Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[PaulC]

Interesting comments in this court case from the HMRC and Sheriff

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-18352528


However, Sheriff Kenneth Robb said he did not agree that nobody had been harmed by the offence.
He said that in an age of financial constraints, £635,000 was a lot of money which could have helped the public purse.
He told Maxwell: "You have enjoyed the fruits of your labour and the tax that you should have paid.
"The tree may be bare, but you used the fruits over many years."

David Odd, HMRC's assistant director of criminal investigation in Scotland, said: "This was a case of deliberate and systematic fraud.

[Gus Fring]

I can't post a link at present but go to scotslawthoughts for the latest bombshell. It explains why D&P were initially so bullish about a quich CVA.

Heres the link http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/revealed-craig-whytes-master-plan-he-came-up-with-the-incubator-company/ (http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/)

[greenginger]

BDO have been appointed as the liquidators and are on standby according to posts on Kerrydale Street

I'm sure ages ago someone here reported that an all staff email had gone round BDO asking if anyone had a conflict of interest??


BDO Address -- 55 Baker Street, London.

I think I'll dig out that old Gerry Rafferty classic for e few plays in the coming weeks.

[grunt]

alex thomson‏@alextomoRangers: time to make HMRC explain the delay in verdict on Big Tax Case. Onto them tomorrow.

[CropleyWasGod]

Is Dave King still active at Rangers? Or was he one of those that left after Whyte took over? If he is still actuve its very interesting that he would feel compelled to make these comments rather than just keeping schtum

He is the second largest shareholder .

IIRC he threatened legal action earlier in the process , for the same sum; and on the same basis, but against SDM rather than the club . I am curious as to why the change

[CropleyWasGod]

What are the implications of this claim for a CVA?

One for CG or CWG I suspect?

I thought that legal actions against a club in admin weren't allowed . I must be wrong on that.

However , he has missed the deadline fir lodging a claim in the administration . . Maybe that's why he wants the CVA rejected ?

[ancient hibee]

King,who has somehow stayed out of a South African jail is going to sue for fraud?

[Zondervan]

The suggestion seems to be that BDO are the favoured liquidator of HMRC, therefore does this allude to HMRC not accepting the CVA?

Or in the words of China Crisis, is that just Wishful Thinking on my part?

[blackpoolhibs]

The suggestion seems to be that BDO are the favoured liquidator of HMRC, therefore does this allude to HMRC not accepting the CVA?

Or in the words of China Crisis, is that just Wishful Thinking on my part?

Thats what i was thinking too, we can only hope so?:agree:

[hibs0666]

I thought that legal actions against a club in admin weren't allowed . I must be wrong on that.

However , he has missed the deadline fir lodging a claim in the administration . . Maybe that's why he wants the CVA rejected ?

Think he was one of the 47 TBC's in the document.

[Onion]

The suggestion seems to be that BDO are the favoured liquidator of HMRC, therefore does this allude to HMRC not accepting the CVA?

Or in the words of China Crisis, is that just Wishful Thinking on my part?

Looks like they're lining up their chess pieces. Understand they've insisted that BDO act as observers to the liquidation process which speaks volumes about their faith in D&P. Expect if D&P try anything sly like selling off the assets cheaply to their Rangers buddies, the tax man will hammer em :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

What are the implications of this claim for a CVA?

One for CG or CWG I suspect?


He is the second largest shareholder .

IIRC he threatened legal action earlier in the process , for the same sum; and on the same basis, but against SDM rather than the club . I am curious as to why the change

My first reaction on seeing this news was to call stitch-up. Hows this for a conspiracy theory.

King's claim, if accepted, reduces HMRC's share of the debt to below the magic 25% (actually I don't think it does, but anyhow...). King has a Damascene moment and realises that Green is a good egg after all and votes through the CVA, getting £200k for every penny in the pound of dividend. Green gets his free football club and they all live happily ever after. The reason he's warning against huns buying ST's is that before the CVA the money could be claimed for part of the settlement, but after the CVA it all goes to the newly rich club. It's a gamble, but maybe it's the last throw of the dice and King doesn't really have a reputation to worry about anyway.

Seeing the strength of his comments this now seems unlikely, but who knows?

[joe breezy]

For the legal eagles and accountants

Surely if they liquidise they have to sell the lot?
Yet from what I've heard the hun media are thinking Ipox stays and Govan Dodgers play there in red white and blue, no change really?

Which is correct? Any info appreciated

[jgl07]

For the legal eagles and accountants

Surely if they liquidise they have to sell the lot?
Yet from what I've heard the hun media are thinking Ipox stays and Govan Dodgers play there in red white and blue, no change really?

Which is correct? Any info appreciated

Duff and Phelps seem to have done a sweetheart deal to sell the assets of Rangers Oldco to Sir Charles and the Green Knights for a knockdown price in the event that the CVA fails.

So when it comes to liquidation of the Oldco there will be nothing of value left.

[Bostonhibby]

Are you kidding.

There are masonic organizations throughout the world.

They were traditionally quite strong in Switzerland especially in Protestant cantons.

The French revoution was largely organized by masonic organizations especially the Girondins (from Bordeaux) and the Jacobins.

Sorry, missed the smiley off, was being sarcy!

[McSwanky]

Insouciance. There's a word that'll have Chick Young and Jim Traynor scrambling for their dictionaries...

[GordonHFC]

Duff and Phelps seem to have done a sweetheart deal to sell the assets of Rangers Oldco to Sir Charles and the Green Knights for a knockdown price in the event that the CVA fails.

So when it comes to liquidation of the Oldco there will be nothing of value left.

But surely it is down to the liquidators (BDO?) as to what happens to the assets and not D&P ?

[CropleyWasGod]

Think he was one of the 47 TBC's in the document.

Ah okay, ta.

The TBC probably means that D & P are still "adjudicating" his claim.

[CropleyWasGod]

My first reaction on seeing this news was to call stitch-up. Hows this for a conspiracy theory.

King's claim, if accepted, reduces HMRC's share of the debt to below the magic 25% (actually I don't think it does, but anyhow...). King has a Damascene moment and realises that Green is a good egg after all and votes through the CVA, getting £200k for every penny in the pound of dividend. Green gets his free football club and they all live happily ever after. The reason he's warning against huns buying ST's is that before the CVA the money could be claimed for part of the settlement, but after the CVA it all goes to the newly rich club. It's a gamble, but maybe it's the last throw of the dice and King doesn't really have a reputation to worry about anyway.

Seeing the strength of his comments this now seems unlikely, but who knows?

Who knows, indeed. That's as likely a scenario as any for me, just now.

King's motives (and integrity) are really suspect for me. Why did he change the target of his action from SDM to RFC? If he really feels he has been "duped", SDM would be the correct target, no?

[CropleyWasGod]

But surely it is down to the liquidators (BDO?) as to what happens to the assets and not D&P ?

If BDO are in as liquidators, it probably makes it more likely that any knock-down sale would be challenged.

[jgl07]

Who knows, indeed. That's as likely a scenario as any for me, just now.

King's motives (and integrity) are really suspect for me. Why did he change the target of his action from SDM to RFC? If he really feels he has been "duped", SDM would be the correct target, no?

King is not only calling for the CVA to be rejected but for Rangers fans to boycott season ticket sales.

He is arguing that the Green Knights sale will prove to be a rerun of the Craig Whyte takeover. There is no capital being injected into the club as the purchase price is in the form of a repayable loan at 8% interest. Hence any working capital will have to come from season ticket sales.

[Paisley Hibby]

King is not only calling for the CVA to be rejected but for Rangers fans to boycott season ticket sales.

He is arguing that the Green Knights sale will prove to be a rerun of the Craig Whyte takeover. There is no capital being injected into the club as the purchase price is in the form of a repayable loan at 8% interest. Hence any working capital will have to come from season ticket sales.

But if they pull it off that will give them a lot more working capital than any other Scottish Club (bar Sellik).

[JeMeSouviens]

Encouraging ...



Jim Spence ‏@bbcjimspence

United chairman also says Scottish football can survive without Rangers and that he is in talks about a new deal for manager Peter Houston

Jim Spence ‏@bbcjimspence

Dundee United chairman Stephen Thompson believes clubs would not vote a Rangers Newco into SPL as things stand at present.

[Leithenhibby]

King is not only calling for the CVA to be rejected but for Rangers fans to boycott season ticket sales.

He is arguing that the Green Knights sale will prove to be a rerun of the Craig Whyte takeover. There is no capital being injected into the club as the purchase price is in the form of a repayable loan at 8% interest. Hence any working capital will have to come from season ticket sales.

According to this headline he is - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18360427

The next two weeks are going to be very tasty indeed. :wink:

[ancient hibee]

King wants to sue Rangers-he is the second biggest shareholder so in effect he will be on both sides in any court case-makes sense.

[jgl07]

But if they pull it off that will give them a lot more working capital than any other Scottish Club (bar Sellik).

What after putting the cash into the CVA pot?

[Paisley Hibby]

What after putting the cash into the CVA pot?

I think so because the CVA cash is coming from a long term loan from Green's mob. It will then be manageable debt repaid over a long period at 8%? In other words, they would be in a much better financial position than most other Scottish clubs. But they need the creditors to bend over and take it first.

[stokesmessiah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18367751

King at it again.

[The Green Goblin]

King wants to sue Rangers-he is the second biggest shareholder so in effect he will be on both sides in any court case-makes sense.


Is that the legal action equivalent of borrowing money from yourself so you're not in debt? :greengrin

[dolphan]

Encouraging signs - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18365480

[JeMeSouviens]

The Huns have sent out their ST renewals.


fans are encouraged to renew as quickly as possible before the renewal deadline of 2 July

Good luck with that one, Huns. :na na:

[Gus Fring]

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BBCAlLamont
Right, plenty to follow from Charles Green but first ...the admins are moving to terminate Dave King's directorship of Rangers
08/06/2012 16:23 (https://twitter.com/bbcallamont/status/211116155614666752)

[Seveno]

Encouraging signs - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18365480

A hint of sunshine on a dull wet day. :thumbsup:

[stokesmessiah]

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BBCAlLamont
Right, plenty to follow from Charles Green but first ...the admins are moving to terminate Dave King's directorship of Rangers
08/06/2012 16:23 (https://twitter.com/bbcallamont/status/211116155614666752)






Can someone tell me that has to do with getting the best deal for the creditors??

They have spent more time faffing about with trivial stuff than anything else.

[greenginger]

The SPL or it might have been the SFA gave Duff and Duffer an extension of time to submit paperwork for next season license. This would give them something to transfer to the New Club ( If there is enough funny handshakers ) after the liquidiser is done its job.

Has anyone heard if the fairy-tale financial forecasts have been produced or have the Duffs just chucked in the towelas they must know their meal-ticket will soon be ended ?

[Spike Mandela]

STV now saying Green suggesting Rangers may have to accept signing embargo. Details on STV shortly.

Is that the sound of panicking I hear?

[snooky]

STV now saying Green suggesting Rangers may have to accept signing embargo. Details on STV shortly.

Is that the sound of panicking I hear?

"Beep-beep-beep-beep-beep ... I'm reversing"

[SurferRosa]

STV now saying Green suggesting Rangers may have to accept signing embargo. Details on STV shortly.

Is that the sound of panicking I hear?

The orcs will go ballistic......superb.

Hopefully FIFA will still want them hammered for going to the CoS in the first place....

[CropleyWasGod]

The orcs will go ballistic......superb.

Hopefully FIFA will still want them hammered for going to the CoS in the first place....

I don't think they do.

[grunt]

I thought this was quite good...

http://maleysbhoys.com/2012/06/07/twenty-six-reasons-why-rangers-f-c-1872-will-die/

[Brando7]

STV now saying Green suggesting Rangers may have to accept signing embargo. Details on STV shortly.

Is that the sound of panicking I hear?

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/105425-rangers-crisis-green-cannot-rule-out-accepting-sfa-signing-ban/

[lapsedhibee]

Green suggesting Rangers may have to accept signing embargo.

That can't be right. Wasn't it respected journalist W.Doddsy who declared that a signing embargo would kill Rangers?

[HibeesLA]

STV now saying Green suggesting Rangers may have to accept signing embargo. Details on STV shortly.

Is that the sound of panicking I hear?

Too late, they had their chance, took it to court and made the league pay the costs. Screw them, suspend them for the year, no accepting some grovelling apology because they realise they are done if they don't.

[Biggie]

Too late, they had their chance, took it to court and made the league pay the costs. Screw them, suspend them for the year, no accepting some grovelling apology because they realise they are done if they don't.

This. :thumbsup:

[down-the-slope]

Green could be playing this as he may now the Transfer ban was 'best' they could get...but by doing things his ways he moves blame when he gets his way of having to see big wage earners walk and not be able to spend to replace....

(so thats cash in and ...oh dear cant spend any) :wink:

[Onion]

Green could be playing this as he may now the Transfer ban was 'best' they could get...but by doing things his ways he moves blame when he gets his way of having to see big wage earners walk and not be able to spend to replace....

(so thats cash in and ...oh dear cant spend any) :wink:

Nah... you're giving these plonkers far too much credit. They've messed up BIG TIME and only now realise that they've dug themselves into a hole that even the slippery huns cannot slither out of. Expulsion now awaits, along with the demise of the CVA & Greene's buy out plan. Having escaped proper punishment and pissed off everyone (HMRC, Ticketus, creditors, SFA/SPL, and all the other SPL clubs, the rest will then deny NewHun direct entry into the SPL. HMRC will insist on all their assets being sold on the open market, D&P will be prosecuted for collusion, deception and crimes against Scotland, Ally will flee to his beloved Engerlund to live with Sue as an exile, there will be a Parliamentary Enquiry into the cosy relationship between der Hun and the Scottish media with subsequent prosecutions for undeclared financial benefits, abuse of power and Chick Young. Murray will be stripped of his knighthood, Celtic will get sick of winning the SPL watched by home crowds of 8000 and return to Ireland. And in the year 2021, Hibernian FC will triumph winning the domestic Treble (for the 2nd year running) filling Easter Road for the first time ever :greengrin

You heard it here first.

[johnbc70]

Now paving the way for the 'newco' http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18373399?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Made me laugh when he said they want to "increase the club's profile in Asia" Oh yes I am sure there is huge potential for a bigoted, cheating football club in the likes of India and China etc. This is going to be like Portsmouth and I see Rangers flirting in and out of administration over the next few years if they think attracting fans in Asia is a reliable and realistic plan to raise some funds etc. Bring it on!

[CropleyWasGod]

Now paving the way for the 'newco' http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18373399?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Made me laugh when he said they want to "increase the club's profile in Asia" Oh yes I am sure there is huge potential for a bigoted, cheating football club in the likes of India and China etc. This is going to be like Portsmouth and I see Rangers flirting in and out of administration over the next few years if they think attracting fans in Asia is a reliable and realistic plan to raise some funds etc. Bring it on!

"We have stated publicly on a number of occasions that our preferred option is a CVA and it's really down to HMRC," added Green.
"HMRC have had the documentation for over a week so, with each day that passes, we have to assume that they are on board.
"It would be awful if they were to announce on the day that they were turning it down.
"If that's their decision, God forbid, then tell us early please and put us out of our misery."

<s******>

[down-the-slope]

"We have stated publicly on a number of occasions that our preferred option is a CVA and it's really down to HMRC," added Green.
"HMRC have had the documentation for over a week so, with each day that passes, we have to assume that they are on board.
"It would be awful if they were to announce on the day that they were turning it down.
"If that's their decision, God forbid, then tell us early please and put us out of our misery."

<s******>

Oh if it were that easy we would :greengrin

[ScottB]

I saw on facebook that apparently Greene is going to sign Gatusso.

Honestly, makes the blood boil. 1. The sheer ARROGANCE to be talking about spending a no doubt vast amount of money before they've even finished trying to screw their creditors. 2. The sheer stupidity of the fans that will lap that up without questioning anything. 3. That if true, they seem to exist in some dream world where Rangers are an SPL team next season able to sign all the players they like.


I'm firmly in the 'they need to die' camp now, I don't even want to see them in SFL3!

[CropleyWasGod]

I saw on facebook that apparently Greene is going to sign Gatusso.

Honestly, makes the blood boil. 1. The sheer ARROGANCE to be talking about spending a no doubt vast amount of money before they've even finished trying to screw their creditors. 2. The sheer stupidity of the fans that will lap that up without questioning anything. 3. That if true, they seem to exist in some dream world where Rangers are an SPL team next season able to sign all the players they like.


I'm firmly in the 'they need to die' camp now, I don't even want to see them in SFL3!

With respect to whoever posted that, I wouldn't get your info from Facebook. Greene himself, today, seems to be moving towards accepting the signing embargo.

[steakbake]

With respect to whoever posted that, I wouldn't get your info from Facebook. Greene himself, today, seems to be moving towards accepting the signing embargo.

It's too late for that now, I'd say...

[johnbc70]

With respect to whoever posted that, I wouldn't get your info from Facebook. Greene himself, today, seems to be moving towards accepting the signing embargo.

His agent did apparently come to Scotland to start talks about a move.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/rangers/2012/06/08/rino-gattuso-has-spoken-with-rangers-boss-ally-mccoist-is-desperate-to-rejoin-club-says-agent-86908-23890267/

"D’Amico arrived in Scotland yesterday to kick off talks with Rangers and was met by an Ibrox official at Edinburgh Airport before being driven to Glasgow for discussions with prospective owner Charles Green and director of football administration Andrew Dickson."

[CropleyWasGod]

His agent did apparently come to Scotland to start talks about a move.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/rangers/2012/06/08/rino-gattuso-has-spoken-with-rangers-boss-ally-mccoist-is-desperate-to-rejoin-club-says-agent-86908-23890267/

"D’Amico arrived in Scotland yesterday to kick off talks with Rangers and was met by an Ibrox official at Edinburgh Airport before being driven to Glasgow for discussions with prospective owner Charles Green and director of football administration Andrew Dickson."

Okay, I stand corrected on the Gattuso thing.

However, as I said (yesterday?), McCoist et al still have to go through the motions of preparing for next season, in the hope (or assumption?) that they will be in the SPL and allowed to sign players. If they didn't, and they were back to business as usual, they would be criticised by their fans for not being properly prepared.

On Gattuso, and presumably others, they would probably have an agreement whereby they will sign if..... etc etc.

[Jack]

Green could be playing this as he may now the Transfer ban was 'best' they could get...but by doing things his ways he moves blame when he gets his way of having to see big wage earners walk and not be able to spend to replace....

(so thats cash in and ...oh dear cant spend any) :wink:

IIRC one, or some, of his investors were only there to buy and sell players. It could be why some have down a runner.

[Jack]

His agent did apparently come to Scotland to start talks about a move.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/rangers/2012/06/08/rino-gattuso-has-spoken-with-rangers-boss-ally-mccoist-is-desperate-to-rejoin-club-says-agent-86908-23890267/

"D’Amico arrived in Scotland yesterday to kick off talks with Rangers and was met by an Ibrox official at Edinburgh Airport before being driven to Glasgow for discussions with prospective owner Charles Green and director of football administration Andrew Dickson."

He's probably coming to Hibs. Is that not what happens these days. They bring them in from all over and we snatch the player from under their noses.

[jgl07]

I saw on facebook that apparently Greene is going to sign Gatusso.


Are you sure that it wasn't Gathuessi?

[JeMeSouviens]

It's too late for that now, I'd say...

Nah, the SFA would bite his hand off and FIFA would be happy. They accepted the Swiss FA punishing Sion only with regards to playing the 6 illegal players. There were no further punishments for using civil courts.

[Colr]

Green could be playing this as he may now the Transfer ban was 'best' they could get...but by doing things his ways he moves blame when he gets his way of having to see big wage earners walk and not be able to spend to replace....

(so thats cash in and ...oh dear cant spend any) :wink:

IF, and its a big IF, he is not a carpet bagger. Getting hold of the club for next to nowt everyone else getting the blame, getting bumped down to Div 3 gives him a great return over 4/5 years as they return to the SPL and regain a prominent position - as they will over time. Hopefully, Scottish football will be more competitive in the long run and the national team and Scottish European performances will be better.

Football should view this as a well needed enema.

[CropleyWasGod]

IF, and its a big IF, he is not a carpet bagger. Getting hold of the club for next to nowt everyone else getting the blame, getting bumped down to Div 3 gives him a great return over 4/5 years as they return to the SPL and regain a prominent position - as they will over time. Hopefully, Scottish football will be more competitive in the long run and the national team and Scottish European performances will be better.

Football should view this as a well needed enema.

:agree:

This is the Hearts model I have been trying to convince Jambos of for a few years. Medium-term gold-mine.

[Jim44]

According to the Mail Online, dodgy but with quotes from Gatusso, Green has offered him a basic £12k + add-ons per week contract. Gatusso is happy with terms but says the CVA must be successful. Contradicting this, reports say Green now says they might accept the signing embargo.

[snooky]

Nah... you're giving these plonkers far too much credit. They've messed up BIG TIME and only now realise that they've dug themselves into a hole that even the slippery huns cannot slither out of. Expulsion now awaits, along with the demise of the CVA & Greene's buy out plan. Having escaped proper punishment and pissed off everyone (HMRC, Ticketus, creditors, SFA/SPL, and all the other SPL clubs, the rest will then deny NewHun direct entry into the SPL. HMRC will insist on all their assets being sold on the open market, D&P will be prosecuted for collusion, deception and crimes against Scotland, Ally will flee to his beloved Engerlund to live with Sue as an exile, there will be a Parliamentary Enquiry into the cosy relationship between der Hun and the Scottish media with subsequent prosecutions for undeclared financial benefits, abuse of power and Chick Young. Murray will be stripped of his knighthood, Celtic will get sick of winning the SPL watched by home crowds of 8000 and return to Ireland. And in the year 2021, Hibernian FC will triumph winning the domestic Treble (for the 2nd year running) filling Easter Road for the first time ever :greengrin

You heard it here first.

I was with you right up till you said we would win the Scottish in 2021 - aye, right. You took it too far.

[stokesmessiah]

According to the Mail Online, dodgy but with quotes from Gatusso, Green has offered him a basic £12k + add-ons per week contract. Gatusso is happy with terms but says the CVA must be successful. Contradicting this, reports say Green now says they might accept the signing embargo.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2156693/Rino-Gattuso-threat-quit-Rangers.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

I hope that every creditor sees this.

I also hope RFC dies.

[blackpoolhibs]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2156693/Rino-Gattuso-threat-quit-Rangers.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

I hope that every creditor sees this.

I also hope RFC dies.

Yip, **** you, once we have stitched everyone up its back to normal. :grr:

[snooky]

Okay, I stand corrected on the Gattuso thing.

However, as I said (yesterday?), McCoist et al still have to go through the motions of preparing for next season, in the hope (or assumption?) that they will be in the SPL and allowed to sign players. If they didn't, and they were back to business as usual, they would be criticised by their fans for not being properly prepared.

On Gattuso, and presumably others, they would probably have an agreement whereby they will sign if..... etc etc.

C'mon Rod make Gattuso an offer, sign Whitty on a free and we could play them in midfield with Claros.

[calmac12000]

With respect to whoever posted that, I wouldn't get your info from Facebook. Greene himself, today, seems to be moving towards accepting the signing embargo.

That#s awfully nice of him!

[DH1875]

If we start next season and they are signing the likes of Gattuso on 12k a week and in the SPL, then it really will be all over for me :boo hoo:.
On the plus side, there will be a free ST up for grabs on here.

[StevieC]

Nah, the SFA would bite his hand off and FIFA would be happy. They accepted the Swiss FA punishing Sion only with regards to playing the 6 illegal players. There were no further punishments for using civil courts.

But the SFA have already publicly stated that they will obey the law of the land and refer the case back where it will utilise one of the punishments open to them.
To backtrack on that now would be a major public humiliation.

[SteveHFC]

THE taxman has brought in a top finance firm to LIQUIDATE Rangers if Charles Green fails in his bid to save the club.



Read more: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4361023/Taxman-to-axeman.html#ixzz1xFNiOxIy

[CropleyWasGod]

THE taxman has brought in a top finance firm to LIQUIDATE Rangers if Charles Green fails in his bid to save the club.



Read more: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4361023/Taxman-to-axeman.html#ixzz1xFNiOxIy


The Sun gets its stories from Hibs .net :wink:

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

I love the picture :-)

[lapsedhibee]

I love the picture :-)

Pic is good but the caption's a bit odd. "The taxman has drawn up worrying plan for ground's sale."

How is the plan worrying? Does it go about snapping at the heels of sheep? More like glorious plan. :agree:

[HH81]

When do they vote on the cva?

[grunt]

Thursday

[Jack]

THE taxman has brought in a top finance firm to LIQUIDATE Rangers if Charles Green fails in his bid to save the club.



Read more: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4361023/Taxman-to-axeman.html#ixzz1xFNiOxIy


If HMRC were going to accept the CVA then there would be no point in lining up anyone to liquidate them.

I see this as a clear indication of what's going to happen on Thursday.

Yipeeeeeeeeeeee

[CropleyWasGod]

If HMRC were going to accept the CVA then there would be no point in lining up anyone to liquidate them.

I see this as a clear indication of what's going to happen on Thursday.

Yipeeeeeeeeeeee

Not quite, although I share your optimism. It's a procedural thing.

The original D&P proposal to creditors suggested that D&P would be liquidators in that event. That was amended, after consultation with creditors, to BDO, who are HMRC's preference.

[down-the-slope]

IF, and its a big IF, he is not a carpet bagger. Getting hold of the club for next to nowt everyone else getting the blame, getting bumped down to Div 3 gives him a great return over 4/5 years as they return to the SPL and regain a prominent position - as they will over time. Hopefully, Scottish football will be more competitive in the long run and the national team and Scottish European performances will be better.

Football should view this as a well needed enema.

:agree: Exactly...but has to be seen to be trying and maintaining things...but cutting costs while maintaining income is the real business in such deals. The plan will partly be predicated on the assumption that Bears will renew on mass at same price as last year to watch a poorer or even U19 Team with a couple of over age players who are duff and can't get a move to better .....thats why King has stepped into mix publicly again...he knows that ST renewals are key to 'scam' working....or it being screwed...there is no investment only recycling of fans money (maybe they really are trying to be Green)

[BarneyK]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/09/rangers-in-crisis-charles-green-claims-creditors-meeting-will-be-the-biggest-day-in-the-club-s-history-86908-23891458/

From the Record, in an "interview" with Chuckie Green -
It means nothing to Green other than that will be the time he has to raise a further £20m although he said last night that because of the players and staff who have left, Rangers are close to breaking even already.

How much were Wylde and Celik on exactly? :eek:

[Moulin Yarns]

If HMRC were going to accept the CVA then there would be no point in lining up anyone to liquidate them.

I see this as a clear indication of what's going to happen on Thursday.

Yipeeeeeeeeeeee

I'm seeing a scenario where HMRC release the outcome of the 'big tax case' on Wednesday afternoon so that the creditors have time to digest the information that their 9p in the pound has suddenly become 0.9p in the pound before the meeting and vote on the CVA on Thursday.

:greengrin

[Leithenhibby]

If HMRC were going to accept the CVA then there would be no point in lining up anyone to liquidate them.

I see this as a clear indication of what's going to happen on Thursday.

Yipeeeeeeeeeeee

:greengrin I hope so ... :pray:


Not quite, although I share your optimism. It's a procedural thing.

The original D&P proposal to creditors suggested that D&P would be liquidators in that event. That was amended, after consultation with creditors, to BDO, who are HMRC's preference.


Come on CWG, you need to give us more time to savour the good part in this thread. :na na:

[greenginger]

I'm seeing a scenario where HMRC release the outcome of the 'big tax case' on Wednesday afternoon so that the creditors have time to digest the information that their 9p in the pound has suddenly become 0.9p in the pound before the meeting and vote on the CVA on Thursday.

:greengrin


Do creditors actually turn up and vote at these meetings or is the votes done in advance by post ?

Would'nt like to vote for the liquidisor with some of the Bears sitting behind me.

[lapsedhibee]

Do creditors actually turn up and vote at these meetings or is the votes done in advance by post ?

Would'nt like to vote for the liquidisor with some of the Bears sitting behind me.

What could they do? Spit, throw cups of pish on you? :agree:

[Brando7]

Do creditors actually turn up and vote at these meetings or is the votes done in advance by post ?

Would'nt like to vote for the liquidisor with some of the Bears sitting behind me.

The meeting of creditors of the Company will be held at 10am on 14 June 2012 at Ibrox Stadium.

[StevieC]

Not quite, although I share your optimism. It's a procedural thing.

The original D&P proposal to creditors suggested that D&P would be liquidators in that event. That was amended, after consultation with creditors, to BDO, who are HMRC's preference.

Do you think that it's the HMRC ensuring that the ridiculous clause, for the sale of ALL assets to Green for £5.5m, doesn't go through?

I still get the impression that no-one really expects a CVA to be accepted, and Green/Whyte/D&P are all working behind the scenes to try and get a pre-packed NewCo straight back into the SPL with no debt.

[stokesmessiah]

This whole situation with Rangers has been a bit of a rollercoaster from start to finish, one minute i think they are dead the next they seem to be making some progress, I don't know why but i do now have a feeling that this CVA is going to get accepted at the vote.

Edit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18378555

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you think that it's the HMRC ensuring that the ridiculous clause, for the sale of ALL assets to Green for £5.5m, doesn't go through?

.

There is still doubt about that, Stevie. Cav has pointed out that the document doesn't mention ALL assets, ie that the properties are not included. We don't know whether it's a typo or deliberate.

At the moment, I think HMRC are covering all eventualities by having BDO potentially involved.

[CropleyWasGod]

The meeting of creditors of the Company will be held at 10am on 14 June 2012 at Ibrox Stadium.

Most of the votes will be cast by post.

[down-the-slope]

Most of the votes will be cast by post.

Thats if the Loyal postal service manages to get them through....:rolleyes:

[calmac12000]

This whole situation with Rangers has been a bit of a rollercoaster from start to finish, one minute i think they are dead the next they seem to be making some progress, I don't know why but i do now have a feeling that this CVA is going to get accepted at the vote.

Edit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18378555

As I ehought from day one of this saga, liquidation ys the only realistic outcome. Barring any political interference the CVA will be rejected by HMRC. Particularly, when the Department supposedly is under pressure to deal with tax avoidance, it is highly unlikely to seek a sweetheart deal with Rangers which would do little or nothing pour encourage les autres. This is the objective relity of the situation which will not change simply because a bunch of Hun's wish it to.

[down-the-slope]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/09/rangers-in-crisis-charles-green-claims-creditors-meeting-will-be-the-biggest-day-in-the-club-s-history-86908-23891458/

From the Record, in an "interview" with Chuckie Green -
It means nothing to Green other than that will be the time he has to raise a further £20m although he said last night that because of the players and staff who have left, Rangers are close to breaking even already.How much were Wylde and Celik on exactly? :eek:

That is simply guff...you can only know that when you have figures for incom AND expenditure...as their income is in no way garunteed ST sales may flop...will they even be in SPL let alone getting the sweet 15% or 17% TV split for being in top 2 etc...talk of increasing sponsorship :whistle: yup great untainted brand....

so its more wish & pind

[Just Alf]

That is simply guff...you can only know that when you have figures for incom AND expenditure...as their income is in no way garunteed ST sales may flop...will they even be in SPL let alone getting the sweet 15% or 17% TV split for being in top 2 etc...talk of increasing sponsorship :whistle: yup great untainted brand....

so its more wish & pind

Agree 100%

Tho I'm sure I saw on the SPL site 1 & 2 get summat like 26 and 24% ..... No wonder it's almost always a 2 horse race.

What's really really really hacking me off Is that in that article they (green) are STILL going on about being
"strong enough to compete for the championship and a place in the Champions League"

What's wrong with a

Sorry we f'd up, we'll take what's coming and show you all how strong we really are as we fight our way back to the SPL

Christ, the rest of us have to cut our cloth to suit our income, and that doesn't mean just expecting to be regularly in the CL etc

Sigh... Rant over, not even had a beer yet .... Off to sort that right now (and moan at a couple of my bluenose mates)

[down-the-slope]

Agree 100%

Tho I'm sure I saw on the SPL site 1 & 2 get summat like 26 and 24% ..... No wonder it's almost always a 2 horse race.

What's really really really hacking me off Is that in that article they (green) are STILL going on about being
"strong enough to compete for the championship and a place in the Champions League"

What's wrong with a

Sorry we f'd up, we'll take what's coming and show you all how strong we really are as we fight our way back to the SPL

Christ, the rest of us have to cut our cloth to suit our income, and that doesn't mean just expecting to be regularly in the CL etc

Sigh... Rant over, not even had a beer yet .... Off to sort that right now (and moan at a couple of my bluenose mates)

Yes & No there is 48% split evenly among all 12 clubs with the remaining 52% split between them based on finishing position with the top 2 heavily favoured..

Anyhow...none of it or any of it is income they can rely on for the coming years running costs

[Brando7]

more news :greengrin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18379821

[down-the-slope]

more news :greengrin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18379821


:thumbsup: Long live the King...reduces CVA chances and makes Liquidation more likely

[Jim44]

Most of the posts here refer to a potentially unsuccessful CVA. What makes Doncaster think it will be accepted? Does he know something nobody else knows or is it just wishful thinking on his part?

[steakbake]

Most of the posts here refer to a potentially unsuccessful CVA. What makes Doncaster think it will be accepted? Does he know something nobody else knows or is it just wishful thinking on his part?

CVA means Doncaster doesn't have to do anything or preside over any decisions. He's shown himself as completely lacking as a leader in all of this process. Woefully out of his depth. His nightmare scenario is liquidation because then he'll probably have to do something and much of that will be out of his control. Once this is over, he should be given his jotters.

[Kaiser1962]

Agree 100%

Tho I'm sure I saw on the SPL site 1 & 2 get summat like 26 and 24% ..... No wonder it's almost always a 2 horse race



While it is loaded onto the first two places TV is not the factor for the OF that some would have you believe. In 2010 TV money only accounted for just over 3% of Celtic's income but boosted Dundee United's income by over 20%, who finished one place below them in the league and won the scottish Cup.

[down-the-slope]

Most of the posts here refer to a potentially unsuccessful CVA. What makes Doncaster think it will be accepted? Does he know something nobody else knows or is it just wishful thinking on his part?

I dont think he does..hes is just responding the way he must as head of a membership organisation in not speculating about something that has not happened to one of the members....

No desicions (although its really about application of membership rules) until new circumstances arise...the creditors vote will move things on.....hopefully with a NO

[HibbyRod]

So much going on, and I have lost track of when the panel are re-convening to decide the punishment for Rangers? ...... Anyone?:confused:

[grunt]

So much going on, and I have lost track of when the panel are re-convening to decide the punishment for Rangers? ...... Anyone?:confused:It's not been announced.

[grunt]

If Rangers fans buy season tickets this coming week, does the money go into the pot for the creditors?
And if not, why not?

[stokesmessiah]

If Rangers fans buy season tickets this coming week, does the money go into the pot for the creditors?
And if not, why not?

Nope, has been pretty wide spread in the media over the last couple of days. Big Chas reckons it goes into a separate account until next season and "wont be used to fund the purchase". These are all words which i am sure will cheer the creditors to their plight.

[grunt]

Big Chas reckons it goes into a separate account until next season and "wont be used to fund the purchase". Yes I've heard this, but I'm not talking about the season ticket money funding the purchase - that would imply that it went to Green for him to buy Rangers from the administrators. I'm not talking about that. I want to know, if Rangers (In Administration) receive income from fans through advance sales of season tickets, why isn't that money available to the creditors? I'm talking myself out of it here, as I guess the argument would be along the lines that the ST money is purchasing tickets for a future event - but then again, isn't that the argument used by D&P as to why Ticketus are just an ordinary creditor? I'm confused - nothing in this seems to operate like a normal administration...

[stokesmessiah]

Yes I've heard this, but I'm not talking about the season ticket money funding the purchase - that would imply that it went to Green for him to buy Rangers from the administrators. I'm not talking about that. I want to know, if Rangers (In Administration) receive income from fans through advance sales of season tickets, why isn't that money available to the creditors? I'm talking myself out of it here, as I guess the argument would be along the lines that the ST money is purchasing tickets for a future event - but then again, isn't that the argument used by D&P as to why Ticketus are just an ordinary creditor? I'm confused - nothing in this seems to operate like a normal administration...

Like you i would love to know the answer to this. As i pointed out the only reference that has been made to the season ticket money was as i pointed out that its going to be ring fenced for next season.

I like you am really confused about the whole situation, i have had an awful feeling the last few days that this CVA is going to get passed, however, i am really confused by the noises coming out of Ibrox as all the stuff in the press of late which as a creditor would make me press the no button.

[jgl07]

I think that Dave King is spot on with his assertion that the Green Knights are using season ticket income to buy the club. They are trying to pull off a Craig Whyte style three card trick.

[HibeeSince85]

So according to the Sky Sports News app they are in discussions to bring Gattuso back, yep, seriously :greengrin

[Jim44]

I dont think he does..hes is just responding the way he must as head of a membership organisation in not speculating about something that has not happened to one of the members....

No desicions (although its really about application of membership rules) until new circumstances arise...the creditors vote will move things on.....hopefully with a NO

Other people here have given the same response but I don't buy it. Doncaster said that Rangers had put forward their CVA proposal and that as such, the SPL were not anticipating an application for a newco into the SPL. That, by the same token, to me, means that he/ the SPL were not anticipating the failure of the CVA proposal and that it would be successful. Am I the only one, along with Doncaster who thinks the CVA will be accepted? I hope you are all correct, please let me be wrong,

[joe breezy]

Other people here have given the same response but I don't buy it. Doncaster said that Rangers had put forward their CVA proposal and that as such, the SPL were not anticipating an application for a newco into the SPL. That, by the same token, to me, means that he/ the SPL were not anticipating the failure of the CVA proposal and that it would be successful. Am I the only one, along with Doncaster who thinks the CVA will be accepted? I hope you are all correct, please let me be wrong,

You're probably wrong

There's a lot of paranoia around peoples thinking, understandable given the hun past

It's not Chic Young & Jim Traynor making the big decisions

[EuanH78]

So according to the Sky Sports News app they are in discussions to bring Gattuso back, yep, seriously :greengrin

At 12.5K a week. Imagine you are a creditor and have been offered 9p in the pound (probably less) and switch on SSN to see that.

Still, I suppose thats the kind of PR own goal you might expect after D & P have paid off the 30+ strong PR staff to save costs eh? Wait...what?

:tee hee: :lolrangers:

Hunbelievable arrogance and stupidity

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder if the smaller criditors will be able to write off cva losses against tax?
.

Yes, it's a Bad Debt, and they will get relief for both VAT and Income/Corporation Tax.

[Just Alf]

That is simply guff...you can only know that when you have figures for incom AND expenditure...as their income is in no way garunteed ST sales may flop...will they even be in SPL let alone getting the sweet 15% or 17% TV split for being in top 2 etc...talk of increasing sponsorship :whistle: yup great untainted brand....

so its more wish & pind

Back from pub :banana:

was still bothering me :rolleyes:

and found this.... DTS, yer spot on with the 17 & 15 ......

------------------------------
1st – 17%
2nd – 15%
3rd – 9.5%
4th – 8.5%
5th – 8%
6th – 7.5%
7th – 7%
8th – 6.5%
9th – 6%
10th – 5.5%
11th – 5%
12th – 4.5%
--------------------------------------
http://pitchmick.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/5-things-which-make-the-spl-a-farce/

Almost worth another thread.... still a big jump between 2nd and 3rd, from 3rd down it's a 0.5% difference ????? there's got to be a better way?.... what about turning it upside down?......

Anyways .... off to bed TTFN

:flag:

[ehf]

Other people here have given the same response but I don't buy it. Doncaster said that Rangers had put forward their CVA proposal and that as such, the SPL were not anticipating an application for a newco into the SPL. That, by the same token, to me, means that he/ the SPL were not anticipating the failure of the CVA proposal and that it would be successful. Am I the only one, along with Doncaster who thinks the CVA will be accepted? I hope you are all correct, please let me be wrong,

The CVA is a total fantasy: nobody wants it to be accepted, including Green, Duff and Plelps, the SFA and the SPL. In fac, the Big Tax Case makes it impossible.

[grunt]

Rangers law blogger, who I have quoted on many an occasion, is himself in the news.
He responds to the article in the comments.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/ten-year-ban-for-solicitor-who-failed-to-pass-on-scottish-miners-compensation-1-2347470

[shagpile]

http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?ct2=uk%2F1_0_s_12_1_a&sa=t&usg=AFQjCNGAW65aPLfdF30ruOELjBMJbxPIow&cid=17594042088537&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyrecord.co.uk%2F2012%2F06 %2F10%2Frangers-in-crisis-charles-green-tells-rangers-fans-they-can-sack-him-if-they-don-t-like-his-new-regime-86908-23892622%2F&ei=k0XUT9DfD8ew8gO17AE&rt=SECTION&vm=STANDARD&bvm=section&did=2052863925260010655&sid=top-stories


Buy the shares eh Charlie? Fur a pound is it? If the huns believe this guy ,they deserve him.:greengrin They deserve him anyway.:thumbsup:

[shagpile]

Rangers law blogger, who I have quoted on many an occasion, is himself in the news.
He responds to the article in the comments.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/ten-year-ban-for-solicitor-who-failed-to-pass-on-scottish-miners-compensation-1-2347470


Some pretty poor reporting by The Hootsmon. McConville is quite right to issue the statement, for though he has obviously failed in his duty as a representative to [some of] these people, the sanctions he received are totally different to what is being reported in the Scotsman.

[Just Alf]

Some pretty poor reporting by The Hootsmon. McConville is quite right to issue the statement, for though he has obviously failed in his duty as a representative to [some of] these people, the sanctions he received are totally different to what is being reported in the Scotsman.

I also notice he apologises for the mistakes he did make ... Unlike a certain other group I could mention

[greenginger]

It was'nt me , honest says Campbell Ogilvie.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/interview-campbell-ogilvie-sfa-president-1-2347933


It is a pity the interviewer had'nt concluded with the following question.

" So you left Rangers in 2005 and turned up at the PBS, and Hearts are now subject to HMRC investigations, see a patern ? "

[McSwanky]

Has anyone heard what the general consensus in the Rangers support is re King v Green? Are they going yo but season tickets or not? Or better still, are they likely to split into 2 camps?

[Part/Time Supporter]

So much going on, and I have lost track of when the panel are re-convening to decide the punishment for Rangers? ...... Anyone?:confused:

The SFA can't do anything until Rangers decide whether they are going to appeal against Lord Glennie's ruling in the court of session. Rangers appear to be stringing that one out as long as they can. They have until 19 June (21 days after the ruling) to decide, which means the earliest a tribunal would sit is late June.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/06/10/scottish-football-facing-fixture-chaos-with-rangers-future-uncertain-86908-23892607/

[grunt]

I don't understand. (Nothing new there.) Rangers won the case at the Court of Session.
Why would they appeal?

Or is it that they might appeal the Judge's recommendation of sending the decision back to the Appeal Tribunal?

This story has more twists and turns than a box of snakes.

[Seveno]

In an interview in today's SoS, Campbell Ogilvie states that he took an EBT himself and took payment of 3 bonuses and part of his settlement through the EBT. These are not loans but payment for services or in lieu of services. They would also be taxable.

Ooops, Mr Ogilvie, it seems like you have dropped a 'Doddsy" on your former employers.

[down-the-slope]

Crucial week...SPL fixtures due out next Monday...if Rangers CVA fails no way will they manage that...

Then its potentialy an SPL vote for a newco...not sure how much notice an EGM requires....

Then there is the potential of disrepute case being remitted to the very independent panel, which if it found that suspension / expulsion was merited then NewCo could not even try for the SFL3 option......(ST's not worth a lot in that senario)


I think if CVA fails Rangers will ask for origional punishment to stand to ensure they have licence to play somewhere...Green has already said some of his fantasy investors will do walking away in this case (if you can walk away before having really arrived)

If CVA is agreed the the 21 day cooling off period will cause more uncertainty as creditors can change mind so even if SPL rush out fixtures they could not be fully confirmed until after this & the disrepute case is settled...to say nothing of BTC & SPL double contract investigations..

Ticketas have been very very quiet since BK's fell out the picture - can't beleive anyone thinks they are not going to fight for their (investors of theirs who will demand it) corner ...unless more deals have been struck...

[Caversham Green]

If Rangers fans buy season tickets this coming week, does the money go into the pot for the creditors?
And if not, why not?

The CVA describes ST income as an 'Excluded Asset' which means it won't go into the creditors pot. It's fair enough really because the money is primarily to finance the forthcoming season.

On the other hand, also included in Excluded Assets are transfer fees for players sold after 12 May - not at all fair since those players were financed by the funds that creditors are now being stiffed for - and SPL money - from the season past, again financed by the creditors.

The document proposes that all these funds should be ring-fenced in a solicitor's account because "they are required to be utilised by the Company for the purpose of continued trading of the Company." i.e. needed for future working capital.

[EuanH78]

The CVA describes ST income as an 'Excluded Asset' which means it won't go into the creditors pot. It's fair enough really because the money is primarily to finance the forthcoming season.

On the other hand, also included in Excluded Assets are transfer fees for players sold after 12 May - not at all fair since those players were financed by the funds that creditors are now being stiffed for - and SPL money - from the season past, again financed by the creditors.

The document proposes that all these funds should be ring-fenced in a solicitor's account because "they are required to be utilised by the Company for the purpose of continued trading of the Company." i.e. needed for future working capital.

I thought this was not the admins primary concern? That statement should read "they are required to be utilised by the Company for the purpose of continued trading at a level which the Company deems suitable (for itself) after this sorry mess is resolved" - Utter bull****.

Edit: Another question. If the CVA fails, does the season ticket money gathered (personally I would be wary about renewing if I was a Hun) go into the liquidation pot or is that attempting to be 'ring fenced' away from that and further how would that even be legal or possible?

[ScottB]

In an interview in today's SoS, Campbell Ogilvie states that he took an EBT himself and took payment of 3 bonuses and part of his settlement through the EBT. These are not loans but payment for services or in lieu of services. They would also be taxable.

Ooops, Mr Ogilvie, it seems like you have dropped a 'Doddsy" on your former employers.

You would imagine him to be a bit smarter than Dodds...

I suspect he sees the writing on the wall, so is now suddenly all too happy to tell 'the truth' in an effort to keep his current comfy job and no doubt substantial salary.

In a way, that he's doing this suggests this issue is going to blow up in Rangers' collective face shortly...

[Caversham Green]

I thought this was not the admins primary concern? That statement should read "they are required to be utilised by the Company for the purpose of continued trading at a level which the Company deems suitable (for itself) after this sorry mess is resolved" - Utter bull****.

Edit: Another question. If the CVA fails, does the season ticket money gathered (personally I would be wary about renewing if I was a Hun) go into the liquidation pot or is that attempting to be 'ring fenced' away from that and further how would that even be legal or possible?

As far as I can see the proposal doesn't say what happens to the ST money if the CVA fails, but if newco is formed I would inagine the ST rights would transfer over and the cash probably would as well. If no newco is formed (or if they are suspended) I assume the ST money would have to be refunded to the mugs.

[Hibbyradge]

As far as I can see the proposal doesn't say what happens to the ST money if the CVA fails, but if newco is formed I would inagine the ST rights would transfer over and the cash probably would as well. If no newco is formed (or if they are suspended) I assume the ST money would have to be refunded to the mugs.

At 9p in the £.

[poolman]

It was'nt me , honest says Campbell Ogilvie.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/interview-campbell-ogilvie-sfa-president-1-2347933


It is a pity the interviewer had'nt concluded with the following question.

" So you left Rangers in 2005 and turned up at the PBS, and Hearts are now subject to HMRC investigations, see a patern ? "



http://i46.tinypic.com/nlv6e1.jpg

[Caversham Green]

You would imagine him to be a bit smarter than Dodds...

I suspect he sees the writing on the wall, so is now suddenly all too happy to tell 'the truth' in an effort to keep his current comfy job and no doubt substantial salary.

In a way, that he's doing this suggests this issue is going to blow up in Rangers' collective face shortly...

He has previously admitted to receiving those payments quite some time ago - three bonuses of £5,000 and severance pay of £80,000. I can't see that any of those properly fall under EBT provisions.

He's very cagey in that interview as well -

Q: Can you see there being an issue with you being SFA president at a time when there is an ongoing SPL investigation into non-disclosure of payments at Rangers that you are directly linked to? You were a director and the secretary who signed off the accounts in November 2001. At that time the EBT scheme was in operation and players were receiving payments that weren’t in their contracts.

A: you're right, I was a director and secretary.

Plus the old 'I didn't know' defence. As a director he was duty-bound to know - that's what he was paid for.

[Caversham Green]

At 9p in the £.

It should be, but it would be the full whack - it doesn't fall into the CVA pot.

[EuanH78]

He has previously admitted to receiving those payments quite some time ago - three bonuses of £5,000 and severance pay of £80,000. I can't see that any of those properly fall under EBT provisions.

He's very cagey in that interview as well -

Q: Can you see there being an issue with you being SFA president at a time when there is an ongoing SPL investigation into non-disclosure of payments at Rangers that you are directly linked to? You were a director and the secretary who signed off the accounts in November 2001. At that time the EBT scheme was in operation and players were receiving payments that weren’t in their contracts.

A: you're right, I was a director and secretary.

Plus the old 'I didn't know' defence. As a director he was duty-bound to know - that's what he was paid for.

Are directors receiving money from EBT 'loans' not just about a legal use of the EBT though? Sure that it could be argued that it was just about kosher in those circumstances.

Either way CO's position is compromised and he should be asked to resign if he does not have the decency to do it himself.

[Caversham Green]

Are directors receiving money from EBT 'loans' not just about a legal use of the EBT though? Sure that it could be argued that it was just about kosher in those circumstances.

Either way CO's position is compromised and he should be asked to resign if he does not have the decency to do it himself.

Not really. An EBT payment is a discretionary loan that is requested by the employee and approved by the trustees, who are independent of the employer, and is not a reward for employment services. I can't see that Ogilvie's £95k satisfies any of those criteria.

[Kaiser1962]

Are directors receiving money from EBT 'loans' not just about a legal use of the EBT though? Sure that it could be argued that it was just about kosher in those circumstances.

Either way CO's position is compromised and he should be asked to resign if he does not have the decency to do it himself.

As it was a "loan" we could always ask CO, given his position of prominence within the SFA, what provisions he has made for this "loan" to be repaid which would add legitamacy to Rangers procedures, and clarify the issue of legality. If there are none then, to all intents and purposes, it does not qualify as a loan and is therefore either a gift or a payment for services rendered or anticipated. It would not fit any known descrpitors as a loan. IMO.

[VickMackie]

As it was a "loan" we could always ask CO, given his position of prominence within the SFA, what provisions he has made for this "loan" to be repaid which would add legitamacy to Rangers procedures, and clarify the issue of legality. If there are none then, to all intents and purposes, it does not qualify as a loan and is therefore either a gift or a payment for services rendered or anticipated. It would not fit any known descrpitors as a loan. IMO.

Exactly.

Why has no one asks any of these people to repay their loans?

Rangers are in heavy debt, can the trustee not ask for the money to be repaid.

Oh, I know why. Because the players and other beneficiaries will pull out their second contracts and put the final nail in Rangers coffin.

[Eyrie]

The loans were made by the EBT which is a separate entity to Rangers. Even if the loans were repaid immediately (which would defeat the whole point of them), the creditors wouldn't see a penny.

[grunt]

The BBC is our national broadcaster; a position which brings responsibilities for fair reporting.
So why do they publish this rubbish?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Rangers could attempt to sign new players before the club is officially out of administration.

Charles Green is aiming to have a Company Voluntary Arrangement approved on Thursday, after which there is a 28-day cooling-off period.
But SPL rules state that, with board approval, clubs in administration may replace players whose contracts expire.
"If you are correct, that is an avenue open to the club," Green told BBC Scotland on Sunday.
Rule 6.20 of the Scottish Premier League's regulations makes provision for signings being made in special circumstances by clubs who have suffered an insolvency event.
While there is no guarantee the SPL board would approve any signings, with several players' contracts expiring, that could allow Rangers to use the rule to bring replacements in.
If the CVA is approved, which is still the subject of dubiety, the cooling-off period would take Rangers to mid-July.
The club had been banned from signing players for 12 months by a Scottish Football Association-appointed Judicial Panel, a decision upheld by an Appellate Tribunal but subsequently set aside by the Court of Session.
The Appellate Tribunal must now decide what punishment to administer.

In the meantime, Green has confirmed he had told a supporters' meeting on Wednesday that he has a list of 19 target players drawn up, five of whom are involved at Euro 2012.
And he says he has added £1.5m to the budget Ally McCoist and the administrators Duff & Phelps had been working to for next season.
Green had also been examining the possibility, if Thursday's creditors' vote goes in favour of a CVA, of setting aside the 28-day cooling-off period, to allow a swifter exit from administration.
But lawyers have advised that even if the two main creditors - HMRC and Ticketus - had been willing to agree to that, it would not be possible because other creditors had to be allowed the right to raise objections in that period and only a judge can bring the period of administration to an end.
Of the money raised so far (£5.5m is lodged with the lawyers Taylor Wessing, as confirmed by Simon Shipperley of Duff and Phelps at the fans' meeting), £2m has come from Singaporean investors, £2m from another major investor, with the remainder split.
Having closed the initial round of funding with £10m raised, Green says he will entertain a second round of investment with a maximum of £4m per investor.

Green also referred to a £10m stadium-naming deal with "an airline investor or alternative".
"I've been speaking to a number of people, some of whom are connected to our investors, some not," he added.
"I've said all along, stadium-naming is an emotive issue, but whatever we do it would always be Ibrox Stadium."


As for the bit in bold - he clearly doesn't quite grasp what a stadium naming deal entails.

[stokesmessiah]

The BBC is our national broadcaster; a position which brings responsibilities for fair reporting.
So why do they publish this rubbish?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


As for the bit in bold - he clearly doesn't quite grasp what a stadium naming deal entails.

That made me laugh also.

Could you imagine sitting in a meeting with Green about investing 10m to own the stadium name rights to the next day reading him say even if we rename it it will always be Ibrox.

[HibbyDave]

I assume that shop at Ipox is still trading? If so, where does the cash go? wages for staff? into creditor pot (since the stock was bouht with csh from creditors)?
Also, I noticed that they have been making arrangements for overseas pe-season tours/freindlies etc.....how are they paying the bills for these trips?

[stokesmessiah]

The BBC is our national broadcaster; a position which brings responsibilities for fair reporting.
So why do they publish this rubbish?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


As for the bit in bold - he clearly doesn't quite grasp what a stadium naming deal entails.

Does anyone else think that these press releases that have been coming out over the last few days are intentionally designed to turn the creditors against the CVA???

[grunt]

The only creditors that matter from a CVA perspective are HMRC and Ticketus.
I would hope they are not swayed one way or the other by bs news conferences by Green.

[Skol]

Is it not Ibrox Park rather than Stadium ?

I just dont get how there can be a planned warchest for next season and all this planned income generation while they are paying current creditors pennies. Its just not cricket.

[Kaiser1962]

The loans were made by the EBT which is a separate entity to Rangers. Even if the loans were repaid immediately (which would defeat the whole point of them), the creditors wouldn't see a penny.


But you would guess that the money that has been used to fund the EBT has been accounted for somewhere in the process? Our accountants even want receipts for a packet of tea bags out the petty cash, which itself has to balance or hellfire and damnation will follow. But is that not the whole point of "accounts"? There must be a paper trail either in the form of an expenditure/cost to MIM or Der Hun, and must therefore be reflected as both income AND an expenditure for the EBT trust which should have to file accounts in its home country, if its anywhere in the civilised world that is.

All this money surely cant move about without someone recording it somewhere, or attracting the attention of the authorities at either source or destination? If not then "money laundering" immediately springs to mind.

[Dr Jimmy]

The only creditors that matter from a CVA perspective are HMRC and Ticketus.
I would hope they are not swayed one way or the other by bs news conferences by Green.

On Friday, I was speaking to someone high up in HMRC and although he is not involved with Rangers cases he said HMRC will never accept the CVA.
He also said they will be going full out on the EBT case.

Not my words, but someone high up in HMRC.

[Terrymac]

Ogilvie admits “might have signed some documents” (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9510)Posted on 10 June, 2012 (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9510) by Paul67 (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?author=2)
49 (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9510#comments)
Campbell Ogilvie was interviewed in today’s Scotland on Sunday (http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/interview-campbell-ogilvie-sfa-president-1-2347933) but he singularly failed to deflect the central criticism of him continuing as president of the SFA despite being a director of Rangers during the period they introduced the controversial EBTs and, allegedly, illegally registered players with the SFA, which Ogilvie was also a director of.
Interviewer, Andrew Smith, asked “Can you see there being an issue with you being SFA president at a time when there is an ongoing SPL investigation into non-disclosure of payments at Rangers that you are directly linked to? You were a director and the secretary who signed off the accounts in November 2001. At that time the EBT scheme was in operation and players were receiving payments that weren’t in their contracts.”
Ogilvie’s response laid bare how inappropriate the situation is: “I was secretary up until 2002. That’s correct. I was a director, that’s correct.”
All he could do in response to the question of how inappropriate his job as SFA president is when Rangers are under investigation for non-disclosure of payments he was “directly linked to” is confirm he was a secretary and director. He didn’t even offer a counter argument.
It was as though he’d been coached, badly, about what to do when you are asked a question you don’t want to answer. Simply not answering the question and making an irrelevant statement treats Scottish football fans like fools.
The truth is he did not and cannot answer the question. If Campbell Ogilvie cannot argue why there is not an issue for him continuing to be SFA president, why is he still SFA president?
Ogilvie confirmed that in March he told Andrew Smith that there were no side contracts and insisted this was “the case to the best of my knowledge”, despite Smith referring him to the recent BBC documentary, the assertions of which have not been challenged.
Readers would have been confused by this ‘knowledge’, that there were no side contracts as Ogilvie immediately denied involvement with player contracts.
This duel position, bearing witness that there were no side contracts, while denying knowledge of player contracts, is wholly inconsistent and, in itself, reasons enough to for his dismissal.
One of the most intriguing comments from Ogilvie was “I might have signed some documents from time to time. I certainly didn’t do the player negotiations, I didn’t do the contracts.”
He “might have signed some documents from time to time”. Oh dear.
If he signed some documents active in this scandal “from time to time”, for pity sake, just go. Pack your bags, apologise profusely and get out of Scottish football.
We await to hear who conducted the inquiry into Ogilvie which allowed Stewart Regan to clear Ogivlie, but if this shoddy testimony informed their decision, the scandal at the heart of the SFA has taken on a new dimension.
Rumours that the SFA did not conduct an inquiry into Campbell Ogilvie and that chief exec, Stewart Regan, spoke inappropriately in order to save the skin of his pal, remain unfounded.
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[Capt Mainwaring]

So he was on the Board at Rangers and either didnt understand what was going on or he didn't do his job and ask.

He was the company secretary at Rangers and signed off the accounts containing information on the EBTs that he wasn't aware of and also didn't ask or query. He even had his own snout in the trough with his own EBT.

He's either an incompetent fool or guilty of negligence and failed spectacularly in his duties as a Board member.

So where is he now - President of the Scottish Football Association who are investigating the crimes of the past Rangers regimes in which he played a key role!!!!

You really could not make it up!

[snooky]

So he was on the Board at Rangers and either didnt understand what was going on or he didn't do his job and ask.

He was the company secretary at Rangers and signed off the accounts containing information on the EBTs that he wasn't aware of and also didn't ask or query. He even had his own snout in the trough with his own EBT.

He's either an incompetent fool or guilty of negligence and failed spectacularly in his duties as a Board member.

So where is he now - President of the Scottish Football Association who are investigating the crimes of the past Rangers regimes in which he played a key role!!!!

You really could not make it up!

:worms: -> :worms: etc.......

[Onion]

He has previously admitted to receiving those payments quite some time ago - three bonuses of £5,000 and severance pay of £80,000. I can't see that any of those properly fall under EBT provisions.

He's very cagey in that interview as well -

Q: Can you see there being an issue with you being SFA president at a time when there is an ongoing SPL investigation into non-disclosure of payments at Rangers that you are directly linked to? You were a director and the secretary who signed off the accounts in November 2001. At that time the EBT scheme was in operation and players were receiving payments that weren’t in their contracts.

A: you're right, I was a director and secretary.

Plus the old 'I didn't know' defence. As a director he was duty-bound to know - that's what he was paid for.

My thoughts exactly. He was LEGALLY duty bound to know and as a Director carries full responsibility for the decisions and actions of the company. The fact that he's offered this as a defence proves he's not fit to be a Director let alone Chairman of any company.

[Onion]

So he was on the Board at Rangers and either didnt understand what was going on or he didn't do his job and ask.

He was the company secretary at Rangers and signed off the accounts containing information on the EBTs that he wasn't aware of and also didn't ask or query. He even had his own snout in the trough with his own EBT.

He's either an incompetent fool or guilty of negligence and failed spectacularly in his duties as a Board member.

So where is he now - President of the Scottish Football Association who are investigating the crimes of the past Rangers regimes in which he played a key role!!!!

You really could not make it up!

:agree: this.

[Eyrie]

But you would guess that the money that has been used to fund the EBT has been accounted for somewhere in the process? Our accountants even want receipts for a packet of tea bags out the petty cash, which itself has to balance or hellfire and damnation will follow. But is that not the whole point of "accounts"? There must be a paper trail either in the form of an expenditure/cost to MIM or Der Hun, and must therefore be reflected as both income AND an expenditure for the EBT trust which should have to file accounts in its home country, if its anywhere in the civilised world that is.

All this money surely cant move about without someone recording it somewhere, or attracting the attention of the authorities at either source or destination? If not then "money laundering" immediately springs to mind.

It was accounted for as an expense in the Huns accounts every time they paid money into the EBT.

Fair point though about the EBT's own accounts. Are the loans to players/directors/managers/Blackburn employees still shown as assets, or have these been written off as irrecoverable?

[Cropley10]

Not really. An EBT payment is a discretionary loan that is requested by the employee and approved by the trustees, who are independent of the employer, and is not a reward for employment services. I can't see that Ogilvie's £95k satisfies any of those criteria.

:agree: Not so much put his foot in it, more blown it clean off...

[Cropley10]

:agree: this.

He's also acknowledged as being one of the game's 'finest administrators'. Yet he signed important paperwork 'blind'.

[calmac12000]

He's also acknowledged as being one of the game's 'finest administrators'. Yet he signed important paperwork 'blind'.

Tells you alll you need to know about the standard of football's administration in this country!

[seanshow]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024

Green looking to buy players now? This guy is unbelievable! He reminds me of this chap...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/seanshow/20030425007100510.jpg

Carry on as normal nothing to see here :greengrin

[Seveno]

Tells you alll you need to know about the standard of football's administration in this country!

I'd like to get a hold of his cheque book.

' Just sign here, Campbell. It's okay, you don't need to know'. :cb

[hibs0666]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024

Green looking to buy players now? This guy is unbelievable! He reminds me of this chap...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/seanshow/20030425007100510.jpg

Carry on as normal nothing to see here :greengrin

He can't sign players whilst in administration without the permission of the SPL. He's grandstanding and the more he grandstands the more he looks like Del Boy.

[PatHead]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024

Green looking to buy players now? This guy is unbelievable! He reminds me of this chap...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/seanshow/20030425007100510.jpg

Carry on as normal nothing to see here :greengrin

Will endear him to other chairman when he comes begging for his newco to get into spl.

[seanshow]

...and following it up I really liked this post from the RTC blog regarding the Bbc sport pages.





BBC website SPL team by team headlines

ABERDEEN – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

CELTIC – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

DUNDEE UNITED – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

DUNFERMLINE – Dunfermline add three new faces

HEART OF MIDLOTHIAN – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

HIBERNIAN – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

INVERNESS CALEDONIAN THISTLE – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

KILMARNOCK – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

MOTHERWELL – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

RANGERS – Rangers could make early signings

ST JOHNSTONE – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

ST MIRREN – SFA investigates clubs’ finances

:greengrin pmsl


Mucho credit to the chap who posted it.

[Onion]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024

Green looking to buy players now? This guy is unbelievable! He reminds me of this chap...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/seanshow/20030425007100510.jpg

Carry on as normal nothing to see here :greengrin

:agree: just PR puff from Greene who needs to appeal to the Ibrox knuckle draggers who need reasons to but STs. In saying that, it I really hope HMRC, the teams that RFC owe money to, and other creditors are reading this :furious: Not long to wait now :titanic:

[Lungo--Drom]

Dave, I was asking myself that very same question. It doesn't make sense to the ordinary man on the street. Some of the finance experts here on .net could probably give some good suggestions or answers. All I can offer is:

> Rangers Fighting Fund?

> faceless but rich pro-RFC benefactors

> foolish traders (no offence meant) giving credit terms for purchases such as merchandise for shop, travel and accommodation for friendly matches etc.

The Ipox clubstore staff are probably getting paid out the money taken for selling stuff in the shop which in itself is probably not getting paid for, i.e. merchandise obtained on credit, then sold to pay staff wages? I don't really know just trying to think of some logical suggestions.

Maybe there's a big dungeon several hundred feet below the admin building where the hierarchy at RFC go down to wearing dark as night blue cloaks and consort with the Devil and he gives them big wads of cash to keep going? ;)


I assume that shop at Ipox is still trading? If so, where does the cash go? wages for staff? into creditor pot (since the stock was bouht with csh from creditors)?
Also, I noticed that they have been making arrangements for overseas pe-season tours/freindlies etc.....how are they paying the bills for these trips?

[Jim44]

The big tax case seems to be dragging on for ever. If the CVA is accepted or if it is not and a newco is established, what are the implications of the case going against Rangers?

[Ozyhibby]

The big tax case seems to be dragging on for ever. If the CVA is accepted or if it is not and a newco is established, what are the implications of the case going against Rangers?

If a new club is established there are no implications at all regarding any money owed by the old club. Which is why we are relying on the sporting authorities to deal with them properly. The pressure must be kept on Petrie, the SPL and the SFA.

[Niffy]

Absolutely rediculous... offering business's they shafted 9p for every pound they owe them , then they turn up and say "look who we're wanting to sign & pay big wages to..."

Hope they get binned even more now.

[Hibs07p]

I think the HMRC is going to screw Rangers to the wall, and they will get two chances to do it. If the CVA fails they are liquidated, and the big tax case is finished. If they survive the CVA and keep their history, the big tax case comes into play, and Hector goes after them again. I think the tax man is covering all bases for any eventuality. To be honest, I think Rangers (Green) would prefer liquidation as well, to get rid of the BTC. I hope they do survive the CVA, only for Hector to serve them with a BTC bill the day after. They then have to agree a payment plan of £5M a year to pay of the tax debt, leaving them seriously weakened for the see-able future. The end game is nigh.

GGTTH

[JeMeSouviens]

I assume that shop at Ipox is still trading? If so, where does the cash go? wages for staff? into creditor pot (since the stock was bouht with csh from creditors)?
Also, I noticed that they have been making arrangements for overseas pe-season tours/freindlies etc.....how are they paying the bills for these trips?

Huns don't own their shops (warning link contains traces of Hun):

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/the_jjb_deal_dissected_from_necessity_to_calamity_ 458723/index.shtml

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the HMRC is going to screw Rangers to the wall, and they will get two chances to do it. If the CVA fails they are liquidated, and the big tax case is finished. If they survive the CVA and keep their history, the big tax case comes into play, and Hector goes after them again. I think the tax man is covering all bases for any eventuality. To be honest, I think Rangers (Green) would prefer liquidation as well, to get rid of the BTC. I hope they do survive the CVA, only for Hector to serve them with a BTC bill the day after. They then have to agree a payment plan of £5M a year to pay of the tax debt, leaving them seriously weakened for the see-able future. The end game is nigh.

GGTTH

BTC is included (at least the original amount + interest and possibly an estimate of the penalties). The bill has been served and although the Hun appeal result is not known, HMRC have a claim in for it.

[Jim44]

I think the HMRC is going to screw Rangers to the wall, and they will get two chances to do it. If the CVA fails they are liquidated, and the big tax case is finished. If they survive the CVA and keep their history, the big tax case comes into play, and Hector goes after them again. I think the tax man is covering all bases for any eventuality. To be honest, I think Rangers (Green) would prefer liquidation as well, to get rid of the BTC. I hope they do survive the CVA, only for Hector to serve them with a BTC bill the day after. They then have to agree a payment plan of £5M a year to pay of the tax debt, leaving them seriously weakened for the see-able future. The end game is nigh.

GGTTH

By this logic therefore it is in HMRC' s financial interests to accept the CVA. Why is then that most people think it won't be accepted?

[Sylar]

The BBC is our national broadcaster; a position which brings responsibilities for fair reporting.
So why do they publish this rubbish?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18385024?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


As for the bit in bold - he clearly doesn't quite grasp what a stadium naming deal entails.

I can see the point he's making with the stadium renaming to be fair.

Newcastle fans still call St James' Park, St James' Park, despite the investment and new name.

Livingston's Almondvale has changed names a few times (West Lothian Courier Stadium, Braidwood Motor Company Stadium) but most people still call it Almondvale.

[JeMeSouviens]

The big tax case seems to be dragging on for ever. If the CVA is accepted or if it is not and a newco is established, what are the implications of the case going against Rangers?

It has almost no practical implication. HMRC already have a large enough debt to block the CVA on their own. The only difference it makes is to how shafted the other creditors are because HMRC will claim a larger percentage of the paltry pot. If a New Club purchases the Hun assets then the BTC debt is nothing to do with them, Guv.

[JeMeSouviens]

By this logic therefore it is in HMRC' s financial interests to accept the CVA. Why is then that most people think it won't be accepted?

Because the message to all other football clubs is: "don't worry about paying us, you can throw us buttons in a few years time". A million or 2 now is pretty much neither here nor there in the grand scheme.

[Sylar]

I was speaking to someone through the weekend who claimed that this week will see the end of them as a club.

HMRC aren't willing to accept a CVA, as it'll accept a precedent for every other company in the UK to wiggle out of such future instances of financial oblivion.

He also told me that the assets will be liquidated separately and not as a package, so individual developers can take Murray Park, the car park or Ibrox individually.

His credential is that he used to be one of Scotland's chief tax inspectors, though is now retired. He's also a Celtic fan.

He claimed to know the name of the company who would undertake the liquidation but suddenly wasn't in a sharing mood when pressed.

Possibly all nothing more than hot air or nothing new but I felt I'd share with the group :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

By this logic therefore it is in HMRC' s financial interests to accept the CVA. Why is then that most people think it won't be accepted?

HMRC aren't only concerned with the financial aspect, they're very keen that taxpayers abide by the rules. They have a set of criteria for accepting CVAs and this one fails most of them. On top of that the CVA proposal is half-arsed - it can't state how much in the £ creditors will get and there's a large number of creditors that haven't even been quantified. On top of that it seeks to remove certain assets from the CVA fund that rightfully should be in there and suggests that the total gross value of the assets in liquidation is less than £4.6m.

The very best HMRC can hope for with a CVA is an unquantified share of £5m - that's chicken feed to them, and IMO they would much prefer to show that they will come down hard on those who break the rules (and those who operate sub-standard administrations) and to test those liquidation values - that's why they've lined up BDO as liquidators.

[Hibs07p]

BTC is included (at least the original amount + interest and possibly an estimate of the penalties). The bill has been served and although the Hun appeal result is not known, HMRC have a claim in for it.

My apologies, I thought the BTC was outstanding.


By this logic therefore it is in HMRC' s financial interests to accept the CVA. Why is then that most people think it won't be accepted?

That would only have been relevant if Hector was still waiting to pounce with the BTC.

[JeMeSouviens]

I was speaking to someone through the weekend who claimed that this week will see the end of them as a club.

HMRC aren't willing to accept a CVA, as it'll accept a precedent for every other company in the UK to wiggle out of such future instances of financial oblivion.

He also told me that the assets will be liquidated separately and not as a package, so individual developers can take Murray Park, the car park or Ibrox individually.

His credential is that he used to be one of Scotland's chief tax inspectors, though is now retired. He's also a Celtic fan.

He claimed to know the name of the company who would undertake the liquidation but suddenly wasn't in a sharing mood when pressed.

Possibly all nothing more than hot air or nothing new but I felt I'd share with the group :greengrin

Do keep up, old chap. :wink:

http://www.bdo.uk.com/find-a-partner/malcolm-cohen

[Sylar]

Do keep up, old chap. :wink:

http://www.bdo.uk.com/find-a-partner/malcolm-cohen

I couldn't be bothered trawling through to see if it had been touched on already, but thank ye :greengrin

[Andy74]

Surely this guy telling everyone how much money Rangers will have in a few months time is just very badly misjudged at this time?

Creditors will be paying attention no doubt and I would hope the SPL clubs are taking note in the event they are asked to let any new club back in.

[stokesmessiah]

Surely this guy telling everyone how much money Rangers will have in a few months time is just very badly misjudged at this time?

Creditors will be paying attention no doubt and I would hope the SPL clubs are taking note in the event they are asked to let any new club back in.

Andy, i have said this a few times, IMO i think it is a deliberate and calculated ploy.


Charles Green wants the CVA to fail as much as you or i do.

If i were a creditor and was reading some of the recent press i would be fuming, i even noticed on the BBC gossip today that they have a list of potential targets 5 of which are currently playing at the Euro's.

[BarneyK]

Andy, i have said this a few times, IMO i think it is a deliberate and calculated ploy.


Charles Green wants the CVA to fail as much as you or i do.

If i were a creditor and was reading some of the recent press i would be fuming, i even noticed on the BBC gossip today that they have a list of potential targets 5 of which are currently playing at the Euro's.

He may not want the CVA, but judging by the comments of the formerly supportive (to the Newco cause) Steven Thomson last week, they are playing a very dangerous game. They are winding up the the other clubs and their vote for a reintroduction into the SPL suddenly looks far from assured.

[PatHead]

He may not want the CVA, but judging by the comments of the formerly supportive (to the Newco cause) Steven Thomson last week, they are playing a very dangerous game. They are winding up the the other clubs and their vote for a reintroduction into the SPL suddenly looks far from assured.

If you look closely at what Steven Thompson says he doesn't actually say that Rangers Newco won't be accepted into SPL. He says ""It wouldn't be just a simple yes or no vote, they'd have to negotiate their way back in again, that might not be easy for them."- In short, they can get back in but on our terms.

I still believe a Rangers of sorts will be in the SPL next season. Doncaster is being far too quiet for my liking as are his apologists in the BBC and media regarding Rangers newco and the SPL..

[BarneyK]

If you look closely at what Steven Thompson says he doesn't actually say that Rangers Newco won't be accepted into SPL. He says ""It wouldn't be just a simple yes or no vote, they'd have to negotiate their way back in again, that might not be easy for them."- In short, they can get back in but on our terms.

I still believe a Rangers of sorts will be in the SPL next season. Doncaster is being far too quiet for my liking as are his apologists in the BBC and media regarding Rangers newco and the SPL..

Of course he doesn't say definitively one way or another, but it's a seismic shift from his previous standpoint that they would have to be voted back in.

[sadtom]

Like a lot of people on here i'm not to hot on the legalities of der huns financial jiggery-pokery and i'm thankful of the imput fron those who do have a better understanding.
From what i gather, no matter what happens it looks like the cheats are going to avoid paying up to or in excess of 100 million quid which is disgusting.
Part ofme thinks they should be allowed to continue to operate only on the proviso that this debt is serviced even if it takes 20 years to recoup their dues. This would see them having to operate on a playing budget similar to that of the poorest clubs in the league.
The other point that i'd love soneone to shed light on is the case of the 10 mill plus of recent tax (paye) that they deliberately withheld in the last year or so.
I was led to believe that it was a criminal act to deliberately not pay ongoing costs if there is evidence that the intention was to go into administration/liquidation/cva all along.
Could Whyte be charged and potentially jailed for this specific crime?

[Caversham Green]

Andy, i have said this a few times, IMO i think it is a deliberate and calculated ploy.


Charles Green wants the CVA to fail as much as you or i do.

If i were a creditor and was reading some of the recent press i would be fuming, i even noticed on the BBC gossip today that they have a list of potential targets 5 of which are currently playing at the Euro's.

I think he's trying to convince the hard of thinking huns that RFC will be in the SPL next season so they'll buy season tickets. RFC holding thousands of fans ST money would arguably put pressure on the SFA not to suspend them if the CVA is accepted and on the SPL to admit a newco if it fails.

It does alienate a lot of people, but I think they're really at the nothing to lose stage now.

[CropleyWasGod]

Like a lot of people on here i'm not to hot on the legalities of der huns financial jiggery-pokery and i'm thankful of the imput fron those who do have a better understanding.
From what i gather, no matter what happens it looks like the cheats are going to avoid paying up to or in excess of 100 million quid which is disgusting.
Part ofme thinks they should be allowed to continue to operate only on the proviso that this debt is serviced even if it takes 20 years to recoup their dues. This would see them having to operate on a playing budget similar to that of the poorest clubs in the league.
The other point that i'd love soneone to shed light on is the case of the 10 mill plus of recent tax (paye) that they deliberately withheld in the last year or so.
I was led to believe that it was a criminal act to deliberately not pay ongoing costs if there is evidence that the intention was to go into administration/liquidation/cva all along.
Could Whyte be charged and potentially jailed for this specific crime?

Defrauding HMRC is indeed criminal. It would be difficult, though, to prove. On the face of things, RFC were in financial difficulties; the first people to suffer in those circumstances are the Revenue. They would plead lack of money rather than anything more sinister, and that's the way it looks to me as well.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Defrauding HMRC is indeed criminal. It would be difficult, though, to prove. On the face of things, RFC were in financial difficulties; the first people to suffer in those circumstances are the Revenue. They would plead lack of money rather than anything more sinister, and that's the way it looks to me as well.

The SFA investigation uncovered emails from Whyte saying that he was refusing to pay taxes to "gain leverage" in negotiations with HMRC over the big tax case.

[Caversham Green]

Like a lot of people on here i'm not to hot on the legalities of der huns financial jiggery-pokery and i'm thankful of the imput fron those who do have a better understanding.
From what i gather, no matter what happens it looks like the cheats are going to avoid paying up to or in excess of 100 million quid which is disgusting.
Part ofme thinks they should be allowed to continue to operate only on the proviso that this debt is serviced even if it takes 20 years to recoup their dues. This would see them having to operate on a playing budget similar to that of the poorest clubs in the league.
The other point that i'd love soneone to shed light on is the case of the 10 mill plus of recent tax (paye) that they deliberately withheld in the last year or so.
I was led to believe that it was a criminal act to deliberately not pay ongoing costs if there is evidence that the intention was to go into administration/liquidation/cva all along.
Could Whyte be charged and potentially jailed for this specific crime?

You're thinking of the trading while insolvent rules. They're not actually criminal unless there's an element of fraud involved (it could be argued that the action itself is fraudulent, but that's not how the law sees it). The rules are that if directors incur debt when they are (or should be) aware that the company will not be able to pay it they can become personally liable for that debt. In Whyte's case HMRC and other creditors could in theory pursue him and the other directors for the amounts they've lost in the administration/liquidation process if they can prove that RFC was insolvent at the time the debts were incurred. There's unlikely to be a criminal case though.

[CropleyWasGod]

The SFA investigation uncovered emails from Whyte saying that he was refusing to pay taxes to "gain leverage" in negotiations with HMRC over the big tax case.

Not sure that that is "fraud", though. It's dodgy behaviour that would not please HMRC, for sure, whilst others would argue it's commercial sense in terms of a negotiating tool. Fraud, though? Don't think so...

[jgl07]

Not sure that that is "fraud", though. It's dodgy behaviour that would not please HMRC, for sure, whilst others would argue it's commercial sense in terms of a negotiating tool. Fraud, though? Don't think so...

Are you saying that deliberate non payment of VAT and NI contributions is not fraud?

It is not a "can't pay" but a "won't pay" situation.

[Seveno]

HMRC are probably going to get two shots at killing them off.

If they vote against the CVA this week then the likelihood is that liquidation follows. If the CVA goes through, then the second chance will come along with the BTC

Once the First Tier Tribunal comes to a decision on the BTC, and it will surely find in favour of HMRC, they have the next chance to kill them off. If this eventuality happens, then any money put in my Green will be lost.

Oh, I do envy Hector.

[CropleyWasGod]

Are you saying that deliberate non payment of VAT and NI contributions is not fraud?

It is not a "can't pay" but a "won't pay" situation.

I am saying that it would be difficult to prove that RFC set out with the intention of not paying HMRC. The document that was alluded to (which I haven't seen) might help in that, but it would have to be a strong case to prove fraud.

[CropleyWasGod]

HMRC are probably going to get two shots at killing them off.

If they vote against the CVA this week then the likelihood is that liquidation follows. If the CVA goes through, then the second chance will come along with the BTC

Once the First Tier Tribunal comes to a decision on the BTC, and it will surely find in favour of HMRC, they have the next chance to kill them off. If this eventuality happens, then any money put in my Green will be lost.

Oh, I do envy Hector.

The BTC is part of the CVA.

[Seveno]

The BTC is part of the CVA.

Sure about that ? I thought that D&P had only put forward a sum of £55m or thereabouts as total debt.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sure about that ? I thought that D&P had only put forward a sum of £55m or thereabouts as total debt.

As I recall, it was a TBC, with no amunt shown.

It has to be part of the CVA, though, as HMRC have made an assessment on RFC.

[Seveno]

As I recall, it was a TBC, with no amunt shown.

It has to be part of the CVA, though, as HMRC have made an assessment on RFC.

HMRC still get two shots though, kill them now or wait till the result of the BTC. So stop being so f**ing pedantic. :na na:

[jgl07]

HMRC still get two shots though, kill them now or wait till the result of the BTC. So stop being so f**ing pedantic. :na na:

HMRC get one chance to kill off Rangers. By voting no to the CVA on Thursday.

If they do not veto the CVA the only impact that the resolution of the BTC will have is to change the amount in the pound received.

[CropleyWasGod]

HMRC still get two shots though, kill them now or wait till the result of the BTC. So stop being so f**ing pedantic. :na na:

I'm missing your point. It's Monday...:greengrin

If HMRC accept the CVA, the BTC becomes irrelevant. RFC live on.

If they don't accept it, then it's toast-time... maybe.

What have I missed?

[Seveno]

I'm missing your point. It's Monday...:greengrin

If HMRC accept the CVA, the BTC becomes irrelevant. RFC live on.

If they don't accept it, then it's toast-time... maybe.

What have I missed?

Okay, I'm probably wrongly assuming that they can vote to accept 'as is' i.e. leaving the BTC aside until a decision has been announced by the FTT. If the BTC goes in their favour then the CVA is worth diddly squat.

This could happen during the cooling off period, when they could legitimately chamge their mind.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the CVA has no chance. Far more interesting question is can Green get his mitts on the assets for £5.5M or will any of the creditors step in to argue there is better value in a break up? Sadly I think Ticketus are focusing their recoup strategy on the bold Mr Whyte and I'm not convinced HMRC will do anything either given the likely small amounts involved either way.

Then it'll be onto the SPL transfer of share showdown (say that in a Sean Connery accent) or perhaps back to the SFA tribunal rematch first. Plenty of life in this one ... :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

uh-oh

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20120611/spl-announces-new-sponsor_2262950_2807965

World's worst Hibby and Barren Knight (that might still be sniffing around a Hun New Club) is Mr Weatherseal isn't he?

[Just Alf]

I think the CVA has no chance. Far more interesting question is can Green get his mitts on the assets for £5.5M or will any of the creditors step in to argue there is better value in a break up? Sadly I think Ticketus are focusing their recoup strategy on the bold Mr Whyte and I'm not convinced HMRC will do anything either given the likely small amounts involved either way.

Then it'll be onto the SPL transfer of share showdown (say that in a Sean Connery accent) or perhaps back to the SFA tribunal rematch first. Plenty of life in this one ... :wink:

It's this last bit, the transfer of share I can't quite get my head around.... If CVA fails why does the share HAVE to go to the folks that buy Ibrox etc?

Also of there's transfer embargoes (and the rest) do they apply to the licence, the club or the "holding company"?

In my dreams I can see them getting the licence revoked and handed to Dundee or someone and any newco being told to apply for entry to SFL3 as there's now a vacancy.... Oh well.... One can but hope!

[lapsedhibee]

I think he's trying to convince the hard of thinking huns that RFC will be in the SPL next season so they'll buy season tickets. RFC holding thousands of fans ST money would arguably put pressure on the SFA not to suspend them if the CVA is accepted and on the SPL to admit a newco if it fails.

It does alienate a lot of people, but I think they're really at the nothing to lose stage now.
Shirley the concept of sporting integrity (copyright 'tacheman :not worth) has gained sufficient hold now that this financial consideration would not prove decisive?


HMRC still get two shots though, kill them now or wait till the result of the BTC. So stop being so f**ing pedantic. :na na:
You've missed out an asteriks there. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

It's this last bit, the transfer of share I can't quite get my head around.... If CVA fails why does the share HAVE to go to the folks that buy Ibrox etc?

Also of there's transfer embargoes (and the rest) do they apply to the licence, the club or the "holding company"?

In my dreams I can see them getting the licence revoked and handed to Dundee or someone and any newco being told to apply for entry to SFL3 as there's now a vacancy.... Oh well.... One can but hope!

Because it makes life a lot easier for Doncaster! Seriously there's no reason. Once the CVA fails, it's not completely impossible that the BKs and the Green brigade could both attempt to start Hun New Clubs. That would be an entertaining twist. :wink:

If the SFA/SPL attempt to get away with a transfer of share to a New Club then I can't see how they can possibly do anything other than transfer any penalties with them but then again we are deep in Alice in Wonderland territory already so who knows?

[Jim44]

As I recall, it was a TBC, with no amunt shown.

It has to be part of the CVA, though, as HMRC have made an assessment on RFC.

OK, IC. :greengrin

[Just Alf]

Once the CVA fails, it's not completely impossible that the BKs and the Green brigade could both attempt to start Hun New Clubs. That would be an entertaining twist. :wink:


And this thread will probably triple it's post count! Lol

[CropleyWasGod]

OK, IC. :greengrin

GTF :na na:

[Dashing Bob S]

Because it makes life a lot easier for Doncaster! Seriously there's no reason. Once the CVA fails, it's not completely impossible that the BKs and the Green brigade could both attempt to start Hun New Clubs. That would be an entertaining twist. :wink:

If the SFA/SPL attempt to get away with a transfer of share to a New Club then I can't see how they can possibly do anything other than transfer any penalties with them but then again we are deep in Alice in Wonderland territory already so who knows?

That would be rather splendid! We could have one for the bigots and the other for the glory hunters. But it might be unfair on the 20,000 who proudly count themselves as both - which way would they split?

[jgl07]

Because it makes life a lot easier for Doncaster! Seriously there's no reason. Once the CVA fails, it's not completely impossible that the BKs and the Green brigade could both attempt to start Hun New Clubs. That would be an entertaining twist.

If the SFA/SPL attempt to get away with a transfer of share to a New Club then I can't see how they can possibly do anything other than transfer any penalties with them but then again we are deep in Alice in Wonderland territory already so who knows?

I think that opinion in the SPL has moved dramatically against Rangers following them taking the SFA to the Court of Session. I do not think we have heard the last of this issue from FIFA. If a more 'lenient' penalty is dolled out, I can see a Sion situation arising and Scottish Clubs being banned form Europe and Scotland kicked out of World Cup qualification.

I don't expect FIFA to see any difference between a Newco and the Oldco in these issues. If a Rangers Newco comes into the SPL via a share transfer and avoids the punishment they will take the same action.

It would really be fun if multiple Newcos for Rangers were set up by the Blue Knights, the Green Knights and the Knights who say Ng. This will be hilarious if they are all competing for the vacancy in SFL3!

[ballengeich]

uh-oh

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20120611/spl-announces-new-sponsor_2262950_2807965

World's worst Hibby and Barren Knight (that might still be sniffing around a Hun New Club) is Mr Weatherseal isn't he?

Makes sense. Plenty of panned-in windaes after Thursday perhaps. More after the SFA tribunal resits.

[Lungo--Drom]

Thanks for the link. I rubbed my palms with garlic before reading it to ward off evil spirits...
Actually it is possibly the most intelligent article I have ever read by a Hun. You can see even back in 2009 when it was written that th cracks were beginning to show. It says clearly that all Rangers retail activities were taken over by JJB so I assume then that the clubstore at Greyskull is also run by JJB even if it is still branded as purely Rangers, although as I never go there I can't confirm or deny that. It answers the question as to how the clubstore staff are getting paid anyway.


Huns don't own their shops (warning link contains traces of Hun):

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/the_jjb_deal_dissected_from_necessity_to_calamity_ 458723/index.shtml

[Lungo--Drom]

I remember about seven years ago at the height of the UVF / LVF fueding over in the Six Counties and I was cutting through the back streets of Belfast heading for the ferry (in the days when it was an easy walking distance) and I could hear the opposing Loyalist factions shooting at each other in the north of the city. I can just imagine something similar happening in Govan (hopefully minus the guns) if two separate Newco Hun teams were formed. It would not be any more far fetched than what has happened already :D


Because it makes life a lot easier for Doncaster! Seriously there's no reason. Once the CVA fails, it's not completely impossible that the BKs and the Green brigade could both attempt to start Hun New Clubs. That would be an entertaining twist. :wink:

[Spike Mandela]

All logic points to HMRC rejecting the CVA but my worry is the unseen political pressure in smoke filled back rooms being put on HMRC top brass probably with the occasional funny handshake.

I fear the worst.

[Onion]

All logic points to HMRC rejecting the CVA but my worry is the unseen political pressure in smoke filled back rooms being put on HMRC top brass probably with the occasional funny handshake.

I fear the worst.

Put it this way, if HMRC accept 9p in the pound from the Huns there will be public outcry - if not in dodgy Scotland then certainly down South. HMRC is essentially an English institution and the general taxpayers will not take kindly to any public body seemingly supporting a Scottish football club which has traded free of tax for 12 months. I can see Panorama waiting in the wings.

[jgl07]

Put it this way, if HMRC accept 9p in the pound from the Huns there will be public outcry - if not in dodgy Scotland then certainly down South. HMRC is essentially an English institution and the general taxpayers will not take kindly to any public body seemingly supporting a Scottish football club which has traded free of tax for 12 months. I can see Panorama waiting in the wings.

Very true. It will send out exactly the wrong message. The likes of Portsmouth and presumably Birmingham will be watching with interest.

However I understood that it will not be anything like 9 pence in the pound assuming that the BTC falls in favour of HMRC.

[PatHead]

Interesting Celtic perspective which feels Rangers will try to do a deal with "Gang of 10". Wouldn't it be great to stick it up them as well!!!!!!!

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9517&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[sadtom]

Defrauding HMRC is indeed criminal. It would be difficult, though, to prove. On the face of things, RFC were in financial difficulties; the first people to suffer in those circumstances are the Revenue. They would plead lack of money rather than anything more sinister, and that's the way it looks to me as well.

Cheers.
Yep, i guess proving what his 'intentions' were would be problematic.


You're thinking of the trading while insolvent rules. They're not actually criminal unless there's an element of fraud involved (it could be argued that the action itself is fraudulent, but that's not how the law sees it). The rules are that if directors incur debt when they are (or should be) aware that the company will not be able to pay it they can become personally liable for that debt. In Whyte's case HMRC and other creditors could in theory pursue him and the other directors for the amounts they've lost in the administration/liquidation process if they can prove that RFC was insolvent at the time the debts were incurred. There's unlikely to be a criminal case though.

Cheers.
I dont think i was mistaking it for 'trading while insolvent'.
It was something i heard or read quite early on in this saga. It seemed to suggest that it would be treated akin to the 'insolvency' rule. Though i was sure it indicated that if (paye) payments were withheld because the debtor 'planned' to enter administration further down the line then the debt could be treated 'differently' from the other debt (i.e. not included in the larger 'pot') and that (if proven) it was a criminal act to continue to actively run up debt when your 'plan' is to avoid the debt through administration/cva etc. Though, as noted, proof would appear to be difficult.
I honestly cant remember who, where or what was said exactly. Other than after hearing it, it led me to believe that a criminal charge would be possible.

Cheers again guys, keep up the good work.
I must confess, i still find the whole situation about as clear as Steve Fulton's skin.:wink:

[ancient hibee]

I take it that Mr.Green's remarks about the number of stars he is going to sign are to ensure that any waverers re the CVA get so enraged they will vote against.This will make sure he can go the Newco route.However this will not be as easy as he thinks-unless of course he will be quite happy if Rangers go to the SFL-he will then own the ground and sell the club to new purchasers charging them rent-clubs in the SFL don't have to own their grounds-so he will have the rent for 3 years-then he sells the ground to Rangers who will have to buy it to get into the SPL-trebles all round.

[Dr Jimmy]

Sorry if already mentioned, but I have heard that HMRC have their debt ring fenced. Therefore the current CVA does not relate to HMRC and this is being contested separately. Can this be right?

[MrSmith]

Interesting Celtic perspective which feels Rangers will try to do a deal with "Gang of 10". Wouldn't it be great to stick it up them as well!!!!!!!

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9517&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


Nope not an interesting perspective just another poor me victim status being rolled out by the paraniod green brigade!

[camhibby1]

I know no more than anyone else here about HMRC's intentions but the poster who mentioned that the outcry north of the border will be as loud down south makes a moot point. The balance of probability is that HMRC will hit hard for the simple reason that discussions are at an advanced stage for tax raising powers being moved from Westminster to Holyrood. This is why Salmond has been quiet since his infamous tapping up of HMRC at the beginning of the year. The whole country, whether we like it or not will be branded as being incapable of 'running its own affairs' if HMRC bend to the will of the crooked mob in the West and the political classes are seen to be party to it. We won't be trusted - it's because of this that HMRC has to get this one right. Hammer RFC big-time - if not it's good-bye for the time being to further autonomy over our own affairs and then we are a greater laughing stock than ever. Salmond will keep quiet - he does not want to be seen as a leader of a nation that cannot be trusted to run its own financial affairs by putting pressure on a government run department. By the way I think Campbell Ogilvie will be gone soon - his banal interview in the Scotsman was preparation for it.

[gerry70]

Nope not an interesting perspective just another poor me victim status being rolled out by the paraniod green brigade!

Completely agree. I had a look at that website and it proved a timely reminder of what a strange view of the world celtic fans have. Loads of quotes about "diddy teams" and as you say paranoia about teams like Hibs stealing their home gate revenue. They conveniently forget that they are the ones that have been doing joint sponsorship deals with Rangers all these years, they are the one who do the joint voting malarkey, and despite all their crowing about how brilliant Peter Lawell is - it's still not clear which way they would vote. I think it's more likely they would vote with their grubby partner. I'm proud to be a hibby when we are the only club in Scotland who have come out publicly and said we believe in sport.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry if already mentioned, but I have heard that HMRC have their debt ring fenced. Therefore the current CVA does not relate to HMRC and this is being contested separately. Can this be right?

Not right at all. :greengrin

[Hibs Class]

Put it this way, if HMRC accept 9p in the pound from the Huns there will be public outcry - if not in dodgy Scotland then certainly down South. HMRC is essentially an English institution and the general taxpayers will not take kindly to any public body seemingly supporting a Scottish football club which has traded free of tax for 12 months. I can see Panorama waiting in the wings.

HMRC isn't English, it's British. It's fair to say that most taxpayers are English but nonsense to suggest it is an English institution.

[Paisley Hibby]

Completely agree. I had a look at that website and it proved a timely reminder of what a strange view of the world celtic fans have. Loads of quotes about "diddy teams" and as you say paranoia about teams like Hibs stealing their home gate revenue. They conveniently forget that they are the ones that have been doing joint sponsorship deals with Rangers all these years, they are the one who do the joint voting malarkey, and despite all their crowing about how brilliant Peter Lawell is - it's still not clear which way they would vote. I think it's more likely they would vote with their grubby partner. I'm proud to be a hibby when we are the only club in Scotland who have come out publicly and said we believe in sport.

Absolutely correct. As has been said before many times - they are just one cheek of the same arse.

[Hibs Class]

Nope not an interesting perspective just another poor me victim status being rolled out by the paraniod green brigade!

Agree. Laughable that they are concerned that season ticket supporters would be inconvenienced by kick off times being moved for television. They are one of only two teams who seldom suffer changes to home kick off times.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

http://t.co/0i7oNTE6

So Weatherseal to sponsor the Spl

Is that the weatherseal that Kennedy (of Blue knights - the king makers fame) owned/owns?

Couldn't possibly be pulling some strings behind the scenes could he?

[Kojock]

Agree. Laughable that they are concerned that season ticket supporters would be inconvenienced by kick off times being moved for television. They are one of only two teams who seldom suffer changes to home kick off times.

Rantiic insisted that the only home OF games shown live would be the four OF games as they would lose too much money if their home KO times against anyone else were moved from 3pm Saturday.

You couldnt make it up

[Brando7]

As I recall, it was a TBC, with no amunt shown.

It has to be part of the CVA, though, as HMRC have made an assessment on RFC.

There 49 TBC on that list of creditors if u cherrypick 2 HMRC (£75m) & now King (£20m) it starts to mount up n the p in the £ drops even more, how u can agree to a CVA when the document has no written agreement to what you are agreeing to, if they do say yes than more fool them they deserve to get **** all

[BigKev]

Just a question that's been bugging me... If say HMRC or any other creditor never returned their CVA forms (in effect abstain) do they get included as a yes or no vote? And if you don't return it and it gets voted through anyway can you sue the club at a later date for the full amount?

[Onion]

HMRC isn't English, it's British. It's fair to say that most taxpayers are English but nonsense to suggest it is an English institution.

Erm, you're taking it too literally. The point is if Scotland had its own tax raising powers or own own Treasury as would be the case under independence, I think the outcome to the RFC problem would be very different. But glad you agree most taxpayers are English :wink:

[steakbake]

But glad you agree most taxpayers are English :wink:

An undeniable fact of demographics.

[joe breezy]

Erm, you're taking it too literally. The point is if Scotland had its own tax raising powers or own own Treasury as would be the case under independence, I think the outcome to the RFC problem would be very different. But glad you agree most taxpayers are English :wink:

Yes - this whole affair shows how iffy independence could be - Scottish politicians have wanted nothing but to preserve Rangers....

[ronaldo7]

Will the yams take a lead from Rapid Vienna?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-administration-rapid-vienna-planning-to-reject-cva-proposal-1-2350099

[matty_f]

Will the yams take a lead from Rapid Vienna?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-administration-rapid-vienna-planning-to-reject-cva-proposal-1-2350099

This is why a transfer embargo should be put in place. It's nonsense that a buying club should be able to sell on a player, keep the proceeds yet stiff the club they bought him from.

I detest Rangers.

[Newry Hibs]

So what's the timeline on / after Thursday vote?

Is there a 21 day cooling off period both ways of the CVA? If it is accepted I know there is, but what if it's a 'No'? Can the newsagent realise he's fed up repairing his windows and change his mind and accept the generous offer?

If there is no grace period for a 'No' - will anything happen on the Friday? I think Green / D&P may try and move quickly - Newco has probably been set up already. I suppose various court cases may drag things out.


If it's a Yes (and after 21 days) what happens?

[steakbake]

Yes - this whole affair shows how iffy independence could be - Scottish politicians have wanted nothing but to preserve Rangers....

I'm not sure of your reasoning there at all. This whole affair has happened during the Union and Scottish politicians.... have wanted nothing but to preserve Rangers.

Not that this has anything at all to do with the independence debate.

[johnrebus]

I'm not sure of your reasoning there at all. This whole affair has happened during the Union and Scottish politicians.... have wanted nothing but to preserve Rangers.

Not that this has anything at all to do with the independence debate.



And President Soapy will be desperate to keep it that way.

:greengrin

[stokesmessiah]

I'm not sure of your reasoning there at all. This whole affair has happened during the Union and Scottish politicians.... have wanted nothing but to preserve Rangers.

Not that this has anything at all to do with the independence debate.


I think your reading his response the wrong way it was a tongue in cheek comment towards Onion i think who somehow seemed to be linking the RFC case to a counter argument for independence for Scotland.

[steakbake]

And President Soapy will be desperate to keep it that way.

:greengrin

I'm not sure how the situation at Rangers really instructs us anything about the state of politics, in all honesty! Besides, I thought Salmond showed his hand when he was bleating on about Rangers being a significant part of Scottish society etc.

There's too much politics in football as it is, without this whole sorry affair being stretched into some kind of tenuous analogy about the state of the union, the arguments for or against independence and so on.

[Leithenhibby]

Will the yams take a lead from Rapid Vienna?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-administration-rapid-vienna-planning-to-reject-cva-proposal-1-2350099

You would hope so, after all we all want fairness in this mess :cb


Is there any truth in the 3rd comment in this article?


3
sonofcosmos
Tuesday, June 12, 2012 at 12:25 AM
#1 seems a story is breaking that duff and co didnt send the cva proposal to all creditors.

[BarneyK]

This is why a transfer embargo should be put in place. It's nonsense that a buying club should be able to sell on a player, keep the proceeds yet stiff the club they bought him from.

I detest Rangers.

They've a brass neck alright. An absolute scandal.

[BarneyK]

You would hope so, after all we all want fairness in this mess :cb


Is there any truth in the 3rd comment in this article?


3
sonofcosmos
Tuesday, June 12, 2012 at 12:25 AM
#1 seems a story is breaking that duff and co didnt send the cva proposal to all creditors.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before somewhere, though can't remember if it was on here or if it was the C4 dude?

[Caversham Green]

Just a question that's been bugging me... If say HMRC or any other creditor never returned their CVA forms (in effect abstain) do they get included as a yes or no vote? And if you don't return it and it gets voted through anyway can you sue the club at a later date for the full amount?

According to the proposal document "A resolution to approve the proposal or a modification is passed when a majority of three quarters or more (in value) of those present and voting in person or by proxy have voted in favour of it."

I read that as meaning an abstention doesn't count at all in the total, so if the total debt was £60m and HMRC held £20m of that, if they don't vote and everyone else does it needs the holders of £30m debt (60-20=40; 75% of 40=30) to vote yes.

If you receive the notice properly then I doubt if you'd be able to sue anyone after the event.

[Caversham Green]

Will the yams take a lead from Rapid Vienna?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-administration-rapid-vienna-planning-to-reject-cva-proposal-1-2350099

I suspect the yams will chase the money given their current circumstances. There's some provision for the SPL paying them out of RFC's prize money, but the legality of that is questionable and if they don't get it through that channel the money is effectively lost whichever way the CVA goes.

On that basis the yams will do everything they can to ensure there's a Rangers in the SPL next season, because there will almost certainly be less money in the league if RFC aren't there.

[Leithenhibby]

I suspect the yams will chase the money given their current circumstances. There's some provision for the SPL paying them out of RFC's prize money, but the legality of that is questionable and if they don't get it through that channel the money is effectively lost whichever way the CVA goes.

On that basis the yams will do everything they can to ensure there's a Rangers in the SPL next season, because there will almost certainly be less money in the league if RFC aren't there.


Your starting to sound like Doncaster! .. :greengrin

[Benny Brazil]

This is why a transfer embargo should be put in place. It's nonsense that a buying club should be able to sell on a player, keep the proceeds yet stiff the club they bought him from.

I detest Rangers.

Totally agree - that was the first thing that struck me when reading that. They really have no morals at all do they.

[Kaiser1962]

I suspect the yams will chase the money given their current circumstances. There's some provision for the SPL paying them out of RFC's prize money, but the legality of that is questionable and if they don't get it through that channel the money is effectively lost whichever way the CVA goes.

On that basis the yams will do everything they can to ensure there's a Rangers in the SPL next season, because there will almost certainly be less money in the league if RFC aren't there.

An analysis recently carried out suggested the financial loss to the SPL would be, worst case scenario, £5.76m with Celtic accounting for nearly half that total. Projections(worst case) showed no Rangers would mean a loss to Hibs of around £100k while Motherwell appeared to be the biggest losers at around £700k. These figures took no account of any increased attendances or potential revenue from a cup run.

There was a suggestion that it was easy for Hibs to state "sporting integrity" when they stood to be among the least affected by the demise of Der Hun but I would argue that the fact we are least affected, and more capable of standing independently, is no accident.

[ancienthibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18407309

p.s. make that Hector!!

[Leithenhibby]

An analysis recently carried out suggested the financial loss to the SPL would be, worst case scenario, £5.76m with Celtic accounting for nearly half that total. Projections(worst case) showed no Rangers would mean a loss to Hibs of around £100k while Motherwell appeared to be the biggest losers at around £700k. These figures took no account of any increased attendances or potential revenue from a cup run.

There was a suggestion that it was easy for Hibs to state "sporting integrity" when they stood to be among the least affected by the demise of Der Hun but I would argue that the fact we are least affected, and more capable of standing independently, is no accident.

I read that article also, and I'd agree 100% with the part in bold. We have suffered on the park because we have kept out house in order, were as Der Huns have blatantly spent money they don't/ never have had and never will and must now pay the price of "overspend" Just like the rest of us have to do! .......... :rolleyes:

[Leithenhibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18407309

p.s. make that Hector!!


Like the end part "more to follow" :pray:

[Kaiser1962]

I read that article also, and I'd agree 100% with the part in bold. We have suffered on the park because we have kept out house in order, were as Der Huns have blatantly spent money they don't/ never have had and never will and must now pay the price of "overspend" Just like the rest of us have to do! .......... :rolleyes:

Spot on :agree:

[bythecringe]

9 months from now I can see Hector being THE most popular name for baby boys in many parts of Scotland. Go Hector!

[Caversham Green]

Your starting to sound like Doncaster! .. :greengrin

Thank ****** I don't look like him.

Anyway, he pretty much says no RFC would kill the game, I'm just saying clubs would have less money - and the yams have to chase money more than most.


An analysis recently carried out suggested the financial loss to the SPL would be, worst case scenario, £5.76m with Celtic accounting for nearly half that total. Projections(worst case) showed no Rangers would mean a loss to Hibs of around £100k while Motherwell appeared to be the biggest losers at around £700k. These figures took no account of any increased attendances or potential revenue from a cup run.

There was a suggestion that it was easy for Hibs to state "sporting integrity" when they stood to be among the least affected by the demise of Der Hun but I would argue that the fact we are least affected, and more capable of standing independently, is no accident.

TBH I take these analyses with a pinch of salt, but I do agree that the absence of RFC would be nowhere near as devastating as some would have us believe.

With regard to Hibs, it's certainly no accident that we are less affected than some. Rod Petrie and the Hibs board have put a lot of hard work into ensuring that the club is financially viable and they've taken and continue to take a lot of abuse for their troubles. Seeing Rangers escape lightly from their self-inflicted problems would render all that pointless. I think that's why Rod's taking a hardline approach to this.