When Hibs were £20m in debt...

[Hibbyradge]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:

[Seveno]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:

I think that we had some debt but most of it was because of the other business dealing that Duff made. e.g the chain of pubs that he bought.

[Lix]

Given we traded out of it, it was sustainable so not cheating?:confused:

[Keith_M]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:


You asked the question, what do you think?


Minor point I suppose but I don't think the debt was ever that high.


Hibs paid all their taxes and paid off every penny of debt. How can that be classed as cheating?

[Hibbyradge]

Given we traded out of it, it was sustainable so not cheating?:confused:

Nice one. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

You asked the question, what do you think?




I don't know. That's why I asked the question.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think that we had some debt but most of it was because of the other business dealing that Duff made. e.g the chain of pubs that he bought.

That's how I remember it.

However, Radge has a point. In the First Division, we spent way more than we were taking in. The justification for that was, of course, that it was investment to ensure we got back to the SPL in one season.

The question, though, is ... when does "speculate to accumulate" become "living beyond our means"?

My own view is that... if you can't afford to pay your taxes, and can't even afford to set up a repayment plan, then you are cheating the State at the very least. That, for me, is when it becomes immoral.

[Keith_M]

...

The question, though, is ... when does "speculate to accumulate" become "living beyond our means"?


When you can't pay it back, start paying your players late, avoid paying taxes and/or go into administration?

[Westie1875]

Given we traded out of it, it was sustainable so not cheating?:confused:

This would be my take too, we got out of it by cutting our costs and selling assets to pay back the money. We didn't try to worm out of it through administration and we didn't fail to pay our taxes.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm liking this thread.

Radge asked the question, maybe playing Devil's Advocate, but it's a fair one.

I like the fact that we have faced up to it and, thus far, been able to justify our own situation.

Conscience satisfied, let's carry on putting the boot into the Huns and Hertz. :cb

[Hibbyradge]

I'm not sure our debt did reach as high as £20m, but it was £14.5m in 2003 (http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/2008/debts.htm), which was after the sales of Ulrik Laursen to Celtic and Ulises de la Cruz to Aston Villa for whom we received £2.7m, iirc.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm liking this thread.

Radge asked the question, maybe playing Devil's Advocate, but it's a fair one.

I like the fact that we have faced up to it and, thus far, been able to justify our own situation.

Conscience satisfied, let's carry on putting the boot into the Huns and Hertz. :cb

:aok:

[Part/Time Supporter]

Depends who it's owed to. If an investor wants to run the club at a massive loss and is willing and able to finance it, fair enough. A fair chunk of Rangers spending appears to have been funded by the state directly (not paying their PAYE or VAT this season) or indirectly (by avoiding taxes through the EBTs).

Hibs debt was all owed either to the bank (secured on the ground) or soft loans by Farmer.

[pentlando]

It was just before my time really, I was quite young when this was going on so may be a bit off with the fact.

IMO, we were living beyond our means (whether Hibs as the business or Hibs as part of the business) which isn't desirable but not illegal. The non payment of staff and using HMRC as a funding tool however is. If we did any of that then yes.

If either Rangers or Hearts take 20 years to get themselves back in reasonably healthy state, forced to sell off player after player, asset after asset then I will have no complaints. Luckily we had someone who came in, saved the club, ran it properly whilst maintaining a reasonable level of on field performance. We didn't get to start from scratch as a NewCo, but did it the hard way. Hope those two clubs have to do the same thing.

[Stonewall]

Given we traded out of it, it was sustainable so not cheating?:confused:

Well we had a car park and an exceptional group of young players to sell so I would say we got lucky.


I wouldn't like to see us try to trade our way out of that level of debt now.

[Ozyhibby]

£17 m was the peak of our debt.

[pentlando]

That's how I remember it.

However, Radge has a point. In the First Division, we spent way more than we were taking in. The justification for that was, of course, that it was investment to ensure we got back to the SPL in one season.

The question, though, is ... when does "speculate to accumulate" become "living beyond our means"?

My own view is that... if you can't afford to pay your taxes, and can't even afford to set up a repayment plan, then you are cheating the State at the very least. That, for me, is when it becomes immoral.

For me, the bit in bold is the same thing. Speculating to accumulate for me is living beyond your current means in the hope/gamble that in the very near future you will start earning beyond those previous means.

[blackpoolhibs]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:

We were living way beyond our means, kept afloat by the big sky deal we had. Not sure i'd call it cheating, as everyone was doing it, and we could still pay all our bills.

[Peevemor]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:

Not at all.

The debt (which peaked at £18m IIRC) was mainly due to the building of 3 new stands, the loss making season in the 1st division and player contracts which were signed prior to the collapse of the Sky TV deal.

However Hibs always had the saleable asset of the former car park and were the first SPL club (by 2-3 years) to review their wage budget in accordance with reduced TV revenue. Other clubs (notably Livi, Motherwell, Dundee, Dunfermline, the yams and the huns it would now appear) continued to chase the dream and ended up in the keech.

Hibs financial conduct was more or less irreproachable, though thankfully we had STF to lean on and not just the banks.

[s.a.m]

That's how I remember it.

However, Radge has a point. In the First Division, we spent way more than we were taking in. The justification for that was, of course, that it was investment to ensure we got back to the SPL in one season.

The question, though, is ... when does "speculate to accumulate" become "living beyond our means"?

My own view is that... if you can't afford to pay your taxes, and can't even afford to set up a repayment plan, then you are cheating the State at the very least. That, for me, is when it becomes immoral.


I'm also generally uncomfortable with football clubs being run on the tick, and I'd rather there were rules in place to prevent it. However, as others have pointed out, we did pay our dues. When it became clear that our spending was unsustainable, we went through a period of savage cuts. Rangers are trying to bail on their debts, by trying to ditch commitments through administration, and asking players to play on hugely reduced wages (compared to the contracts they were lured with). In Hearts' case, it's hard to see how they can trade their way out of their debt situation, because of the figures involved. They don't have assets equal to the enormity of their debt.

[Keith_M]

The main reason a lot of clubs did it was because they felt they had no choice, which had a domino effect on other clubs.

FWIW, I'd be very happy if new rules were brought in to stop ALL clubs living outwith their means. Added to that additional rules dealing with the likes of Hearts and Rangers financial chicanery

e.g. A rolling period of three years in which clubs have to have paid no more than 60% of income as wages.


Immediate punishments for the following, with the punishments already set out in the statute books in clear language and non negotiable.

- Not paying taxes

- Paying players late on a regular basis (e.g. 3 months in a row or more than 6 times in two seasons) with no need for complaints from the players.

- Failure to pay bills in a timely manner (which, to me, surely brings the game into disrepute)

- Playing in Maroon


OK, maybe the last one is a bit much, but you get the idea.

[s.a.m]

The main reason a lot of clubs did it was because they felt they had no choice, which had a domino effect on other clubs.

FWIW, I'd be very happy if new rules were brought in to stop ALL clubs living outwith their means. Added to that additional rules dealing with the likes of Hearts and Rangers financial chicanery

e.g. A rolling period of three years in which clubs have to have paid no more than 60% of income as wages.


Immediate punishments for the following, with the punishments already set out in the statute books in clear language and non negotiable.

- Not paying taxes

- Paying players late on a regular basis (e.g. 3 months in a row or more than 6 times in two seasons) with no need for complaints from the players.

- Failure to pay bills in a timely manner (which, to me, surely brings the game into disrepute)

- Playing in Maroon


OK, maybe the last one is a bit much, but you get the idea.

You cannae have a rule without the word 'promulgate'! :grr::grr::grr::rules:

[Bad Martini]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:

Perhaps the dictionary can help us answer this:

v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.


Based on the above, we cheated nobody. You can argue that we were living outwith our means though history will show we never had HMRC at our door, we always paid players (arguably too well) and we never broke the SPL rules.

We, the fans, were somewhat cheated insofar as we paid players who didnt turn up at times and indeed, to call themselves fitba players was an extension of reality but that is down to interpretation...

Bottom line; we didnt spend many millions more than we had with an aim to win the Scottish CUp or Champions League as a means to balance the books. We didnt bring in players clearly well outwith our budget (or not stupidly so) and we didnt ever cause anyone else financial hardship due to our own stupidity with regards financial dealings, save for the fans who paid for sub-standard "fitba" as I said above.

We cheated nobody. We were somewhat victim to circumstance too...we didnt know the Sky deal would collapse and we didnt know our overpaid (yet ultimately better than their performance) players would relegate us costing us a fortune.

Rangers - where to start? They "allegedly"...hid monies, paid no taxes, had dual contracts, bought way more than they bring in to "win" (and still failed)....bad business model.
Hearts - I havent got enough energy to list their financial iregularities though would say they look like they wont be paying their players again...(dictionary definition of solvency helps their plight)

We are many things. We have had our own problems in the past. We arent, however, financial cheats...theres many things I dont like about Petrie and his pals (MANY things). One thing you would never have them over is financial prudence...

Cheating *******s we arent unlike the bams over the road and the unwashed.

ENDOF

[HibbyAndy]

Perhaps the dictionary can help us answer this:

v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.


Based on the above, we cheated nobody. You can argue that we were living outwith our means though history will show we never had HMRC at our door, we always paid players (arguably too well) and we never broke the SPL rules.

We, the fans, were somewhat cheated insofar as we paid players who didnt turn up at times and indeed, to call themselves fitba players was an extension of reality but that is down to interpretation...

Bottom line; we didnt spend many millions more than we had with an aim to win the Scottish CUp or Champions League as a means to balance the books. We didnt bring in players clearly well outwith our budget (or not stupidly so) and we didnt ever cause anyone else financial hardship due to our own stupidity with regards financial dealings, save for the fans who paid for sub-standard "fitba" as I said above.

We cheated nobody. We were somewhat victim to circumstance too...we didnt know the Sky deal would collapse and we didnt know our overpaid (yet ultimately better than their performance) players would relegate us costing us a fortune.

Rangers - where to start? They "allegedly"...hid monies, paid no taxes, had dual contracts, bought way more than they bring in to "win" (and still failed)....bad business model.
Hearts - I havent got enough energy to list their financial iregularities though would say they look like they wont be paying their players again...(dictionary definition of solvency helps their plight)

We are many things. We have had our own problems in the past. We arent, however, financial cheats...theres many things I dont like about Petrie and his pals (MANY things). One thing you would never have them over is financial prudence...

Cheating *******s we arent unlike the bams over the road and the unwashed.

ENDOF


As usual BM, 100% Spot on :aok:

[Hibernia&Alba]

As usual BM, 100% Spot on :aok:


Seconded. An excellent summary of events

[jgl07]

Not at all.

The debt (which peaked at £18m IIRC) was mainly due to the building of 3 new stands, the loss making season in the 1st division and player contracts which were signed prior to the collapse of the Sky TV deal.

However Hibs always had the saleable asset of the former car park and were the first SPL club (by 2-3 years) to review their wage budget in accordance with reduced TV revenue. Other clubs (notably Livi, Motherwell, Dundee, Dunfermline, the yams and the huns it would now appear) continued to chase the dream and ended up in the keech.

Hibs financial conduct was more or less irreproachable, though thankfully we had STF to lean on and not just the banks.

The key thing about Hibs' debt was that much of it was long term mortgages, notably on the construction of the West Stand and this was all guaranteed by Tom Farmer.

The debts for Rangers and Hearts are all short term and much more damaging.

You should not compare the two. It's rather like comparing someone with a £150,000 25-year mortgage with someone else with a £150,000 bank overdraft.

The other issue is that Hibs took action to correct the problem of the short term portion of the debt and even considered selling Easter Road.

[sauzee1966]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:



We also need to think that the season in the 1st Division was a little unusual....season tickets were kept at the same price as the relegation year and after a few games crowds were very high at home due to the football. I know we had some high earners ..Le God & Latapy, Mixu, Rougier....but we also had a core of players who were Scottish, Crawford, Lavety, McGinlay, Renwick, Hartley etc or from English Lower Leagues...Skinner, Lovell etc.....so from paying vast sums i dont think it was the case. I would say that as the season went on Alex Mc knew he could improve the squad. We also got rid of some high earners and also the dross.


So there is a clear difference......if we had not gone up there would have been a real change and most of the top guys would have gone ( Dougie Cromb told me personally that some players had get out clauses if we did not get promotion...but the same players had another clause on improved terms if we got up...with a very good bonus

we lived within our means...made a loss but nothing drastic!

not like the Tin Rattlers ( can you spare a dime!) from the dark side.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

You asked the question, what do you think?


Minor point I suppose but I don't think the debt was ever that high.


Hibs paid all their taxes and paid off every penny of debt. How can that be classed as cheating?

Are you a consultant? :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Excellent replies. :thumbsup:

Everyone should now be fully armed when/if they hear any such nonsense from any merricks they may have the misfortune to encounter, (as happened to me).

[Keith_M]

Are you a consultant? :wink:


Do you think I'm a Consultant?






:wink:

[sesoim]

I think that we had some debt but most of it was because of the other business dealing that Duff made. e.g the chain of pubs that he bought.


From memory, Edinburgh Hibernian (the company we had became part of after the shares flotation) was around £5M in debt in 1990 thanks to Duff and co. Farmer bought the football club as a separate entity from Edinburgh Hibernian, so we didn't inherit any of the debts that Edinburgh Hibernian had built up. So, therefore, none of the debt we had thereafter was anything to do with Duff and co.

As for the debt (at its worst £14.5M), most of that was down to us having built three stands at a cost of around £14M. Most of that debt was in the form of mortgages and long and short term loans. We lost money when we were relegated, and also overspent by a few million under McLeish, but recouped a lot of that by selling Miller, De La Cruz, Laursen etc. The debt we built up had little to do with overspending on players.

Unlike some SPL clubs, we have lived within our means, and in a way we have paid the price - should a team like Motherwell be enjoying such a good spell after getting off with paying millions in debt, while we struggle having continually sold our best players? Did Livingston deserve to beat us in the League Cup when they had overspent so much to get there? Hopefully in the end things will even themselves out and we'll be back in the top four next season.

The Scottish Cup would be a nice reward for our recent suffering!

[hfc rd]

From memory, Edinburgh Hibernian (the company we had became part of after the shares flotation) was around £5M in debt in 1990 thanks to Duff and co. Farmer bought the football club as a separate entity from Edinburgh Hibernian, so we didn't inherit any of the debts that Edinburgh Hibernian had built up. So, therefore, none of the debt we had thereafter was anything to do with Duff and co.

As for the debt (at its worst £14.5M), most of that was down to us having built three stands at a cost of around £14M. Most of that debt was in the form of mortgages and long and short term loans. We lost money when we were relegated, and also overspent by a few million under McLeish, but recouped a lot of that by selling Miller, De La Cruz, Laursen etc. The debt we built up had little to do with overspending on players.

Unlike some SPL clubs, we have lived within our means, and in a way we have paid the price - should a team like Motherwell be enjoying such a good spell after getting off with paying millions in debt, while we struggle having continually sold our best players? Did Livingston deserve to beat us in the League Cup when they had overspent so much to get there? Hopefully in the end things will even themselves out and we'll be back in the top four next season.

The Scottish Cup would be a nice reward for our recent suffering!



Spot on.

[basehibby]

...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means? :dunno:

The huns have undoubtably been cheating by way of illegal payments and tax dodging and continue to effectively cheat by emotionally blackmailing their players into taking pay cuts that were not in their contracts.

As long as Vlad keeps paying his bills he will not be cheating - if he suddenly starts defaulting and asking his players to work for free then he will be IMO.

Hibs were in debt because of some bad business deals together with the costs of relegation - we have since bitten the bullet and traded our way out of it - some would say at the cost of a potentially championship winning team - even playing devil's advocate how on earth can that be seen as cheating :confused:

[The Falcon]

From memory, Edinburgh Hibernian (the company we had became part of after the shares flotation) was around £5M in debt in 1990 thanks to Duff and co. Farmer bought the football club as a separate entity from Edinburgh Hibernian, so we didn't inherit any of the debts that Edinburgh Hibernian had built up. So, therefore, none of the debt we had thereafter was anything to do with Duff and co.

As for the debt (at its worst £14.5M), most of that was down to us having built three stands at a cost of around £14M. Most of that debt was in the form of mortgages and long and short term loans. We lost money when we were relegated, and also overspent by a few million under McLeish, but recouped a lot of that by selling Miller, De La Cruz, Laursen etc. The debt we built up had little to do with overspending on players.

Unlike some SPL clubs, we have lived within our means, and in a way we have paid the price - should a team like Motherwell be enjoying such a good spell after getting off with paying millions in debt, while we struggle having continually sold our best players? Did Livingston deserve to beat us in the League Cup when they had overspent so much to get there? Hopefully in the end things will even themselves out and we'll be back in the top four next season.

The Scottish Cup would be a nice reward for our recent suffering!


Spot on.


The company was called Forth Investments, which the FC was part of. Briefly the problem post Duff and Gray was the shareholding of one David Rowland who did not see eye to eye to STF regarding the value his substantial shareholding, and his expect renumeration for handing them over.

Two of the three stand mentioned were built by the holding company and sold back to the club, along with the stadium, at a fraction of the build cost. Costs of the build of the end stands were met by HFC Holdings.

Overall while Hibs have overspent they have also paid all their bills and met all their obligations. Painfully so at times for us supporters, and that is what differentiates us from the current situation at other clubs, who are in admin or cant pay their players.