Scottish Football ... Stockholm Syndrome

[NAE NOOKIE]

Just listened to Stuart McCall on Reporting Scotland trot out the usual tired old Bull Jobby about how we need the OF ( rangers ) because of the number of fans they take to away games and how you can sell more corporate hospitality on the back of matches against them. Not to mention the TV money they attract and how his club ( and others ) would struggle without them.

This is typical of the Stockholm Syndrome attitude that the people who own and run our clubs now have in regard to the OF.

They have become so brainwashed in their way of thinking by the ' its aye been ' way of looking at things in this country that they just cant see the wood for the bloody trees.

The truth of the matter is that the OF have no problem selling out their own grounds or selling tickets for away matches in Motherwell, Dundee, Perth, Aberdeen, Edinburgh or anywhere else in Scotland due to the fact that, for example, for every 4,000 ( or whatever it is ) away fans who turn up at Fir Park when the OF are in town 3 times each a season a probable total of 4,000 fans who should be going to Fir Park EVERY HOME GAME go to Parkhead or Ibrox every other Saturday.

So yeh .... Motherwell get 24,000 away fans on the back of the OF every season but probably lose 70,000 to the OF every season, a net loss of 48,000 punters. To a greater or lesser extent the same situation applies to every club in Scotland.

Next ..... Because of the never ending monopoly of the league and most cup competitions by the OF any fans who are less than dedicated to their clubs have drifted away, only to be resurrected for hugely important league games or the once in 10 or 20 years appearance in a cup final ... coming out like flowers in the bloody desert when it rains. So as far as I can see, another loss of revenue which can be blamed on the OF.

Then theres the TV money negotiated by the SPL for the SPL .... Why do the OF get a disproportionate share of that money? and more to the point, why are they allowed to get away with it? Because they would take the huff and negotiate their own TV deals?
Fine .... Let them .... they could only sell the rights to their own home matches which would discourage their thousands of fans from Ireland, England and the further reaches of Scotland from going to Glasgow. Its their televised away games which attract the TV folk, thats why you never see live league games from Parkhead or Ibrox .............. Call their bloody bluff you SPL idiots !!!

So Mr McCall and all you other OF apologists .......... Instead of telling us why we cant do without them, start to realise that they are the cause of the problem .... not the bloody solution to it !!!


Rant over

[green glory]

Crack open a tinny son. You deserve it. Spot-on by the way. Scottish football needs to grow a pair. A golden opportunity which mustn't be squandered. Celtic have made their position clear. I just hope the Tache doesn't get cold feet.

[lucky]

Just listened to Stuart McCall on Reporting Scotland trot out the usual tired old Bull Jobby about how we need the OF ( rangers ) because of the number of fans they take to away games and how you can sell more corporate hospitality on the back of matches against them. Not to mention the TV money they attract and how his club ( and others ) would struggle without them.

This is typical of the Stockholm Syndrome attitude that the people who own and run our clubs now have in regard to the OF.

They have become so brainwashed in their way of thinking by the ' its aye been ' way of looking at things in this country that they just cant see the wood for the bloody trees.

The truth of the matter is that the OF have no problem selling out their own grounds or selling tickets for away matches in Motherwell, Dundee, Perth, Aberdeen, Edinburgh or anywhere else in Scotland due to the fact that, for example, for every 4,000 ( or whatever it is ) away fans who turn up at Fir Park when the OF are in town 3 times each a season a probable total of 4,000 fans who should be going to Fir Park EVERY HOME GAME go to Parkhead or Ibrox every other Saturday.

So yeh .... Motherwell get 24,000 away fans on the back of the OF every season but probably lose 70,000 to the OF every season, a net loss of 48,000 punters. To a greater or lesser extent the same situation applies to every club in Scotland.

Next ..... Because of the never ending monopoly of the league and most cup competitions by the OF any fans who are less than dedicated to their clubs have drifted away, only to be resurrected for hugely important league games or the once in 10 or 20 years appearance in a cup final ... coming out like flowers in the bloody desert when it rains. So as far as I can see, another loss of revenue which can be blamed on the OF.

Then theres the TV money negotiated by the SPL for the SPL .... Why do the OF get a disproportionate share of that money? and more to the point, why are they allowed to get away with it? Because they would take the huff and negotiate their own TV deals?
Fine .... Let them .... they could only sell the rights to their own home matches which would discourage their thousands of fans from Ireland, England and the further reaches of Scotland from going to Glasgow. Its their televised away games which attract the TV folk, thats why you never see live league games from Parkhead or Ibrox .............. Call their bloody bluff you SPL idiots !!!

So Mr McCall and all you other OF apologists .......... Instead of telling us why we cant do without them, start to realise that they are the cause of the problem .... not the bloody solution to it !!!


Rant over

well thought out post shame its wrong. Scottish football needs the old firm. Gate money, tv cash , sponsorship, hospitality would all be dramatically reduced. I hate the two of them but they make up the majority of Scottish football

[scuttle]

well thought out post shame its wrong. Scottish football needs the old firm. Gate money, tv cash , sponsorship, hospitality would all be dramatically reduced. I hate the two of them but they make up the majority of Scottish football

No we dont.What would have happened if they had got into the English leagues as they wanted to?,do you think they care about Hibs, Hearts etc.With them gone crowds would flourish IMHO as the league would be more competative and teams would have more chance of success as with us when we were in the First Division the last time, we got more through the turnstiles then than we are at present.Yes we would loose TV money but by switching to summer football Sky would probably pump money in as apart from cricket and a fortnight of tennis there is little other sport on tv worth watching. Now is the time for radiacal change in our game and if we miss this opportunity we might never get another one.

[bighairyfaeleith]

well thought out post shame its wrong. Scottish football needs the old firm. Gate money, tv cash , sponsorship, hospitality would all be dramatically reduced. I hate the two of them but they make up the majority of Scottish football

you never fail to post the biggest load of utter pish known to man.

[Kevvy1875]

well thought out post shame its wrong. Scottish football needs the old firm. Gate money, tv cash , sponsorship, hospitality would all be dramatically reduced. I hate the two of them but they make up the majority of Scottish football

Struggling to understand how something can be 'well thought out' & 'wrong' at the same time?:confused:

Can anyone explain this new phenomenon to me please?

[cabbageandribs1875]

you never fail to post the biggest load of utter pish known to man.



it's the SNP's fault :rolleyes:

[bighairyfaeleith]

Struggling to understand how something can be 'well thought out' & 'wrong' at the same time?:confused:

Can anyone explain this new phenomenon to me please?

it's kind of like borrowing from yourself:greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

Crack open a tinny son. You deserve it. Spot-on by the way. Scottish football needs to grow a pair. A golden opportunity which mustn't be squandered. Celtic have made their position clear. I just hope the Tache doesn't get cold feet.


i'l hazard a guess that if any votes were to take place re the buns staying in the SPL...RP will vote for them(the buns) :wink: the only two/three clubs(imo) that would vote against would be sellick, dundee utd, and possibly the yamboids, i also think if there was a chance of finally getting shot of the ridiculous 11-1 p@sh the other SPL clubs still wouldnt take the chance

[CropleyWasGod]

Struggling to understand how something can be 'well thought out' & 'wrong' at the same time?:confused:

Can anyone explain this new phenomenon to me please?

The Great Train Robbers plan was well thought out. But wrong.

Bernie Madoff's scheme was well thought out. But wrong.

Craig Whyte's scheme was just scheidt. And wrong.

[Scouse Hibee]

well thought out post shame its wrong. Scottish football needs the old firm. Gate money, tv cash , sponsorship, hospitality would all be dramatically reduced. I hate the two of them but they make up the majority of Scottish football

More Old Firm Tunnel Vision!

[big-mo]

I agree with Bovril. I think Scottish football would survive quite easily without the infirm, If you look at the gates at ER for when Smelltic or Rankers play you will find that the number of season ticket holders who turn up is less than games against Aberdeen, Motherwell and the likes, I can only surmise that this is down to a couple of things, either, they expect us to get humped and don't want to watch it or they do not like the vile that they come out with every time they turn up.

Without they OF, other teams would be stronger and would have a better chance when playing in Europe, you would not see hundred of buses leaving Aberdeen, Fife, Ayrshire etc every week travelling to Glasgow.
And you would not have the embarrassment of being Scottish and going on holiday and seeing whole families, mums dads wains grans and grandads all decked out in green and white hoops or rangers strips and tattoos of King Billy.

[Seveno]

I firmly believe that, if we were rid of the bigot brothers, we would have a real league with a genuine competition that would interest fans. Apart from a certain club in the west of Edinburgh, we would be rid of the hatred, bile and bigotry that despoils our game and puts so many people off attending games.

We would probably stop employed foreign journeymen and start developing our own players again who could then be sold on to English clubs to boost revenue.

TV is killing our game. It encourages lazy support and the disruption of kick-off times makes it difficult for many fans to attend and destroys the habit of attending on a Saturday afternoon.

Our league is geared towards the generation of the best possible return for just two clubs to help them 'compete' in Europe. That plan consistently fails, of course, and all to the detriment of the remaining clubs.

Good riddance to Rangers and may your partners in crime soon follow.

[lucky]

you never fail to post the biggest load of utter pish known to man.

Well well well you finally manage to put a sentence together your primary teacher will be so proud. Forums are about opinions but sadly yours is blinkered narrow minded and blighted by politics very much like the old firm you proclaim to dislike.

[lucky]

it's the SNP's fault :rolleyes:

For once wee eck is innocent even if some media claims that the Scottish government will intervene

[lucky]

Struggling to understand how something can be 'well thought out' & 'wrong' at the same time?:confused:

Can anyone explain this new phenomenon to me please?

Rather easy the OP has thought out his arguments and constructed it well but the reality of it is Scottish football relies on the old firm heavily. If Rangers end up in the 3rd division every club in the SPL will lose out. This is not me but the people who run the clubs.

[Ozyhibby]

Motherwell would benefit more than most from Rangers demise.

[Scouse Hibee]

Rather easy the OP has thought out his arguments and constructed it well but the reality of it is Scottish football relies on the old firm heavily. If Rangers end up in the 3rd division every club in the SPL will lose out. This is not me but the people who run the clubs. IMO that's just looking at it short term, the bigger picture is that the League will flourish, become more competitive and in doing so attract more fans. The old firm have become the Tesco of the league, squeezing the life blood out of smaller local clubs because people would rather travel to the big club.

[lucky]

Motherwell would benefit more than most from Rangers demise.

How's that? If Hibs ceased I would not go and watch my local club Livingston or any other club.

[TornadoHibby]

Craig Whyte's scheme was just scheidt. And wrong.

But what is his scheme actually?:confused:

[Seveno]

IMO that's just looking at it short term, the bigger picture is that the League will flourish, become more competitive and in doing so attract more fans. The old firm have become the Tesco of the league, squeezing the life blood out of smaller local clubs because people would rather travel to the big club.

Great analogy. :aok:

[Ozyhibby]

How's that? If Hibs ceased I would not go and watch my local club Livingston or any other club.

But your kids might, or grandkids? Everyone is thinking of next years income. It time some clubs started thinking about 20-25 years from now.

[SMAXXA]

I think all you need to do is look at the league table minus rangers and celtic to see how close and competative our leagure really could be. Not just this season but historically speaking outside them there's normally 2 3 even 4 teams all in the mix going into the last couple of months of the season. Much like the championship, always competative and is a big draw for tv.

Not to mention bigger crowds as clubs will have something exiting to go for and fans wanting to go along to be part of it.

[lucky]

A competitive league is not a big draw for tv. It's about viewers. The northern Irish and republics leagues are competitive but don't get a big tv deal. Turkeys voting for Xmas springs to mind

[Scouse Hibee]

A competitive league is not a big draw for tv. It's about viewers. The northern Irish and republics leagues are competitive but don't get a big tv deal. Chickens voting for Xmas springs to mind

Don't know about that............."You can't see the wood for the trees" springs to my mind!

[Andy74]

A competitive league is not a big draw for tv. It's about viewers. The northern Irish and republics leagues are competitive but don't get a big tv deal. Chickens voting for Xmas springs to mind

Who cares about TV. You've just said those leagues are competitive. That's what I'd like. What good is our current TV deal money doing?

[Kevvy1875]

Who cares about TV. You've just said those leagues are competitive. That's what I'd like. What good is our current TV deal money doing?

Nail on head.


Everyone thinks they have the answer but the truth is if we do not have radical change in the set up to our league then the punters are going to rapidly lose interest(especially non-OF teams). The opportunity has been presented to us on a plate by Rangers FC and people are actually sh*tting themselves at the thought??!!! Lets take the chance!

[SkintHibby]

Well well well you finally manage to put a sentence together your primary teacher will be so proud. Forums are about opinions but sadly yours is blinkered narrow minded and blighted by politics very much like the old form you proclaim to dislike.

Your original comments in this thread clearly show you have no idea what you are talking about.:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

I would win the Olympic 100 metres gold medal if I could choose my opponents.

No one would be interested though.

[hibbiedon]

A competitive league is not a big draw for tv. It's about viewers. The northern Irish and republics leagues are competitive but don't get a big tv deal. Chickens voting for Xmas springs to mind

When we were in the first division, our crowds were really good, When St Mirren were winning the first division many of their games were all ticket, remove the poison twins then several teams would be challenging for the title, cups etc. with increased crowds comes increased sponsorship. Viewers want excitement, not a two horse race with half empty grounds




Yes to seperation

[Hibbyradge]

When we were in the first division, our crowds were really good, When St Mirren were winning the first division many of their games were all ticket, remove the poison twins then several teams would be challenging for the title, cups etc. with increased crowds comes increased sponsorship. Viewers want excitement, not a two horse race with half empty grounds




Yes to seperation

Have a look again at the crowds we had that season. They weren't nearly as impressive as folklore suggests.

And, remember the team we had. Sauzee, Latapy, Mixu etc etc.

We can't afford players half as good as that now, never mind if half of the Scottish football market was removed (or 90% of it if you include Celtic)..

How would an OF free league be better for us in seasons like this one? We'd be sitting 9th.

How often have we finished 3rd since the SPL was created? How often have we finished in the top 6?

If it happens, it happens, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that we'll be better off.

[lucky]

Your original comments in this thread clearly show you have no idea what you are talking about.:agree:

You base this on what? Because I believe Scottish football would suffer if Rangers died. This is a view of every club to speak out and most of the journalist views. But let your petty blinkered view get in the way of looking at the situation objectively

[Ozyhibby]

You base this on what? Because I believe Scottish football would suffer if Rangers died. This is a view of every club to speak out and most of the journalist views. But let your petty blinkered view get in the way of looking at the situation objectively

Only way this argument can be settled is to have a couple of seasons without Rangers so let's try it. If your right I'll doff my cap to you and other Rangers apologists.

[micka_weer]

Chickens voting for Xmas springs to mind

.............or even turkeys :)

[killie-hibby]

A competitive league is not a big draw for tv. It's about viewers. The northern Irish and republics leagues are competitive but don't get a big tv deal. Chickens voting for Xmas springs to mind

How silly of me to have attended most of Hibs Saturday 3pm KO,s matches at Easter Road since 1958. I wish I had known the primary purpose of football was "about viewers" and to "get a big TV deal". I have foolishly believed that clubs wanted SUPPORTERS, ie people who can be bothered to get off their backsides in all weather conditions, travel at great expense to the clubs respective stadium and pay hard earned cash to get in. Supporters like myself have been and will be the only constant in club finances. I dont give a flying f---k for TV deals. IMOP TV has suffocated Scottish football by a) insisting on four Bigot Twin derbies per season, thereby killing off a bigger and more competitive league. b)having complete control of which games are to be televised and at which time, usually 1200/1230 Saturdays and Sundays. Televised games are the primary reason for the gradual reduction in attendances. The television companies are dissuading people from attending games. Their function is to look after shareholders and advertisers, not football clubs. Television companies consider football clubs as mugs (or bait). Football clubs now consider cash paying supporters as mugs.
Scots who subscribe to Sky sports and ESPN are unwittingly causative factors in our leagues demise as our clubs should get if all was fair ,approximately 9% of the Sky money given to English clubs. 9% would allow us to compete financially with most Championship teams and all of the remaining English divisions.
We need to get back to basics. Scrap the TV deal and have every game on at 3pm Saturday and occasionaly 7.30pm Wednesday. With or without the Bigots. OK it would be tough for a couple of seasons, but fans/supporters would gradually return to a more competitive and therefore more exciting league. We have tried Television. It has failed Scottish football.
The alternative, Lucky, is to think like you, wear blinkers and bow to TV, eventually sitting on the couch, watching matches with empty stadiums as we will have adopted your philosophy of football being all "about viewers".
Lucky, take your blinkers off ,go outside into a real world.

[Brizo]

A golden opportunity which mustn't be squandered. Celtic have made their position clear. I just hope the Tache doesn't get cold feet.

if Rod were to state that the SPL needs Rangers would that make it a case of the tache my father wore.:dunno:

[hibsbollah]

A competitive league is not a big draw for tv. It's about viewers. The northern Irish and republics leagues are competitive but don't get a big tv deal. Chickens voting for Xmas springs to mind

Go away and come back when youve done some simple calculations re-the relative importance of our gate receipts compared to the current TV deal.

The truth is, TV revenue is a welcome, but ultimately minor, source of income for SPL clubs. Maximising gate receipts is the financial imperative for everyone.

The irony is that the conditions imposed upon us by the TV deal (kickoff times etc) reduces the gate receipts and hence overall income.

Negotiating a new TV deal in which the league has more control over kickoff times should be the imperative, even if the total £package is lower. The Rangers fiasco gives us a chance to rip things up and start again. Lets face it, is there that much to lose? Is our product so fantastic at the moment that the risk isnt worth it?

[lucky]

.............or even turkeys :)

Great spot lol. But I think I will edit.

[lucky]

I am not a Hun lover. They have brought this on themselves but if people think that one of the best supported teams in the UK dying is good for the SPL then its time for a reality check. They average 44000 fans for a home and take up 4000 away. They are a major part of Scottish football. I dislike their songs and behavior but there are many on here who are just as bigoted with some of their posts about them.

[Franck is God]

When we were in the first division, our crowds were really good, When St Mirren were winning the first division many of their games were all ticket, remove the poison twins then several teams would be challenging for the title, cups etc. with increased crowds comes increased sponsorship. Viewers want excitement, not a two horse race with half empty grounds

Our crowds were good in the first division but as a club we still lost quite a lot of money. If the OF left Scottish football then for the first few years the majority of clubs would lose a lot of income including Hibs.

The TV money is not great but our sponsorship packages are based on the coverage the club gets on sattelite tv so if it were to go then we would lose more than the cash received by SKY/ESPN which is an equally big chunk of cash.

I am not an advocate of the OF staying in Scottish football, I'd quite happilly see them both go down the toilet together but as other posters have said the league would not instantly flourish and for it to do so would need the biggest rethink in its history.

What we would have however is the potential for an entirely new league that could grow, the Scottish population loves its football and if it was decent quality from top to bottom, well priced and played at times people could realistically attend each week then the fans would come along to support it.

[blackpoolhibs]

I keep hearing how Scottish football would die without the huns, yet most clubs have poor attendances now only propped up with tv money from sky.

The only teams who benefit from the current set up are the bigots, they are guaranteed the top 2 places every year, yet when they have problems like just now, through no fault of anyone else, some folk seem to be crapping themselves at what might happen?

It seems to me they can do almost exactly as they like, and some folk are too frightened to see justice, they are prepared to let them get away with it as long as nothing changes.

The league is crap, the rest of us fighting over the scraps, and rangers with all their spending power need to cheat to keep this going and we just bend over and take it. Justice is all i ask for, and that would create more competition, nobody moaned or let us off paying our dues when we had too much debt and had to go much weaker before getting better.

What is the point in Scottish football anymore?

[Billy Whizz]

I'm not sure how much TV money we get per season, however as all our games against Rangers, Celtic and Hearts are televised we lose walk up fans and this costs us money.
Not many Rangers and Celtic home games are screened live

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not sure how much TV money we get per season, however as all our games against Rangers, Celtic and Hearts are televised we lose walk up fans and this costs us money.
Not many Rangers and Celtic home games are screened live

About £1.2m, apparently (taken from another thread)

[Ozyhibby]

For the game to flourish why not make the price for rangers SPL survival a £5m salary cap?
Should encourage a more sporting competition while keeping them and sky happy.

[gringojoe]

How silly of me to have attended most of Hibs Saturday 3pm KO,s matches at Easter Road since 1958. I wish I had known the primary purpose of football was "about viewers" and to "get a big TV deal". I have foolishly believed that clubs wanted SUPPORTERS, ie people who can be bothered to get off their backsides in all weather conditions, travel at great expense to the clubs respective stadium and pay hard earned cash to get in. Supporters like myself have been and will be the only constant in club finances. I dont give a flying f---k for TV deals. IMOP TV has suffocated Scottish football by a) insisting on four Bigot Twin derbies per season, thereby killing off a bigger and more competitive league. b)having complete control of which games are to be televised and at which time, usually 1200/1230 Saturdays and Sundays. Televised games are the primary reason for the gradual reduction in attendances. The television companies are dissuading people from attending games. Their function is to look after shareholders and advertisers, not football clubs. Television companies consider football clubs as mugs (or bait). Football clubs now consider cash paying supporters as mugs.
Scots who subscribe to Sky sports and ESPN are unwittingly causative factors in our leagues demise as our clubs should get if all was fair ,approximately 9% of the Sky money given to English clubs. 9% would allow us to compete financially with most Championship teams and all of the remaining English divisions.
We need to get back to basics. Scrap the TV deal and have every game on at 3pm Saturday and occasionaly 7.30pm Wednesday. With or without the Bigots. OK it would be tough for a couple of seasons, but fans/supporters would gradually return to a more competitive and therefore more exciting league. We have tried Television. It has failed Scottish football.
The alternative, Lucky, is to think like you, wear blinkers and bow to TV, eventually sitting on the couch, watching matches with empty stadiums as we will have adopted your philosophy of football being all "about viewers".
Lucky, take your blinkers off ,go outside into a real world.

:top marks spot on 3 o'clock kick offs on a Saturday and TV can show highlights on a Saturday night or a Sunday afternoon.

[CropleyWasGod]

For the game to flourish why not make the price for rangers SPL survival a £5m salary cap?
Should encourage a more sporting competition while keeping them and sky happy.

Players Union , Celtic and Rangers would be citing restraint of trade and other such stuff, I reckon.

[Ozyhibby]

About £1.2m, apparently (taken from another thread)

We only got £715k last year. If you deduct the money lost because of lunchtime Sunday kick offs then it's not such a large amount.

[Moulin Yarns]

This constant thought that we need the TV deals is rubbish, I'm with Killie-Hibby that no TV, regular 3pm kick-offs would be more attractive to the actual fans.

The following is taken from the PWC report from last year to back this up.

Even before the collapse of Setanta, the SPL was in a unique position compared to the other big leagues such as the Premiership, Ligue 1, Serie A and the Bundeslige,
with ticket sales forming the SPL’s most important revenue stream (with TV and radio deals being second and sponsorship taking third place).

This means the SPL clubs have been hit relatively harder by the declining attendance levels than other major leagues.

Add to this the average 18,277 fewer fans attending their team’s home matches during 2009/10 compared to last season and the average resulting impact wipes
£10m off the SPL’s aggregate revenue.


In essence, we don't need TV as much as the Old Firm do. A more attractive and competitive league without the OF and TV would, IMHO, bring larger attendances, so OFGTF, BSKYB GTF. Give football back to the people that matter, the fans who pay their way to watch their clubs in the flesh.

PS looking forward to going to the pub to watch the game tomorrow!!!!

[Ozyhibby]

Players Union , Celtic and Rangers would be citing restraint of trade and other such stuff, I reckon.

Salary caps have the full backing of uefa now and sports comps have a special exemption from European union rules. They have a perfectly legal one operating in rugby league and rugby union.

[CropleyWasGod]

Salary caps have the full backing of uefa now and sports comps have a special exemption from European union rules. They have a perfectly legal one operating in rugby league.

Ah okay, cheers, didn't know that.

[blackpoolhibs]

Salary caps have the full backing of uefa now and sports comps have a special exemption from European union rules. They have a perfectly legal one operating in rugby league.

I'm all for this salary cap, but our league would get weaker to begin with. All the best players would leave it for countries without a wage cap, but we would instantly have a more competitive league with more emphasis on youth.

I dont expect anyone to vote for this though, the league is working fine enough as it is. :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

Only way this argument can be settled is to have a couple of seasons without Rangers so let's try it. If your right I'll doff my cap to you and other Rangers apologists.

Apologists? Does arguing an unpopular point of view, as Lucky has done, make you an apologist? I have loved laughing at Rangers problems this week and there are many things about that 'insitution' I intensely dislike. However I don't share the certainty that many feel here that life without them (and/or Celtic) will usher in a new golden age for Scottish football. If the argument is that we make our league stronger and more competitive by dumping our two strongest competitors then I struggle to understand the logic behind that. However let's go with your idea. Try life without Rangers (and Celtic if you want) and let's see what happens. The authories in charge of the Spanish league will no doubt be watching with interest. If we make a go of it no doubt they will make their league stronger and more competitive by dumping Barca and Real Madrid. The big four in England could be sacrificed for the greater good down there.
I think there would be life in Scottish Football if Rangers do disappear altogether. I just don't think it will be the utopia many seem to think. Of course I just can't see the wood for the trees.:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I'm all for this salary cap, but our league would get weaker to begin with. All the best players would leave it for countries without a wage cap, but we would instantly have a more competitive league with more emphasis on youth.

I dont expect anyone to vote for this though, the league is working fine enough as it is. :rolleyes:

If you set the level at £5m per season then only rangers, Celtic and Hearts would lose players initially although hearts are trying to bring their salaries under this level anyway. No other club in Scotland spends this much so would not see a drop in the quality of player they would be able to hire.

[blackpoolhibs]

Apologists? Does arguing an unpopular point of view, as Lucky has done without resorting to belittling others, make you an apologist? I have loved laughing at Rangers problems this week and there are many things about that 'insitution' I intensely dislike. However I don't share the certainty that many feel here that life without them (and/or Celtic) will usher in a new golden age for Scottish football. If the argument is that we make our league stronger and more competitive by dumping our two strongest competitors then I struggle to understand the logic behind that. However let's go with your idea. Try life without Rangers (and Celtic if you want) and let's see what happens. The authories in charge of the Spanish league will no doubt be watching with interest. If we make a go of it no doubt they will make their league stronger and more competitive by dumping Barca and Real Madrid. The big four in England could be sacrificed for the greater good down there.
I think there would be life in Scottish Football if Rangers do disappear altogether. I just don't think it will be the utopia many seem to think. Of course I just can't see the wood for the trees.:greengrin

I'm not daft enough to think Rangers are going to disappear, but personally i just want to see justice. And justice in my opinion is for them to pay their taxes like everyone else. That would cripple them for a long time, and should in itself make the league more competitive.

If they are to go pop, they would rise again we all know this, but as i said before justice will have been served and the rest of the teams will have to survive or falter by good management or bad, just like the huns.

If justice is not served properly, then just what is the point of Scottish football anymore? If we are to be run roughshod over by them, and let them away with whatever they do then we are ****ed, even more than we are now.

[marinello59]

I'm not daft enough to think Rangers are going to disappear, but personally i just want to see justice. And justice in my opinion is for them to pay their taxes like everyone else. That would cripple them for a long time, and should in itself make the league more competitive.

If they are to go pop, they would rise again we all know this, but as i said before justice will have been served and the rest of the teams will have to survive or falter by good management or bad, just like the huns.

If justice is not served properly, then just what is the point of Scottish football anymore? If we are to be run roughshod over by them, and let them away with whatever they do then we are ****ed, even more than we are now.

I agree most of that.
There should be a chance here for ther other clubs to renegotiate the distibution of TV revenue etc so we all get a fairer share. I don't really blame the Old Firm for the unfair advantage they have had for years. I blame the other clubs for failing to demand that situation is rectified. Nothing should be off the table now including League expansion ans Summer football.

[blackpoolhibs]

I agree most of that.
There should be a chance here for ther other clubs to renegotiate the distibution of TV revenue etc so we all get a fairer share. I don't really blame the Old Firm for the unfair advantage they have had for years. I blame the other clubs for failing to demand that situation is rectified. Nothing should be off the table now including League expansion ans Summer football.

:agree::top marks They cant let this opportunity go, if they dont it this will be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of people. Although if they do, it could be the kick in the erse Scottish football has needed for years. :pray:

[TrickyNicky]

I'm not daft enough to think Rangers are going to disappear, but personally i just want to see justice. And justice in my opinion is for them to pay their taxes like everyone else. That would cripple them for a long time, and should in itself make the league more competitive.

If they are to go pop, they would rise again we all know this, but as i said before justice will have been served and the rest of the teams will have to survive or falter by good management or bad, just like the huns.

If justice is not served properly, then just what is the point of Scottish football anymore? If we are to be run roughshod over by them, and let them away with whatever they do then we are ****ed, even more than we are now.

:top marks
I too, just want them to be held accountable for cheating and then trying to get out of paying a massive tax bill.
A 10 point deduction is not acceptable in my opinion, whether it is good for Hibs or the game in Scotland is irrelevant
Getting away with it makes a mockery out of much bigger issues than football.

[NAE NOOKIE]

A lot of interesting posts. I do understand how an argument can be well thought out but still wrong by the way.

Just to clarify one thing. I dont particularly want to see the OF leave Scottish football, to go down south, or by going bust.

What I want is to see the rest of the clubs in Scotland use this golden opportunity to bring them to heel, by making the league more competetive, with a wage cap being the best way to do that, the fans would soon start supporting their local clubs after a few years if they had a better chance in the league and cups.

Unfortunately we would be daft to ignore TV money, but what we need is an even distribution of the money. If our games are not on the telly dont forget that English and Spanish games are and people will still watch them.

[AustinHibee]

How silly of me to have attended most of Hibs Saturday 3pm KO,s matches at Easter Road since 1958. I wish I had known the primary purpose of football was "about viewers" and to "get a big TV deal". I have foolishly believed that clubs wanted SUPPORTERS, ie people who can be bothered to get off their backsides in all weather conditions, travel at great expense to the clubs respective stadium and pay hard earned cash to get in. Supporters like myself have been and will be the only constant in club finances. I dont give a flying f---k for TV deals. IMOP TV has suffocated Scottish football by a) insisting on four Bigot Twin derbies per season, thereby killing off a bigger and more competitive league. b)having complete control of which games are to be televised and at which time, usually 1200/1230 Saturdays and Sundays. Televised games are the primary reason for the gradual reduction in attendances. The television companies are dissuading people from attending games. Their function is to look after shareholders and advertisers, not football clubs. Television companies consider football clubs as mugs (or bait). Football clubs now consider cash paying supporters as mugs.
Scots who subscribe to Sky sports and ESPN are unwittingly causative factors in our leagues demise as our clubs should get if all was fair ,approximately 9% of the Sky money given to English clubs. 9% would allow us to compete financially with most Championship teams and all of the remaining English divisions.
We need to get back to basics. Scrap the TV deal and have every game on at 3pm Saturday and occasionaly 7.30pm Wednesday. With or without the Bigots. OK it would be tough for a couple of seasons, but fans/supporters would gradually return to a more competitive and therefore more exciting league. We have tried Television. It has failed Scottish football.
The alternative, Lucky, is to think like you, wear blinkers and bow to TV, eventually sitting on the couch, watching matches with empty stadiums as we will have adopted your philosophy of football being all "about viewers".
Lucky, take your blinkers off ,go outside into a real world.
Spot on with every point you make.

[Posh Swanny]

So who benefits from all this cash that the Old Firm brings to the rest of the SPL? Most clubs are still running up losses year after year. It makes no difference to the chances of any other club breaking into the top two. It doesn't help us to progress in the Europa League. So why the great need for all this money from TV and ticket sales that the OF generate? So the players and managers can get paid vast sums for this lack of achievement?

If the OF were to leave, revenue would drop. Big deal. Introduce a 60% wage to turnover ratio cap and pay the ******g players less while gunning for a Champions League place. Would be OK for the majority of people involved in Scottish football i.e. The fans. But wouldn't need quite so many blazers at Hampden so nothing will be done. The "we need the Old Firm" line is a lie. Highly paid staff and players need the Old Firm. Scottish football doesn't.

[Eyrie]

So who benefits from all this cash that the Old Firm brings to the rest of the SPL? Most clubs are still running up losses year after year. It makes no difference to the chances of any other club breaking into the top two. It doesn't help us to progress in the Europa League. So why the great need for all this money from TV and ticket sales that the OF generate? So the players and managers can get paid vast sums for this lack of achievement?

If the OF were to leave, revenue would drop. Big deal. Introduce a 60% wage to turnover ratio cap and pay the ******g players less while gunning for a Champions League place. Would be OK for the majority of people involved in Scottish football i.e. The fans. But wouldn't need quite so many blazers at Hampden so nothing will be done. The "we need the Old Firm" line is a lie. Highly paid staff and players need the Old Firm. Scottish football doesn't.

Good post.

[PISTOL1875]

I am split on this argument.. Obviously the OF are the whole selling point of our game and the TV money and ticket sales they bring is needed.. Not forgetting that , the money that the lower league sides receive if they are lucky enough to draw them in a cup competition.. A home draw against either of the OF would no doubt keep a small team going for years to come..

Also you have to think about transfers to the OF. Hibs have received £8.5m from them over recent years and where we would be without that money ??

On the other hand , a league without the OF would maybe have a knock-on effect short term..

How would teams survive without the income they would receive ?? Dunfermline are reporting that the £100,000 they are meant to get from the huns is so important and losing it would be catastrophic..

On the supporters view , we wouldn't have so much TV input and the plus side of that is that there will be no daft kick off times like Inverness away at 12noon anymore.. No more early Sunday kick offs and 3pm on a Saturday might be a more common thing...

[blackpoolhibs]

I am split on this argument.. Obviously the OF are the whole selling point of our game and the TV money and ticket sales they bring is needed.. Not forgetting that , the money that the lower league sides receive if they are lucky enough to draw them in a cup competition.. A home draw against either of the OF would no doubt keep a small team going for years to come..

Also you have to think about transfers to the OF. Hibs have received £8.5m from them over recent years and where we would be without that money ??

On the other hand , a league without the OF would maybe have a knock-on effect short term..

How would teams survive without the income they would receive ?? Dunfermline are reporting that the £100,000 they are meant to get from the huns is so important and losing it would be catastrophic..

On the supporters view , we wouldn't have so much TV input and the plus side of that is that there will be no daft kick off times like Inverness away at 12noon anymore.. No more early Sunday kick offs and 3pm on a Saturday might be a more common thing...

Hibs were offered the same money from Reading for Brown that we accepted from the smellies. There are other clubs, others will pick holes in the rest of your post. :wink:

[neilmartinrocks]

[QUOTE=PISTOL1875;3118394]I am split on this argument.. Obviously the OF are the whole selling point of our game and the TV money and ticket sales they bring is needed.. Not forgetting that , the money that the lower league sides receive if they are lucky enough to draw them in a cup competition.. A home draw against either of the OF would no doubt keep a small team going for years to come..

Also you have to think about transfers to the OF. Hibs have received £8.5m from them over recent years and where we would be without that money ??

On the other hand , a league without the OF would maybe have a knock-on effect short term..

How would teams survive without the income they would receive ?? Dunfermline are reporting that the £100,000 they are meant to get from the huns is so important and losing it would be catastrophic..

On the supporters view , we wouldn't have so much TV input and the plus side of that is that there will be no daft kick off times like Inverness away at 12noon anymore.. No more early Sunday kick offs and 3pm on a Saturday might be a more common thing...[/QUOTE
would these clubs in the lower leagues not get them 2-3 times a season if they are put down surely a club as big and important as rangers would still retain their support...after all theyre not gloryhunters?

[Malthibby]

We would survive without Rankers or Celtic - god knows they would leave quickly enough if anyone else wanted them, & god knows they have treid.
No-one is suggesting there would be no dislocation, but there would be Scottish footie & many of us would/will be watching it.
GG

[ozwoody]

If rangers cease to be(which is our hope) it is a fantastic opportunity for the rest of the clubs to get rid of the 11-1 voting system,Celtic cannot dictate tv revenue anymore,thereby more can be shared round,even if there is less in the pot.Scottish football needs rangers? Not any club out with the spl they don't,what benefit to alloa or east stirling is there? I'n my lifetime,41 years,the old firm have won nearly all titles and cups,apart from a few glory days we have had at Hampden.tell me where that stranglehold is good for us or other top flight clubs? We have always started seasons thinking who's going to come third,imagine thinking who's going to challenge for title? Excitement back at grounds,crowds would increase,and I believe the product on the park would improve too.we have to think about the long term benefits,as opposed to thinking its all doom and gloom.

[ozwoody]

[QUOTE=PISTOL1875;3118394]I am split on this argument.. Obviously the OF are the whole selling point of our game and the TV money and ticket sales they bring is needed.. Not forgetting that , the money that the lower league sides receive if they are lucky enough to draw them in a cup competition.. A home draw against either of the OF would no doubt keep a small team going for years to come..

Also you have to think about transfers to the OF. Hibs have received £8.5m from them over recent years and where we would be without that money ??

On the other hand , a league without the OF would maybe have a knock-on effect short term..

How would teams survive without the income they would receive ?? Dunfermline are reporting that the £100,000 they are meant to get from the huns is so important and losing it would be catastrophic..

On the supporters view , we wouldn't have so much TV input and the plus side of that is that there will be no daft kick off times like Inverness away at 12noon anymore.. No more early Sunday kick offs and 3pm on a Saturday might be a more common thing...[/QUOTE
would these clubs in the lower leagues not get them 2-3 times a season if they are put down surely a club as big and important as rangers would still retain their support...after all theyre not gloryhunters?



With regards transfer money,how many times have we said players should stay at their clubs for an extra year to develop instead of running along the m8? We would have a better chance of nurturing our best players and then they have option of heading south or abroad,it's a win win,we get a settled side with quality youngsters and they know a big move down south is a realistic option instead of sitting on a bench in Glasgow ruining the best part of their career

[neilmartinrocks]

[QUOTE=neilmartinrocks;3118439]



With regards transfer money,how many times have we said players should stay at their clubs for an extra year to develop instead of running along the m8? We would have a better chance of nurturing our best players and then they have option of heading south or abroad,it's a win win,we get a settled side with quality youngsters and they know a big move down south is a realistic option instead of sitting on a bench in Glasgow ruining the best part of their career

call me a cynic but.... ive always thought both of the twisted sisters buy players for no reason other than they can and it keeps the rest of us from attaining stability and consistancy in our teams.

[Eyrie]

[QUOTE=ozwoody;3118460]

call me a cynic but.... ive always thought both of the twisted sisters buy players for no reason other than they can and it keeps the rest of us from attaining stability and consistancy in our teams.
And they then claim that the SPL is uncompetitive when angling for a move to England/Atlantic League/Rockall.

[Caversham Green]

We have to face the fact that neither side of the OF is going to disappear regardless of Rangers' current plight. In any case it's not really their existence that is the problem with Scottish football, it's their complete domination of it coupled with the craven acceptance of that domination by the authorities and the other clubs.

If Scottish football wants to improve its lot it needs to find ways of attracting new spectators. The OF are pretty much at saturation point and aren't going to increase their attendances significantly from where they are now. On the other hand each of the other 10 SPL clubs has a substantial latent or potential support, so the task for the authorities and those clubs is to turn the potential into actual. In particular if Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen or Dundee United were starting each season with a reasonable chance of winning the league and cups they would be filling their stadia most weeks - Hearts proved that to some extent in 2006 and are probably still benefitting from it now in terms of ST sales. The first priority of any league restructuring should be to reduce the OF domination and any financial arrangements should aim to distribute money more evenly between the teams - gate-sharing seems the most obvious way of doing that.

This all means dragging the OF backwards which will have a detrimental impact on their European campaigns at least in the short term, but they have complained about a lack of competition holding them back domestically so in time it could prove beneficial. The Scottish game needs to improve within itself before it can find its true level in Europe. Rangers problems should be viewed as an opportunity to start that process rather than a worry about the future of the game. They will survive and will still attract the largest crowds in the country (along with Celtic) but if their weakness can be used to transfer strength to the non-OF sides then there is an unmissable opportunity presenting itself. Sadly, I don't think the Scottish game has the will to take advantage of that oppotunity.

[lucky]

CG as always spot on. Clubs outwith the old firm need to find ways of getting more fans to attend games. Clearly there are a number on here that love Hibs but never go near the stadium. Of Hibs can get back our lost fans then maybe we might get closer to the old firm

[PISTOL1875]

[QUOTE=neilmartinrocks;3118439]



With regards transfer money,how many times have we said players should stay at their clubs for an extra year to develop instead of running along the m8? We would have a better chance of nurturing our best players and then they have option of heading south or abroad,it's a win win,we get a settled side with quality youngsters and they know a big move down south is a realistic option instead of sitting on a bench in Glasgow ruining the best part of their career

many a time yeh but if you are a player at HIbs and Celtic want to sign you.. Doubling or maybe trebling your wages.. What are you going to do ??

You could leave yes or you could stay and that option might not be there for you in 6 months.. You have to go where the money is...

[KeithTheHibby]

It is almost 60 years since we last won the league. Not far off half our existence.

It is harder now to win the league than it has ever been.

There is probably very few people around who can remember us last winning it.

It is almost 30 years since anyone other than the OF won it.


I really don't see us winning the league or anyone else for that matter in my lifetime.

If that isn't reason for change then I don't know what is.

[neilmartinrocks]

just noticed this thread has mixed my posts with ozzhibee(SP)&pistol

[Hibbyradge]

It is almost 60 years since we last won the league. Not far off half our existence.

It is harder now to win the league than it has ever been.

There is probably very few people around who can remember us last winning it.

It is almost 30 years since anyone other than the OF won it.


I really don't see us winning the league or anyone else for that matter in my lifetime.

If that isn't reason for change then I don't know what is.

We won the first division a couple of times after being relegated.

Why not count those?

[KeithTheHibby]

We won the first division a couple of times after being relegated.

Why not count those?

Because it is stupid and not relevant to the thread.

Or perhaps you were trying to be clever again.

[--------]

I am split on this argument.. Obviously the OF are the whole selling point of our game and the TV money and ticket sales they bring is needed.. Not forgetting that , the money that the lower league sides receive if they are lucky enough to draw them in a cup competition.. A home draw against either of the OF would no doubt keep a small team going for years to come..

Also you have to think about transfers to the OF. Hibs have received £8.5m from them over recent years and where we would be without that money ??

On the other hand , a league without the OF would maybe have a knock-on effect short term..

How would teams survive without the income they would receive ?? Dunfermline are reporting that the £100,000 they are meant to get from the huns is so important and losing it would be catastrophic..

On the supporters view , we wouldn't have so much TV input and the plus side of that is that there will be no daft kick off times like Inverness away at 12noon anymore.. No more early Sunday kick offs and 3pm on a Saturday might be a more common thing...




The argument that without the OF there would be no TV contract, and that the ticket sales we receive from them when they visit ER are vital to the survival of the other clubs in the SPL is flawed, IMO.

The season-by-season dominance of Scottish football by the OF means that every club in Scotland suffers because a lot of people would rather sit at home or in the pub watching Rangers or Celtic than go out to support their local team in their local stadium. If even a quarter of the OF supporters living in the Edinburgh/Lothians area supported Hibs and Hearts instead, that would be a significant increase in those clubs attendances EVERY HOME GAME - a lot more revenue than the twice-a-season bounty of 3,000 plus Weegie away fans when the OF come to visit. No one ever seems to count that loss when the subject of revenue comes up.

The fact that in many parts of Scotland this affiliation is reinforced by sectarianism just makes it worse.

Celtic and Rangers take an unequally large share of the TV money, anyway - based on the concept that most of the viewers support them, they're entitled. My understanding is that in the US a sports league - NFL, NHL, NBA, whoever - does business with the TV channels as a League, not as a collection of individual clubs. TV money is shared equally, on the principle that without ALL the teams in the league, there would be no league to sell to the TV.

I don't think any TV channel would pay good money to show Rangers and Celtic kicking lumps out of one another to a background of hate-filled sectarian singing and chanting every weekend in life. Sooner or later this would become boring, even among the most cerebrally-challenged Soapie or Hun.

Two teams don't make a league - they need the rest of the SPL as much as we need them.

The OF have become like a drug to all the other clubs - Scottish football has become so dependent on them that no one can conceive of life without them. £100,000 is what - 3,500 season tickets at SPL prices? Who's to say that in a competitive league structure the Pars couldn't do just that business, and become a big, grown-up club able to stand on its own two feet? Coming off drugs cold-turkey isn't ever easy, but maybe if Scottish football was clean and free from its unhealthy dependence on these Ugly Sisters, we'd actually be able to be proud of the game again?

Instead of ashamed and embarrassed to admit that our sport's in such a mess.

Try to explain to a Canadian or American NHL/NFL fan how the SPL works - he'll wet himself laughing and then ask you why the other ten clubs don't grow a backbone and a pair of testicles and stand up to these two. He won't believe that ten teams have allowed two teams a veto on anything and everything relating to the health and prosperity of their league - which is what our football club boards have done. Or that revenues are shared out so unevenly. Or that the LEAGUE authorities are so spineless in running the game - anyone can buy into an SPL club, whatever his past, whatever his financial probity. There have been major problems at Tynie for five years - not a thing - an effective thing, that is - has been done to sort out that mess.

And one Rangers supporter last week assured me airily that "They're all at it - Hibs, hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell - they're all doing it, they just haven't been caught yet."

Bottom line, it isn't about "Scottish football" the way those numpties on BBC Scotland insist. It's about a company listed on the Stock Exchange setting up an arrangement to pay their employees overseas to avoid paying tax on their salaries to HMRC - to the tune of somewhere between £50 million and £75 million - at least.

Money that could have been used in the Health Service, in the schools, in policing, maybe to buy decent armoured vehicles or Kevlar gear for the guys serving the Crown in Afghanistan.

Nice to think that overpaid Rangers football superstars got it instead.

Get the SPL re-organised and set up on a more even and equitable basis, and instead of having two massive clubs and the rest all subsidy-junkies waiting for the crumbs to fall from the Big Boys' table, we MIGHT have a dozen or more decent clubs of different sizes, all operating within budget and all competing on a level playing-field.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The argument that without the OF there would be no TV contract, and that the ticket sales we receive from them when they visit ER are vital to the survival of the other clubs in the SPL is flawed, IMO.

The season-by-season dominance of Scottish football by the OF means that every club in Scotland suffers because a lot of people would rather sit at home or in the pub watching Rangers or Celtic than go out to support their local team in their local stadium. If even a quarter of the OF supporters living in the Edinburgh/Lothians area supported Hibs and Hearts instead, that would be a significant increase in those clubs attendances EVERY HOME GAME - a lot more revenue than the twice-a-season bounty of 3,000 plus Weegie away fans when the OF come to visit. No one ever seems to count that loss when the subject of revenue comes up.

The fact that in many parts of Scotland this affiliation is reinforced by sectarianism just makes it worse.

Celtic and Rangers take an unequally large share of the TV money, anyway - based on the concept that most of the viewers support them, they're entitled. My understanding is that in the US a sports league - NFL, NHL, NBA, whoever - does business with the TV channels as a League, not as a collection of individual clubs. TV money is shared equally, on the principle that without ALL the teams in the league, there would be no league to sell to the TV.

I don't think any TV channel would pay good money to show Rangers and Celtic kicking lumps out of one another to a background of hate-filled sectarian singing and chanting every weekend in life. Sooner or later this would become boring, even among the most cerebrally-challenged Soapie or Hun.

Two teams don't make a league - they need the rest of the SPL as much as we need them.

The OF have become like a drug to all the other clubs - Scottish football has become so dependent on them that no one can conceive of life without them. £100,000 is what - 3,500 season tickets at SPL prices? Who's to say that in a competitive league structure the Pars couldn't do just that business, and become a big, grown-up club able to stand on its own two feet? Coming off drugs cold-turkey isn't ever easy, but maybe if Scottish football was clean and free from its unhealthy dependence on these Ugly Sisters, we'd actually be able to be proud of the game again?

Instead of ashamed and embarrassed to admit that our sport's in such a mess.

Try to explain to a Canadian or American NHL/NFL fan how the SPL works - he'll wet himself laughing and then ask you why the other ten clubs don't grow a backbone and a pair of testicles and stand up to these two. He won't believe that ten teams have allowed two teams a veto on anything and everything relating to the health and prosperity of their league - which is what our football club boards have done. Or that revenues are shared out so unevenly. Or that the LEAGUE authorities are so spineless in running the game - anyone can buy into an SPL club, whatever his past, whatever his financial probity. There have been major problems at Tynie for five years - not a thing - an effective thing, that is - has been done to sort out that mess.

And one Rangers supporter last week assured me airily that "They're all at it - Hibs, hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell - they're all doing it, they just haven't been caught yet."

Bottom line, it isn't about "Scottish football" the way those numpties on BBC Scotland insist. It's about a company listed on the Stock Exchange setting up an arrangement to pay their employees overseas to avoid paying tax on their salaries to HMRC - to the tune of somewhere between £50 million and £75 million - at least.

Money that could have been used in the Health Service, in the schools, in policing, maybe to buy decent armoured vehicles or Kevlar gear for the guys serving the Crown in Afghanistan.

Nice to think that overpaid Rangers football superstars got it instead.

Get the SPL re-organised and set up on a more even and equitable basis, and instead of having two massive clubs and the rest all subsidy-junkies waiting for the crumbs to fall from the Big Boys' table, we MIGHT have a dozen or more decent clubs of different sizes, all operating within budget and all competing on a level playing-field.

See highlighted part in second paragraph ....Apart from me that is :greengrin

Bang on post though

[NAE NOOKIE]

Nearly worth a new thread but I will refrain.

I see that Neil Lennon is in the papers moaning about how if the current buns are found guilty of ( 'in effect' ) cheating by having much better teams than the celtic ones he played in by using dodgy payments to sign players they couldnt afford, he will want to see them stripped of the titles and cups they won in that period. He goes on to say that the Tour de France sets an example of this by stripping drug cheats of their titles.

Now thats fair on a level playing field ...... But then the Tour de France doesnt start every year with only two competitors in with a chance because they are on motorbikes and everybody else on pushbikes.

What Lennon is saying is that the huns won unfairly because they were able to spend more money than the lot he was playing for.

Welcome to the reality for 80% of the players in the SPL every season mate !!

Its like the 2nd guy in the Tour de France moaning about losing, not because the other guy was on drugs, but because he couldnt sfford to take the same drugs as the guy who won.


Dont ya think? !!!

[SanFranHibs]

The Great Train Robbers plan was well thought out. But wrong.

Bernie Madoff's scheme was well thought out. But wrong.

Craig Whyte's scheme was just scheidt. And wrong.

Einstein's greatest blunder. And of of course there was Stephen Hawking's 'working out' that data was lost in black holes, only to be refuted by Suskind.

Maybe not well thought out....enough, but well above most mortals !!

[s.a.m]

Nearly worth a new thread but I will refrain.

I see that Neil Lennon is in the papers moaning about how if the current buns are found guilty of ( 'in effect' ) cheating by having much better teams than the celtic ones he played in by using dodgy payments to sign players they couldnt afford, he will want to see them stripped of the titles and cups they won in that period. He goes on to say that the Tour de France sets an example of this by stripping drug cheats of their titles.

Now thats fair on a level playing field ...... But then the Tour de France doesnt start every year with only two competitors in with a chance because they are on motorbikes and everybody else on pushbikes.

What Lennon is saying is that the huns won unfairly because they were able to spend more money than the lot he was playing for.

Welcome to the reality for 80% of the players in the SPL every season mate !!

Its like the 2nd guy in the Tour de France moaning about losing, not because the other guy was on drugs, but because he couldnt sfford to take the same drugs as the guy who won.


Dont ya think? !!!

It's also worth pointing out that sport has clear guidelines on doping offences and subsequent punishment, whereas - at least as far as football is concerned, in this country - there isn't similar provision for financial mismanagement / chicanery, beyond a paltry 10 point deduction. Ideally there would be, and suitable penalties could then follow.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nearly worth a new thread but I will refrain.

I see that Neil Lennon is in the papers moaning about how if the current buns are found guilty of ( 'in effect' ) cheating by having much better teams than the celtic ones he played in by using dodgy payments to sign players they couldnt afford, he will want to see them stripped of the titles and cups they won in that period. He goes on to say that the Tour de France sets an example of this by stripping drug cheats of their titles.

Now thats fair on a level playing field ...... But then the Tour de France doesnt start every year with only two competitors in with a chance because they are on motorbikes and everybody else on pushbikes.

What Lennon is saying is that the huns won unfairly because they were able to spend more money than the lot he was playing for.

Welcome to the reality for 80% of the players in the SPL every season mate !!

Its like the 2nd guy in the Tour de France moaning about losing, not because the other guy was on drugs, but because he couldnt sfford to take the same drugs as the guy who won.


Dont ya think? !!!

That sums up perfectly the old firm attitude. They are the ruling classes and us peasants are only there to serve them. Well I say "****ing revolution". If we don't get this right, then Scottish football is dead, at least for me. No more corruption, no more old firm bias and no more weedgie mafia. The more I read about this stinking mire, the more I start to think that maybe Vlad has a point.

[monktonharp]

well thought out post shame its wrong. Scottish football needs the old firm. Gate money, tv cash , sponsorship, hospitality would all be dramatically reduced. I hate the two of them but they make up the majority of Scottish football how long did it take for you to consider exactly what the OP said? not very well thought out by you imho. the Original post was top drawer, and sums up the whole situation in Scottish football

[bighairyfaeleith]

We have to face the fact that neither side of the OF is going to disappear regardless of Rangers' current plight. In any case it's not really their existence that is the problem with Scottish football, it's their complete domination of it coupled with the craven acceptance of that domination by the authorities and the other clubs.

If Scottish football wants to improve its lot it needs to find ways of attracting new spectators. The OF are pretty much at saturation point and aren't going to increase their attendances significantly from where they are now. On the other hand each of the other 10 SPL clubs has a substantial latent or potential support, so the task for the authorities and those clubs is to turn the potential into actual. In particular if Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen or Dundee United were starting each season with a reasonable chance of winning the league and cups they would be filling their stadia most weeks - Hearts proved that to some extent in 2006 and are probably still benefitting from it now in terms of ST sales. The first priority of any league restructuring should be to reduce the OF domination and any financial arrangements should aim to distribute money more evenly between the teams - gate-sharing seems the most obvious way of doing that.

This all means dragging the OF backwards which will have a detrimental impact on their European campaigns at least in the short term, but they have complained about a lack of competition holding them back domestically so in time it could prove beneficial. The Scottish game needs to improve within itself before it can find its true level in Europe. Rangers problems should be viewed as an opportunity to start that process rather than a worry about the future of the game. They will survive and will still attract the largest crowds in the country (along with Celtic) but if their weakness can be used to transfer strength to the non-OF sides then there is an unmissable opportunity presenting itself. Sadly, I don't think the Scottish game has the will to take advantage of that oppotunity.


Agree with all of that, unfortunately scottish football is run by idiots who believe the world rotates around the old firm. Until we break away from the idea that we need the old firm we will never move forward.

I don't want to see rangers disappear, as a hibs fan we all know what it's like to see your club about to disappear and wish that on nobody, not even those manky govan *******s, however they must pay for what they have been doing over the past twenty years to scottish football and thats buying trophies they cannot afford.

Unfortunately too many scottish clubs are in a perilous position or run by short sighted money grabbing bstards. We need a complete reform, wage caps, bigger league etc as well as a compulsory investment in youth football are just some of the ideas that I think we should lead the way in scotland by putting in place.

Now is the time for us to take the lead, not revert to our old ways in fear of losing a tv contract, I mean FFS:rolleyes:

[bighairyfaeleith]

That sums up perfectly the old firm attitude. They are the ruling classes and us peasants are only there to serve them. Well I say "****ing revolution". If we don't get this right, then Scottish football is dead, at least for me. No more corruption, no more old firm bias and no more weedgie mafia. The more I read about this stinking mire, the more I start to think that maybe Vlad has a point.

Steady there now, vlad is just annoyed that he can't afford to buy scottish football the way he did in lithuania. Vlad has done in other countries exactly what rangers and celtic have done here.

However, it is time for a revolution in scottish football, and I personally think there should be an orchestrated campaign by football fans across the country to show the SFA, SPL and the scottish government just how much we all want change.

We are taxpayers, voters and ticket buyers, time we made our presence felt!!

[bighairyfaeleith]

well well well you finally manage to put a sentence together your primary teacher will be so proud. Forums are about opinions but sadly yours is blinkered narrow minded and blighted by politics very much like the old firm you proclaim to dislike.

:lol:

[Cropley10]

Have a look again at the crowds we had that season. They weren't nearly as impressive as folklore suggests.

And, remember the team we had. Sauzee, Latapy, Mixu etc etc.

We can't afford players half as good as that now, never mind if half of the Scottish football market was removed (or 90% of it if you include Celtic)..

How would an OF free league be better for us in seasons like this one? We'd be sitting 9th.

How often have we finished 3rd since the SPL was created? How often have we finished in the top 6?

If it happens, it happens, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that we'll be better off.

Nor should we kid ourselves we'd be worse off, which is the OPs point.

[HibbyDave]

I keep hearing how Scottish football would die without the huns, yet most clubs have poor attendances now only propped up with tv money from sky.

The only teams who benefit from the current set up are the bigots, they are guaranteed the top 2 places every year, yet when they have problems like just now, through no fault of anyone else, some folk seem to be crapping themselves at what might happen?

It seems to me they can do almost exactly as they like, and some folk are too frightened to see justice, they are prepared to let them get away with it as long as nothing changes.

The league is crap, the rest of us fighting over the scraps, and rangers with all their spending power need to cheat to keep this going and we just bend over and take it. Justice is all i ask for, and that would create more competition, nobody moaned or let us off paying our dues when we had too much debt and had to go much weaker before getting better.

What is the point in Scottish football anymore?


Nail on head!

TV has been killing football the same way as it did for darts/snooker. Big exposure for a while then abandoned for a new fix. Meanwhile the fan base has dissapeared.

The clubs have a fantastic opportunity to re-arrange the league, negotiate a fairer deal with the TV companies (If we must keep them) and give the fans a chance to get involved with the clubs. However, nowt will change due to short term greed of a few people including some at our club who (I Believe) will hand a golden ticket to the new Huns and welcome them back to the spl as if nothing has changed, precedents of Livi, Gretna, Dundee all being demoted will be ignored for some minor differences from the huns situation.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Struggling to understand how something can be 'well thought out' & 'wrong' at the same time?:confused:

Can anyone explain this new phenomenon to me please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_dualism

well thought out but almost definitely wrong :aok: