Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Seveno]

So which is it Ally, do you want to stay or go?

http://www.sportspromedia.com/notes_and_insights/mccoist_calls_for_rangers_and_celtic_to_quit_scott ish_premier_league/


What unbelievable hypocrisy.

Sorry, I'll correct that statement. What totally believable hypocrisy.

[ballengeich]

So which is it Ally, do you want to stay or go?

http://www.sportspromedia.com/notes_and_insights/mccoist_calls_for_rangers_and_celtic_to_quit_scott ish_premier_league/

The chances of him getting his wish to leave the SPL have improved in the last 24 hours:greengrin

[Golden Bear]

McCoist has been behaving like a spoilt little brat of late and now it seems as though it's everyone's fault apart from Rangers FC who apparently have behaved impeccably throughout.

His previous jovial good guy image has gone well and truly out of the window.


:dummytit:

[green glory]

https://twitter.com/stvdavidc/status/203113474061115394

Interesting. A futile last ditch effort to overturn last night's decision? Mind you Doncaster will probably be willing to take his knickers off for him.

It's about time the findings of the SPL investigation into the dual contracts was made public too.

[ScottB]

McCoist has been behaving like a spoilt little brat of late and now it seems as though it's everyone's fault apart from Rangers FC who apparently have behaved impeccably throughout.

His previous jovial good guy image has gone well and truly out of the window.


:dummytit:

I note he's not demanding that the identities of Green's consortium be made public...

[ScottB]

https://twitter.com/stvdavidc/status/203113474061115394

Interesting. A futile last ditch effort to overturn last night's decision? Mind you Doncaster will probably be willing to take his knickers off for him.

It's about time the findings of the SPL investigation into the dual contracts was made public too.

They can't over rule the panel of legal minds that are empowered to make decisions according to the rules all the clubs signed up to. If they do that I expect UEFA would unleash their fury, as there would be no defence of such actions.

[Just Alf]

They can't over rule the panel of legal minds that are empowered to make decisions according to the rules all the clubs signed up to. If they do that I expect UEFA would unleash their fury, as there would be no defence of such actions.

a later ....er... twit?...... seems to say that the meeting was planned a few days ago.....

maybe Emerald knew they were going to get the bums rush or it's about something else?

maybe he's on his knees pleading that they forget about the dual contracts and stuff and let them go to the 3rd div...... looking at what's gone before being totally bumped could be a serious possibility! :agree:

[ScottB]

a later ....er... twit?...... seems to say that the meeting was planned a few days ago.....

maybe Emerald knew they were going to get the bums rush or it's about something else?

maybe he's on his knees pleading that they forget about the dual contracts and stuff and let them go to the 3rd div...... looking at what's gone before being totally bumped could be a serious possibility! :agree:

Thomson's blog makes the point that nobody that isn't a moron would be surprised at the punishments being kept, if Green is indeed a serious bidder then you'd have to assume he knew that...

I agree, I think that the findings have left expulsion as the only possible punishment for the dual contracts issue. Of course it doesn't stop Rangers 2012 applying to the third division as a totally new entity, or buying up some other team and renaming them.

I think they key point is that the current Rangers days are numbered. A low number at that!

[Hibtastic]

The arrogance in this article is beyond belief!!

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/17/SOCCER_Rangers_Fans.html&TEAMHD=scotspremiership&BID=425

[jonty]

Thomson's blog makes the point that nobody that isn't a moron would be surprised at the punishments being kept, if Green is indeed a serious bidder then you'd have to assume he knew that...

I agree, I think that the findings have left expulsion as the only possible punishment for the dual contracts issue. Of course it doesn't stop Rangers 2012 applying to the third division as a totally new entity, or buying up some other team and renaming them.

I think they key point is that the current Rangers days are numbered. A low number at that!

New club. No history. Same bigots.

[joe breezy]

Delusional, there is a rather large country to the South containing the richest leagues in the world...

I can't wait for this odious club to die

[Prawn Sandwich]

New club. No history. Same bigots.

Brilliant! That gave me a laugh. That could the Newco's Moto?

[Saorsa]

The arrogance in this article is beyond belief!!

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/17/SOCCER_Rangers_Fans.html&TEAMHD=scotspremiership&BID=425boo hoo, we're getting picked on :boo hoo: quite happy tae accept winning while cheating though :rolleyes:




Personally I'd be gutted if they never turned up at ER :hilarious

[lapsedhibee]

The arrogance in this article is beyond belief!!

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/17/SOCCER_Rangers_Fans.html&TEAMHD=scotspremiership&BID=425

"One of the things that has been a very healthy part of Scottish football over the years is that Rangers have bought players from other Scottish clubs.

:faf:

[green glory]

Looking forward to taking photos of an overgrown pitch and weeds growing in the stands at Ibroke.

[Saorsa]

"One of the things that has been a very healthy part of Scottish football over the years is that Rangers have bought players from other Scottish clubs.

:faf:Aye, we should be grateful tae them, bought up everybody else's best players thus insuring lack of any competition and did it with money that wisnae theirs.

what a plum.

[ScottB]

The arrogance in this article is beyond belief!!

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/17/SOCCER_Rangers_Fans.html&TEAMHD=scotspremiership&BID=425

Fantastic, that will give the clubs that had been up for voting them back into the SPL a push to join us in the 'away and do one' camp :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

I was wondering if the Rangers fans would imagine the situation whereby their club had been run financially correct while another rival say for example Celtc, had deliberately flouted player contract rules for a number of years paying more than they could afford including avoiding tax and deliberately didnt pay tax worth £13m puounds thus allowing them to use money in other ways. If this other cheating team had won trophies throughout this period arguably due to this form of cheating what would the Rangers fans consider to be an appropriate punishment. I wonder if they would consider a £160k fine and not being able to transfer players for a year would be seen as appropriate. I would guess they would be screaming from the roof tops that this other club be banished from the league forever never to return.

[JimBHibees]

The arrogance in this article is beyond belief!!

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/17/SOCCER_Rangers_Fans.html&TEAMHD=scotspremiership&BID=425

It is indeed and anyone who is being asked to make comments on this from a Rangers perspective should at the very least have been made to read the SFA Report released last week which gave a full account of the situation and had a bit more substance than "a big Whyte boy did it and ran away".

[cad]

Stolen from elsewhere (X2) :-

"The appeal meeting will come to order.
Please rise for the learned Judge Carloway.
Please be seated."

Judge Carloway: "Will the counsel for the defence state the grounds for the appeal?"

Richard Keene QC: "We are the people."

Judge Carloway: "Appeal dismissed."

:faf: :faf: :faf:


Classic young Jack, :top marks

Latest that Ive managed to gather .



1, Sponsored walk on Saturday being proposed 1872 spaces walker to get £100 for his mile and a bit trek,
I wish they would make up their minds follow , follow or dont walk away gets awfi confusing


2. Rangers forums meeting about there terrible situation and how they are being treated shafted what ever , at Ibrox tonight 5.30 just in time for the STV News or Channel 4 @7, Boycott Boycott will be the cry


3. Charlie at Hampden today to meet Rocket Regan and Dolly Doncaster ,that will be his starter for 10 me thinks



4. Its rumoured that Sir David Murray of Murrayfield is trying to get this TV programme cancelled next week injunction etc , taken from RM

Heard about this today from good source. He says Murray trying for injunction to prevent broadcast as allegations of phone hacking by SDM of flat cap McCann's phone to beat Tim signings plan.

FFS man, gets worse.

[grunt]

for those legally inclined...

http://web3dlaw.wordpress.com/2012/05/17/rangers-in-crisis-some-legal-explanations-and-questions-for-the-mainstreamers/

[calmac12000]

Just what are the Huns and their media apologists going to do now. We've had the ignoring facts phase, the obfuscation phase and then the downright untruth phase. We've had D & F's attempts at stretching to the limit any reasonable observers concept of credibility, not to mention a flagrant disregard for the norms of commercial governance. We await with rapt interest the result of the SPL's investigation into irregular payments and of course HMRC have to adjudicate on Rangers appeal on their assessment of unpaid task. Not to mention that the Green consortium are telling us with a straight face that they hope to secure a CVA, which will incidentally overturn HMRC's accepted policy.
These then are in the main the facts in the public domain at this time
I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't be putting money on Rangers in any capacity being around next season.

[Jack]

Thomson's blog makes the point that nobody that isn't a moron would be surprised at the punishments being kept, if Green is indeed a serious bidder then you'd have to assume he knew that...

I agree, I think that the findings have left expulsion as the only possible punishment for the dual contracts issue. Of course it doesn't stop Rangers 2012 applying to the third division as a totally new entity, or buying up some other team and renaming them.

I think they key point is that the current Rangers days are numbered. A low number at that!

On this its just occurred to me, sorry I know this has been going on a while :-)

Does anyone else think that this case has been taken out of chronological order to try and keep them in?

These cases were deemed so serious only, note the word only, match rigging would have been more serious.

Personally I feel the deception around 75 players contracts who took part in more than 500 matches over more than 10 years to be considerably more serious but that's maybe just me, than avoiding tax over a few months.

If this case had been considered first and we all know they're guilty, the tax avoidance would be a serious 'second' offence where expulsion would have been the only option.

We now have the EBT / double contract, 'less serious' crimes to get a ruling on having been told these are not among the top two most serious offences so should attract a lesser sentence despite involving some £50m in avoided tax.

[CropleyWasGod]

On this its just occurred to me, sorry I know this has been going on a while :-)

Does anyone else think that this case has been taken out of chronological order to try and keep them in?

These cases were deemed so serious only, note the word only, match rigging would have been more serious.

Personally I feel the deception around 75 players contracts who took part in more than 500 matches over more than 10 years to be considerably more serious but that's maybe just me, than avoiding tax over a few months.

If this case had been considered first and we all know they're guilty, the tax avoidance would be a serious 'second' offence where expulsion would have been the only option.

We now have the EBT / double contract, 'less serious' crimes to get a ruling on having been told these are not among the top two most serious offences so should attract a lesser sentence despite involving some £50m in avoided tax.

I think it's the SPL that is investigating the double-contract situation. The SFA is, I think, the appeals body.

That said, the double-contract thing IS, in the main, about tax avoidance. So, in the SFA's eyes, guilt in that case would be a second offence of the same type.

[Jack]

I think it's the SPL that is investigating the double-contract situation. The SFA is, I think, the appeals body.

That said, the double-contract thing IS about tax avoidance. So, in the SFA's eyes, guilt in that case would be a second offence of the same type.

Oh goodie goodie :-)

[Ozyhibby]

Worth a read.

http://web3dlaw.wordpress.com/2012/05/17/rangers-in-crisis-some-legal-explanations-and-questions-for-the-mainstreamers/

[johnbc70]

While the SFA have shown to be talking some action the SPL have been very quiet the last few months. We need updates on the dual contacts, as it seems to have been going on for month's. I also emailed them asking for their findings after Rangers were charged with sectarian singing against Kilmarnock, nothing back from them and as far as I am aware it has been conveniently brushed under the carpet. Disgrace if it has, media seem to have forgotten all about it as well.

[JeMeSouviens]

On this its just occurred to me, sorry I know this has been going on a while :-)

Does anyone else think that this case has been taken out of chronological order to try and keep them in?

These cases were deemed so serious only, note the word only, match rigging would have been more serious.

Personally I feel the deception around 75 players contracts who took part in more than 500 matches over more than 10 years to be considerably more serious but that's maybe just me, than avoiding tax over a few months.

If this case had been considered first and we all know they're guilty, the tax avoidance would be a serious 'second' offence where expulsion would have been the only option.

We now have the EBT / double contract, 'less serious' crimes to get a ruling on having been told these are not among the top two most serious offences so should attract a lesser sentence despite involving some £50m in avoided tax.

Don't think so, pretty sure the SFA announced the Craig Whyte shenanigans enquiry before the SPL announced the double contract enquiry. Plus, as you say, the double contract enquiry stretches back years and should maybe take longer?

I think the SPL will wait for the FTT result on the BTC to arrive first. If the payments are found to be liable to tax then I think the SPL will have to treat them as payments for playing and the Hun will be toasted. Of course, I'd imagine Donkey Doncaster will be desperate to go easy on them compared to the SFA's independent judicial tribunals, which I have to say have been an absolute breath of fresh governance air in the last few weeks. :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Don't think so, pretty sure the SFA announced the Craig Whyte shenanigans enquiry before the SPL announced the double contract enquiry. Plus, as you say, the double contract enquiry stretches back years and should maybe take longer?

I think the SPL will wait for the FTT result on the BTC to arrive first. If the payments are found to be liable to tax then I think the SPL will have to treat them as payments for playing and the Hun will be toasted. Of course, I'd imagine Donkey Doncaster will be desperate to go easy on them compared to the SFA's independent judicial tribunals, which I have to say have been an absolute breath of fresh governance air in the last few weeks. :wink:

I think it will be difficult, too.

As you say, the HMRC verdict will give a decent basis. But, how likely is it that anyone is going to break ranks and say "oh yes, we were at it."?

[calmac12000]

Oh goodie goodie :-)

It is my reading, that the current punishment is for misdemeanors committed under Craig Whytes stewardship. If the double cobtracts issue is proven then surely that must be judged independently from this. It seems to be unfair in terms of natural justice to treat and offence committed under the ancien regime as being a second breach of regulations since mens rhea is unlikely to be able to be proved on a retrospective basis. Alternatively, it may be adjudged as being evidence of widespread corporate failure. Apologies, just got a wee bit sidetracked. However the bottom line would appear to be that the Hun is in evident and hopefully fatal distress.
:flag::flag::flag: :flag::flag::flag::flag:

[Lungo--Drom]

Like some closed railway station back in the days of Dr. Beeching in the 1960s.

Broken windows, holes in the roof, rubble lying on the ground, weeds growing through cracks in the concrete, graffiti on the walls, burnt out cars lying in the middle of the pitch, rubbish blowing about in the wind, tumbleweed blowing past the rusty holes where the goal posts used to be. Like Govan's very own version of inner city Detroit...

I can hardly wait :D



Looking forward to taking photos of an overgrown pitch and weeds growing in the stands at Ibroke.

[RyeSloan]

I think it will be difficult, too.

As you say, the HMRC verdict will give a decent basis. But, how likely is it that anyone is going to break ranks and say "oh yes, we were at it."?

Does there HAVE to be a tax implication for the double contracts issue still to be, ermmm, an issue?

Is it not a case of one contract being lodged with the SPL saying Player X will be paid Y and another contract being held in the Big Hoose saying Player X will be paid Y + Z.

Whether or not Z is liable for tax or not does not take away the fact that one document said Y while the other Y + Z

Or is this too simple an analysis?

[Broken Gnome]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18108973

Glorious. World slowly becoming a better place.

[CropleyWasGod]

Does there HAVE to be a tax implication for the double contracts issue still to be, ermmm, an issue?

Is it not a case of one contract being lodged with the SPL saying Player X will be paid Y and another contract being held in the Big Hoose saying Player X will be paid Y + Z.

Whether or not Z is liable for tax or not does not take away the fact that one document said Y while the other Y + Z

Or is this too simple an analysis?

I am struggling to see why there wouldn't be a tax aspect to a double-contract situation. Ignoring the EBT for one minute... if we pretend that hasn't happened.... the whole point of the double-contract scenario was to avoid tax. I can't see why else they would have done it.

The point I was making is that, because the double-contracts suited everyone (the club, the players, the directors), it's going to be very difficult to get anyone to break ranks and admit to it.

[down-the-slope]

The more I read out of Ibrox and the comments of some of there 'fans' the more I see they just don't understand the pain is caused by themselves....shooting yourself in the foot is ......well stupid
Kerr says it is unreasonable to hold Rangers to account for Whyte's actions
"We need to be careful that we don't end up hurting ourselves at the same time'' Kerr (rangers assembley)

8266

[The Falcon]

I am struggling to see why there wouldn't be a tax aspect to a double-contract situation. Ignoring the EBT for one minute... if we pretend that hasn't happened.... the whole point of the double-contract scenario was to avoid tax. I can't see why else they would have done it.

The point I was making is that, because the double-contracts suited everyone (the club, the players, the directors), it's going to be very difficult to get anyone to break ranks and admit to it.


Perhaps if all the players involved were to offer to meet the tax liabilities it would show their commitment to and genuine affection for The Rangers. After all, did none of them (or their agents) smell a rat when they were asked to sign not one, but two, contracts, with the first the only one being liable for UK tax.

If Rangers cant/wont pay then I dont see anything wrong with pursuing the players for the unpaid tax. After all (if) they did sign a contract (or two) then the income should have been declared on their tax returns somewhere.

[theonlywayisup]

The more I read out of Ibrox and the comments of some of there 'fans' the more I see they just don't understand the pain is caused by themselves....shooting yourself in the foot is ......well stupid
Kerr says it is unreasonable to hold Rangers to account for Whyte's actions
"We need to be careful that we don't end up hurting ourselves at the same time'' Kerr (rangers assembley)

8266

I tell you, Rangers fans are revolting!

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps if all the players involved were to offer to meet the tax liabilities it would show their commitment to and genuine affection for The Rangers. After all, did none of them (or their agents) smell a rat when they were asked to sign not one, but two, contracts, with the first the only one being liable for UK tax.

If Rangers cant/wont pay then I dont see anything wrong with pursuing the players for the unpaid tax. After all (if) they did sign a contract (or two) then the income should have been declared on their tax returns somewhere.

The moon is made of (Charlie) Green cheese an all. :greengrin

[HFC 0-7]

I am struggling to see why there wouldn't be a tax aspect to a double-contract situation. Ignoring the EBT for one minute... if we pretend that hasn't happened.... the whole point of the double-contract scenario was to avoid tax. I can't see why else they would have done it.

The point I was making is that, because the double-contracts suited everyone (the club, the players, the directors), it's going to be very difficult to get anyone to break ranks and admit to it.

As far as I am aware is that the SPL arent looking into the double contract from a tax point of view. They are looking at it from a breach of rules. I am sure the SPL must be informed of every payment made to the players, so if there are double contracts I am sure they will be punished based on breaking that particular rule not for avoiding tax.

[CropleyWasGod]

As far as I am aware is that the SPL arent looking into the double contract from a tax point of view. They are looking at it from a breach of rules. I am sure the SPL must be informed of every payment made to the players, so if there are double contracts I am sure they will be punished based on breaking that particular rule not for avoiding tax.

That is indeed why they are investigating it. But, again, since so many people would have benefitted from it (principally from a tax position), it will be difficult to prove...

[HFC 0-7]

That is indeed why they are investigating it. But, again, since so many people would have benefitted from it (principally from a tax position), it will be difficult to prove...

Would there not be a hole in their accounting though? They must have provided the SPL with one of the contracts. If thats the case would their not be a massive difference between their spending on salaries and what was provided to the SPL. For the big tax case, would they not have investigated the situation to find out if there were dual contracts and if one them were being witheld from the SPL. If they did investigate that and found that they were witholding information from the SPL then that, to me, would prove an element of guilt from Rangers side in that they were trying to keep it hush and knew it wasnt above board.

[Just Alf]

for those legally inclined...

http://web3dlaw.wordpress.com/2012/05/17/rangers-in-crisis-some-legal-explanations-and-questions-for-the-mainstreamers/

If you don't read anything else tonight, read this.... for once a really, really clear picture of the Huns current reality! :greengrin

(it's long tho :rolleyes: )

[Jack]

As I understand it these multi national type players, for want of a better description, have their deals contracted to a net figure - so that different tax regimes in different countries don't matter.

Multiple contracts do exist, for playing, image rights etc. but I'd imagine they must all be registered and have tax properly paid on them. This is where they seem to have a bit remiss in completing the trail. Oops, forgot to register that one and pay tax on it, 75 times :-(

[camhibby1]

Perhaps if all the players involved were to offer to meet the tax liabilities it would show their commitment to and genuine affection for The Rangers. After all, did none of them (or their agents) smell a rat when they were asked to sign not one, but two, contracts, with the first the only one being liable for UK tax.

If Rangers cant/wont pay then I dont see anything wrong with pursuing the players for the unpaid tax. After all (if) they did sign a contract (or two) then the income should have been declared on their tax returns somewhere.


I said weeks ago when discussing the complicity in all this of apologists for Rangers, that I do not believe players, even those who have taken a cut/deferment? in wages should be seen as victims in this - younger and academy players perhaps - but not full-time professionals who have agents. These guys were signing contracts for weekly wages equivalent to the average guy's yearly salary. No-one will convince me that players didn't know what was up - some might be thick but it's stretching the unintelligent/naivety bit just a tad.

[ScottB]

Interesting that based on the Rangers Tax Case blogs tweets, he / they seem to suspect that Green is nothing but a front for whatever Whyte's endgame is... Alex Thomson also seems to be hinting at D&P having backed the wrong horse over other potential buyers...

[ehf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18108973

Glorious. World slowly becoming a better place.

So they travel to away games but stay outside? What a Grade A bell-end!

[Brando7]

I'm wondering why the police not grabbed Craig White for tax fraud yet? are they even looking into this?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm wondering why the police not grabbed Craig White for tax fraud yet? are they even looking into this?

Simply paying taxes late is not seen as fraud, otherwise there would be millions more in our jails. In most cases, late payment of tax is a sign of a business in trouble, or bad management.

One would have to prove that there was genuine intent to defraud the Revenue.

[Bostonhibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18108973

Glorious. World slowly becoming a better place.

:agree: Why don't we help them out? Scotland in the form of fans of the other clubs in Scotland could boycott them first? And isn't the national team England anyway for many of them?

[D7 Bohs]

Does there HAVE to be a tax implication for the double contracts issue still to be, ermmm, an issue?

Is it not a case of one contract being lodged with the SPL saying Player X will be paid Y and another contract being held in the Big Hoose saying Player X will be paid Y + Z.

Whether or not Z is liable for tax or not does not take away the fact that one document said Y while the other Y + Z

Or is this too simple an analysis?

No.

Or shouldn't be. Derry city were busted down a division here on the basis of ONE player on a double contract. Since Derry's peculiar situation means they play in the league of one jurisdiction and pay tax in another, it never came up AFAIK.

[Jim44]

Green was meeting Doncaster and Regan today. I heard a bit of a report saying that Green was heartened and optimistic at what was discussed. Is he only playing mind games, as reports yesterday suggested Regan was going to take a hard line with Green about the membership of his phantom consortium.

[CropleyWasGod]

Green was meeting Doncaster and Regan today. I heard a bit of a report saying that Green was heartened and optimistic at what was discussed. Is he only playing mind games, as reports yesterday suggested Regan was going to take a hard line with Green about the membership of his phantom consortium.

This is how it went (I hope)

Green "Will Rangers be in the SPL next year?"

Doncaster "Nope"

Green "Will Rangers be booted out of the SFA?"

Regan "Yup"

Green "So I'll get the properties for next to nothing?"

Regan and Doncaster "Looks like it"

Green " Ya beauty....I am heartened and optmistic."

[CropleyWasGod]

No.

Or shouldn't be. Derry city were busted down a division here on the basis of ONE player on a double contract. Since Derry's peculiar situation means they play in the league of one jurisdiction and pay tax in another, it never came up AFAIK.

Interesting.

I would still wager, though, that the whole point of that situation was to avoid tax.

[Brando7]

Simply paying taxes late is not seen as fraud, otherwise there would be millions more in our jails. In most cases, late payment of tax is a sign of a business in trouble, or bad management.

One would have to prove that there was genuine intent to defraud the Revenue.

But he not planning to pay it tho is he, well not the full ammount anyway I would call that tax evasion

So murray will be crapping it then come the big tax case?

[CropleyWasGod]

But he not planning to pay it tho is he, well not the full ammount anyway I would call that tax evasion

So murray will be crapping it then come the big tax case?

In Whyte's case, you would have to prove that he never intended to pay it, ever. Even at that, it would be RFC who got done initially. To me, it is just a case of a business in severe difficulties. The Revenue are always one of the first creditors to get bumped.

SDM's case is a bit less clear-cut to me. I am sure he would hide behind the defence that he was acting on advice received. To be fair, a lot of companies were taking that same line at the time... it's "unfortunate" for them that HMRC didn't agree with their interpretation of the law.

However, HMRC might press charges to make an example of him... but it would, again, be difficult to prove "wilful" fraud.

[grunt]

more interesting stuff:

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/17/statements-from-rangers-regarding-the-failed-appeal-re-transfer-embargo/

especially like this bit:


I may have missed it, but I have seen little if any apology for the non-payment of £13 million in tax, nor for the fact that HMRC will not see much, if any of that, whilst at the same time there is no chance of anything from the Big Tax Case being paid. Nobody has yet explained to me how Rangers did not benefit from the £13 million. There was over £3 million in Rangers bank when Duff & Phelps moved in. Presumably that was the balance of the money left, after the rest had gone paying the bills, including wages of players that Rangers would not otherwise have been able to afford to keep!

This is such a clear-cut case of taking an unfair advantage, as described by Neil Doncaster, that I cannot see why the SPL has not acted to withhold prize money. After all, the SPL proceeded against Hearts under the utmost good faith rule for being, allegedly, one day late. Here, by use of money which was due to HMRC, Rangers maintained their place in the league, to the point where the 10-point penalty has proved meaningless. Almost every team in the SPL below Rangers should be one step up the prize money ladder. Why is no one mentioning this?

[down-the-slope]

i do hope there will be some SFA comings and goings at Hampden tomorrow - pleading owners / protesting morons etc will add to the afternoon entertainment :greengrin

[grunt]

This bit was interesting too. A slip of the tongue?

Rangers - Sandy Jardine, spokesman for the Rangers Fans Fighting Fund, added: “Rangers supporters will be shocked and bitterly disappointed by this decision and will find it hard to take that the club has been so heavily punished for the actions of individuals.”

Comment - Ah. Now this is an interesting comment. Sandy Jardine says that fans will find it hard to take it that the club is being punished for the actions of “individuals”. This is the official Rangers website, so I suspect an argument that he had been misquoted or take out of context would not work. Is this the only acknowledgement so far by Rangers that there were more people to blame than Mr Whyte? Maybe someone will ask Mr Jardine to whom he is referring.

[TrickyNicky]

If you don't read anything else tonight, read this.... for once a really, really clear picture of the Huns current reality! :greengrin

(it's long tho :rolleyes: )



Here are some probable outcomes - quoted from Web.3D.Law


Where does this leave RFC (IA)? Here is what I see as the potential outcomes in no particular order…


Option 1 – Sell assets, namely players raising cash for a CVA pot. Ticketus and HMRC will have to agree.. Right now, either of them could block a CVA on the 75% Creditors rule. Ticketus has about a £26M claim as an unsecured creditor. HMRC has about a £42 claim. (25M +9M PAYE +4M VAT on Ticketus deal, and 4M “wee tax case”). As the judgement from the ‘big tax case’ is not in yet, I’ll leave that out. I still see HMRC and Ticketus having to agree to any CVA and the only way they will agree is for a fire sale of all Rangers assets to raise the value of the CVA pot.
Rangers stay in the SPL, and with the transfer embargo in place, have to field a team of youngsters for a season.

Option 2: Rangers sell Ibrox and all the other fixed assets to keep the players. I know this is an unlikely outcome. While Ally’s rallying cry “we don’t do walking away” made for rallying the troops, when a players livelihood is on the line, it will be hard pressed not to walk away to the bank to collect a pay check from a club on much stronger foundations. Without any working capital and no legal right to buy players, the only way RFC can stay competitive is to sell their fixed assets – Ibrox, Murray Park, and the two car parks. Take the proceeds from the asset sale and stick it in the CVA pot. Hope all the unsecured creditors agree.
Rent Ibrox back from its new owners. Or play in Hampden and rent it from the SFA. Ouch. That would be a sore one. All the big name players go, with the exception of people like Lee McCulloch and one or two of the rising stars like Andy Little. This gives the club some working capital. They can’t rely on Ticket sales to raise funds anymore because of the Ticketusdeal and the season ticket deals.

Option 3: The big tax case comes back against Rangers and holds up the levy already placed on Rangers. HMRC moves for liquidation. All hell breaks loose and all the assets are sold off – players and fixed and creditors repaid pennies on the pound. Rangers are killed off by two decades of financial mismanagement. The blame lies at Sir David Murray’s door as much as it is Craig Whyte’s.

Option 4: This is the ‘NewCo’ option and would involve literally start all over again by applying to get back into the SFA. Sell all players and sell all fixed assets. A possibility would be to rent Ibrox and Murray Park back from its new owners. The transfer embargo has ensured those 40 players on RFC rosters have a place to play. It just means that they can’t buy anyone for 12 months over the age of 18.
The competence of the panel and the reasoning behind the decision has now been explained. Let’s say we see, either an oldco RFC in the SPL next season, or a “NewCo” RFC next year.
Under the ‘oldco’ outcome, we will see a club with no stadium, no players, under an effective transfer embargo, and either playing at Ibrox rented from its new owners or Hampden, if Ibrox is sold off to developers. It will likely have been punished a further points reduction for still being in administration. It will likely be a shell club, well shy of its former glory. It will be Rangers though, and that will be what a lot of the fans will want to see.

Under the ‘newco’ option, it will not be Rangers and that will be a sore pill to take for a lot of supporters.

All of this gets settled and then the double contract announcement comes home to roost. The former RFC as a “newco” can’t be punished anymore, because it is, well new. The “oldco” can be. I think it will be appropriate and likely that the football community start to think of the totality of Craig Whyte’s actions as misdemeanours. If the double contract judgement comes back against Rangers, it will likely be referred to as a series of felonies – systematic long-term cheating and we will have to have a serious of conversations about how to deal with this. Do we invalidate all of the results over a year when EBTs and double contracts were in use? If that’s the case, I think we need to look at how much money clubs lost out on after amending all of the tainted results. Should compensatory damages be paid to all of those clubs that lost out on a second, 3rd or 4th place finish, because of a financially doped team? How much did clubs lose out on from not being able to play in Europe? What would be the difference in the amount each club would have received from the Commercial Fund? What would attendance have been if the playing field had been levelled? There will be a lot of questions to be answered. However, you and I will get there together.

[TrickyNicky]

This bit was interesting too. A slip of the tongue?

Rangers - Sandy Jardine, spokesman for the Rangers Fans Fighting Fund, added: “Rangers supporters will be shocked and bitterly disappointed by this decision and will find it hard to take that the club has been so heavily punished for the actions of individuals.”

Comment - Ah. Now this is an interesting comment. Sandy Jardine says that fans will find it hard to take it that the club is being punished for the actions of “individuals”. This is the official Rangers website, so I suspect an argument that he had been misquoted or take out of context would not work. Is this the only acknowledgement so far by Rangers that there were more people to blame than Mr Whyte? Maybe someone will ask Mr Jardine to whom he is referring.

Maybe it was the " NEDS " - (Non Executive Directors) Messieurs Greig and Mclelland.

[TrickyNicky]

In Whyte's case, you would have to prove that he never intended to pay it, ever. Even at that, it would be RFC who got done initially. To me, it is just a case of a business in severe difficulties. The Revenue are always one of the first creditors to get bumped.

SDM's case is a bit less clear-cut to me. I am sure he would hide behind the defence that he was acting on advice received. To be fair, a lot of companies were taking that same line at the time... it's "unfortunate" for them that HMRC didn't agree with their interpretation of the law.

However, HMRC might press charges to make an example of him... but it would, again, be difficult to prove "wilful" fraud.

I would love it that SDM was exposed as the main culprit in all of this and not punished at all.

He would live with the fact that he ruined his beloved club and the hordes of flesh-eating Huns would feel so betrayed by their saviour that all hope would be lost for eternity !:greengrin

[Just Alf]

MOONBEAMS with various supporters groups chaired By Mr Charles Green, Sandy Jardine and Jim Hannah.

The Meeting commenced at 5:30 and ran until 6:50. There was an agenda produced by Mr. Green then the floor opened for questions.

1. Season ticket prices.
Despite no increases in the past three years and the desperate need for money coming into the Club, the prices will not be increased for the forthcoming season. An official announcement will be issued soon. The Ticketus deal is over.

2. Meeting with the SFA/ SFA Appeal.
Mr Keen, our Q.C. presented a strong case why the penalties were harsh. The sanctions were not actually in the SFA Rule Books. He stressed we were very likely to lose players. He spoke for one and a quarter hours. The SFA's lawyer then presented his case. Both Mr Green and Sandy Jardine stressed the panel were independent and not "football men". Rangers asked for a quick decision in order that we may plan what to do next. The panel went away for an hour and a half and returned with the verbal decision, to be confirmed in writing, that the decision and sanctions stand

3/4. Deal Structure/ CVA/ Newco and CVA letter issue date.
Mr Green's preferred route is a CVA. Funds are in place to pay the creditors. On or around next Friday Duff and Phelps will write to the creditors with the offer. The creditors then have 14 days to decide if they will accept. If all say yes, Duff and Phelps stand aside and Mr Green pays the creditors, although he will not yet be the new owner. From making their decision, the creditors then have a 28 day cooling off period in which they can change their minds but Mr Green thought it unlikely any would do so having made a decision. Once the debt is settled, Rangers are out of administration. Crucially, the SFA looks upon things differently, and once the creditors accept - not when they get paid - Rangers are, in the SFA's eyes, out of administration.

Scottish football is working to new rules, so it is vital all is settled before the 4th August - or we may face further punishments.

If we go down the newco route, it is along similar lines to Bill Miller's except Mr Green will pay the creditors now. Bill Miller's idea was to pay them off over three or four years.

Mr Green stressed that whatever happens we will not lose the history or the trophies. The Club was founded in 1872 before the days of incorporation. In 1899, we incorporated. In 1981, we re-registered. All with the history intact. All we get is a different number in companies house against our name.

5. Investor information.
Mr Green was looking into the purchase from 18th February. His idea is to have investors owning from 1% to 15%. All 26,000 current fan share holders will be invited to invest and given 2 or 3 years to fund their investment. The press have found out about Kevin McDonald and Freddie Shepherd and approached them. Both have declared an interest in investing but as yet, have not done so. Mr Green has 5 or 6 people who have already committed to invest and who have paid money to be part of the dream. Some are from the Middle East and some are from the Far East. None are Rangers fans but are football fans. Their dream is to fund soccer academies in the Far East and to see Rangers progress in Europe, where the creation of a European League is seen as a reality.

The company will be listed and everyone will be able to see all who invest. At the moment they have asked for privacy.

6. Craig Whyte agreement.
Mt Green has met Mr Whyte on three occasions and has paid him £1 for the Club. He also paid him a second pound so that Mr Whyte could make a 100% profit on the deal. The thing is set in stone and Mr Whyte cannot back out. Mr Green stressed that anything David Murray or Craig Whyte did should be consigned to the history books and we now look forward.

The floor was opened to questions.

Asked what would happen if one, two or three of our recently called up International players got crocked playing for their country and we could not sign anyone because of the embargo, Mr Green and Sandy Jardine expressed their amazement and anger at how the situation may develop. Mr Whyte pointed out to the panel at Hampden that we had three goalkeepers on our books and asked what would happen if they all got serious injury, would we have to field a team without a keeper? No satisfactory answer was forthcoming. They looked at the team sheets and saw almost 40 signed players from 17 years of age up. Sandy Jardine asked them what would happen if all the experienced players left. The answer was that we still had enough on the books to put out a team. Sandy Jardine answered that you cannot blood a youngster too soon. One bad game and he may be finished. But he told the Meeting the people he was talking to were not football people.

Asked if we should plump for Division 3, Mr Green replied that without Rangers there is no SPL and the other Club Chairmen know it. While other clubs fan may want us demoted, their Chairmen are businessmen.

Mr Green stated that while not a test case, if we were Crewe Alexandria or Arbroath, the punishments would not be sever, indeed there may be calls to assist us.

Mr Green stated that there may be a "year of pain" but that we would emerge from it and regain our place. Asked where he saw us in 5 years, he said "top of the League".Mr Green paid great tribute to Ally McCoist, the management team, the players and to Rangers men such as Sandy Jardine and Jim Hannah who had given so much.

Asked about further investors, Mr Green said that he had held meetings today and would hold more tomorrow with Rangers fans keen to invest. They were, he said, major names in Scottish business - and Bluenoses.

Asked about future players Mr Green reminded the meeting that he had built and sold the largest sports agency in the world and still had the contacts. "who would not want to come and play for Rangers?" he asked.

Lastly, Mr Green stressed that it was most important that there should be no disruption to the Cup Final at the weekend. It would not be beneficial to Rangers

------------------------------
some glaring contradictions.... and a lot of pash!!!!!!

[TrickyNicky]

MOONBEAMS with various supporters groups chaired By Mr Charles Green, Sandy Jardine and Jim Hannah.

The Meeting commenced at 5:30 and ran until 6:50. There was an agenda produced by Mr. Green then the floor opened for questions.

1. Season ticket prices.
Despite no increases in the past three years and the desperate need for money coming into the Club, the prices will not be increased for the forthcoming season. An official announcement will be issued soon. The Ticketus deal is over.

2. Meeting with the SFA/ SFA Appeal.
Mr Keen, our Q.C. presented a strong case why the penalties were harsh. The sanctions were not actually in the SFA Rule Books. He stressed we were very likely to lose players. He spoke for one and a quarter hours. The SFA's lawyer then presented his case. Both Mr Green and Sandy Jardine stressed the panel were independent and not "football men". Rangers asked for a quick decision in order that we may plan what to do next. The panel went away for an hour and a half and returned with the verbal decision, to be confirmed in writing, that the decision and sanctions stand

3/4. Deal Structure/ CVA/ Newco and CVA letter issue date.
Mr Green's preferred route is a CVA. Funds are in place to pay the creditors. On or around next Friday Duff and Phelps will write to the creditors with the offer. The creditors then have 14 days to decide if they will accept. If all say yes, Duff and Phelps stand aside and Mr Green pays the creditors, although he will not yet be the new owner. From making their decision, the creditors then have a 28 day cooling off period in which they can change their minds but Mr Green thought it unlikely any would do so having made a decision. Once the debt is settled, Rangers are out of administration. Crucially, the SFA looks upon things differently, and once the creditors accept - not when they get paid - Rangers are, in the SFA's eyes, out of administration.

Scottish football is working to new rules, so it is vital all is settled before the 4th August - or we may face further punishments.

If we go down the newco route, it is along similar lines to Bill Miller's except Mr Green will pay the creditors now. Bill Miller's idea was to pay them off over three or four years.

Mr Green stressed that whatever happens we will not lose the history or the trophies. The Club was founded in 1872 before the days of incorporation. In 1899, we incorporated. In 1981, we re-registered. All with the history intact. All we get is a different number in companies house against our name.

5. Investor information.
Mr Green was looking into the purchase from 18th February. His idea is to have investors owning from 1% to 15%. All 26,000 current fan share holders will be invited to invest and given 2 or 3 years to fund their investment. The press have found out about Kevin McDonald and Freddie Shepherd and approached them. Both have declared an interest in investing but as yet, have not done so. Mr Green has 5 or 6 people who have already committed to invest and who have paid money to be part of the dream. Some are from the Middle East and some are from the Far East. None are Rangers fans but are football fans. Their dream is to fund soccer academies in the Far East and to see Rangers progress in Europe, where the creation of a European League is seen as a reality.

The company will be listed and everyone will be able to see all who invest. At the moment they have asked for privacy.

6. Craig Whyte agreement.
Mt Green has met Mr Whyte on three occasions and has paid him £1 for the Club. He also paid him a second pound so that Mr Whyte could make a 100% profit on the deal. The thing is set in stone and Mr Whyte cannot back out. Mr Green stressed that anything David Murray or Craig Whyte did should be consigned to the history books and we now look forward.

The floor was opened to questions.

Asked what would happen if one, two or three of our recently called up International players got crocked playing for their country and we could not sign anyone because of the embargo, Mr Green and Sandy Jardine expressed their amazement and anger at how the situation may develop. Mr Whyte pointed out to the panel at Hampden that we had three goalkeepers on our books and asked what would happen if they all got serious injury, would we have to field a team without a keeper? No satisfactory answer was forthcoming. They looked at the team sheets and saw almost 40 signed players from 17 years of age up. Sandy Jardine asked them what would happen if all the experienced players left. The answer was that we still had enough on the books to put out a team. Sandy Jardine answered that you cannot blood a youngster too soon. One bad game and he may be finished. But he told the Meeting the people he was talking to were not football people.

Asked if we should plump for Division 3, Mr Green replied that without Rangers there is no SPL and the other Club Chairmen know it. While other clubs fan may want us demoted, their Chairmen are businessmen.

Mr Green stated that while not a test case, if we were Crewe Alexandria or Arbroath, the punishments would not be sever, indeed there may be calls to assist us.

Mr Green stated that there may be a "year of pain" but that we would emerge from it and regain our place. Asked where he saw us in 5 years, he said "top of the League".Mr Green paid great tribute to Ally McCoist, the management team, the players and to Rangers men such as Sandy Jardine and Jim Hannah who had given so much.

Asked about further investors, Mr Green said that he had held meetings today and would hold more tomorrow with Rangers fans keen to invest. They were, he said, major names in Scottish business - and Bluenoses.

Asked about future players Mr Green reminded the meeting that he had built and sold the largest sports agency in the world and still had the contacts. "who would not want to come and play for Rangers?" he asked.

Lastly, Mr Green stressed that it was most important that there should be no disruption to the Cup Final at the weekend. It would not be beneficial to Rangers

------------------------------
some glaring contradictions.... and a lot of pash!!!!!!

These people have no shame in regards to their social responsibilities.

They think they are The SPL and would jump ship to a Euro League at the first chance!

They have tarnished the term " Football Men ' too!

They think they will keep their history, good, they can have it, a filthy, cheating disgrace! ( insert... and ... breathe... smiley.. )

[ScottB]

Wasn't the lead judge a former Chairman of Partick Thistle or something?

Stuff and nonsense, once again all three came from a list that all the clubs, Rangers included, approved. Their complaints about the ban seem to be ignoring the fact that it is meant to be a punishment! Of course that means they will have difficulty next season! Idiots.

[jgl07]

Lastly, Mr Green stressed that it was most important that there should be no disruption to the Cup Final at the weekend. It would not be beneficial to Rangers.

Cue for all the Celtic supporters to dress in blue and make a nuisance of themselves around Hampden Park on Saturday!

[green glory]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9272837/New-blow-for-Rangers-with-threat-of-SPL-sanctions.html

[down-the-slope]

where to start with that.....

sounds like they have a timescale from SFA to get it sorted or things get worse.

sounds like he is putting pennies in and hoping to get it all for buttons then get others to do the investing.....smoke, mirrors and blind hope...

and already are talking about a Euro league...the irony is shameless....so the SPL cant do without them...you must save us...otherwise we won't be here to take up better opportunities when they come along....
the other Chairmen should be asked to answer how they feel about them verbalising plans to leave when they can even at this point.....:grr:

might as well adjust you business plans now...they have made it clear its there desire not to be here

[StevieC]

This is an interesting statement ...

"and once the creditors accept - not when they get paid - Rangers are, in the SFA's eyes, out of administration."

Could there be a situation where they make an offer but, at a later point, refuse to honour it?

[StevieC]

"The press have found out about Kevin McDonald and Freddie Shepherd and approached them. Both have declared an interest in investing"

I was a bit worried about these investors, but now I know that Freddy Shepherd could be involved I feel much happier.
:wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Does there HAVE to be a tax implication for the double contracts issue still to be, ermmm, an issue?

Is it not a case of one contract being lodged with the SPL saying Player X will be paid Y and another contract being held in the Big Hoose saying Player X will be paid Y + Z.

Whether or not Z is liable for tax or not does not take away the fact that one document said Y while the other Y + Z

Or is this too simple an analysis?

There doesn't have to be, but in this case there is.

The tax implication is that any income derived from carrying out contractual duties should be taxable. The double contracts issue is that any payments made from playing football should be covered by one approved, registered contract.

In this case, HMRC contend that the EBT payments made to the players were made for playing football (and that the side letters prove this), so in effect the tax case and the double contracts issue overlap completely.

Plus it's a nice political benefit for the SPL/SFA if someone else (the FTT) find them guilty first. Thus I don't expect any move from the football authorities until after the FTT result is in.

[JeMeSouviens]

Doncaster, though, believes that the newco option has become unfairly discredited in the media since Rangers were plunged into administration over three months ago.

“Whenever I speak to people about the distinction between a Company Voluntary Agreement and a newco what I keep being told is that it’s simply wrong that any club should be able to create a newco and shed debt - as if a CVA doesn’t lead to the shedding of debt,” he said.

“Administration is the protection the court gives you when you can’t pay your debts. There are two ways out of that; one is a newco, one is a CVA."


Does he really think anyone believes this drivel? It's like saying serving a prison sentence and doing a bunk are the same thing, both allow you to live freely afterwards. :rolleyes:

[greenginger]

Neil Doncaster in today's Daily Mail

"I am baffled by the CVA/NewCo distinction"

"The distinction between the two is relatively fine.I am baffled as to why such a distinction is drawn"

" As if a CVA does'nt lead to the shedding of debt"

Who is the man trying to kid ? or is it possible he truly is an IMBECILE.

Distinctions between the two Neil. Try a worthwhile offer of say 30 - 40 pence in the pound, an offer in value far in excess of the break up value of the Company.
Or

A derisory offer of about 2 pence in the pound to ordinary creditors who respond by telling the offerer to go do one and a New Company is formed.

Another small difference is with the CVA it is the same Company/legal entity with a NewCo its a new Club. Not much difference eh Neil.

The man truly is out of his depth.

[down-the-slope]

This is an interesting statement ...

"and once the creditors accept - not when they get paid - Rangers are, in the SFA's eyes, out of administration."

Could there be a situation where they make an offer but, at a later point, refuse to honour it?

I would think the courts would have something to say about it if that happened. It is odd how SFA are viewing as during 28 day 'cooling off period' creditors can change mon...so they would not be out of admin


"The press have found out about Kevin McDonald and Freddie Shepherd and approached them. Both have declared an interest in investing"

I was a bit worried about these investors, buy now I know that Freddy Shepherd could be involved I feel much happier.
:wink:
this is where you can see how thin the money is behind them...reason they don't want them named...as with this pair they have apparently agreed nothing.....and as you are hinting...not universally loved individuals.....

[marinello59]

Neil Doncaster in today's Daily Mail

"I am baffled by the CVA/NewCo distinction"

"The distinction between the two is relatively fine.I am baffled as to why such a distinction is drawn"

" As if a CVA does'nt lead to the shedding of debt"

Who is the man trying to kid ? or is it possible he truly is an IMBECILE.

Distinctions between the two Neil. Try a worthwhile offer of say 30 - 40 pence in the pound, an offer in value far in excess of the break up value of the Company.
Or

A derisory offer of about 2 pence in the pound to ordinary creditors who respond by telling the offerer to go do one and a New Company is formed.

Another small difference is with the CVA it is the same Company/legal entity with a NewCo its a new Club. Not much difference eh Neil.

The man truly is out of his depth.

I was truly gobsmacked when I read that. What chance has the game in Scotland got with this guy holding some sort of power. I can't believe I defended him in the past now.

[Iain G]

I've read a lot of this thread and a lot of the press stories, and reading about the Rangers fans views, Sandy Jardine, Fat Ally and the rest, the conclusion I have come to, after a lot of thought and deliberation is:

Screw the whole damned lot of them and I hope their vile, bigotted, hate filled, self important and cheating club dies a long slow painfull death...:greengrin

[Caversham Green]

Would there not be a hole in their accounting though? They must have provided the SPL with one of the contracts. If thats the case would their not be a massive difference between their spending on salaries and what was provided to the SPL. For the big tax case, would they not have investigated the situation to find out if there were dual contracts and if one them were being witheld from the SPL. If they did investigate that and found that they were witholding information from the SPL then that, to me, would prove an element of guilt from Rangers side in that they were trying to keep it hush and knew it wasnt above board.

There wouldn't be a hole in their accounting because of the trust acting a a middle man. How it operates is that the club pays sums of money into the trust, which is a nominally independent entity, and the trust then 'loans' that money to the employees based on their 'needs'. The amounts paid to the trust are included in staff costs in the accounts but the amounts paid to the players are the trust's remit rather than the club's. The loans are interest-free and non-repayable during the player's lifetime and because they are loans they're not taxable.

The tax problems arise where these 'loans' are seen to be payments in recognition of the employee's employment rather than as discretionary awards to financially assist the employee. On that basis I thingk the 'double-contract' patter is a bit misleading at least as far as HMRC is concerned. They don't actually need a written contract for the scheme to fail, although it would help enormously if there was one - if a former employee was to say for example that he received £80,000 from the trust as part of his severance settlement, that to my mind would be a strong indication that the 'loan' was in fact a severance payment which should be subject to normal income tax rules, even if the arrangement wasn't actually written into any contract. Likewise, annual bonuses don't in any way fall into the circumstances that an EBT should cover IMO.

I don't know whether the SPL rules mirror the HMRC ones, but I can't see why they wouldn't and a guilty finding under the latter would surely be a strong indication of guilt under the former.

[Caversham Green]

Neil Doncaster in today's Daily Mail

"I am baffled by the CVA/NewCo distinction"

"The distinction between the two is relatively fine.I am baffled as to why such a distinction is drawn"

" As if a CVA does'nt lead to the shedding of debt"

Who is the man trying to kid ? or is it possible he truly is an IMBECILE.

Distinctions between the two Neil. Try a worthwhile offer of say 30 - 40 pence in the pound, an offer in value far in excess of the break up value of the Company.
Or

A derisory offer of about 2 pence in the pound to ordinary creditors who respond by telling the offerer to go do one and a New Company is formed.

Another small difference is with the CVA it is the same Company/legal entity with a NewCo its a new Club. Not much difference eh Neil.

The man truly is out of his depth.

:agree: The obvious difference is in the 'A' of CVA - A=Agreement. The creditors have accepted the debtors proposal. With liquidation the creditors have no say in the matter and are effectively stuffed by the debtor.

I'm not convinced Doncater is just out of his depth though, I think he is deliberately playing down the major differences between the two because he is desperate to keep the huns in the SPL - his bonus probably depends on it.

[greenginger]

:agree: The obvious difference is in the 'A' of CVA - A=Agreement. The creditors have accepted the debtors proposal. With liquidation the creditors have no say in the matter and are effectively stuffed by the debtor.

I'm not convinced Doncater is just out of his depth though, I think he is deliberately playing down the major differences between the two because he is desperate to keep the huns in the SPL - his bonus probably depends on it.


Or, backhander from the Huns fighting fund ! :wink:

[green glory]

Or, backhander from the Huns fighting fund ! :wink:

His desperation to placate the hordes of Mordor suggests implication of some kind. Maybe I'm just cynical.

IMO the sooner we're shot of The Quintessential British Cheats AND Doncaster, the sooner Scottish football will get off it's knees.

[StevieC]

his bonus probably depends on it.

Now there's an interesting point .. I wonder what the answer would be if he was directly asked whether he would be personally affected financially with the Rangers situation and possible collapse of the TV deal he brokered?

:rolleyes:

[down-the-slope]

:agree: The obvious difference is in the 'A' of CVA - A=Agreement. The creditors have accepted the debtors proposal. With liquidation the creditors have no say in the matter and are effectively stuffed by the debtor.

I'm not convinced Doncater is just out of his depth though, I think he is deliberately playing down the major differences between the two because he is desperate to keep the huns in the SPL - his bonus probably depends on it.

:agree: have said many times that the CVA 'dance' is just that..something to pass blame / placate the fans..Green im sure wants a clean NewCo...so the PR machines of Rangers (and to an extent SFA) is to 'sell' the NewCo as business as usual (note the 'we will not lose our history quotes' from Green regardless of vehicle)

NewCo IS liquidation in all but name. Remember the old saying..if it looks like it and smells like it usually is it

[Hibtastic]

:agree: The obvious difference is in the 'A' of CVA - A=Agreement. The creditors have accepted the debtors proposal. With liquidation the creditors have no say in the matter and are effectively stuffed by the debtor.

I'm not convinced Doncater is just out of his depth though, I think he is deliberately playing down the major differences between the two because he is desperate to keep the huns in the SPL - his bonus probably depends on it.

This article would suggest differently:

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/18/SOCCER_Rangers.html&BID=425

[VickMackie]

Does anyone know if they kept them money due to go to charity from thAC Milan game?

[StevieC]

Does anyone know if they kept them money due to go to charity from thAC Milan game?

I'd hazard a guess that any funds of this sort will be directed towards the "fighting fund" rather than the club. That way those nasty creditors and the evil HMRC won't be able to get their hands on it.

[jst1875]

This article would suggest differently:

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/18/SOCCER_Rangers.html&BID=425


taken from the above article ...
Meanwhile, Green told representatives of fans' groups on Thursday night that investors have already committed £20million to the stricken club.

if that is the case then why have they only offered £8.5m to the creditors :confused:

[Caversham Green]

This article would suggest differently:

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/05/18/SOCCER_Rangers.html&BID=425

Rather different when you read everything he has to say though.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-takeover-doncaster-reveals-newco-could-escape-spl-exit-1-2302872

I understand Doncaster is a lawyer by trade and as such I find it hard to believe he is 'baffled' by the distinctions made between CVAs and newcos. A great deal of what he says both in that article and elsewhere seem to be designed to mislead IMO.

[dangermouse]

I think it's the SPL that is investigating the double-contract situation. The SFA is, I think, the appeals body.

That said, the double-contract thing IS, in the main, about tax avoidance. So, in the SFA's eyes, guilt in that case would be a second offence of the same type.

You could argue that if found guilty of double contracts, Rangers being able to field better players that they could afford was match fixing to a certain degree.

[RyeSloan]

Interesting.

I would still wager, though, that the whole point of that situation was to avoid tax.


There doesn't have to be, but in this case there is.

The tax implication is that any income derived from carrying out contractual duties should be taxable. The double contracts issue is that any payments made from playing football should be covered by one approved, registered contract.

In this case, HMRC contend that the EBT payments made to the players were made for playing football (and that the side letters prove this), so in effect the tax case and the double contracts issue overlap completely.

Plus it's a nice political benefit for the SPL/SFA if someone else (the FTT) find them guilty first. Thus I don't expect any move from the football authorities until after the FTT result is in.


Totally agree...my point was really aimed at the SPL in that I don't see the direct correlation between HMRC finding Rangers guilty of tax avoidance in terms of the EBT and the SPL finding them guilty of operating dual contracts.

The two issues are related but separate in terms of offences committed so the findings of one should not be reliant on the other.

In other words, to my mind, the SPL do not and should not be waiting for HMRC to make a tax verdict on the EBT before declaring if Rangers broke SPL rules. I would suggest that getting the facts on the table as quickly as possible would be in everyone’s interest.

[CropleyWasGod]

Totally agree...my point was really aimed at the SPL in that I don't see the direct correlation between HMRC finding Rangers guilty of tax avoidance in terms of the EBT and the SPL finding them guilty of operating dual contracts.

The two issues are related but separate in terms of offences committed so the findings of one should not be reliant on the other.

In other words, to my mind, the SPL do not and should not be waiting for HMRC to make a tax verdict on the EBT before declaring if Rangers broke SPL rules. I would suggest that getting the facts on the table as quickly as possible would be in everyone’s interest.

According to Doncaster in that Sporting Life article, the SPL's lawyers are doing just that. They will have to examinine every contract lodged with them since the SPL started. That will be a long job.

[JeMeSouviens]

Totally agree...my point was really aimed at the SPL in that I don't see the direct correlation between HMRC finding Rangers guilty of tax avoidance in terms of the EBT and the SPL finding them guilty of operating dual contracts.

The two issues are related but separate in terms of offences committed so the findings of one should not be reliant on the other.

In other words, to my mind, the SPL do not and should not be waiting for HMRC to make a tax verdict on the EBT before declaring if Rangers broke SPL rules. I would suggest that getting the facts on the table as quickly as possible would be in everyone’s interest.

Agreement back at ye. :agree:

Think a fair number of facts are coming to a table near you courtesy of Mark Daly of the BBC. :wink:

http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/qs29x/rangers---the-men-who-sold-the-jerseys

[RyeSloan]

According to Doncaster in that Sporting Life article, the SPL's lawyers are doing just that. They will have to examinine every contract lodged with them since the SPL started. That will be a long job.


Agreement back at ye. :agree:

Think a fair number of facts are coming to a table near you courtesy of Mark Daly of the BBC. :wink:

http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/qs29x/rangers---the-men-who-sold-the-jerseys

So by the looks of it the BBC will probably give us the evidence required before the SPL has completed it's rather lengthy investigation.

I take your point CWG re the size of the task but lets be clear it doesn't have to be every contract lodged..if during the investigation they have sample checked a number of contracts and have found evidence of dual contract rules being broken that in itself would be enough to hammer the hun. Do we need to go through every contract for the last 12 years before coming to a conclusion and verdict, would a reasonable percentage across the period not be enough to reflect a systemic culture of cheating and rule breaking?

To be honest the anecdotal evidence does not appear good for Rangers. If they have been paying appearance and bonus money to players without the fact being documented at the SPL via the contracts lodged there then I can only see one outcome, expulsion from the game amid the biggest match fixing scandal ever to be seen in Scotland. Maybe then Rangers will accept that it was not just the action of one man.

[CropleyWasGod]

So by the looks of it the BBC will probably give us the evidence required before the SPL has completed it's rather lengthy investigation.

I take your point CWG re the size of the task but lets be clear it doesn't have to be every contract lodged..if during the investigation they have sample checked a number of contracts and have found evidence of dual contract rules being broken that in itself would be enough to hammer the hun. Do we need to go through every contract for the last 12 years before coming to a conclusion and verdict, would a reasonable percentage across the period not be enough to reflect a systemic culture of cheating and rule breaking?

To be honest the anecdotal evidence does not appear good for Rangers. If they have been paying appearance and bonus money to players without the fact being documented at the SPL via the contracts lodged there then I can only see one outcome, expulsion from the game amid the biggest match fixing scandal ever to be seen in Scotland. Maybe then Rangers will accept that it was not just the action of one man.

Indeed, one instance of double-contracts should, IMO, be enough for a conviction. The more thay can find, the heavier the sentence.

That said, I am intrigued as to how they go about it. They will have the contracts lodged with the SPL. What are they checking them against? Presumably those that RFC hold......are these available? Have they been Enron-type shredded?

[grunt]

Indeed, one instance of double-contracts should, IMO, be enough for a conviction. The more thay can find, the heavier the sentence.

I agree. Didn't Spartans get chucked out of the Scottish Cup for fielding one player who had one signature missing from his registration form?

[Andy Bee]

Indeed, one instance of double-contracts should, IMO, be enough for a conviction. The more thay can find, the heavier the sentence.

That said, I am intrigued as to how they go about it. They will have the contracts lodged with the SPL. What are they checking them against? Presumably those that RFC hold......are these available? Have they been Enron-type shredded?

Surely if evidence was found there would be implications towards the players and agents involved as well as RFC, tax or otherwise?

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely if evidence was found there would be implications towards the players and agents involved as well as RFC, tax or otherwise?

In tax terms, RFC as the employer take responsibility for any under-taxing of employees.

If the players and agents were colluding, however, that would be a different matter. IMO, it would be very difficult to prove.

[Seveno]

Surely if evidence was found there would be implications towards the players and agents involved as well as RFC, tax or otherwise?

Who cares about the players and agents. It's the club that we want erased.

[ScottB]

Looking at hints being dropped by the usual suspects on Twitter, I'm starting to think their goose may just be cooked, Green isn't serious, his secret consortium is a sham and he, Whyte and D&P have been in on it from the start.

A bit conspiracy sounding I know, but consider that Green claims he first made contact with D&P on the 18th of February, so if that's true, why did Dumb & Dumber not shout his name from the rooftops like they did with every other bidder? Why was he the only one to get anonymity? Alex Thomson seems to think D&P rejected bids from 2 others with money that 'made Green look like a pauper.' Now I can only assume that would be total funds they have personally, rather than a value of bid, but still.

The Tax Case blog seems to be hinting at suspecting Green is nothing more than a front for Whyte's endgame, he's there to waste time and ensure liquidation. Not sure how Whyte benefits from that? Perhaps ensuring the death of the current co in the hope that all the investigations go away and Murray's dirty laundry stays buried (note his attempt at an injunction against this BBC expose, which will apparently accuse them of phone hacking Celtic, among other things). Combined of course with the Weegie media still point blank refusing to ask Murray any tough questions, and the refusal of any former Rangers directors to go on camera with Alex Thomson.


Not sure myself, but the more one looks at the big picture, the more this stinks to high heaven. Could all of it be the result of some dark David Murray plan to try and save his own ass?

[McD]

MOONBEAMS with various supporters groups chaired By Mr Charles Green, Sandy Jardine and Jim Hannah.

The Meeting commenced at 5:30 and ran until 6:50. There was an agenda produced by Mr. Green then the floor opened for questions.

1. Season ticket prices.
Despite no increases in the past three years and the desperate need for money coming into the Club, the prices will not be increased for the forthcoming season. An official announcement will be issued soon. The Ticketus deal is over.

2. Meeting with the SFA/ SFA Appeal.
Mr Keen, our Q.C. presented a strong case why the penalties were harsh. The sanctions were not actually in the SFA Rule Books. He stressed we were very likely to lose players. He spoke for one and a quarter hours. The SFA's lawyer then presented his case. Both Mr Green and Sandy Jardine stressed the panel were independent and not "football men". Rangers asked for a quick decision in order that we may plan what to do next. The panel went away for an hour and a half and returned with the verbal decision, to be confirmed in writing, that the decision and sanctions stand

3/4. Deal Structure/ CVA/ Newco and CVA letter issue date.
Mr Green's preferred route is a CVA. Funds are in place to pay the creditors. On or around next Friday Duff and Phelps will write to the creditors with the offer. The creditors then have 14 days to decide if they will accept. If all say yes, Duff and Phelps stand aside and Mr Green pays the creditors, although he will not yet be the new owner. From making their decision, the creditors then have a 28 day cooling off period in which they can change their minds but Mr Green thought it unlikely any would do so having made a decision. Once the debt is settled, Rangers are out of administration. Crucially, the SFA looks upon things differently, and once the creditors accept - not when they get paid - Rangers are, in the SFA's eyes, out of administration.

Scottish football is working to new rules, so it is vital all is settled before the 4th August - or we may face further punishments.

If we go down the newco route, it is along similar lines to Bill Miller's except Mr Green will pay the creditors now. Bill Miller's idea was to pay them off over three or four years.

Mr Green stressed that whatever happens we will not lose the history or the trophies. The Club was founded in 1872 before the days of incorporation. In 1899, we incorporated. In 1981, we re-registered. All with the history intact. All we get is a different number in companies house against our name.

5. Investor information.
Mr Green was looking into the purchase from 18th February. His idea is to have investors owning from 1% to 15%. All 26,000 current fan share holders will be invited to invest and given 2 or 3 years to fund their investment. The press have found out about Kevin McDonald and Freddie Shepherd and approached them. Both have declared an interest in investing but as yet, have not done so. Mr Green has 5 or 6 people who have already committed to invest and who have paid money to be part of the dream. Some are from the Middle East and some are from the Far East. None are Rangers fans but are football fans. Their dream is to fund soccer academies in the Far East and to see Rangers progress in Europe, where the creation of a European League is seen as a reality.

The company will be listed and everyone will be able to see all who invest. At the moment they have asked for privacy.

6. Craig Whyte agreement.
Mt Green has met Mr Whyte on three occasions and has paid him £1 for the Club. He also paid him a second pound so that Mr Whyte could make a 100% profit on the deal. The thing is set in stone and Mr Whyte cannot back out. Mr Green stressed that anything David Murray or Craig Whyte did should be consigned to the history books and we now look forward.

The floor was opened to questions.

Asked what would happen if one, two or three of our recently called up International players got crocked playing for their country and we could not sign anyone because of the embargo, Mr Green and Sandy Jardine expressed their amazement and anger at how the situation may develop. Mr Whyte pointed out to the panel at Hampden that we had three goalkeepers on our books and asked what would happen if they all got serious injury, would we have to field a team without a keeper? No satisfactory answer was forthcoming. They looked at the team sheets and saw almost 40 signed players from 17 years of age up. Sandy Jardine asked them what would happen if all the experienced players left. The answer was that we still had enough on the books to put out a team. Sandy Jardine answered that you cannot blood a youngster too soon. One bad game and he may be finished. But he told the Meeting the people he was talking to were not football people.

Asked if we should plump for Division 3, Mr Green replied that without Rangers there is no SPL and the other Club Chairmen know it. While other clubs fan may want us demoted, their Chairmen are businessmen.

Mr Green stated that while not a test case, if we were Crewe Alexandria or Arbroath, the punishments would not be sever, indeed there may be calls to assist us.

Mr Green stated that there may be a "year of pain" but that we would emerge from it and regain our place. Asked where he saw us in 5 years, he said "top of the League".Mr Green paid great tribute to Ally McCoist, the management team, the players and to Rangers men such as Sandy Jardine and Jim Hannah who had given so much.

Asked about further investors, Mr Green said that he had held meetings today and would hold more tomorrow with Rangers fans keen to invest. They were, he said, major names in Scottish business - and Bluenoses.

Asked about future players Mr Green reminded the meeting that he had built and sold the largest sports agency in the world and still had the contacts. "who would not want to come and play for Rangers?" he asked.

Lastly, Mr Green stressed that it was most important that there should be no disruption to the Cup Final at the weekend. It would not be beneficial to Rangers

------------------------------
some glaring contradictions.... and a lot of pash!!!!!!


Without rangers there is no spl....and in the same meeting talks about a euro league?! Wtf??!!!!

I see he's not shy at adopting the rangers mindset. Cock

[JeMeSouviens]

So by the looks of it the BBC will probably give us the evidence required before the SPL has completed it's rather lengthy investigation.

I take your point CWG re the size of the task but lets be clear it doesn't have to be every contract lodged..if during the investigation they have sample checked a number of contracts and have found evidence of dual contract rules being broken that in itself would be enough to hammer the hun. Do we need to go through every contract for the last 12 years before coming to a conclusion and verdict, would a reasonable percentage across the period not be enough to reflect a systemic culture of cheating and rule breaking?

To be honest the anecdotal evidence does not appear good for Rangers. If they have been paying appearance and bonus money to players without the fact being documented at the SPL via the contracts lodged there then I can only see one outcome, expulsion from the game amid the biggest match fixing scandal ever to be seen in Scotland. Maybe then Rangers will accept that it was not just the action of one man.

Personally, I want them to go back through every match they've played and retrospectively strip them of every honour they ever won while fielding an illegally registered player, but I'm a vindictive ******. :devil:

[ehf]

So by the looks of it the BBC will probably give us the evidence required before the SPL has completed it's rather lengthy investigation.

I take your point CWG re the size of the task but lets be clear it doesn't have to be every contract lodged..if during the investigation they have sample checked a number of contracts and have found evidence of dual contract rules being broken that in itself would be enough to hammer the hun. Do we need to go through every contract for the last 12 years before coming to a conclusion and verdict, would a reasonable percentage across the period not be enough to reflect a systemic culture of cheating and rule breaking?

To be honest the anecdotal evidence does not appear good for Rangers. If they have been paying appearance and bonus money to players without the fact being documented at the SPL via the contracts lodged there then I can only see one outcome, expulsion from the game amid the biggest match fixing scandal ever to be seen in Scotland. Maybe then Rangers will accept that it was not just the action of one man.

They'll be stripped of all honours they "won" during the period of cheating, as well: EUFA will make sure of that.

[ScottB]

They'll be stripped of all honours they "won" during the period of cheating, as well: EUFA will make sure of that.

That's quite a hard one to make stick, given that Juventus eventually got back the titles they had taken off them for match fixing...

[RyeSloan]

That's quite a hard one to make stick, given that Juventus eventually got back the titles they had taken off them for match fixing...

Did they? when did that happen?

Was quite funny though that Inter eventually got fingered for exactly the same goings on that Juve were stripped of their titles for....which were then given to Inter!!

[RyeSloan]

Personally, I want them to go back through every match they've played and retrospectively strip them of every honour they ever won while fielding an illegally registered player, but I'm a vindictive ******. :devil:

Oh dinnae worry me too!! Hence my frustration at the delay in announcing the result of the investigation :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh dinnae worry me too!! Hence my frustration at the delay in announcing the result of the investigation :greengrin

I don't think that the result of the 1979 final will be reversed :greengrin

[Liberal Hibby]

By way of comparison as to how lightly Rangers have got off a Peterhead fisherman has just been fined £1m for landing blackmarket fish:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18117453

Given Rangers turnover a £160k fine pales into insignificance.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't think that the result of the 1979 final will be reversed :greengrin

No, obviously not, that would be ridiculous. A simpler, fairer way to proceed would be that only matches in which current staff took part should be declared void and opponents awarded the win. Whether or not the current staff member scored a winning goal, and whether or not that goal was scored with a flukey overhead kick.

[CropleyWasGod]

No, obviously not, that would be ridiculous. A simpler, fairer way to proceed would be that only matches in which current staff took part should be declared void and opponents awarded the win. Whether or not the current staff member scored a winning goal, and whether or not that goal was scored with a flukey overhead kick.

... and whether or not a current member of staff scored a goal with a shot that took a lucky bobble just before he hit it.:greengrin

[Seveno]

By way of comparison as to how lightly Rangers have got off a Peterhead fisherman has just been fined £1m for landing blackmarket fish:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18117453

Given Rangers turnover a £160k fine pales into insignificance.

They were at that as well ! Cheating ****.

[ancienthibby]

Another 'building block' put in place for the Green Goblin consortium.

Plus ST prices not to go up.

The Bluenosers will be well pleased!:greengrin

Ticketus contract with Rangers 'is being terminated'http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60202000/jpg/_60202643_6738639.jpgMr Green said he had been told of the Ticketus contract termination by the club's administrators
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18119318#story_continues_1)Related Stories

Green's debt-free vision for Gers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18052448)
McCoist hopes recovery can begin (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18052457)
Takeover deal for Rangers agreed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18049325)

Administrators at Rangers Football Club have told Ticketus they are terminating its contract over future season ticket sales, it has been claimed.
The claim was made by Charles Green, who is leading the consortium which is on track to take over the club.
London-based Ticketus are owed £26.7m from a deal struck with chairman Craig Whyte last May for the future sale of three years' worth of season tickets.
Mr Whyte gave personal guarantees to Ticketus over capital issued to Ibrox.
Earlier this month, Ticketus formally launched legal action against him over money it was owed.
The finance firm purchased tickets from the club at the time of the businessman's takeover last May.
Sources close to Ticketus described the apparent move to terminate the contract as "a formality" as it was already being treated as a creditor in a CVA, which implied the ticket deal would no longer stand.
It is understood Ticketus will not appeal against its termination.
Mr Green made the revelation about the Ticketus contract in a statement which followed several meetings with supporters' representatives.
Price freeze"My initial thoughts prior to these meetings was that season tickets prices should be increased as they had not been raised in the last three years," he said.
"However, taking on board the fans' concerns, I can confirm that when my consortium completes the purchase of Rangers and takes over the running of the club, season ticket prices will be frozen for next season.
"The club's administrators have informed me they have written to Ticketus to terminate the agreement that is currently in place with the club and supporters can now take heart from the fact that season ticket sales will be as normal."
He added: "Once we are in a position to issue season ticket renewals, and that will be as soon as possible, I would urge all fans to continue showing the tremendous support they have given to the club."
Mr Green added that in view of the public announcement this week that the Plus Market was to close, the consortium intended to make arrangements to list Rangers Football Club on an alternative market "at the earliest opportunity".
The English venture capitalist is leading a "worldwide consortium" which has agreed an £8.5m deal to buy Rangers.
He has said there were 20 individuals in his consortium from Asia, the Middle East, Far East and the UK.

[jonty]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9104



Figures for each club are:
Hearts
Maximum: £72.3m
Weighted: £16.3m
Minimum: £6.2m

Celtic
Maximum: £46.7m
Weighted: £21.9m
Minimum: £17.4m

Hibernian
Maximum: £34.8m
Weighted: £8.4m
Minimum: £3.6m

Aberdeen
Maximum: £21.1m
Weighted: £5.5m
Minimum: £2.7m

Dundee United
Maximum: £20.8m
Weighted: £5.2m
Minimum: £2.4m

Motherwell
Maximum: £16.7m
Weighted: £4.4m
Minimum: £2.1m

Kilmarnock
Maximum: £5.1m
Weighted: £1.9m
Minimum: £1.3m

Dunfermline
Maximum: £3.4m
Weighted: £1.8m
Minimum: £1.5m

Inverness
Maximum: £1.3m
Weighted: £1.3m
Minimum: £1.3m

St Johnstone
Maximum: £1.1m
Weighted: £1.1m
Minimum: £1.1m

St Mirren
Maximum: £1.1m
Weighted: £1.1m
Minimum: £1.1m

[ancienthibby]

20 investors and the GG can only name 2!!:aok:

Dearie me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18119130

[Just Alf]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9104

I just hope everyone that will be voting on Newco's etc etc see this 1st

[Stevie Reid]

20 investors and the GG can only name 2!!:aok:

Dearie me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18119130

"I can assure fans that it is very easy to raise money, even in this financial market, for an institution like Rangers," Green told Rangers' website.



Aw, well. Shouldn't be difficult to raise £150M and pay what they owe then...

[lapsedhibee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18119130

"a lot of these investors are offshore trusts and individuals who didn't want their name in the press and media because they ... "

... would thereby bring themselves to the attention of tax-collectors? :hmmm:

[DarlingtonHibee]

One for our other finanace guys :greengrin

D and P have advised Ticketetus that the deal is off re season tickets - will they have to try and get their £27m back from Craig Whyte ?

[CropleyWasGod]

One for our other finanace guys :greengrin

D and P have advised Ticketetus that the deal is off re season tickets - will they have to try and get their £27m back from Craig Whyte ?

They have already said... earlier this week, I think.... that they will be pursuing him.

[greenginger]

One for our other finanace guys :greengrin

D and P have advised Ticketetus that the deal is off re season tickets - will they have to try and get their £27m back from Craig Whyte ?


Paul Clark was up at the Court of Session today on Rangers/Ticketus business. Anybody hear if anything interesting was decided. :confused:

[jonty]

Charles Green: #Rangers' turnaround is a 5-10 year plan,"Perhaps egotistically we believe we have the ability to resolve these challenges"


3 years to get back to the spl. 7 years to assemble a squad?

[DarlingtonHibee]

They have already said... earlier this week, I think.... that they will be pursuing him.

But has he not paid £18m to LLoyds to clear the debt ? So he can declare himself bankrupt and walk away as well !

The more we hear the more I think this was a scam from the start that Murray and Whyte agreed on - he would take the heat for a few million.

[CropleyWasGod]

But has he not paid £18m to LLoyds to clear the debt ? So he can declare himself bankrupt and walk away as well !

The more we hear the more I think this was a scam from the start that Murray and Whyte agreed on - he would take the heat for a few million.

This is where it gets a bit messy.

It was one of his companies, RFC Holdings/Wavetower I think, that paid off Lloyds. However, as I understand it, it is him personally (although I may be wrong on that) that personally guaranteed the Ticketus deal.

So... Ticketus sue him. He has a nice wee house in the Heilans, and I think one in the South of France. They'll do nicely, to start with.

[Lungo--Drom]

Here is hopefully what Castle Greyskull will look like within the next year.... :aok:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeSlZhIphgg


I've read a lot of this thread and a lot of the press stories, and reading about the Rangers fans views, Sandy Jardine, Fat Ally and the rest, the conclusion I have come to, after a lot of thought and deliberation is:

Screw the whole damned lot of them and I hope their vile, bigotted, hate filled, self important and cheating club dies a long slow painfull death...:greengrin

[Lungo--Drom]

Watch this and imagine it being the 'big hoose'. It gave me a wee thrill thinking of all those horrible red bricks and blue gates crashing to the ground!

:thumbsup:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nALg1w1IeJo

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

This is where it gets a bit messy.

It was one of his companies, RFC Holdings/Wavetower I think, that paid off Lloyds. However, as I understand it, it is him personally (although I may be wrong on that) that personally guaranteed the Ticketus deal.

So... Ticketus sue him. He has a nice wee house in the Heilans, and I think one in the South of France. They'll do nicely, to start with.

Was he not acting for RFC though, or does the fact he said 'personally' separate him and RFC from this deal?

[grunt]

This is good stuff

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/neil-doncaster-cva-and-newco-whats-the-difference-as-long-as-newco-accepts-oldcos-punishment/

[Moulin Yarns]

The longer it takes, the deeper they get.

Bounced to get it off page 2 :cb

[Spike Mandela]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7WJHdE0__I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Lungo--Drom]

Thanks for that link Grunt, really interesting and I love the bit about "keep the history and titles keep the punishment or avoid the punishment and lose the history." That will cause some gnashing of unbrushed teeth in the picket outside the 'big hoose'. I can just imagine their caveman brains trying to decide, "silverware or SPL, oog oog oog." :D


This is good stuff

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/neil-doncaster-cva-and-newco-whats-the-difference-as-long-as-newco-accepts-oldcos-punishment/

[joe breezy]

Daily ****** reports

"Green’s vision of the future for Rangers sounds too good to be true at times."

Mmmhh....like Craig Whyte


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/20/rangers-in-crisis-charles-green-labels-himself-nanny-mcphee-of-ibrox-club-86908-23866595/

[StevieC]

Daily ****** reports

"Green’s vision of the future for Rangers sounds too good to be true at times."

Mmmhh....like Craig Whyte


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/20/rangers-in-crisis-charles-green-labels-himself-nanny-mcphee-of-ibrox-club-86908-23866595/


"“That’s the moment when the accountant walks in my office with the balance sheet and says ‘Charles, we have all these assets and no debt – and here’s the bank statement with a pile of cash in the bank’.
“Then I’ll disappear (with all the cash) as fast as I appeared."


Fixed a small error in his statement for him.

[Spike Mandela]

Daily ****** reports

"Green’s vision of the future for Rangers sounds too good to be true at times."


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/20/rangers-in-crisis-charles-green-labels-himself-nanny-mcphee-of-ibrox-club-86908-23866595/

Interesting he is still perpetuating the old adage that "it's better for the creditors to get something than nothing." this is where administration basically becomes blackmail. This financial law is all wrong and set up to benefit the debtors especially in cases of football clubs.

The law should be there for justice for creditors imo and should do all it can to recoup money. This newco loophole should be closed and all assets should be sold for the creditors, even if it means demolishing Ibrox, christ you could probably get more in scrap value than in a CVA.

Despite the obvious scandal that is administration there is no way the legal world would create a just law as our financial institutions and city bigwigs know administration is a handy tool for writing off debt.

[ScottB]

Are these ******** dead yet? It's about the only thing that might cheer me up a bit right now...

[PatHead]

King claims he has first option on shares, not Green, Whyte disagrees. The soap continues...... Beginning to cheer up a little as it drags on..............

Rangers director Dave King has told BBC Scotland he has first option on Craig Whyte's shares in the club.
Prospective owner Charles Green has stated that he has an irrevocable deal with Whyte for the transfer of his 85% shareholding in Rangers.
But King says he and Whyte agreed last year he would have first refusal on the shares "at whatever price anyone offers and Whyte is willing to accept".
Whyte told BBC Scotland King's assertion was categorically untrue.
King claims to have come to an agreement with Whyte in Glasgow on 29 September last year and, when told of Whyte's denial, he added: "It was verbally agreed over lunch but is legally valid.
"It suited him at the time and I will hold him to it.
"I have first option on [his] shares and would not forgo this unless I was absolutely certain that any proposed transaction, that excluded me, was in the best interests of the club," he added.
"I have yet to see such a proposal."
King, who is Rangers' second largest shareholder, continued: "I stayed on because I also had my investment and those of the other minority shareholders to protect and I believe that my presence on the board prevented Whyte from getting away with more than he even did.
"The ultimate problem was that he knowingly lied to me and blocked my ability to validate some of his contentions with the club's financial controller. Craig Whyte Rangers' majority shareholder
"I believed that the financial controller had a fiduciary obligation to supply me with information even though it transpired that Whyte had told him not to.
"I was also alert to the fact that Whyte would run out of time and felt that it was better that at least one independent director would be there to protect the interests of the minority shareholders and the fans.
"If I had resigned Whyte would have had carte blanche. The minorities, in my firm view, were defrauded in the initial transaction by Whyte and I intend to seek recourse in that regard once I have access to the Duff & Phelps investigation of the company's affairs."
But when King's comments were put to Whyte on Sunday, he described them as "highly misleading".
"The minority shareholders were no worse off as a result of the initial transaction as one debt simply replaced another," he added.
"Lloyds would likely have put the club into administration last summer if the transaction hadn't happened.
"If the CVA is successful the minority shareholders will retain their shares in a club that will be a debt-free sustainable business and not the basket case that I inherited as a result of the mismanagement of the previous board."
King was one of the club directors identified in the Scottish Football Association's recent Note of Reasons for Rangers' transfer embargo.
He and his former fellow directors were criticised for not doing enough to highlight the non-payment of VAT and PAYE.
On that, King said: "The criticism of me is fair, but John Greig and John McClelland deserve the utmost praise for hanging around as long as they did in the hope that they could somehow make a contribution.
"It was only once they had become completely isolated that they resigned in the hope that this would be a catalyst for greater scrutiny of Whyte's actions.
"I know how gutted they both were - they are unsung heroes to my mind and all Rangers fans should know that they put the club first at all times."

[Just Alf]

Are these ******** dead yet? It's about the only thing that might cheer me up a bit right now...

There's another nail in their coffin coming along on Wed

"BBC Documentary 8pm Wed 23rd - Ibrox Phone Tapping Scandal" ---- allegedly they were tapping wee Fergus and his cronies at Celtic.

Heard about it on twitter after SDM tried and failed to get an injuction.

Will see on Wed if the prog actually happens :cb

[Bishop Hibee]

Are these ******** dead yet? It's about the only thing that might cheer me up a bit right now...

:top marks

[ScottB]

There's another nail in their coffin coming along on Wed

"BBC Documentary 8pm Wed 23rd - Ibrox Phone Tapping Scandal" ---- allegedly they were tapping wee Fergus and his cronies at Celtic.

Heard about it on twitter after SDM tried and failed to get an injuction.

Will see on Wed if the prog actually happens :cb

I had heard that one actually, very interesting to see how the 'how dare you question Saint David' brigade respond in the media.


Loving the share thing, so guy banned from Scottish football for life might have to sell his shares to guy already got no chance of passing a fit and proper person test and would have HMRC rubbing its hands together...

Fantastic :thumbsup:

[Beefster]

There's another nail in their coffin coming along on Wed

"BBC Documentary 8pm Wed 23rd - Ibrox Phone Tapping Scandal" ---- allegedly they were tapping wee Fergus and his cronies at Celtic.

Heard about it on twitter after SDM tried and failed to get an injuction.

Will see on Wed if the prog actually happens :cb

There's a documentary about Rangers on at 8pm on Wednesday but it's about the tax case and Whyte's takeover.

[down-the-slope]

AH...back to the book that will be 'The Joy of Tax'

:greengrin.....this thread will provide the needed relief from the season past and transfer rumors to come

[Moulin Yarns]

How many Huns did you have to fight your way through on Saturday??

[John_the_angus_hibby]

Now that pesky final is over with, back to the real issue! :)

[Gus Fring]

Am I right in saying today is the day we find out if a CVA is agreed?

Update: Suppose to be today but will now be later in the week.

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/102416-rangers-crisis-financial-advisor-behind-greens-consortium-named/

[ballengeich]

Am I right in saying today is the day we find out if a CVA is agreed?

Not quite. The amount the creditors will be offered is supposed to be submitted today. They have until June 6th to agree or not.

Edit - I see D&P have just missed another deadline - what a surprise.

[Gus Fring]

Also, apparently if a CVA is not agreed then the shares stay with Craig Whyte.

Quote from Charles Green:

"That contract between Craig Whyte and Sevco, the bid vehicle, is binding. Err, the only way that contract would terminate, is in the event the CVA wasn't approved"

[jonty]

:hmmm:

TOMOBLOG later: did Rangers Administrators ignore a bidder with more than £600 million in funds?

[Caversham Green]

Interesting he is still perpetuating the old adage that "it's better for the creditors to get something than nothing." this is where administration basically becomes blackmail. This financial law is all wrong and set up to benefit the debtors especially in cases of football clubs.

The law should be there for justice for creditors imo and should do all it can to recoup money. This newco loophole should be closed and all assets should be sold for the creditors, even if it means demolishing Ibrox, christ you could probably get more in scrap value than in a CVA.

Despite the obvious scandal that is administration there is no way the legal world would create a just law as our financial institutions and city bigwigs know administration is a handy tool for writing off debt.

To be fair, the intention behind administration is to make the best out of a bad situation. Companies get into financial difficulties for all sorts of reasons, not all of them are avoidable, and the alternative to administration is to close the company down, which can often get the creditors less than they would get out of a CVA. It also means all the staff of the debtor company would lose their jobs. A CVA proposal is (or should be) the administrators saying 'You're not going to get all your money but we believe this is a better return than you'd get from liquidation'. If the creditors disagree they can vote against it, but blackmail shouldn't really be an option as the law stands.

The problem is in the way it is sometimes operated and enforced - in the case of Rangers, I have a feeling that Green's comments could be an own goal precisely because they do feel like blackmail. After paying the administrators fees and any preferred creditors there's going to be precious little for the CVA pot so the difference between that and liquidation is unlikely to be very much if anyand Green's comments are likely to engender a bit of bad feeling among some of the creditors and that might just point them towards the L button.

As far as a newco is concerned, again it is often the best way out of the situation a company finds itself in, although a 'pre-pack' arrangement often does look pre-meditated and I thing the government and HMRC are looking at ways of tightening that particular aspect up. There's an added dimension in football though, in that Rangers have gained an unfair advantage over other clubs by spending beyond their means (the amount they withheld from HMRC over 10 months is more than the annual turnover of the third and fourth biggest clubs in the SPL combined) but that is for the football authorities to deal with rather than the government or HMRC.

[grunt]

There's an added dimension in football though, in that Rangers have gained an unfair advantage over other clubs by spending beyond their means (the amount they withheld from HMRC over 10 months is more than the annual turnover of the third and fourth biggest clubs in the SPL combined) but that is for the football authorities to deal with rather than the government or HMRC.
Welcome back to our own Mr Green. The unfair advantage point is well made, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for the SFA to "deal with" it.

[Caversham Green]

Welcome back to our own Mr Green. The unfair advantage point is well made, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for the SFA to "deal with" it.

I agree, and that's the frustrating thing about the whole issue. It's up to us as non-Rangers fans to put as much pressure as we can on the SFA - and more particularly the SPL - but whether that's going to be enough remains to be seen.

[ancienthibby]

:hmmm:

Donald Trump!:aok:

[Lungo--Drom]

Rock'n'roll brer Hibby!!! That's my fave Them track!!! Woo hoo!! :not worth

My fave lyric in it is, "Yonder stands your orphan with his gun, crying like a fire in the sun."

That's what Der Hun fans are doing BTW, crying like a fire in the sun... :protest:

And "Your lover has just walked through the door, he's taken all the blankets from the floor." If that's not a brilliant analogy for Craig Whyte then I don't know what is! :aok:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7WJHdE0__I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Lungo--Drom]

This will cheer you up if you haven't seen it yet. Makes me cry with laughter every time. SUPERB COMEDY GENIUS!!! :not worth


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8x_59EjZOs :greengrin :greengrin :greengrin


Are these ******** dead yet? It's about the only thing that might cheer me up a bit right now...

[Lungo--Drom]

:cb Totally forgot about that, and seemingly so did they!!! :faf:


How many Huns did you have to fight your way through on Saturday??

[grunt]

A black day for Whyte

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/102520-rangers-owner-whyte-fails-to-overturn-court-order-for-86000-roofing-bill/

[grunt]

Rock'n'roll brer Hibby!!! That's my fave Them track!!! Woo hoo!! :not worth


It may well be your fave Them track, but it is of course an original song by the one and only Bob Dylan.

[Brando7]

Am I right in saying today is the day we find out if a CVA is agreed?

Update: Suppose to be today but will now be later in the week.

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/102416-rangers-crisis-financial-advisor-behind-greens-consortium-named/

Joint administrator Paul Clark previously stated a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) proposal funded by the consortium would be put to creditors on Monday, but a spokesman for Duff and Phelps confirmed that the offer would not be sent out until later in the week.

That be another deadline missed lmao

[jgl07]

Rock'n'roll brer Hibby!!! That's my fave Them track!!! Woo hoo!! :not worth

My fave lyric in it is, "Yonder stands your orphan with his gun, crying like a fire in the sun."

That's what Der Hun fans are doing BTW, crying like a fire in the sun... :protest:

And "Your lover has just walked through the door, he's taken all the blankets from the floor." If that's not a brilliant analogy for Craig Whyte then I don't know what is!

Aye and 'The vagabond who’s rapping at your door' is probably Charles Green.

Bob Dylan can certainly predict events. His 1965 song Maggie's Farm spelled out the future under Thatcher fifteen years later!

[leither17]

By Alasdair Lamont
BBC Scotland

Rangers could start next season as a new company in the Scottish Premier League without incurring any sanctions - such as a points deduction or fine.
A vote will take place next week to decide what should happen to clubs who come out of administration in this way as "a new company".
Fans of other clubs have been demanding tough sanctions.
But SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: "Newcos have been allowed within UK football for many years."
Rangers hope to exit administration via a Company Voluntary Arrangement under the consortium led by Charles Green.
But the former Sheffield United chief executive and his group may seek a "newco" route if such a proposal is rejected by creditors.
"Newco is typically the way businesses in general escape from administration," Doncaster told BBC Scotland.
"It's far more common than a CVA.
"So I am not entirely sure why a distinction is made between the two routes out of administration."
By definition, though, creditors must agree for a CVA to be successful, whereas a newco gives them no say.
SPL clubs will meet at Hampden Park on 30 May to debate new financial fair play rules, having twice delayed voting on the proposals.
Among the proposals on the table to deal with a newco are 10-point deductions over two seasons and 75% reductions in SPL revenue over three seasons.
A minimum of eight clubs must vote in favour of the point deductions for that resolution to be carried, while 11 votes are required for the imposition of the financial penalty.
If approved, the rule changes will take effect immediately but will not be retrospective.

[Hibs Class]

& the PR campaign to ensure they enter next season unscathed in terms of sanctions gathers momentum :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18148989

[jonty]

:hmmm:

And here's Alex Thomsons latest
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/revealed-rejected-bid-buy-rangers/1593

[Saorsa]

& the PR campaign to ensure they enter next season unscathed in terms of sanctions gathers momentum :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18148989Every time I see a picture of that ****er I think how much I'd like tae knock that imbecilic grin of his ****in' stupid smug face with a baseball bat.

[joe breezy]

And here's Alex Thomsons latest
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/revealed-rejected-bid-buy-rangers/1593

Some people on kerrydale street thinking that's some kind of wind up but Thomson saying that the guy did show documents...

Bizarre, I just want them to die quickly - that Doncaster guy gives me the creeps, as do the Huns

[ScottB]

The latest Thomo blog definitely lending credence to the theory that this is all a stitch up, with Green, D&P, Whyte and maybe even Murray in on it from the start.

Surely the creditors should be looking to take action here? If D&P ignored a potentially much larger bid.

[Sylar]

By Alasdair Lamont
BBC Scotland

Rangers could start next season as a new company in the Scottish Premier League without incurring any sanctions - such as a points deduction or fine.
A vote will take place next week to decide what should happen to clubs who come out of administration in this way as "a new company".
Fans of other clubs have been demanding tough sanctions.
But SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: "Newcos have been allowed within UK football for many years."
Rangers hope to exit administration via a Company Voluntary Arrangement under the consortium led by Charles Green.
But the former Sheffield United chief executive and his group may seek a "newco" route if such a proposal is rejected by creditors.
"Newco is typically the way businesses in general escape from administration," Doncaster told BBC Scotland.
"It's far more common than a CVA.
"So I am not entirely sure why a distinction is made between the two routes out of administration."
By definition, though, creditors must agree for a CVA to be successful, whereas a newco gives them no say.
SPL clubs will meet at Hampden Park on 30 May to debate new financial fair play rules, having twice delayed voting on the proposals.
Among the proposals on the table to deal with a newco are 10-point deductions over two seasons and 75% reductions in SPL revenue over three seasons.
A minimum of eight clubs must vote in favour of the point deductions for that resolution to be carried, while 11 votes are required for the imposition of the financial penalty.
If approved, the rule changes will take effect immediately but will not be retrospective.

How many of them are granted immediate access to the top leagues???

Doncaster and the rest of the SPL can go **** themselves :agree:

[IWasThere2016]

how many of them are granted immediate access to the top leagues???

Doncaster and the rest of the spl can go **** themselves :agree:

doncaster is a 5-star dickhead!!!

[Saorsa]

doncaster is a 5-star dickhead!!!He's in a league of his own with 10 stars, that *******

[joe breezy]

There's supposed to be quite a bit of new scandal revealed in the BBC documentary on Wednesday including phone hacking...

[greenginger]

If there is to be no difference in sanctions for exiting admin. by a CVA or a New CLUB ( to hell with this NewCo name, its a new football club, so lets all start calling a spade a shovel ) what is the point in offering the creditors anything at all.

Offer just enough to cover D and P's fees and change for the bus fare and bye, bye to the toxic creditors, and hello shiny new debt free club with millions to spend on a new squad ( I know that won't happen because of the SFA sanctions ) but as far as Doncaster is concerned it would all be fine.

That situation would leave every other football club in Scotland vulnerable to having their creditors calling in loans and overdrafts and being forced to pay for supplies and services up front. Any kind of credit or financial planning would be history in Scottish Football just because Doncaster wants his bonus/bung for making sure there is a "strong new club called Rangers " in the SPL next season.

[Bishop Hibee]

Doncaster is a grade A prick. Scottish football is finished if a newco enters the SPL with no sanctions.

[SteveHFC]

Doncaster can simply go and **** himself :aok:

[Macaroon]

Really haven't been following this as much as I should have been. Is there anyone feeling in-the-know enough to give me a nice, rounded, succinct timeline of the events since the administration began? Key events, important things to note, likely outcomes etc. Would be a nice wee checkpoint, if you will, to people who haven't been paying enough attention to keep up :cb

[Kaiser1962]

If there is to be no difference in sanctions for exiting admin. by a CVA or a New CLUB ( to hell with this NewCo name, its a new football club, so lets all start calling a spade a shovel ) what is the point in offering the creditors anything at all.

Offer just enough to cover D and P's fees and change for the bus fare and bye, bye to the toxic creditors, and hello shiny new debt free club with millions to spend on a new squad ( I know that won't happen because of the SFA sanctions ) but as far as Doncaster is concerned it would all be fine.

That situation would leave every other football club in Scotland vulnerable to having their creditors calling in loans and overdrafts and being forced to pay for supplies and services up front. Any kind of credit or financial planning would be history in Scottish Football just because Doncaster wants his bonus/bung for making sure there is a "strong new club called Rangers " in the SPL next season.


Doncaster must live in a parrallell dimension. Its frightening that this man graduated university and it's embarassing that he is chief executive of the SPL. Why didnt Woolworth's consult him for advice?

[TheEastTerrace]

There have been enough whispers on the net that suggest Wednesday's BBC doc on Rangers may just take this to a whole new level.....

[down-the-slope]

& the PR campaign to ensure they enter next season unscathed in terms of sanctions gathers momentum :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18148989

:agree: exactly what I thought...actually nothing new in that (he said this last week) but now the CF is out the way is back to easing rangers back in any old way....there is no explination as to how or why such a 'free' return would happen

[erskine-hibby]

If there is to be no difference in sanctions for exiting admin. by a CVA or a New CLUB ( to hell with this NewCo name, its a new football club, so lets all start calling a spade a shovel ) what is the point in offering the creditors anything at all.

Offer just enough to cover D and P's fees and change for the bus fare and bye, bye to the toxic creditors, and hello shiny new debt free club with millions to spend on a new squad ( I know that won't happen because of the SFA sanctions ) but as far as Doncaster is concerned it would all be fine.

That situation would leave every other football club in Scotland vulnerable to having their creditors calling in loans and overdrafts and being forced to pay for supplies and services up front. Any kind of credit or financial planning would be history in Scottish Football just because Doncaster wants his bonus/bung for making sure there is a "strong new club called Rangers " in the SPL next season.

:agree::agree:

I they don't make the correct decision and boot them out, this could easily be the end of professional football in Scotland as we know it. The question should be one club, or all clubs??

[PaulSmith]

:agree::agree:

I they don't make the correct decision and boot them out, this could easily be the end of professional football in Scotland as we know it. The question should be one club, or all clubs??


If this happens then lines of credit will stop overnight, football clubs will be put into the same category as the Irish housing market by all the major banks that have SPL account holders. In essence I do not think that you can over estimate the effect that this would have.

Is Neil Doncaster fit to run the SPL?

[Saorsa]

If this happens then lines of credit will stop overnight, football clubs will be put into the same category as the Irish housing market by all the major banks that have SPL account holders. In essence I do not think that you can over estimate the effect that this would have.

Is Neil Doncaster fit to run the SPL?He isnae fit tae run the tombola at a village fair

[snooky]

If that Newco baloney goes through then we needn't bother getting any new players.

All the Scottish clubs should just shut up shop and call it a day ......... Endsville.

ps Doesn't Doncaster have the kind of face you would never tire smacking?

[SteveHFC]

http://oi47.tinypic.com/96yqtk.jpg

[Saorsa]

http://oi47.tinypic.com/96yqtk.jpgHe looks like a spitting image puppet before he's even been caricatured

[cabbageandribs1875]

Every time I see a picture of that ****er I think how much I'd like tae knock that imbecilic grin of his ****in' stupid smug face with a baseball bat.



here, gie him one fae me anaw

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WEoFWdHBr78/Ssz2k6imBEI/AAAAAAAAAAM/0UdkJypBMyU/s320/baseball-bats-what-is-your-choice.jpg

[ScottB]

If this happens then lines of credit will stop overnight, football clubs will be put into the same category as the Irish housing market by all the major banks that have SPL account holders. In essence I do not think that you can over estimate the effect that this would have.

Is Neil Doncaster fit to run the SPL?

Didn't Alex Thomson suggest Lloyds have sent letters to every SPL club?

The rush to 'save' Rangers without stopping to think just what that will entail will likely doom the game in this country.

[Hibs On Tour]

Neil Doncaster - remember the name because he's gonna be the guy who puts the final nail in the coffin of Scottish football.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18148989

Completely ignores any and all issue of sporting integrity while conveniently forgetting that under their own articles of association the UEFA Standard License *cannot* be transferred between different legal entities. Deal is clearly being done behind the scenes ready to be unveiled whenever they say the vote is taking place.

Rangers will be kept happy, TV will be kept happy, other clubs will be bought off with a mixture of increased share of TV money, SPL money and token penalties for a newco but rest assured he's not coming out with this for a good of his health. Complete cock of a man and after that frankly shameful 'performance' by the carefree ****s that took to the field in our shirts on Sat, at present I am completely and utterly scunnered with Scottish football. At present I don't care if I never see another game to be honest. I know that'll pass but at the moment I just feel sick about the lot of it... :grr::rules::brickwall

[Gez1875]

the mans a clown, thats all that can be said about him, he has no idea of the financial implications if he allows this to go ahead with boycotts of the scottish game, we will c 40 odd clubs die to keep rangers and celtic happy, he's gonna do himself out of his job!!!! coz there will be no league left to run!!

[joe breezy]

Neil Doncaster - remember the name because he's gonna be the guy who puts the final nail in the coffin of Scottish football.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18148989

Completely ignores any and all issue of sporting integrity while conveniently forgetting that under their own articles of association the UEFA Standard License *cannot* be transferred between different legal entities. Deal is clearly being done behind the scenes ready to be unveiled whenever they say the vote is taking place.

Rangers will be kept happy, TV will be kept happy, other clubs will be bought off with a mixture of increased share of TV money, SPL money and token penalties for a newco but rest assured he's not coming out with this for a good of his health. Complete cock of a man and after that frankly shameful 'performance' by the carefree ****s that took to the field in our shirts on Sat, at present I am completely and utterly scunnered with Scottish football. At present I don't care if I never see another game to be honest. I know that'll pass but at the moment I just feel sick about the lot of it... :grr::rules::brickwall

There's more still to come on this and Doncaster will be powerless...

Don't worry yet

[cad]

Do you know it took 6 months to appoint Doncaster from an International field ,by far the best candidate ,
we are in good hands , we couldn't do better ,Scottish Footballs man to take us forward ,we are on a winner with this guy ,
the futures bright ,...pash......
Oh !!!! wait to you find out who appointed him , thats another cracker


Doncaster appointed new SPL chief






http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46028000/jpg/_46028089_neil_doncaster_512.jpg

Doncaster ready for SPL learning curve


The Scottish Premier League has appointed Neil Doncaster as its new chief executive.The 39-year-old, who served as Norwich City chief executive until May, will work alongside chairman Lex Gold, who has plans to retire.
Englishman Doncaster has also sat on the boards of both the Football Association and Football League.
"I've worked in football for 15 years and I'm excited about playing a part in developing the Scottish game," he said.
"The SPL already has excellent standing in European football, but like all football organisations it faces many complex issues and challenges.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif







"I am looking forward to working hard with the board, our member clubs, our partners and the SPL staff to continue to improve our competition and push Scottish football forward." :fibber:

Gold, Hibernian chairman Rod Petrie and Rangers chief executive Martin Bain formed the SPL sub-committee that carried out the recruitment process over the past six months.
The SPL chairman said: "We have been engaged in a detailed recruitment process for some time now. The role attracted international interest.
"Neil was the unanimous choice of those involved in the process. He has had excellent experience in club football with Norwich City and with his involvement with the FA and the Football League.

"That experience will hold him in good stead to lead the SPL team and deal with the challenges that lie ahead.":rolleyes:

[PaulSmith]

Lol, another Petrie appointment ;)

[Ozyhibby]

Doncaster has clearly been sent out to gage opinion so at the risk of repeating myself, if Rangers are back in the SPL next season then I will never be back.
There is only one thing that would get me back would be a meaningful change in the form of a salary cap that brought about genuine sporting integrity.

[The Falcon]

Doncaster has clearly been sent out to gage opinion so at the risk of repeating myself, if Rangers are back in the SPL next season then I will never be back.
There is only one thing that would get me back would be a meaningful change in the form of a salary cap that brought about genuine sporting integrity.


Again where would you pitch the salary cap? Would it be at a level to suit Celtic, us or Stranraer? It could be argued if you wanted a genuinely even field the cap would have to be affordable to all the clubs in the Scottish Leagues.

[cad]

The latest Thomo blog definitely lending credence to the theory that this is all a stitch up, with Green, D&P, Whyte and maybe even Murray in on it from the start.

Surely the creditors should be looking to take action here? If D&P ignored a potentially much larger bid.



Conspiracy theories how about , the final bit in the jigsaw could it be conceivable that Doncaster is in there to , a very sympathetic ear ,
he seems to be throwing a lot of weight behind Rangers an inside man so to speak.

[MyJo]

How can it be justified that rangers will be allowed to stay in the spl if they start a new company yet livingston were relegated to the third division just for starting the process of liquidating the club???

Corrupt to the bloody core and the laughing stock of world football

[greenginger]

Again where would you pitch the salary cap? Would it be at a level to suit Celtic, us or Stranraer? It could be argued if you wanted a genuinely even field the cap would have to be affordable to all the clubs in the Scottish Leagues.


Any salary cap has to be on an agreed percentage of turnover and how it is spent would have to be up to individual clubs.

The UEFA Financial Fair Play rules coming into force were meant to enforce a wage cap of sorts but will be totally useless if Hearts are allowed to get away with their Accountancy scam.

£ 8 million of freshly laundered money from a Panama Offshore company added to the Yams profit and loss account and hey-presto a massive loss is a profit and they " Self-Certify " they are fully UEFA compliant. Craig Thomson's twin brother ( he actually has a twin named Alan which is scary in itself ) or some other jobsworth at the SFA ticks the boxes and licenses are issued.

[ScottB]

Again where would you pitch the salary cap? Would it be at a level to suit Celtic, us or Stranraer? It could be argued if you wanted a genuinely even field the cap would have to be affordable to all the clubs in the Scottish Leagues.

A percentage of turnover, or the Championship style loss / investment caps would work.

[calmac12000]

It seems once again we have a case of deja vue. The required dis-information is being spun , this time by Donkey Doncaster. As many people have said, if Rangers are allowed back into the SPL without any sanctions, then the whole game's a bogey.
Ipso facto, I've got better things to do with my hard earned than perpetuate what is essentially a fraud.

[Sudds_1]

Doncaster has clearly been sent out to gage opinion so at the risk of repeating myself, if Rangers are back in the SPL next season then I will never be back.
There is only one thing that would get me back would be a meaningful change in the form of a salary cap that brought about genuine sporting integrity.


I went through that initially.............then realised it would hurt my team more than those goat sh**ging eejits .

So.........if it happens, I'll just boycott Huns games,

[greenginger]

I went through that initially.............then realised it would hurt my team more than those goat sh**ging eejits .

So.........if it happens, I'll just boycott Huns games,


And, taking a leaf out of the Huns book, boycott THEIR sponsors ! :greengrin and let their sponsors know it.

[Just Alf]

MANCHESTER businessman Mike McDonald is to pull out of Charles Green’s Rangers takeover because a ban on transfers has scuppered his plans to make millions onAlly McCoist’s summer signing targets.
McDonald last night confirmed he will not now help fund the buyout unless Green can somehow overturn the SFA’s 12-month embargo.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/22/rangers-in-crisis-tycoon-mike-mcdonald-quits-charles-green-s-takeover-team-over-sfa-transfer-ban-86908-23868604/

:cb

[Caversham Green]

And, taking a leaf out of the Huns book, boycott THEIR sponsors ! :greengrin and let their sponsors know it.

I'm way ahead on that one, I started my boycott of Tennent's lager about thirty years ago.

Mind you, that's more to do with it being gassed-up, watered-down catspee than anything to do with Rangers.

[Moulin Yarns]

Apologies if this has been posted

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/revealed-rejected-bid-buy-rangers/1593

I wonder if he might be interested in Hibs instead. :cb

[dangermouse]

I'm way ahead on that one, I started my boycott of Tennent's lager about thirty years ago.

Mind you, that's more to do with it being gassed-up, watered-down catspee than anything to do with Rangers.

My mate calls it fizzy piss

[grunt]

Apologies if this has been posted
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/revealed-rejected-bid-buy-rangers/1593
I wonder if he might be interested in Hibs instead. :cb

TBH I'm not sure he is any better for them than Green.
Apparently the registered office of one of his companies is a suburban house in Manchester somewhere...

[grunt]

Latest from RTC - still one of the best blogs on the topic

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/doncaster-dooms-spl/

[down-the-slope]

MANCHESTER businessman Mike McDonald is to pull out of Charles Green’s Rangers takeover because a ban on transfers has scuppered his plans to make millions onAlly McCoist’s summer signing targets.
McDonald last night confirmed he will not now help fund the buyout unless Green can somehow overturn the SFA’s 12-month embargo.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/22/rangers-in-crisis-tycoon-mike-mcdonald-quits-charles-green-s-takeover-team-over-sfa-transfer-ban-86908-23868604/

:cb

I'm sure its all perfectly leagal and within football rules :rolleyes: but it does sound mighty like the stuff that went on with agents owning Tevez...with an individual 'owning' wholly of partly a player the pressure is then there to move them on for profit asap...
...

[jgl07]

I went through that initially.............then realised it would hurt my team more than those goat sh**ging eejits .

So.........if it happens, I'll just boycott Huns games,

I will just boycott Leagues containing a Newco Huns side.

[CallumLaidlaw]

#stjohnstone chairman Steve Brown says he WOUDLN'T vote for a newco Rangers to be admitted into the SPL sanction free

[JeMeSouviens]

#stjohnstone chairman Steve Brown says he WOUDLN'T vote for a newco Rangers to be admitted into the SPL sanction free

Coupled with Doncaster's pish yesterday, you've got to wonder if the SPL strategy is now:

- fly a kite for New Huns with no sanctions, cue outrage
- reintroduce the sanctions (but still allow New Huns), attempt to seem tough?

Spinning it both ways. *****. :rolleyes:

[hibs0666]

Latest from RTC - still one of the best blogs on the topic

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/doncaster-dooms-spl/

Interesting that player beneficiaries are now being named. I wonder how Mr. Nerlinger is taking to being outed, whether he will take any action and whether he has a letter of comfort from der hun that he will in no way be liable for any tax on this payment.

[PaulSmith]

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/st-johnstone/102749-st-johnstone-chairman-says-no-to-rangers-newco-without-sanctions/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Lofarl]

Aye but he will still drop his knickers to allow the cheats in.

[Treadstone]

Latest from RTC - still one of the best blogs on the topic

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/doncaster-dooms-spl/

Read this latest one today . While I agree with the author and the tone when he first set out his blog he said and I quote "However, this blog will endeavour to be dispassionate and factual" looks like the first one went out the window some time ago. My point is his interest is as a Celtic fan first and a taxpayer second . Nothing wrong with that but don't pretend it is the other way round when clearly it is not .

[ScottB]

Read this latest one today . While I agree with the author and the tone when he first set out his blog he said and I quote "However, this blog will endeavour to be dispassionate and factual" looks like the first one went out the window some time ago. My point is his interest is as a Celtic fan first and a taxpayer second . Nothing wrong with that but don't pretend it is the other way round when clearly it is not .

As this farce reaches its conclusion, with the powers at be determined to get Rangers through this with as little, if any punishments whatsoever, I wouldn't blame him / her for being increasingly angry and frustrated at both the situation, plus the continued wilful ignorance in the main stream media and that rather than welcome the blogs efforts to find the truth, he / she probably gets a never ending torrent abuse from moron Rangers fans.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Gold, Hibernian chairman Rod Petrie and Rangers chief executive Martin Bain formed the SPL sub-committee that carried out the recruitment process over the past six months.
The SPL chairman said: "We have been engaged in a detailed recruitment process for some time now. The role attracted international interest.
"Neil was the unanimous choice of those involved in the process. He has had excellent experience in club football with Norwich City and with his involvement with the FA and the Football League.

"That experience will hold him in good stead to lead the SPL team and deal with the challenges that lie ahead.":rolleyes:





by f*** petrie can pick um eh jeeeeezus

[blackpoolhibs]

by f*** petrie can pick um eh jeeeeezus

I he's a tremendous record at the important appointments.

[snooky]

FFS, the oldest political trick in the book.
i.e. Pre-budget the goverment leaks that petrol is going up 20p a gallon - result: outrage
Come the budget, petrol goes up 10p a gallon - result : the populus say "Phew, that's not so bad"

Change the above to the RFC situation
End of 2011-12 season - Let it out that Rangers Newco can come into SPL with no sanctions - result : outrage
Before start of 2012-13 season - Announce Rangers Newco accepted into SPL with some sanctions - result : "Well, I suppose that's okay, better than no sanctions"

Dust hands, job done.

Rangers are happy ....... and so are the rest of their SPL vassals

Here they are -> :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

[Lungo--Drom]

Me too :agree: If this happens then I will cease to recognise the Huns as a team and will not go to any match at ER that the fraudulent entity takes part in.
I never went to the 'big hoose' anyway, I'd need so much garlic in my pockets I wouldn't fit through the turnstiles :lolrangers:


I went through that initially.............then realised it would hurt my team more than those goat sh**ging eejits .

So.........if it happens, I'll just boycott Huns games,

[Littlest Hobo]

Doncaster has clearly been sent out to gage opinion so at the risk of repeating myself, if Rangers are back in the SPL next season then I will never be back.
There is only one thing that would get me back would be a meaningful change in the form of a salary cap that brought about genuine sporting integrity.



I agree, the only thing that would get me back is the guarantee of a level playing field. I'm no being taken for a mug anymore.:bitchy:

[Saorsa]

Doncaster has clearly been sent out to gage opinion so at the risk of repeating myself, if Rangers are back in the SPL next season then I will never be back.
There is only one thing that would get me back would be a meaningful change in the form of a salary cap that brought about genuine sporting integrity.This

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I always knew the SPL was incompetent and struggled to make rational decisions but after hearing this I genuinely believe they are corrupt.

I will boycott castle grayskul but it won't make much difference as I've only been twice and hated giving those bigoted cheating ****bags money both times.

Boycotting Huns games at ER doesn't seem to make much sense as it ultimately only hurts hibs although unfortunately it seems necessary to get the point across. Assuming there are others, let's see how that affects the revenue from rangers staying in the SPL.

Neil Doncaster - you are a corrupt ****ing idiot and are ruining our game. You have no understanding of sporting integrity and have no concept of what is the right thing to do. You're totally incompetent and utterly stupid. Now **** off and lets have someone with honesty and common sense, two qualities that should be prerequisits for any job you clearly do not have. ****er.

[snooky]

It may well be hurting our own club by boycotting them v rangers but boycotting what exactly?
We'd only be there to promote rangers in a stitched up league.
We'd be better resigning from the spl in protest and go to the third division instead.
Integrity over cash.
I'll wait for an outcome before deciding what to do.

Maybe it would have been better (not financially of course) to have been relegated.
At least we would be playing against bona fide teams, some who may have been naughty it the past but took their punishment like men..

[Brando7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18170192?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sportsound

Take your nose out doncasters ass Mr Johnston

[Saorsa]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18170192?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sportsound

Take your nose out doncasters ass Mr Johnstonwhat a ****in' ****er, what hope is there for Scottish fitba with bellends like him and donkeycaster involved in the game. I'd be ****in' raging if the chairman of my club came out with stuff like that. I'd be interested tae ken what the killie fans think of this tool bending over for the stickies.

[snooky]

"Also, some people in football have overlooked the fact that Rangers were penalised 10 points, the maximum penalty under SPL rules, which effectively ended their challenge for the league title."


Brilliant! :faf::faf::faf:

Mind you, for years of cheating, fraud & the recent intimidation, the ten point penalty does seem a bit on the hefty side when you think of it.

[Jones28]

Ahh here we go...

You'd never have thought that both the SPL and an indebted club would bend over backwards for Rangers.

Anyone for sporting integrity? :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

We need the SPL and SFA to understand the consequences if they allow Newco Rangers back into the top league etc.

Not one with the usual emotive, partisan sentiments, but an accurate and politically weighty statement that can gather support across Scotland and influence the decision makers.

Now, we've got loads of intelligent members on hibs.net so who'll take this on?

It needs to be done quickly though.

Admins: Please allow this to run as a separate thread for a while. If it's merged with the big thread, it will be lost and won't happen and I really do believe we need it.

[R'Albin]

We need the SPL and SFA to understand the consequences if they allow Newco Rangers back into the top league etc.

Not one with the usual emotive, partisan sentiments, but an accurate and politically weighty statement that can gather support across Scotland and influence the decision makers.

Now, we've got loads of intelligent members on hibs.net so who'll take this on?

It needs to be done quickly though.

Admins: Please allow this to run as a separate thread for a while. If it's merged with the big thread, it will be lost and won't happen and I really do believe we need it.

They obviously do a good job of hiding themselves then :greengrin

All joking aside I totally agree, the petitions done so far have been blatantly bias and would not be taken seriously by any authorities.

Edit - They did what they set out to do though and got our opinions heard though, I may add.

[Ozyhibby]

I would offer to do it but I'm no good at writing and I hate those Hun b*******. there is no way I could be objective.

[Ryan91]

Maybe if we could get an email for Neil Doncaster, we could send him emails telling him where to shove his "CVA and Newco are the same" idea.

[hibee92]

I think what we need to aim towards is getting national attention. Focusing this matter within hibs.net will, unfortunately, not grasp enough attention. In saying that, starting off a petition here and shipping it off to other forums (Pie and bovril must be targetted for example) wouldn't be a bad idea.

The best way to go about this is to use this thread to raise a number of points to show the disgust towards the notion of a newco being granted immediate submission to the SPL.

Formerly punished clubs should be massively involved in this, Livingston, Dundee, Motherwell, and (although more problematic) Gretna. The fans of these clubs and any "higher uppers" should have a say in this matter.

If possible, clubs from England that have suffered from the same punishments could be contacted purely for the fans perspective in order to show a bit of pressure.

All the points raised should then be drafted into a petition of some sort and shipped off to the other forums.

One pivotal point I'd raise before any of this is started is that it is very VERY rare for a petition to kick off without some form of infuential 'named' backing. By which I mean someone with experience in Scottish football and a well respected relatively big name.

I also think that the possiblity of a Scottish football boycott should a newco be entered would turn a few heads.

Just to get the ball rolling :greengrin

[Togs91]

This may be a rediculous statement, so ill apologise now! A petition sounds like a great idea and could work, and i beleive you would have to have some sort of 'football celebrity', a head which would be noticed and gather media attention. Rod seems to want 'sporting integrity' is he the man to kick start this? Or is that rediculous as he would put hibs under scrutiny?

It would be great if the hibs support were to get together and go knocking on rods door asking him to put our views across. Unfortunately this is not the best timing with the radical changes that MUST happen at hibs over the summer, and we come first, not rankgers!

[FitbaFolkKen]

My concern with the whole situation is that there are more clubs who haven't suffered the tougher sanctions, if you look here you can see that only 2 clubs have been demoted to the bottom division. there appear to be plenty of other cases to justify a points deduction etc... rather than the tougher sanctions we all want. The only positive is that they seem to be more stringent now than in previous years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administration_%28British_football%29

There are also examples in other countries of allowing newco's straight back in. For example Parma in 2004 were a mess and reformed. The Italian Football Authorities allowed them back into Serie A. I believe there were financial restrictions in place but haven't done any research into it so couldn't say.

Any approach needs to be reasoned, and possibly these decisions highlighted above have been negligent. Parma finished bottom of Serie A in their first season as a newco, does this mean they were out of their depth? Could this potentially happen to Rangers? Could we be ruining their youth players by exposing them to the SPL? What damage does this do to Scottish football and their standing in Europe? Why were Livingston/Gretna demoted and why was that the right decision? Why should the rules change now?

The talk of someone named leading a campaign makes sense, but awareness would have to be brought on various media such as the radio, tv, internet in the form of debates, blogs, tv/radio interviews. This probably should have been in motion months ago though, as it is with a decision probably very soon to come I think Doncaster and chums will be happy to have them back.

[Spike Mandela]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18170192?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sportsound

Take your nose out doncasters ass Mr Johnston

I think it is very clear from the various statements in the media by different Chairmen which clubs are worried that a loss of Rangers in the league will see their own team hurtle towards administration and those that are financially secure enough to uphold sporting integrity.

Mr Johnston's club is clearly in the former category.:rolleyes:

[TrickyNicky]

I think it is very clear from the various statements in the media by different Chairmen which clubs are worried that a loss of Rangers in the league will see their own team hurtle towards administration and those that are financially secure enough to uphold sporting integrity.

Mr Johnston's club is clearly in the former category.:rolleyes:

Maybe Mr Johnston thinks it's best that the punishment be more lenient in case there's a wee slip-up in his own clubs' paperwork in the future.:rolleyes:

[Beefster]

We need the SPL and SFA to understand the consequences if they allow Newco Rangers back into the top league etc.

Not one with the usual emotive, partisan sentiments, but an accurate and politically weighty statement that can gather support across Scotland and influence the decision makers.

Now, we've got loads of intelligent members on hibs.net so who'll take this on?

It needs to be done quickly though.

Admins: Please allow this to run as a separate thread for a while. If it's merged with the big thread, it will be lost and won't happen and I really do believe we need it.

It's nigh on impossible to get an 'impartial' statement/petition as everyone doing it has an opinion. The main one done so far was about as consensual amongst non-Rangers fans as you can get and has effectively been ignored by the SPL/SFA, died a complete death and we're now in the farcical position where no-one that wasn't actually at the meeting is allowed to know what was discussed, despite the meeting apparently being in 'our names'.

I won't be letting anyone else speak for me. Hibs know how I feel. If I'm vehemently opposed to the eventual outcome, I'll do what I think is right.

[bighairyfaeleith]

if rangers are allowed back into the spl then there is only one route for hibs, and that is to resign.

**** boycotts, I don't want to be in there league, if they want the SPL so bad let them play in it on there own.

[Caversham Green]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18170192?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sportsound

Take your nose out doncasters ass Mr Johnston

Another solicitor producing half-truths to cloud the issue - it's clearly a concerted campaign.

Johnson says (or gives the impression) that Rangers have been punished three times for going into administration - thay haven't and as a solicitor he must be fully aware of that, as must Doncaster who is also a solicitor by trade.

The only punishment Rangers have suffered for going into administration is the 10 point deduction and if they achieve a CVA they will not suffer any more punishment for that. The exclusion from Europe is for non-compliance with the financial reporting regulations - they would have suffered it whether or not they were in administration, and the fine and signing embargo were for supplying the SFA with false documents (arguably fraudulent) failing to pay taxes as they fell due and bringing the game into disrepute - again, nothing to do with administration.

The question of 'double contracts' is still to be considered and to my mind that is potentially the most serious misdemeanour yet since it could (and should) result in the voiding of all their achievements for the period it took place and their expulsion from both the SPL and SFA. In short, it is deliberate and premeditated fraud.

We must not let the mealy-mouthed authorities or the cowardly and spineless club chairmen/owners play these matters down or Scottish football will die.

Solicitors? Worse than f*****g accountants.

[ballengeich]

Two quotes from Mr Johnston's statement :-
1 "But there are legal differences and what people have to bear in mind is that a football club has always been viewed by the football authorities as being something separate from who owns the football club."
2 "You have got to be very careful not to come in too heavily with penalties and points deductions or financial penalties going forward which actually put people off investing in that club and trying to make it healthy," he said.
"After all, it's not the new owners who have done the damage, it is the previous owners."

IMO he's contradicting himself by saying first that the club is a continuing entity regardless of its owners then saying second that a club should be allowed to avoid responsibility for previous misdeeds by changing owners.

My concern about the future options for Rangers is not the difference in the settlement to the creditors, but that a Newco will be used to get out of sanctions for the behaviour of the club prior to entering administration. Punishments imposed so far are for actions during the current season. No charges regarding breaches of SPL rules in previous seasons have yet been put forward. A Newco should not be allowed to evade these.

I've thought also about proposed boycotts. My own decision is that I would not stop going to ER if I was certain that Hibs had voted in favour of sporting integrity. I shall not go to away games at the grounds of clubs who did not vote that way. I don't think I'll ever set foot in Rugby Park again.

[Liberal Hibby]

We need the SPL and SFA to understand the consequences if they allow Newco Rangers back into the top league etc.

Not one with the usual emotive, partisan sentiments, but an accurate and politically weighty statement that can gather support across Scotland and influence the decision makers.

Now, we've got loads of intelligent members on hibs.net so who'll take this on?

It needs to be done quickly though.

Admins: Please allow this to run as a separate thread for a while. If it's merged with the big thread, it will be lost and won't happen and I really do believe we need it.

I agree that there needs to be concerted pressure from fans to counteract the spin from Doncaster et al. I'm not sure a petition is the best way.

I've have thought there are two avenues fans could explore - firstly the FSA/Supporters Direct who have the resources and experience to lobby both football authorities and politicians as well as media function. I haven't heard anything from them about the Rangers situation - so maybe they need a bit of prodding (as it were).

The other place might be through the Tartan Army/Scotland supporters association - being representative of supporters of all Scottish football clubs - don't know how organised they are in reality - but they always seem to be able to wheel out a spokesperson or two when required.

[Sylar]

We need the SPL and SFA to understand the consequences if they allow Newco Rangers back into the top league etc.

Not one with the usual emotive, partisan sentiments, but an accurate and politically weighty statement that can gather support across Scotland and influence the decision makers.

Now, we've got loads of intelligent members on hibs.net so who'll take this on?

It needs to be done quickly though.

Admins: Please allow this to run as a separate thread for a while. If it's merged with the big thread, it will be lost and won't happen and I really do believe we need it.

I'm waiting on a model simulation to finish running on my laptop, so can't get on with work quite yet, so here's my drafted effort :greengrin

Dear sirs,

We, the undersigned, submit this petition to the Scottish Footballing Authorities in regard to the potential readmission of a NewCo Rangers FC into the SPL, with representative viewpoints from across the broad base of supporters of the 41 clubs in the professional Scottish setup.

The discussion of the fate of Rangers Football Club has been extensive since the club were placed into administration on February 14th, 2012. Now, as we move into this closed season period with the future of the club still in substantial doubt, we feel that the time has come to make our collective voices heard without prejudice or bias, to provide you, the decision makers, with the mindset of the wider community of Scottish Football fans.

In recent weeks, particularly since the takeover of Rangers by Charles Green, much of the discussion has started to focus on the likely fate of any NewCo Rangers and what impact such consequences could have on Scottish Football as a whole. We have been subjected to opinions from players, managers, owners, chairmen, media personalities and even politicians about how strong or weak Scottish Football would be without Glasgow Rangers. We have been informed that any TV deal would be null and void without Sky having the Old Firm games and we have been told that many sponsors would withdraw from the league should Rangers not remain within the SPL.

More recently, we have started to hear from many of you gentlemen within the halls of Hampden, indicating further that we need a strong Rangers. Mr Neil Doncaster has also recently indicated that any such NewCo may be allowed direct entry back into the SPL with no sanctions likely to be imposed, stating that "NewCos have been allowed within UK football for many years". Whilst the above is indeed true, we believe that no precedent has been set for allowing any club who exits a league structure via insolvency to enter back into the setup at the top level. Consider please for one moment if Rangers had been nearer the foot of the table upon entering administration and had been relegated to the SFL Division one based on points. Unlikely as this scenario seems, if it occurs in light of a young NewCo Rangers team playing in the SPL (owing to the imposed transfer embargo forcing the introduction of inexperienced youth players) after readmission, would the SPL take strides to ensure they were saved from relegation, "for the good of Scottish Football"? Such an action threatens to open a very large can of worms indeed.

To reintroduce any NewCo Rangers into the top level of the SPL would completely void any integrity in Scottish football and this sirs is worth much more than television deals, sponsorship and appeasing potential investors. Many supporters have considered the potentiality of a NewCo Rangers being readmitted to the league setup without sanctions being imposed and the widely held consensus is that if such an occurrence comes to pass regular attendance at games in Scotland would drop at an exponential level. In no other league setup worldwide has a football club ever gone into liquidation and been allowed to continue in the top division as a new company and having the SPL become the first would add further negative press to our already negatively perceived league.

We wish to be assured that we exist on a level playing field, where the rules are not established to preserve the existence of the few and that sporting integrity is something other than a media-derived buzzword which has been circulating since this saga began to unfold 4 months ago. We wish to see any NewCo Rangers being forced to reapply to the Scottish Football League at the lowest level (like any new entry before them) and working their way back up. We ask this in the interests of Scottish Football.

Yours,

[hibs0666]

I'm waiting on a model simulation to finish running on my laptop, so can't get on with work quite yet, so here's my drafted effort :greengrin

Dear sirs,

We, the undersigned, submit this petition to the Scottish Footballing Authorities in regard to the potential readmission of a NewCo Rangers FC into the SPL, with representative viewpoints from across the broad base of supporters of the 41 clubs in the professional Scottish setup.

The discussion of the fate of Rangers Football Club has been extensive since the club were placed into administration on February 14th, 2012. Now, as we move into this closed season period with the future of the club still in substantial doubt, we feel that the time has come to make our collective voices heard without prejudice or bias, to provide you, the decision makers, with the mindset of the wider community of Scottish Football fans.

In recent weeks, particularly since the takeover of Rangers by Charles Green, much of the discussion has started to focus on the likely fate of any NewCo Rangers and what impact such consequences could have on Scottish Football as a whole. We have been subjected to opinions from players, managers, owners, chairmen, media personalities and even politicians about how strong or weak Scottish Football would be without Glasgow Rangers. We have been informed that any TV deal would be null and void without Sky having the Old Firm games and we have been told that many sponsors would withdraw from the league should Rangers not remain within the SPL.

More recently, we have started to hear from many of you gentlemen within the halls of Hampden, indicating further that we need a strong Rangers. Mr Neil Doncaster has also recently indicated that any such NewCo may be allowed direct entry back into the SPL with no sanctions likely to be imposed, stating that "NewCos have been allowed within UK football for many years". Whilst the above is indeed true, we believe that no precedent has been set for allowing any club who exits a league structure via insolvency to enter back into the setup at the top level. Consider please for one moment if Rangers had been nearer the foot of the table upon entering administration and had been relegated to the SFL Division one based on points. Unlikely as this scenario seems, if it occurs in light of a young NewCo Rangers team playing in the SPL (owing to the imposed transfer embargo forcing the introduction of inexperienced youth players) after readmission, would the SPL take strides to ensure they were saved from relegation, "for the good of Scottish Football"? Such an action threatens to open a very large can of worms indeed.

To reintroduce any NewCo Rangers into the top level of the SPL would completely void any integrity in Scottish football and this sirs is worth much more than television deals, sponsorship and appeasing potential investors. Many supporters have considered the potentiality of a NewCo Rangers being readmitted to the league setup without sanctions being imposed and the widely held consensus is that if such an occurrence comes to pass regular attendance at games in Scotland would drop at an exponential level. In no other league setup worldwide has a football club ever gone into liquidation and been allowed to continue in the top division as a new company and having the SPL become the first would add further negative press to our already negatively perceived league.

We wish to be assured that we exist on a level playing field, where the rules are not established to preserve the existence of the few and that sporting integrity is something other than a media-derived buzzword which has been circulating since this saga began to unfold 4 months ago. We wish to see any NewCo Rangers being forced to reapply to the Scottish Football League at the lowest level (like any new entry before them) and working their way back up. We ask this in the interests of Scottish Football.

Yours,

Too long. :wink:

[Sylar]

Too long. :wink:

I might alter that and send it as an email to the SPL actually.

Not that they'll pay it any attention mind...

[poolman]

I might alter that and send it as an email to the SPL actually.

Not that they'll pay it any attention mind...


How about,

Dear Sirs,

Liquidate the barstewards

Yours

[Hibrandenburg]

How about,

Dear Sirs,

Liquidate the barstewards

Yours
Far too polite. We need to get over the strength of feeling on this. Apart from that quite good.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you're missing the main point, a Rangers newco is not Rangers, it's a new football club. Doncaster and Johnston are flat out lying, there is no such thing as a club entity separate from the company and never has been. Professional football clubs in Scotland are all single corporate entities.

It's not a readmission, it's a new admission.

Newcos have not been commonly allowed in UK football as a way of exiting administration. This is also a blatant lie. The only possible precedent is Leeds United who had an agreed CVA that was challenged by HMRC due to murky circumstances.


I'm waiting on a model simulation to finish running on my laptop, so can't get on with work quite yet, so here's my drafted effort :greengrin

Dear sirs,

We, the undersigned, submit this petition to the Scottish Footballing Authorities in regard to the potential readmission of a NewCo Rangers FC into the SPL, with representative viewpoints from across the broad base of supporters of the 41 clubs in the professional Scottish setup.

The discussion of the fate of Rangers Football Club has been extensive since the club were placed into administration on February 14th, 2012. Now, as we move into this closed season period with the future of the club still in substantial doubt, we feel that the time has come to make our collective voices heard without prejudice or bias, to provide you, the decision makers, with the mindset of the wider community of Scottish Football fans.

In recent weeks, particularly since the takeover of Rangers by Charles Green, much of the discussion has started to focus on the likely fate of any NewCo Rangers and what impact such consequences could have on Scottish Football as a whole. We have been subjected to opinions from players, managers, owners, chairmen, media personalities and even politicians about how strong or weak Scottish Football would be without Glasgow Rangers. We have been informed that any TV deal would be null and void without Sky having the Old Firm games and we have been told that many sponsors would withdraw from the league should Rangers not remain within the SPL.

More recently, we have started to hear from many of you gentlemen within the halls of Hampden, indicating further that we need a strong Rangers. Mr Neil Doncaster has also recently indicated that any such NewCo may be allowed direct entry back into the SPL with no sanctions likely to be imposed, stating that "NewCos have been allowed within UK football for many years". Whilst the above is indeed true, we believe that no precedent has been set for allowing any club who exits a league structure via insolvency to enter back into the setup at the top level. Consider please for one moment if Rangers had been nearer the foot of the table upon entering administration and had been relegated to the SFL Division one based on points. Unlikely as this scenario seems, if it occurs in light of a young NewCo Rangers team playing in the SPL (owing to the imposed transfer embargo forcing the introduction of inexperienced youth players) after readmission, would the SPL take strides to ensure they were saved from relegation, "for the good of Scottish Football"? Such an action threatens to open a very large can of worms indeed.

To reintroduce any NewCo Rangers into the top level of the SPL would completely void any integrity in Scottish football and this sirs is worth much more than television deals, sponsorship and appeasing potential investors. Many supporters have considered the potentiality of a NewCo Rangers being readmitted to the league setup without sanctions being imposed and the widely held consensus is that if such an occurrence comes to pass regular attendance at games in Scotland would drop at an exponential level. In no other league setup worldwide has a football club ever gone into liquidation and been allowed to continue in the top division as a new company and having the SPL become the first would add further negative press to our already negatively perceived league.

We wish to be assured that we exist on a level playing field, where the rules are not established to preserve the existence of the few and that sporting integrity is something other than a media-derived buzzword which has been circulating since this saga began to unfold 4 months ago. We wish to see any NewCo Rangers being forced to reapply to the Scottish Football League at the lowest level (like any new entry before them) and working their way back up. We ask this in the interests of Scottish Football.

Yours,

[JeMeSouviens]

We, the undersigned, reject the possibility that any new football club be directly admitted to the top tier of Scottish football, whether or not that new club has purchased any of the assets of a former member club.

[Just Alf]

I've thought also about proposed boycotts. My own decision is that I would not stop going to ER if I was certain that Hibs had voted in favour of sporting integrity. I shall not go to away games at the grounds of clubs who did not vote that way. I don't think I'll ever set foot in Rugby Park again.

This.


What I don't get is how those Charimen etc the teams that are supportive of the Huns coming back as a Newco can't see the bigger picture?..... My mate's a Killie fan and he's already said he's finished with them and surely loosing a season of away supporters coming to your ground CAN'T be made up for by a few Huns visits over the season???? :fuming:

[JeMeSouviens]

The killer counter argument to Johnston's pish:


"But there are legal differences and what people have to bear in mind is that a football club has always been viewed by the football authorities as being something separate from who owns the football club.

"So the club consists of its history and traditions, its stadium, its players, but most importantly its supporters.


Airdrie United play in the same stadium and colours as Airdrieonians did and in front of the same supporters. Why do the football authorities not regard them as the same club?

[shagpile]

I'm waiting on a model simulation to finish running on my laptop, so can't get on with work quite yet, so here's my drafted effort :greengrin

Dear sirs,

We, the undersigned, submit this petition to the Scottish Footballing Authorities in regard to the potential readmission of a NewCo Rangers FC into the SPL, with representative viewpoints from across the broad base of supporters of the 41 clubs in the professional Scottish setup.

The discussion of the fate of Rangers Football Club has been extensive since the club were placed into administration on February 14th, 2012. Now, as we move into this closed season period with the future of the club still in substantial doubt, we feel that the time has come to make our collective voices heard without prejudice or bias, to provide you, the decision makers, with the mindset of the wider community of Scottish Football fans.

In recent weeks, particularly since the takeover of Rangers by Charles Green, much of the discussion has started to focus on the likely fate of any NewCo Rangers and what impact such consequences could have on Scottish Football as a whole. We have been subjected to opinions from players, managers, owners, chairmen, media personalities and even politicians about how strong or weak Scottish Football would be without Glasgow Rangers. We have been informed that any TV deal would be null and void without Sky having the Old Firm games and we have been told that many sponsors would withdraw from the league should Rangers not remain within the SPL.

More recently, we have started to hear from many of you gentlemen within the halls of Hampden, indicating further that we need a strong Rangers. Mr Neil Doncaster has also recently indicated that any such NewCo may be allowed direct entry back into the SPL with no sanctions likely to be imposed, stating that "NewCos have been allowed within UK football for many years". Whilst the above is indeed true, we believe that no precedent has been set for allowing any club who exits a league structure via insolvency to enter back into the setup at the top level. Consider please for one moment if Rangers had been nearer the foot of the table upon entering administration and had been relegated to the SFL Division one based on points. Unlikely as this scenario seems, if it occurs in light of a young NewCo Rangers team playing in the SPL (owing to the imposed transfer embargo forcing the introduction of inexperienced youth players) after readmission, would the SPL take strides to ensure they were saved from relegation, "for the good of Scottish Football"? Such an action threatens to open a very large can of worms indeed.

To reintroduce any NewCo Rangers into the top level of the SPL would completely void any integrity in Scottish football and this sirs is worth much more than television deals, sponsorship and appeasing potential investors. Many supporters have considered the potentiality of a NewCo Rangers being readmitted to the league setup without sanctions being imposed and the widely held consensus is that if such an occurrence comes to pass regular attendance at games in Scotland would drop at an exponential level. In no other league setup worldwide has a football club ever gone into liquidation and been allowed to continue in the top division as a new company and having the SPL become the first would add further negative press to our already negatively perceived league.

We wish to be assured that we exist on a level playing field, where the rules are not established to preserve the existence of the few and that sporting integrity is something other than a media-derived buzzword which has been circulating since this saga began to unfold 4 months ago. We wish to see any NewCo Rangers being forced to reapply to the Scottish Football League at the lowest level (like any new entry before them) and working their way back up. We ask this in the interests of Scottish Football.

Yours,


You could add This is your copy, UEFA should receive theirs in the post tomorrow.

[ScottB]

The killer counter argument to Johnston's pish:




Airdrie United play in the same stadium and colours as Airdrieonians did and in front of the same supporters. Why do the football authorities not regard them as the same club?

Because they don't enough moronic bigot fans to make a difference to anyones balance sheet...

[Jack]

We need the SPL and SFA to understand the consequences if they allow Newco Rangers back into the top league etc.

Not one with the usual emotive, partisan sentiments, but an accurate and politically weighty statement that can gather support across Scotland and influence the decision makers.

Now, we've got loads of intelligent members on hibs.net so who'll take this on?

It needs to be done quickly though.

Admins: Please allow this to run as a separate thread for a while. If it's merged with the big thread, it will be lost and won't happen and I really do believe we need it.


Too long. :wink:

Dear Mr Doncaster

I have been following your media releases concerning the Rangers (IA) debacle over the past few months with interest.

Your seeming intent to keep Rangers (IA) in the SPL contrary to all sporting and financial fair play will destroy professional football in the country.

Gonna no dae that?

Yours sincerely

:saltireflag

Scotland

[Benny Brazil]

Maybe if we could get an email for Neil Doncaster, we could send him emails telling him where to shove his "CVA and Newco are the same" idea.

neildoncaster@scotprem.com

[Jim44]

This.


What I don't get is how those Charimen etc the teams that are supportive of the Huns coming back as a Newco can't see the bigger picture?..... My mate's a Killie fan and he's already said he's finished with them and surely loosing a season of away supporters coming to your ground CAN'T be made up for by a few Huns visits over the season???? :fuming:

The effectiveness of a boycott would depend on the numbers willing to be consistently involved and the solidarity to sustain it. Knowing human nature that is not a foregone conclusion.

[JeMeSouviens]

Get the popcorn ready ...



Mark Daly ‏@markdaly2

Dual contracts? Find out tonight which Rangers players had side letters promising undeclared funds through EBT http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01j0k6k #bbcsi

Mark Daly ‏@markdaly2

Biggest EBT beneficiaries named, did Whyte really "dupe" Sir David and questions over the administrators. Tonight at 8 http://tinyurl.com/6nerotr

Mark Daly Mark Daly ‏@markdaly2

Tax scheme, takeover, administration. The truth behind the headlines - Rangers: The Men Who Sold the Jerseys. Tomorrow at 8pm on BBC1

[Ryan91]

Get the popcorn ready ...



Mark Daly ‏@markdaly2 (http://twitter.com/#!/markdaly2)

Dual contracts? Find out tonight which Rangers players had side letters promising undeclared funds through EBT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01j0k6k
#bbcsi

Mark Daly ‏@markdaly2 (http://twitter.com/#!/markdaly2)

Biggest EBT beneficiaries named, did Whyte really "dupe" Sir David and questions over the administrators. Tonight at 8
http://tinyurl.com/6nerotr


Mark Daly ‏@markdaly2 (http://twitter.com/#!/markdaly2)

Tax scheme, takeover, administration. The truth behind the headlines - Rangers: The Men Who Sold the Jerseys. Tomorrow at 8pm on BBC1




Hopefully Mr. Doncaster has his telly tuned to this tonight, if the Beeb can find damning evidence of dual contracts and EBTs, then how in his right mind can he justify letting a new Rangers back in to the SPL when they have quite clearly cheated? Tonight will hopefully be yet another nail in the coffin of that vile and loathsome club.