Think before you post

[PaulSmith]

New laws come into play from today and anything deemed offensive on Internet forums could see your front door being kicked in at 5am by a squad of cops alongside the national news channels.

It will happen and you can bet your bottom penny that police have been monitoring sites like this for a while and have posters already in their sights.

L&B need to be seen to tackle and use these new laws, it won't just be FollowFollow or Celtic sites.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/03/01/new-laws-come-in-to-force-to-tackle-offensive-and-sectarian-behaviour-at-football-matches-86908-23770951/

[Ritchie]

i can honestly say ive not read anything on here that would merit anybody bashing through your door at 5am.

[MSK]

New laws come into play from today and anything deemed offensive on Internet forums could see your front door being kicked in at 5am by a squad of cops alongside the national news channels.

It will happen and you can bet your bottom penny that police have been monitoring sites like this for a while and have posters already in their sights.

L&B need to be seen to tackle and use these new laws, it won't just be FollowFollow or Celtic sites.Thats it ..nae more mentioning yams or yam players ...:panic:

[killie-hibby]

New laws come into play from today and anything deemed offensive on Internet forums could see your front door being kicked in at 5am by a squad of cops alongside the national news channels.

It will happen and you can bet your bottom penny that police have been monitoring sites like this for a while and have posters already in their sights.

L&B need to be seen to tackle and use these new laws, it won't just be FollowFollow or Celtic sites.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/03/01/new-laws-come-in-to-force-to-tackle-offensive-and-sectarian-behaviour-at-football-matches-86908-23770951/



Is this new law retrospective,or applicable only to internet entries from today.

[PaulSmith]

i can honestly say ive not read anything on here that would merit anybody bashing through your door at 5am.

The second offence relates to the communication of threats of serious harm or which are intended to stir up religious hatred, whether sent by post or posted on the internet.

You've never read on here anyone saying nothing along those lines against 'Huns' or 'dirty orange bxxxxx'

[Ritchie]

The second offence relates to the communication of threats of serious harm or which are intended to stir up religious hatred, whether sent by post or posted on the internet.

You've never read on here anyone saying nothing along those lines against 'Huns' or 'dirty orange bxxxxx'

it would take an army to crack down on that!!

these phrases are said every minute of everyday all over Scotland on forums, facebook, twitter etc. surely they cant expect to knock on every persons door who use them!

[Pretty Boy]

I wonder how enforceable these laws actually are.

If i refer to someone or a group as 'orange b******s' how can it be proven I was referring to.the whole Protestant Christian faith and not just a relatively small fraternal organisation? Its like arresting me for calling someone a 'boy scout b*****'.

[The Harp]

New laws come into play from today and anything deemed offensive on Internet forums could see your front door being kicked in at 5am by a squad of cops alongside the national news channels.

It will happen and you can bet your bottom penny that police have been monitoring sites like this for a while and have posters already in their sights.

L&B need to be seen to tackle and use these new laws, it won't just be FollowFollow or Celtic sites.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/03/01/new-laws-come-in-to-force-to-tackle-offensive-and-sectarian-behaviour-at-football-matches-86908-23770951/

... well that's my next career venture sorted - emergency joinery business!:wink:

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Nice knowing you, guys.

[MSK]

Nice knowing you, guys.Want tae buy a door ..?...

[Ritchie]

Want tae buy a door ..?...

:greengrin

[Cameron1875]

So the government would happily have me arrested for calling rangers "huns" yet they let 40,000 fans at Ibrox get away with their bigotry :rolleyes:

[Kato]

So the government would happily have me arrested for called rangers "huns" yet they let 40,000 fans at Ibrox get away with their bigotry :rolleyes:

Yes

[PaulSmith]

it would take an army to crack down on that!!

these phrases are said every minute of everyday all over Scotland on forums, facebook, twitter etc. surely they cant expect to knock on every persons door who use them!

Why would it, the first few arrests will be very high profile and get maximum publicity, this will act as a deterrent to the majority.

[Albion Hibs]

Another great use of the public purse.

[hibee92]

was there not a case of this a wee while back (last season i think) someone got arrested for posting on facebook or a forum that they were gonna do in lennon?

[N.Wales Hibby]

I have plenty to say but now saying nothing..... On a serious note, how could they police this. Forums like Hibs net are visited by and posted on by people from all over the world. I can see the police from Cyprus visiting me and informing me they got a phone call from L&B police informing them that I have called someone a yam and they are duty bound to cut the plugtop from my computer..... FFS . What kind of world do we live in.

[PaulSmith]

Another great use of the public purse.

Its only a cost if idiots keep posting their bile and hatred though, if they don't heed the warnings then why shouldn't they be punished?

[PaulSmith]

I have plenty to say but now saying nothing..... On a serious note, how could they police this. Forums like Hibs net are visited by and posted on by people from all over the world. I can see the police from Cyprus visiting me and informing me they got a phone call from L&B police informing them that I have called someone a yam and they are duty bound to cut the plugtop from my computer..... FFS . What kind of world do we live in.

FFS what kind of world do we live in when the common people of the world can't get behind a law which reduces hatred and intolerance?

[Pretty Boy]

was there not a case of this a wee while back (last season i think) someone got arrested for posting on facebook or a forum that they were gonna do in lennon?

That's another joke.

If after the next Derby I say I want to boot Ian Black in the baws, is that threat of violence considered any more likely or as serious as someone threatening to shoot Neil Lennon say?

* I, in no way plan to or in no way encourage others to do either of these things.

[Big Frank]

Its only a cost if idiots keep posting their bile and hatred though, if they don't heed the warnings then why shouldn't they be punished?


calling rangers fans huns is bile and hatred?

Can I still call the yams merricks, and celtc fans soapys?

Can johnnyboy still be referred to as ancient?

Can I still call Saltire2 a bawbag when he thrashes me at pooljam?

I gots to know :greengrin:greengrin

[Dalkeith]

"hateful, threatening or otherwise offensive behaviour" expressed at and around football matches which is likely to cause public disorder."

"around football matches" does this mean in a pub on other side of country :confused:

"likely to cause public disorder" who decides this?

[Gatecrasher]

a country where you have to be careful what you sayas the authorities might get you :hmmm:

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Is quoting in a reply considered distribution even if you are responding to express an opposite view?

As we've seen sometimes the law can be an ass...

[bighairyfaeleith]

I wonder how enforceable these laws actually are.

If i refer to someone or a group as 'orange b******s' how can it be proven I was referring to.the whole Protestant Christian faith and not just a relatively small fraternal organisation? Its like arresting me for calling someone a 'boy scout b*****'.

I called Gary O that the other week:worried:

[PaulSmith]

calling rangers fans huns is bile and hatred?

Can I still call the yams merricks, and celtc fans soapys?

Can johnnyboy still be referred to as ancient?

Can I still call Saltire2 a bawbag when he thrashes me at pooljam?

I gots to know :greengrin:greengrin

No idea. You can test the law if you want by posting offensive terms about 'Huns' and see what happens.

[EuanH78]

FFS what kind of world do we live in when the common people of the world can't get behind a law which reduces hatred and intolerance?


50k+ huns singing party songs at Ibrox with full media focus - no action taken
Some random person on a messageboard calls them huns and door gets kicked in?

Are you trolling?

[MSK]

No idea. You can test the law if you want by posting offensive terms about 'Huns' and see what happens.Aye ..do it Frank ...then I can move up a notch in the pool jam rankings ...:greengrin

[J-C]

I would have thought the posters on various websites who threaten violence, incite rioting etc, promoting sectarianism will be who the police are after.

[PaulSmith]

a country where you have to be careful what you sayas the authorities might get you :hmmm:

With all due respect that's rubbish and no one who is able to post or speak without inciting hatred towards another race has anything to fear.

We've had 50 years of complaints that the govt ignore blatant sectarian outbursts either at games or more recently online yet when it's tackled I hear that's it's a breach of freedom of speech or some other citizens rights, it's not.

[N.Wales Hibby]

FFS what kind of world do we live in when the common people of the world can't get behind a law which reduces hatred and intolerance?

Paul. I think you took my post the wrong way. I agree with your sentiments 100%. As stated by previous posters on here I have never read anything on here that was nothing more than light hearted banter. My comment was based on that fact

[PaulSmith]

50k+ huns singing party songs at Ibrox with full media focus - no action taken
Some random person on a messageboard calls them huns and door gets kicked in?

Are you trolling?

I presume you didn't bother to read the title or read the full article either?
The post was about posting on here.

Secondly the first part of the law covers exactly what you've just posted. You will see the police using these powers more and more at games and at Ibrox or anywhere else.

The first offence targets "hateful, threatening or otherwise offensive behaviour" expressed at and around football matches which is likely to cause public disorder.

[EuanH78]

With all due respect that's rubbish and no one who is able to post or speak without inciting hatred towards another race has anything to fear.

We've had 50 years of complaints that the govt ignore blatant sectarian outbursts either at games or more recently online yet when it's tackled I hear that's it's a breach of freedom of speech or some other citizens rights, it's not.

To be fair, the huns arent a race, they are an aberration. Only kidding Officer.

My problem with this is there is already plenty real world evidence that the authorities are doing nothing about without having to look at internet messageboards so they can do nothing about that too.

[Gatecrasher]

With all due respect that's rubbish and no one who is able to post or speak without inciting hatred towards another race has anything to fear.

We've had 50 years of complaints that the govt ignore blatant sectarian outbursts either at games or more recently online yet when it's tackled I hear that's it's a breach of freedom of speech or some other citizens rights, it's not.

The post was slightly in jest as i know its not as extreme as I was making it out to be, however its I can see a "Big Brother" Element to it

[PaulSmith]

To be fair, the huns arent a race, they are an aberration. Only kidding Officer.

My problem with this is there is already plenty real world evidence that the authorities are doing nothing about without having to look at internet messageboards so they can do nothing about that too.

Political pressure drives police resources, this bill has huge political backing from the SNP. You watch it being governed by dedicated anti-hate crime officers all over Scotland .

[EuanH78]

I presume you didn't bother to read the title or read the full article either?
The post was about posting on here.

Secondly the first part of the law covers exactly what you've just posted. You will see the police using these powers more and more at games and at Ibrox or anywhere else.

The first offence targets "hateful, threatening or otherwise offensive behaviour" expressed at and around football matches which is likely to cause public disorder.

That will have to be seen to be believed I'm afraid. Empty gestures about this have been many, I agree with the thrust of the law - no right minded person wouldnt be. Truth is it looks unworkable and the reality is that unless teh first part of this law is upheld faithfully (which I have serious doubts about) the rest of it doesnt mean a damn thing.

[Big Frank]

No idea. You can test the law if you want by posting offensive terms about 'Huns' and see what happens.


strange to use "offensive" before huns. that would suggest you view calling a rangers fan a hun offensive. ?

[Hibs Class]

was there not a case of this a wee while back (last season i think) someone got arrested for posting on facebook or a forum that they were gonna do in lennon?


There was. Guy's been sentenced today to 14 months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17219700

Ironically, he then received death threats of his own and moved to Northern Ireland, presumably for his own safety :confused:

[Big Frank]

Aye ..do it Frank ...then I can move up a notch in the pool jam rankings ...:greengrin


:greengrin


With all due respect that's rubbish and no one who is able to post or speak without inciting hatred towards another race has anything to fear.

We've had 50 years of complaints that the govt ignore blatant sectarian outbursts either at games or more recently online yet when it's tackled I hear that's it's a breach of freedom of speech or some other citizens rights, it's not.

Spot on Paul.

.... but this is where I am confused. I don't think eg huns, soapys etc for infirm fans is in any way "sectarian", or "hate"....

[Jones28]

Mon then :gun:

[superfurryhibby]

strange to use "offensive" before huns. that would suggest you view calling a rangers fan a hun offensive. ?


Agreed completely. There seems to be no certain definition as to what the "Hun" term actually means, never mind if it could be constituted as inciting racial or religious hatred in or around football matches.

Would that apply to Celtic fans that might refer to themselves as "Tims"? Even the "Fenian" word is in itself non-sectarian, some might say that "Plastic Paddy's" is considerably more offensive? I guess it's a matter of context.

Personally I wouldnae be getting my knickers in a twist about "Huns" "Yams"etc, etc. I see very little on these boards that alarms me in that respect.

[Diclonius]

I would have thought the posters on various websites who threaten violence, incite rioting etc, promoting sectarianism will be who the police are after.

Well there's only one Edinburgh football club's messageboard that doesn't condemn threats of violence and sectarianism and it ain't Hibernian FC. :aok:

[PaulSmith]

strange to use "offensive" before huns. that would suggest you view calling a rangers fan a hun offensive. ?

Exactly why I posted this thread to make everyone aware that using terms such as Huns in an offensive manner will, only IMO, be treated under this law.

This is based on the below:

The word "hun" is a term of sectarian abuse aimed at Protestants, judged to be sectarian by Sheriff Iain Peebles in October 2008 at Glasgow Sheriff Court.

and

In October 2008 Celtic fan Michael Devlin was convicted of religiously aggravated breach of the peace for wearing a T-shirt which bore a derogatory expression containing the word "hun".



This is a term which is regarded by most as an offensive term for Protestant or Church of Scotland members. Anti-sectarian charity Nil by Mouth has clearly stated on a number of occasions that this term is regarded as sectarian and generally the polar opposite of the expression fenian.

[easty]

It'll not stop me using the word hun on here.

I also would love to kick Ian Black in the baws, he's an ********.

Chances of the police coming to my door? I reckon the huns are more likely to win the league this season...

[duffers]

Posting after the next derby after Ian Black has kicked his way round the park picking up no bookings could be hard.
Dirty Hearts .....

[Hibernia&Alba]

Exactly why I posted this thread to make everyone aware that using terms such as Huns in an offensive manner will, only IMO, be treated under this law.

This is based on the below:

The word "hun" is a term of sectarian abuse aimed at Protestants, judged to be sectarian by Sheriff Iain Peebles in October 2008 at Glasgow Sheriff Court.

and

In October 2008 Celtic fan Michael Devlin was convicted of religiously aggravated breach of the peace for wearing a T-shirt which bore a derogatory expression containing the word "hun".



This is a term which is regarded by most as an offensive term for Protestant or Church of Scotland members. Anti-sectarian charity Nil by Mouth has clearly stated on a number of occasions that this term is regarded as sectarian and generally the polar opposite of the expression fenian.




This a bizarre interpretation which demonstrates the difficulty in definition regarding this. Hun is a Rangers supporter, not a member of any religious organisation. It used by fans of all Scottish clubs, most of whom are likely to be Protestant themselves, and is very different in my mind from Orange so and so type abuse. To suggest that all who use the term Hun are bigots committing a hate crime is just madness. All right thinking people want sectarian and bigoted behaviour stopped, but many things that could be termed derogatory aren't in that category.

[lyonhibs]

I'd best add a permanent caveat to a lot of posts near Derby/Rangers games then.

*** The above post is made purely in jest and does not imply any threatening intent or indeed reflect my actual intentions on the matter in hand. Lots of my mates have an affliction for Hearts/Rangers, but, hey ho, live and let live as they say. Now please don't bash down my Maw's door at 5am. Yours Sincerely, Mr "Well aware that "Big Brother" is watching me" LyonHibs ***

What a bloody nonsense.

[superfurryhibby]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hun [hʌn]
n
1. (Social Science / Peoples) a member of any of several Asiatic nomadic peoples speaking Mongoloid or Turkic languages who dominated much of Asia and E Europe from before 300 bc, invading the Roman Empire in the 4th and 5th centuries a.d
2. Informal (esp in World War I) a derogatory name for a German
3. Informal a vandal
[Old English Hūnas, from Late Latin Hūnī, from Turkish Hun-yū]
Hunlike adj
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

Noun 1. Hun - a member of a nomadic people who invaded Europe in the 4th century
nomad - a member of a people who have no permanent home but move about according to the seasons
2. Hun - offensive term for a person of German descent
Boche, Jerry, Kraut, Krauthead


Some interesting definitions. I myself only assciated the term Hun with Rangers fans and with Germans, in The Victor comic. As far as I am aware, it's does not denote any religious connotations.

I do understand that if you call someone an dirty Hun bassa, then that might be offensive. Equally, wearing a t-shirt that says ferruck the Huns, blah, blah, blah, is inflammatory, especially if this is donned in a public setting.

Referring to Rangers as the "the Hun" on a messageboard will never be a criminal offence. I think the OP is right to point out the changes in law that he refers to, but is completely off-track when suggesting that police will seek to prosecute me from saying that Rangers fans behaviour, at home and abroad over many decades has earned the right to be known as the HUns. They always have and always will merit that accolade.

[silverhibee]

it would take an army to crack down on that!!

these phrases are said every minute of everyday all over Scotland on forums, facebook, twitter etc. surely they cant expect to knock on every persons door who use them!


Probably not but you can be assured that the police will go out there way to show that they are cracking down on this kind of stuff by crashing through a few doors this week or next and charging a few people, and the courts making an example that this kind of stuff will not be tolerated anywhere in Scotland and hand out prison sentence's to the offenders.

And it just wont be Celtc and rankers sites that will be targeted, the police will have to show they are not picking on these two clubs and dont be surprised if the first people to be charged will have no connection to these clubs and our neighbours website across the road could be the first to be targeted by L&Bs with some of the stuff they spout over on brokeback.com.

Just got to be careful what you say on the internet nowadays.

Ibrox will be a good place to start this Saturday if Strathclyde Police want to clamp down on this kind stuff, :wink:, should be interesting. :greengrin

[sahib]

I'd best add a permanent caveat to a lot of posts near Derby/Rangers games then.

*** The above post is made purely in jest and does not imply any threatening intent or indeed reflect my actual intentions on the matter in hand. Lots of my mates have an affliction for Hearts/Rangers, but, hey ho, live and let live as they say. Now please don't bash down my Maw's door at 5am. Yours Sincerely, Mr "Well aware that "Big Brother" is watching me" LyonHibs ***

What a bloody nonsense.

This is a dreadful attack on free speech. Who has the right not to be offended? The right not to be scared, threatened, victimised or intimidated should be everyone's. Causing offence is too broad and subjective. The rangers fans, who I saw hit a young girl over the back of the head with a brick and run away, are unspeakable **** of the highest order, but let's not offend them. I am sure many decent rangers fans would agree.( I have been led to believe there are some)

[silverhibee]

I wonder how enforceable these laws actually are.

If i refer to someone or a group as 'orange b******s' how can it be proven I was referring to.the whole Protestant Christian faith and not just a relatively small fraternal organisation? Its like arresting me for calling someone a 'boy scout b*****'.


What you got against boy scouts, :greengrin, dib dib dib and all that scouty stuff.:thumbsup:

[silverhibee]

Nice knowing you, guys.


Get to your bed early tonight. :greengrin

Early start for you in the morning with the big key opening your door round about 5ish. :thumbsup:

[silverhibee]

I called Gary O that the other week:worried:


BIG trouble. :greengrin

[silverhibee]

50k+ huns singing party songs at Ibrox with full media focus - no action taken
Some random person on a messageboard calls them huns and door gets kicked in?

Are you trolling?


Lets see how many arrests are made at Ibrox this weekend, Strathclyde Police should be kept very busy from home and away fans on Saturday. :wink:

[givescotlandfreedom]

Jambos are fuds. I'm up at 5 tomorrow anyway,

[N.Wales Hibby]

Jambos are fuds. I'm up at 5 tomorrow anyway,

That made me laugh:top marks

[PaulSmith]

It'll not stop me using the word hun on here.

Chances of the police coming to my door?

You show them mate :)

[Dashing Bob S]

You show them mate :)

The Huns are **** and deserve to die!!!!!!


Nor am I keen on Rangers and Hearts.

[Steven_Hibs]

So the government would happily have me arrested for calling rangers "huns" yet they let 40,000 fans at Ibrox get away with their bigotry :rolleyes:

Bloody joke eh! :rolleyes:

[Kato]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hun [hʌn]
n
1. (Social Science / Peoples) a member of any of several Asiatic nomadic peoples speaking Mongoloid or Turkic languages who dominated much of Asia and E Europe from before 300 bc, invading the Roman Empire in the 4th and 5th centuries a.d


That is where the term comes from in regards Rangers fans. In the 70's with their bedraggled denims and straggly hair and the fact the went aroudn in hoards, they resembled depictions of Atiila's mob in epic movies (see pitch invasion, Barcalona.) Nothing to do with Protestantism at all.

[Keith_M]

The idea that the word Hun is equivelant to Protestant or means a member of the CofS is quite frankly laughable. Some have even suggested that calling someone an "Orange" B... or whatever is the exact equivelant. That is frankly ridiculous and insulting to mainstream Protestants/CofS members.

I've heard plenty of (at least nominal) protestants use these terms to denote their distaste for members and supporters of extremist groups (The Orange Order) and their FollowFollowers in the Rangers support. How can a Protestant be guilty of an anti-Protestant sectarian remark????


Oh and my wife's a German, therefore a "Hun" (See dictionary definition quoted previously). However, in the South where I live, most of the Huns are of the RC persuasion. If I call them a "Dirty Hun", exactly what kind of sectarian abuse am I displaying?

Anyway, surely 'Hun' is short for Honey, therefore a term of affection for our Rangers supporting friends? Or is that a bit 'gay', as the young people say nowadays, therefore opening themselves (Ooh Matron) to accusations of Homophobic abuse?


I could go on and on and on, but I'm just away to barricade my front door in case L&Bs finest have just booked their Easyjet flights to Munich for tomorrow :greengrin

[N.Wales Hibby]

The idea that the word Hun is equivelant to Protestant or means a member of the CofS is quite frankly laughable. Some have even suggested that calling someone an "Orange" B... or whatever is the exact equivelant. That is frankly ridiculous and insulting to mainstream Protestants/CofS members.

I've heard plenty of (at least nominal) protestants use these terms to denote their distaste for members and supports of extremist groups (The Orange Order) and their FollowFollowers in the Rangers support. How can a Protestant be guilty of an anti-Protestant sectarian remark????


Oh and my wife's a German, therefore a "Hun" (See dictionary definition quoted previously). However, in the South where I live, most of the Huns are of the RC persuasion. If I call them a "Dirty Hun", exactly what kind of sectarian abuse am I displaying?

Anyway, surely 'Hun' is short for Honey, therefore a term of affection for our Rangers supporting friends? Or is that a bit 'gay', as the young people say nowadays, therefore opening themselves (Ooh Matron) to accusations of Homophobic abuse?


I could go on and on and on, but I'm just away to barricade my front door in case L&Bs finest have just booked their Easyjet flights to Munich for tomorrow :greengrin

I just said to my wife..Could you make me a cup of tea Hun.....Her reply was, Flick off you Hibby ****. Charming

[Pretty Boy]

Exactly why I posted this thread to make everyone aware that using terms such as Huns in an offensive manner will, only IMO, be treated under this law.

This is based on the below:

The word "hun" is a term of sectarian abuse aimed at Protestants, judged to be sectarian by Sheriff Iain Peebles in October 2008 at Glasgow Sheriff Court.

and

In October 2008 Celtic fan Michael Devlin was convicted of religiously aggravated breach of the peace for wearing a T-shirt which bore a derogatory expression containing the word "hun".



This is a term which is regarded by most as an offensive term for Protestant or Church of Scotland members. Anti-sectarian charity Nil by Mouth has clearly stated on a number of occasions that this term is regarded as sectarian and generally the polar opposite of the expression fenian.



I find it quite worrying that the judiciary dictates what a word means.

I use the word hun to refer to Rangers supporters, including in an 'endearing' way to the few I'm friends with.

I've never considered the word to refer to Protestants in general. It would be bizarre if i was bigoted against Protestants, after my Dad is one.

[Sylar]

The idea that the word Hun is equivelant to Protestant or means a member of the CofS is quite frankly laughable. Some have even suggested that calling someone an "Orange" B... or whatever is the exact equivelant. That is frankly ridiculous and insulting to mainstream Protestants/CofS members.

I've heard plenty of (at least nominal) protestants use these terms to denote their distaste for members and supporters of extremist groups (The Orange Order) and their FollowFollowers in the Rangers support. How can a Protestant be guilty of an anti-Protestant sectarian remark????


Oh and my wife's a German, therefore a "Hun" (See dictionary definition quoted previously). However, in the South where I live, most of the Huns are of the RC persuasion. If I call them a "Dirty Hun", exactly what kind of sectarian abuse am I displaying?

Anyway, surely 'Hun' is short for Honey, therefore a term of affection for our Rangers supporting friends? Or is that a bit 'gay', as the young people say nowadays, therefore opening themselves (Ooh Matron) to accusations of Homophobic abuse?


I could go on and on and on, but I'm just away to barricade my front door in case L&Bs finest have just booked their Easyjet flights to Munich for tomorrow :greengrin

I think the argument is that it was a derogatory term used for Germans during the war, and as Germany is the seat of Protestantism, the 2 equate. Pretty fluid logic, but I've heard it argued by a fair few Rangers fans, and not of the knuckledragging variety.

I find it interesting that people cite dictionary definitions here. Following that example, the word "fenian" has no sectarian connotations. I recall reading an interview with Graham Spiers when Rangers were first called out many years ago in the "Scotland's Shame" documentary on Panorama:


"There's a very phoney debate going on among some supporters who tried to justify their chanting. I met a member recently of the Rangers Supporter Trust, a supposedly progressive, modern, forward thinking fans movement. Well you know he said: "the Fenian word, you know, you have to understand its political context" I said: "Look, do not insult my intelligence and your intelligence by pretending that the vast ranks of the Rangers fans who are singing 'dirty Fenian *******' are all mid 19th century political historians who are concerned with political dissent in Ireland." Of course they're not. By 'Fenian' they mean Catholic, and that's what they mean."As it is, I don't disagree with his sentiment - it's a feeble attempt to justify their bigoted chants, but let's be honest - how do you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt in a court of law that this is what they mean? It's also very difficult indeed to prosecute when the Celtic fans sing chants which use the very same words.

[Andy74]

I think the focus of those policing this will be on people attempting to create some specific threats or encouraging widescale trouble.

Hibs.net has never been close to either and I think the suggestion that we should all be concerned about getting pulled up for for some isolated name calling is ridiculous.

[The Harp]

I think the focus of those policing this will be on people attempting to create some specific threats or encouraging widescale trouble.

Hibs.net has never been close to either and I think the suggestion that we should all be concerned about getting pulled up for for some isolated name calling is ridiculous.

That's my take on this too. Having seen some of the bitter sectarian nonsense on some other fans websites (no prizes for guessing which ones:wink:) I don't think we've got too much to worry about.

[neilmartinrocks]

I can mind the old boys in the Ex servicemans club using the term "HUN" to mean Irish Republican's due to the arms and money supplied to them by the germans during WW1.
Also by me and friends of mine to mean Unionist's (HANOVERIANS).
Don't have to be a protestant or a hu..sorry rangers fan to be a "HUN".

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think the argument is that it was a derogatory term used for Germans during the war, and as Germany is the seat of Protestantism, the 2 equate. Pretty fluid logic, but I've heard it argued by a fair few Rangers fans, and not of the knuckledragging variety.

I find it interesting that people cite dictionary definitions here. Following that example, the word "fenian" has no sectarian connotations. I recall reading an interview with Graham Spiers when Rangers were first called out many years ago in the "Scotland's Shame" documentary on Panorama:


"There's a very phoney debate going on among some supporters who tried to justify their chanting. I met a member recently of the Rangers Supporter Trust, a supposedly progressive, modern, forward thinking fans movement. Well you know he said: "the Fenian word, you know, you have to understand its political context" I said: "Look, do not insult my intelligence and your intelligence by pretending that the vast ranks of the Rangers fans who are singing 'dirty Fenian *******' are all mid 19th century political historians who are concerned with political dissent in Ireland." Of course they're not. By 'Fenian' they mean Catholic, and that's what they mean."As it is, I don't disagree with his sentiment - it's a feeble attempt to justify their bigoted chants, but let's be honest - how do you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt in a court of law that this is what they mean? It's also very difficult indeed to prosecute when the Celtic fans sing chants which use the very same words.

Strictly speaking, the word Fenian is historically devoid of religious belief. The word was brought into use in the nineteenth century by those wanting to see an end to British rule in Ireland as an identifier of their philosophy, and of course many of the leading Fenians of the time were Protestants. You don't have to be Catholic to be a Fenian. As you say, some Celtic chants refer to themselves in this way. To my mind, an insult such as taig is far more sectarian in its implications.

[Robinho08]

Another contribution to the 'Nanny State'. When will it stop?

[PaulSmith]

I think the focus of those policing this will be on people attempting to create some specific threats or encouraging widescale trouble.

Hibs.net has never been close to either and I think the suggestion that we should all be concerned about getting pulled up for for some isolated name calling is ridiculous.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that there was any mention of 'everyone being pulled up for name calling'. I equally think its ridiculous that one can make assumptions as to how this Bill will be policed and somehow a lone poster on here will remain 'under the radar' of the police dedicated to the anti-sectarian unit which has been heavily funded and will need to show arrests to continue with the funding.

The absolute vast majority of posters on here, or other forums, have nothing to fear and should welcome these additional powers. The post was to enlighten posters to these new laws, how they are interpreted neither you or I can second guess, however ignorance and saying you only posted it once will not be a good defence in court IMO.

[PaulSmith]

Another contribution to the 'Nanny State'. When will it stop?

Gonnae explain that further? So the vile hatred of other religions and races on ff or jkb should be allowed carte blanche with no fear of the law?

[.Sean.]

Am I the only person who thinks all these new laws are utterly ridiculous? Am I allowed to say that?

I heard on the radio that some guy is getting 5 months for posting a picture on Facebook on a bullet-ridden Neil Lennon. Yes, it's out of order and in bad taste, but 5 months in the Slammer for it. Paedo's get less.

[superfurryhibby]

Strictly speaking, the word Fenian is historically devoid of religious belief. The word was brought into use in the nineteenth century by those wanting to see an end to British rule in Ireland as an identifier of their philosophy, and of course many of the leading Fenians of the time were Protestants. You don't have to be Catholic to be a Fenian. As you say, some Celtic chants refer to themselves in this way. To my mind, an insult such as taig is far more sectarian in its implications.

You are spot on by saying that Fenian has no religious connotations. However, being a pedant and a smart erse, it should be noted that the word Fenian is derived from the ancient Irish Fianna. An ancient, pre-christian, warrior caste who operated in the north of Ireland.

It would be interesting to know when the Hun word became associated with Der Hun. I might have to look out my copy of Bill Murray magnificent book on Scotland,sectariansim,sport and society and see if it has any pointers. Published nearly twenty five years ago and still the definitive article on the links between sectarianism and sport in our country.

[PaulSmith]

Am I the only person who thinks all these new laws are utterly ridiculous? Am I allowed to say that?

I heard on the radio that some guy is getting 5 months for posting a picture on Facebook on a bullet-ridden Neil Lennon. Yes, it's out of order and in bad taste, but 5 months in the Slammer for it. Paedo's get less.

Sean, the heavy sentencing is purely being used to send a message to the general society that the times of using offensive terms online or at football is gone. The deterrent has to be severe to stop it as in reality we could all do it, if the guy got a 100 quid fine then would it really stop anyone else? No chance but several months jail time and I'd hope it stops the sane minded from doing likewise?

I'm fairly confident that the guy will have quite a bit previous as well.

[superfurryhibby]

Am I the only person who thinks all these new laws are utterly ridiculous? Am I allowed to say that?

I heard on the radio that some guy is getting 5 months for posting a picture on Facebook on a bullet-ridden Neil Lennon. Yes, it's out of order and in bad taste, but 5 months in the Slammer for it. Paedo's get less.

No need and clearly untrue.

Actually, the example of a bullet ridden Lennon that you cite is probably a good example of where we do need to enforce the laws of a decent society.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Gonnae explain that further? So the vile hatred of other religions and races on ff or jkb should be allowed carte blanche with no fear of the law?

Absolutely not. Just as there are already laws in place in relation to racial hatred, it's right and proper that Scotland's deep-rooted sectarian problem is tackled head on. It's been the elephant in the room for far too long and is a disgrace to a modern democratic society. It must be brought out in the open and challenged. The question is what constitutes sectarian hatred and whether there is a genuine desire by the authorities to stop it at source, as this would mean taking on vested interests and powerful institutions. In relation to our club, I think it's fair to say we have less to fear than most in the central belt. As a newbie to this forum, I have to say my faith in the Hibernian fans has been affirmed on here. There hasn't been a single post I have come across to date that has made me angry due to its sectarian content. Compare and contrast that with other forums. We are fortunate to have a diverse and inclusive culture that is second to none. That isn't to say we are one hundred per cent pure, but the Hibs support is overwhelmingly a credit to the club and twenty-first century Scotland.

[Andy74]

Sean, the heavy sentencing is purely being used to send a message to the general society that the times of using offensive terms online or at football is gone. The deterrent has to be severe to stop it as in reality we could all do it, if the guy got a 100 quid fine then would it really stop anyone else? No chance but several months jail time and I'd hope it stops the sane minded from doing likewise?

I'm fairly confident that the guy will have quite a bit previous as well.

No, the days of using offensive terms are not gone, nor should they be.

As has always been the case, using these in a particular way will get you in trouble. however, saying to your mate that this huns team is one of the worst you've seen will not.

For me the type of thing you read on hibs.net is not intended to, andf will not be the type of thing that people will be getting in trouble over.

I think your point would be better made if you concentrated on the real message and not suggesting that the usual banal things you read on here may be caught by this.

[JustSimplyHibs]

New laws come into play from today and anything deemed offensive on Internet forums could see your front door being kicked in at 5am by a squad of cops alongside the national news channels.

It will happen and you can bet your bottom penny that police have been monitoring sites like this for a while and have posters already in their sights.

L&B need to be seen to tackle and use these new laws, it won't just be FollowFollow or Celtic sites.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/03/01/new-laws-come-in-to-force-to-tackle-offensive-and-sectarian-behaviour-at-football-matches-86908-23770951/


This country will get even more PC the longer the SNP remain at the helm. The police who do a fantastic job as it is :wink: have now to arrest people who dare to use their power of, 'freedom of speech'. Whatever next??

I might be wrong in saying this and i will stand corrected, the SNP have acted on a call from Chief of Police from Strathclyde regarding the bigotory of Rangers and Celtic have towards each other, the attempted murder charges surrounding Neil Lennon, forced through a piece of law that has not been properly discussed and have interferred with our national game however not once have they dipped into their pockets and handed over cash to aid the development of our game.

Yet what about some our schools where we still have cath's and proddy only schools or introduction of mosque's, this in itself breeds seperation and conflict within society, however the SNP do nothing about it yet will take a reactive (SNP all over) approach towards this issue.

How will they police this...if my friend in America was to post some derogatory remarks on this site, he can not be touched unless the law deem him to be a terrorist and pushing fundalmentalist views over the internet...then the law would have to apply to the Yanks and ask for him to be arrested and brought over here for trial. Can see that happening right enough :rolleyes:

Now remember it is not just the internet this applies to, you can be arrested under this law out on the street at any time of the week regardless if a football game is taking place or not, age is no barrier either.

As an individual i see this act by the SNP as a direct insult to my civil liberties and i severly hope the SNP get slaughtered in the elections because of it, i also hope that someone will get arrested for this but challenge this act in court and if no success there take to the supreme or even Europe (might be the only time a Rangers fan experiences Europe next season :wink: ).

rant over :grr:

[superfurryhibby]

This country will get even more PC the longer the SNP remain at the helm. The police who do a fantastic job as it is :wink: have now to arrest people who dare to use their power of, 'freedom of speech'. Whatever next??

I might be wrong in saying this and i will stand corrected, the SNP have acted on a call from Chief of Police from Strathclyde regarding the bigotory of Rangers and Celtic have towards each other, the attempted murder charges surrounding Neil Lennon, forced through a piece of law that has not been properly discussed and have interferred with our national game however not once have they dipped into their pockets and handed over cash to aid the development of our game.

Yet what about some our schools where we still have cath's and proddy only schools or introduction of mosque's, this in itself breeds seperation and conflict within society, however the SNP do nothing about it yet will take a reactive (SNP all over) approach towards this issue.

How will they police this...if my friend in America was to post some derogatory remarks on this site, he can not be touched unless the law deem him to be a terrorist and pushing fundalmentalist views over the internet...then the law would have to apply to the Yanks and ask for him to be arrested and brought over here for trial. Can see that happening right enough :rolleyes:

Now remember it is not just the internet this applies to, you can be arrested under this law out on the street at any time of the week regardless if a football game is taking place or not, age is no barrier either.

As an individual i see this act by the SNP as a direct insult to my civil liberties and i severly hope the SNP get slaughtered in the elections because of it, i also hope that someone will get arrested for this but challenge this act in court and if no success there take to the supreme or even Europe (might be the only time a Rangers fan experiences Europe next season :wink: ).

rant over :grr:



The term PC was an invention of a predominantly right wing media, used to discredit those who genuinely seek to re-dress the many social injustices in our society. Of course there have been examples of folk who take it all to far, but underlying this is the fact that we live in a class divided society where many are marginalised by virtue of their skin colour, religion, lack of money etc, etc.

If I were you I would be far more concerned about the activities of the likes of Rupert Murdoch, or the public school elite (exemplified by David Cameron and his pals) in terms of threatening our civil liberties.

The SNP have been in majority government for only a few years. The Labour Party betrayed every principle they had in order to get into office, which they did with a massive mandate. Well all know how effective they were at addressing issues you mention. In wee Eck I trust. Shame he's a Jambo but!

[PaulSmith]

No, the days of using offensive terms are not gone, nor should they be.

As has always been the case, using these in a particular way will get you in trouble. however, saying to your mate that this huns team is one of the worst you've seen will not.

For me the type of thing you read on hibs.net is not intended to, andf will not be the type of thing that people will be getting in trouble over.

I think your point would be better made if you concentrated on the real message and not suggesting that the usual banal things you read on here may be caught by this.

Andy, can you point me in the direction of where I personally have said that saying banal things on here will get you caught?
I've quoted a case in the Scottish Courts were the use of the Hun word was considered offensive, and quoted the much listened to NBM saying the same.

The real message is that there are new laws which have yet to be tested in courts and the police will be under pressure to get cases there as soon as possible. How they interpret what is and what isn't neither you or I know?

[PaulSmith]

This country will get even more PC the longer the SNP remain at the helm. The police who do a fantastic job as it is :wink: have now to arrest people who dare to use their power of, 'freedom of speech'. Whatever next??

I might be wrong in saying this and i will stand corrected, the SNP have acted on a call from Chief of Police from Strathclyde regarding the bigotory of Rangers and Celtic have towards each other, the attempted murder charges surrounding Neil Lennon, forced through a piece of law that has not been properly discussed and have interferred with our national game however not once have they dipped into their pockets and handed over cash to aid the development of our game.

Yet what about some our schools where we still have cath's and proddy only schools or introduction of mosque's, this in itself breeds seperation and conflict within society, however the SNP do nothing about it yet will take a reactive (SNP all over) approach towards this issue.

How will they police this...if my friend in America was to post some derogatory remarks on this site, he can not be touched unless the law deem him to be a terrorist and pushing fundalmentalist views over the internet...then the law would have to apply to the Yanks and ask for him to be arrested and brought over here for trial. Can see that happening right enough :rolleyes:

Now remember it is not just the internet this applies to, you can be arrested under this law out on the street at any time of the week regardless if a football game is taking place or not, age is no barrier either.

As an individual i see this act by the SNP as a direct insult to my civil liberties and i severly hope the SNP get slaughtered in the elections because of it, i also hope that someone will get arrested for this but challenge this act in court and if no success there take to the supreme or even Europe (might be the only time a Rangers fan experiences Europe next season :wink: ).

rant over :grr:

Sorry I fail to equal the term 'freedom of speech' with posting offensive material online or at a football game.

A direct attack on your civil liberties, really? Interested to know what you post that you fear might not be able to post now?

Nor do I see a correlation between divided faith schools or mosques.

[PeeJay]

I think the argument is that it was a derogatory term used for Germans during the war, and as Germany is the seat of Protestantism, the 2 equate. Pretty fluid logic, but I've heard it argued by a fair few Rangers fans, and not of the knuckledragging variety.
.

You're right - "Hun" was used as a derogatory terms by the Brits in WWI for propaganda purposes - the "Tommies" took it from Kaiser Wilhelm II's 1900 speech calling for his soldiers to be particularly viscous during the 1898 - 1901 Boxer Rebellion in China - it has nothing to do with German Protestantism, although it seems as a term it can be used to upset all manner of people, Chinese, Germans, Protestants...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion


BOXER REBELLION
Occupation, looting, and atrocities

Beijing, Tianjin, and other cities in northern China were occupied for more than one year by the international expeditionary force under the command of German General Alfred Graf von Waldersee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_von_Waldersee). The German force arrived too late to take part in the fighting, but undertook several punitive expeditions to the countryside against the Boxers.
Although atrocities by foreign troops were common, German troops in particular were criticized for their enthusiasm in carrying out Kaiser Wilhelm II’s words. On 27 July 1900 when Wilhelm II spoke during departure ceremonies for the German contingent to the relief force in China, an impromptu, but intemperate reference to the Hun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun) invaders of continental Europe would later be resurrected by British propaganda to mock Germany during World War I and World War II.

Kaiser Wilhelm's 'famous words' -
"Should you encounter the enemy, he will be defeated! No quarter will be given! Prisoners will not be taken! Whoever falls into your hands is forfeited. Just as a thousand years ago the Huns under their King Attila made a name for themselves, one that even today makes them seem mighty in history and legend, may the name German be affirmed by you in such a way in China that no Chinese will ever again dare to look cross-eyed at a German" -

[Hibernia&Alba]

The term PC was an invention of a predominantly right wing media, used to discredit those who genuinely seek to re-dress the many social injustices in our society. Of course there have been examples of folk who take it all to far, but underlying this is the fact that we live in a class divided society where many are marginalised by virtue of their skin colour, religion, lack of money etc, etc.

If I were you I would be far more concerned about the activities of the likes of Rupert Murdoch, or the public school elite (exemplified by David Cameron and his pals) in terms of threatening our civil liberties.

The SNP have been in majority government for only a few years. The Labour Party betrayed every principle they had in order to get into office, which they did with a massive mandate. Well all know how effective they were at addressing issues you mention. In wee Eck I trust. Shame he's a Jambo but!

Excellent post, mate, until you turned into a party political broadcast on behald of SNP. I personally don't think they are more radical agents for social change than New Labour are. The same petit bourgeois world view, IMHO. Ulitmately they are on the same establishment side and play the same divide and rule game. All mainstream parties are too afraid to tackle vested interests, even those who want to.

[snooky]

"The Law Is A (sic) Ass" - Mr Bumble (Oliver Twist)

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

As far as I can see the OP was just giving everybody a heads up, but, some people seem to be treating it as some sort of personal affront.

Gie the guy a break!

[Kato]

The term PC was an invention of a predominantly right wing media, used to discredit those who genuinely seek to re-dress the many social injustices in our society.


No it wasn't - suggest you do some research. PC doesn't re-dress anything, all it does is seek to control language, if someone is poor and white we're not supposed to call them "chav's" but they remain poor.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm in Spain on a mobile, all the best finding me ya numpties lol.

[Hibernia&Alba]

No it wasn't - suggest you do some research. PC doesn't re-dress anything, all it does is seek to control language, if someone is poor and white we're not supposed to call them "chav's" but they remain poor.

But the term is often used in a derogatory sense by the right. Which comedy show was it that always used to satirise the Tory housewife as she said "it's political correctness gone mad", as we so often hear the Daily Mail lament? The right wing press have substituted decency and respect for political correctness. Language is very important. It just isn't true to say that names will never hurt me. It can be a cutting tool which humiliates and demeans.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Anybody who reads this board can see what my opinion of racists and bigots is.

But there is and always should be a place in football for the good auld fashioned insult and IMO the word Hun comes under that heading.

Just coz you use a word against people who are themselves ( not all of them ) sectarian does not make the word sectarian. Using that logic if I argue with a black guy and call him a plonker, does that make the word plonker racist .... no it doesnt. Thats flawed logic and people who are supposed to be intelligent like Nil by Mouth and the odd Sheriff should know better than to say it does.

Everybody, but everybody, in Scotland who does not support Rangers refers to them and their supporters as 'The Huns' or affectionately as the 'Current Buns' does that mean that every club in Scotland has sectarian supporters ... no it doesnt.

I have used the word for years to discribe Rangers and their supporters with never a thought in my head that religion had anything to bloody do with it FFS !!!

In conclusion ...... I am buggered if I am going to be turned into something I've hated all my adult life just because some idiot or idiots have decided to turn something into something its not.

[ancient hibee]

The term PC was an invention of a predominantly right wing media, used to discredit those who genuinely seek to re-dress the many social injustices in our society. Of course there have been examples of folk who take it all to far, but underlying this is the fact that we live in a class divided society where many are marginalised by virtue of their skin colour, religion, lack of money etc, etc.

If I were you I would be far more concerned about the activities of the likes of Rupert Murdoch, or the public school elite (exemplified by David Cameron and his pals) in terms of threatening our civil liberties.

The SNP have been in majority government for only a few years. The Labour Party betrayed every principle they had in order to get into office, which they did with a massive mandate. Well all know how effective they were at addressing issues you mention. In wee Eck I trust. Shame he's a Jambo but!


Is your wee Eck any relation of Rupert Murdoch's new best friend?

Which civil liberties in Scotland has David Cameron and his pals threatened?

I hereby rechristen(are you allowed to say that?)Rangers fans "Friends of Attilla".Incidentally not much chance of public disorder at Ibrox with 50000 Rangers fans belting out the Sash while listened to by
250 Dundee United supporters.

[JustSimplyHibs]

Sorry I fail to equal the term 'freedom of speech' with posting offensive material online or at a football game.

A direct attack on your civil liberties, really? Interested to know what you post that you fear might not be able to post now?

Nor do I see a correlation between divided faith schools or mosques.

The internet does allows users to have a 'freedom of speech' on a global scale, a public space like any city or town square. Anything that anybody wishes to say can be heard or read by anyone else with access to the Internet, and this world-wide community is as large and diverse as humanity itself. Therefore, from a practical point of view, no one's law can govern the type of speech permissible on the Internet unless of course there is one universal law...across the world regarding offensive material.

So if someone from Turkey posts offensive material on just say my Facebook, seriously will our finest arrest him??? however if i post offensive material on his Facebook, i could potentialy be arrested....

Come on man, the Act/Law is a joke surrounding this....and we have Strathclyde Police and the SNP to thank.

It would have been so much easier to target the clubs on an individual basis i.e. deduction of points, ban from Europe, financial fines, ban their fans for home games...all which could have been done without intervention from a Political party, only if the SFA had a bit of guts to do something about it in the first instance.

There is no equal between internet and a football game, however if i want to chant or have a bit of banter at a football game or in a boozer with opposing fans wherever i am, i would like to hope that i can, just like my father, grandfather and great grandfather before me, offensive or non offensive.

Interested to know what you post that you fear might not be able to post now?
don't fancy posting in fear of a tap at the door at five in the morning :wink: so i'll pass thanks :thumbsup:

Mosques are a place where faith is practised, but they also teach children and children learn, as our schools are deemed not upto standard by certain quarters of the Muslim faith...they also cause conflict within areas, just like faith schools.

[truehibernian]

My own view regards what we write on forums is 'if in doubt don't write it'.

Bigotry, hatred, racism.....for me it's all learned behaviour from home.....which in turn can manifest itself amongst your peer group, then spiral out of control. Which is what we have witnessed for years in Scotland, particularly through West - however football is only a vehicle for it and it's a 'convenient release' for fans to vent it. Are there tens of thousands of bigots that attend football matches - in truth I would say no to be honest. Are there thousands who get caught up in the moment of ignorance by singing songs we know are littered with sectarian/bigotry......of course there are. Not at all condoning it, but how often have we read about the 'married father of two' who works in a bank who has been charged and convicted with these offences. Are there thousands who are ignorant and should know better - of course.

This legislation, like many laws, has been rushed through and conveniently comes in before May local elections. I wholeheartedly agree that it is needed, but it needs refined and needs far more thought put into it. It will be very resource intensive (police, lawyers, QC's, club officials, custody centre time/court time) - it will also see a huge influx of complaints regards internet abuse which itself can take many many hours to investigate and prosecute.


I think the OP is right to raise this issue as being high profile - it will be for the initial months and the Scottish Govt and police will be looking to tackle it head on initially. The courts and Sheriffs are also clear - the defence that certain words or phrases have a historical references thus making them inoffensive will not stand. This legislation wants to see a cultural shift and as such it will use current reference points in todays climate. For example a prosecution case was successfully won when a fan tried to hire a QC to defend his use of the phrase 'ooh ahh up the RA' - the QC I think tried to argue that this was a song/phrase that glorified the non violent political arm of the IRA back in the 1900's. This was argued unsuccessfully....2008 I think it was. So if in doubt, don't use the 'H' word or any other word that someone, somewhere, whether in the street or on a forum might report as offensive.

Same at games....do not get caught up making gestures or having flags with offensive slogans - I've been told that this will be dealt with firmly.

Am I bothered that someone in the crowd or on the pitch is black, white, Catholic, Muslim, wearing a Utd scarf or in a Sheep 'onesy' outfit, or are a blinking Jedi Knight - no ! Wee bit of banter, a few wee sweary words at the ref perhaps, sing a few decent songs and cheer the Hibs..........really don't see why folk get uptight at the law though. It's needed to try and stamp it out. And it's not the world gone PC mad either - it's trying to bring our wee world into the 21st Century IMHO because we've been living in the backwaters for long enough.

[Kato]

The right wing press have substituted decency and respect for political correctness.

You could just as easily say the left wing has substituted good manners and respect with legislation.



Language is very important. It just isn't true to say that names will never hurt me. It can be a cutting tool which humiliates and demeans.

Of course it can, I agree. However once that avenue has been shut down to those with racist views (or those with an "industrial" sense of humour) you could say it might push them to a further extreme in order to express themselves and that it makes them harder to spot.

[sahib]

My own view regards what we write on forums is 'if in doubt don't write it'.

Bigotry, hatred, racism.....for me it's all learned behaviour from home.....which in turn can manifest itself amongst your peer group, then spiral out of control. Which is what we have witnessed for years in Scotland, particularly through West - however football is only a vehicle for it and it's a 'convenient release' for fans to vent it. Are there tens of thousands of bigots that attend football matches - in truth I would say no to be honest. Are there thousands who get caught up in the moment of ignorance by singing songs we know are littered with sectarian/bigotry......of course there are. Not at all condoning it, but how often have we read about the 'married father of two' who works in a bank who has been charged and convicted with these offences. Are there thousands who are ignorant and should know better - of course.

This legislation, like many laws, has been rushed through and conveniently comes in before May local elections. I wholeheartedly agree that it is needed, but it needs refined and needs far more thought put into it. It will be very resource intensive (police, lawyers, QC's, club officials, custody centre time/court time) - it will also see a huge influx of complaints regards internet abuse which itself can take many many hours to investigate and prosecute.


I think the OP is right to raise this issue as being high profile - it will be for the initial months and the Scottish Govt and police will be looking to tackle it head on initially. The courts and Sheriffs are also clear - the defence that certain words or phrases have a historical references thus making them inoffensive will not stand. This legislation wants to see a cultural shift and as such it will use current reference points in todays climate. For example a prosecution case was successfully won when a fan tried to hire a QC to defend his use of the phrase 'ooh ahh up the RA' - the QC I think tried to argue that this was a song/phrase that glorified the non violent political arm of the IRA back in the 1900's. This was argued unsuccessfully....2008 I think it was. So if in doubt, don't use the 'H' word or any other word that someone, somewhere, whether in the street or on a forum might report as offensive.

Same at games....do not get caught up making gestures or having flags with offensive slogans - I've been told that this will be dealt with firmly.

Am I bothered that someone in the crowd or on the pitch is black, white, Catholic, Muslim, wearing a Utd scarf or in a Sheep 'onesy' outfit, or are a blinking Jedi Knight - no ! Wee bit of banter, a few wee sweary words at the ref perhaps, sing a few decent songs and cheer the Hibs..........really don't see why folk get uptight at the law though. It's needed to try and stamp it out. And it's not the world gone PC mad either - it's trying to bring our wee world into the 21st Century IMHO because we've been living in the backwaters for long enough.

I am fed up of these repressive, illiberal laws being brought in under the cover of "niceness". Freedoms are being erroded for everyone not just the rabid bigots.

[truehibernian]

I am fed up of these repressive, illiberal laws being brought in under the cover of "niceness". Freedoms are being erroded for everyone not just the rabid bigots.

Is your freedom being eroded though mate ? You can still watch and go to the football, you can still shout and swear at the players if you choose. This law is to stop people chanting, singing and writing things that are deemed offensive due to someones religion or cultural background.

No ones freedom has been taken away in my opinion. All boils down to a respect thing in my humble opinion. There will always be room for banter and a laugh at the football though.

I do think things are warped and muddied though in law.....in May for example the English Defence League are allowed to march through the streets of Edinburgh......freedom of speech or inciting hatred or potential disorder ? Some may argue the pros and cons of that......Celtic fan crosses himself towards Rangers fan during a game....now risks arrest.......a never ending debate that will go on and on.

[JustSimplyHibs]

Is your freedom being eroded though mate ? You can still watch and go to the football, you can still shout and swear at the players if you choose. This law is to stop people chanting, singing and writing things that are deemed offensive due to someones religion or cultural background.

No ones freedom has been taken away in my opinion. All boils down to a respect thing in my humble opinion. There will always be room for banter and a laugh at the football though.

I do think things are warped and muddied though in law.....in May for example the English Defence League are allowed to march through the streets of Edinburgh......freedom of speech or inciting hatred or potential disorder ? Some may argue the pros and cons of that......Celtic fan crosses himself towards Rangers fan during a game....now risks arrest.......a never ending debate that will go on and on.

My opinion is that our choice of freedom of speech has been taken away, without proper discussions through the proper channels...you are right however RESPECT but the choice of being respectful towards one and another has also been taken away as well. In May IMO the EDL and SDL will NOT march in Edinburgh because of new laws...but if they do march am sure the new law will be tested to the max, esp when cross border laws clash.

2nd bold bit, doesnae mater where anyone practises the caths faith of crossing one's self....even a Hibby doing it to a Celtic fan, faces being arrested...or the big question, WILL you be arrested for it? bear in mind you could be broadcasted to the whole world through TV, offending someone somewhere.

But like you say a never ending debate which will be challenged and i reckon the SNP government will have to eventually back track somewhere along the line...

This would never be a discussion unless the SFA had a bit of baws and took a more pro active approach towards the source of the problem within our game...instead the SNP government have implemented a law that is a mine field waiting to explode on advice from Strathclyde police.

[Sylar]

Came across the following - this is a statement which was issued by the Rangers Supporters Trust about the singing of their song "Build My Gallows", but I found some of the other points quite interesting (and ludicrous in equal measures):


The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications ( Scotland) Act 2012 become law today, 1st March 2012.

On Monday 27th February at 7pm RST board members Derek Johnston and Mark Dingwall attended a FOCUS (Football Co-ordination Unit for Scotland) fan organisations forum on behalf of the Rangers Supporters Trust. The meeting had various representatives from Celtic, Partick Thistle, St Mirren, Kilmarnock and Queen of the South as well as three police officers from FOCUS. Only Inspector Marian MacLean, the deputy head of FOCUS, identified herself.

During the meeting the following outline for what is seen as the ‘guide’ on Offensive Behaviour at Football (2012) was given.

Any songs/ lyrics which refer in an offensive manner to heritage, religion, race, sex or mock the death/ injury of others as well as any songs/ lyrics which show support of any terrorist organisations.
The same ‘guide’ is also given in terms of any flags or banners supporters might produce at a regulated football match in Scotland (Junior football is not deemed as regulated.)

The police regard the Act a simplifying things and giving them a legal “one stop shop” in terms of powers to charge people with football-related behaviour. They claimed that fans shouldn’t see a difference in policing at games and that no new tactics would be employed.

Inspector MacLean said that she would consider no increase in arrests as a result of the legislation and said that she felt no pressure to justify the existence of FOCUS by upping the level of arrests at games.

The Lord Advocate’s Guidelines for the operation of the Act will shortly be published but we are told they involve exemptions. For instance, it will not be an offence to make a ‘religious sign’ in a football ground unless there are aggravating factors. This somewhat runs contrary to the mantra the police repeated throughout the meeting that fans should refrain from anything that has ‘nothing to do with football.’

Similarly, the singing of national anthems is excluded from arrestable behaviour even if they are in fact racist, sectarian or otherwise offensive.

The police repeatedly stated that bad taste and banter would be allowed but repeatedly stressed they would challenge songs or ‘banter’ that they consider to be ‘not appropriate,’ ‘not relevant’ or ‘not to do with football.’ Several reps asked if their vision of the future was the complete remove of rivalry, colour and wit and the replacement with nursery rhymes or complete silence.

All three police officers present said that there are some songs and chants not previously chargeable that now are but they declined to offer examples or explain the rationale they would be applying. It was pointed out that if they were having discussions about jailing people for Build My Gallows then they must have had other internal discussions and why would they not share that information with us and save people from being arrested.

The Trust would like to ask all fans to continue in vocally backing our team at matches but also make sure that you take care in the stands in terms of what you may sing/chant at a match.

This opens a potentially HUGE can of worms and doesn't solve the issue - how do the police deal with a few thousand "offenders" inside a stadium singing a song which is deemed "offensive"?

When you look around at the ever-dropping attendances in Scottish football, the overpriced/poor quality product and liklihood of a one-horse race for the next few seasons, this has the potential to remove any atmosphere/banter from the game into the bargain.

Don't get me wrong, having legislation in place to tackle bigoted/racist/pro-terrorist singing is a good thing, but the core of the legislation was already in place before this bill was passed - the issue has always been enforcement rather than not having the legal powers to take action.

Thinking of some of the songs which are covered by the above criteria, stadiums across Scotland face being a lot quieter in the coming years.

Last one out, turn out the lights.

Edit: excuse the quote being all in bold, but it pasted as bold (despite the original source not being bold) and would not let me change it to normal text.

[Mikey]

SSN saying that someone has been arrested for posting up threats against Neil Lennon. Can't find an article about it yet.

[Mikey]

SSN saying that someone has been arrested for posting up threats against Neil Lennon. Can't find an article about it yet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17262943

[whiskyhibby]

They don't need to look much further than the EEN boards IMHO the amount of poisonous guff on there by Yams is unbelieveable

[oconnors_strip]

SSN saying that someone has been arrested for posting up threats against Neil Lennon. Can't find an article about it yet.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/man-arrested-under-new-offensive-behaviour-law-1-2154481

[Hibercelona]

The second offence relates to the communication of threats of serious harm or which are intended to stir up religious hatred, whether sent by post or posted on the internet.

You've never read on here anyone saying nothing along those lines against 'Huns' or 'dirty orange bxxxxx'

I've seen the "Hun" word being used a fair bit (having used it myself plenty of times) which has absolutely nothing to do with religion BTW.

I haven't however seen anything on here describing them as "orange so and so's" or anything that could be deemed as anti-protestant in any way. I'm sure theres many protestant Hibs fans who post on here and they certainly wouldn't stand for it and neither would the moderators.

If anything, we all have a dig at eachother far more often than anything or anybody else. :wink: But very rarely do we ever see any posts related to personal threats.