long for the days when we have an undramatic transfer window, where we don't go into it desperate to shift those players that we welcomed optimistically just a few months earlier and replace them with other hopefuls who we'll turn on in a few months time.

On the face of it, Hibs are a hugely fragmented club at the moment. So much seems wrong and I think most, if not all, of it stems from the fact that we have not built a team with any real longevity in it. We need to stop this 'we'll be a shop window for a season' nonsense and stop being a home for folk keen to be seen to be making an effort to get their careers back on track.

Without proper investment in the summer, we are going to be watching much of the same next year. Fenlon will have to fill as many gaps as he can with whatever budget he's afforded, and we'll be replacing the out of favour ones before too long, Fenlon - if he's lucky - will be replacing his own signings, however history shows that the approach of spreading the budget too thinly is more likely to cost Fenlon his job.

The board might worry if we can afford to spend, the question they need to consider is whether they can afford not to. It's surely more expensive doing what we've been doing the last few years than it would have been to have spent more on better and been able to keep them.

Nah - nice try but its the fans' fault. Long live the Accountants! :thumbsup:

[Hibs90]

We are ****ed unless major investment happens, and I just can't see that happening IMO.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I posted ages back, that given the level of investment in East Mains and into the concept of developing our own players, the job of any Hibs manager until that starts to pay dividend is to keep Hibs 11th or better. Mowbray wanted these facilities while we had a fantastic team.

[iain nolan]

unfortanly we cant make to many plans as we dont know what league we be playing in next season .
but as soon as we know something has to change as the club cant keep going on like this .
managers come and go , coaching staff come and go and players turn over is out off control.

manager needs to give them time

coaching staff let the manager pick it derek adams and billy brown was picked by the board let the
manager pick his team .

players again down to manager / board need to get experanced spl players in from the
st mirrens, motherwells and killie teams look at the first div and get some off
the better players. and blend them in with the youngsters coming though.

wages the board at hibs should be able to offer more money to scottish players than most off
our competition and we should not be loseing players to the likes off st mirren ,when
we go into the transfer window .

lets forget about signing english reserve players who cant get a game for there own
team we tryed this for years and it not working .it worked for tony no one else.

loan deals one or two max we want hibs players playing for us not wolves , stoke ect:flag:

fans we only want to see a team given 100% every week . we dont understand how a
player would rather sign for st johnstone than hibs and we expect the board to
pay more money to get the deal done for the supportes and the managment team.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Three years is fine and for my part I would like to see us sign Hasselbaink from St Mirren a player who on his day is a danger to any defence and who we should have signed from Hamilton when he became available. There are a few other decent SPL players who will be up for grabs in the summer and we have to get our fair share. Nae mair English lower league duds.

BUT:

What this club really needs is a change in philosophy regarding the type of player we are looking to produce at East Mains.

I for one was gobsmacked watching Athletic Bilbao the other week. Every player ran and moved like an athlete. It was'nt like watching 11 individual players, it was like watching one entity made up of 11 individual parts which all came together to make something beautiful.

Energy, intelligence, commitment, skill and most of all athleticism.

At East Mains we need to be teaching players skill, movement, commitment to the cause, how to play as part of a unit of 11 in an intelligent way ........... But most of all we must produce athletes, players who can run and run and run for 90 minutes.

That was what did for Man Utd, especially in the leg at Old Trafford ..... Yes Athletic were skillfull and clever, but what really flummoxed Utd was the fact that from the first whistle to the last Athletic ran and ran and ran, giving Utd no time on the ball when Utd had it and keeping the ball moving all the time when they had it.

If I was to come into the type of money tomorrow which would enable me to buy Hibs, the first thing I would do would be to arrange for every kids and youth team coach at ER or kids clubs associated with Hibs to spend as much time as possible over in Spain learning as much as possible how things work at Athletic Bilbao.

[Captain Trips]

Three years is fine and for my part I would like to see us sign Hasselbaink from St Mirren a player who on his day is a danger to any defence and who we should have signed from Hamilton when he became available. There are a few other decent SPL players who will be up for grabs in the summer and we have to get our fair share. Nae mair English lower league duds.

BUT:

What this club really needs is a change in philosophy regarding the type of player we are looking to produce at East Mains.

I for one was gobsmacked watching Athletic Bilbao the other week. Every player ran and moved like an athlete. It was'nt like watching 11 individual players, it was like watching one entity made up of 11 individual parts which all came together to make something beautiful.

Energy, intelligence, commitment, skill and most of all athleticism.

At East Mains we need to be teaching players skill, movement, commitment to the cause, how to play as part of a unit of 11 in an intelligent way ........... But most of all we must produce athletes, players who can run and run and run for 90 minutes.

That was what did for Man Utd, especially in the leg at Old Trafford ..... Yes Athletic were skillfull and clever, but what really flummoxed Utd was the fact that from the first whistle to the last Athletic ran and ran and ran, giving Utd no time on the ball when Utd had it and keeping the ball moving all the time when they had it.

If I was to come into the type of money tomorrow which would enable me to buy Hibs, the first thing I would do would be to arrange for every kids and youth team coach at ER or kids clubs associated with Hibs to spend as much time as possible over in Spain learning as much as possible how things work at Athletic Bilbao.

I see what you are saying Bovril but you are saying the type of player we produce at East Mains almost like it is an Academy, as far as I am aware it is a traing facility the only things we will produce there are our tactics and fitness as we would have elsewhere, the type of players Hibs produce is down to the mangers scouts and his contacts. EM gives us a dedicated base to train it IMO will not really be a factor in us producing players that as I have said is all about scouting.

[pentlando]

Not all accountants are penny-pinching misery guts! Some accountants can look at the merits of controlled speculating. I've been involved in football clubs before (as an accountant) and it's plain to see that the finances off the park and directly linked to the product on the park. If you do not have a diverse income stream which dilutes the need to rely on the success of the 11 guys on the pitch, you need to get the product correct.

I've seen first hand where Clubs have scrimped and saved to pay off debt, keep the cash flow managed and minimised the investment on the park. It doesn't work, in my opinion. The product quality dwindles and the "stable" income streams go with it. If a Club's supporters feel they are not being entertained, or at least watching a competitive Club where the players look like they are trying / believe / have a pride in the Club, then they will walk. It starts with the season tickets reducing, then the walk-up gates go, the hospitality sales drop and the £1 or £2 in our pocket that we might give to a 50:50 draw or a pie / badge from Club shop stays in the pocket.

It's a gamble - an extra £x in the Budget can be the difference to stop that income dwindling and it pays for itself, but it cannot just be thrown in haphazardly. It needs to be backed by investment in a decent scouting and coaching network and any gems need to be given the long-term contract, rather than the policy of every player on a long-term deal. They need to be earned, unless we believe (from the outset) that they are stars, as getting rid of them (if and) when it goes wrong is costly.

I agree with the OP - investment is needed. Now is the time for the business people to show their true value to the Club and use their financial expertise to structure a deal that brings in the money to fund this or work out a deal that allows us to pay over time - in a way we can afford. That is the balancing act, but we do need to spend. Even I, as an accountant, can see that!

:aok:[/QUOTE]

A good post but I have a couple of issues that i've highlighted in bold. In the point of finances off the park being related to the product on the park, that's fairly obvious. A winning team will attract more money (increased gates, transfer fees, prize money, tv money etc). However I've seen on many occasions that direct investment in the team does not always result in a better product. Hibs are a prime example of that over the last few years. It can be done through wise transfer dealings and galvanising the support (which does not always need new signings IMO).

You say its a gamble, and in business gambles are commonplace. However I've seen many owners 'gamble' with their clubs and I'm delighted that its not my club being gambled with. Football is not as simple, more investment does not always lead to better performance.