Water Politics in the UK

[Sylar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17340844

In the coming years, with both a changing weather system and projected changes to our climate, this thing is going to become more and more regular, with the South East likely to experience more prolonged periods of drought.

As a hydrologist, I find the potential consequences of this very interesting indeed and can see resource distribution of water becoming a huge political battleground.

There has long been talk about the need to pump water from the North of the UK to the South East, where warmer temperatures, less rainfall and depleted groundwater resources place an enormous strain on the availability/consumption rate. Obviously, we face no such issues in Scotland, where water is abundant and plentiful. It'll be interesting to see (particularly with the forthcoming rush to convince the Scottish public on a referendum on Independence) if Scotland can take strides in providing ecological trade to the south in the form of resources as well as energy.

I'm pretty confident the SNP will be looking to the Scottish Energy generating capability from renewable sources (particularly HEP, wave and wind), in conjunction with the surplus water resources we have as a strategic argument in the self-sustainability of the future of an Independent Scotland without the reliance on North Sea oil, but in the meantime, it'll be interesting to see how long we go before the UK government take action in an effort to redistribute water to the increasingly stressed south.

[Jack]

An alternative would be to redistribute the people!

[Hibs Class]

A few years ago I read about the rising water table in the south east. Context was around how some of the deeper London underground tunnels were in danger of being underwater, and one of the reasons given for the rise was the loss of so much industry in the south east, which had previously drawn off water from boreholes. How feasible is it to make use of that water? Or is it too dirty/difficult/not plentiful enough?

[WindyMiller]

An alternative would be to redistribute the jobs!

edited :cb

[speedy_gonzales]

Trade water for transport links? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17314545)

[Gatecrasher]

I have to admit I dont really like the idea of selling water to other countries (even within the uk) yes Scotland has loads of water, but for how long? I don't mind the government doing it in ermergancy situations like in N Ireland when most of their water system was frozen. I guess I would prefer the English to try and resolve the problem themselves before building miles of pipelines to take the water up here.

[Sylar]

A few years ago I read about the rising water table in the south east. Context was around how some of the deeper London underground tunnels were in danger of being underwater, and one of the reasons given for the rise was the loss of so much industry in the south east, which had previously drawn off water from boreholes. How feasible is it to make use of that water? Or is it too dirty/difficult/not plentiful enough?

It's a bit of a two fold problem - the gradual reduction in rainfall being received in the South East (this winter was 25% lower than the regional average) has meant that many of the rivers down there are having their baseflow sustained by the groundwater reservoirs which are there. These are also pumped to a degree for agricultural irrigation and consumption, so there is huge pressure on these reserves.


The second element of the problem is the continued expansion of the urban fabric, thus meaning what little rainfall they DO get is routed off the impermeable surfaces and lost to drainage networks, thus not providing natural recharge to the existing groundwater stores.

[Andy74]

It's a bit of a two fold problem - the gradual reduction in rainfall being received in the South East (this winter was 25% lower than the regional average) has meant that many of the rivers down there are having their baseflow sustained by the groundwater reservoirs which are there. These are also pumped to a degree for agricultural irrigation and consumption, so there is huge pressure on these reserves.


The second element of the problem is the continued expansion of the urban fabric, thus meaning what little rainfall they DO get is routed off the impermeable surfaces and lost to drainage networks, thus not providing natural recharge to the existing groundwater stores.

Is there really a pattern of less rainful which will continue or just the sort of blips that go up and down and have done for any number of years?

[Sylar]

Is there really a pattern of less rainful which will continue or just the sort of blips that go up and down and have done for any number of years?

If you look at the data, particularly on a seasonal scale rather than the year as a whole, there is indeed a clearly identifiable pattern of decrease in many regions of the UK. Conversely, some areas are showing a seasonal increase, but in the rather vulnerable South East, the pattern is pretty remarkable and projections suggest it will continue/deteriorate.

[RyeSloan]

If you look at the data, particularly on a seasonal scale rather than the year as a whole, there is indeed a clearly identifiable pattern of decrease in many regions of the UK. Conversely, some areas are showing a seasonal increase, but in the rather vulnerable South East, the pattern is pretty remarkable and projections suggest it will continue/deteriorate.

Which would indicate then that some sort of national water grid is going to be a requirement not an option. While smarter urban design and conservation should also be pushed it's hard to believe that this can solve the problem.

I'm a wee bit confused as to why a grid would be such a problem considering that the large storage requirements and local networks are all in place. You would have thought a nation that can pump oil through undersea pipe lines could build a surface one to shift water between a few strategic points.

I quite like the idea of selling water to England..why not take advantage of a renewable resource? Scotland does have the potential to export it's renewables and water would seem a good place to start.

[Part/Time Supporter]

It's far too expensive to transport water relative to its value.

[degenerated]

It's far too expensive to transport water relative to its value.

Surely that's a perceived value, water will be another commodity and price dictated by supply and demand :agree

[Don Giovanni]

No doubt Scotland has the potential to "export" a sustainable natural resource like water, but why would the England choose to "import" this commodity when it could invest in infrastructure to secure its own supply?

I would have thought that England as a nation has plenty of water available. Yes, there will be regional differences (as there is in Scotland) but the Pennines, and particularly the Lake District, receive and store significant, year round precipitation. Perhaps The Story So Far can provide some data on these regions and their potential to sustain water supplies elsewhere?

[Sylar]

No doubt Scotland has the potential to "export" a sustainable natural resource like water, but why would the England choose to "import" this commodity when it could invest in infrastructure to secure its own supply?

I would have thought that England as a nation has plenty of water available. Yes, there will be regional differences (as there is in Scotland) but the Pennines, and particularly the Lake District, receive and store significant, year round precipitation. Perhaps The Story So Far can provide some data on these regions and their potential to sustain water supplies elsewhere?

I don't readily have quantitative data for Northern England (though I suspect it would be readily available from the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology website), but theoretically, what you say is sound. The northern parts of England have huge aquifer systems, owing to large areas of sedimentary geological structures (as well as large areas of limestone karsts) and experience enough precipitation across the year to store substantial amounts. Much of the water in these storages will be decades old and will be regularly recharged, as there are large areas of undeveloped land, so the necessary processes can occur.

I think the initial idea was to channel water through canal systems from Northern England (and also Wales).

Despite the fact that we probably sustain the largest stores in the UK, I think we would be a last resort for resource provision.

[Peevemor]

It's a bit of a two fold problem - the gradual reduction in rainfall being received in the South East (this winter was 25% lower than the regional average) has meant that many of the rivers down there are having their baseflow sustained by the groundwater reservoirs which are there. These are also pumped to a degree for agricultural irrigation and consumption, so there is huge pressure on these reserves.


The second element of the problem is the continued expansion of the urban fabric, thus meaning what little rainfall they DO get is routed off the impermeable surfaces and lost to drainage networks, thus not providing natural recharge to the existing groundwater stores.

The majority of my work across here is on business parks (normally in excess of 10,000m²) and since a couple of years ago, in most areas, it's stipulated that surface water is treated and sent to landscaped basins (which you have to form on your site) where the water will permeate into the ground. Connections from the basins to the drainage network are used basically as overflows.

The same applies to smaller sites.

[Sylar]

The majority of my work across here is on business parks (normally in excess of 10,000m²) and since a couple of years ago, in most areas, it's stipulated that surface water is treated and sent to landscaped basins (which you have to form on your site) where the water will permeate into the ground. Connections from the basins to the drainage network are used basically as overflows.

The same applies to smaller sites.

It's a similar principal to modern housing developments over here - they have to install these Sustainable Urban Drainage Systems (SuDS) and maintain a specific ratio of permeable/impermeable surfaces.

Such planning/infrastructure can't really be implemented in older or existing settlement areas though, but it's nice that planners finally realised the importance of providing water with a route to the subsurface, as not only does it starve the recharge process, but exacerbates flood risk when such setups aren't in place.

[RyeSloan]

It's far too expensive to transport water relative to its value.

Sure the same could have been said for shipping small value items from China but investment in effective infrastructure made that more than cost effective.

With water only bills of over £200 a household not uncommon there is clearly significant revenue to be found in water provision but to be fair I have no idea of how much it would actually cost to transport water.

My thoughts are that surely there is scope for using micro hydro plants or other technology to harness some of the energy created when you send water down a pipeline distribution system...that tech could be used to generate elecetricity to pay for the distribution of the water. My previous point also stands, the storage and regional distribution systems are already in place so we are talking purely strategic cross regional connections. OK again not exactly my field of exepertise but it just strikes me as odd that there appears to have been little or no serious thought on how we could use 21st century technology to move water around the country effectively.

To save all the hassle I suppose Ofwat could of course get tough on the water companies and their leakage rates.........

[Part/Time Supporter]

Sure the same could have been said for shipping small value items from China but investment in effective infrastructure made that more than cost effective.

With water only bills of over £200 a household not uncommon there is clearly significant revenue to be found in water provision but to be fair I have no idea of how much it would actually cost to transport water.

My thoughts are that surely there is scope for using micro hydro plants or other technology to harness some of the energy created when you send water down a pipeline distribution system...that tech could be used to generate elecetricity to pay for the distribution of the water. My previous point also stands, the storage and regional distribution systems are already in place so we are talking purely strategic cross regional connections. OK again not exactly my field of exepertise but it just strikes me as odd that there appears to have been little or no serious thought on how we could use 21st century technology to move water around the country effectively.

To save all the hassle I suppose Ofwat could of course get tough on the water companies and their leakage rates.........

How much is that per litre? Bearing in mind that it takes about 8 litres of water just to flush the loo once. Then compare that with the price of petrol (for example).

[NYHibby]

If any of you are interested in this topic, I would suggest reading the Water White Paper the Westminter Government put out in December, the Scottish Government's hydro nation papers, and the various bits on the Scottish regulators' websites.

The Story So Far, for us having so many things in common, I find it odd we have not met.

[ginger_rice]

Interesting thread.

One thing I was thinking about slightly off topic but related.

I recall reading somewhere that as global warming increased drought and famine would become commonplace in many parts of the globe, and there was the real possibility of wars being fought for control of water reserves, which sounds rather familiar to some of the wars currently on the go for control of the oil.

Possibilities of a US sponsored regime change in HolyRood in 50 years time?:cb

[RyeSloan]

How much is that per litre? Bearing in mind that it takes about 8 litres of water just to flush the loo once. Then compare that with the price of petrol (for example).

No idea...not very much I would imagine and massively less than petrol I would say....but then again it's not a toxic substance that has had to be drilled from the north sea bed, transported to shore and refined in rather unenvironmental manner before becoming usable either! :greengrin

[Peevemor]

Interesting thread.

One thing I was thinking about slightly off topic but related.

I recall reading somewhere that as global warming increased drought and famine would become commonplace in many parts of the globe, and there was the real possibility of wars being fought for control of water reserves, which sounds rather familiar to some of the wars currently on the go for control of the oil.

Possibilities of a US sponsored regime change in HolyRood in 50 years time?:cb

Like China's occupation of Tibet?

[Sylar]

I was out taking my weekly samples from both the rain gauge in my garden and the nearby river (which I sample weekly as part of my PhD research) this morning and realised an interesting pattern from last year til now.

I'd been noticing of late that there was very little rain actually falling in Dundee, as most weeks since the start of the calendar year, it had been very low, or often empty. Since 1st January 2012 til now, there has been a pitiful 33mm of rain which has fallen in the city of Dundee. Contrast this to the same time period last year, where we had witnessed 216mm.

I've not had a look at any long term values, so they might just be outliers in a longer dataset, but if we didn't have sufficient stores up here, we would be in a similar position to Southern England. Thankfully, we have enough reserves that it's not posing an unmanageable problem quite yet.

[Gatecrasher]

I was out taking my weekly samples from both the rain gauge in my garden and the nearby river (which I sample weekly as part of my PhD research) this morning and realised an interesting pattern from last year til now.

I'd been noticing of late that there was very little rain actually falling in Dundee, as most weeks since the start of the calendar year, it had been very low, or often empty. Since 1st January 2012 til now, there has been a pitiful 33mm of rain which has fallen in the city of Dundee. Contrast this to the same time period last year, where we had witnessed 216mm.

I've not had a look at any long term values, so they might just be outliers in a longer dataset, but if we didn't have sufficient stores up here, we would be in a similar position to Southern England. Thankfully, we have enough reserves that it's not posing an unmanageable problem quite yet.

So is your measuring thingy over flowing yet :greengrin

[easty]

I'd been noticing of late that there was very little rain actually falling in Dundee, as most weeks since the start of the calendar year, it had been very low, or often empty. Since 1st January 2012 til now, there has been a pitiful 33mm of rain which has fallen in the city of Dundee. Contrast this to the same time period last year, where we had witnessed 216mm.



Today Dragons I'm looking for a £50k investment for 5% of my company. I want to fill up my empty Irn Bru bottles with water and sell it to people from Dundee, you know they only had 33mm of rain in the first 4 months of 2012, thats down from 216mm in the same period of 2011.

[Future17]

Today Dragons I'm looking for a £50k investment for 5% of my company. I want to fill up my empty Irn Bru bottles with water and sell it to people from Dundee, you know they only had 33mm of rain in the first 4 months of 2012, thats down from 216mm in the same period of 2011.

I like you Easty. You're a young man with a vision and you've come here today and pitched a bold idea to us. What I need from you now is your marketing strategy...how are you planning to sell water to folk fae' Dundee?

[easty]

I like you Easty. You're a young man with a vision and you've come here today and pitched a bold idea to us. What I need from you now is your marketing strategy...how are you planning to sell water to folk fae' Dundee?

Well Future, I'm glad you asked that question. I'm going to be filling the water into bottles in my factory, which at the moment is my kitchen. Then I, along with a friend who can drive, will make the journey to Dundee.

I've contacted the Lord Provest of Dundee to share my concerns about thier lack of water, he agreed that dying of dehydration was not what he had hoped for, for the people of Dundee. It was agreed that £1 per litre, with a minimum order of 2 litres per Dundonian per day, would be fair. With a population of around 155,000 that would give us a turnover of over £113million.

Obviously at that point we would branch out and look to supply other dry areas with water.

[Future17]

Well Future, I'm glad you asked that question. I'm going to be filling the water into bottles in my factory, which at the moment is my kitchen. Then I, along with a friend who can drive, will make the journey to Dundee.

I've contacted the Lord Provest of Dundee to share my concerns about thier lack of water, he agreed that dying of dehydration was not what he had hoped for, for the people of Dundee. It was agreed that £1 per litre, with a minimum order of 2 litres per Dundonian per day, would be fair. With a population of around 155,000 that would give us a turnover of over £113million.

Obviously at that point we would branch out and look to supply other dry areas with water.

Thanks for that information. It's refreshing, if you'll pardon the pun, to meet a entrepreneurial boffin who also has the figures at his fingertips.

However, I have previously travelled to the Dundee region, from the green fields of Broughty Ferry to the grey slabs of Kirriemuir. My knowledge of the area leads me to believe that no resident of Tayside's 4th favourite city would waste Jobseeker's Allowance on water, when there are options such as Tennents and Irn Bru available to stave off the threat of dehyrdration. And for that reason Easty...

I'm out.

[easty]

Thanks for that information. It's refreshing, if you'll pardon the pun, to meet a entrepreneurial boffin who also has the figures at his fingertips.

However, I have previously travelled to the Dundee region, from the green fields of Broughty Ferry to the grey slabs of Kirriemuir. My knowledge of the area leads me to believe that no resident of Tayside's 4th favourite city would waste Jobseeker's Allowance on water, when there are options such as Tennents and Irn Bru available to stave off the threat of dehyrdration. And for that reason Easty...

I'm out.

:aok:

[Sylar]

Today Dragons I'm looking for a £50k investment for 5% of my company. I want to fill up my empty Irn Bru bottles with water and sell it to people from Dundee, you know they only had 33mm of rain in the first 4 months of 2012, thats down from 216mm in the same period of 2011.


I like you Easty. You're a young man with a vision and you've come here today and pitched a bold idea to us. What I need from you now is your marketing strategy...how are you planning to sell water to folk fae' Dundee?


Well Future, I'm glad you asked that question. I'm going to be filling the water into bottles in my factory, which at the moment is my kitchen. Then I, along with a friend who can drive, will make the journey to Dundee.

I've contacted the Lord Provest of Dundee to share my concerns about thier lack of water, he agreed that dying of dehydration was not what he had hoped for, for the people of Dundee. It was agreed that £1 per litre, with a minimum order of 2 litres per Dundonian per day, would be fair. With a population of around 155,000 that would give us a turnover of over £113million.

Obviously at that point we would branch out and look to supply other dry areas with water.


Thanks for that information. It's refreshing, if you'll pardon the pun, to meet a entrepreneurial boffin who also has the figures at his fingertips.

However, I have previously travelled to the Dundee region, from the green fields of Broughty Ferry to the grey slabs of Kirriemuir. My knowledge of the area leads me to believe that no resident of Tayside's 4th favourite city would waste Jobseeker's Allowance on water, when there are options such as Tennents and Irn Bru available to stave off the threat of dehyrdration. And for that reason Easty...

I'm out.

:thumbsup: