EBT's

[Jim_in_Canada]

Can someone tell me if HOMFC have also been using EBT's and if they also are being investigated by HMRC.

Thanks.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can someone tell me if HOMFC have also been using EBT's and if they also are being investigated by HMRC.

Thanks.

On your first point, the rumour (accepted wisdom in some quarters) is that they have been.

On the second point, definitely. It was disclosed in their last published accounts.

[ScottB]

Campbell Ogilvie being Finance Director at Rangers, then holding the same role at Hearts would suggest that the rumours are true to my mind, you'd have to assume that has Finance Director he'd have been involved in the scheme at Rangers, then would take that 'good idea' to Hearts.

That he has been envolved so intimately in both clubs and is now Vice President at the SFA stinks as far as I'm concerned.

[Future17]

Apparently they were being used at Hearts as well, but to a lesser extent that at Rangers. This, and the difference in wage bill between the clubs, means any tav liability for Hearts will be much smaller than Rangers'.

HMRC are likely to have a list of targets if they win the test case against Rangers, however that is FAR from certain to happen.

[Onceinawhile]

Rangers case is different as they underpaid the tax due and it was poorly administered. It's unlikely a win in this case would set precedent.

[CropleyWasGod]

Apparently they were being used at Hearts as well, but to a lesser extent that at Rangers. This, and the difference in wage bill between the clubs, means any tav liability for Hearts will be much smaller than Rangers'.

HMRC are likely to have a list of targets if they win the test case against Rangers, however that is FAR from certain to happen.

Why is that?

[Steven_Hibs]

That he has been envolved so intimately in both clubs and is now Vice President at the SFA stinks as far as I'm concerned.

:agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Campbell Ogilvie being Finance Director at Rangers, then holding the same role at Hearts would suggest that the rumours are true to my mind, you'd have to assume that has Finance Director he'd have been involved in the scheme at Rangers, then would take that 'good idea' to Hearts.

That he has been envolved so intimately in both clubs and is now Vice President at the SFA stinks as far as I'm concerned.

In what way does it stink?

[Beefster]

In what way does it stink?

A man responsible for finances at two Scottish clubs at a time that they participated in alleged tax evasion, leading to HMRC investigations and the consequences. That man is now in change of the national association. You don't think that that is questionable?

ScottB - Ogilvie's the President of the SFA nowadays, by the way.

[ScottB]

In what way does it stink?


A man responsible for finances at two Scottish clubs at a time that they participated in alleged tax evasion, leading to HMRC investigations and the consequences. That man is now in change of the national association. You don't think that that is questionable?

ScottB - Ogilvie's the President of the SFA nowadays, by the way.

What he said basically.

A guy who was ostensibly in charge of finance for years at Rangers while they cheated the tax system, then a move to Hearts, where the same system was the implemented, as well as Hearts beginning their long running habit of ducking bills, paying late and who knows what else. At the least he was aware of this happening and continued on at both clubs, unless of course he didn't know, but then you'd have to wonder how incompetent a Finance Director would have to be to not know how all his staff were being paid... In either case, that someone with that level of judgement has been allowed to reach the highest levels of the game in this country pretty much sums up the joke that it is!

I'd be interested to see what any investigation into the Rangers mess turns up on, up till now most of the focus has been on HMRC and now Whyte as being the source of blame, when really the cause of all this is the Murray regimes EBT swindle...

[cabbageandribs1875]

Campbell Ogilvie being Finance Director at Rangers, then holding the same role at Hearts would suggest that the rumours are true to my mind, you'd have to assume that has Finance Director he'd have been involved in the scheme at Rangers, then would take that 'good idea' to Hearts.

That he has been envolved so intimately in both clubs and is now Vice President at the SFA stinks as far as I'm concerned.



:agree: you would think some journalists would put some Q's to him

[CropleyWasGod]

A man responsible for finances at two Scottish clubs at a time that they participated in alleged tax evasion, leading to HMRC investigations and the consequences. That man is now in change of the national association. You don't think that that is questionable?

ScottB - Ogilvie's the President of the SFA nowadays, by the way.

I can't join in the demonisation of Campbell Ogilvie.

He, and the rest of the Rangers Board, would have been advised by their tax advisers on the implications of the setting up of EBT's, particularly the potential for tax savings. They decided to set them up, on the basis of that advice, and for a number of years they worked well, with the consequent tax savings. HMRC hadn't questioned them at that point.

When CO moved to Hearts, it made sense to set up EBT's there too, particularly for the high-earning foreign players. Again, there was no objection from HMRC.

It is only in the last few years, I think since EBT's were declared illegal, that HMRC's attitude to them has changed. That changed attitude is what is being tested by the First-Tier Tribunal.

I would contend that, at the time, CO, RFC and HMFC acted in good faith, on the basis of advice. In hindsight, of course, that advice and their actions may turn out to be wrong. However, there is no suggestion from HMRC (or anyone else, other than the most rabid or ignorant) that RFC and HMFC set out to defraud the Revenue.

[Beefster]

I can't join in the demonisation of Campbell Ogilvie.

He, and the rest of the Rangers Board, would have been advised by their tax advisers on the implications of the setting up of EBT's, particularly the potential for tax savings. They decided to set them up, on the basis of that advice, and for a number of years they worked well, with the consequent tax savings. HMRC hadn't questioned them at that point.

When CO moved to Hearts, it made sense to set up EBT's there too, particularly for the high-earning foreign players. Again, there was no objection from HMRC.

It is only in the last few years, I think since EBT's were declared illegal, that HMRC's attitude to them has changed. That changed attitude is what is being tested by the First-Tier Tribunal.

I would contend that, at the time, CO, RFC and HMFC acted in good faith, on the basis of advice. In hindsight, of course, that advice and their actions may turn out to be wrong. However, there is no suggestion from HMRC (or anyone else, other than the most rabid or ignorant) that RFC and HMFC set out to defraud the Revenue.

So, if EBTs weren't obviously tax evasion (I think that paying wages into a trust, which then makes non-repayable loans to the player is fairly evidently evasion rather than avoidance but no matter), why isn't every club being chased by HMRC? Surely every club's advisers would be recommending them?

[banchoryhibs]

It is only in the last few years, I think since EBT's were declared illegal, that HMRC's attitude to them has changed. That changed attitude is what is being tested by the First-Tier Tribunal.

I think that you will find that HMRC has always found such schemes to be offensive and there have already been other cases brought to Court to successfully argue that this form of evasion did not work. The introduction of law to totally outlaw the practice will have come in on the back of the previous litigation.

The introduction of EBTs was widespread, not only in football circles, and I understand that because these financial devices are complex previous Court cases may not have covered all eventualities. It would not be surprising to find that other challenges are ongoing but I guess that HMRC's confidentiality rules prevents us from knowing about these until they are settled.

One other point, rangerstaxcase.com discusses this in some detail, it could be that the mischief here was not just that EBTs were introduced but that it was the way that they were used was more of the problem.

[Hibs Class]

I have not seen the terms of reference of the SFA enquiry but I would like to think that it would be sufficiently wide-ranging to enable it to go where it needs to go. With that in mind I think there would be greater public confidence in the integrity of the enquiry if he stepped down from his current role, as right now there is clearly the potential for him to be conflicted.

[greenginger]

I can't join in the demonisation of Campbell Ogilvie.

He, and the rest of the Rangers Board, would have been advised by their tax advisers on the implications of the setting up of EBT's, particularly the potential for tax savings. They decided to set them up, on the basis of that advice, and for a number of years they worked well, with the consequent tax savings. HMRC hadn't questioned them at that point.

When CO moved to Hearts, it made sense to set up EBT's there too, particularly for the high-earning foreign players. Again, there was no objection from HMRC.

It is only in the last few years, I think since EBT's were declared illegal, that HMRC's attitude to them has changed. That changed attitude is what is being tested by the First-Tier Tribunal.

I would contend that, at the time, CO, RFC and HMFC acted in good faith, on the basis of advice. In hindsight, of course, that advice and their actions may turn out to be wrong. However, there is no suggestion from HMRC (or anyone else, other than the most rabid or ignorant) that RFC and HMFC set out to defraud the Revenue.



EBT's properly administered can squeeze past the tax man's clutches, but if the paper work shows the payments were part of the players contract with the club its a fair cop.
If the stories are true about players having " parallel " contracts , one for the player/agent and a different one registered with the league/SFA , I think Mr Ogilvie is in the brown stuff.

[CropleyWasGod]

So, if EBTs weren't obviously tax evasion (I think that paying wages into a trust, which then makes non-repayable loans to the player is fairly evidently evasion rather than avoidance but no matter), why isn't every club being chased by HMRC? Surely every club's advisers would be recommending them?

They didn't suit everyone. They were only attractive to those who wanted to pull players from abroad (perhaps in lower-tax countries) who would otherwise be paying tax at 40%.

And, of course, not every adviser would recommend them. For many, the advice would have been to body swerve them.

[Gala Foxes]

think EBT's will be the least of Hearts worries - spending more than they take in for the length of Romanov's time in charge, with manipulation of debt by debt-equity switches means that year on year they become more and more insolvent. Add to that the fact that from an "assets" perspective they have a stadium that is worth a fraction of what is was in the Robinson days due to the property crash & a batch of players that no-one is interested in signing.

No UK banks will underwrite football clubs in the current climate anywhere near as aggressively / ambitiously as they used to & that tact is highly unlikely to change going forward

The numbers have never added up from day one when Romanov came in - its just a matter of time