If we avoid relegation, will Pat Fenlon have matched expectations?

[Hibbyradge]

Although I don't think we have any real hope of winning the cup, we've reached the semi-final for the first time in 5 years you never know, although it's unlikely, we could possibly scape a place in the final, if we can avoid Celtic in the semi.

We seem to have a group of players (and a manager) who know what a football team looks like and while wins remain illusive, only 2 in the league league since October and 4 since the season started, the difference in performances under Fenlon is tangible.

So, given the precarious position we were in when Nutsy was appointed last November, would you agree that if we stay in the SPL, he has been a success?

[greenlex]

Although I don't think we have any real hope of winning the cup, we've reached the semi-final for the first time in 5 years you never know, although it's unlikely, we could possibly scape a place in the final, if we can avoid Celtic in the semi.

We seem to have a group of players (and a manager) who know what a football team looks like and while wins remain illusive, only 2 in the league league since October and 4 since the season started, the difference in performances under Fenlon is tangible.

So, given the precarious position we were in when Nutsy was appointed last November, would you agree that if we stay in the SPL, he has been a success?

Yes. That was his target. Anything in the cup is a bonus.

[Hibercelona]

He was brought in to keep us up. We shouldn't be expecting much else this season.

Staying up + a Scottish Cup win and i'll give him another season to change things. :cool2:

[--------]

Although I don't think we have any real hope of winning the cup, we've reached the semi-final for the first time in 5 years you never know, although it's unlikely, we could possibly scape a place in the final, if we can avoid Celtic in the semi.

We seem to have a group of players (and a manager) who know what a football team looks like and while wins remain illusive, only 2 in the league league since October and 4 since the season started, the difference in performances under Fenlon is tangible.

So, given the precarious position we were in when Nutsy was appointed last November, would you agree that if we stay in the SPL, he has been a success?


Yes. First priority was always to avoid the drop. If he does that, he's achieved something I really don't think Calderwood would have done. I know that avoiding relegation is a ridiculous 'ambition' for a team with Hibs' resources and history, but given the mess Calderwood was making of the team, it's about as much as we could have hoped for around the turn of the year.

NEXT year we should be looking for a top-six finish at the very least, and given reasonable draws, a decent run in each of the Cup competitions.

Right now, I just want to see us certain of staying up. A semi-final win would be a real bonus - apart from the fact that we get to play at Hampden, there's a financial benefit in making the Final - but staying up will be success in my book. (For this season only, though.)

[Hibercelona]

Yes. First priority was always to avoid the drop. If he does that, he's achieved something I really don't think Calderwood would have done. I know that avoiding relegation is a ridiculous 'ambition' for a team with Hibs' resources and history, but given the mess Calderwood was making of the team, it's about as much as we could have hoped for around the turn of the year.

NEXT year we should be looking for a top-six finish at the very least, and given reasonable draws, a decent run in each of the Cup competitions.

Right now, I just want to see us certain of staying up. A semi-final win would be a real bonus - apart from the fact that we get to play at Hampden, there's a financial benefit in making the Final - but staying up will be success in my book. (For this season only, though.)

I think we may still struggle for top 6 next season. We've got a few promising looking players on loan that we need to get signed up ASAP if we can. But I still think we'll be looking towards strengthing the squad some more over next season.

[StarMan10]

Yes. First priority was always to avoid the drop. If he does that, he's achieved something I really don't think Calderwood would have done. I know that avoiding relegation is a ridiculous 'ambition' for a team with Hibs' resources and history, but given the mess Calderwood was making of the team, it's about as much as we could have hoped for around the turn of the year.

NEXT year we should be looking for a top-six finish at the very least, and given reasonable draws, a decent run in each of the Cup competitions.

Right now, I just want to see us certain of staying up. A semi-final win would be a real bonus - apart from the fact that we get to play at Hampden, there's a financial benefit in making the Final - but staying up will be success in my book. (For this season only, though.)


Think that bit is being slightly optimistic! Nobody really knows what is going to happen in the summer in terms of departures and arrivals but most likely there will be plenty of both. The side will probably be another relatively new looking side so to have those kind of expectations might be stretching it abit! Id be satisfied with top 6 and anything else is a bonus in my opinion.

[joe breezy]

Definitely need more strength for next season due to loan deals but he has done well so far...

[tamig]

Definitely need more strength for next season due to loan deals but he has done well so far...

I think PF is more than aware of that. The loan signings were brought in to keep us up. PF will already be working away on his signing targets for the summer with a longer term view. That may include a few of the boys currently on loan who are not in the long term plans of their parent club.

[Hibrandenburg]

Calderwood was steering us slowly but surely into the 1st Division. It would appear that Fenlon has now steadied the ship and is beginning to steer us away from the drop and deserves praise for that. Anything else this season would be an added bonus.

[--------]

Think that bit is being slightly optimistic! Nobody really knows what is going to happen in the summer in terms of departures and arrivals but most likely there will be plenty of both. The side will probably be another relatively new looking side so to have those kind of expectations might be stretching it abit! Id be satisfied with top 6 and anything else is a bonus in my opinion.



:shocked: OPTIMISTIC???????? MOI????????????? First time I've been accused of that for a while. :faint:

I don't know. If PF has the squad together for a proper pre-season, if he signs some of the present loanees, if he gets the backing to bring in adequate replacements for the guys he loses ...

Who knows? Perhaps a big part of the problem confronting him was the state of mind of the players - the dressingroom atmosphere and low morale? takes a while to turn that round, sometimes, especially when it's become a long-term situation which I think it may have been with us.

I just feel that for the first time for a while we have a manager in charge who has a grip of what the problems are and who has a bit more than the very faintest clue how to deal with them.

I feel very bad about Mixu - I for one totally underestimated the difficulties facing him when he came - but as far as I certainly wouldn't suggest that either Hughes or Calderwood really knew what they were trying to do with the team. Hughes at least cared, to be fair. Calderwood clearly didn't give a toss what happeened to Hibs. He just wanted to get out and back down south ASAP. No wonder the players' attitudes left a lot to be desired.

[Jones28]

Yepp :agree:

Came in and his main job was to keep us in the league. Tick!

The fact we are now getting a trip to Hamden and are in with a (albeit) slim chance of winning the cup is a huge bonus IMO.

Moan the Nutsy!

[BEEJ]

So, given the precarious position we were in when Nutsy was appointed last November, would you agree that if we stay in the SPL, he has been a success?
Yes. It would be amazing if any Hibs supporter thought differently.

[muzzhfc]

no. how dare he. he should have us sitting top of the league. this is ridiculous. im away to ER and EM to protest. whos coming with!?

on a serious note. yes. cup is a bone-us (semi). my expectation for next season - top 6. slow and steady progress. if achieved, longer contract to continue his building operation

[erskine-hibby]

As far as keeping us in the SPL yes.
The real work though begins in the closed season.
I hope we will see the team taking shape, sharpish, rather than leaving it till the last minute for bargain basement signings.
I would say a top six place next season is achievable...if he is given the resources.

[Northernhibee]

After how Calderwood decimated our playing ability in 12 months, PF's expectations aren't really based on league position for me, it's can he move the club forward in the long term.

The signs I've seen are positive, so I'm a happy bunny.

[Andy74]

From the shambles left by CC Fenlon has already surpassed my expectations in terms of at least being competitive.

[WhileTheChief..]

Avoiding relegation and reaching a cup semi after the shambles left by CC will be a major achievement as far as I'm concerned. I have total confidence in Pat Fenlon and looking to forward to seeing what he does in the summer.

[matty_f]

Although I don't think we have any real hope of winning the cup, we've reached the semi-final for the first time in 5 years you never know, although it's unlikely, we could possibly scape a place in the final, if we can avoid Celtic in the semi.

We seem to have a group of players (and a manager) who know what a football team looks like and while wins remain illusive, only 2 in the league league since October and 4 since the season started, the difference in performances under Fenlon is tangible.

So, given the precarious position we were in when Nutsy was appointed last November, would you agree that if we stay in the SPL, he has been a success?

I'm not sure he'll have met with our expectations from when he first came in. I think everyone expected a 'new manager lift' from the team, but although there were some better performances, results have been rotten until fairly recently (once he'd got his own players in).

That said, I don't think many of us realised just how terminal the club were when he came in, and it was probably only during the first few months of Fenlon's reign that the players weren't just being managed badly, they were bad players (for Hibs). It's only now that Fenlon's replaced the majority of Calderwood's team that we're seeing performances and results that are acceptable.

There's still a lot of football to be played this season. I don't think second bottom should be the target and I would think that based on the recent performances, we're capable of winning the bulk of post-split games so we could push on up the table a little.

The cup run has been a terrific boost to the season, and should we stay up and finish strongly as well as get to the cup final then I think that it would be safe to say that Pat will have surpassed expectations.

I don't think we should ever see avoiding relegation as being the expected target for a manager that comes in in November.

IMHO, though, Fenlon's been terrific for the club. I think he's done some fairly major surgery and knows how to put the club back on the rails.

[Bohemian_Hibee]

I'm not sure he'll have met with our expectations from when he first came in. I think everyone expected a 'new manager lift' from the team, but although there were some better performances, results have been rotten until fairly recently (once he'd got his own players in).

That said, I don't think many of us realised just how terminal the club were when he came in, and it was probably only during the first few months of Fenlon's reign that the players weren't just being managed badly, they were bad players (for Hibs). It's only now that Fenlon's replaced the majority of Calderwood's team that we're seeing performances and results that are acceptable.

There's still a lot of football to be played this season. I don't think second bottom should be the target and I would think that based on the recent performances, we're capable of winning the bulk of post-split games so we could push on up the table a little.

The cup run has been a terrific boost to the season, and should we stay up and finish strongly as well as get to the cup final then I think that it would be safe to say that Pat will have surpassed expectations.

I don't think we should ever see avoiding relegation as being the expected target for a manager that comes in in November.

IMHO, though, Fenlon's been terrific for the club. I think he's done some fairly major surgery and knows how to put the club back on the rails.
Excellent post Matty, especially the part about the majority of us not realising just how poor the team that Nutsy took over was.

[keithkeith]

Definitely. He was brought in to keep us up and if he does that, I'll be happy!

[Sir David Gray]

Excellent post Matty, especially the part about the majority of us not realising just how poor the team that Nutsy took over was.

I'm not trying to be funny but I thought that was fairly obvious to be honest.

Most of the players we had playing for us up until January were absolutely horrendous and absolutely nowhere near the standard or ability that should be required of a player representing Hibernian Football Club. Pat Fenlon was always going to be unable to do anything with them. I said at the time of his appointment that he was required to perform a full scale overhaul of the playing staff if we were going to avoid relegation.

Fortunately he's managed to do that in January in the shape of a lot of loan signings which look as if they are going to allow us to at least maintain our SPL status for next season.

To answer the question, I think if we stay up this season, Fenlon will have matched expectations. I certainly didn't expect any more than an 11th place finish when he took over in November. Anything more than that will be a huge bonus as far as I'm concerned, particularly a Scottish Cup win! :pray:

I just want us to get to the end of the season in at least 11th place, forget all about this season and focus on rebuilding the squad with some quality signings that are going to help us to get to where we should be in the SPL, i.e. inside the top four and challenging for Europe. For Hibs, finishing in the bottom six of the SPL for two years in a row is just simply unacceptable on every single level and it cannot be allowed to continue into a third year.

Fenlon has a massive job on his hands, yet again, in the summer but the signs, based on January's signings, are very positive and I am of the opinion for the first time in a while that the club is in a safe pair of hands.

[Septimus]

So far so good and if we are still in the SPL next season he will have done the first part of his job. He seems to know where to look for potential players which is a huge asset. And... like the team now he really looks as though he cares.

[IWasThere2016]

Hibs avoiding relegation is not a success. I didn't regard CC doing it after Hughes, nor will I regard it when (I'm now much more confident we won't go down) PF does it. We should never be near it! Roll on next season (I'm refusing to consider a SC win :wink:)

[Beefster]

No. Success would have been us finishing higher than when he took over. Avoiding relegation was the absolute minimum requirement. Very few people were saying when he was appointed that avoiding relegation was what we expected. I recall a lot of folk saying top six was still the expectation.

Real success will be the club learning the lessons of the past couple of years (particularly last summer) and doing everything to ensure we're not in this position next season. First action - do whatever it takes to get McPake in permanently.

[lucky]

PF was brought in to steady the ship. He has done that and is steering us in the correct direction but a lot of work remains. But we are just 180 mins from our holy grail and the team looks like it has enough to stay up. So yes he's doing ok

[The Falcon]

No. Success would have been us finishing higher than when he took over. Avoiding relegation was the absolute minimum requirement. Very few people were saying when he was appointed that avoiding relegation was what we expected. I recall a lot of folk saying top six was still the expectation.

Real success will be the club learning the lessons of the past couple of years (particularly last summer) and doing everything to ensure we're not in this position next season. First action - do whatever it takes to get McPake in permanently.


While that would be desirable he took a massive amount of persuasion to come here in January and I think he sees his future elsewhere.

Convincing him otherwise will be a big ask.

[PatHead]

Must admit I will still be disappointed with an 11th place finish. Whilst we are improving we still have an awful home record and should be beating "smaller" teams at home and giving the top half of the league a run for their money at home.

[blackpoolhibs]

I like Fenlon, he actually seems to care and also looks like he has a plan. He knew right away who was swinging the lead, and needed punted.

Very quickly he got rid of 99% of the dross, and did replace them with better, he knows we must stay up, and he did his best in difficult circumstances to try and achieve that.

We are still in trouble, but we have a much better chance of doing so now than we did before he came. Having a semi to look forward to, should keep everyone on their toes and it give the whole club a boost.

The fans are all behind the team/club again, and that was another thing he needed to do.:top marks

Yes next season will be difficult, he needs to build a new team, but we were in a terrible situation under calderclown, and Fenlon needed to do one job, and that was to keep us in this division, if he does and i think he will, the rest is a bonus.

[Andy74]

No. Success would have been us finishing higher than when he took over. Avoiding relegation was the absolute minimum requirement. Very few people were saying when he was appointed that avoiding relegation was what we expected. I recall a lot of folk saying top six was still the expectation.

Real success will be the club learning the lessons of the past couple of years (particularly last summer) and doing everything to ensure we're not in this position next season. First action - do whatever it takes to get McPake in permanently.

I think that's nonsense. We were a total shambles and there was no danger we were expecting anyone to come in and lead us to the top six.

Success was definitely going to be measured in keeping us up but also in just making us competitive. We are now going into games looking like we can score goals and also looking like we can keep teams out. We couldn't do either of those under CC.

[Spike Mandela]

No. Success would have been us finishing higher than when he took over. Avoiding relegation was the absolute minimum requirement. Very few people were saying when he was appointed that avoiding relegation was what we expected. I recall a lot of folk saying top six was still the expectation.

Real success will be the club learning the lessons of the past couple of years (particularly last summer) and doing everything to ensure we're not in this position next season. First action - do whatever it takes to get McPake in permanently.

Equally several of us were saying right from the shambolic start of this season that 11th was a likely finishing position and we were roundly criticised. If PF keeps us up it is job done, i have my doubts that CC could have done it.

Apart from the welcome distraction of the cup PF rightly states that more important games are to come in the next few weeks which we must win to ensure we stay up. From then on the big concern is what happens next? We can't just complacently think this year is a blip, it has been a slow terminal decline for a few years and unless we are wise in the summer it may not have bottomed out yet.

[Beefster]

I think that's nonsense. We were a total shambles and there was no danger we were expecting anyone to come in and lead us to the top six.

Success was definitely going to be measured in keeping us up but also in just making us competitive. We are now going into games looking like we can score goals and also looking like we can keep teams out. We couldn't do either of those under CC.

You may think it's nonsense but I know that it's not. Two quotes from a single thread on the day he was appointed.


I dont agree that this season is a right off at all. I dont even think top 6 should be that difficult. The standard of teams in the SPL is low, any team playing well will move up the table. There isnt much between teams in the actual standard of player.


I would think top 6 is a decent target to have, but our issues are deeper than someone just coming in and being able to pick a team and formation that works, will take time to get them up to proper levels of fitness and the like.

Top 6 would be a good finish for us this year, given the hopeless state we've been in thus far, I'd be happy with that.

[Hibbyradge]

You may think it's nonsense but I know that it's not. Two quotes from a single thread on the day he was appointed.

Two utterly unrealistic quotes.

[StevieC]

PF was brought in to steady the ship. He has done that and is steering us in the correct direction but a lot of work remains. But we are just 180 mins from our holy grail and the team looks like it has enough to stay up. So yes he's doing ok

And we are potentially 90 minutes away from Europe. :wink:

Would avoiding relegation, a cup final and European qualification be a success? I reckon it would be pretty hard to aim higher than that in future seasons.

[JimBHibees]

His main job was to keep us up and actually give the supporters a bit of hope that they had a manager in place who at least had a clue of what he is doing and also cares and has a bit of pride in the job. I dont think there is any doubt the team is going in the right direction though we are some way off being a great team there is improvement each week IMO. For Hibs to go to Ayr a team with a very good record of turning over SPL teams in cups and win in a canter with a professional performance was night and day from what we had previously.

[Big Frank]

In answer to the OP yes.

We now have a "footballing" manager. A good team behind the squad.


Hibernian look like a football team. Players seem to know their job on the park. Calderwood left us in a total shambles. Paddy is still shovelling his ****.

We must stay up. Anything else is a bonus. A very good crowd against aberdeen in the semi finals will make up finacially for the lowely league position.

I love Paddy :agree:


:pfgwa

[Beefster]

Two utterly unrealistic quotes.

All I said was that that wasn't an uncommon opinion at the time.

[blackpoolhibs]

All I said was that that wasn't an uncommon opinion at the time.

It all seems such a long time ago, yet not. My memory of it was we were terrible, and i certainly thought we could go down under that clown. I dont think that way now, even though its still possible.

The perception we Hibs fans have now, of how we are doing and where we are going is down to one man, yes it could still all go tits up, but we had little hope under calderclown, we at least have hope now under Fenlon, and the chance of one of these too. :cup:

[matty_f]

You may think it's nonsense but I know that it's not. Two quotes from a single thread on the day he was appointed.


Two utterly unrealistic quotes.


Fenlon was appointed in November, at that point (IIRC) we were only a kick in the backside off a top 6 side place (I would be surprised if we were more than 5 or 6 points away at that point). Teams usually (though frustratingly enough, rarely us) get a lift from a new manager. We had all been talking about how the issues stemmed from CC wanting away etc and that he was generally considered to be the biggest problem.

A change at that point, with a long, long way to go in the season should really have had folk thinking about making the top 6. We were 9th at the end of November, having been 3 points off top 6 at the end of October. Was it utterly unrealistic to still consider top 6 as a target at that point? I don't think so, as I mentioned above it was apparent that the players were as much a problem as CC only after CC left. Up until then we'd been looking at Sproule, Griffiths, O'Connor, O'Hanlon(!), and Osbourne as being players that would do a job for us. Even Agogo was getting some positive reviews for his play. The team's performance was roundly considered to be as a result of CC.

I don't know who made the posts that Beefster quoted, and with the benefit of hindsight then yes, they look unrealistic now, however at the time they were perfectly reasonable IMHO and I doubt that the best the Board hoped for when making a change relatively early in the season, that the target was just to salvage the SPL status.

[Hibbyradge]

Fenlon was appointed in November, at that point (IIRC) we were only a kick in the backside off a top 6 side place (I would be surprised if we were more than 5 or 6 points away at that point). Teams usually (though frustratingly enough, rarely us) get a lift from a new manager. We had all been talking about how the issues stemmed from CC wanting away etc and that he was generally considered to be the biggest problem.

A change at that point, with a long, long way to go in the season should really have had folk thinking about making the top 6. We were 9th at the end of November, having been 3 points off top 6 at the end of October. Was it utterly unrealistic to still consider top 6 as a target at that point? I don't think so, as I mentioned above it was apparent that the players were as much a problem as CC only after CC left. Up until then we'd been looking at Sproule, Griffiths, O'Connor, O'Hanlon(!), and Osbourne as being players that would do a job for us. Even Agogo was getting some positive reviews for his play. The team's performance was roundly considered to be as a result of CC.

I don't know who made the posts that Beefster quoted, and with the benefit of hindsight then yes, they look unrealistic now, however at the time they were perfectly reasonable IMHO and I doubt that the best the Board hoped for when making a change relatively early in the season, that the target was just to salvage the SPL status.

We were 2 points off the bottom of the league, playing awful football, having won 3 games out of 16. Many on here had us down to be relegated.

Yes, we were 6 points out of the top 6, but we had no structure, no shape and no competitiveness.

There was no possibility that a new manager could lift us into the top half of the table without major surgery.

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/page/FirstTeamTable/0,,10290~20111126,00.html

[matty_f]

We were 2 points off the bottom of the league, playing awful football, having won 3 games out of 16. Many on here had us down to be relegated.

Yes, we were 6 points out of the top 6, but we had no structure, no shape and no competitiveness.

There was no possibility that a new manager could lift us into the top half of the table without major surgery.

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/page/FirstTeamTable/0,,10290~20111126,00.html


Sure the Sunderland fans would agree with that...

I would say that most football fans would say that getting a manager in with the bulk of the season to go, and being 6 points off the top 6, that it was a reasonable target. It certainly wouldn't have been out of the question.

As for the structure, shape and competitiveness, that was something that was attributed to CC's failings and I think it was expected that Nutsy would turn it around (which he has, to be fair).

I don't think anyone expected his start to be as bad statistically as CC's time here.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think he is doing a good job. I have never seen a Hibs team with such defiance as this one.

It's like he has constantly noised them up about what a laughing stock we had become. For me dejection and apathy have been overtaken by a feeling of anger at the other clubs that have been taking the pee.

As for 110 years, it bloody well time was something was done about it!

[cockneymike]

While that would be desirable he took a massive amount of persuasion to come here in January and I think he sees his future elsewhere.

Convincing him otherwise will be a big ask.

That is disappointing to hear, but definitely believable. He did an interview about wanting to show a few people down south they were wrong about him, so it would definitely make sense.

That said, if we can't get him to sign up, then it is plainly obvious that we need to push the boat out a bit to sign someone that can be as effective as him - as Sean O'Hanlon has shown that he is not up to the job.

In answer to the initial question, staying up - would be a job done. From where we are now though, I'd like to think that we could still hope for reaching 8th or 9th by the end of the season - maybe even 7th if results went our way a bit.

[HKhibby]

Calderwood was steering us slowly but surely into the 1st Division. It would appear that Fenlon has now steadied the ship and is beginning to steer us away from the drop and deserves praise for that. Anything else this season would be an added bonus.

I dont really think we have had a good manager since Mcleish!, Mowbray excepted, but even the team lacked any flare or anything towards the end with him, Sauzee should have never been in the job, Williamson...well less said about the better! although he started out ok i seem to remember, but showed absolute nothing for it, Collins, well i didnt like the guy one little bit, although we won the cup under him, it really wasnt his team! and i think he has a chip on his shoulder...still does!, Paatelinen? well another that shouldnt have really been there in the job, although there were other problems facing him as well, Hughes...shouldnt have been in the job!, As for the last idiot Calderwood! the less said about that idiot, i really would love to see Birmingham get relegated!, and this one Fenlon? well the jury is still out on him im afraid, yes he has steadied the ship, but he wouldnt have been my first choice, but we will wait and see.

[Hibbyradge]

I dont really think we have had a good manager since Mcleish!, Mowbray excepted, but even the team lacked any flare or anything towards the end with him, Sauzee should have never been in the job, Williamson...well less said about the better! although he started out ok i seem to remember, but showed absolute nothing for it, Collins, well i didnt like the guy one little bit, although we won the cup under him, it really wasnt his team! and i think he has a chip on his shoulder...still does!, Paatelinen? well another that shouldnt have really been there in the job, although there were other problems facing him as well, Hughes...shouldnt have been in the job!, As for the last idiot Calderwood! the less said about that idiot, i really would love to see Birmingham get relegated!, and this one Fenlon? well the jury is still out on him im afraid, yes he has steadied the ship, but he wouldnt have been my first choice, but we will wait and see.

Who would have been your choice?

[Hibbyradge]

Sure the Sunderland fans would agree with that...

I would say that most football fans would say that getting a manager in with the bulk of the season to go, and being 6 points off the top 6, that it was a reasonable target. It certainly wouldn't have been out of the question.

As for the structure, shape and competitiveness, that was something that was attributed to CC's failings and I think it was expected that Nutsy would turn it around (which he has, to be fair).

I don't think anyone expected his strt to be as bad statistically as CC's time here.

Matty, Martin O'Neil, Alex Ferguson amd Jose Mourhino together, couldn't have got that bunch into the top half of the table.

[Hibrandenburg]

It all seems such a long time ago, yet not. My memory of it was we were terrible, and i certainly thought we could go down under that clown. I dont think that way now, even though its still possible.

The perception we Hibs fans have now, of how we are doing and where we are going is down to one man, yes it could still all go tits up, but we had little hope under calderclown, we at least have hope now under Fenlon, and the chance of one of these too. :cup:

CC had us playing the worst football that I've ever seen from a Hibs team (and the competition is large). At best we were at the standard of a mid table 1st division team and the likelyhood of us having to play other mid table 1st division teams on a regular basis was increasing with each game under CC.

Whilst PF hasn't got us playing like world beaters, he has got us looking like an SPL team again. This took time because PF had to come it and firstly locate our weaknesses, get rid of them and then replace them with something better that can keep us in the SPL.

[matty_f]

Matty, Martin O'Neil, Alex Ferguson amd Jose Mourhino together, couldn't have got that bunch into the top half of the table.

Don't get me wrong, i am not criticising Nutsy. I think he's doing an excellent job but the point I am making is that people expected us to do better than to drop places and be second bottom in March. Top 6 was certainly possible at the point that Fenlon came in and my point is more that Fenlon has met people's revised expectations rather than those expectations on his arrival.

[BEEJ]

Might be interesting then to turn the question around.

"If Hibs finish either 10th or 11th in the SPL this season, will Pat Fenlon be regarded as having been another poor management appointment?"

It doesn't take long to work out the answer.

[Hibbyradge]

Might be interesting then to turn the question around.

"If Hibs finish either 10th or 11th in the SPL this season, will Pat Fenlon be regarded as having been another poor management appointment?"

It doesn't take long to work out the answer.

Nice point.

Even 10th would be incredibly difficult to achieve, unless we really do get a massive boost from being in the semi final.

St Mirren are 8 points ahead in 9th place and they're steady enough so there no way we can catch then in the last 8 games.

ICT are 5 points away with a far superior goal difference and that would be hard enough. However, we have to play them, so in theory, we have a chance.

To be honest, all we need to do is match Dunfemline's results, but given the vast improvement in the team's performances and attitude, I'm sure most people would be disappointed with only that.

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=home_Statistics

[Andy74]

Might be interesting then to turn the question around.

"If Hibs finish either 10th or 11th in the SPL this season, will Pat Fenlon be regarded as having been another poor management appointment?"

It doesn't take long to work out the answer.

My answer to that would be no as its pretty clear from watching us that we have improved and given the time and space to develop his squad we could achieve some good things under him.

Are you suggesting it's easy to give the answer as yes, that he will have been a poor appointment?

[Andy74]

Don't get me wrong, i am not criticising Nutsy. I think he's doing an excellent job but the point I am making is that people expected us to do better than to drop places and be second bottom in March. Top 6 was certainly possible at the point that Fenlon came in and my point is more that Fenlon has met people's revised expectations rather than those expectations on his arrival.

Ignoring the actual points it was patently obvious that the team that PF took over were in no state to be looking up towards the top 6.

[matty_f]

Might be interesting then to turn the question around.

"If Hibs finish either 10th or 11th in the SPL this season, will Pat Fenlon be regarded as having been another poor management appointment?"

It doesn't take long to work out the answer.

I think most Hibs fans recognise what Pat is doing is pushing us in the right direction. I definitely don't think he will be seen as a failed manager and nor should he be. Far from it. The ironic thing is Yogi was hounded after a fourth place finish yet we will justifiably be pleased with Fenlon keeping us up along with a good cup run. Fitba' fans are complex beasts eh?!

[matty_f]

Ignoring the actual points it was patently obvious that the team that PF took over were in no state to be looking up towards the top 6.

Not at all. I used Sunderland as an example earlier in the thread. Relegation fodder under Bruce to a top ten team under MO'N.

It was widely thought that, at the time of his departure, that CC was the issue and we'd see an improvement under a new manager. At the time of his appointment, top 6 was achievable.

[bingo70]

I think most Hibs fans recognise what Pat is doing is pushing us in the right direction. I definitely don't think he will be seen as a failed manager and nor should he be. Far from it. The ironic thing is Yogi was hounded after a fourth place finish yet we will justifiably be pleased with Fenlon keeping us up along with a good cup run. Fitba' fans are complex beasts eh?!

Not really, all we want to see is progress, I think if we are heading in the right direction, under cc, yogi, mixu and Collins they were 'hounded out' as despite what they achieved we were heading the wrong way.

I think everyone is desperate for stability so are happy to be patient if there's signs of improvement, regardless how gradual those signs are

[matty_f]

Not really, all we want to see is progress, I think if we are heading in the right direction, under cc, yogi, mixu and Collins they were 'hounded out' as despite what they achieved we were heading the wrong way.

I think everyone is desperate for stability so are happy to be patient if there's signs of improvement, regardless how gradual those signs are

I completely agree, my last line was just a throwaway comment - wasn't serious.:agree:

[BEEJ]

My answer to that would be no as its pretty clear from watching us that we have improved and given the time and space to develop his squad we could achieve some good things under him.

Are you suggesting it's easy to give the answer as yes, that he will have been a poor appointment?
On the contrary - as my previous post on this thread (#12) would make clear.


I think most Hibs fans recognise what Pat is doing is pushing us in the right direction. I definitely don't think he will be seen as a failed manager and nor should he be. Far from it.

The ironic thing is Yogi was hounded after a fourth place finish yet we will justifiably be pleased with Fenlon keeping us up along with a good cup run. Fitba' fans are complex beasts eh?!
To my mind, it's all about how the team has been performing in recent weeks and whether there is evidence of progress or decline, even regardless of results at times. And whether the communication from the Manager and the club is describing what we are seeing unfold on the pitch week in, week out. Is it consistent?

So fans are really quite simple beasts, after all. :wink:

[blackpoolhibs]

Not at all. I used Sunderland as an example earlier in the thread. Relegation fodder under Bruce to a top ten team under MO'N.

It was widely thought that, at the time of his departure, that CC was the issue and we'd see an improvement under a new manager. At the time of his appointment, top 6 was achievable.

I agree he was the issue, but he also brought to the club the biggest bunch of losers i have seen in my lifetime at easter road.

Calderclown was the biggest waster we have had as manager i have been privileged to see at Hibs, and any new manager would have to get rid of all his dross before we saw any progress, thats why it took Fenlon so long to get results imo.

Top 6 was never achievable with calderclowns set of players, relegation was more probable.

[Hibbyradge]

At the time of his appointment, top 6 was achievable.

Statistically, it might have been, but not in reality with the squad Fenlon inherited.

Sunderland had a crop of decent players who were performing badly. O'Neill came in and changed attitudes, and tactics, and has had success.

We had a crop of poor players who were performing to their ability. (I except Hanlon and Stevenson from that observation.)

There is not a chance that he or Josep Guardiola or Eddie Turnbull had he been around, could have taken a team relying on the likes of O'Hanlon, Hart, Scott, Galbraith, Stephens, Towell, Sodje, Agogo, Palsson and Murray into the top 6.

[Dashing Bob S]

We've already avoided relegation. I see us finishing about 10 points ahead of Dunfermline.

To that end, Fenlon has been a success, in that he's a proper manager, and he we haven't had one of those in a long time. Not only have we improved in player quality, organization, fight and fitness, we will continue to improve.

The Scottish Cup is a nice diversion too.

[IWasThere2016]

Ignoring the actual points it was patently obvious that the team that PF took over were in no state to be looking up towards the top 6.

Nor were we in a two-horse race for the drop, and ICT and Eberdeen pulled away from us easily as the results were not good enough. Still, no doubt things are improving.

[jgl07]

Not at all. I used Sunderland as an example earlier in the thread. Relegation fodder under Bruce to a top ten team under MO'N.

It was widely thought that, at the time of his departure, that CC was the issue and we'd see an improvement under a new manager. At the time of his appointment, top 6 was achievable.

Sunderland were never relegation fodder. They had a fair squad in terms of quality that was way underperforming under Steve Bruce. O'Neill has given them self belief and drilled them to perform as a unit and the results came rapidly. Their football is still rather agricultural but there will be few complaints in Sunderland.

Hibs had little or no quality. Even that which was there never prospered. Take Vaz Te who was with Hibs for the second half of last season. He had been scoring goals for fun and moving from Barnsley to West Ham. Fenlon has had little opportunity to sign his own players and has had to make do with a lot of loan signings.

keep Hibs up and get to a cup final would be more than enough for pass marks for Fenlon.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Sunderland were never relegation fodder. They had a fair squad in terms of quality that was way underperforming under Steve Bruce. O'Neill has given them self belief and drilled them to perform as a unit and the results came rapidly. Their football is still rather agricultural but there will be few complaints in Sunderland.

Hibs had little or no quality. Even that which was there never prospered. Take Vaz Te who was with Hibs for the second half of last season. He had been scoring goals for fun and moving from Barnsley to West Ham. Fenlon has had little opportunity to sign his own players and has had to make do with a lot of loan signings.

keep Hibs up and get to a cup final would be more than enough for pass marks for Fenlon.

:agree:

Hibs were always going to struggle this season after 3-4 weeks of pre-season was basically lost to the "will he, won't he" saga with Calderwood and Notts Forest / Birmingham. Okay, no doubt he was still doing the day-to-day work on the training ground, but there was little activity in terms of bringing in decent players, which was badly needed after the clearout at the end of last season. In the end the job wasn't even half done, he brought in one or two decent players before (O'Connor) and after (Osbourne) the saga, but nowhere near enough.

[Andy74]

Nor were we in a two-horse race for the drop, and ICT and Eberdeen pulled away from us easily as the results were not good enough. Still, no doubt things are improving.

Yep, CC left us with a squad which was worse than ICT and Aberdeen.