Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[JimBHibees]

Jim Traynor really has become Apologist in Chief for the Rangers cause..........

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/footbal...6908-23895126/


“A newco will have to shoulder the responsibility and possibly even the punishments of the old company if they want the licences to play.”
Yet outside, in the real world, a newco would have a clean slate but in Scottish football’s parallel universe corporate and civil laws don’t always apply.
And when they do it’s only to suit the authorities’ agendas."

No outrage at the tax avoidance, no outrage the sporting advantage gained and no outrage at the sheer enormity of this clubs scandal and lack of acceptance of guilt.Certainly no case put for simplythe fact that the right thing has to be seen to be done.

Outrage though at Rangers not getting a free ride and a sly dig at the authoities 'agenda' and a clear ignoring of the asset stripping agenda of Charles Green.

The campaign is on full throttle now to get Rangers an easy route back in. Sickening

Why isnt he and his paper more critical or critical in any way of SDM's role in all of this? I think I have an idea. How is Jackson's legal case against John Collins getting on? :rolleyes:

[Andy74]

From the DR website,

Forget about playing in Europe, we might not even be playing in Glasgow.” But he then added: “The solemn promise I can make to Rangers fans today is that this club will continue as Rangers Football Club and will continue to play at Ibrox Stadium.


So how is able to move Ibrox and Where would he move it to?

An empty promise as he may not be the eventual owner if BDO find a more attractive offer.

Although it lloks like the sale of assets is going to take place before liquidation.

I really don't get how it can be done when creditors should fully expect some sort of market value.

What exactly will there be left to liquidate? Looks to me like the only thin they will be doing is investigations into the past.

[JimBHibees]

Patience, Kato, patience - it's all going to come out in the wash thanks to Hector!:agree:

And this thread will double in size as the new soap storyline unfolds week after week.

By opting for liquidation, Hector has opened the door for the liquidators (BDO) to pursue all Hunco directors over the past three years and I suspect that is something that BDO will already have been instructed about.

Can't wait for the result to be published tomorrow and watch a Securicor van pull out of the back entrance to Ipox with Duff and Duffer hiding inside while the BDO boys walk through the front door armed to the teeth with robust mandates.:cb

There will be no easy sleeps for all the ex-Hunco directors and no hiding places either.:aok:

Bet you the shredder will be working overtime at the moment.

[JimBHibees]

A real journalist speaks....(in 1976) Ian Archer - a true Jag

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9913/ianarcher.jpg

30 years on and what really has changed.

[jgl07]

Jim Traynor really has become Apologist in Chief for the Rangers cause..........

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/footbal...6908-23895126/


“A newco will have to shoulder the responsibility and possibly even the punishments of the old company if they want the licences to play.”
Yet outside, in the real world, a newco would have a clean slate but in Scottish football’s parallel universe corporate and civil laws don’t always apply.
And when they do it’s only to suit the authorities’ agendas."

No outrage at the tax avoidance, no outrage the sporting advantage gained and no outrage at the sheer enormity of this clubs scandal and lack of acceptance of guilt.Certainly no case put for simplythe fact that the right thing has to be seen to be done.

Outrage though at Rangers not getting a free ride and a sly dig at the authoities 'agenda' and a clear ignoring of the asset stripping agenda of Charles Green.

The campaign is on full throttle now to get Rangers an easy route back in. Sickening

That't funny. He was on the radio last night arguing for Rangers to be demoted top SFL3.

[Kato]

30 years on and what really has changed.

They used to have to hand make their own sectarian banners and scarfs.

Now there are companies and printers who cash in and make sectarian products for them.

[JimBHibees]

They used to have to hand make their own sectarian banners and scarfs.

Now there are companies and printers who cash in and make sectarian products for them.

:agree::greengrin

[johnrebus]

If Green pulls off this deal to get hold of all the assets for a paltry £5.5m then it will go down as grand larceny.

Have seen it reported that neither HMRC or Ticketus will object to this. HMRC are more interested in pursuing Murray and Whyte, with Ticketus going after Craigie boy in the courts.

I feel that Duff & Phelps are going to get their erses skelped big time. We have yet to see the result of the Administrators regulatory body's investigation into the conflict of interest allegation on BBC Scotland and surely this, 'binding agreement', with Green has to also come under scrutiny?

We are told by D&P that the Rangers newco will retain the history, trophies etc. etc. when this is blatantly untrue - a new company is just that - new - there is no link to the past. Then we are told that the players contracts will automatically switch to the newco - also untrue, which a quick look at the Employment Act would have told them.

Charlie Green is a wide boy looking to make a fast buck out of the Hun, nothing more, nothing less. He is a smarter, Yorkshire version of Craig Whyte. But it has taken him so long to come up with any cash, from the so called group of twenty, er, sorry six (mystery) investors, that D&P should have booted him out weeks ago.

If I were a Hun - God Forbid - I would be seeing Duff & Phelps in the same light as Murray & Craig.



Incompetent or corrupt?

Or both.


:cb

[Spike Mandela]

That't funny. He was on the radio last night arguing for Rangers to be demoted top SFL3.

Yes I heard that as well but his argument was that it would be easier for Rangers to work their way up from the third than go into the SPL heavily sanctioned. He was also implying that it would be a way to make the other clubs suffer.

I honestly never used to think he Favoured the OF over other clubs but he has shown his true colours spectacularly during this whole saga. Anyone who buys the Daily Record needs their head examined imo.

[Hibbyradge]

For those who think it will be business at usual for Newco Rangers at Ibrox, I have a couple of questions.

How much are Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion Car Park worth on the open market to property developers etc?

Why would HMRC allow the liquidators to sell them all to Green for only £5.5m when they are owed in excess of £20m...so far?

Why did they reject a CVA worth £8.5m in the knowledge that only £5.5m was waiting?

[cad]

30 years on and what really has changed.




Generations in the future ,50 ,100, 150 years from now will blame the people who had the chance to change Scottish football and didnt ,
its make your mind up time , keep them in what ever form or do football a big favour and finish them while you have the chance .

[HFC 0-7]

For those who think it will be business at usual for Newco Rangers at Ibrox, I have a couple of questions.

How much are Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion Car Park worth on the open market to property developers etc?

Why would HMRC allow the liquidators to sell them all to Green for only £5.5m when they are owed in excess of £20m...so far?

Why did they reject a CVA worth £8.5m in the knowledge that only £5.5m was waiting?

I originally thought that creditora, HMRC in particular, would not allow the sale for 5.5 million, but now I wonder if they rejected the CVA just to be able to investigate further. Perhaps they know they wont get that much extra and are willing to sacrifice a bit of cash if it means they can fully investigate and perhaps prosecute. It would be a strong message to others in the footballing world that HMRC can get you. I hope im wrong though, and after Thursdays meeting HMRC announce they have blocked the sale to greene, bumped D&P out the door and have their own team in putting a price to everything and are willing to sell everything individually to the highest bidder!

[johnrebus]

[QUOTE=Hibbyradge;3261721]For those who think it will be business at usual for Newco Rangers at Ibrox, I have a couple of questions.

How much are Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion Car Park worth on the open market to property developers etc?

I don't think they own the car park, but remember a figure of £110m being put on the other assets.


Why would HMRC allow the liquidators to sell them all to Green for only £5.5m when they are owed in excess of £20m...so far?

Because a, 'binding agreement' , was done between D&P and Green a number of weeks back if the CVA fell through. Mind you, I still don't see how they can get away with it.

Why did they reject a CVA worth £8.5m in the knowledge that only £5.5m was waiting?

Because they seem to think there will be potentially more for the pot if they go after the former directors of the club, eg Murray & Whyte. Apparently there would have not have been the same scope to do this under a CVA.

[HibeeMG]

A few people are now asking if HMRC will allow the £5.5m purchase of the Rangers assets by Green.

My question to the people in the know is, does a creditor have to object to this sale? Or can BDO, as liquidators, object to it?

[CropleyWasGod]

For those who think it will be business at usual for Newco Rangers at Ibrox, I have a couple of questions.

How much are Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion Car Park worth on the open market to property developers etc?

Why would HMRC allow the liquidators to sell them all to Green for only £5.5m when they are owed in excess of £20m...so far?

Why did they reject a CVA worth £8.5m in the knowledge that only £5.5m was waiting?

1. as much as they will pay. Sorry to be so unhelpful, but that's it. There are restrictions on what can be done with Ibrox and Murray Park, which will deflate their potential value.

2. they haven't yet. Any creditor has the right to block, or reverse, a disposal of assets if they feel their interests are being prejudiced. That said, Cav (and I, too, for that matter) has doubts that the properties are part of the £5.5m deal.

3. I am hoping that, as a combination of 1 and 2, they think there is more value in the properties. The alternative, as someone has said, is that they may want the opportunity to dig deeper into the RFC history and extract some value from the former directors.

[MyJo]

For those who think it will be business at usual for Newco Rangers at Ibrox, I have a couple of questions.

How much are Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion Car Park worth on the open market to property developers etc?

Why would HMRC allow the liquidators to sell them all to Green for only £5.5m when they are owed in excess of £20m...so far?

Why did they reject a CVA worth £8.5m in the knowledge that only £5.5m was waiting?

The CVA was practically worthless to HMRC in monetery terms and by accepting it they would have set a precedent for future situations involving football clubs living beyond thier means and stiffing the taxman to do it. Accepting the CVA also meant that there was a line drawn under everything including the big tax case and the conduct and actions of RFC directors and owners would be swept under the carpet.

What HMRC are doing is writing of the tuppence they would get from the CVA in the hopes of recovering more money from individuals involved in the systematic defrauding of HMRC over several years at the big hoose and sending a clear message to all of football that if you dont pay your taxes we'll ****** you good and proper.

They wont care what happens to the club and the assets given the route that they are going down but there are many many other creditors including ticketus, rapid vienna, hearts who could object to the selling of the club to Green and challenge that it is not the best deal available to the creditors.

[StevieC]

Stream of consciousness reporting

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4369672/Culprits-must-pay-price-after-killing-off-my-club.html#ixzz1xdIhsp1V

"The whole thing is just so sad. I look back and think about all the medals I won at Ibrox.
Leading Gers to Nine in a Row, the League Cups and Scottish Cups"

These will be the "tainted" medals and cups that you won with the dual-contracts and the cheating then Mr Gough?

:rolleyes:


"I had Andy Goram on the phone as soon as I woke up and he couldn’t get his head round it. Like me, he wanted answers"

No. Like you, he's just a bit bigoted (as well as being thick as ****) and seem to think that everyone "owes" Rangers something!

[johnrebus]

The CVA was practically worthless to HMRC in monetery terms and by accepting it they would have set a precedent for future situations involving football clubs living beyond thier means and stiffing the taxman to do it. Accepting the CVA also meant that there was a line drawn under everything including the big tax case and the conduct and actions of RFC directors and owners would be swept under the carpet.

What HMRC are doing is writing of the tuppence they would get from the CVA in the hopes of recovering more money from individuals involved in the systematic defrauding of HMRC over several years at the big hoose and sending a clear message to all of football that if you dont pay your taxes we'll ****** you good and proper.

They wont care what happens to the club and the assets given the route that they are going down but there are many many other creditors including ticketus, rapid vienna, hearts who could object to the selling of the club to Green and challenge that it is not the best deal available to the creditors.


Yes, but this 'binding agreement' we keep hearing about is likely to be concluded in the next couple of days.

Someone will have to move fast to prevent it. Surely?


:confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

The CVA was practically worthless to HMRC in monetery terms and by accepting it they would have set a precedent for future situations involving football clubs living beyond thier means and stiffing the taxman to do it. Accepting the CVA also meant that there was a line drawn under everything including the big tax case and the conduct and actions of RFC directors and owners would be swept under the carpet.

What HMRC are doing is writing of the tuppence they would get from the CVA in the hopes of recovering more money from individuals involved in the systematic defrauding of HMRC over several years at the big hoose and sending a clear message to all of football that if you dont pay your taxes we'll ****** you good and proper.

They wont care what happens to the club and the assets given the route that they are going down but there are many many other creditors including ticketus, rapid vienna, hearts who could object to the selling of the club to Green and challenge that it is not the best deal available to the creditors.


Yes, but this 'binding agreement' we keep hearing about is likely to be concluded in the next couple of days.

Someone will have to move fast to prevent it. Surely?


:confused:

Deals can be reversed through the Courts.

However, it wouldn't surprise me if HMRC/BDO have a Court action ready, to put a block on the sale of any assets.

[Stevie Reid]

Charles Paterson said on SSN this morning that he understands that the deal that Green has in place to buy the club for £5.5M is not as straightforward as he is making out.

[Just Alf]

The CVA was practically worthless to HMRC in monetery terms and by accepting it they would have set a precedent for future situations involving football clubs living beyond thier means and stiffing the taxman to do it. Accepting the CVA also meant that there was a line drawn under everything including the big tax case and the conduct and actions of RFC directors and owners would be swept under the carpet.

What HMRC are doing is writing of the tuppence they would get from the CVA in the hopes of recovering more money from individuals involved in the systematic defrauding of HMRC over several years at the big hoose and sending a clear message to all of football that if you dont pay your taxes we'll ****** you good and proper.

They wont care what happens to the club and the assets given the route that they are going down but there are many many other creditors including ticketus, rapid vienna, hearts who could object to the selling of the club to Green and challenge that it is not the best deal available to the creditors.


Yes, but this 'binding agreement' we keep hearing about is likely to be concluded in the next couple of days.

Someone will have to move fast to prevent it. Surely?


:confused:

IIRC, it was binding on Chaz only...... effectively if the CVA failed he was a backstip.... D&P don't have to implement the condition.

And as CWG says.... even if completed and BDO turn up and say "hang on this ain't right", then the transaction can be reversed after the fact.

[blackpoolhibs]

Charles Paterson said on SSN this morning that he understands that the deal that Green has in place to buy the club for £5.5M is not as straightforward as he is making out.

Thats no surprise is it, he's bull ****ted from the moment he entered the building. :rolleyes:

[hibs0666]

Charles Paterson said on SSN this morning that he understands that the deal that Green has in place to buy the club for £5.5M is not as straightforward as he is making out.

Green can still back out from the deal if the currant buns are banned from any competitions. I'm assuming that the European ban already gives him the necessary wriggle room. However, an additional suspension from the SFA and/or SPL will see him disappear faster than you can say 'quick buck'.

[CropleyWasGod]

Green can still back out from the deal if the currant buns are banned from any competitions. I'm assuming that the European ban already gives him the necessary wriggle room. However, an additional suspension from the SFA and/or SPL will see him disappear faster than you can say 'quick buck'.

IIRC, it was "only" Scottish competitions that the get-out clause referred to.

[Stevie Reid]

Thats no surprise is it, he's bull ****ted from the moment he entered the building. :rolleyes:

Absolutely not, but it was still nice to hear that it isn't a definite to go ahead.

[Nazz]

Fixtures are easy to adjust. There are set formula to allow you to prevent home clashes for as many pairs of teams as you want. Dundee Utd could be paired with a team that isn't an issue (eg St Johnstone) and if Dundee are the team that replaces Rangers then St Johnstone take on Rangers fixtures and Dundee take on St Johnstones.

The only issue is how quickly they decide on the final league setup


That would work too.

[johnrebus]

Thats no surprise is it, he's bull ****ted from the moment he entered the building. :rolleyes:


:agree:

But in a way you have to admire him.

He cares not a jot for the Hun or Scottish Fitba. All he sees is 40,000 gullible would be season ticket holders waiting to part with their readies and he wants some of that.

Balls of steel.

[blackpoolhibs]

:agree:

But in a way you have to admire him.

He cares not a jot for the Hun or Scottish Fitba. All he sees is 40,000 gullible would be season ticket holders waiting to part with their readies and he wants some of that.

Balls of steel.

:agree: He wants to be in and out in a year, with his pockets bulging with cash. Why else would he be involved?

[Planet Hibs]

Anyone think whining mccoist will be in charge of a newco in div 3? Although cant think who else would want him

[Benny Brazil]

From todays Sun:

CHARLES GREEN last night warned SPL rivals: Boot out Rangers and you will KILL our game.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4369803/Bury-us-and-you-kill-Scottish-football.html#ixzz1xfPzMxrj

Our game?? This guy has been in the country 2 secs and suddenly he knows all about Scottish Football.

I thought last night I was pleased that HMRC had made their decision - it might mean we can get an end to this farce that has dragged Scottish Football through the gutter for the last 3 months - seems like the real drama is only just about to begin - the SFA/SPL must be quaking in their boots, the SPL chairmen must be panicking - one thing that isnt though is the non Rankgers fans resolve that they must be kicked out of the SPL.

edit: I see our Hibs Fans Chief has changed his mind on this as well

[JimBHibees]

Yes I heard that as well but his argument was that it would be easier for Rangers to work their way up from the third than go into the SPL heavily sanctioned. He was also implying that it would be a way to make the other clubs suffer.

I honestly never used to think he Favoured the OF over other clubs but he has shown his true colours spectacularly during this whole saga. Anyone who buys the Daily Record needs their head examined imo.

Completely agree. He and all his lackeys have shown their true colours throughout this shambles.

[PatHead]

Its a strange one. The fixtures that will include Rangers are put in place so they don't clash with Celtic at home. If say Dundee were included instead, what happens if Rangers were meant to be at home to say Hibs but Dundee replace them and are at home to us on the same day Utd are too? I think they need to re think how they are going to work it all out.

Sky and ESPN will move all the fixtures anyway as they wouldn't be able to show Celtic and Rangers away on alternate weeks.

[CropleyWasGod]

Completely agree. He and all his lackeys have shown their true colours throughout this shambles.

Except for Keith Jackson, who broke the Ticketus story last July. Without that, we may have been none the wiser.

[cocteautwin]

HMRC will recover their monies due, with interest, from the individuals involved in the case, including:

David Murray
Craig Whyte

and every single person paid through the EBT. These are individuals with a lot of money. They'll be pursued for non payment of taxes. The only argument will be whether the money paid through the EBT is to be considered a gross or net payment to the individuals involved.

Assuming the 47m is all paid at higher rate, HMRC Is looking at a relatively easy recovery from the individuals of 40% x 47m = approx 19m.

[Seveno]

Except for Keith Jackson, who broke the Ticketus story last July. Without that, we may have been none the wiser.

Unless you were following the award winning blog 'rangerstaxcase', of course.

[Stevie Reid]

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/

The announcement that HMRC would oppose the CVA proposal for rescuing Rangers FC is just a few hours old, and I thought that a quick post was due. However, I do not have any new information. I just wanted to move this blog-page along.

As it starts to sink in that The Rangers Football Club plc is now destined to end in corporate failure and liquidation, the questions are coming thick and fast as to what happens next.

The simplest answer is that there are too many permutations to provide a certain path forward. HMRC had previously indicated that they would want Duff & Phelps replaced by BDO as liquidators. I expect that they will want ‘clean hands’ from this point on and that there will be fresh faces atop the marble staircase within a few days. However, it is possible that the liquidators will want to proceed with an asset sale to Green. Other bidders may emerge (or reemerge).

Given the tiny amounts that would be raised in a public fire-sale, it does appear that an asset sale to a newco is almost certain. So a new organisation purporting to represent the legacy of The Rangers Football Club plc will emerge. However, if they are to be playing in any league next season the asset sale will have to be unopposed. If there are legal challenges to a sale, we could see at least one season without any Rangers-type team.

The focus will soon turn to the SFA and the SPL. The ruling bodies of professional football in Scotland have the responsibility to determine whether a newco attempting to transfer Rangers’ league ‘share’ and SFA membership will be allowed to join the top flight of the Scottish game- and if so- when. What must be clear is that any organisation that has bought another club’s share / membership must also face the punishments that awaited the old club. To allow a newco-Rangers to ditch its legacy responsibilities will be to set an expectation that others can do likewise. The battleground is now going to shift and we can expect a massive effort to convince us that an SPL without Rangers would be unbearable.

[JimBHibees]

Except for Keith Jackson, who broke the Ticketus story last July. Without that, we may have been none the wiser.

I am cynical enough to think that he was fed this information by some of the other Rangers Director/bods who finally realised what Whyte was doing.

[21.05.2016]

"The whole thing is just so sad. I look back and think about all the medals I won at Ibrox.
Leading Gers to Nine in a Row, the League Cups and Scottish Cups"

These will be the "tainted" medals and cups that you won with the dual-contracts and the cheating then Mr Gough?

:rolleyes:


"I had Andy Goram on the phone as soon as I woke up and he couldn’t get his head round it. Like me, he wanted answers"

No. Like you, he's just a bit bigoted (as well as being thick as ****) and seem to think that everyone "owes" Rangers something!

Exactly. Sick of them coming out and giving all this "poor rangers" garbage and make out this is some big injustice being done to them. Rangers Football Club has been corrupt for years and they only have themselves to blame for it. They are finally starting to get what they deserve.

Rangers try to make out that they ARE the SPL and without them everybody else cannot survive without them.

[Spike Mandela]

Except for Keith Jackson, who broke the Ticketus story last July. Without that, we may have been none the wiser.

I know hindsight is a great thing but the delusion and denial in this thread regarding the story is hilarious...........


http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=191199&st=0

[ScottB]

Except for Keith Jackson, who broke the Ticketus story last July. Without that, we may have been none the wiser.

The Record and co sat on this story till the writing was on the wall, the Rangerstaxcase blog had been talking about the mess at Ibrox for at least a year prior to the brown stuff hitting the fan.

The apologist tabloids refused to break the story until the club was dragged into the courts and they had no choice.

[Stevie Reid]

I know hindsight is a great thing but the delusion and denial in this thread regarding the story is hilarious...........


http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=191199&st=0

Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:05 PM
Rangers will be in business forever, will the Fenian Record?

:faf:

[Just Alf]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/spurned-bidder-poised-to-revive-rangers-bid.17860526

you cant make this up!

1) at least 1 new bidder is in putting in a higher bid than Green

2) Green hasn't got the cash together and is struggling to get the rest (NOW we know what the season ticket money is for!)

3) One of Green's backers was wanted by Interpol for "stealling assets from a bank"

4) another backer pulled out last week taking his 4 Mill with him leaving Green with the shortfall


:cb

[calmac12000]

I think it highly likely that we should all prepare ourselves for yet another round of self-pitying articles from Hun sympathisers, proclaiming yet again their innocence and that it "was all the fault of a bad man and definitely not us", you wil note the complete ignorance of reality and utter lack of contrition. Then we'll have the usual Scottish football needs Rangers etc., no doubt with the addition now of you can't do anything once the fixtures are published. Even allowing for the blatant nonsense and fallacy contained in any statement of that ilk, this red=herring can be easily dealt with by the existence of modern technology allowing wholesale changes to be made within a matter of hours, if not minutes. The bottom line for Der Hun is simply to paraphrase one of their songs"no one likes you, no one cares" and more importantly we definitely do not need you, so quite simply GTF!

[RyeSloan]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/spurned-bidder-poised-to-revive-rangers-bid.17860526

you cant make this up!

1) at least 1 new bidder is in putting in a higher bid than Green

2) Green hasn't got the cash together and is struggling to get the rest (NOW we know what the season ticket money is for!)

3) One of Green's backers was wanted by Interpol for "stealling assets from a bank"

4) another backer pulled out last week taking his 4 Mill with him leaving Green with the shortfall


:cb

This is just the start. It's clear to everyone that a 'clean' Rangers (Oxymoron I know!) that retains Ibrox and Murray Park will, in the medium term, be an investment worth considering.

I fully expect a significant amount of interest in securing the assets and goodwill and Green will be left well out of the picture. There is also an intersting prospect of rival newco's being set up, each purporting to be the new Rangers and each attempting to get a hold of the assets...the picture being painted is one of a complete package being sold to a single investor or group but I see nothing stopping one investor gettign a hold of Murray park, another one Ibrox but neither actually having an interest in running a football club, that may be left to a third (or fourth) party to do and provide the rental income for the new owners of the physical assets.

Considering the above scenario it's patently clear the £5.5m figure is bolloc*s and a sale on the open market (sealed bids for the different parts by a set deadline would be very interesting!) would provide signifcantly more to the creditors.

I think Green's moaning yesterday was driven by the realisation his moment had come and gone and the chance to fill his troosers with cash off the back of Rangers was gone.

Lastly I don't see how any of this can be resolved in time for the new season and I think there is a significant chance there will be no Rangers at all in Scottish football next year. Now that would be a real shame.

[calmac12000]

Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:05 PM
Rangers will be in business forever, will the Fenian Record?

:faf:

Just further proof if indeed any were neede as to why the cancer that is Rangers must be excised from our game.:cb

[Kato]

There is also an intersting prospect of rival newco's being set up, each purporting to be the new Rangers and each attempting to get a hold of the assets...the picture being painted is one of a complete package being sold to a single investor or group but I see nothing stopping one investor gettign a hold of Murray park, another one Ibrox but neither actually having an interest in running a football club, that may be left to a third (or fourth) party to do and provide the rental income for the new owners of the physical assets.


http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/fantasia-mickey.jpg

[KWJ]

He definitely would. Considering all that's happened to him since getting his dream job I think he's handled himself extremely well. There's certainly been a couple of wobbles and requirement of a slap but it's understandable. He said weeks ago that he was beginning to think moving to the 3rd would be the best option.

[Gus Fring]

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BBCchrismclaug
BDO: D&P intend to complete transfer of business and assets to new company in the coming days, putting club on more secure footing, once this is done, BDO will determine what can be recovered from the remains of the existing company.
13/06/2012 13:10 (https://twitter.com/bbcchrismclaug/status/212879582733414400)



Thats disgusting, so the newco gets to keep all the "good" bits for themselves and keep it away from the creditors and then sell off the bumf thats left? Surely it should be the other way round?

[BarneyK]

BBCchrismclaug
BDO: D&P intend to complete transfer of business and assets to new company in the coming days, putting club on more secure footing, once this is done, BDO will determine what can be recovered from the remains of the existing company.

I'm pretty sure that is D&P's intentions. I would be disappointed if BDO are happy to go along with it though.

[HibeeMG]

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BBCchrismclaug
BDO: D&P intend to complete transfer of business and assets to new company in the coming days, putting club on more secure footing, once this is done, BDO will determine what can be recovered from the remains of the existing company.
13/06/2012 13:10 (https://twitter.com/bbcchrismclaug/status/212879582733414400)



Thats disgusting, so the newco gets to keep all the "good" bits for themselves and keep it away from the creditors and then sell off the bumf thats left? Surely it should be the other way round?

I've asked him (for the second time) whether BDO are able to, and will they, challenge the sale of assets without a creditor objecting first.

[Posh Swanny]

I know hindsight is a great thing but the delusion and denial in this thread regarding the story is hilarious...........


http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=191199&st=0

I only got to page three but the were already a couple of absolute gems...


we arnt leeds. that mess was a totally different situation to ours we arent going to be spending more money than we should esp with UEFA demanding that clubs that wish to participate in their competitions get their house in order. that is one of the most stupid headlines ive seen from the record.


This is also the same pish stained paper that has Alex Mcleish going to villa, even though Birmingham have rejected his resignation

:LOL::faf:

[BarneyK]

I direct again to the following from the website of the Serious Fraud Office, their definition of asset stripping. Maybe someone can explain how this differs to the Green/D+P proposals? I can only assume that it would be legal if the valuation of £5.5m is seen to be fair and in line with current market value?

What is asset stripping?

Asset stripping is taking company funds or assets of value while leaving behind the debts.

Company directors transfer only the assets of one company to another and not the liabilities. The result is a dormant company with large liabilities that cannot be met and it has to be put into liquidation

Stripping of company assets is normally done for two main reasons:

•The fraudsters deliberately target a company or companies to take ownership, move the assets and then put the stripped entity into liquidation
•"Phoenixing" - directors move assets from one limited company to another to 'secure' the benefits of their business and avoid the liabilities. Most or all the directors will usually be the same in both companies. This usually arises as a way of 'rescuing' the assets of a failing business rather than targeting a company

[Big Frank]

He definitely would. Considering all that's happened to him since getting his dream job I think he's handled himself extremely well. There's certainly been a couple of wobbles and requirement of a slap but it's understandable. He said weeks ago that he was beginning to think moving to the 3rd would be the best option.


Sorry KWJnr. Completely disagree.

The "wobbles" you allude do have been a disgrace imho

[Seveno]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/spurned-bidder-poised-to-revive-rangers-bid.17860526

you cant make this up!

1) at least 1 new bidder is in putting in a higher bid than Green

2) Green hasn't got the cash together and is struggling to get the rest (NOW we know what the season ticket money is for!)

3) One of Green's backers was wanted by Interpol for "stealling assets from a bank"

4) another backer pulled out last week taking his 4 Mill with him leaving Green with the shortfall


:cb

All hilarious but the best bit is the picture. Rangers in the gutter. :na na:

[ancienthibby]

Rangers: Football to continue at Ibrox say liquidators


Rangers' liquidators insist the club will continue to play at Ibrox.
Malcolm Cohen and James Stephen from financial company BDO have been appointed as Joint Liquidators.
A CVA proposal from a consortium led by Charles Green was rejected byHMRC forcing the club into liquidation. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18407309)
"It's important to understand that the appointment of liquidators will not mean the end of football at Ibrox - only the end of the company that ran the club," said Cohen.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18426943#story_continues_2)
“The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors, and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company.”

Rangers' Liquidator Malcolm Cohen

"The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company."
Administrators Duff & Phelps plan to transfer the business to a 'newco' set up by Green in the next few days.
Cohen continued: "Once this is done, BDO will determine what can be recovered from the remains of the existing company.
"It is right that there is a full and robust investigation into why the company failed, together with concerted efforts to recover monies for creditors and the taxpayer.
"This may include pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the financial affairs of the company in previous years."

Is there enough money in the remaining MIM empire to pay Hector in full??:cb

(p.s. taken from BBC Scotland website)

[jonty]

So, as far as I can see
Dundee applied to join the SPL a few weeks ago.

Motherwell and ICT are to poll the fans on their views for which way they should vote.

Clearly the SPL Fans Survey has reinforced their view that the fans have a very important say in all of this.

IMHO they should just save themselves the hassle and vote no.

[Dashing Bob S]

This is just the start. It's clear to everyone that a 'clean' Rangers (Oxymoron I know!) that retains Ibrox and Murray Park will, in the medium term, be an investment worth considering.

I fully expect a significant amount of interest in securing the assets and goodwill and Green will be left well out of the picture. There is also an intersting prospect of rival newco's being set up, each purporting to be the new Rangers and each attempting to get a hold of the assets...the picture being painted is one of a complete package being sold to a single investor or group but I see nothing stopping one investor gettign a hold of Murray park, another one Ibrox but neither actually having an interest in running a football club, that may be left to a third (or fourth) party to do and provide the rental income for the new owners of the physical assets.

Considering the above scenario it's patently clear the £5.5m figure is bolloc*s and a sale on the open market (sealed bids for the different parts by a set deadline would be very interesting!) would provide signifcantly more to the creditors.

I think Green's moaning yesterday was driven by the realisation his moment had come and gone and the chance to fill his troosers with cash off the back of Rangers was gone.

Lastly I don't see how any of this can be resolved in time for the new season and I think there is a significant chance there will be no Rangers at all in Scottish football next year. Now that would be a real shame.

Great post, agree totally. The pro-Rangers media are living in this world where one party buys Rangers total assets, lock, stock and barrel. The newclub play in the SPL with minor penalties and soon all is forgotten. However the HMRC liquidators are unlikely to be as sentimental as the dodgy administrators appointed by Whyte (with the unofficial blessing of Murray?) and will sell off the assets to not the highest bidder, but the highest bidders. It's highly probably that selliing the assets individually would fetch a greater price than disposing of them as a cut-price job lot.

I also agree that its very hard to see this being resolved in time for the august kick-off. I doubt anybody with any sense will want to do much till the 'big case' is resolved and I also think that if prosecutions of well-known football figures are undertaken, then FiFA will be compelled to act, thus throwing another spanner in the works.

So all good.

[green glory]

The thing I'm finding most worrying is that BDO seem content to allow the sale of the club and assets into a Newco BEFORE liquidation. Then they will pursue remaining assets.

Surely this would preserve the history?

[BarneyK]

Rangers: Football to continue at Ibrox say liquidators


Rangers' liquidators insist the club will continue to play at Ibrox.
Malcolm Cohen and James Stephen from financial company BDO have been appointed as Joint Liquidators.
A CVA proposal from a consortium led by Charles Green was rejected byHMRC forcing the club into liquidation. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18407309)
"It's important to understand that the appointment of liquidators will not mean the end of football at Ibrox - only the end of the company that ran the club," said Cohen.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18426943#story_continues_2)
“The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors, and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company.”

Rangers' Liquidator Malcolm Cohen

"The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company."
Administrators Duff & Phelps plan to transfer the business to a 'newco' set up by Green in the next few days.
Cohen continued: "Once this is done, BDO will determine what can be recovered from the remains of the existing company.
"It is right that there is a full and robust investigation into why the company failed, together with concerted efforts to recover monies for creditors and the taxpayer.
"This may include pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the financial affairs of the company in previous years."

Is there enough money in the remaining MIM empire to pay Hector in full??:cb

(p.s. taken from BBC Scotland website)



It seems clear from this that they won't stand in the way of Chuckie's £5.5m asset buyout...unless of course they were to put the assets up for sale only on the proviso that whoever bought them would lease them back to Der Hun?

[down-the-slope]

BDO spokesperson asked outright if they will seek other offers for assets (opposing Green offer in effect)

Answer: No Comment :greengrin

thats good enough for me..they have to let things run as per legal process but I take from that they will be blocking / seeking judicial review of sale to Green as soon as their feet are under the table...

[ancienthibby]

The thing I'm finding most worrying is that BDO seem content to allow the sale of the club and assets into a Newco BEFORE liquidation. Then they will pursue remaining assets.

Surely this would preserve the history?

I think HRH Mr Croppers has already stated that such an event can be challenged in the Courts and potentially set aside.

I would think Hector has given BDO such a mandate.:greengrin

[Seveno]

Rangers: Football to continue at Ibrox say liquidators


Rangers' liquidators insist the club will continue to play at Ibrox.
Malcolm Cohen and James Stephen from financial company BDO have been appointed as Joint Liquidators.
A CVA proposal from a consortium led by Charles Green was rejected byHMRC forcing the club into liquidation. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18407309)
"It's important to understand that the appointment of liquidators will not mean the end of football at Ibrox - only the end of the company that ran the club," said Cohen.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18426943#story_continues_2)
“The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors, and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company.”

Rangers' Liquidator Malcolm Cohen

"The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company."
Administrators Duff & Phelps plan to transfer the business to a 'newco' set up by Green in the next few days.
Cohen continued: "Once this is done, BDO will determine what can be recovered from the remains of the existing company.
"It is right that there is a full and robust investigation into why the company failed, together with concerted efforts to recover monies for creditors and the taxpayer.
"This may include pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the financial affairs of the company in previous years."

Is there enough money in the remaining MIM empire to pay Hector in full??:cb

(p.s. taken from BBC Scotland website)



I wonder if HMRC are fully aware that the Green bid is going to fall apart and are content to stand back for the time being. This would then let the Liquidators move in and realise the fully value of the assets.

As for MIH, the are something like £700m in debt with the only real value being in the assets of their subsidiary, Premier Property Group. A fire sale beckons.

[GreenCastle]

Great post, agree totally. The pro-Rangers media are living in this world where one party buys Rangers total assets, lock, stock and barrel. The newclub play in the SPL with minor penalties and soon all is forgotten. However the HMRC liquidators are unlikely to be as sentimental as the dodgy administrators appointed by Whyte (with the unofficial blessing of Murray?) and will sell off the assets to not the highest bidder, but the highest bidders. It's highly probably that selliing the assets individually would fetch a greater price than disposing of them as a cut-price job lot.

I also agree that its very hard to see this being resolved in time for the august kick-off. I doubt anybody with any sense will want to do much till the 'big case' is resolved and I also think that if prosecutions of well-known football figures are undertaken, then FiFA will be compelled to act, thus throwing another spanner in the works.

So all good.

I agree - can't see it being resolved before the new season - still so much to sort out :agree:

[Seveno]

So, as far as I can see
Dundee applied to join the SPL a few weeks ago.

Motherwell and ICT are to poll the fans on their views for which way they should vote.

Clearly the SPL Fans Survey has reinforced their view that the fans have a very important say in all of this.

IMHO they should just save themselves the hassle and vote no.



The Board at Motherwell Football Club today (Tuesday) released the following statement in light of recent developments in the on-going situation at Rangers FC.
“The Board is very aware of implications of all scenarios and will consider them in detail when all the information we need is at our disposal.
“We will consult our members, shareholders and fans before taking a decision on what our position should be.
“We regard the sustainability of the club and the integrity of the sport as inter-linked. We have a duty to act in the interests of our club and we hope these can be reconciled with the interests of the game.
“It really is more important than ever that all Motherwell fans continue their fantastic support of our club.”

Sounds a bit like they will consult but vote for the money.

[Paisley Hibby]

An easy one to fix. Celtic and Rangers are in the same city, so replace them with Dundee and Dundee United in the fixture list. Then Celtic can take over the original Dundee United fixtures. Sorted!

What about fixture clashes if/when Rangers are in another league? OK, let's not go there...

Ah, but once the novelty has worn off (which will only take a couple of weeks) the bigoted glory hunters will be heading to Tynecastle instead.

[Spike Mandela]

I think it highly likely that we should all prepare ourselves for yet another round of self-pitying articles from Hun sympathisers, proclaiming yet again their innocence and that it "was all the fault of a bad man and definitely not us", you wil note the complete ignorance of reality and utter lack of contrition. Then we'll have the usual Scottish football needs Rangers etc., no doubt with the addition now of you can't do anything once the fixtures are published. Even allowing for the blatant nonsense and fallacy contained in any statement of that ilk, this red=herring can be easily dealt with by the existence of modern technology allowing wholesale changes to be made within a matter of hours, if not minutes. The bottom line for Der Hun is simply to paraphrase one of their songs"no one likes you, no one cares" and more importantly we definitely do not need you, so quite simply GTF!

I now give you the most stomach churningly twisted view of events so far. Rangers have been cheated discuss..........over to you Mr Traynor.............

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/13/james-traynor-spl-will-not-be-able-to-prosper-without-rangers-86908-23895361/

Despite the baying mob and their crazy notion that Rangers should be shunned because they are cheats the fact is this club and these fans have themselves been cheated. If there is anything in their DNA make up that’s irrational or wrong it is their love of their club and this game.

[Paisley Hibby]

The Board at Motherwell Football Club today (Tuesday) released the following statement in light of recent developments in the on-going situation at Rangers FC.
“The Board is very aware of implications of all scenarios and will consider them in detail when all the information we need is at our disposal.
“We will consult our members, shareholders and fans before taking a decision on what our position should be.
“We regard the sustainability of the club and the integrity of the sport as inter-linked. We have a duty to act in the interests of our club and we hope these can be reconciled with the interests of the game.
“It really is more important than ever that all Motherwell fans continue their fantastic support of our club.”

Sounds a bit like they will consult but vote for the money.

The bit in bold should mean they will vote no. However, everything else they say contradicts that and so, sadly, I think you're right.

[Seveno]

Duff & Duffer say that the transfer to Newco will take place in a 'matter of days'. Or a couple of months as we would know it.

There is also still the threat of a suspension under transferembargogate and/or dualcontractsgate.

So........... if there was to be no Rangers for just next year say, every club in the SFL moves up a place and Spartans/ Cove Rangers or Gala Fairydean get into SF3. Next year, Newco Rangers FC come along and say what ? ' gonnae no squeeze up a bit ? '

Could be our chance to get a larger SPL, especially with no 11-1 majority being required.

[Swindonfan]

May have been said but there is a article by the leyton orient chief executive on bbc website i think about how there is no way the other SPL clubs would boot rangers as they would be shooting themselves in the foot due to the loss of revenue from games against them and the loss of the present TV deal.

Personally something that truly disgusted me was the new owner to be talking about the possiblity of re signing Gutuso. Saying that he had situation explained to his agent and was interested in coming back. How can they be looking to spend even 1 penny when they owe millions. How could they look to get a CVA at 9p in the pound while talking about making a signing as soon as they came out of the CVA. Are they offering Gutuso 10K a week but he will only get 9p in the pound ?

I think purely down to SPL rules the scottish FA should relegate them anyway. There shouldnt even be a vote by other SPL clubs. Only reason there looks like thier will be is the rest of the clubs panicking over money from those games against rangers and the tv deal.

I see the other clubs are saying we will consult everyone including our fans. Well lets see if they are honest about that because unless your a rangers fan there is not one other fan in scotland or beyond who thinks they should be in the SPL next year.

[Seveno]

I now give you the most stomach churningly twisted view of events so far. Rangers have been cheated discuss..........over to you Mr Traynor.............

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/13/james-traynor-spl-will-not-be-able-to-prosper-without-rangers-86908-23895361/

Despite the baying mob and their crazy notion that Rangers should be shunned because they are cheats the fact is this club and these fans have themselves been cheated. If there is anything in their DNA make up that’s irrational or wrong it is their love of their club and this game.



Well I have to agree with one thing that he is saying :
" Whether you like them or not they are important. Along with Celtic they are the engine that drives our game. "

And where exactly has our game been driven, James ?

[BarneyK]

May have been said but there is a article by the leyton orient chief executive on bbc website i think about how there is no way the other SPL clubs would boot rangers as they would be shooting themselves in the foot due to the loss of revenue from games against them and the loss of the present TV deal.

Personally something that truly disgusted me was the new owner to be talking about the possiblity of re signing Gutuso. Saying that he had situation explained to his agent and was interested in coming back. How can they be looking to spend even 1 penny when they owe millions. How could they look to get a CVA at 9p in the pound while talking about making a signing as soon as they came out of the CVA. Are they offering Gutuso 10K a week but he will only get 9p in the pound ?

I think purely down to SPL rules the scottish FA should relegate them anyway. There shouldnt even be a vote by other SPL clubs. Only reason there looks like thier will be is the rest of the clubs panicking over money from those games against rangers and the tv deal.

I see the other clubs are saying we will consult everyone including our fans. Well lets see if they are honest about that because unless your a rangers fan there is not one other fan in scotland or beyond who thinks they should be in the SPL next year.

Has hee-haw to do with the Leyton Orient Chief Exec, so baffled as to why he's being asked his opinion on this. That said, his knowledge of it is obviously being garnered from the press reports, so no surprise with his thoughts on the situation.

[Paisley Hibby]

May have been said but there is a article by the leyton orient chief executive on bbc website i think about how there is no way the other SPL clubs would boot rangers as they would be shooting themselves in the foot due to the loss of revenue from games against them and the loss of the present TV deal.

Personally something that truly disgusted me was the new owner to be talking about the possiblity of re signing Gutuso. Saying that he had situation explained to his agent and was interested in coming back. How can they be looking to spend even 1 penny when they owe millions. How could they look to get a CVA at 9p in the pound while talking about making a signing as soon as they came out of the CVA. Are they offering Gutuso 10K a week but he will only get 9p in the pound ?

I think purely down to SPL rules the scottish FA should relegate them anyway. There shouldnt even be a vote by other SPL clubs. Only reason there looks like thier will be is the rest of the clubs panicking over money from those games against rangers and the tv deal.

I see the other clubs are saying we will consult everyone including our fans. Well lets see if they are honest about that because unless your a rangers fan there is not one other fan in scotland or beyond who thinks they should be in the SPL next year.

You're right, there should be no need to consult anyway, it's obvious what the right thing to do is here. Consultation is simply being used as a delaying tactic in the hope that something will turn up to get them off the hook or give them a reason to justify (they will think) their voting yes to NewHunco.

[hibeesdude]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=222559

alternatley you could crawl back to whatever putrid, pus filled, rancid, infested, hate filled swamp that you dragged yourself from and do the decent thing ......DIE QUIETLY

you cheated...you got caught...man up and take it on the chin:rules:

[Just Alf]

Saw it reported last night (chan 5 I think) that Sky will NOT walk away ( :-) ) from the TV deal, a direct quote was "we don't want to go to war with Scotland".

Sorry on my moby so can't find the link

On the money front, I've said it before but if a team votes a newco in.....

Is it really the best idea financially????

On one hand the Hun supporters have already stated they're boycotting all away games so the only difference is you'd also lose a significant part of your home support.

So vote yes = a lose/lose situation
Vote no = a lose/win situation

Something like that anyway!

[Paisley Hibby]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=222559

alternatley you could crawl back to whatever putrid, pus filled, rancid, infested, hate filled swamp that you dragged yourself from and do the decent thing ...... DIE QUIETLY

you cheated...you got caught...man up and take it on the chin:rules:

Thanks for posting - gave me a laugh:greengrin!

[Posh Swanny]

I now give you the most stomach churningly twisted view of events so far. Rangers have been cheated discuss..........over to you Mr Traynor.............

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/13/james-traynor-spl-will-not-be-able-to-prosper-without-rangers-86908-23895361/

Despite the baying mob and their crazy notion that Rangers should be shunned because they are cheats the fact is this club and these fans have themselves been cheated. If there is anything in their DNA make up that’s irrational or wrong it is their love of their club and this game.


he's changed his tune... (http://blogs.dailyrecord.co.uk/jimtraynor/2012/04/rangers-must-start-again-in-di.html)

[IWasThere2016]

he's changed his tune... (http://blogs.dailyrecord.co.uk/jimtraynor/2012/04/rangers-must-start-again-in-di.html)

That's cos he's a havering erse - basically he fulfils the only required criteria to work for the Daily Rag.

[SurferRosa]

I now give you the most stomach churningly twisted view of events so far. Rangers have been cheated discuss..........over to you Mr Traynor.............

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/13/james-traynor-spl-will-not-be-able-to-prosper-without-rangers-86908-23895361/

Despite the baying mob and their crazy notion that Rangers should be shunned because they are cheats the fact is this club and these fans have themselves been cheated. If there is anything in their DNA make up that’s irrational or wrong it is their love of their club and this game.


A desperate rant from a died in the wool Hun....

But some of the replies are priceless..

"
Duncan Young (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/community/profile/?UID=fb_100001041999516_fb&plckUserId=fb_100001041999516_fb) 1:22 PM on 13/6/2012
Are you for real , cut them some slack , millions of lost tax , small buisnesses suffering , players not getting paid , clubs owed money for players , playing players they haven`t bought , not one apology from Ibrox , where is Sir David , did Walter know he couldn`t afford the players he was signing , no sympathy mr Traynor , dry your eyes , wipe the succulent gravy from your chin "

"

Stevenkerry McCann (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/community/profile/?UID=fb_100000994833508_fb&plckUserId=fb_100000994833508_fb) 1:45 PM on 13/6/2012
Traynor ,you can almost taste the bitterness in each line of that one eyed rant

you"re well known to be a"pure rangurs man" and that is self evident in you tainted article.

To say that"It's all madness rooted in jealousies and twisted logic" more or less confirms to us all that you have no understanding of the extent of the damage that your favorite cheating institution has caused.

and ,as far as you are concerned its everyone elses fault and we should all give rangers a collective "kick in the jewels" and that will suffice.

Well pal the extent of the cheating and lying has disgusted the country as a whole,football minded and non football minded alike,and quite frankly getting rid of that rancid institution all together is the first unnecessary step in cleansing the game in Scotland (rubber gloves and detol please)

So do us a favour and go away and sit on the bleachers in numerous wee backwater stadiums in 3rd division and peddle yer backwater pish to whoever will listen

we will find journalists with maybe a slither of integrity to fill that very small ,insignificant void that you will leave "

[Off the bar]

hard to express quite how much i hate Traynor, with all that has gone on how can he support the myth that spl will suffer without rangers? Does he really believe that a newco with a clean slate back into the spl will be accepted and all the rest big tax case, dual contracts etc etc will go away? the man is an arse, this saga will run for years and years and years while liquidators and hmrc go back through RFC recent history with a fine tooth comb and the full extent of the wrong doing is exposed. Letting them back in brings their poison back in and alienates all fans other than new RFC fans.
They must be punted out of football for a year while the dust settles and the true extent of their cheating emerges, and then asuming it gets no worse and no further skeletons emerge, let them apply the sfl to play in div 3.

[ancienthibby]

The bit in bold should mean they will vote no. However, everything else they say contradicts that and so, sadly, I think you're right.

Not sure about that, if their last sentence is correct.:greengrin

Does anyone know if clubs can abstain from voting on the Newco question, per SPL rules.

If abstaining is allowed, then clubs like the Mothers, Arabs and the Buddies might well take that option.

In such circumstances, the HunNewCo could well struggle to get 8 positive votes!:agree:

[Leithenhibby]

That's cos he's a havering erse - basically he fulfils the only required criteria to work for the Daily Rag.


Got to say, that pretty much covers it for me also ... :aok:

[Speedway]

10 Rangers threads and 4 Yam threads on the front page of main.

Seriously?

What about getting back to hysterically slating everything related to our own club?

[CropleyWasGod]

HMRC will recover their monies due, with interest, from the individuals involved in the case, including:

David Murray
Craig Whyte

and every single person paid through the EBT. These are individuals with a lot of money. They'll be pursued for non payment of taxes. The only argument will be whether the money paid through the EBT is to be considered a gross or net payment to the individuals involved.

Assuming the 47m is all paid at higher rate, HMRC Is looking at a relatively easy recovery from the individuals of 40% x 47m = approx 19m.

Sorry, they won't. Misapplication of an employer-operated tax scheme is the responsibility of the employer. Only in cases where fraud or collusion can be proven, would they seek to recover lost PAYE etc from an employee.

[Pretty Boy]

What Hibernian topics would you like to discuss?

Rangers are big news at the moment so its fairly obvious why people are talking about them.

The silence from ER at the moment is deafening and just about every other close season topic has been done to death in the last couple of weeks.

[R'Albin]

Here we go again with another non-Hibs related thread :rolleyes:

[Chuck Rhoades]

Attending a meeting with the club tonight - hoping to have minutes posted by 10pm, then you will have something to read.

[iwasthere1972]

Attending a meeting with the club tonight - hoping to have minutes posted by 10pm, then you will have something to read.

Looking forward to reading them. :aok:

[edinburghhibee]

Attending a meeting with the club tonight - hoping to have minutes posted by 10pm, then you will have something to read.

Tell them from me that should Hibs vote Rangers back into the SPL they can have my season ticket back.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Looking forward to reading them. :aok:

Great avatar...

:thumbsup:

[Geo_1875]

Just a couple of points here.

People talk about SKY walking away if they aren't guaranteed 4 OF games each season. Now if either of the OF sides were to have a poor season and finish in the bottom 6 and only 3 OF games were played what would happen. Would the SPL cry the games a bogey and reorganise the SPL to guarantee the required 4 OF games or would SKY tear up the contract and walk away? I don't think that would happen and I hope that the SPL board did not sign up to a contract which tied them to such a guarantee.

And Jim Traynor's a ****.

[Just Alf]

A few Hun mates (I should stop calling 'em that... Hun's not mates!) ...... keep saying we should stop trying to get rules changed to get the kicked or kept out of the SPL...... did some digging in the SPL rule book and lo and behold.......

A2.5.4 Any ground which a Club or the Candidate Club registers or is deemed to have registered as its Registered Ground, must, by not later than 31st March preceding any Season and for the whole of that Season:-
A2.5.4.1 subject to Rule H6.8, have satisfied and satisfy the Stadia Handbook requirements for a Club taking part in the League;
A2.5.4.2 have provided and provide individually numbered seats in areas under cover of a roof for not less than 6,000 spectators; and,
A2.5.4.3 have had and have adequate winter pitch protection, as provided in Rule H6.7,

As it's a NewCo that's that scooshed then!

There's also another rule (Rule D4.6) that essentially means.... if you're owe another team any money for a tranfered player then yer embargoed......oh and when you pay it back add on Base Interest Rate + 5% to the total

that's not even counting all the other stuff going on!

[JeMeSouviens]

Just a couple of points here.

People talk about SKY walking away if they aren't guaranteed 4 OF games each season. Now if either of the OF sides were to have a poor season and finish in the bottom 6 and only 3 OF games were played what would happen. Would the SPL cry the games a bogey and reorganise the SPL to guarantee the required 4 OF games or would SKY tear up the contract and walk away? I don't think that would happen and I hope that the SPL board did not sign up to a contract which tied them to such a guarantee.

And Jim Traynor's a ****.

I read somewhere (unfortunately can't remember where) that the chat about Sky being guaranteed 4 OF games a season is a deliberate misinterpretation of the contract. What it actually says (it was alleged) is that Sky get first dibs, ie. before ESPN, on any OF games in the season.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Record and co sat on this story till the writing was on the wall, the Rangerstaxcase blog had been talking about the mess at Ibrox for at least a year prior to the brown stuff hitting the fan.

The apologist tabloids refused to break the story until the club was dragged into the courts and they had no choice.

Sorry, that's not the case. Keith Jackson was asking the questions in July last year, long before any Court case. That's why he was cold-shouldered at Ibrox.

[JeMeSouviens]

As pointed out on RTC, some subtle misinformation from the Beeb:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18426943



"It's important to understand that the appointment of liquidators will not mean the end of football at Ibrox - only the end of the company that ran the club," said Cohen.

"The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company."

Administrators Duff & Phelps plan to transfer the business to a 'newco' set up by Green in the next few days.

Cohen continued: "Once this is done, BDO will determine what can be recovered from the remains of the existing company."


3 quotes from the liquidator with one non-quote sentence inserted by the author. Take out the non-quote and it reads very differently. :rolleyes:

[EuanH78]

Jim Traynor claims to be an Airdrie fan(ny) right?

Direct quote from David Murray on putting Airdrie into administration over the 30 grand they owed Rangers

"I feel very sorry for Airdrie and their supporters but we're running a business. We have given them repeated warnings and felt they were playing on our good nature."

Airdrie were liquidated on 1st May 2002, in this year Rangers paid an estimated £5.18 Million into their EBT scheme to avoid paying tax.

Wonder what the fat fool says about that?

:lolrangers: :giruy:

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry, that's not the case. Keith Jackson was asking the questions in July last year, long before any Court case. That's why he was cold-shouldered at Ibrox.

Following some eagle eyed work on the RTC blog noticing that the floating charge had been amended to remove a large number of season tickets which kicked off a lot of the detective work. At least Jacko was following up properly for once. :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Following some eagle eyed work on the RTC blog noticing that the floating charge had been amended to remove a large number of season tickets which kicked off a lot of the detective work. At least Jacko was following up properly for once. :wink:

Yeah, credit where it's due. I'm no big fan of his, or the DR, but he did do his job well in this instance.

[WindyMiller]

The agreement 'tween D&P and Greene states that he has to buy the club by the 31st July, if they can play in all domestic competitions.

So he'll be looking for entry into the SPL before he completes.

I don't believe the SPL will hold a vote on a newco if the deal hasn't been finalised and , at least, the main owners of the newco are known.

Thoughts?

[CropleyWasGod]

The agreement 'tween D&P and Greene states that he has to buy the club by the 31st July, if they can play in all domestic competitions.

So he'll be looking for entry into the SPL before he completes.

I don't believe the SPL will hold a vote on a newco if the deal hasn't been finalised and , at least, the main owners of the newco are known.

Thoughts?

Sounds a bit chicken and egg here.

The SPL can't consider the application by a NewCo, until, as you say, the NewCo has actually put the application in. Will they accept an application by a company that doesn't have any assets? I doubt it.

Which means that Green will have to buy (insert whatever... TBC) before he makes his application.

Which further means that, if the NewCo is turned down, he can walk away from the deal.... which he has already completed.:confused:

Screwy.

[Speedway]

What Hibernian topics would you like to discuss?

Rangers are big news at the moment so its fairly obvious why people are talking about them.

The silence from ER at the moment is deafening and just about every other close season topic has been done to death in the last couple of weeks.

- The latest status of Erin Hibs

- Classic strips and where we first saw them

- The achievements and future projects of the Hibs Historical Trust

- How that educational centre thingy is getting along

- The future of Bobby Brown

- The reason behind the departure of High Fiveland

- What other measures we think Brian Texas is going to take in the re-structure.

- The campaigning for the return of board level interviews on Hibs TV

- Stephen Dobbie and Slav Erinnplumn as realistic signing targets

- What Craig Rocastle is up to now.

That's about all I can think of, off the top of my head.

[R'Albin]

That reminds me, where did Thornhill go to after leaving us?

[RyeSloan]

Sounds a bit chicken and egg here.

The SPL can't consider the application by a NewCo, until, as you say, the NewCo has actually put the application in. Will they accept an application by a company that doesn't have any assets? I doubt it.

Which means that Green will have to buy (insert whatever... TBC) before he makes his application.

Which further means that, if the NewCo is turned down, he can walk away from the deal.... which he has already completed.:confused:

Screwy.


If Green gets all of Rangers (players+assets) for £5.5m then gets an SPL licence then he will have pulled off deal of the century...

[iwasthere1972]

That reminds me, where did Thornhill go to after leaving us?

Barcelona.











































for a holiday.

[lapsedhibee]

Not sure about that, if their last sentence is correct.:greengrin

Does anyone know if clubs can abstain from voting on the Newco question, per SPL rules.

If abstaining is allowed, then clubs like the Mothers, Arabs and the Buddies might well take that option.

In such circumstances, the HunNewCo could well struggle to get 8 positive votes!:agree:

Can't see any point in abstaining unless it was just a simple majority that was required to pass the HunsBackIn? motion. In this particular vote, anything other than a Yes is equivalent to a No. McCoist would want to know the names, addresses, and coffin sizes of everyone who didn't vote Yes, not just those who voted No. :agree:

[WindyMiller]

Sounds a bit chicken and egg here.

The SPL can't consider the application by a NewCo, until, as you say, the NewCo has actually put the application in. Will they accept an application by a company that doesn't have any assets? I doubt it.

Which means that Green will have to buy (insert whatever... TBC) before he makes his application.

Which further means that, if the NewCo is turned down, he can walk away from the deal.... which he has already completed.:confused:

Screwy.


IMO D&P are talking p15h when they say that it will be completed this week, as Greene's investors won't want to put money in to a club that might not make the SPL next season.
The lack of Euro football would put any really big investor off, but the lack of SPL football would scare most away.

[CropleyWasGod]

IMO D&P are talking p15h when they say that it will be completed this week, as Greene's investors won't want to put money in to a club that might not make the SPL next season.
The lack of Euro football would put any really big investor off, but the lack of SPL football would scare most away.

On reflection, I think CG might have backed himself into a corner.

I think he assumed that the question of the SPL membership would have been settled by now. Had it been against RFC, he then would have had the option to pull out of the "irrevocable" :rolleyes: deal.

[ancienthibby]

Can't see any point in abstaining unless it was just a simple majority that was required to pass the HunsBackIn? motion. o. :agree:
In this particular vote, anything other than a Yes is equivalent to a No. McCoist would want to know the names, addresses, and coffin sizes of everyone who didn't vote Yes, not just those who voted N

Precisely? Though, in your projected circumstances, the WeeSwallyCoistyMan would already be history!:greengrin

[SteveHFC]

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=68268

[The Green Goblin]

Then we have the Green Goblin pontificating as if he now has a done deal on the first favoured position ahead of liquidation.:rolleyes:

cb


Whit??! Haha

[Www1875hfc]

McCoist set to quit according to Chris McLaughlin, just on Bbc radio scotland?

[whiskyhibby]

McCoist set to quit according to Chris McLaughlin, just on Bbc radio scotland?

I Don't think he's got the cahjones for that.......

[Www1875hfc]

I Don't think he's got the cahjones for that.......

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/14/rangers-in-crisis-ally-mccoist-set-to-quit-as-ibrox-boss-over-charles-green-plot-to-replace-him-86908-23895646/

[Just Alf]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/14/rangers-in-crisis-ally-mccoist-set-to-quit-as-ibrox-boss-over-charles-green-plot-to-replace-him-86908-23895646/

Oh dear...........


Ha ha ha!

[theonlywayisup]

Non Story!!!

More anti Rangers nonsense in the media yet again.

When you get rid of all the headlines and look at the reality at Rangers then things arent so bad.

Debt gone, History in tact, Stadia and Murray Park to remain with the newco., Guaranteed to be playing in the spl next season..

Whats all the fuss about?

And I believe in the tooth fairy!!!!!!

[Lucius Apuleius]

And I believe in the tooth fairy!!!!!!

Apart from anything else, the mutant appears to have problems with the English language.

[Spike Mandela]

Originally Posted by Hun on Daily Record comments page
Non Story!!!



Debt gone, History in tact, Stadia and Murray Park to remain with the newco., Guaranteed to be playing in the spl next season..

Whats all the fuss about?



Unfortunately the fact does appear that whoever takes over the asset stripped organs of the liquidated carcass has actully got themselves a bargain.

If the football authorities back away from doing the right thing then they have in fact got the bargain of the century.

[VickMackie]

If they remain in the SPL the guy will have bought a company with a turnover of between 30-50 million for 5.5.

Easy option to reduce costs in wages and still finish second each year.

If I had 5 million I'd buy them myself.

He can probably sell them for double that, or more, next year.

[GordonHFC]

If they remain in the SPL the guy will have bought a company with a turnover of between 30-50 million for 5.5.

Easy option to reduce costs in wages and still finish second each year.

If I had 5 million I'd buy them myself.

He can probably sell them for double that, or more, next year.

With no debt attached he could put it up for sale for ten times that amount the day after he bought them.

[green glory]

Rangers die today. How sweet does that sound?

[lapsedhibee]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/14/rangers-in-crisis-ally-mccoist-set-to-quit-as-ibrox-boss-over-charles-green-plot-to-replace-him-86908-23895646/

"Honesty, dignity and courage have always been the driving forces in McCoist’s make-up"

Aye, so they have, except perhaps when he was a footballer - when sneaking up behind people, hitting them and running away before they could see who did it was the order of the day.

[Spike Mandela]

Rangers die today. How sweet does that sound?

The phoenix club rises tomorrow debt free, at Ibrox, training at Murray park and singing their horrible songs. This is a massive VICTORY for Rangers. Expect the chinking sound of champagne glasses in oak panelled boardrooms.

[lapsedhibee]

Rangers die today. How sweet does that sound?

Unfortunately it's more likely that they will start to be reborn today, which doesn't sound quite so good. :boo hoo:

As Alex Thomson :not worth has been blogging and tweeting, HMRC, SPL, SFA, etc, will not easily kill the culture. That'll be back.

[Andy74]

If they remain in the SPL the guy will have bought a company with a turnover of between 30-50 million for 5.5.

Easy option to reduce costs in wages and still finish second each year.

If I had 5 million I'd buy them myself.

He can probably sell them for double that, or more, next year.

Although he may end up with just some property if the SFA revoke their licence, the SPL vote against their membership and the players all walk as fee agents.

I'm sure that is still woth more than £5.5 million though. That figure for everything and the rush to do it before a real liquidation still puzzles me as to why creditors would not object??

[down-the-slope]

McCoist doing Walking Away....will the Gers fans take that well :greengrin

[Spike Mandela]

Looks like us and the Dons are the vanguard for sporting integrity......

http://local.stv.tv/aberdeen/news/sport/106168-dons-say-integrity-of-sport-will-be-central-to-decision-on-gers-newco/


Forget the financial 'argument' sometimes you just have to do the right thing and take the hit.

[HFC 0-7]

Although he may end up with just some property if the SFA revoke their licence, the SPL vote against their membership and the players all walk as fee agents.

I'm sure that is still woth more than £5.5 million though. That figure for everything and the rush to do it before a real liquidation still puzzles me as to why creditors would not object??

Speaking to a mate todays who seems to be in the know with liquidation etc, he seems to think that creditors cant really kick up a fuss about Greene getting assetts until the vote has taken place today. It might not even have to be HMRC that complains to the courts to get the sale to Greene stopped, it could be ticketus or even the rest of the creditors all fighting as one. You may see all the smaller creditors get together to fight the sale, as they will now get nothing.

[Kojock]

Dont know if this has been answered but here goes.

What happens to the resultant punishments to be dished out to Old Hun FC ie EBT, transfer embargo and Sectarian singing. Do these punishments die with Old Hun or are they transferable to New Hun.:confused:

[Ozyhibby]

Dont know if this has been answered but here goes.

What happens to the resultant punishments to be dished out to Old Hun FC ie EBT, transfer embargo and Sectarian singing. Do these punishments die with Old Hun or are they transferable to New Hun.:confused:

Very much transferrable if they want to continue playing football at all.

[Paisley Hibby]

Dont know if this has been answered but here goes.

What happens to the resultant punishments to be dished out to Old Hun FC ie EBT, transfer embargo and Sectarian singing. Do these punishments die with Old Hun or are they transferable to New Hun.:confused:

I think you need to distinguish between legal stuff and football stuff. Legally, I don't see how Newco Hun can be held responsible for what Oldco Hun did. The law will go after the dodgy geezers associated with the Oldco.

When it comes to football, it depends. Here's my take on it. If the SPL decides to let the Newco take Oldco's place then it will not be punishments as such but rather conditions on transfer. These conditions might look very like the punishments the Oldco would have got but it will be a case of 'take it or leave it' if they want the SPL place. If the Newco also gets to keep the history with this then it will be possible for the SPL to subsequently strip them of all titles won during the alleged double contract period (and that would be quite sweet!)

If SPL says no to Newco then the New Huns would need to apply for the vacancy created at the bottom of the SFL. That would not be a punishment, it would simply be the consequence of SPL exercising its right not to let the new Huns take the vacant place caused by Oldco's liquidation. In that scenario I think there could be no punishments and no history. Technically, they would be a completely different club.

[s.a.m]

STV News‏@STVNewsMeeting to confirm rejection of CVA and liquidation of Rangers FC PLC took just nine minutes.(via @mikefstv (http://www.hibs.net/#!/mikefstv) at Ibrox)

David Cowan‏@stvdavidc#Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23Rangers) cva meeting took 9 mins. Told assets go to newco by tomorrow at latest. Admin could take many more weeks before liquidation begins

[HibeeMG]

Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug (https://twitter.com/#!/BBCchrismclaug)
One #Rangers (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23Rangers) debenture holder said to me as he emerged 'the club is gone.'

[Matty_Jack04]

Ally McCoist on the brink?

If admin could take many more weeks before liquidation starts does this mean rangers start the season in the SPL...still in admin...possibly no players to fulfill fixtures with a 30 point penalty?

[haagsehibby]

STV News‏@STVNewsMeeting to confirm rejection of CVA and liquidation of Rangers FC PLC took just nine minutes.(via @mikefstv (http://www.hibs.net/#!/mikefstv) at Ibrox)

David Cowan‏@stvdavidc#Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23Rangers) cva meeting took 9 mins. Told assets go to newco by tomorrow at latest. Admin could take many more weeks before liquidation begins

Gone in 540 seconds :-))

[Andy74]

Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug (https://twitter.com/#!/BBCchrismclaug)
One #Rangers (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23Rangers) debenture holder said to me as he emerged 'the club is gone.'


If only. Who would tell the difference in the club they are about to have debt free and assets intact in the next 24 hours?

Hopefully the players walk and things won't quite be the same.

[joe breezy]

If only. Who would tell the difference in the club they are about to have debt free and assets intact in the next 24 hours?

Hopefully the players walk and things won't quite be the same.

I do wonder about some people, are you actually following this. Things certainly won't 'quite be the same' for a very long time...

[Stevie Reid]

Looks like us and the Dons are the vanguard for sporting integrity......

http://local.stv.tv/aberdeen/news/sport/106168-dons-say-integrity-of-sport-will-be-central-to-decision-on-gers-newco/


Forget the financial 'argument' sometimes you just have to do the right thing and take the hit.

In addition to all the ridiculous amounts of cheating that has been going on, the SPL club chairmen would do well to remember two things: -

1. Rangers and Celtic wouldn't have given a **** about the rest of the SPL had they gotten their move to England

2. Rangers fans are insisting that they will boycott many of the away fixtures next season.

[Spike Mandela]

Reports saying club will be in administration for further 6-10 weeks prior to liquidation. Surely this means Rangers still can't sign anyone under SPL rules.

[col02]

I would have had a minute amount of sympathy for Rangers and their support had they shown any remorse or humility but given their collective stance I only want the right and proper thing done in their newco starting in the 3rd division. They can blame others all they want but in reality the blame lies within Ibrox and Murray park.

[lapsedhibee]

Reports saying club will be in administration for further 6-10 weeks prior to liquidation. Surely this means Rangers still can't sign anyone under SPL rules.

If they're still in administration when the season starts, doesn't this mean that they are in the SPL? :dunno: :boo hoo:

[YehButNoBut]

New name for the Huns is

The Rangers Football Club

According to Sky

[Andy74]

If they're still in administration when the season starts, doesn't this mean that they are in the SPL? :dunno: :boo hoo:

Yes and no. The SPL membership will sit with the oldco.

However, the newco will be set up in the meantime and assets transferred to enable them to be a football club.

The SPL, including oldco, will then vote on whether the transfer of the membership from oldco to newco will be accepted.

[Spike Mandela]

Sky sources saying now McCoist will NOT walk away. Has Ally had a wee tantrum, stamped his feet and got his way again?:rolleyes: What a weasly little man this guy is:cb

[s.a.m]

If they're still in administration when the season starts, doesn't this mean that they are in the SPL? :dunno: :boo hoo:


Not sure, but presumably there will be an ongoing signing embargo (IIRC for being in admin.)and a points penalty. Plus a possible, pending, expulsion when liquidation does kick in, depending on the SPL vote, which SHOULD have happened by then.

[Andy74]

I do wonder about some people, are you actually following this. Things certainly won't 'quite be the same' for a very long time...

If a newco is set up and all the assets transferred then what's the difference?

Forgetting for a moment potential charges still under investigation that may lead to football penalties.

As fas I can see only the potential for players to walk and the potential for the SPL to vote them out would change that.

Was there any need for the tone of your response by the way on a subject where it's actually quite difficult to see from day to day what the real picture is?

[Kato]

I would have had a minute amount of sympathy for Rangers and their support had they shown any remorse or humility but given their collective stance I only want the right and proper thing done in their newco starting in the 3rd division. They can blame others all they want but in reality the blame lies within Ibrox and Murray park.

I think there are plenty Rangers fans who want nothing more than to put this behind them, take any punishment due and start building their club from scratch again. They just aren't being given a voice in the press who are more interested in plying the "don't they know who we are?" line from Huns (huns as opposed to Rangers fans).

[Paisley Hibby]

Sky sources saying now McCoist will NOT walk away. Has Ally had a wee tantrum, stamped his feet and got his way again?:rolleyes: What a weasly little man this guy is:cb

I don't have much time for McCoist but to be fair, we don't know what (if anything) has happened here.

[Paisley Hibby]

If a newco is set up and all the assets transferred then what's the difference?

Forgetting for a moment potential charges still under investigation that may lead to football penalties.

As fas I can see only the potential for players to walk and the potential for the SPL to vote them out would change that.

Was there any need for the tone of your response by the way on a subject where it's actually quite difficult to see from day to day what the real picture is?

I'd just like to agree with all that you say here Andy74.:agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Not sure, but presumably there will be an ongoing signing embargo (IIRC for being in admin.)and a points penalty. Plus a possible, pending, expulsion when liquidation does kick in, depending on the SPL vote, which SHOULD have happened by then.

I don't see them being kicked out during the season - that would cause genuine disruption. I think if they manage to play even one league fixture after their pre-season tour, they've cracked it.

[greenginger]

Was there any announcement of the voting for/against the CVA ?

How Ticketus or any other major creditors voted, and was the whole exercise a waste of time as well as a good fee earner for the Duffs.

[HibeeMG]

Yes and no. The SPL membership will sit with the oldco.

However, the newco will be set up in the meantime and assets transferred to enable them to be a football club.

The SPL, including oldco, will then vote on whether the transfer of the membership from oldco to newco will be accepted.



This, folks, is where we stand at the moment.

I take it the NewCo (THE Rangers FC) will be able to buy players as they are not under the same administration transfer embargo as the OldCo.

[Baldy]

surely now they must liquidate the club and sell it assets, not just agree to sell it to Charles Green for £5.5m

the ground is worth more than that, the car park across the road was valued in excess of £3m so surely the creditors have the right to say no to the club being sold for that .. sell the lot on the open market and allow the creditors to get some money, as it stands they won't get a bean ,... yet Rangers carry on with no debt and the word "THE" added to their name.


The whole thing stinks of a complete "looking after the boys", where else could you buy a ground, players, training complex, and huge amounts of surrounding land in a large city for £5.5m.

Duff and Phelps surely can not make arrangements to sell any of the assets when there will be liquidators who will be appointed????

[Off the bar]

This, folks, is where we stand at the moment.

I take it the NewCo (THE Rangers FC) will be able to buy players as they are not under the same administration transfer embargo as the OldCo.


surely newco can't sign anyone until they have sfa membership? you need the sfa to approve player registration etc

until they have sfa membership newco = new company, not new club

[s.a.m]

I don't see them being kicked out during the season - that would cause genuine disruption. I think if they manage to play even one league fixture after their pre-season tour, they've cracked it.

:agree: I suppose what I'm trying to say is that, even if they are still in administration at that point and eligible for the SPL, if the Newco-in-the-SPL project has been kicked into the long grass by the the other Clubs, their place in the SPL is untenable and entirely pointless. The sensible thing to happen, in that case, would be to refuse them entry, on account of their short-term future in the league. Whether or not that would happen though......

[HibeeMG]

surely newco can't sign anyone until they have sfa membership? you need the sfa to approve player registration etc

until they have sfa membership newco = new company, not new club

Very true. :aok:

So it all depends, as Andy says, on the SPL vote on the NewCo.

Now, another question. When the fixtures come out Rangers OldCo will be included and will be subject to a 30pt penalty. The NewCo will be applying to replace them.

Will the NewCo take over the -30 points if they're allowed in?

[Andy74]

:agree: I suppose what I'm trying to say is that, even if they are still in administration at that point and eligible for the SPL, if the Newco-in-the-SPL project has been kicked into the long grass by the the other Clubs, their place in the SPL is untenable and entirely pointless. The sensible thing to happen, in that case, would be to refuse them entry, on account of their short-term future in the league. Whether or not that would happen though......

They wouldn't have a ground or any players registered, those will be sitting with the newco, should the players accept of course, if not they will have been deemed to have resigned so won't be with oldco.

[s.a.m]

Douglas Fraser‏@BBCDouglsFraserIn #Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23Rangers) creditor meeting, Ticketus - which, like HMRC, had a blocking vote - backed the CVA. Now going after Craig Whyte for £27.5m

[Just Alf]

I think there are plenty Rangers fans who want nothing more than to put this behind them, take any punishment due and start building their club from scratch again. They just aren't being given a voice in the press who are more interested in plying the "don't they know who we are?" line from Huns (huns as opposed to Rangers fans).

Most sensible thing I've seen written re the Huns/Fans for a while :top marks .... and yes, for the record I'm sorry for the real fans.


This, folks, is where we stand at the moment.

I take it the NewCo (THE Rangers FC) will be able to buy players as they are not under the same administration transfer embargo as the OldCo.

Good point.... although it's a dangerous path.... techinically they could buy a player but they wouldn't be part of the SFA/SPL yet so the player wouldn't be licensed to play ANYWHERE. The thing is, there's 2 transfer embargo's running at the moment.... 1 for being in Admin and another for owing money to other clubs in Scotland.

I guess signing a player via the back door then trying to get him added into the "club" when it moves over would be seen as a complete no no. beaten to it.... I need to be less long winded! :wink:


on another note about when the vote takes place...... it's 14 days after the SPL receive a Newco application.... so needs to be in at least 2 weeks prior to the start of the season and if it's left that late there's no wriggle room if they're rejected.

[sadtom]

New name for the Huns is

The Rangers Football Club

According to Sky

I was told it would be Independant Rangers Athletic.
Of course thats just a provisional name. ;-)

[JeMeSouviens]

If only. Who would tell the difference in the club they are about to have debt free and assets intact in the next 24 hours?

Hopefully the players walk and things won't quite be the same.

If/when the players walk, the SPL votes no, Lord Carloway gets another bite at the cherry, things won't be looking quite so rosy. Every dawn for the Huns over the last year and a half has been a false one so far. :wink:

[Spike Mandela]

This, folks, is where we stand at the moment.

I take it the NewCo (THE Rangers FC) will be able to buy players as they are not under the same administration transfer embargo as the OldCo.

This is where it gets grey for me. The newco will exist as an entity from tomorrow but the oldco won't technically be liquidated for anothe 6-10 weeks. They are either the oldco or the newco surely they can't be both.:confused:

[Spike Mandela]

on another note about when the vote takes place...... it's 14 days after the SPL receive a Newco application.... so needs to be in at least 2 weeks prior to the start of the season and if it's left that late there's no wriggle room if they're rejected.

Should the vote be no it doesn't give Dundee any time to consider their budget for a season in the SPL either does it.

[greenlex]

Sky sources saying now McCoist will NOT walk away. Has Ally had a wee tantrum, stamped his feet and got his way again?:rolleyes: What a weasly little man this guy is:cb

More likely Greene is ready to walk.

[Kojock]

In addition to all the ridiculous amounts of cheating that has been going on, the SPL club chairmen would do well to remember two things: -

1. Rangers and Celtic wouldn't have given a **** about the rest of the SPL had they gotten their move to England

2. Rangers fans are insisting that they will boycott many of the away fixtures next season.

I know this has been posted before but just a wee reminder what the Huns were planning less than hree short years ago.

From Walter Smith in 2009


Unlike many senior figures in the Scottish game, Smith has no fears for the wellbeing of the clubs Celtic and Rangers would leave behind in the SPL if they did move on to help form a new league.

In fact, he is adamant that other clubs having an increased chance of winning the national title for the first time since Aberdeen back in 1985 would result in vastly increased gates and general renewed interest.

He also stressed that entry to the new competition would be open to the winners of the SPL, not just the Old Firm clubs, and would be an enormous added incentive for them to succeed.

“The team which wins the league should have the opportunity to get into that league playing off against the teams which are already in it,” he explained. “If, for example, Aberdeen win the title, and can meet the criteria for a European league, then they should play-off for the chance to be a part of it. There would be benefits for the whole of Scottish football.”

Nor does Smith envisage Rangers or Celtic abandoning Scottish football altogether. He reckons reserve or even youth teams representing the Ibrox and Parkhead clubs could still compete in the Scottish domestic leagues.

“Rangers and Celtic would still field teams in Scotland even if they left to join a European league. They might have to start at the bottom division and work their way up again. But they will always have a presence in Scottish football.”


So Walter you have your wish. The league will get stronger without the Huns who will start in the 3rd division

[Bighoose]

Even if they do get back into the SPL, they going to have no players, reduced income, SPL/SFA sanctions and a crook of an owner who will hoovering any cash out of them as soon as it appears.

I'll give them a season before they're back in Admin again, this time with all assets stripped and heading directly down the pan.

Starting in Div3 is probably their only chance of survival.

[JeMeSouviens]

I know this has been posted before but just a wee reminder what the Huns were planning less than hree short years ago.

From Walter Smith in 2009



So Walter you have your wish. The league will get stronger without the Huns who will start in the 3rd division

... with a youth team. Exactly as he foresaw!

[Spike Mandela]

Even if they do get back into the SPL, they going to have no players, reduced income, SPL/SFA sanctions and a crook of an owner who will hoovering any cash out of them as soon as it appears.

I'll give them a season before they're back in Admin again, this time with all assets stripped and heading directly down the pan.

Starting in Div3 is probably their only chance of survival.

None of the sanctions you mention are certain. If I was a creditor I would be demaning that liquidators claim a higher price for a debt free Rangers and that they question Duff and Phelps deal with Green. There are buyers who will pay a lot more for £125m worth of assets now that the debt burden is removed.

[Springbank]

Visionary stuff from Walter . Or perhaps he had the inside track...

[Andy74]

None of the sanctions you mention are certain. If I was a creditor I would be demaning that liquidators claim a higher price for a debt free Rangers and that they question Duff and Phelps deal with Green. There are buyers who will pay a lot more for £125m worth of assets now that the debt burden is removed.

Strangely though, none of the crditors seem too bothered at thsi stage? HMRC certainly spoke of allowing Rangers the new srat under the terms of the agreed asset sale.

Still doesn't make any sense to me that this has been allowed at such a discount.

[Just Alf]

Should the vote be no it doesn't give Dundee any time to consider their budget for a season in the SPL either does it.

:top marks

total can of worms at every turn....

[HibbyRod]

Now that we have a club Liquidated, can we expect an announcement today from Mr Doncaster and his cronies at the SPL, and/or, the SFA?

[CropleyWasGod]

Now that we have a club Liquidated, can we expect an announcement today from Mr Doncaster and his cronies at the SPL, and/or, the SFA?

On what?

There is no club liquidated yet, and it won't be for quite some weeks.

[JeMeSouviens]

On what?

There is no club liquidated yet, and it won't be for quite some weeks.

I expect the asset purchase and attempted transfer of SFA membership/SPL share to happen before that though. **** or get off the pot time for the bold Mr Green.

[Kaiser1962]

Strangely though, none of the crditors seem too bothered at thsi stage? HMRC certainly spoke of allowing Rangers the new srat under the terms of the agreed asset sale.

Still doesn't make any sense to me that this has been allowed at such a discount.

When you are a creditor you reach a point where it dosent really matter and, in the overall process, you become insignificant.

I think most of them will have spent enough time chasing this and are prepared to leave it to the revenue to sort out.

[Gatecrasher]

On what?

There is no club liquidated yet, and it won't be for quite some weeks.
to be fair Doncaster and the rest have no kept their mouths shut all the way through this now all of a sudden theres nothing :confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

When you are a creditor you reach a point where it dosent really matter and, in the overall process, you become insignificant.

I think most of them will have spent enough time chasing this and are prepared to leave it to the revenue to sort out.

Very true.

In my experience, a lot of creditors won't have even bothered replying to the CVA document. In thir minds, the debt is gone, and anything they get from now on will be a bonus.

[CropleyWasGod]

to be fair Doncaster and the rest have no kept their mouths shut all the way through this now all of a sudden theres nothing :confused:

I don't know that there is much they can say. From an SPL or SFA view, little has changed. The standard response from them will be "we will consider any application on its merits... etc etc"

[Just Alf]

Green is being EXTREMLEY economical with the truth if you ask me.....

He told members of the Rangers Fans Fighting Fund that he had deposited £7.5m with the administrators. Yet in the statement he released on Tuesday, Paul Clark of Duff & Phelps admitted Green was still short with some of his funding. Early in the process, Green claimed Rangers would be debt free, while knowing that the terms of his purchase would be that the £8.5m price for a successful CVA would be a loan at 8% interest. He claimed this was to protect the 26,000 minority shareholders, but could instead have obtained a waiver from having to offer to buy them out, as Craig Whyte did when he bought Sir David Murray's 85% shareholding. Even without doing that, Green could have set the interest at a token 1%.

from the Herald.... http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/the-prospective-owners-streetfighter-who-is-scrapping-his-way-over-the-line.17871992

:lolrangers:

[Liberal Hibby]

On what?

There is no club liquidated yet, and it won't be for quite some weeks.

So the likelihood is that Oldco Rangers will enter the new season in administration?

[hibbyfrankie]

If Newco does get voted to play in SPL would dundee not have grounds for complaint?

My reasoning is that if RFC are liquidated and it looks like this is going to happen then surely there is now a vacant spot in the SPL. By rights this spot should be available to dundee.

If a Newco then buy the Rangers assets they have no more right to a position in the league than any highland or junior club who might want to joint the SFL. Or indeed if had the money to buy a stadium or build one i could now apply to join the league on the same footing as this newco company.

Technically Newco have no fan base, no history and no inherrant right to play in the SFL never mind given straight access to the SPL.

In my opinion the only way for any new club to play in the SPL is via promotion and every team in any division should be able to complain about this as they all have more right to be there than a Newco.

Im really hoping that there is a no vote as i have already promised my grandson a season ticket. It will break his heart but i will not be able to go back if this mockery of our league system is allowed to go through.

[Brando7]

STV tonight 10.30 The rangers Downfall

A must watch

[Spike Mandela]

STV tonight 10.30 The rangers Downfall

A must watch

No offence Brando but I very much doubt it. More likely to be a very soft sympathetic look at the 'poor suffering Rangers fans' .

[Newry Hibs]

Should the vote be no it doesn't give Dundee any time to consider their budget for a season in the SPL either does it.

What about having the fixtures as they are - with RFC included and an assumption they will carry on. TRFC get a no vote or kicked out for double contracts or whatever, leaving an 11 team league. No relegation this seaon (not ideal) and 2 come up from SFL1. No room for a new club in SFL3, but then that's TRFCs problem.

(Not going to happen unfortunately).

[1two]

Please please please on the firs home game of next season no matter the opponent can we have a mass
HAHA HAHA sing along to hullo hullo

[frazeHFC]

Are they dead yet?

[WindyMiller]

As I see it;

D&P are their usual bullish selve,s claiming the deal will go ahead in a couple of days. I'd be very surprised if that happens, we've yet to see the colour of Green's money.

The Newco will apply to join the SPL. That will take 2 weeks for the meeting to be arranged.

The Oldco will be needed for the Newco to get the 8 votes required for SPL membership. I don't see this as being as straight forward as the weegdia are making out, I'm sure some of the Chairmen will see this differently.

Transfer embargoes are/will be still in place. Green's investors won't like this, nor the fact that players are able to leave if they wish.

There is still the little matter of the 3 year (mimimum) Euro ban and the double contract investigations. Green's investors won't like this.

Getting accepted into the SPL won't be easy. As I said yesterday, the Chairmen can't/won't accept a Newco application without the deal having been completed and the main investors known and Green will have difficulty finding investors with so many question marks hanging over the Huns.


Be patient brothers! This still has a long way to run, and the good guys will win in the end!

:hnet:

:cb

[ScottB]

Beeb article on who may vote for what > http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18422397

The important bit:


Hibernian: Rod Petrie is the SPL chairman who has made the strongest comments against a 'newco' Rangers being granted admission, saying: "Integrity is beyond purchase. It's not a question of any sum of money in return for that integrity.
"It's important to us that the integrity of the competition that we take part is maintained to the highest standards."
"It's important that all clubs can have a place within football provided they have have earned it in a sporting sense and have abided by the rules," added Petrie.

[Gus Fring]

So if the Oldco still exists when the season starts, what happens next? Can the registration be taken from the oldco and given to the newco and a vote taken on where they start? What happens with the punishments? Will the oldco just be left to die and all focus will be on the newco?

[Andy74]

If Newco does get voted to play in SPL would dundee not have grounds for complaint?

My reasoning is that if RFC are liquidated and it looks like this is going to happen then surely there is now a vacant spot in the SPL. By rights this spot should be available to dundee.

If a Newco then buy the Rangers assets they have no more right to a position in the league than any highland or junior club who might want to joint the SFL. Or indeed if had the money to buy a stadium or build one i could now apply to join the league on the same footing as this newco company.

Technically Newco have no fan base, no history and no inherrant right to play in the SFL never mind given straight access to the SPL.

In my opinion the only way for any new club to play in the SPL is via promotion and every team in any division should be able to complain about this as they all have more right to be there than a Newco.

Im really hoping that there is a no vote as i have already promised my grandson a season ticket. It will break his heart but i will not be able to go back if this mockery of our league system is allowed to go through.

Well no, transfers of the share are allowed as it's a membership based league.

Dundee only have a right when invited to join.

The oldco will still be around and would make the proposal to transfer their share to newco before any liquidation takes place.

If a liquidation took place and there was no newco there then Dundee would get their inviatation. If the SPL vote no to the transfer then Dundee will get the invitation.

[RyeSloan]

What a fricking mess...all caused by Rangers.

If the SFA/SPL had any baws at all they would say that it is clear at this point there is far too many uncertainties to even contemplate scheduling Rangers being active in the top flight next season..they are after all now certain to be liquidated (why it's going to take another 6 weeks I have no idea) so are certain not to be able to fulfil their fixtures next year.

The absolutely clear and unambiguous decision to take to protect the inegrity of the SPL next year is to promote Dundee now.

Rangers will then have to re-form and re-apply to the SFL as per the SFL's schedule and rules. These are pretty clear as they have do this quite frequently. Of course other teams could also apply and be considered on merit.


None of the above is 'unfair' on Rangers and all of the above could be clarified within a few days. The future of Scotland’s top flight of football would be clarified and Rangers would have a clear route to follow (follow).


The fact this has not happened is ONLY because they are Rangers, part of the Old Firm...this in itself shows the institutionalised bias inherent within the Scottish game and it is this point that should be the main focus of the media and fans alike...if the game is ever to progress the step change has to happen now. Sadly this seems to be the last thing anyone is talking about and the last thing that is likely to happen.

[MB62]

One question I am unclear on as regards this SPL vote on a newco.

As I see it, there is no need for a vote until oldco officially become liquidated and therefore no longer exist, until that officially happens we still have ALL present clubs in the SPL.

Once oldco are liquidated we are then a club short in the SPL and need a vote.

Question - How can a club that has been liquidated and doesn't exist, have a vote on ANYTHING? they simply won't exist. If they do exist, there's no need for a vote.

[Gus Fring]

It seems to me that this overlap between Oldco and Newco has the potential to cause massive issues. I can't help but feel this has been manufactured by D+P to somehow keep Rangers alive. Why is it taking so long to liquidate?

[CropleyWasGod]

It seems to me that this overlap between Oldco and Newco has the potential to cause massive issues. I can't help but feel this has been manufactured by D+P to somehow keep Rangers alive. Why is it taking so long to liquidate?

You ever tried buying a house in under 6 weeks? :greengrin

[HibeeMG]

One question I am unclear on as regards this SPL vote on a newco.

As I see it, there is no need for a vote until oldco officially become liquidated and therefore no longer exist, until that officially happens we still have ALL present clubs in the SPL.

Once oldco are liquidated we are then a club short in the SPL and need a vote.

Question - How can a club that has been liquidated and doesn't exist, have a vote on ANYTHING? they simply won't exist. If they do exist, there's no need for a vote.


The clubs will really be voting on whether to allow the license to be transferred from OldCo to NewCo.

[1two]

One question I am unclear on as regards this SPL vote on a newco.

As I see it, there is no need for a vote until oldco officially become liquidated and therefore no longer exist, until that officially happens we still have ALL present clubs in the SPL.

Once oldco are liquidated we are then a club short in the SPL and need a vote.

Question - How can a club that has been liquidated and doesn't exist, have a vote on ANYTHING? they simply won't exist. If they do exist, there's no need for a vote.

Is it possible this is all delay tactics from D&P, Greene etc?

The longer its left, the less time we've got until the season starts. Say the club gets liquidated a fortnight to before the new season, the spl would be forced into making a quick decision into who will take their place. With Dundee set up for Div 1 football, promoting them so late would be both unfair to them and would leave Div 1 short with the same scenario in Div 2, Div 3. Will the SPL chairmen get their arm twisted into agreeing this is the easiest option?

[Andy74]

What a fricking mess...all caused by Rangers.

If the SFA/SPL had any baws at all they would say that it is clear at this point there is far too many uncertainties to even contemplate scheduling Rangers being active in the top flight next season..they are after all now certain to be liquidated (why it's going to take another 6 weeks I have no idea) so are certain not to be able to fulfil their fixtures next year.

The absolutely clear and unambiguous decision to take to protect the inegrity of the SPL next year is to promote Dundee now.

Rangers will then have to re-form and re-apply to the SFL as per the SFL's schedule and rules. These are pretty clear as they have do this quite frequently. Of course other teams could also apply and be considered on merit.


None of the above is 'unfair' on Rangers and all of the above could be clarified within a few days. The future of Scotland’s top flight of football would be clarified and Rangers would have a clear route to follow (follow).


The fact this has not happened is ONLY because they are Rangers, part of the Old Firm...this in itself shows the institutionalised bias inherent within the Scottish game and it is this point that should be the main focus of the media and fans alike...if the game is ever to progress the step change has to happen now. Sadly this seems to be the last thing anyone is talking about and the last thing that is likely to happen.

Fair point about liquidation - is it now actually official that they will be liquidated or does a liquidator not get appointed properly just yet?

Once official, you would think that Dundee could be invited, unless the SPL have already had a request to approve a transfer to a new football club.

[WindyMiller]

One question I am unclear on as regards this SPL vote on a newco.

As I see it, there is no need for a vote until oldco officially become liquidated and therefore no longer exist, until that officially happens we still have ALL present clubs in the SPL.

Once oldco are liquidated we are then a club short in the SPL and need a vote.

Question - How can a club that has been liquidated and doesn't exist, have a vote on ANYTHING? they simply won't exist. If they do exist, there's no need for a vote.


The way I see it is that both can't exist at the same time.

[CropleyWasGod]

Fair point about liquidation - is it now actually official that they will be liquidated or does a liquidator not get appointed properly just yet?

Once official, you would think that Dundee could be invited, unless the SPL have already had a request to approve a transfer to a new football club.

They are not in liquidation yet. I am not sure when that will heppen... it may be at the end of the 28-day cooling-off period, or it may be when the assets are transferred. It may be today :greengrin

It is the latter part that will take the time. As I said above, it's very difficult to buy a house in under 6 weeks, so I see no difference here. (disclaimer:- no-one is yet sure what assets are being transferred. End disclaimer). Remember that the Airdrie administration took years to complete.

[WindyMiller]

The clubs will really be voting on whether to allow the license to be transferred from OldCo to NewCo.

Fairy nuff, but that means that the financial transactions will have been completed for the newco to prove they meet the requirements to be a member.

[Sergio sledge]

The way I see i,t is that both can't exist at the same time.

Why not? They are two seperate companies. If the assets are transferred tomorrow then I'd imagine that an application to transfer SPL membership will be made at the same time. Old Co will still hold the SPL share, but New Co will hold all the assets. The Old Co is not liquidated yet as liquidation and the ensueing investigations can take years.

[Andy74]

The way I see i,t is that both can't exist at the same time.

Two compnaies can, the fact is they would be looking to transfer the licence from one to the other so they could quite easily both be around.

Mind you, they both can't have a ground and players and newco might not have any players but might have a ground. Bizarre!

[Hibbyradge]

You ever tried buying a house in under 6 weeks? :greengrin

I once went to see a flat on the Sunday. It was mine by the Thursday. :agree:

[green glory]

The ideal scenario now would be for Greene to walk if the SPL vote goes against Rangers, leaving BDO/HMRC to effect a public sale of the assets, OR for them to challenge the sale to Greene in the first place. Is this likely, or are BDO content to chase former directors etc?

[Leithenhibby]

So if the Oldco still exists when the season starts, what happens next? Can the registration be taken from the oldco and given to the newco and a vote taken on where they start? What happens with the punishments? Will the oldco just be left to die and all focus will be on the newco?


I thought I'd read some where the UEFA/ FIFA rules don't permit this to happen :pray: Not 100% though ..

[BroxburnHibee]

Having seen todays developments and for whats gone on in the past IMO Rangers WILL be relegated to the lower divisions.

SPL can't continue to ignore this nonsense - they will have to make a decision soon.

[EuanH78]

I thought I'd read some where the UEFA/ FIFA rules don't permit this to happen :pray: Not 100% though ..

NEWCO & UEFA: Explanation

Chapter 2: Licence Applicant and Licence
Article 12: Definition of licence applicant
1) A licence applicant may only be a football club, i.e. a legal entity fully responsible
for a football team participating in national and international competitions which
either:
a) is a registered member of a UEFA member association and/or its affiliated
league (hereinafter: registered member); or
b) has a contractual relationship with a registered member (hereinafter: football
company).
2 The membership and the contractual relationship (if any) must have lasted at
the start of the licence season, for at least three consecutive years. Any
alteration to the club's legal form or company structure (including, for example,
changing its headquarters, name or club colours, or transferring stakeholdings
between different clubs) during this period in order to facilitate its qualification on
sporting merit and/or its receipt of a licence to the detriment of the integrity of a
competition is deemed as an interruption of membership or contractual
relationship (if any) within the meaning of this provision.

As a newco you haven't been in an association, you need 3 years history before you are eligible, this is why a newco will face 3 years as it has no history so is automatically uneligible to compete.

Something along these lines maybe? Lifted this from another forum

[sadtom]

They are not in liquidation yet. I am not sure when that will heppen... it may be at the end of the 28-day cooling-off period, or it may be when the assets are transferred. It may be today :greengrin


And 28 days from now is?...the 12th of July.
If der huns are liquidated on that day then i might start going back to St Pats! But not until after i spend the day in bed with a few bottle o' sparkly laughing like the ******* son of Sid James and Mutley while w***ing myself into a stupour.
Happy happy days!

[green glory]

And 28 days from now is?...the 12th of July.
If der huns are liquidated on that day then i might start going back to St Pats! But not until after i spend the day in bed with a few bottle o' sparkly laughing like the ******* son of Sid James and Mutley while w***ing myself into a stupour.
Happy happy days!

Wafting? If it's that warm in your house, turn the heating down. It's summer FFS!

[MB62]

The clubs will really be voting on whether to allow the license to be transferred from OldCo to NewCo.

But there is no newco, so how can there be a vote, apparently happening on Monday, to transfer a licence that does not, and might not ever exist?


They are not in liquidation yet. I am not sure when that will heppen... it may be at the end of the 28-day cooling-off period, or it may be when the assets are transferred. It may be today :greengrin

It was reported today I believe, that any newco would take at least 14 days to set up, so again we are at the question of, how can you vote on something that is not there to be voted on?

I just don't see how oldco can have any say/vote on something that will be directly linked to them, this is more than sporting integrity it's just basic ethics. For example, if Rod happened to be on a three man panel on whether P.F. should be punished for his gesture at the cup final, he would not be allowed to vote due to self interest, same goes for oldco.

[Lungo--Drom]

1two, just as we are spending time posting and reading on Hibs.net, wishing and hoping that Anger FC disappear down a big bottomless hole with a one way ticket to hell stapled to their manky blue collars I am sure that the Hun/Weeg media/corrupt businessmen alliance that is working most of the strings on this whole mess are spending even more time than us trying to:

> keep the evil beast of RFC alive
> make as much money out of it (e.g. D&P) as possible
> bombard everyone in Scotland with their rotten blue tinged view of the world, i.e. Rangers mustn't die/Scottish football will die without Rangers etc. in a pathetic attempt to make everyone possessed of a brain believe in their lie.

This attitude that they all have, all the pish spouting pundits on TV, radio and in the papers, Whyte, Greene, Murray, Sally McCoist etc. is just plain insulting to everyone who doesn't think like them. What they fail to realise is that everyone else who isn't them has a brain and a free spirit and an interest in things other than their bigoted hate filled cheating stupid little bankrupt footbal team from Govan. A***holes! :D


Is it possible this is all delay tactics from D&P, Greene etc?

The longer its left, the less time we've got until the season starts. Say the club gets liquidated a fortnight to before the new season, the spl would be forced into making a quick decision into who will take their place. With Dundee set up for Div 1 football, promoting them so late would be both unfair to them and would leave Div 1 short with the same scenario in Div 2, Div 3. Will the SPL chairmen get their arm twisted into agreeing this is the easiest option?

[TheEastTerrace]

Richard Winton on Twitter saying that a new bidder is in for the club

Walter Smith, James McColl and Douglas Park

[Gus Fring]

Richard Winton on Twitter saying that a new bidder is in for the club

@BBCAlLamont: Walter Smith is fronting a new bid for Rangers, with Jim McColl and Douglas Park involved

[CropleyWasGod]

I once went to see a flat on the Sunday. It was mine by the Thursday. :agree:

There's always one. Do one :greengrin

VVVVVVVVV

[shezer]

Richard Winton on Twitter saying that a new bidder is in for the club

Walter Smith leading new bid

[Caversham Green]

But there is no newco, so how can there be a vote, apparently happening on Monday, to transfer a licence that does not, and might not ever exist?



It was reported today I believe, that any newco would take at least 14 days to set up, so again we are at the question of, how can you vote on something that is not there to be voted on?

I just don't see how oldco can have any say/vote on something that will be directly linked to them, this is more than sporting integrity it's just basic ethics. For example, if Rod happened to be on a three man panel on whether P.F. should be punished for his gesture at the cup final, he would not be allowed to vote due to self interest, same goes for oldco.

There are 12 SPL shares in existence - that doesn't change. One of those shares is held by Rangers FC and they are proposing to transfer that share to a company that has just or will soon be set up - you can obtain a company online in about an hour for a payment of £13 now - and the impending vote is to determine whether or not the current 12 holders of the shares approve the transfer. Rangers are entitled to vote as the current holders of a share in the same way that a prime minister is entitled to vote in a general election. If RFC disappeared before a newco was formed the share would revert to the SPL board to be offered to another club, probably Dundee subject to a similar vote of the remaining 11 clubs plus the SPL board, but the share would not cease to exist.

[StevieC]

Richard Winton on Twitter saying that a new bidder is in for the club

This is no real surprise.

The opportunity to buy a debt free Rangers for little more than £5.5m, regardless of where they are playing their football next season, is a very attractive offer.



Mad Vlad might even consider it :greengrin

[Peevemor]

@BBCAlLamont: Walter Smith is fronting a new bid for Rangers, with Jim McColl and Douglas Park involved

What - they're moving to Hamilton with the boy from the Beechgrove Garden as owner?

[HibeeMG]

STATEMENT FROM WALTER SMITH
"I can today confirm that following talks over the last few weeks I am leading a new bid for Rangers Football Club.
"I have been assisted by Jim McColl, Douglas Park and other prominent Scottish businessmen with a shared objective - that Rangers Football Club should be in the hands of Rangers people who will stabilise the club and protect it from future situations like we find ourselves in today.
"With this in mind, representatives have, on behalf of my group, made representations to BDO, Duff and Phelps and indeed Charles Green, notifying them of our willingness to offer on the "Newco" basis on which Mr Green is proceeding.
"We would call on Mr Green to step aside and allow us to proceed with our deal which is in the best interests of the creditors, the employees, the fans and the various other stakeholders of Rangers Football Club.
"None of our group has any desire to own Rangers Football Club but we have put this deal in place to save the Club.
"However, our overriding objective is to ensure that the stadium, the history and everything else magical about Rangers Football Club is protected and nurtured back to good health and provide a platform for Rangers for generations to come.
"Let's be clear, this is an acquisition designed to stabilise the Club and ensure history does not repeat itself.
"We are not in this to take money out of the Club but more so to do whatever it takes in a turnaround plan to ensure within a few years the Club can be passed on intact and to the right people.
"The supporters should be under no illusion that it will be extremely hard but with their support we can overcome financial hardship that lies ahead by lending their support to what we feel is the correct way forward - for Rangers people who know the Club inside and out to control its destiny.
"The prominent Scottish businessmen involved have agreed to provide acquisition funding to allow myself and a management team to take on Rangers Football Club and make the business self-sufficient with long term sustainability being essential.
"I would hope that this offer is fully supported by everyone in the Rangers Family as without them the Club cannot and will not survive.
"We therefore want to ensure honesty and transparency in everything we do. We want to rebuild Rangers Football Club and in doing so return the institution to the standards it is known for

[Frazerbob]

STATEMENT FROM WALTER SMITH
"I can today confirm that following talks over the last few weeks I am leading a new bid for Rangers Football Club.
"I have been assisted by Jim McColl, Douglas Park and other prominent Scottish businessmen with a shared objective - that Rangers Football Club should be in the ha...nds of Rangers people who will stabilise the club and protect it from future situations like we find ourselves in today.
"With this in mind, representatives have, on behalf of my group, made representations to BDO, Duff and Phelps and indeed Charles Green, notifying them of our willingness to offer on the "Newco" basis on which Mr Green is proceeding.
"We would call on Mr Green to step aside and allow us to proceed with our deal which is in the best interests of the creditors, the employees, the fans and the various other stakeholders of Rangers Football Club.
"None of our group has any desire to own Rangers Football Club but we have put this deal in place to save the Club.
"However, our overriding objective is to ensure that the stadium, the history and everything else magical about Rangers Football Club is protected and nurtured back to good health and provide a platform for Rangers for generations to come.
"Let's be clear, this is an acquisition designed to stabilise the Club and ensure history does not repeat itself.
"We are not in this to take money out of the Club but more so to do whatever it takes in a turnaround plan to ensure within a few years the Club can be passed on intact and to the right people.
"The supporters should be under no illusion that it will be extremely hard but with their support we can overcome financial hardship that lies ahead by lending their support to what we feel is the correct way forward - for Rangers people who know the Club inside and out to control its destiny.
"The prominent Scottish businessmen involved have agreed to provide acquisition funding to allow myself and a management team to take on Rangers Football Club and make the business self-sufficient with long term sustainability being essential.
"I would hope that this offer is fully supported by everyone in the Rangers Family as without them the Club cannot and will not survive.
"We therefore want to ensure honesty and transparency in everything we do. We want to rebuild Rangers Football Club and in doing so return the institution to the standards it is known for."

[hibs0666]

Walter Smith leading new bid

Nice bit of attention-seeking from Walter there. I always thought that Douglas Park was a yam but there you go.

[Joe's ice cream]

What - they're moving to Hamilton with the boy from the Beechgrove Garden as owner?

Statment from Wally

"None of our group has any desire to own Rangers Football Club but we have put this deal in place to save the club.
"However, our overriding objective is to ensure that the stadium, the history and everything else magical about Rangers Football Club is protected and nurtured back to good health and provide a platform for Rangers for generations to come.
"Let's be clear, this is an acquisition designed to stabilise the club and ensure history does not repeat itself.
"We are not in this to take money out of the club but more so to do whatever it takes in a turnaround plan to ensure within a few years the club can be passed on intact and to the right people.
"The supporters should be under no illusion that it will be extremely hard but with their support we can overcome financial hardship that lies ahead by lending their support to what we feel is the correct way forward - for Rangers people who know the club inside and out to control its destiny.
"The prominent Scottish businessmen involved have agreed to provide acquisition funding to allow myself and a management team to take on Rangers Football Club and make the business self-sufficient with long term sustainability being essential.
"I would hope that this offer is fully supported by everyone in the Rangers Family as without them the club cannot and will not survive.
"We therefore want to ensure honesty and transparency in everything we do. We want to rebuild Rangers Football Club and in doing so return the institution to the standards it is known for."
1500:
Walter Smith statement
"I can today confirm that following talks over the last few weeks I am leading a new bid for Rangers Football Club.
"I have been assisted by Jim McColl, Douglas Park and other prominent Scottish businessmen with a shared objective - that Rangers Football Club should be in the hands of Rangers people who will stabilise the club and protect it from future situations like we find ourselves in today.
"With this in mind, representatives have, on behalf of my group, made representations to BDO, Duff and Phelps and indeed Charles Green, notifying them of our willingness to offer on the "Newco" basis on which Mr Green is proceeding.
"We would call on Mr Green to step aside and allow us to proceed with our deal which is in the best interests of the creditors, the employees, the fans and the various other stakeholders of Rangers Football Club.
"None of our group has any desire to own Rangers Football Club but we have put this deal in place to save the club.
"However, our overriding objective is to ensure that the stadium, the history and everything else magical about Rangers Football Club is protected and nurtured back to good health and provide a platform for Rangers for generations to come.
"Let's be clear, this is an acquisition designed to stabilise the club and ensure history does not repeat itself.
"We are not in this to take money out of the club but more so to do whatever it takes in a turnaround plan to ensure within a few years the club can be passed on intact and to the right people.
"The supporters should be under no illusion that it will be extremely hard but with their support we can overcome financial hardship that lies ahead by lending their support to what we feel is the correct way forward - for Rangers people who know the club inside and out to control its destiny.
"The prominent Scottish businessmen involved have agreed to provide acquisition funding to allow myself and a management team to take on Rangers Football Club and make the business self-sufficient with long term sustainability being essential.
"I would hope that this offer is fully supported by everyone in the Rangers Family as without them the club cannot and will not survive.
"We therefore want to ensure honesty and transparency in everything we do. We want to rebuild Rangers Football Club and in doing so return the institution to the standards it is known for."

Brilliant- cant help themselves, Rangers Family, blah blah balh - as for "return the institution to the standards it is known for." you can only maks it up

[johnrebus]

STATEMENT FROM WALTER SMITH
"I can today confirm that following talks over the last few weeks I am leading a new bid for Rangers Football Club.
"I have been assisted by Jim McColl, Douglas Park and other prominent Scottish businessmen with a shared objective - that Rangers Football Club should be in the ha...nds of Rangers people who will stabilise the club and protect it from future situations like we find ourselves in today.
"With this in mind, representatives have, on behalf of my group, made representations to BDO, Duff and Phelps and indeed Charles Green, notifying them of our willingness to offer on the "Newco" basis on which Mr Green is proceeding.
"We would call on Mr Green to step aside and allow us to proceed with our deal which is in the best interests of the creditors, the employees, the fans and the various other stakeholders of Rangers Football Club.
"None of our group has any desire to own Rangers Football Club but we have put this deal in place to save the Club.
"However, our overriding objective is to ensure that the stadium, the history and everything else magical about Rangers Football Club is protected and nurtured back to good health and provide a platform for Rangers for generations to come.
"Let's be clear, this is an acquisition designed to stabilise the Club and ensure history does not repeat itself.
"We are not in this to take money out of the Club but more so to do whatever it takes in a turnaround plan to ensure within a few years the Club can be passed on intact and to the right people.
"The supporters should be under no illusion that it will be extremely hard but with their support we can overcome financial hardship that lies ahead by lending their support to what we feel is the correct way forward - for Rangers people who know the Club inside and out to control its destiny.
"The prominent Scottish businessmen involved have agreed to provide acquisition funding to allow myself and a management team to take on Rangers Football Club and make the business self-sufficient with long term sustainability being essential.
"I would hope that this offer is fully supported by everyone in the Rangers Family as without them the Club cannot and will not survive.
"We therefore want to ensure honesty and transparency in everything we do. We want to rebuild Rangers Football Club and in doing so return the institution to the standards it is known for."


Is Wattie as thick as the rest of them?


It will be a NEW club.


There is no history.



:na na:

[MB62]

According to Forth news, Walter Smith and the guy Parks from Parks of Hamilton have contacted Duff and Duffer to say they are interested in buying rangers under the NEWCO status

[johnrebus]

Statment from Wally

"None of our group has any desire to own Rangers Football Club but we have put this deal in place to save the club.
"However, our overriding objective is to ensure that the stadium, the history and everything else magical about Rangers Football Club is protected and nurtured back to good health and provide a platform for Rangers for generations to come.
"Let's be clear, this is an acquisition designed to stabilise the club and ensure history does not repeat itself.
"We are not in this to take money out of the club but more so to do whatever it takes in a turnaround plan to ensure within a few years the club can be passed on intact and to the right people.
"The supporters should be under no illusion that it will be extremely hard but with their support we can overcome financial hardship that lies ahead by lending their support to what we feel is the correct way forward - for Rangers people who know the club inside and out to control its destiny.
"The prominent Scottish businessmen involved have agreed to provide acquisition funding to allow myself and a management team to take on Rangers Football Club and make the business self-sufficient with long term sustainability being essential.
"I would hope that this offer is fully supported by everyone in the Rangers Family as without them the club cannot and will not survive.
"We therefore want to ensure honesty and transparency in everything we do. We want to rebuild Rangers Football Club and in doing so return the institution to the standards it is known for."
1500:
Walter Smith statement
"I can today confirm that following talks over the last few weeks I am leading a new bid for Rangers Football Club.
"I have been assisted by Jim McColl, Douglas Park and other prominent Scottish businessmen with a shared objective - that Rangers Football Club should be in the hands of Rangers people who will stabilise the club and protect it from future situations like we find ourselves in today.
"With this in mind, representatives have, on behalf of my group, made representations to BDO, Duff and Phelps and indeed Charles Green, notifying them of our willingness to offer on the "Newco" basis on which Mr Green is proceeding.
"We would call on Mr Green to step aside and allow us to proceed with our deal which is in the best interests of the creditors, the employees, the fans and the various other stakeholders of Rangers Football Club.
"None of our group has any desire to own Rangers Football Club but we have put this deal in place to save the club.
"However, our overriding objective is to ensure that the stadium, the history and everything else magical about Rangers Football Club is protected and nurtured back to good health and provide a platform for Rangers for generations to come.
"Let's be clear, this is an acquisition designed to stabilise the club and ensure history does not repeat itself.
"We are not in this to take money out of the club but more so to do whatever it takes in a turnaround plan to ensure within a few years the club can be passed on intact and to the right people.
"The supporters should be under no illusion that it will be extremely hard but with their support we can overcome financial hardship that lies ahead by lending their support to what we feel is the correct way forward - for Rangers people who know the club inside and out to control its destiny.
"The prominent Scottish businessmen involved have agreed to provide acquisition funding to allow myself and a management team to take on Rangers Football Club and make the business self-sufficient with long term sustainability being essential.
"I would hope that this offer is fully supported by everyone in the Rangers Family as without them the club cannot and will not survive.
"We therefore want to ensure honesty and transparency in everything we do. We want to rebuild Rangers Football Club and in doing so return the institution to the standards it is known for."

Brilliant- cant help themselves, Rangers Family, blah blah balh - as for "return the institution to the standards it is known for." you can only maks it up



What's that then?

Back to dragging Scottish Football and Scotland itself through the gutter?


No thanks.



:rolleyes:

[monktonharp]

According to Forth news, Walter Smith and the guy Parks from Parks of Hamilton have contacted Duff and Duffer to say they are interested in buying rangers under the NEWCO status ooooooer! that's impressive. Parks made their money by running scab buses during the miner's strike! gave them the capital for a new fleet

[Spike Mandela]

@BBCAlLamont: Walter Smith is fronting a new bid for Rangers, with Jim McColl and Douglas Park involved

Ha ha finally the original agenda of this whole farcical saga becomes clear. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated:faf:

[Monts]

So technically walter could be using the money hes taken through EBTs to buy the club?

The merry-go-round continues...

[1two]

Ha ha finally the original agenda of this whole farcical saga becomes clear. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated:faf:

Exactly
If they're not interested in owning rangers and only look to protect the clubs history etc where were they before the oldco were finished

[Zondervan]

There are 12 SPL shares in existence - that doesn't change. One of those shares is held by Rangers FC and they are proposing to transfer that share to a company that has just or will soon be set up - you can obtain a company online in about an hour for a payment of £13 now - and the impending vote is to determine whether or not the current 12 holders of the shares approve the transfer. Rangers are entitled to vote as the current holders of a share in the same way that a prime minister is entitled to vote in a general election. If RFC disappeared before a newco was formed the share would revert to the SPL board to be offered to another club, probably Dundee subject to a similar vote of the remaining 11 clubs plus the SPL board, but the share would not cease to exist.

This is the most reassuring statement on this thread! Wonder when Doncaster will make a statement to the same effect?

[johnbc70]

Greene does not stand a chance now.

[Paisley Hibby]

So technically walter could be using the money hes taken through EBTs to buy the club?

The merry-go-round continues...

I thought he was one of the very few who did not get any money from the EBT?

[Paisley Hibby]

Greene does not stand a chance now.

But Duff and Duffer have assured us all that the deal with Greene is binding...:cb

[Lungo--Drom]

Totally with you there Spike, I fully believe that this announcement is the culmination of several months of behind the secret blue doors midnight meetings...
....and that this was ALWAYS WHAT WAS MEANT TO HAPPEN by those really working the strings. I believe a lot of the pish we have seen and heard over the past weeks was just a deliberately planned smokescreen to trick everyone and all along Herr Valter Hitler has been planning this along with "Rangers family friends". Sorry need to dash to the toilet now and throw up... :@


Ha ha finally the original agenda of this whole farcical saga becomes clear. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated:faf:

[BarneyK]

But Duff and Duffer have assured us all that the deal with Greene is binding...:cb

Aye it is, Chuckie will be asked to step aside... :rolleyes:

[Part/Time Supporter]

But Duff and Duffer have assured us all that the deal with Greene is binding...:cb

Potential for Hun civil war if Charlie sticks to his guns.

[Spike Mandela]

But Duff and Duffer have assured us all that the deal with Greene is binding...:cb

Doesn't stop Greene selling to them. Clearly McCoist was aware of this deal and his threat of resigning this morning helping to make Green even more unpopular. Crooks and cheats the lot of them.

Next the crusade about Sir Walter and Saint Ally the men that can be trusted by the SPL. RP and co don't have a chance.

[stokesmessiah]

But Duff and Duffer have assured us all that the deal with Greene is binding...:cb

Until fans say they wont buy season tickets and players say they wont transfer to Green's newco.

[BarneyK]

Doesn't stop Greene selling to them. Clearly McCoist was aware of this deal and his threat of resigning this morning helping to make Green even more unpopular. Crooks and cheats the lot of them.

Next the crusade about Sir Walter and Saint Ally the men that can be trusted by the SPL. RP and co don't have a chance.

They do if they stick to their guns. Regardless who in charge, they cheated, they take their punishment.

[Andy74]

The same Walter Smith that helped spend Rangers into this situation?

Mind you, at £5.5 million for all those assets I might just pop into the bank tomorrow with a buisness plan.

[Spike Mandela]

Apparently Sir Walter Cheats consortium offering £6m. Hardly the massive increase in cash that would tempt administrators out of a binding deal unless consortium relying on public pressure to force Green to walk away. Unless this has been planned all along of course.

[down-the-slope]

Having seen todays developments and for whats gone on in the past IMO Rangers WILL be relegated to the lower divisions.

SPL can't continue to ignore this nonsense - they will have to make a decision soon.

There is no mechanism for that.

Although might be seen as pedantic (wouldn't be the first time) The more clarity over some of this stuff the better as the amount of mis-information is frightening.

Member SPL clubs can vote whether to allow transfer of share (just be glad this was changed or it would have been board) or not. What happens after that is of no concern / influence of SPL.
SPL/SFL have no arrangements / agreements to the effect of what happens next to a 'league less' club

Should it be a NO the NewCo would have to apply to SFL as there is no automatic right / system for them to go into their league....

[Spike Mandela]

So technically walter could be using the money hes taken through EBTs to buy the club?

The merry-go-round continues...

Will any of the succulent lamb brigade have the balls to ask Sir Walter Cheat about his EBT payments in his first press conference?

Don't be silly:rolleyes:

[green glory]

Rangerstaxcase tweeting, asking mainstream journos to ask about HIS EBT's, especially what he received while managing Scotland and Everton. Maybe Wally just needs to get his hands on some sensitive documents and the RFC shredder.

[CropleyWasGod]

Will any of the succulent lamb brigade have the balls to ask Sir Walter Cheat about his EBT payments in his first press conference?

Don't be silly:rolleyes:

According to the BBC investigation, there weren't any.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

[GloryGlory]

Apparently Sir Walter Cheats consortium offering £6m. Hardly the massive increase in cash that would tempt administrators out of a binding deal unless consortium relying on public pressure to force Green to walk away. Unless this has been planned all along of course.

Hmmmm... is it me, or was Uncle Watty (and his backers) waiting for others to do the dirty work and get Rangers liquidated, so that they could come in and be seen as the "saviours" of the club because it's not their fault that the club will be liquidated?

[matty_f]

According to the BBC investigation, there weren't any.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

They haven't seen evidence of any, which is different to there not being any :wink:

[green glory]

According to the BBC investigation, there weren't any.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

Remember these may only be the ones the BBC are aware of. RTC may have more info. In fact they seem pretty adamant.

[Spike Mandela]

According to the BBC investigation, there weren't any.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818


Bugger! :cb

Might still be worth asking though!

[down-the-slope]

Is Wattie as thick as the rest of them?


It will be a NEW club.


There is no history.



:na na:
:agree: we must do everything to ensure this is the case an pull up press etc when they start banging on about records etc.

No History No cup or league wins No stars on shirts....its just MK Dons with bigitory

[CropleyWasGod]

Bugger! :cb

Might still be worth asking though!

Of course it is... keep the pressure on. :greengrin

EDIT.. TBH, it is kinda surprising that he's not on the list.

[Twa Cairpets]

:agree: we must do everything to ensure this is the case an pull up press etc when they start banging on about records etc.

No History No cup or league wins No starts on shirts....its just MK Dons with bigotry

:top marks