Jim Spence on the BBC website.

[--------]

Jim Spence on the BBC website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence...e_the_old.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2012/02/is_the_phrase_the_old.html)


Third para from the end - "Rangers must meet all their dues and obligations and that the current situation was a great opportunity for the rest of the SPL clubs to change the voting structure for the benefit of all of the clubs."

I don't know how much thought this has been given in our boardroom or elsewhere among the SPL clubs, but it seems to me to be unarguable that the present system where a majority of 11 from 12 is needed to bring about any real change in the way the League works will always work in favour of the Old Firm.

(And btw - I am perfectly sure that once Rangers have got themselves out of their present difficulties, which they will - Celtic will revert to type and go back to being the other cheek of a totally obnoxious backside. Old Firm they BOTH are, and Old Firm they BOTH always will be, unfortunately.)

A sports league should work for the benefit af ALL the member teams - not just for the top two. The situation in the SPL, with clubs openly admitting their dependence on home gates with the OF to balance their books - which translates into "We'll go down without them, so we'll always do exactly what they tell us to do" - is a situation that should never have been allowed to arise.

Rangers' troubles - all caused by their own irresponsibility and dishonesty - only themselves to blame - are a chance for the rest of the clubs in the SPL to grow some backbones and balls and move to make positive changes in the way the league works.

Like legislating to make sure that cowboys like Ogilvy, Bain, Whyte, and Romanov CAN'T just buy their way in and then ruin it for everyone else. Like preventing two big teams running the game as their own private benefit fund. Like obliging member companies to submit their accounts on time before the strat of the new season, as the French football authorities do. And if they don't, or if the accounts don't square, they don't get to play in the top league. Like France. Like enforcing transparency in contract dealings - ALL contracts lodged with the league, or the player doesn't play.

All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing. There are some good men in Scottish football. maybe even one or two still left at Ibrox or Tynecastle (though I won't hold my breath while we look for them). Time for a radical housecleaning, guys. The real fans deserve nothing less.

[Saorsa]

Jim Spence on the BBC website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence...e_the_old.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2012/02/is_the_phrase_the_old.html)


Third para from the end - "Rangers must meet all their dues and obligations and that the current situation was a great opportunity for the rest of the SPL clubs to change the voting structure for the benefit of all of the clubs."

I don't know how much thought this has been given in our boardroom or elsewhere among the SPL clubs, but it seems to me to be unarguable that the present system where a majority of 11 from 12 is needed to bring about any real change in the way the League works will always work in favour of the Old Firm.

(And btw - I am perfectly sure that once Rangers have got themselves out of their present difficulties, which they will - Celtic will revert to type and go back to being the other cheek of a totally obnoxious backside. Old Firm they BOTH are, and Old Firm they BOTH always will be, unfortunately.)

A sports league should work for the benefit af ALL the member teams - not just for the top two. The situation in the SPL, with clubs openly admitting their dependence on home gates with the OF to balance their books - which translates into "We'll go down without them, so we'll always do exactly what they tell us to do" - is a situation that should never have been allowed to arise.

Rangers' troubles - all caused by their own irresponsibility and dishonesty - only themselves to blame - are a chance for the rest of the clubs in the SPL to grow some backbones and balls and move to make positive changes in the way the league works.

Like legislating to make sure that cowboys like Ogilvy, Bain, Whyte, and Romanov CAN'T just buy their way in and then ruin it for everyone else. Like preventing two big teams running the game as their own private benefit fund. Like obliging member companies to submit their accounts on time before the strat of the new season, as the French football authorities do. And if they don't, or if the accounts don't square, they don't get to play in the top league. Like France. Like enforcing transparency in contract dealings - ALL contracts lodged with the league, or the player doesn't play.

All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing. There are some good men in Scottish football. maybe even one or two still left at Ibrox or Tynecastle (though I won't hold my breath while we look for them). Time for a radical housecleaning, guys. The real fans deserve nothing less.
I'll no be hauding ma breath waiting on that tae happen.


We could have been playing in a fairer league years ago but what we ended up with instead was a lot of broken glass and a few minor voting consessions on issues of nae great importance.

Sadly the other clubs are run by a bunch of shortsighted, self-interested, mealy mouthed bottle merchants who cannae see past the end of their ain noses for the greater long term good of Scottish fitba.

[Jones28]

Pipe dream

Scottish football is so set in its ways that something like this is complete fantasy.

By changing it there is no benefit to either the folk at the premier league or the Old Firm. More paper-work for the SPL, less chance of deviousness for Celtic and Rangers.

And just imagine the fuss if one of them were to be demoted as a result of not handing in paper work on time! :shocked:

[rubber mal]

Jim Spence on the BBC website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence...e_the_old.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2012/02/is_the_phrase_the_old.html)


Third para from the end - "Rangers must meet all their dues and obligations and that the current situation was a great opportunity for the rest of the SPL clubs to change the voting structure for the benefit of all of the clubs."

I don't know how much thought this has been given in our boardroom or elsewhere among the SPL clubs, but it seems to me to be unarguable that the present system where a majority of 11 from 12 is needed to bring about any real change in the way the League works will always work in favour of the Old Firm.

(And btw - I am perfectly sure that once Rangers have got themselves out of their present difficulties, which they will - Celtic will revert to type and go back to being the other cheek of a totally obnoxious backside. Old Firm they BOTH are, and Old Firm they BOTH always will be, unfortunately.)

A sports league should work for the benefit af ALL the member teams - not just for the top two. The situation in the SPL, with clubs openly admitting their dependence on home gates with the OF to balance their books - which translates into "We'll go down without them, so we'll always do exactly what they tell us to do" - is a situation that should never have been allowed to arise.

Rangers' troubles - all caused by their own irresponsibility and dishonesty - only themselves to blame - are a chance for the rest of the clubs in the SPL to grow some backbones and balls and move to make positive changes in the way the league works.

Like legislating to make sure that cowboys like Ogilvy, Bain, Whyte, and Romanov CAN'T just buy their way in and then ruin it for everyone else. Like preventing two big teams running the game as their own private benefit fund. Like obliging member companies to submit their accounts on time before the strat of the new season, as the French football authorities do. And if they don't, or if the accounts don't square, they don't get to play in the top league. Like France. Like enforcing transparency in contract dealings - ALL contracts lodged with the league, or the player doesn't play.

All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing. There are some good men in Scottish football. maybe even one or two still left at Ibrox or Tynecastle (though I won't hold my breath while we look for them). Time for a radical housecleaning, guys. The real fans deserve nothing less.

Couldn't agree more, Doddie. There is a fantastic opportunity here, but whether or not it will be taken is another question.

[MCameron]

Couldn't agree more, Doddie. There is a fantastic opportunity here, but whether or not it will be taken is another question.

Surely we the fans of the non-OF clubs can make this happen. It would take some sort of joined up campaign though where it was made clear to the boards of the other 10 teams that we are not prepared to accept the way it's been. Let's face it given the choice the OF would sail of into the sunset of the EPL at the first opportunity.

Time to stand up and be counted?

[killie-hibby]

Jim Spence on the BBC website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence...e_the_old.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2012/02/is_the_phrase_the_old.html)


Third para from the end - "Rangers must meet all their dues and obligations and that the current situation was a great opportunity for the rest of the SPL clubs to change the voting structure for the benefit of all of the clubs."

I don't know how much thought this has been given in our boardroom or elsewhere among the SPL clubs, but it seems to me to be unarguable that the present system where a majority of 11 from 12 is needed to bring about any real change in the way the League works will always work in favour of the Old Firm.

(And btw - I am perfectly sure that once Rangers have got themselves out of their present difficulties, which they will - Celtic will revert to type and go back to being the other cheek of a totally obnoxious backside. Old Firm they BOTH are, and Old Firm they BOTH always will be, unfortunately.)

A sports league should work for the benefit af ALL the member teams - not just for the top two. The situation in the SPL, with clubs openly admitting their dependence on home gates with the OF to balance their books - which translates into "We'll go down without them, so we'll always do exactly what they tell us to do" - is a situation that should never have been allowed to arise.

Rangers' troubles - all caused by their own irresponsibility and dishonesty - only themselves to blame - are a chance for the rest of the clubs in the SPL to grow some backbones and balls and move to make positive changes in the way the league works.

Like legislating to make sure that cowboys like Ogilvy, Bain, Whyte, and Romanov CAN'T just buy their way in and then ruin it for everyone else. Like preventing two big teams running the game as their own private benefit fund. Like obliging member companies to submit their accounts on time before the strat of the new season, as the French football authorities do. And if they don't, or if the accounts don't square, they don't get to play in the top league. Like France. Like enforcing transparency in contract dealings - ALL contracts lodged with the league, or the player doesn't play.

All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing. There are some good men in Scottish football. maybe even one or two still left at Ibrox or Tynecastle (though I won't hold my breath while we look for them). Time for a radical housecleaning, guys. The real fans deserve nothing less.



Jim Spence wrote "current situation WAS a great opportunity" So,he thinks the chance to make changes has gone, otherwise he would have said "current situation IS a great opportunity"
Totally agree with Doddie,s post.
The current SPL set up is cringe embarassing where ten clubs aspire to be the Third Force. In what other league or sport do participants set out to be third. The chairmen and boards of the SPL ten are really a bunch of spineless loosers. Sports fans in USA/Canada wouldnt believe the level of grovelling by clubs and media towards the Bigot Twins.
If Rangers are liquidated and Hibs vote for them to remain in the SPL I and many others will walk away and look for something else to spend time and money on.

[--------]

Surely we the fans of the non-OF clubs can make this happen. It would take some sort of joined up campaign though where it was made clear to the boards of the other 10 teams that we are not prepared to accept the way it's been. Let's face it given the choice the OF would sail of into the sunset of the EPL at the first opportunity.

Time to stand up and be counted?


I agree with the other posters that this isn't something that'll easily hapopen.

But yes, I do think it's time for the supporters of the other teams in Scotland to make it clear to their own team's administrators that we're sick and tired of watchiung them toadying up to the Ugly Sisters instead of getting together to sort out the mess that they themselves have made of Scottish football. It's not just the SPL - there are teams in the SFL who would benefit from the top flight getting a right good shake-up.

We might be surprised how far a right good loud whinge might take us.

Jones28: And just imagine the fuss if one of them were to be demoted as a result of not handing in paper work on time! :shocked:

But why shouldn't they? The very fact that so many oif us assume that "they" are above the law and can do as they please when they please is the problem. It's not just that the OF bully the rest of the SPL - from where I'm sitting it looks very much as if the rest of the SPL are more than willing to encourage them to do so.

As killie-hibby says - if Rangers are found guilty as charged, and the rest of the SPL just rooll over and let them escape the appropriate consequnces of their actions, I'll walk away. There's a chance to change things, and that chance remains as long as Rangers are struggling as they are now. But if a year from now the powers-that-be have let them off the hook, and it's all as-you-were in the SPL, the game's a bogey.

there should be a serious outcry going on about how Rangers and the administrators of the SPL have brought the game in Scotland into such appalling disrepute.

Instead, we have fans' "spokesmen" - self-appointed, most of them - telling us how vital to the Scottish game it is to preserve the parasites and paper over the mess as quickly and quietly as possible. And the fans themselves, quiet as lambs, agreeing that the quicker we're back to business as usual the better.

the only way to real change is for the SPL to change its rules to make sure that fiscal dishonesty on this scale doesn't happen again, and that all ten/twelve/sixteen/whatever clubs have an equal and proper say in the running of the League.

[ScottB]

Jim Spence wrote "current situation WAS a great opportunity" So,he thinks the chance to make changes has gone, otherwise he would have said "current situation IS a great opportunity"
Totally agree with Doddie,s post.
The current SPL set up is cringe embarassing where ten clubs aspire to be the Third Force. In what other league or sport do participants set out to be third. The chairmen and boards of the SPL ten are really a bunch of spineless loosers. Sports fans in USA/Canada wouldnt believe the level of grovelling by clubs and media towards the Bigot Twins.
If Rangers are liquidated and Hibs vote for them to remain in the SPL I and many others will walk away and look for something else to spend time and money on.

To be fair, look at any 'top level' league really, do Wigan, Bolton and Everton et all start the season thinking they have a shot at anything higher than scrapping into the top half of the EPL? Do Valencia start the season thinking they can get any better than third in Spain etc etc.

Regardless of what restrictions we bring in, the Old Firm are likely to keep on winning things, considering they have vastly bigger attendances that's no surprise, but it doesn't mean we can't have a fairer league, a fairer division of income and a fairer voting structure in place.

[oldbutdim]

Jim Spence wrote "current situation WAS a great opportunity" So,he thinks the chance to make changes has gone, otherwise he would have said "current situation IS a great opportunity"
Totally agree with Doddie,s post.
The current SPL set up is cringe embarassing where ten clubs aspire to be the Third Force. In what other league or sport do participants set out to be third. The chairmen and boards of the SPL ten are really a bunch of spineless loosers. Sports fans in USA/Canada wouldnt believe the level of grovelling by clubs and media towards the Bigot Twins.
If Rangers are liquidated and Hibs vote for them to remain in the SPL I and many others will walk away and look for something else to spend time and money on.

You really think run of the mill journos (especially sports journos) are that accurate with words?
I'm not convinced.
:wink:

[--------]

To be fair, look at any 'top level' league really, do Wigan, Bolton and Everton et all start the season thinking they have a shot at anything higher than scrapping into the top half of the EPL? Do Valencia start the season thinking they can get any better than third in Spain etc etc.

Regardless of what restrictions we bring in, the Old Firm are likely to keep on winning things, considering they have vastly bigger attendances that's no surprise, but it doesn't mean we can't have a fairer league, a fairer division of income and a fairer voting structure in place.



That, Scott, is exactly my point. In the USA, Leagues operate as Leagues, not as cut-throat marketplaces for individual teams to screw the other teams financially for as much as they can get.

And while there are problems and even scandals from time to time, generally speaking most US sports leagues seem to work a lot more equitably and farly than the SPL. (Come to think of it - they could hardly work any worse.)

Not only do the OF enjoy massively greater attendances, they ripe the bulk of the TV money too.

And I KNOW Celtic are making a big deal about occupying the moral high ground just now, but that hasn't always been so. And they're just as ruthless as rangers in their financial dealings with other teams within the SPL.

[ScottB]

That, Scott, is exactly my point. In the USA, Leagues operate as Leagues, not as cut-throat marketplaces for individual teams to screw the other teams financially for as much as they can get.

And while there are problems and even scandals from time to time, generally speaking most US sports leagues seem to work a lot more equitably and farly than the SPL. (Come to think of it - they could hardly work any worse.)

Not only do the OF enjoy massively greater attendances, they ripe the bulk of the TV money too.

And I KNOW Celtic are making a big deal about occupying the moral high ground just now, but that hasn't always been so. And they're just as ruthless as rangers in their financial dealings with other teams within the SPL.

I've always found it puzzling that the US, a country that would look upon Tory policy here as the work of Commie lefties, has what you would probably term a 'socialist' structure to its pro sport leagues...

I think going forward, ideally the SPL needs wage caps, most likely a percentage of turnover, copying the French system for contracts and financial stability, and, though it would never happen, since FIFA explicitly forbids outside meddling in FAs (a handy system to keep the corrupt and the useless in power), a total clean slate at the SPL and SFA, with a full public inquiry into this sorry mess.

[Dashing Bob S]

There is a terrible problem with timidity, servility and deference, on the part of the other clubs, towards those two fascistic, monolithic institutions in a sectarian cartel that is slowly strangling them and the Scottish domestic game to death.

Not to use this situation to their advantage and insist on a more equitable voting structure (i.e: ending the OF veto) is like turkey's voting for Christmas.

[EuanH78]

There is a terrible problem with timidity, servility and deference, on the part of the other clubs, towards those two fascistic, monolithic institutions in a sectarian cartel that is slowly strangling them and the Scottish domestic game to death.

Not to use this situation to their advantage and insist on a more equitable voting structure (i.e: ending the OF veto) is like turkey's voting for Christmas.

Couldnt agree more Bob, time for the other club chairmen/ owners and fans to show a little more long term thinking instead of only looking at this season or next.

[TheEastTerrace]

I hear there is yet another TV debate on the state of Scottish football early next week. Yes, another.....

What will come out of it? Sweet FA.

[ginger_rice]

I've always thought that the only way we'd ever get a 14 or 16 team league would have been if one of the ugly sisters ended up in 12th spot!

Would love to see the 11-1 voting regime thrown out but not holding my breath for it either.

[Stew the Hibee]

There's one major problem with this though. Like we all know, the tims thrive of the huns and so killing them off would, in my opinion, work against them. Sure they may win more titles, but the two depend on each other. Therefore, they will try to keep them going. For anything to change, including the 11-1 systemALL the clubs must vote against this, bar one. Celtic won't be prepared to take the risk and so will still side with the huns.

[Ozyhibby]

There's one major problem with this though. Like we all know, the tims thrive of the huns and so killing them off would, in my opinion, work against them. Sure they may win more titles, but the two depend on each other. Therefore, they will try to keep them going. For anything to change, including the 11-1 systemALL the clubs must vote against this, bar one. Celtic won't be prepared to take the risk and so will still side with the huns.

The Huns temporarily won't be there. That's the whole point of the thread. If they enter liquidation on any form whatsoever they will lose their tight to vote and that is when the other clubs must act.