How to stop the inevitable?

[St.Kristopher]

I wanted to start a thread that was about the Rangers situation, though specifically from a Hibs/other SPL clubs perspective...so here its is:

The general concern for all of us is: Rangers will start again in the SPL with no debt.

The general feeling is: this is a massive injustice to the other 'well run clubs' who have endured years of cost cutting just to survive.

Given the above we must not only sit on forums complaining (a great pass time in its self, I grant you), there must be a call to action. However this is something I have little or no experience in, so I wanted to use this thread to pull our resources.

As a starter for 10, here are some questions to ask you my esteemed Hibees:

How do we ensure that the Hibs board are absolutely clear on our feelings/concerns?
How do we ensure that the Hibs board don't let the supposed inevitable happen?
How do we get other SPL (and SFL) clubs to start the same process at their own clubs?
Admins I would appreciate if you didn't merge this thread, as I think it has merits on its own.

[Captain Trips]

Indeed why should they enjoy 3 in a row and countless other success and then not fully 100% pay for this?

Rangers run correctly would and should still win things anyway as they have a big advantage over most other teams however most other teams have decided to keep house in order at the possible expense of more on field success, Rangers have won things using money that has possibilty to be written off to an extent.

Get them tae **** right away.

[Spike Mandela]

Really it comes down to the stance that Celtic would take on this. If Celtic join with the other 10 clubs to make life difficult for Rangers then they have some leverage. The problem With this may be some other clubs sailing close to administration may be reluctant to set a dangerous precedant.

IMO when Rangers do the inevitable many people will wash their hands of Scottish football. Myself included.

[Mickey Edwards]

Don't have a clue what the response could be but Rangers' financial doping over the past 20 years or so and particularly the past 10 years has handicapped Hibs' financial progress by pushing us into third on two occasions that I can recall, which directly denied us Champions League football. Having attendances 3 or 4 times our level but paying wages 8 to 10 times our level is plain cheating and the phrase "financial doping" should be used liberally in the debate. It is not financial doping when a generous benefactor showers the club in money but it is when this is augmented by criminal tax evasion to allow high wages.

I am pretty sure that we have also been victims of Hearts' financial doping over the past 20 years but they could argue that they are simply recipients of a generous benefactor - we are unable to prove anything else at this moment.

We were victims of Livingston's financial doping in the league cup final in addition to the above but there are no moves afoot to strip clubs of silverware won when they were being run using unfair finances , a la the IOC or TdF when chemical doping charges are proven.

If Rangers return to the SPL with a new name this would evince the fact that there is no sporting benefit to sound and fair financial practice in football. I would be pushing the board to splurge the cash for 20 years or so using "imaginitive accountancy" , buy a few leagues and scottish cups that we cannot afford , taking a 10 point hit and then possibly liquidation.

We would then re-emerge through the East of Scotland League into the SFL as Leith Hibs via Henry McLeish's pyramid structure with our names etched in the record books having won a bunch of silverware with great European adventures that would last in the memory for a generation......what a laugh that would be ; trophy cabinet full and the show keeps rolling on.

[greenlex]

Rangers overspending included amongst others buying Kevin Thomson and Stephen Whittaker. Thoughts?

[Part/Time Supporter]

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?228323-How-do-you-get-an-online-pettion-going&p=3114891#post3114891

[Smidge]

To have any impact, this has to spread wider than football circles. There are a number of politicians starting to make noises about how HMRC should take it easy on Rangers, so I think that is the place to start. Write to your MP and MSP at a minimum, copying to a variety of football stakeholders - e.g. the SPL, SFA, Hibs. We cannot rely on just our club to do something to prevent a massive injustice. Remember the people that are likely to be ripped off the most are taxpayers, so it has to be escalated to the political arena.

[jonty]

Rangers overspending included amongst others buying Kevin Thomson and Stephen Whittaker. Thoughts?

Proof indeed that rangers used their financial muscle to handicap teams in the league by paying over the odds for young talent.
If you can't beat em, buy em.

[I'm_cabbaged]

Rangers overspending included amongst others buying Kevin Thomson and Stephen Whittaker. Thoughts?

Are you trying to say they were the only club that wanted them?

[7 Hills]

Rangers overspending included amongst others buying Kevin Thomson and Stephen Whittaker. Thoughts?

Had they not had the cash to buy them, they'd probably have ended up at Celtic.

[jacomo]

The whole of Scottish football needs shaking up. Having a "new co" Rangers start at the bottom of the SFL again would do just that - invigorate those divisions while the SPL landscape underwent a fundamental change.

You'd have to assume that new Rangers would storm up the tables and be back in the SPL before too long, but in the meantime us or someone else might really go for it against Celtic. Especially as Celtic would have most to lose from diminished TV money - Hibs for example could cope if more fans were persuaded to attend on match days.

As well as being the only just solution, I think this would benefit scottish football as a whole.

Otherwise, if Rangers are allowed to reform in the SPL, the only possible lesson to draw would be that cheats prosper.

[R'Albin]

If the Huns get to restart in the SPL debt-free then I think that some SPL clubs should join forces and agree that they will not play a game as long as the new Huns are in the SPL. The authorities would have to give in to the clubs demands eventually.

[Captain Trips]

Rangers being allowed to reform in SPL is I think down to the clubs in the SPL, on radio saying that ESPN/Sky deal is dependant on Rangers and Celtic competing so if they are to start at bottom then that deal is null and void so money would be lost, however I hope the clubs do not allow Rangers in due to this.

All of us taking that hit means that 4 or 5 clubs will be battling for 2nd (hope 1st) and a no Rangers taking a Eurospot in theory gives another club that chance. The right thing to do is force Rangers out they have done us no favours.

[Newry Hibs]

Some kind of fans protest every time they visit a ground? maybe turning backs for the first 2 minutes. On the 14th of Feb each year (or closet match) have a two minute silence during all SPL matches. Hard / impossible to set up, but it would send a clear message (though would be too late).

[Captain Trips]

"Tell all the huns ye know
Glasgow Rangers are deid and we're no
Theve no paid the tax
So lets face the facts
Glasgow Rangers are deid and we're no oh oh"

And reapeat for ages in next match


Not stricly the case but enjoyable.

[Spike Mandela]

Some kind of fans protest every time they visit a ground? maybe turning backs for the first 2 minutes. On the 14th of Feb each year (or closet match) have a two minute silence during all SPL matches. Hard / impossible to set up, but it would send a clear message (though would be too late).

Yeah, that will really hurt Whyte sipping his pina colado in the Caribbean or indeed any new owner sitting in the stand watching his new £8m forward line ripping us to bits.

Let's face it we are powerless to do **** all in the corrupt cesspit that is Scottish football.

[Andy74]

My thoughts are that its difficult to see an outcome where Rangers now become a run of the mill club.

They still have a vast support to call on, some who will now be even more likely to rally to the cause.

Even living within their means they would still have vast resources to call on compared to the rest of us.

[Captain Trips]

My thoughts are that its difficult to see an outcome where Rangers now become a run of the mill club.

They still have a vast support to call on, some who will now be even more likely to rally to the cause.

Even living within their means they would still have vast resources to call on compared to the rest of us.

Indeed Andy, Rangers starting again in SPL will not really see much change oother than have a lot of fans at other clubs p155ed right off with things as Rangers continue to finish 1st or 2nd.

I really hope they are not allowed back in will at least mean 2 or 3 years of possible 2nd place and more chance of Europe.

[Kato]

They still have a vast support to call on, some who will now be even more likely to rally to the cause.



Dunno about that. When the product on the pitch is poor Rangers fans aren't known to be "Loyal".

[Seveno]

I wanted to start a thread that was about the Rangers situation, though specifically from a Hibs/other SPL clubs perspective...so here its is:

The general concern for all of us is: Rangers will start again in the SPL with no debt.

The general feeling is: this is a massive injustice to the other 'well run clubs' who have endured years of cost cutting just to survive.

Given the above we must not only sit on forums complaining (a great pass time in its self, I grant you), there must be a call to action. However this is something I have little or no experience in, so I wanted to use this thread to pull our resources.

As a starter for 10, here are some questions to ask you my esteemed Hibees:
How do we ensure that the Hibs board are absolutely clear on our feelings/concerns?
How do we ensure that the Hibs board don't let the supposed inevitable happen?
How do we get other SPL (and SFL) clubs to start the same process at their own clubs?
Admins I would appreciate if you didn't merge this thread, as I think it has merits on its own.

1. & 2 Write to the board - board@hibernianfc.co.uk
3. Write to the SPL and your MSP.

Sadly, most people will moan and gripe, then do nothing. If enough people do write then something might be done - never underestimate the effect of people power. If an MSP gets 10 letters on the same subject then they know that it is representative of significant opinion.

[Twa Cairpets]

I posted on the other thread that the time to do somethign is when there is something to do.

At the minute, the club are in administration - that is a legal process, the football sanctions have been applied and that's it for the minute. Until they do go pfft, from a footballing perspective we need to sit tight and make sure that there is an awareness groundswell precisley through such media as forums and websites, otherwise we would rightly be accused of howling at the moon. The demand for action by Hibs/SPL/SFA is predicated on their demise and the resurrection of Newhun FC, and what happens then. We have specifics to counter and argue against, thats when its done, not on the basis of assumptions and what/if/maybe, other than in a general sense.

As for the politics, thats a different matter. It is utterly obscene to me that in the middle of a recession with cutbacks everywhere, ANY public servant can ask for the HMRC to go easy. £75 million? There's 150 covered, indoor 4g football facilities for communities and grassroots football. If your representative states this categorically, write to them and let them know thats your vote gone - not due to football, not due to partisan supporter viewpoint, but due to the obscenity of a business not paying their due when we're cutting back everywhere, abg getting political support. Ask them if they would have the same attitude if it was any other company.

[TheEastTerrace]

From a purely sporting integrity perspective, if Rangers were liquated and formed a phoenix club to transfer the membership of the league to allow them to re-enter the SPL, then the gig's up.

This is a global sport that we (clubs, administrators, fans, governments) all agree that 'cheats should never prosper'. Rangers financially doped the Scottish game, hyperinflating player transfer fees and wages to price the competition out of the title and cup competitions. Drugs cheats are banned for doping to articifically improve performance and are rightly banned for doing so. I see no difference, other than that instead of a ban, Rangers should be forced to re-enter the league pyramid at ground level.

I've heard all the media bluster about sponsorship, TV rights, commercial deals, etc, etc that would suffer as a result of Rangers being booted out the SPL. Not once have I heard anything about the integrity of the SPL and Scottish football. If they were allowed back in, it would set an unhealthy precident forever.

Look at Italy (hardly a bastion of integrity) - Fiorentina went bust and they had to start again from scratch, albeit the authorities then gave them an easier ride back to Serie A. However, the league were not scared to relegate Juventus after Calciopoli - the biggest and most successful club in Italy who cheated the system were demoted to Serie B. The same has to happen here.

What has to happen in this country pronto is the implementation of a club licensing system to hold clubs accountable and promote financially sustainable operation. Otherwise the game is over.

[Part/Time Supporter]

1. & 2 Write to the board - board@hibernianfc.co.uk
3. Write to the SPL and your MSP.

Sadly, most people will moan and gripe, then do nothing. If enough people do write then something might be done - never underestimate the effect of people power. If an MSP gets 10 letters on the same subject then they know that it is representative of significant opinion.

:agree:

It's also worthwhile writing to your MP, because it is HMRC (a UK institution) that is going to take the brunt of what everyone suspects Whyte will do. MPs will also have received correspondence over the last month or so about HMRC being lenient towards Vodafone. If they get correspondence now suggesting that HMRC should fight for every penny out of Rangers, they will be more likely to be sympathetic towards that view in light of that.

[Franck is God]

The only way Rangers can begin next season in the SPL debt free is if all their creditors agree a suitable arrangement for them to come out of administration. If they do agree an IVA they still have to keep to it which will take a lot of their monthly income.

If an agreement can't be reached then they will have to be liquidated, Ibrox, Murray Park and all saleable assets will have to be sold (including players) and any new Rangers will have no assets and have to start at the bottom, it would need a new owner with deep pockets to get them back to the top again.

HMRC are under a lot of pressure to get a big win with a football club, lets hope Rangers are their first big scalp

[St.Kristopher]

Some excellent and practical responses. Thanks guys.


1. & 2 Write to the board - board@hibernianfc.co.uk
3. Write to the SPL and your MSP.

Sadly, most people will moan and gripe, then do nothing. If enough people do write then something might be done - never underestimate the effect of people power. If an MSP gets 10 letters on the same subject then they know that it is representative of significant opinion.

A HM Gov. petition to ensure that our concerns are heard.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/21438
Get it signed and distributed people.


Some kind of fans protest every time they visit a ground? maybe turning backs for the first 2 minutes. On the 14th of Feb each year (or closet match) have a two minute silence during all SPL matches. Hard / impossible to set up, but it would send a clear message (though would be too late).


If the Huns get to restart in the SPL debt-free then I think that some SPL clubs should join forces and agree that they will not play a game as long as the new Huns are in the SPL. The authorities would have to give in to the clubs demands eventually.


The whole of Scottish football needs shaking up. Having a "new co" Rangers start at the bottom of the SFL again would do just that - invigorate those divisions while the SPL landscape underwent a fundamental change.


To have any impact, this has to spread wider than football circles. There are a number of politicians starting to make noises about how HMRC should take it easy on Rangers, so I think that is the place to start. Write to your MP and MSP at a minimum, copying to a variety of football stakeholders - e.g. the SPL, SFA, Hibs. We cannot rely on just our club to do something to prevent a massive injustice. Remember the people that are likely to be ripped off the most are taxpayers, so it has to be escalated to the political arena.

[Newry Hibs]

Yeah, that will really hurt Whyte sipping his pina colado in the Caribbean or indeed any new owner sitting in the stand watching his new £8m forward line ripping us to bits.

Let's face it we are powerless to do **** all in the corrupt cesspit that is Scottish football.

Wasn't aimed at Whyte and his vast selection of cocktails paid for by you and me and other tax payers - but more a signal to the 'authorities'. Yes, I agree a small token of freshness in the large cesspit.

[Albion Hibs]

Rangers wont be walking away from this one, it is far too public for the HMRC to take a bath on rangers not paying up all or most of what they are due. They will take a beating and in my view it will take them a long, long time to get over it fully, if at all.

The HMRC will be looking to set an example and put down a marker as to how they will conduct themselves with football clubs. I think rangers will be the first of many with the good thing being this will lead to tighter regulation and monitoring of clubs ensuring they are not able to get away with living so far beyond their means.

Whilst on the above basis celtic and rangers will still be ahead as a result of bigger crowds, advertisement and tv money, the gap may be decreased between 2nd and 3rd.

[johnrebus]

I have a feeling that HMRC have no intention of, 'going easy' on the Hun, no matter how much anguished hand wringing goes on. There is every possibility that they will be liquidated.

They will return of course - in some form or other - whether that is immediately to the SPL or not I don't know.

Pretty sure though that that the, 'massive support', will largely dissapear like snow off a dike - with a knock on effect on the Plastic Paddies along the road.

Expect fresh pleas from Celtic Park to the Premiership for admittance. Without their bumchums, the 'tic are nothing........,


With both of them off the scene, you may well see attendances increase and interest rekindled in the game accross the country. I've got this great idea of playing matches on a Saturday afternoon with a three o'clock kick off in stadiums with no TV cameras present.

Ach, it'll never catch on........,

:cb

[Joe Baker II]

I wanted to start a thread that was about the Rangers situation, though specifically from a Hibs/other SPL clubs perspective...so here its is:

The general concern for all of us is: Rangers will start again in the SPL with no debt.

The general feeling is: this is a massive injustice to the other 'well run clubs' who have endured years of cost cutting just to survive.

Given the above we must not only sit on forums complaining (a great pass time in its self, I grant you), there must be a call to action. However this is something I have little or no experience in, so I wanted to use this thread to pull our resources.

As a starter for 10, here are some questions to ask you my esteemed Hibees:

How do we ensure that the Hibs board are absolutely clear on our feelings/concerns?
How do we ensure that the Hibs board don't let the supposed inevitable happen?
How do we get other SPL (and SFL) clubs to start the same process at their own clubs?
Admins I would appreciate if you didn't merge this thread, as I think it has merits on its own.

Hibs were in a similar situation in 1991, are you saying it was unfair that we won the 1991 League Cup etc?

[jacomo]

From a purely sporting integrity perspective, if Rangers were liquated and formed a phoenix club to transfer the membership of the league to allow them to re-enter the SPL, then the gig's up.

This is a global sport that we (clubs, administrators, fans, governments) all agree that 'cheats should never prosper'. Rangers financially doped the Scottish game, hyperinflating player transfer fees and wages to price the competition out of the title and cup competitions. Drugs cheats are banned for doping to articifically improve performance and are rightly banned for doing so. I see no difference, other than that instead of a ban, Rangers should be forced to re-enter the league pyramid at ground level.

I've heard all the media bluster about sponsorship, TV rights, commercial deals, etc, etc that would suffer as a result of Rangers being booted out the SPL. Not once have I heard anything about the integrity of the SPL and Scottish football. If they were allowed back in, it would set an unhealthy precident forever.

Look at Italy (hardly a bastion of integrity) - Fiorentina went bust and they had to start again from scratch, albeit the authorities then gave them an easier ride back to Serie A. However, the league were not scared to relegate Juventus after Calciopoli - the biggest and most successful club in Italy who cheated the system were demoted to Serie B. The same has to happen here.

What has to happen in this country pronto is the implementation of a club licensing system to hold clubs accountable and promote financially sustainable operation. Otherwise the game is over.

:agree:

Good post.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Hibs were in a similar situation in 1991, are you saying it was unfair that we won the 1991 League Cup etc?

The situations aren't comparable. Hibs were in trouble in the early 90s because the previous owners attached those wine bars and property to the football business. Farmer then separated the two activities, allowing the football club to continue free from the debt associated with the other trades.

[jgl07]

Hibs were in a similar situation in 1991, are you saying it was unfair that we won the 1991 League Cup etc?

And precisely when did Hibs go into administration?

[southern hibby]

E-Mail sent to the Board, lets see if I get a reply.To Whom It May Concern, I have supported Edinburgh Hibernian Football Club, as far back as I can remember. I go to all games I can, travelling from Portsmouth where I was based ( I am in the Royal Navy) or from Oxfordshire where I now live. I have travelled back from the Falkland Island's (8500 miles) just to watch Hibs against Dunfermline (0-0 draw and we played crap). I would go every week if I could afford the travelling money. Why? Because I live and Sleep Hibernian F.C. I am leaving the Armed Forces in 2 years time and moving back to Edinburgh and will be HONOURED to pull on the green once again, home and away. However for this to happen I must insist the HIBS Board fight with every fibre of honour it has against Rangers being allowed straight back into the SPL if they go into liquidation. I understand the money the could loose from TV rights and also less fans per season turning up to Easter Road, namely Rangers fans, would hit us hard too. That said I feel I cannot pay my cash to watch my team knowing the league is corrupt and biased. How can the board expect to put out a team to compete with another team that has blatantly broken the rules for numerous years to buy trophy after trophy, with TAX PAYER's MONEY that it has no intention of paying back. They will be reformed with no debt yet our club has pulled its purse strings shut to avoid this happening to us. I have read since this has started HOW SCOTTISH FOOTBALL WILL NOT SURVIVE without the OLD FIRM. Be under no illusion these teams would up sticks tomorrow and move to England if they were allowed entry into the EPL. Their arrogance has astounded normally football fans in Scotland for years with this attitude they should just walk into the EPL. This is one of the reasons I believe Rangers have done what they did because they will tickle our belly and we as a nation will roll over and allow this to happen. Lets be honest here England will not allow them into their top flight with out coming through the leagues first, so if they re-form WHY MUST WE? Lets not mess about with trivial points here. Scottish football is at a cross roads of corruption and Bankruptcy and our club through our directors have a moral obligation to the fans to do the best for the club. To this point can I please ask the board to write to all season ticket holders and personnel on our data base to see what the general feeling is (from our supporters ) to allowing Rangers back into the SPL if it comes to this. Surely as fans we deserve the right to a vote on this. Or at least our opinion taking into account. Our club was saved from extinction; I know I was there through it all. However, our board has a chance to now help save Scottish football from the ill wind it now faces. If not then I can categorically confirm I will not be back to SPL Football, because of the cheating and corruption within the game as it may proven to be. Please, please, please think very, very carefully before casting your vote on this issue.GGTTH.

[ancienthibby]

The only way Rangers can begin next season in the SPL debt free is if all their creditors agree a suitable arrangement for them to come out of administration. If they do agree an IVA they still have to keep to it which will take a lot of their monthly income.

If an agreement can't be reached then they will have to be liquidated, Ibrox, Murray Park and all saleable assets will have to be sold (including players) and any new Rangers will have no assets and have to start at the bottom, it would need a new owner with deep pockets to get them back to the top again.

HMRC are under a lot of pressure to get a big win with a football club, lets hope Rangers are their first big scalp


You are right in general terms, but one C Whyte has a floating charge over Ipox, Murray Parks and the car park. He will hold onto these assets as a preferred creditor, so their value will not be available to the Administrator.

Or, does anyone ken if a Floating Charge can be set aside, if the principal beneficiary of the charge is also the largest shareholder??

Stories today suggest C Whyte is already back in Monaco. Will he ever be seen again until the process is over and he has set up NewHunCo to which he leases the stadium and Murray Park at exorbitant rents.

Anyone know about 'wrongful trading'? As I have understood it in the past, it's more than likely that this would the case with Rankgers since C Whyte took over, given the non-payment of VAT and NIC. His days as a company director may be coming to an end.:greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

And precisely when did Hibs go into administration?

http://www.scottishfootballblog.co.uk/2010/06/dave-david-hibs-and-politics.html

[soupy]

Hibs were in a similar situation in 1991, are you saying it was unfair that we won the 1991 League Cup etc?

Eh, how's this the same?????

[Smidge]

You are right in general terms, but one C Whyte has a floating charge over Ipox, Murray Parks and the car park. He will hold onto these assets as a preferred creditor, so their value will not be available to the Administrator.

The floating charge holder will only be entitled to recover the amount equivalent to the value of his debt. In practice, this may end up being the transfer of one or more of the major assets, with short odds on this being Snake Mountain itself.


Or, does anyone ken if a Floating Charge can be set aside, if the principal beneficiary of the charge is also the largest shareholder??

That usually depends how long its been in place. If it had been a short time - called the "hardening period" and usually 6 months or less - then there's a good chance it could be set aside. However, much coverage has been given previously to the fact that the security rights derive from the Bond & Floating Charge granted to the Governor & Company of the Bank of Scotland (subsequently inherited by Bank of Scotland plc and then Lloyds Banking Group plc) in the late 1990s I think. This has been assigned to the parent company - originally called Wavetower Limited, but now something else.


Stories today suggest C Whyte is already back in Monaco. Will he ever be seen again until the process is over and he has set up NewHunCo to which he leases the stadium and Murray Park at exorbitant rents.

If I was being nice, I would suggest he is understandably getting out of dodge in order to avoid the massive amount of heat he'll be getting. But I'm not being nice, so I suspect he is away to celebrate a good job done :-)


Anyone know about 'wrongful trading'? As I have understood it in the past, it's more than likely that this would the case with Rankgers since C Whyte took over, given the non-payment of VAT and NIC. His days as a company director may be coming to an end.:greengrin

If it is true that he (a) lied about the source of finance for the takeover, (b) borrowed the Ticketus money before taking over, and (c) willfully withheld PAYE and VAT from HMRC, then yes, I suspect there may be a case for action of some sort. However, whether this is technically "wrongful trading", I'm not so sure - it's been a while since I had a look at that.

[jgl07]

http://www.scottishfootballblog.co.uk/2010/06/dave-david-hibs-and-politics.html

I don't recall Hibs refusing to pay debts. The one who lost out were the shareholders in the old company.

Shortly afterwards Hibs were paying £500,000 for Keith Wright so they can't have been that badly off.

[CropleyWasGod]

.

If it is true that he (a) lied about the source of finance for the takeover, (b) borrowed the Ticketus money before taking over, and (c) willfully withheld PAYE and VAT from HMRC, then yes, I suspect there may be a case for action of some sort. However, whether this is technically "wrongful trading", I'm not so sure - it's been a while since I had a look at that.

If this is true, and he used the Ticketus money to fund the takeover, then he has no debt due from Rangers. His charge is therefore useless.

However, Ticketus may have had the charge transferred to them.

Charges are normally lodged with Companies House. When I have time, I might go and have a look....

[Smidge]

If this is true, and he used the Ticketus money to fund the takeover, then he has no debt due from Rangers. His charge is therefore useless.

However, Ticketus may have had the charge transferred to them.

Charges are normally lodged with Companies House. When I have time, I might go and have a look....

I would love to know if he has still actually got a debt owed to him (or his company) by Rangers and if he still holds the security. Unfortunately, I can no longer search for these things so I'd be very interested in what CH says. Even if it's been an assignment of security, I'm fairly sure that needs to be registered within the required 21 days.

[CropleyWasGod]

I would love to know if he has still actually got a debt owed to him (or his company) by Rangers and if he still holds the security. Unfortunately, I can no longer search for these things so I'd be very interested in what CH says. Even if it's been an assignment of security, I'm fairly sure that needs to be registered within the required 21 days.

I have just had a wee look.

Other than a charge in favour of Close Leasing, which looks like something to do with the catering equipment in the stadium, I can't see anything relating to CW, or Wavetower or Liberty Capital or Ticketus having a charge.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course. Given his previous history, it probably just hasn't been filed. :rolleyes:

[Smidge]

I have just had a wee look.

Other than a charge in favour of Close Leasing, which looks like something to do with the catering equipment in the stadium, I can't see anything relating to CW, or Wavetower or Liberty Capital or Ticketus having a charge.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course. Given his previous history, it probably just hasn't been filed. :rolleyes:

Does it show the previous floating charge having been discharged then?

[CropleyWasGod]

Does it show the previous floating charge having been discharged then?

Not that I can see, and I went back to 2009, pre-CW.

[ancienthibby]

The floating charge holder will only be entitled to recover the amount equivalent to the value of his debt. In practice, this may end up being the transfer of one or more of the major assets, with short odds on this being Snake Mountain itself.



That usually depends how long its been in place. If it had been a short time - called the "hardening period" and usually 6 months or less - then there's a good chance it could be set aside. However, much coverage has been given previously to the fact that the security rights derive from the Bond & Floating Charge granted to the Governor & Company of the Bank of Scotland (subsequently inherited by Bank of Scotland plc and then Lloyds Banking Group plc) in the late 1990s I think. This has been assigned to the parent company - originally called Wavetower Limited, but now something else.



If I was being nice, I would suggest he is understandably getting out of dodge in order to avoid the massive amount of heat he'll be getting. But I'm not being nice, so I suspect he is away to celebrate a good job done :-)





If it is true that he (a) lied about the source of finance for the takeover, (b) borrowed the Ticketus money before taking over, and (c) willfully withheld PAYE and VAT from HMRC, then yes, I suspect there may be a case for action of some sort. However, whether this is technically "wrongful trading", I'm not so sure - it's been a while since I had a look at that.

Thanks kindly, Mr Smidge - very helpful!

[Smidge]

Not that I can see, and I went back to 2009, pre-CW.

Interesting, this could mean that he has gone unsecured in a bid to have a significant say in any CVA. Potentially, it's a gamble that the big tax bill will not be taken into account in this instance, hoping that any other manoeuvrings will knock it into the long grass for good.

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting, this could mean that he has gone unsecured in a bid to have a significant say in any CVA. Potentially, it's a gamble that the big tax bill will not be taken into account in this instance, hoping that any other manoeuvrings will knock it into the long grass for good.

But would he have any say in the CVA if there is no debt? (ie if, as I suspect, he took the Ticketus money to pay off Lloyds TSB).

[Smidge]

But would he have any say in the CVA if there is no debt? (ie if, as I suspect, he took the Ticketus money to pay off Lloyds TSB).

Obviously not, but I would be surprised if he was stupid enough to structure the Ticketus debt so that he removes himself from the picture in administration. Maybe the football club mortgaged the STs to their parent company who then mortgaged then onto Ticketus? This would have the parent company as intermediary lender and might construct the necessary grounds.

On Twitter, @rangerstaxcase says that HMRC will block any CVA pending the outcome of the tribunal anyway, so this point could be moot.

[CropleyWasGod]

Obviously not, but I would be surprised if he was stupid enough to structure the Ticketus debt so that he removes himself from the picture in administration. Maybe the football club mortgaged the STs to their parent company who then mortgaged then onto Ticketus? This would have the parent company as intermediary lender and might construct the necessary grounds.

On Twitter, @rangerstaxcase says that HMRC will block any CVA pending the outcome of the tribunal anyway, so this point could be moot.

I had a look at the parent company too. Wavetower (now the Rangers Group Limited). No mention there of any charges either.

Looking at the potential of the CVA:-

HMRC owed £9m
Ticketus owed £24m (perhaps with security)
CW maybe owed £18m (perhaps with security).

Ticketus alone don't have the 75% to push it through. But then, why would they?

[Smidge]

I had a look at the parent company too. Wavetower (now the Rangers Group Limited). No mention there of any charges either.

Looking at the potential of the CVA:-

HMRC owed £9m
Ticketus owed £24m (perhaps with security)
CW maybe owed £18m (perhaps with security).

Ticketus alone don't have the 75% to push it through. But then, why would they?

They would need to push it through in order to sell 25,000 STs next year and recoup the debt.

I think this is the game that Whyte may be playing but it relies on HMRC not challenging a CVA before the First Tier Tribunal has delivered its verdict, which is very unlikely. That's why the pressure needs to be kept on our elected politicians so they don't give into the inevitable pleas about the community benefit of RFC.

[Keith_M]

Hibs were in a similar situation in 1991, are you saying it was unfair that we won the 1991 League Cup etc?

Going on the basis that you really are that thick and you can't genuinely see the difference....


Rangers have been shown to have for years paid players wages they could not afford and are now in deep doo financially as a result. They now intend to totally stiff everyone to whom they owe money, including the Taxpayer (presumably including you). The have a cabinet full of trophies as a result of this 'cheating'.


Hibs were in financial trouble and were rescued. They paid off their debts and AFTER that won a trophy. The trophy was not as a result of any dodgy financial practices at Hibs to buy trophies. They were stiffed by a shrewd operator (Rowland) and two numbnuts (Duff and Gray).


Why don't you toddle over to Follow Follow, I'm sure they'll just lap up your warped viewpoint over there.

:bye:

[WindyMiller]

I have just had a wee look.

Other than a charge in favour of Close Leasing, which looks like something to do with the catering equipment in the stadium, I can't see anything relating to CW, or Wavetower or Liberty Capital or Ticketus having a charge.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course. Given his previous history, it probably just hasn't been filed. :rolleyes:

Interesting!

I was talking with a Hun S.T. to-day and he was saying that some odd things have been going on for a while.
On Saturday, for instance, every second catering section was closed. :dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting!

I was talking with a Hun S.T. to-day and he was saying that some odd things have been going on for a while.
On Saturday, for instance, every second catering section was closed. :dunno:

God, this is getting like Columbo :greengrin

In one of Whyte's earlier pronouncements, he said that he had "deposited the sum of £33m in a bank account in November 2010; these funds were for his proposed takeover. This would be the pot of cash to pay off debt to Lloyds, which when the deal went through was £18m, and also to inject working capital of £5m, allocate £5m for new players, £1.7m for stadium improvements and £2.8m to pay a historic tax bill to HMRC over a discounted options scheme."

So, the stadium improvements were.... da da daaaaahhhhh..... closing the mingin pie stands!!!!

£1.7m for a few roller shutters???:rolleyes: