PDA

View Full Version : Question Attitude of Hibs fans to a "Phoenix" Rangers



JeMeSouviens
28-02-2012, 02:07 PM
With Rangers looking ever more likely to go from administration to liquidation and the media campaign to get a potential resurrected new company straight back into the SPL already in full swing, I thought it might be useful to have a gauge of Hibs fans' collective opinion on what should happen to them.

Does the SPL need Rangers? Let's assume a hypothetical scenario where they have been liquidated and a newco has sprung up with agreement to use Ibrox and a squad in place. We have the choice of allowing them into the SPL or cancelling relegation from the current SPL, promoting teams normally and NewHuns would have to apply to the SFL to get back in at Div 3. Let's assume Hibs would lose £1M from the absence of 2 Hun visits and a drastic renegotiation of the TV deal, ie. we'd have to cut our wage bill by approx. 15%, and we can assume the rest of the SPL would be similar.

blackpoolhibs
28-02-2012, 02:24 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.

Saorsa
28-02-2012, 02:26 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.:agree:

one day maybe...
28-02-2012, 02:32 PM
For me if they go into liquidtion then they have to suffer the same fate as any other club would have to.
So for me that is reapplying to join the SFL.
The 11-1 majority vote would then be abolished and every club would have the same rights as the other.
An even distribution of any TV and sponsorship money the SPL generates.

jdships
28-02-2012, 03:07 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.

:thumbsup::agree:

Sylar
28-02-2012, 03:16 PM
There is no way they can be allowed to immediately rejoin the SPL under a new guise. Imagine it - we get to the end of the season and the club who ultimately finish bottom get relegated, having fought long and hard within a manageable financial budget, only to be expelled from the SPL back to the SFL1, whilst a club who are feeling the effects of seasons and seasons of, quite bluntly, cheating, are spared from expulsion, based on nothing other than sympathy towards a "great Scottish institution".

If Rangers finished bottom of the SPL, this "great institution" would face relegation like any other club, so they are bound by the same solvency laws of any other SPL club and for that reason, I'd want to see them forced to reapply.

Having said the above though, if Rangers DID ever finish bottom of the SPL, no doubt this is when a restructuring would take place and they'd be saved regardless. Perhaps I'm not particularly confident that what I would like to see happen and what will happen are the same thing.

--------
28-02-2012, 03:34 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.


Absolutely. Rules are rules.


:rules:

HUTCHYHIBBY
28-02-2012, 03:34 PM
Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

That sums it up for me BH.

essexhibee
28-02-2012, 03:45 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.

:aok: In. A. Nutshell.

James70
28-02-2012, 03:52 PM
The same rules should apply to everybody but I have a sneaking suspicion that a way will be found to ensure they keep their place in the SPL.

kennyh
28-02-2012, 04:03 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.


I think many fans feel this BH. I have been thinking about this and my stance would never again set foot inside Ibrox and never attend any match they are involded in under any circumstances. They must be punished for their financial mismanagement ~ CHEATING !! They have to be demoted and I dont necessarily think that should save Hibs or Pars from relegation either. I would let 2 come up from the 1st Div.

Famous5forever
28-02-2012, 04:10 PM
With Rangers looking ever more likely to go from administration to liquidation and the media campaign to get a potential resurrected new company straight back into the SPL already in full swing, I thought it might be useful to have a gauge of Hibs fans' collective opinion on what should happen to them.

Does the SPL need Rangers? Let's assume a hypothetical scenario where they have been liquidated and a newco has sprung up with agreement to use Ibrox and a squad in place. We have the choice of allowing them into the SPL or cancelling relegation from the current SPL, promoting teams normally and NewHuns would have to apply to the SFL to get back in at Div 3. Let's assume Hibs would lose £1M from the absence of 2 Hun visits and a drastic renegotiation of the TV deal, ie. we'd have to cut our wage bill by approx. 15%, and we can assume the rest of the SPL would be similar.

I Voted no they have cheated and should be punished.

basehibby
28-02-2012, 04:16 PM
If a Pheonix Rangers were allowed straight back into the SPL they might as well just wind up the whole shooting match straight away as the sporting integrity of the competition would have been proven beyond all doubt to be non-existant.

All the Rangers apologists in the media and politics go on about sponsorship and TV issues as if that was all that mattered when nothing could be further from the truth - sponsors and TV companies have come and gone over the years and there is still a Scottish League. In reality they are just showing themselves up to be as dirty and corrupt as Rangers themselves - they should all hang their heads in shame and follow Rangers out of the door.

ScottB
28-02-2012, 04:21 PM
A message must be sent, clubs must be encouraged to follow our example and make the necessary (and painful) cuts to come back from the brink.

If 'New Rangers' get straight back into the SPL, then you have a legal precedent for any future SPL club that gets itself into difficulty to simply follow their lead.


As others have said, you may as well just jack the whole thing in in that situation, you will simultaneously alienate the fans of every league club across the country, and not just the SPL ones either. Most other clubs have been through tough financial times for one reason or another, letting Rangers return scot free would be a slap in the face to us all. They must start again in Division 3 or the game in this country will die a death.

Jack
28-02-2012, 04:45 PM
I voted no as well as everyone before me :greengrin

It would be a travesty of justice.

But what if the SPL was to be made 2 leagues of 16; as has already been suggested elsewhere? What then?

leither17
28-02-2012, 04:48 PM
97 votes and all saying no it would make me think twice about another season ticket if cheats are allowed to stay in our league if they go out the box

Saorsa
28-02-2012, 04:49 PM
I voted no as well as everyone before me :greengrin

It would be a travesty of justice.

But what if the SPL was to be made 2 leagues of 16; as has already been suggested elsewhere? What then?Then they still go in at the bottom of what's left of the SFL and the two leagues are made of 32 other teams.

allezsauzee
28-02-2012, 04:50 PM
They should get the same treatment as any other team. They should apply to be admitted to the SFL...although if Spartans were applying to join as well I'd be inclined to vote for them to join instead

sadtom
28-02-2012, 04:50 PM
I'd also like to add that, unless they found some other way of repaying all their debt (not just a percentage thereof) that both ipox and murray park must be sold to ensure all the dues are paid.
The training facility and stadium are assets and must be treated as such.
They must not be allowed to only partially clear what they owe, then re-emerge (in whatever division) with the existing stadium and training park in place.

NORTHERNHIBBY
28-02-2012, 04:53 PM
If they were to be let back in, then they should have to pay an entry fee. 5 million pounds each to the teams in the SPL just now. A million each to the SFL one teams, 500K to the Second and 250K to the Third. That would compensate all of them for missing out on possible moves up. I would however, not include Motherwell, Livingston, Dundee nor Airdrie [United], for obvious reasons.

IWasThere2016
28-02-2012, 04:55 PM
They are cheats. Dirty cheats, and they smell (fact). Given the debt to Arabs, Pars and Yams - I'd expect the 11 remaining clubs to close ranks and force them into the SFL. This also however assumes that collectively the SPL Chairmen have a spine and that must remain a doubt.

sadtom
28-02-2012, 04:57 PM
It has to be said though, the idea of the sticky buns being refered to as a 'rising phoenix' makes me :faf::greengrin:faf::greengrin
Wonder if the RPRFB would get an invite to der huns new gaff to play a few numbers???:wink:

Saorsa
28-02-2012, 05:00 PM
It has to be said though, the idea of the sticky buns being refered to as a 'rising phoenix' makes me :faf::greengrin:faf::greengrin
Wonder if the RPRFB would get an invite to der huns new gaff to play a few numbers???:wink::greengrin

Dashing Bob S
28-02-2012, 05:11 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.

You shouldn't be allowed to vote in this poll, as you just want that chick to come back begging on her knees. That's the difference between you and me; I like her strong, proud, confident and 'Aye Ready' so I'm voting yes.

She could do with being a bit more 'loyal' though.

The_Todd
28-02-2012, 05:15 PM
I can only echo everyone else. To allow Rangers to windup, start again and go straight back in at the top not only shows tolerance of financial foul play in order to dominate the domestic scene but is a actually clear approval of such methods. It's hard enough following a non OF team knowing that realistically you won't win anything in any given season as it is, without throwing in the fact Rangers are allowed to openly cheat their way to the top.

The governing bodies of the sport have a big decision to make and they have to be brave.

greenginger
28-02-2012, 05:23 PM
If Rangers are liquidated I see the SPL 1 and SPL 2 being pushed through with the Huns starting in SPL 2. A season on the noughty step for them is the most we can expect.

Of course they will miss out on Euro football for 3 years

The_Todd
28-02-2012, 05:26 PM
If Rangers are liquidated I see the SPL 1 and SPL 2 being pushed through with the Huns starting in SPL 2. A season on the noughty step for them is the most we can expect.

Of course they will miss out on Euro football for 3 years

The SFL would likely not be chuffed with losing a whole division of teams at shuch short notice. And we'd have to agree how promotion \ relegation would work from SPL2 to the new SFL1. The SFL would have no real reason to get everything sorted out in a flash so suspect a new league setup wouldn't be finalised for next season even if they started right now.

Ozyhibby
28-02-2012, 05:27 PM
It's not just the insolvency problem that rangers face. Recent revelations about players having second contracts and having contracts with parent companies are in clear breach of SFA and Uefa rules.
Considering Spartans were kicked out the Scottish cup for one ineligible player it's hard to see how they could forgive Rangers fielding whole teams of ineligible players over the last fifteen years.
How this is dealt with by the SFA is crucial to the integrity of the Scottish game.

greenginger
28-02-2012, 05:35 PM
The SFL would likely not be chuffed with losing a whole division of teams at shuch short notice. And we'd have to agree how promotion \ relegation would work from SPL2 to the new SFL1. The SFL would have no real reason to get everything sorted out in a flash so suspect a new league setup wouldn't be finalised for next season even if they started right now.


A small cut in the T V revenues for the rump of the SFL that left will smooth that one through.:agree:

ancient hibee
28-02-2012, 05:54 PM
It would do wonders for the finances of the SFL clubs-so things should stay as they are with new Rangers going to SFL 3.

However Rangers won't go into liquidation.

Billy McKirdy
28-02-2012, 06:32 PM
All this talk of Rangers going into liquidation is meaningless, no matter the rules in place to punish normal clubs for being liquidated, this won't happen in the case of this so-called national institution, all the football authorities, politicians and media will close ranks in spite of the opinions of the rest of the Scottish football community, it stinks but that is exactly what will happen as far as I'm concerned, what happens after that remains to be seen.

Viva_Palmeiras
28-02-2012, 06:32 PM
I voted no, let them apply to the SFL. If they are allowed to gain entry back into the SPL, we will then have given the green light for any club to flout the rules, pay over the odds wages and cheat their way to better results than they should be getting.

It would also be a kick in the knackers for all those clubs who do adhere to the rules. Letting them straight back in would kill it for me, and i'd asume others?

What would be the point of Scottish football if the richest clubs cant win fairly, and are basically allowed to cheat without punishment?

The game would be over if that were to happen imo.

Would the lawyers of Dundee, Livi and the defunct Gretna not have grounds to make a claim ?

Eyrie
28-02-2012, 08:05 PM
As has been stated before, they should be forced to apply for the vacant spot in the SFL created by their departure from the SPL.

And whatever happens to them forms a precedent for Hearts.

MCameron
28-02-2012, 08:39 PM
Well this is the type of message our board should be sitting up and taking note of. I realise it's anly a small % of our support but already there is a clear view being expressed by Hibernian supporters. I'd expect the same result to come out if this were posted on most other SPL fan forums. Maybe then the boards of these clubs would also see the clear feeling from supporters that we are not happy to see cheats get away with this any longer.

ginger_rice
28-02-2012, 08:51 PM
How much support did we get from the West when we nearly disappeared from the Scottish game? How much support did we get for the proposed New Hibs who we were going to watch playing on public parks...did the Hun hordes speak up for us getting straight back into the then Premier Division? No didn't think so.

So it's a big fat no from me too for them getting back in, I'd make them start in the junior leagues.

Killiehibbie
28-02-2012, 09:13 PM
If the SPL voted to allow them back in I don't think i'd be back.

sparky
28-02-2012, 09:16 PM
Sorry if been mentioned elsewhere but would a 'New Rangers' retain the historic titles? Don't just mean the last few years when they have been cheating but their entire record from their founding.

weecounty hibby
28-02-2012, 09:31 PM
I would be finished with football if they did go into liquidation and were allowed straight back in to the SPL. It would just prove how corrupt and biased Scottish football really is if this was to happen. They cheated so let them be punished accordingly.

Viva_Palmeiras
28-02-2012, 09:31 PM
How much support did we get from the West when we nearly disappeared from the Scottish game? How much support did we get for the proposed New Hibs who we were going to watch playing on public parks...did the Hun hordes speak up for us getting straight back into the then Premier Division? No didn't think so.

So it's a big fat no from me too for them getting back in, I'd make them start in the junior leagues.

And as I recall the sfa sfl would not comment on our situation (merger) it had been resolved no use what ever to Hibs. May all the bad karma to those involved rain on them

Hibernia&Alba
28-02-2012, 09:34 PM
All this talk of Rangers going into liquidation is meaningless, no matter the rules in place to punish normal clubs for being liquidated, this won't happen in the case of this so-called national institution, all the football authorities, politicians and media will close ranks in spite of the opinions of the rest of the Scottish football community, it stinks but that is exactly what will happen as far as I'm concerned, what happens after that remains to be seen.

It would be an absolute disgrace if the rules were changed to accommodate a liquidated Huns. Every club in the country must then insist that as a new club Rangers 2012 start at the bottom and work their way up. 'So called national institution' is the correct description. National embarrassment is what everybody else knows them by. No kid gloves from the SFA because it's 'The Rangers'.

Mikeystewart
28-02-2012, 09:50 PM
From what I gathered from the rules (please correct me if I am wrong)

Any admittance to the SPL will be the result of the 12 member clubs voting them through. Meaning from a hibs point of view it would Rod/Scott Lindsay who decides the hibs vote. I would assume the 11-1 rule will be in place. It will be very interesting in those circumstances to see who votes to let Rangers 2012 back into the SPL and will the majority of club chairmen vote based on the consensus from fans or based on obsession with the balance books? If it comes down to the latter then all I can see is a Rangers 2012 being re-admitted straight back into the SPL.

This is all assuming they go into liquidation, I also feel anyone who has a vested interest in the club that ultimately goes down will have something to say about letting Rangers 2012 straight in, as in the case of liquidation I believe there should be no relegation and the Phoenix club should HAVE to apply to the SFL third division vacancy.

in short, there is no rule that says a team cannot be put straight into the SPL, It all comes down to the votes of the 12 current SPl member clubs.

as i said at the start please correct me if I am wrong

down-the-slope
28-02-2012, 09:59 PM
Some great song / wind up.

Instead of IF you know your history...we could sign..YOU have got no history :greengrin they would have no cup wins / no SPL titles etc etc and we should ensure this is adhered to and mentioned (and challenged if not) on every chance possible

Jack
28-02-2012, 10:02 PM
Who would be the 12 member clubs if they go into liquidation?

There would surely only be 11 member clubs. This gets even more complicated in the summer with which relegated, or not relegated club, and the top SFL club vying for their futures.

HUTCHYHIBBY
28-02-2012, 10:03 PM
Well this is the type of message our board should be sitting up and taking note of. I realise it's anly a small % of our support but already there is a clear view being expressed by Hibernian supporters. I'd expect the same result to come out if this were posted on most other SPL fan forums. Maybe then the boards of these clubs would also see the clear feeling from supporters that we are not happy to see cheats get away with this any longer.

This is basically the crux of the matter as far as the vast majority of non Rangers fans are concerned, but, instead of stating this most of the Scottish media seem to be more interested in the well being of that lot.

HUTCHYHIBBY
28-02-2012, 10:09 PM
If the SPL voted to allow them back in I don't think i'd be back.

I watch Hibs a lot less frequently than I used to, but, I think that this as the old saying goes would be the straw that breaks the camels back.

To think I very rarely missed a Hibs game during Rangers 9 in a row run is quite galling, but, the press digging out the likes of Butcher and Hateley to tell us what a great shame it is is a particular boot in the balls. It might not have been the wages that Rangers managed to pay that tempted them to Ibrox though!

Hibercelona
28-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Scottish football died a long time ago. You can be sure they'll do everything they can to ensure Rangers stay in this league.

ScottB
28-02-2012, 10:21 PM
Sorry if been mentioned elsewhere but would a 'New Rangers' retain the historic titles? Don't just mean the last few years when they have been cheating but their entire record from their founding.

When Fiorentina went bust they returned as 'Florentina Viola' at the bottom of the Italian structure with no history. They later managed to buy the rights to the name Fiorentina and changed the name, so Rangers could certainly do that. Whether a team could essentially 'buy' the historic record of a defunct club I'd have to think that unlikely, not least because presumably HMRC and the other creditors would resume going after them as the thin veil of claiming to be a different business would be torn apart...

ScottB
28-02-2012, 10:25 PM
From what I gathered from the rules (please correct me if I am wrong)

Any admittance to the SPL will be the result of the 12 member clubs voting them through. Meaning from a hibs point of view it would Rod/Scott Lindsay who decides the hibs vote. I would assume the 11-1 rule will be in place. It will be very interesting in those circumstances to see who votes to let Rangers 2012 back into the SPL and will the majority of club chairmen vote based on the consensus from fans or based on obsession with the balance books? If it comes down to the latter then all I can see is a Rangers 2012 being re-admitted straight back into the SPL.

This is all assuming they go into liquidation, I also feel anyone who has a vested interest in the club that ultimately goes down will have something to say about letting Rangers 2012 straight in, as in the case of liquidation I believe there should be no relegation and the Phoenix club should HAVE to apply to the SFL third division vacancy.

in short, there is no rule that says a team cannot be put straight into the SPL, It all comes down to the votes of the 12 current SPl member clubs.

as i said at the start please correct me if I am wrong

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this goes out the window if they end up being liquidated before the season ends, as they would be unable to fulfil their fixtures and that does lead to automatic relegation does it not?

Mikeystewart
28-02-2012, 10:26 PM
Who would be the 12 member clubs if they go into liquidation?

There would surely only be 11 member clubs. This gets even more complicated in the summer with which relegated, or not relegated club, and the top SFL club vying for their futures.

If there was liquidation and no relegation Ross county(assuming the win DIV1) would essentially take Rangers place and as it stands Dunfermline would stay up.

Viva_Palmeiras
28-02-2012, 10:27 PM
All this talk of Rangers going into liquidation is meaningless, no matter the rules in place to punish normal clubs for being liquidated, this won't happen in the case of this so-called national institution, all the football authorities, politicians and media will close ranks in spite of the opinions of the rest of the Scottish football community, it stinks but that is exactly what will happen as far as I'm concerned, what happens after that remains to be seen.

I hope macaskill and Salmond don't talk about justice and fair play and think they can talk with credence if they pull the strings on this one.

Mikeystewart
28-02-2012, 10:29 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this goes out the window if they end up being liquidated before the season ends, as they would be unable to fulfil their fixtures and that does lead to automatic relegation does it not?

Quite possibly that would clear the path for Rangers to return straight into the spl as it would be quite complicated I would imagine to promote 2 teams from the First Division second etc. Maybe that's the plan.....

ScottB
28-02-2012, 10:40 PM
Quite possibly that would clear the path for Rangers to return straight into the spl as it would be quite complicated I would imagine to promote 2 teams from the First Division second etc. Maybe that's the plan.....

Surely though that would be Rangers down and nobody else though, if the team is still in existence for a time but unable to play fixtures, then both Gretna and Livingston are the examples, both were relegated to division 3. Of course Gretna then folded completely and never took its place, but still.

In that circumstance I could see whoever was second in the first division mounting a legal challenge, maybe even Livingston, hell any other clubs could do it. Rangers will not only have to get the other SPL sides to agree, but most likely the SFL sides too, otherwise you could easily spend years tied up in legal battles.


I would imagine there's a fair chance 'New Rangers' would return to the SPL, but in order to do so they will have to give something to the other clubs, be it compensation payments, starting on negative points, voting with the majority opinion in the league, paying back the clubs their previous existence owed money to and so on and so on. Hell in the end it might be a lot less painless for the new team to just start in division 3 or buy a smaller side higher up!

Mikeystewart
28-02-2012, 10:44 PM
Surely though that would be Rangers down and nobody else though, if the team is still in existence for a time but unable to play fixtures, then both Gretna and Livingston are the examples, both were relegated to division 3. Of course Gretna then folded completely and never took its place, but still.

In that circumstance I could see whoever was second in the first division mounting a legal challenge, maybe even Livingston, hell any other clubs could do it. Rangers will not only have to get the other SPL sides to agree, but most likely the SFL sides too, otherwise you could easily spend years tied up in legal battles.


I would imagine there's a fair chance 'New Rangers' would return to the SPL, but in order to do so they will have to give something to the other clubs, be it compensation payments, starting on negative points, voting with the majority opinion in the league, paying back the clubs their previous existence owed money to and so on and so on. Hell in the end it might be a lot less painless for the new team to just start in division 3 or buy a smaller side higher up!

I see this as being the best possible outcome from my point of view, but I'm a bit cynical around the whole situation like most I imagine.

.Sean.
28-02-2012, 10:49 PM
If the SPL voted to allow them back in I don't think i'd be back.
You wouldn't be alone mate - I reckon it would be the final straw for 1000's of proper Football supporters all over Scotland.


Thing is, we're kidding ourselves to think the SPL will do anything other than bend over backwards to assist the 'Great Scottish Institution' that is Glasgow Rangers FC.

jgl07
28-02-2012, 11:00 PM
Sorry if been mentioned elsewhere but would a 'New Rangers' retain the historic titles? Don't just mean the last few years when they have been cheating but their entire record from their founding.

The Pheonix club could presumably buy the crest, logo and history of Rangers from the receiver. That could include the contents of the trophy cabinet.

Unless Celtic outbid them?

Jack
28-02-2012, 11:57 PM
The whole thing is a can of worms that's just opening.

I also think UEFA, and possibly FIFA, could get really interested and involved if the contracts these players signed were dodgy. Remember UEFA weren't happy, to the point of kicking the Swiss out of European football until Sion were docked points for every game their ineligible players played in. I wonder if they will want their CL and Europa prize money back if its found 'ineligible' players played in these competitions :-)

ScottB
29-02-2012, 12:32 AM
The whole thing is a can of worms that's just opening.

I also think UEFA, and possibly FIFA, could get really interested and involved if the contracts these players signed were dodgy. Remember UEFA weren't happy, to the point of kicking the Swiss out of European football until Sion were docked points for every game their ineligible players played in. I wonder if they will want their CL and Europa prize money back if its found 'ineligible' players played in these competitions :-)

Hopefully they do take an interest, because outside scrutiny is the only thing that will guarantee the SFA / SPL do things fully above board.

As has been pointed out, if Rangers have been using dodgy contracts, then at least some high ups in these bodies were well aware of this. To me UEFA need to be keeping a very close eye on all this...

basehibby
29-02-2012, 01:24 AM
Sorry if been mentioned elsewhere but would a 'New Rangers' retain the historic titles? Don't just mean the last few years when they have been cheating but their entire record from their founding.

Going by our own precedent yes they would....

"Mismanagement over the next few years led to the club becoming homeless and it ceased operating during 1891.[9] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-crampsey-8) A reformed club was established and they acquired a lease on a site in late 1892 that was to become known as Easter Road (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Easter_Road). Hibernian played its first match at Easter Road on 4 February 1893.[22] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-New_Beginnings-21) Despite this interruption, the club today views the period since 1875 as one continued history and therefore counts the honours won between 1875 and 1891, including the 1887 Scottish Cup.[23] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-m256-22)[24] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-hibs_honours-23) The club were admitted to the Scottish Football League (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Scottish_Football_League) in 1893, although they had to win the Second Division twice before being elected into the First Division in 1895.[9] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-crampsey-8)"

Quoted from wikipedia

I'm quite happy for that precedent to stand as long as they stick to the bit in bold as well :greengrin

Vini1875
29-02-2012, 01:33 AM
No, simply on principle.

However the figures being bandied about regarding the huns worth to us I think are simply way wide of the mark. There is no way we make £1M from two visits of the huns.

gate money assuming 4000 of them paying £28 each = £112,000
TV money = £ 80,000
a pie and bovril each (which they wouldn't buy) = £ 16,000
a programme each (which they wouldn't buy) = £ 8,000
total per game = £216,000 (which has been over estimated)

grand total (two games) = £432,000

This is without deducting policing, stewards, money to caterers, less Hibbys in our end who avoid these games. Also we would have a better chance of cup success and higher league placing without them. To me the financial argument for keeping them around does not stack up. Maybe I am missing something, but how are the huns putting anything even close to £1M in the coffers of Hibernian per season?

The Green Goblin
29-02-2012, 02:18 AM
It's the certainty of the very real threat of a serious fans backlash against the Scottish game which is probably the only thing which will give the SPL pause for thought.

They will have to balance sneaking the huns back in against the prospect of tens of thousands of fans kicking up a fuss the scope of which they can't imagine, predict or handle, and the potential subsequent impact of an absence of money coming in from all across the country when fans stop going to games in protest or mount other kinds of challenges over a very long period of time. You are looking at utter chaos and acrimony, taking place for years to come, which they will then have to deal with.

The perceived integrity of the game in Scotland does not seem to be their priority, nor do the feelings of the fans of every other club, but keeping the money flowing through the gates IS, and if they are made aware of just how badly people would react, and the scale in which that could happen, then it might force them to sacrifice Rangers' SPL status and make a decision for the greater good. That will only happen if they feel they have no other option, if their hand is forced, more's the pity and shame on them for that being the case.

The worst thing about all of this, is that we shouldn't even be having this discussion. What exactly is there to even debate/discuss here and why is there any doubt about what has to happen? The rules are there and are the same for every club. If one club cheats over many years, even though they are already in a more favourable position than the majority of the others, don't forget, then why are people even talking about how to help them basically get away with it? That is the real outrage here.

Steve20
29-02-2012, 07:42 AM
Some great song / wind up.

Instead of IF you know your history...we could sign..YOU have got no history :greengrin they would have no cup wins / no SPL titles etc etc and we should ensure this is adhered to and mentioned (and challenged if not) on every chance possible

They would just be officially under a different name. They'd still be the same club. Trying to claim they wouldn't have all the leagues, cups etc is a nonsense. If I changed my name, I'd still be the same person.

I must be the only Hibs fan that wants them to stay in business.

Hibernia Na Eir
29-02-2012, 07:43 AM
let the axe swing today. now lets just hope the dirty Huns perish into liquidation.

Hibernia Na Eir
29-02-2012, 07:44 AM
who are the 4 voters of question 1 then?

Keith_M
29-02-2012, 07:52 AM
Given that a Phoenix is a bird, where's the "they should be strangled, plucked, stuffed and eaten for dinner" option?



I only voted the second option because there's nothing more severe. My preference would be to put them in the juniors.

R'Albin
29-02-2012, 08:03 AM
This thread is almost as one-sided as a "Calderwood stay or go?" thread :greengrin

Part/Time Supporter
29-02-2012, 08:27 AM
They would just be officially under a different name. They'd still be the same club. Trying to claim they wouldn't have all the leagues, cups etc is a nonsense. If I changed my name, I'd still be the same person.

I must be the only Hibs fan that wants them to stay in business.

No, a better analogy would be if you died, and a new born baby then assumed your identity.

What you're talking about would be more comparable to Ferranti Thistle / Meadowbank Thistle / Livingston. Same organisation, but changed their identity.

Part/Time Supporter
29-02-2012, 08:33 AM
Going by our own precedent yes they would....

"Mismanagement over the next few years led to the club becoming homeless and it ceased operating during 1891.[9] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-crampsey-8) A reformed club was established and they acquired a lease on a site in late 1892 that was to become known as Easter Road (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Easter_Road). Hibernian played its first match at Easter Road on 4 February 1893.[22] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-New_Beginnings-21) Despite this interruption, the club today views the period since 1875 as one continued history and therefore counts the honours won between 1875 and 1891, including the 1887 Scottish Cup.[23] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-m256-22)[24] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-hibs_honours-23) The club were admitted to the Scottish Football League (http://www.hibs.net/wiki/Scottish_Football_League) in 1893, although they had to win the Second Division twice before being elected into the First Division in 1895.[9] (http://www.hibs.net/#cite_note-crampsey-8)"

Quoted from wikipedia

I'm quite happy for that precedent to stand as long as they stick to the bit in bold as well :greengrin

The Hibs 1891 situation is different in the sense that this pre-dated Hibs being a limited company (Hibernian FC Ltd was not formed until 1903*). What happened to the "old" Hibs would be more like if a club disbanded but then got back together a wee while later. Whereas if the Rangers limited company ceased trading and was wound up, there would be a definite interruption and a distinct change of their legal personality.

* http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/3b59e2c31e642a7cd3bd459beba3af52/compdetails

Viva_Palmeiras
29-02-2012, 08:38 AM
Given that a Phoenix is a bird, where's the "they should be strangled, plucked, stuffed and eaten for dinner" option?



I only voted the second option because there's nothing more severe. My preference would be to put them in the juniors.

Kill 2 OF birds with one stone Not an option unfortunately.
Maybe just kill the one with two stones ;)

dangermouse
29-02-2012, 08:48 AM
No, simply on principle.

However the figures being bandied about regarding the huns worth to us I think are simply way wide of the mark. There is no way we make £1M from two visits of the huns.

gate money assuming 4000 of them paying £28 each = £112,000
TV money = £ 80,000
a pie and bovril each (which they wouldn't buy) = £ 16,000
a programme each (which they wouldn't buy) = £ 8,000
total per game = £216,000 (which has been over estimated)

grand total (two games) = £432,000

This is without deducting policing, stewards, money to caterers, less Hibbys in our end who avoid these games. Also we would have a better chance of cup success and higher league placing without them. To me the financial argument for keeping them around does not stack up. Maybe I am missing something, but how are the huns putting anything even close to £1M in the coffers of Hibernian per season?

I think the original poster was taking into accout the TV deal for the whole season as without der Hun this would be vastly reduced.

StevieC
29-02-2012, 08:57 AM
What happened with Airdrie?

Did they keep their history?

JeMeSouviens
29-02-2012, 09:15 AM
Maybe I am missing something, but how are the huns putting anything even close to £1M in the coffers of Hibernian per season?

I chose a fairly pessimistic scenario deliberately so people were viewing the question in the light of it having a serious impact on Hibs' finances, at least in the short term.

JeMeSouviens
29-02-2012, 09:21 AM
What happened with Airdrie?

Did they keep their history?

No, they actually took over Clydebank's history. Airdrie United is legally the same entity as the old Clydebank FC, just moved to Airdrie and playing in Airdrie like colours. Airdrieonians died and ironically, it was Der Hun that put the final nail in the coffin


Ibrox chairman David Murray applied for an interdict, on behalf of his company Carnegie, for a debt of around £30,000 owed by Airdrie.

Mr Murray said: "I feel very sorry for Airdrie and their supporters but we're running a business. We have given them repeated warnings and felt they were playing on our good nature."

Part/Time Supporter
29-02-2012, 09:21 AM
What happened with Airdrie?

Did they keep their history?

Nope.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/6041285d407f2f91fe950efc5ca030cc/compdetails

founded in 1965 as Clydebank FC Ltd

CropleyWasGod
29-02-2012, 09:43 AM
Nope.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/6041285d407f2f91fe950efc5ca030cc/compdetails

founded in 1965 as Clydebank FC Ltd

... who in turn were formed as an offshoot of East Stirling.

Part/Time Supporter
29-02-2012, 09:59 AM
... who in turn were formed as an offshoot of East Stirling.

Clydebank FC Ltd took over East Stirling and moved the club to Clydebank. The courts then invalidated the takeover a year or so later and the club moved back to Falkirk. Clydebank set up their own team and got into the SFL soon after.

Kojock
29-02-2012, 10:33 AM
They would just be officially under a different name. They'd still be the same club. Trying to claim they wouldn't have all the leagues, cups etc is a nonsense. If I changed my name, I'd still be the same person.

I must be the only Hibs fan that wants them to stay in business.

Serious question Steve, What are your reasons for keeping Rangers in the SPL ?

basehibby
29-02-2012, 11:19 AM
It's the certainty of the very real threat of a serious fans backlash against the Scottish game which is probably the only thing which will give the SPL pause for thought.

They will have to balance sneaking the huns back in against the prospect of tens of thousands of fans kicking up a fuss the scope of which they can't imagine, predict or handle, and the potential subsequent impact of an absence of money coming in from all across the country when fans stop going to games in protest or mount other kinds of challenges over a very long period of time. You are looking at utter chaos and acrimony, taking place for years to come, which they will then have to deal with.

The perceived integrity of the game in Scotland does not seem to be their priority, nor do the feelings of the fans of every other club, but keeping the money flowing through the gates IS, and if they are made aware of just how badly people would react, and the scale in which that could happen, then it might force them to sacrifice Rangers' SPL status and make a decision for the greater good. That will only happen if they feel they have no other option, if their hand is forced, more's the pity and shame on them for that being the case.

The worst thing about all of this, is that we shouldn't even be having this discussion. What exactly is there to even debate/discuss here and why is there any doubt about what has to happen? The rules are there and are the same for every club. If one club cheats over many years, even though they are already in a more favourable position than the majority of the others, don't forget, then why are people even talking about how to help them basically get away with it? That is the real outrage here.

:agree: I think the fans of all the SPL clubs need to get together on this one (assuming the above poll is representative accross the board which I suspect it will be). An appropriate sanction would be to boycott ALL Rangers games home and away and to take the SPL to court (maybe under the trades description act - for falsely impersonating a sporting organisation) if their brass necked plan to cheat Rangers straight back into the SPL was approved.
It would also be appropriate to make it clear that the supporters would have ZERO confidence in the board of any SPL football club that was prepared to aid and abet Rangers in their efforts to cheat the whole of Scottish Football not to mention the UK's taxpayers.

basehibby
29-02-2012, 11:25 AM
The Hibs 1891 situation is different in the sense that this pre-dated Hibs being a limited company (Hibernian FC Ltd was not formed until 1903*). What happened to the "old" Hibs would be more like if a club disbanded but then got back together a wee while later. Whereas if the Rangers limited company ceased trading and was wound up, there would be a definite interruption and a distinct change of their legal personality.

* http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/3b59e2c31e642a7cd3bd459beba3af52/compdetails

I think the more appropriate part of our own precedent is the fact that Hibs were given ZERO sympathy and not only had to re-apply to start back at the bottom but had to actually win the second division TWICE before being readmitted to the top table - this despite the fact that the old Hibs had won the Scottish Cup and beaten English champs Preston North End to become nominal World Champs only a few years before.

It seems that reputations and achievements counted for nothing back then - don't see why the Huns should get special treatment.

Kato
29-02-2012, 11:51 AM
And as I recall the sfa sfl would not comment on our situation (merger) it had been resolved no use what ever to Hibs. May all the bad karma to those involved rain on them

I'm trying to remember the guys name and it's escaping me for the moment but whoever was the head of the SFL at the time was interviewed during the takeover bid and was asked about Hibs plight. He did answer but it was along the lines of "nothing we can do", "business is business" etc. For some reason I think the guy was Chairman of Morton but I might be wrong.

Luckily for us Mercer lost the business case and the cultural case to kill Hibs off but it was all down to ourselves (inc. STF in that) but nobody lifted a finger to help us.

Peevemor
29-02-2012, 12:18 PM
If they went into liquidation, it would be highly attractive for an investor to buy a debt free Rangers (Ibrox, Murray Park, name, goodwill, etc.) for say £30-40m (figure plucked out of the air). This would probably be fairly to the creditors too.

If this happened, they could easily start in the 3rd division and work their way back up in successive seasons (whilst operating at a profit). This would be a mere slap on the wrist in the big scheme of things and would be the very least they deserve IMHO.

Dinkydoo
29-02-2012, 12:28 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Rangers go into liquidation and permitted entry straight back into the SPL then what would be the point of any club operating within thier financial means.

I voted No. :greengrin

Jack
29-02-2012, 12:32 PM
If they went into liquidation, it would be highly attractive for an investor to buy a debt free Rangers (Ibrox, Murray Park, name, goodwill, etc.) for say £30-40m (figure plucked out of the air). This would probably be fairly to the creditors too.

If this happened, they could easily start in the 3rd division and work their way back up in successive seasons (whilst operating at a profit). This would be a mere slap on the wrist in the big scheme of things and would be the very least they deserve IMHO.

Given their debt is somewhere in the region of £100+m do you think its right then to cheat at a level of around 60%? ie paying only 40% of what they owe?

I'll see how far I get offering them something like £11 the next time we play through there and see where I'm sitting. Outside I wouldn't wonder - which is where they should end up!

Moulin Yarns
29-02-2012, 12:44 PM
As well as possibly boycotting Rangers games if they are saved and voted back into the SPL, I would advocate every non-Rangers fan shoulc cancel their Sky subscription to make the point that the TV deal is not important to the fans of other clubs.

Peevemor
29-02-2012, 12:44 PM
Given their debt is somewhere in the region of £100+m do you think its right then to cheat at a level of around 60%? ie paying only 40% of what they owe?

I'll see how far I get offering them something like £11 the next time we play through there and see where I'm sitting. Outside I wouldn't wonder - which is where they should end up!

No argument from me on that point and, as I said, I plucked the £30-40m figure out of the air. A debt free Rangers may well be worth more than that to those looking to make long term investment.

PatHead
29-02-2012, 01:13 PM
I voted no, not that I want to have a go at anyone who voted yes, but can anyone (other than Blue is the Colour:devil:) explain why they voted yes? I can't understand any reason anyone would want Rangers to walk back to the top end of Scottish football after cheating for a number of years. Would love to hear a balanced logical answer as to why they should be a special case?

Seveno
29-02-2012, 01:25 PM
There would be a record crowd for a SFL Third Division match when Glasgow Rangers 2012 F.C. play Heart of West Lothian F.C.

I might even go, just to laugh. :na na:

Bad Martini
29-02-2012, 02:18 PM
Why is there nae option that says they should all be packed into a big boat and drifted to some godforsaken uninhabited island somewhere in the arctic, with nae maps or way hame and great big seeeee yeeeee fae us aw?

Dashing Bob S
29-02-2012, 02:51 PM
I voted no, not that I want to have a go at anyone who voted yes, but can anyone (other than Blue is the Colour:devil:) explain why they voted yes? I can't understand any reason anyone would want Rangers to walk back to the top end of Scottish football after cheating for a number of years. Would love to hear a balanced logical answer as to why they should be a special case?

For personal reasons of lurrrvvvee as explained in the earlier post. If you saw her, you'd feel the same way. She just brings out my inner Barry White and makes me want to be a better man.

PatHead
29-02-2012, 02:54 PM
For personal reasons of lurrrvvvee as explained in the earlier post. If you saw her, you'd feel the same way. She just brings out my inner Barry White and makes me want to be a better man.

She makes you sh*t yerself? :dunno:

Mikeystewart
29-02-2012, 03:34 PM
She makes you sh*t yerself? :dunno:

:greengrin:top marks

Dashing Bob S
29-02-2012, 03:39 PM
She makes you sh*t yerself? :dunno:

Well, wait till you see her, you can judge for yourself.

BH, do you still have a pic?

blackpoolhibs
29-02-2012, 03:44 PM
Well, wait till you see her, you can judge for yourself.

BH, do you still have a pic?

No mate, i have washed that women right out of my hair. It took a while, but i think i'm over her now.

Bringing up a picture would only open old wounds.

Saorsa
29-02-2012, 03:44 PM
Well, wait till you see her, you can judge for yourself.

BH, do you still have a pic?The one of his Ex?

http://file041b.bebo.com/13/large/2008/05/06/15/4310453648a7660455403l.jpg

Saorsa
29-02-2012, 03:45 PM
No mate, i have washed that women right out of my hair. It took a while, but i think i'm over her now.

Bringing up a picture would only open old wounds.Too bad and too late, sorry :greengrin

blackpoolhibs
29-02-2012, 03:48 PM
anyone else just got a semi?

PatHead
29-02-2012, 04:07 PM
anyone else just got a semi?

Getting excited about pictures of your daughter just isn't Hibs' class BH

Vini1875
29-02-2012, 06:18 PM
I think the original poster was taking into accout the TV deal for the whole season as without der Hun this would be vastly reduced.

Possibly but even with the TV deal, (the vast majority of the money from TV and league sponsorship etc goes to the OF) the amount the huns mean to us is nowhere near £1M.

blackpoolhibs
29-02-2012, 07:24 PM
Getting excited about pictures of your daughter just isn't Hibs' class BH

Whats that got to do with me just buying a house?

Phil D. Rolls
29-02-2012, 08:13 PM
I think many fans feel this BH. I have been thinking about this and my stance would never again set foot inside Ibrox and never attend any match they are involded in under any circumstances. They must be punished for their financial mismanagement ~ CHEATING !! They have to be demoted and I dont necessarily think that should save Hibs or Pars from relegation either. I would let 2 come up from the 1st Div.

When did rules ever apply to Rangers?

Eyrie
29-02-2012, 08:16 PM
Why is there nae option that says they should all be packed into a big boat and drifted to some godforsaken uninhabited island somewhere in the arctic, with nae maps or way hame and great big seeeee yeeeee fae us aw?

Only if they take their Celtc friends with them.

LancashireHibby
29-02-2012, 09:02 PM
Wouldn't even let them in the SFL if there was a choice. I think it's more and more likely though that some jiggery-pokery will go on and they will reform in the SPL with zero punishment.

Dashing Bob S
29-02-2012, 09:34 PM
Too bad and too late, sorry :greengrin

Zzzzzziiiiipppp....consider those wounds opened!


(Or was that his flies?)

Bad Martini
01-03-2012, 11:36 AM
Only if they take their Celtc friends with them.

Am all for that. And whilst at it, they can take hearts anaw...

Sorted.

ENDOF

DH1875
01-03-2012, 09:48 PM
Total joke if they got straight back in. What's to stop us or anyone else saying duck it, let's go out and blow 50 million and win the league and cup. I also don't get all the talk about needing them, do we duck. How does the TV deal work if they finish bottom 6 or better yet, get relegated? Will they stop the team winning the first from coming up. How long do you think their fans will stick around when their finishing mid table? Won't be long till their back playing in front of 10k crowds.