Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Smartie]

I have a bit of sympathy for Petrie on this.

I have it on fairly good authority that when the original kerfuffle was going on he was all up for stripping the titles at that point, and I'd be amazed if anything has happened since then to change his opinion.

He sounded far from convinced or convincing there.

There will be differing opinions within the board and whether he agrees or not he'll need to trot out the party line.

Petrie has never feared making himself unpopular with anyone, so the Rangers hordes will not affect him.

Even though I've not always been a fan of what he's done at Hibs I do think he'd do the right thing by us when it comes to SPFL business, and he'll be well aware that the majority of our fans would want to see at the very least another investigation.

[HoboHarry]

What's the possibility of us announcing a signing to coincide with a statement about Sevco?

[Smartie]

What's the possibility of us announcing a signing to coincide with a statement about Sevco?

That's it, I'm never going back, the game's a bogey, here you go Rod, here's my season ticket back.....

WHOA

STOKESY!!!!!!!!!

BRING ON THE NEW SEASON!!!!!!!!

[ancient hibee]

What's the possibility of us announcing a signing to coincide with a statement about Sevco?



5/1 on.

[Ozyhibby]

Aye, Hibs have always been in cahoots with the Hun, I tell ye it's a ****** masonic / Fenian conspiracy.......

It's not about being in cahoots. It's about doing the right thing.


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[Onion]

I have a bit of sympathy for Petrie on this.

I have it on fairly good authority that when the original kerfuffle was going on he was all up for stripping the titles at that point, and I'd be amazed if anything has happened since then to change his opinion.

He sounded far from convinced or convincing there.

There will be differing opinions within the board and whether he agrees or not he'll need to trot out the party line.

Petrie has never feared making himself unpopular with anyone, so the Rangers hordes will not affect him.

Even though I've not always been a fan of what he's done at Hibs I do think he'd do the right thing by us when it comes to SPFL business, and he'll be well aware that the majority of our fans would want to see at the very least another investigation.

The common line trotted out by the WCM is that they are following legal advice (and that advice is you cannot strip). If true then individual opinions matter little.

[Ozyhibby]

What's the possibility of us announcing a signing to coincide with a statement about Sevco?

And they will release the statement late in the day so that all the Celtic fans are already on their way to their match.


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[MrSmith]

I have bought no season tix nor strips this time because I feel violated by cheats! Not another penny will leave my wallet re hibs until justice is served upon the cheats.

[Spike Mandela]

Quick body swerve there, Rod. Barry John would have been proud of that one. Mind you, Barry"s windies wurny at stake.

To be fair, he's saying it"s time to stop poking the cat and move on. Up to a point I agree. (Tin hat firmly on).

So in essence the authorities are saying....

"Rangers cheated, we're daeing nothing aboot it so what are you fannies gonna dae?" " **** off peasants".

[Jack]

I get that and I am all for ramming anything right up the Rangers, but..........

What I am asking is - in a practical sense - what does disqualifying them from a tournament XYZ years ago mean?

If you played the Huns in a semi final do you get to replay the final (ridiculous of course), but you get my drift now?

It's really quite simple.

All results are 3.0 defeats. Recognised as a sanction around the footballing world.

That will basically mean not winning any trophies, knocked out of the first round of cups, during the period of dual contracts.

Any other outcome will have Scottish football as the most corrupt in the world, the only sporting authority in the world to sanction cheating. Even more than the world footballing authorities themselves, who are at least trying to make amends.

[Manxhibs]

Number 3 on this list - https://youtu.be/o6AtSJ5hFXc

Pleasing :)

[Kato]

Rangers gained a financial edge over other clubs but then so has every team who overspent and then entered administration. As for stripping titles what is that going to achieve? Our game needs to move on and try talking it up rather than revisit old issues. We all believe they got an unfair advantage and love reminding them of it.

Have any of those other clubs been found to have had side-contracts?

[HoboHarry]

Appalling if true and our very own RP is involved in it up to his neck.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/spfl-will-not-pursue-probe-into-rangers-ebt-scheme-1-4512742

[Iggy Pope]

If we go after Rangers, then a bit of whataboutery might bring this into play.


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True. You mentioned Dundee. Are we to deduct 15 points from them every time they couldn't deal without an Administrator? Motherwell too? Let's have that whataboutery across the board please.

[Haymaker]

Appalling if true and our very own RP is involved in it up to his neck.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/spfl-will-not-pursue-probe-into-rangers-ebt-scheme-1-4512742

Appalling indeed.

[Ozyhibby]

True. You mentioned Dundee. Are we to deduct 15 points from them every time they couldn't deal without an Administrator? Motherwell too? Let's have that whataboutery across the board please.

Ther were no rules against over spending, still aren't. Disgracefully. Sevco are back at it and who can blame them. They know they can do what they like.


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[jacomo]

Not convincing at all from Petrie.[emoji35]
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40710728?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_sportsound&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=scotland


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I know you are critical of Rod but that is a holding statement, nothing more or less.

Without knowing what happened behind closed doors it is hard to read much into it.

[jacomo]

Have any of those other clubs been found to have had side-contracts?


That is the crucial distinction.

This is about hiding details of players contracts from the authorities. That is expressly against the rules.

[Ozyhibby]

I know you are critical of Rod but that is a holding statement, nothing more or less.

Without knowing what happened behind closed doors it is hard to read much into it.

I really hope you are right. Rod does the right thing here and I'll forgive him for the way he ran Hibs. I know that's important to him, so hopefully he reads this. [emoji23]


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[jacomo]

I really hope you are right. Rod does the right thing here and I'll forgive him for the way he ran Hibs. I know that's important to him, so hopefully he reads this. [emoji23]


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So do I!

Has this fabled legal advice been published?

[Ozyhibby]

So do I!

Has this fabled legal advice been published?

Nope.


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[Deansy]

Number 3 on this list - https://youtu.be/o6AtSJ5hFXc

Pleasing :)

Lovely stuff - our 'media'(:faf:) should take note !

[Is It On....]

Appalling if true and our very own RP is involved in it up to his neck.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/spfl-will-not-pursue-probe-into-rangers-ebt-scheme-1-4512742

Warren Hawke on the board ffs...makes me feel really old!! One apon-a-time we would have wanted him to sign for us!!

[kaimendhibs]

Barry Ferguson declared insolvent with debts of 1.4 million. Claims only to have 3 grand. Poppinjay must be worth a fortune.

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[kaimendhibs]

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15429953.Former_Rangers_star_Barry_Ferguson_declar ed_bankrupt_with_debts_of_more_than___1_4_million/

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[Jonnyboy]

Barry Ferguson declared insolvent with debts of 1.4 million. Claims only to have 3 grand. Poppinjay must be worth a fortune.

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Soon to be known as The Barry Ferguson

[Bostonhibby]

Soon to be known as The Barry Ferguson

:faf:

Ferco?

Barry Ferguson international 2017?

[malcolm]

Publication of fabled advice?

While I am not suggesting they sought a legal view down the pub (or the lodge:wink:) you get what you pay for is a rule in most affairs of life. We don't know the question that any lawyers were asked to opine on othe context in which it was asked.

If you pay for an opinion you might reasonably have an outcome in mind that you favour and you may be testing it for various reasons - for example the likelihood of if being a persuasive enough argument supported by law and precedent for a court to agree. But you may have no wish or intention to go anywhere near a court and are looking for some form of credible support to justify action or inaction.

It may be wrong to place undue credibility on a legal opinion from an unknown party with no clarity on the point of law asked about. :wink: If legal opinions were simply the be all and end all we would not need a civil court system or judges to make decisions.

[Spike Mandela]

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/15429953.Former_Rangers_star_Barry_Ferguson_declar ed_bankrupt_with_debts_of_more_than___1_4_million/

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No doubt his assets are in another family members name and this bankruptcy will be a way of shielding himself from HMRC when they come calling for EBT monies.

I expect a domino effect of choreographed bankrupcies now for recipients who can afford a good financial adviser and lawyer.

[CropleyWasGod]

No doubt his assets are in another family members name and this bankruptcy will be a way of shielding himself from HMRC when they come calling for EBT monies.

I expect a domino effect of choreographed bankrupcies now for recipients who can afford a good financial adviser and lawyer.This isn't about the EBT tax. It's about the investment he, and others, made into film schemes which failed, and for which tax relief was denied. He's not the first to go this way, and he won't be the last.


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[Crazyhorse]

Soon to be known as The Barry Ferguson

Cracker!

[Is It On....]

:faf:

Ferco?

Barry Ferguson international 2017?

Barry "shafter of the tax payer" Ferguson. Deserves everything he gets which DOES NOT include a role at BBC Radio Scotland!!

[Jonnyboy]

:faf:

Ferco?

Barry Ferguson international 2017?


Cracker!

Can't claim it as my own, unfortunately. My brother sent me a text with that in it and it may have come from twitter. Made me laugh though :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

Barry "shafted of the tax payer" Ferguson. Deserves everything he gets which DOES NOT include a role at BBC Radio Scotland!!Indeed hardly the done thing for the public broadcaster to be paying someone who has stiffed the public purse then went bankrupt to avoid being forced to pay what the rest of the honest tax payers do.

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[CropleyWasGod]

Indeed hardly the done thing for the public broadcaster to be paying someone who has stiffed the public purse then went bankrupt to avoid being forced to pay what the rest of the honest tax payers do.

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My guess is that it's HMRC who have made him bankrupt.

[ancient hibee]

Appalling if true and our very own RP is involved in it up to his neck.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/spfl-will-not-pursue-probe-into-rangers-ebt-scheme-1-4512742

Is Rod on the board of the SPFL?

[Bostonhibby]

My guess is that it's HMRC who have made him bankrupt.I know you're right but I reserve the right to be outraged and outrageous in my condemnation![emoji1]

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[CropleyWasGod]

I know you're right but I reserve the right to be outraged and outrageous in my condemnation![emoji1]

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:greengrin

I've often wondered if there's a smilie for green-tinted glasses. If there's not, there bloody should be :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

:greengrin

I've often wondered if there's a smilie for green-tinted glasses. If there's not, there bloody should be :greengrin[emoji106] Would be handy.

Not going to let technicalities get in the way of a bit of ridicule or kicking a hun while he's "down".[emoji6]

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[Ozyhibby]

Is Rod on the board of the SPFL?

No, he's on the SFA professional game board.


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[ancient hibee]

So that means presumably he has no say in what the SPFL board does but does have with the SFA?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170725/0b78cf05bb2ca0f19735664f75b179d9.jpg
So much for Budge being a breath of fresh air in Scottish football.


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[MrSmith]

No f that's the case? I will no longer pay into Scottish Football.

[Kaiser1962]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170725/0b78cf05bb2ca0f19735664f75b179d9.jpg
So much for Budge being a breath of fresh air in Scottish football.


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I think they are terrified that they are going to be dragged into this. Lith authorities, as far as I am aware, are still looking for Vlad and a missing £300m and I cant imagine what might come out if they find him. Theres also the matter of UBIG and UKIO, with a combined shareholding of 79% and representatives on the board of directors, being designated as having no links to Hearts therefore carrying the CVA against HMRC. That is essentially the reason they got the CVA and Rangers didn't.

If i was Newhun, or even Oldhun, I would be all over it like a badly fitting suit. I can't for the life of me work out why they're not.

[Bostonhibby]

Are Budge and Robertson two cheeks of the same erse now? [emoji32]

Or just part of the big cover up? Lucky most of us will never need legal advice to understand how the now defunct Glasgow rangers and teams like them really did gain an unfair advantage. The game appears to be over as far as "sporting integrity" is concerned.



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[brog]

I'm 100% in favour of stripping the titles away but I have some sympathy with those members of the footballing authorities, eg Budgie, who are having to deal with the sins of the past. I can also understand the trepidation some may feel because as we all know, Johnny Hun is not really a rational or intelligent beast when it comes to accepting decisions against them. I do believe there may be a reasonable compromise but I'm not sure the SPFL etc will have the courage to take this action. They could release a statement along the following lines;

We have sought legal advice & regrettably that advice is we do not have the authority to remove league titles & other trophies gained in the period x-y from the team formerly known as Rangers FC. There is no doubt however that as a result of malfeasance on the part of Rangers' management & board, that some of their players were improperly registered at the time these trophies were won. Had that information been available to the governing footballing authorities at that time then Rangers would not have been permitted to play in or would have been expelled from those competitions.

I'm not holding my breath & my draft is a tad provocative but I genuinely believe that a statement in principle along these lines would satisfy nearly everyone bar The Green Brigade!

[MrSmith]

It could also include something along the lines of: "given that Rangers were liquidated in 2012, etc etc ..."

[High-On-Hibs]

"We can't punish them as they are different clubs, pretending to be the same club, while allowing them to have all the tainted trophies and medals gained from the other club".

[The Falcon]

Publication of fabled advice?

While I am not suggesting they sought a legal view down the pub (or the lodge:wink:) you get what you pay for is a rule in most affairs of life. We don't know the question that any lawyers were asked to opine on othe context in which it was asked.

If you pay for an opinion you might reasonably have an outcome in mind that you favour and you may be testing it for various reasons - for example the likelihood of if being a persuasive enough argument supported by law and precedent for a court to agree. But you may have no wish or intention to go anywhere near a court and are looking for some form of credible support to justify action or inaction.

It may be wrong to place undue credibility on a legal opinion from an unknown party with no clarity on the point of law asked about. :wink: If legal opinions were simply the be all and end all we would not need a civil court system or judges to make decisions.

Or they just keep asking till someone gives the answer they want?

What then needs to be established is that persons qualification to offer guidance on the subject although this cant be checked because they cant name anyone who gave them said advice. It could have been the guy in the garage for all we know, although the guy in the garage would have known any scheme which loans you money which doesn't have to paid back, and that you don't have to pay tax on as long as don't write anything down, might be a bit dodgy.

[Keith_M]

"We have taken advice from our Legal Expert, Mr Donald Findlay, and he has advised us that there are no legal grounds on which to strip 'The Glorious Ranjurs' of any titles. He also mentioned something about the Pope and WeeArraPeepul, but that's another matter..."

[silverhibee]

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

[Ozyhibby]

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

I'll definitely not be watching any SFA teams from now on.


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[Geo_1875]

We have sought legal advice & regrettably that advice is we do not have the authority to remove league titles & other trophies gained in the period x-y from the team formerly known as Rangers FC. There is no doubt however that as a result of malfeasance on the part of Rangers' management & board, that some of their players were improperly registered at the time these trophies were won. Had that information been available to the governing footballing authorities at that time then Rangers would not have been permitted to play in or would have been expelled from those competitions.

Or "They cheated but we're letting them away with it."

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Or "They cheated but we're letting them away with it."

So what are they actually known as now is the were 'formally known as rangers'?

[Bishop Hibee]

While I believe titles should be stripped, I won't be boycotting anything. I'm on record a lot earlier in this thread saying I'd have walked away from Scottish football if Newco had been allowed to re-enter the Premiership and I maintain I would have. Just can't get as worked up this time around.

[High-On-Hibs]

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

They may not know that our game is. But i'm sure they'll know that their own game is.

[AndyM_1875]

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

No thanks. I enjoy watching Scotland games as do many other Hibbies with all the pain that goes with it.

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15432375.Former_Rangers_star_Barry_Ferguson_transf erred_luxury_mansion_into_wife_s_name_before_bankr uptcy/?ref=twtrec


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170725/1014b6c54b78a504dc943a1c2790abfe.png


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[Pete70]

I can't possibly see now how there will be another enquiry into stripping Rangers of titles etc when the MD of The Rangers has just been elected onto the SPFL board. It now seems every other team (including Hibs) are now burying their head in the sand and hoping the issue just goes away. It's a pity no one in the media has the ba**s to take on the establishment.

[HoboHarry]

I can't possibly see now how there will be another enquiry into stripping Rangers of titles etc when the MD of The Rangers has just been elected onto the SPFL board. It now seems every other team (including Hibs) are now burying their head in the sand and hoping the issue just goes away. It's a pity no one in the media has the ba**s to take on the establishment.
Seems to me that a huge number of fans have been overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......

[Ozyhibby]

Seems to me that a huge number of fans have overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......

Correct


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[GreenLake]

For years there was just one guy publishing the truth about corruption in FIFA (http://www.transparencyinsport.org/) while the media and our sporting authorities largely ignored it.

Justice had it's day eventually and Sepp Blatter and his mob were taken down.

Tick tock

[Onion]

Or they just keep asking till someone gives the answer they want?

What then needs to be established is that persons qualification to offer guidance on the subject although this cant be checked because they cant name anyone who gave them said advice. It could have been the guy in the garage for all we know, although the guy in the garage would have known any scheme which loans you money which doesn't have to paid back, and that you don't have to pay tax on as long as don't write anything down, might be a bit dodgy.

The annoying thing is ... had the media been doing it's job properly, they would be interviewing a whole string of knowledgable lawyers on the matter - at least giving the public some insight to where the problem might exist. As it is, the west coast media's inaction and silence is deafening as it is shameful.

[ancient hibee]

Seems to me that a huge number of fans have been overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......

Rubbish.

[HoboHarry]

Rubbish.
In your opinion. There will be plenty who agree with me but don't let that stand in your way......

[Bostonhibby]

Seems to me that a huge number of fans have been overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......[emoji106] The yams can't, not now Mrs Budge has told them what she thinks.

Romanovesque.

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[Bostonhibby]

In your opinion. There will be plenty who agree with me but don't let that stand in your way......Count me in

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[HoboHarry]

[emoji106] The yams can't, not now Mrs Budge has told them what she thinks.

Romanovesque.

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I'm genuinely mystified as to how Budge can cave this soon into her involvement with football. There must be some fearful skeletons in the closet...... Sporting integrity my a**e......

[Bostonhibby]

I'm genuinely mystified as to how Budge can cave this soon into her involvement with football. There must be some fearful skeletons in the closet...... Sporting integrity my a**e......Tainted trophies?

Less than transparent third party contract payments?

Turkey planning a new year party?



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[ancient hibee]

In your opinion. There will be plenty who agree with me but don't let that stand in your way......
Stand in my way of what exactly?

[HoboHarry]

Stand in my way of what exactly?
Whatever you want it to be - this will be my last reply to you as you are clearly looking for an argument and you don't seem to care much for a debate. Cheerio :bye:

[Spike Mandela]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15432375.Former_Rangers_star_Barry_Ferguson_transf erred_luxury_mansion_into_wife_s_name_before_bankr uptcy/?ref=twtrec


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Premeditaded actions from this corrupt little ****er

[Brunswickbill]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15432375.Former_Rangers_star_Barry_Ferguson_transf erred_luxury_mansion_into_wife_s_name_before_bankr uptcy/?ref=twtrec


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Is the article saying that he took the money from the EBT and ivested it in Eclpse, the tax evasion vehicle? Hilarious if that's what happened.

[The Falcon]

Is the article saying that he took the money from the EBT and ivested it in Eclpse, the tax evasion vehicle? Hilarious if that's what happened. Absolutely ludicrous if he can get away with this.

[CropleyWasGod]

"Former Rangers star Barry Ferguson transferred luxury mansion into wife's name before bankruptcy" says the herald
Surely it's not that simple? I do know that in order to avoid care charges any transfer has to take place seven years before you need the service, it would seem ludicrous for someone to move their assetts to avaid paying debt?

In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).

He'll have to hope that his marriage is rock solid, though :greengrin

[Keith_M]

In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).


In essence, there is no punishment whatsoever to be meted out for his crimes.

Yet more evidedence that the law is an Ass.

[The Falcon]

In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).

He'll have to hope that his marriage is rock solid, though :greengrin

It says five in the article for bankrupcy yet the rule is seven years to avoid your parents home being sold to pay for care charges. Money is obviously more important than people in the eyes of the Law, which we already knew tbh.

That said he transferred ownership shortly before Rangers went into admin which, depending on the timing, may have been a few short months. And then managed to prevent himself going bankrupt till after the supreme court hearing. Spooky or what?

In a divorce situation, not that I would wish that on him, I am pretty sure his lawyers would be arguing quite vociferously that he contributed significantly to the upkeep and maintenace of the property and is due a settlement to reflect this.

[Ozyhibby]

In essence, there is no punishment whatsoever to be meted out for his crimes.

Yet more evidedence that the law is an Ass.

Yip. It's stuff like this that turns people against capitalism.


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[CropleyWasGod]

It says five in the article for bankrupcy yet the rule is seven years to avoid your parents home being sold to pay for care charges.

That said he transferred ownership shortly before Rangers went into admin which, depending on the timing, may have been a few short months. And then managed to prevent himself going bankrupt till after the supreme court hearing. Spooky or what?

In a divorce situation, not that I would wish that on him, I am pretty sure his lawyers would be arguing quite vociferously that he contributed significantly to the upkeep and maintenace of the property and is due a settlement to reflect this.

People are making the (understandable) leap in assuming that this is to do with the EBT situation. It's much more to do with Eclipse.

At the time of the asset transfer, he wouldn't have known that RFC were about to go into admin; much less, he couldn't have known how the EBT case would turn out. Indeed, the legislation that MIGHT trap him for the EBT tax wasn't proposed until this year's Budget, and still isn't law.

This was about shielding him from tax from the Eclipse business. As things turned out, it was one of his better financial decisions. :rolleyes:

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFpySYAXoAANA_o.jpg:large

[Smartie]

In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).

He'll have to hope that his marriage is rock solid, though :greengrin

Mrs Ferguson has her hands clamped round his ballbag everywhere he goes now.

Bazza won't be getting any opportunities to play away from home.

For a footballer/ ex-footballer that might be the worst punishment possible.

[grunt]

Full press release here https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-press-release-84/


The first possible complaint relates to failure to disclose the full range of payments when players were registered. That complaint was ‘prosecuted’ before the LNS Commission. The decision of the Commission was subject to certain limitations. Principally, it proceeded on the assumption that the EBT scheme was lawful. Secondly, there has been some suggestion that the Commission had an incomplete understanding of the full range of undisclosed payments (though this has not been demonstrated). Notwithstanding these limitations, it is now too late to appeal the decision of the LNS Commission; and, applying the general principle of finality in litigation, it is not possible for the SPFL to bring a new or second complaint in respect of essentially the same matter
Read more at https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-press-release-84/#zlhboDRwMwcGmTzK.99

[The Falcon]

People are making the (understandable) leap in assuming that this is to do with the EBT situation. It's much more to do with Eclipse.

At the time of the asset transfer, he wouldn't have known that RFC were about to go into admin; much less, he couldn't have known how the EBT case would turn out. Indeed, the legislation that MIGHT trap him for the EBT tax wasn't proposed until this year's Budget, and still isn't law.

This was about shielding him from tax from the Eclipse business. As things turned out, it was one of his better financial decisions. :rolleyes:

From the Whyte trial it would appear that those in the know accepted that an admin event was possible, if not probable, and had been pushing water uphill for quite a while. Rangers were being investigated by HMRC and were "obstructive, unhelpful and evasive" in that investigation into Rangers player payments, of which Ferguson was a major beneficiary, and an admin event could have meant that Rangers would lose control over the flow of information. HMRC have been chaing these payments and others , Celtic being one, complied. Rangers did not or could not. It is not hugely speculative to suggest this would have been the source of discussion amongst those it might affect.

I know nothing about Eclipse or the timescale of the "investments". Was this the same one Billy Dodds mentioned when confronted with the payment recieved to leave Rangers and did not question?

That said speculation and assumptions which show Old Rangers and their loyal servants in a less than honest light is something that I, sadly, find quite gratifying. Like reminding Yams that they bumped the Poppy fund.

Facts??? :na na:

[CropleyWasGod]

From the Whyte trial it would appear that those in the know accepted that an admin event was possible, if not probable, and had been pushing water uphill for quite a while. Rangers were being investigated by HMRC and were "obstructive, unhelpful and evasive" in that investigation into Rangers player payments, of which Ferguson was a major beneficiary, and an admin event could have meant that Rangers would lose control over the flow of information. HMRC have been chaing these payments and others , Celtic being one, complied. Rangers did not or could not. It is not hugely speculative to suggest this would have been the source of discussion amongst those it might affect.

I know nothing about Eclipse or the timescale of the "investments". Was this the same one Billy Dodds mentioned when confronted with the payment recieved to leave Rangers and did not question?

That said speculation and assumptions which show Old Rangers and their loyal servants in a less than honest light is something that I, sadly, find quite gratifying. Like reminding Yams that they bumped the Poppy fund.

Facts??? :na na:

Ferguson likely wouldn't have known about the impending administration. If he did, it would have been a side-issue in his life at the time. The Eclipse issue would have been much more important.

Here's one article that will tell you something about Eclipse:-

https://www.aol.co.uk/money/2016/12/07/the-635m-tax-scheme-that-went-wrong/

Hundreds of footballers invested in this. IIRC, Darren Jackson and Denis Viola (BF's agent?) have both been bankrupted as a result.

[Michael]

Why does the SPFL need legal power to determine if Rangers gained an unfair advantage? Surely this is all internal.

[Velma Dinkley]

Will the SPFL need to take legal advice every time it thinks about enforcing its own rules? Or will they only do it when they've already decided they don't want to enforce them?

[Geo_1875]

Why does the SPFL need legal power to determine if Rangers gained an unfair advantage? Surely this is all internal.

Because they are a bunch arse-covering cowards.

[Geo_1875]

Will the SPFL need to take legal advice every time it thinks about enforcing its own rules? Or will they only do it when they've already decided they don't want to enforce them?

They will claim that Deidco won the titles under the SPL rules and the SPFL can't touch them.

[green day]

Ferguson likely wouldn't have known about the impending administration. If he did, it would have been a side-issue in his life at the time. The Eclipse issue would have been much more important.

Here's one article that will tell you something about Eclipse:-

https://www.aol.co.uk/money/2016/12/07/the-635m-tax-scheme-that-went-wrong/

Hundreds of footballers invested in this. IIRC, Darren Jackson and Denis Viola (BF's agent?) have both been bankrupted as a result.

Wow, that's an absolute stinger. Invest £100k, get hit with £1m tax bill !! No wonder these guys were forced to go bankrupt.

Shame if they got advice on it too.

[Ozyhibby]

Reading through the SPFL statement it appears that so long as a club changes owners then no punishment can be handed out for bringing game into disrepute? There are contradictions everywhere in it as well but it will require better legal minds than mine to decipher it all.


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[MrSmith]

Full press release here https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-press-release-84/


Covered their combined ***** from 2010 onwards! Complete whitewash and complicit in nature.

[Hibeesforever]

Covered their combined ***** from 2010 onwards! Complete whitewash and complicit in nature.

The notice talks about no further action due to a "finality in litgation". I am not a lawyer, although surely there is always scope for an appeal. Disgraceful the way the SPFL are abdicating their duty to foster fairness and justice.

[660]

isn't an "independent review" a good idea or am I missing something

[Thecat23]

Corrupt league, always has been always will be. Every club including ours should be ashamed of themselves for not pursuing this as far as possible.

Actually disgusted by it all. Maybe we should just cheat like **** as well.

[MrSmith]

The notice talks about no further action due to a "finality in litgation". I am not a lawyer, although surely there is always scope for an appeal. Disgraceful the way the SPFL are abdicating their duty to foster fairness and justice.

There must be room for a retrospective appeal/action. This is a scandal that needs those who initiated it to be brought to justice and charged appropriately. I think the only way forward is for fan action now. The SPFL statement goes past title stripping now into the realms of criminality.

Someone said earlier about abdication of responsibility, it is absolutely shameful! We can now be clear that our club were part of it.

[Keith_M]

The only posibility now of anything being done to strip titles is if Celtc decide to take this further.

[Ozyhibby]

Looking forward to hearing what Traceyhibs thinks will be getting discussed at the board meeting on Monday 31st. Looking very like our fans reps on the board are in the loop about as much as any of us.


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[CropleyWasGod]

isn't an "independent review" a good idea or am I missing something

It is, in my book.

[Deansy]

From the Whyte trial it would appear that those in the know accepted that an admin event was possible, if not probable, and had been pushing water uphill for quite a while. Rangers were being investigated by HMRC and were "obstructive, unhelpful and evasive" in that investigation into Rangers player payments, of which Ferguson was a major beneficiary, and an admin event could have meant that Rangers would lose control over the flow of information. HMRC have been chaing these payments and others , Celtic being one, complied. Rangers did not or could not. It is not hugely speculative to suggest this would have been the source of discussion amongst those it might affect.

I know nothing about Eclipse or the timescale of the "investments". Was this the same one Billy Dodds mentioned when confronted with the payment recieved to leave Rangers and did not question?

That said speculation and assumptions which show Old Rangers and their loyal servants in a less than honest light is something that I, sadly, find quite gratifying. Like reminding Yams that they bumped the Poppy fund.

Facts??? :na na:

Or - if all we're going to get out of this is an 'Independent Review' then the SPFL should rename it 'The Rangers Review' as it was brought about by their cheating - at least we'd forever have a law that would constantly remind them of their cheating !

[Smartie]

The only posibility now of anything being done to strip titles is if Celtc decide to take this further.

Can Celtic take it further?

Where can they take it?

I'm not sure this slams the door on their face any less than the rest of us.

If Celtic can take this further, why not Hibs?

[Ozyhibby]

Can Celtic take it further?

Where can they take it?

I'm not sure this slams the door on their face any less than the rest of us.

If Celtic can take this further, why not Hibs?

If it goes further from here it will be the the fans. The clubs won't move on this now.


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[Ozyhibby]

It is, in my book.

Only if the scope of the review is wide ranging and it is truly independent. It also needs to have the power to interview any individuals it needs to and proper punishments for those found guilty. People like Murray, Ogilvie, Dickson etc should be banned from football for life.


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[Geo_1875]

If it goes further from here it will be the the fans. The clubs won't move on this now.


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Why would the The fans want to take this further?

[AndyM_1875]

Or - if all we're going to get out of this is an 'Independent Review' then the SPFL should rename it 'The Rangers Review' as it was brought about by their cheating - at least we'd forever have a law that would constantly remind them of their cheating !

I'd like to think that an independent review will be somewhat broader than just focusing on the disgraceful behaviour at Rangers.
When you have had in the space of a decade 4 Premiership clubs undergo Administration, one of them twice plus a liquidation and that absolute freakshow at Gretna it suggests to me that the League needs to paying greater scrutiny of the Accounts of it's member clubs.

Perhaps a job for CWG:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd like to think that an independent review will be somewhat broader than just focusing on the disgraceful behaviour at Rangers.
When you have had in the space of a decade 4 Premiership clubs undergo Administration, one of them twice plus a liquidation and that absolute freakshow at Gretna it suggests to me that the League needs to paying greater scrutiny of the Accounts of it's member clubs.

Perhaps a job for CWG:greengrin

I'm tainted :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

All the legalese in that statement is just to confuse us mere mortals.

I don't think anyone wants sanctions against the club currently plying their trade in the SPFL, but rather, it is a statement of fact that the titles and trophies acquired by the previous incarnation were not won fairly and should be expunged from the records as being null and void as a result of the irregularities in player registration at the time.

[JeMeSouviens]

If it goes further from here it will be the the fans. The clubs won't move on this now.


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:agree: ... and Celtc have been every bit as keen* on short termist rule bending and rug sweeping as all the other clubs. :rolleyes:


* if not more so.

[plhibs]

All the legalese in that statement is just to confuse us mere mortals.

I don't think anyone wants sanctions against the club currently plying their trade in the SPFL, but rather, it is a statement of fact that the titles and trophies acquired by the previous incarnation were not won fairly and should be expunged from the records as being null and void as a result of the irregularities in player registration at the time.

This hits the nail on the head. rules exist to deal with improperly registered players It has been proven that this happened during this time period so apply the rules. It doesn't need lawyers to advise how to go about this.
Apply the rules as has been done to other clubs, but maybe as all fans can see they just don't want to upset the mob from Ibrox.
SFA, SPL, SPFL whatever they want to call themselves I call THEM cheats and cowards. all of them.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/f5c0ead704c890b1c59df21357232cec.png


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[green is good]

How did Lord Nimmo-Smith manage to keep a straight face when he said Rangers didn't gain any unfair competitive advantage?

[ballengeich]

isn't an "independent review" a good idea or am I missing something

That will depend on the remit of the review and what assistance the SFA and SPFL are prepared to give it.

The Nimmo-Smith commission was a good idea, but football officials made sure it got the result they wanted. I'd like to know why the dates it examined were selected to exclude the DOS scheme which preceded EBTs, why the assumption was made that the EBT scheme was valid when the legal process was incomplete and why there was no appeal against the ridiculous leniency of the penalty imposed on Rangers.

It's probably correct that any appeal against Nimmo-Smith had to be within a given time so the penalty can't be amended within SFA rules. What I'd like to see is an investigation into whether the DOS scheme broke rules in the same way. I also believe there's a rule that payments to players can't be made by a third party. Now that it's established that the EBTs were wages, could a new charge be brought for infringing that?

[HoboHarry]

How did Lord Nimmo-Smith manage to keep a straight face when he said Rangers didn't gain any unfair competitive advantage?
All of his focus was on his next scheduled act with the lodge goat.......

[Is It On....]

All of his focus was on his next scheduled act with the lodge goat.......

Wonder that the initiation ceremony is like for the goat and do you think they also have to learn the secret handshake?

[Ozyhibby]

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/where-did-it-go-wrong-ann


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[lapsedhibee]

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/where-did-it-go-wrong-ann

Possibly the most coherent thing I've ever seen from a yam.

[OxoHibby]

Wonder that the initiation ceremony is like for the goat and do you think they also have to learn the secret handshake?

No it's easy for them. The handshake is based on hoofs

[Deansy]

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/where-did-it-go-wrong-ann


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Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

[Is It On....]

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/where-did-it-go-wrong-ann


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That is bang on the money..first Milne and now Budgie.. wonder what we will do.

[jacomo]

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !


Quite.

Jambos will be no allies in this.

[lapsedhibee]

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !


Quite.

Jambos will be no allies in this.

Disagree. There's no tradition of being kicked out of competitions for stealing from poppy charities, whereas there is a tradition of being kicked out for faulty player registration issues. Although stealing from charities is more reprehensible, the whitabootery argument against the yams is very weak as there's no proof, or at least no proof that we know of, that the yams were guilty of faulty player registration. It's the player registration issues (side letters) that should be the undoing of the Old Thes, not the tax issues. The player registration rules were deliberately circumvented. Punish that rule breaking, just as other clubs have traditionally been punished, but proportionately (ie not a slap on the wrist - they didn't do it for one match, they did it for at least ten years).

[Ozyhibby]

I think this will now go to judicial review. It's going to take a lot of money and will cost the SFA and SPFL plenty as well, especially if the fans win as costs are usually awarded.
It was all avoidable as well.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I think this will now go to judicial review. It's going to take a lot of money and will cost the SFA and SPFL plenty as well, especially if the fans win as costs are usually awarded.
It was all avoidable as well.


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If it does, I will be chucking my donation in when they put the hat round.

[MrSmith]

If it does, I will be chucking my donation in when they put the hat round.

Yup me too.

[Ozyhibby]

Jim Duffy on Clydefm last night said that the judicial review was a bad idea because it could open a whole can of worms about what other clubs were up to at the time.
Let's hope so, Jim, let's hope so. [emoji23]


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[stantonhibby]

Jim Duffy on Clydefm last night said that the judicial review was a bad idea because it could open a whole can of worms about what other clubs were up to at the time.
Let's hope so, Jim, let's hope so. [emoji23]


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He was DoF or something at Hearts for 10 mins or so wasnt he?

[GreenLake]

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

You nailed it.

[High-On-Hibs]

If it does, I will be chucking my donation in when they put the hat round.


Yup me too.

Thirded :agree:

[StevieC]

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

I don't see how Hearts could get dragged into this mess. Yes they paid out more than they could afford, and used Bosnian pensions to fund it, but the player registrations and declarations of earnings look to have been correct at the time. It is the EBT, and more importantly the "side letters", that is the issue (and what the supreme court was ruling on). By not declaring the EBT, now declared to have been additional earnings, they had not registered players correctly.

There is off course the argument that sporting advantage was gained, but this may prove tricky to prove legally (as per LNS report) and that argument could, potentially, go either way.

[ancient hibee]

I wonder what good any judicial review would do.If it was to examine the actions of the SPL this is an organisation that no longer exists.If it's the SFA they will point to their rule book.The only thing that might come up is whether the rule books were adequate.The one thing that certainly wouldn't be examined is the actions of any particular club.

[Kato]

I don't see how Hearts could get dragged into this mess. Yes they paid out more than they could afford, and used Bosnian pensions to fund it, but the player registrations and declarations of earnings look to have been correct at the time. It is the EBT, and more importantly the "side letters", that is the issue (and what the supreme court was ruling on). By not declaring the EBT, now declared to have been additional earnings, they had not registered players correctly.

There is off course the argument that sporting advantage was gained, but this may prove tricky to prove legally (as per LNS report) and that argument could, potentially, go either way.

Vlad did have his own tax-evasion scheme, signing players for Kaunas, registering them in Lithuania then loaning them to Hearts but paying their tax (if he ever even paid it) in Lithuania. When HMRC came after the money he shut up shop and within 6 months they were in admin. The tax was never paid and was included in their debtors list. Dunno how illegal that was but HMRC found it to be so as did the courts after a few hearings.

More worrying for them is if Romanov is allowed to be tried in the Lithuanian courts in his absence. If found guilty then Hearts would be guilty of being funded from the proceeds of criminal activity and, iirc, all results during Vlads tenure would be overturned to 0-3 results. The Lithuanian Govt are attempting to change their law at moment to allow trials in the accused absence.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wonder what good any judicial review would do.If it was to examine the actions of the SPL this is an organisation that no longer exists.If it's the SFA they will point to their rule book.The only thing that might come up is whether the rule books were adequate.The one thing that certainly wouldn't be examined is the actions of any particular club.

The SPFL is the SPL with a name change.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC175364

[ancient hibee]

The SPFL is the SPL with a name change.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC175364


No it's not.The SPFL is an amalgamation of the SPL and the Scottish Football League.It is a different organisation.

[JeMeSouviens]

No it's not.The SPFL is an amalgamation of the SPL and the Scottish Football League.It is a different organisation.

Look at the link, "previous company name". The SFL clubs were effectively absorbed into the SPL structure.

[CropleyWasGod]

Vlad did have his own tax-evasion scheme, signing players for Kaunas, registering them in Lithuania then loaning them to Hearts but paying their tax (if he ever even paid it) in Lithuania. When HMRC came after the money he shut up shop and within 6 months they were in admin. The tax was never paid and was included in their debtors list. Dunno how illegal that was but HMRC found it to be so as did the courts after a few hearings.

More worrying for them is if Romanov is allowed to be tried in the Lithuanian courts in his absence. If found guilty then Hearts would be guilty of being funded from the proceeds of criminal activity and, iirc, all results during Vlads tenure would be overturned to 0-3 results. The Lithuanian Govt are attempting to change their law at moment to allow trials in the accused absence.

Hearts' tax situation didn't go as far as the Courts. The assessment on them for the Kaunas situation was settled by negotiation (without going to a tribunal) and, according this, no penalties were payable:-

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/dec/04/hearts-hmrc-tax-dispute-resolution

As far as we know, they have done nothing illegal. They are "only" guilty of financial stupidity and not paying creditors. It's not a big leap from there to the situation of clubs who spent much more than they could afford, and got into huge debt (us, for example).

That said, that would be irrelevant in the mind of the besieged Hun. The "whitaboutery" defence would be in full cry, and many clubs would have to spend unwelcome amounts of management-time, and possibly money, just to stave that nonsense off.

[Ozyhibby]

Hearts' tax situation didn't go as far as the Courts. The assessment on them for the Kaunas situation was settled by negotiation (without going to a tribunal) and, according this, no penalties were payable:-

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/dec/04/hearts-hmrc-tax-dispute-resolution

As far as we know, they have done nothing illegal. They are "only" guilty of financial stupidity and not paying creditors. It's not a big leap from there to the situation of clubs who spent much more than they could afford, and got into huge debt (us, for example).

That said, that would be irrelevant in the mind of the besieged Hun. The "whitaboutery" defence would be in full cry, and many clubs would have to spend unwelcome amounts of management-time, and possibly money, just to stave that nonsense off.

And I doubt Hibs would have anything to worry about. If Hearts have to spend a lot of time accounting for themselves, then all good as far as I'm concerned. [emoji23]


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[CropleyWasGod]

And I doubt Hibs would have anything to worry about. If Hearts have to spend a lot of time accounting for themselves, then all good as far as I'm concerned. [emoji23]


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We have enough heat from some of our own about the debt, without worrying about anybody else. :rolleyes:

[greenginger]

Hearts' tax situation didn't go as far as the Courts. The assessment on them for the Kaunas situation was settled by negotiation (without going to a tribunal) and, according this, no penalties were payable:-

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/dec/04/hearts-hmrc-tax-dispute-resolution

As far as we know, they have done nothing illegal. They are "only" guilty of financial stupidity and not paying creditors. It's not a big leap from there to the situation of clubs who spent much more than they could afford, and got into huge debt (us, for example).

That said, that would be irrelevant in the mind of the besieged Hun. The "whitaboutery" defence would be in full cry, and many clubs would have to spend unwelcome amounts of management-time, and possibly money, just to stave that nonsense off.


How about Vlads special deal to get Skacel to resign in 2011, after he had set a wages ceiling at Hearts. Rudi met Vlad and came back with his own deal.

Later on when Rudi's agent sued him for commission he thought he was due, it was revealed in court Skacel wage on his SFA registered contract was £ 3000/week , one of the lowest at Tynecastle at the time.

The agent was looking for commission on a salary twice that of Skacel's registered salary.

I'd say that one was a slam-dunk if investigated properly.

[Ozyhibby]

How about Vlads special deal to get Skacel to resign in 2011, after he had set a wages ceiling at Hearts. Rudi met Vlad and came back with his own deal.

Later on when Rudi's agent sued him for commission he thought he was due, it was revealed in court Skacel wage on his SFA registered contract was £ 3000/week , one of the lowest at Tynecastle at the time.

The agent was looking for commission on a salary twice that of Skacel's registered salary.

I'd say that one was a slam-dunk if investigated properly.

That's the sort of stuff I expect to be leaked by the SFA to help their Ibrox friends. [emoji3]


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[greenginger]

That's the sort of stuff I expect to be leaked by the SFA to help their Ibrox friends. [emoji3]


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No no need to go public, a quiet word in the Budge woman's ear got her to toe the line.

Now if only these UBIG files would turn up in Lithuania

[greenginger]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/11/dundee-united-docked-three-points-for-fielding-two-ineligible-pl/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/11/dundee-united-docked-three-points-for-fielding-two-ineligible-pl/

Bit of a difference to the SPL treatment of Dundee Utd when they fielded a couple of ineligible players in a no count end of season game, and Rangers decade of fielding ineligible players.

You can guess who got the points deducted.

[lord bunberry]

Jim Duffy on Clydefm last night said that the judicial review was a bad idea because it could open a whole can of worms about what other clubs were up to at the time.
Let's hope so, Jim, let's hope so. [emoji23]


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Jim Duffy is a tit. Why would exposing other clubs who were cheating be a bad idea.
Some clubs gained massively by spending money they didn't have. If they broke the rules whilst doing so then they should be punished for it.

[Kaiser1962]

No no need to go public, a quiet word in the Budge woman's ear got her to toe the line.

Now if only these UBIG files would turn up in Lithuania

Or the pesky Russkies extradite Vlad.........

[Ozyhibby]

https://thecelticblog.com/2017/07/blogs/the-governing-bodies-not-only-knew-what-whyte-was-up-to-they-helped-him-do-it/


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[greenpaper55]

Rod defending Scottish football, here at his best giving a non answer as usual, if you asked Rod the time of day he would answer "it depends on where you are "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40710728

[jacomo]

https://thecelticblog.com/2017/07/blogs/the-governing-bodies-not-only-knew-what-whyte-was-up-to-they-helped-him-do-it/


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Well I've lost count of the number of Celtc blogs that drone on about their own foresight and superiority instead of getting to the ****ing point.

[jacomo]

Rod defending Scottish football, here at his best giving a non answer as usual, if you asked Rod the time of day he would answer "it depends on where you are "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40710728


This is from before the spfl statement.

I had hoped Rod was just being non-committal so as not to pre-empt it.

[DCI Gene Hunt]

Jeez, some of these Thellick blogs are tedious in the extreme. Zzzzzzz. What a waste of bandwidth and time. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of waffle that can be summed up by many of our posters in one sentence...

[majorhibs]

Rangers cheated paying players plenty because they were not paying U.K. tax but paying the players direct. Evidence aplenty! That is why these better players signed for the huns. So they were cheating against their competitors, who were not. Competitors fans, who paid money to watch their teams in the "Scottish leagues" but did not know this throughput 10+ years, are now aggrieved & want honours awarded to cheats, like in all other sports, removed. What is difficult here?

[Andy74]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/11/dundee-united-docked-three-points-for-fielding-two-ineligible-pl/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/11/dundee-united-docked-three-points-for-fielding-two-ineligible-pl/

Bit of a difference to the SPL treatment of Dundee Utd when they fielded a couple of ineligible players in a no count end of season game, and Rangers decade of fielding ineligible players.

You can guess who got the points deducted.

Yes but from what I can gather from all this is that the rules in place then just didn't cover this stuff and they had no power to do anything else. This was confirmed by judicial review.

It's not a great position but it is the only position there is and so whilst things have hopefully changed since and there can be a review of whether the current rules are now correct or not there's little more can be done about the Rangers issue.

[jacomo]

Rangers cheated paying players plenty because they were not paying U.K. tax but paying the players direct. Evidence aplenty! That is why these better players signed for the huns. So they were cheating against their competitors, who were not. Competitors fans, who paid money to watch their teams in the "Scottish leagues" but did not know this throughput 10+ years, are now aggrieved & want honours awarded to cheats, like in all other sports, removed. What is difficult here?


That's exactly it.

[jacomo]

Yes but from what I can gather from all this is that the rules in place then just didn't cover this stuff and they had no power to do anything else. This was confirmed by judicial review.

It's not a great position but it is the only position there is and so whilst things have hopefully changed since and there can be a review of whether the current rules are now correct or not there's little more can be done about the Rangers issue.


It reeks though doesn't it?

[Andy74]

Rangers cheated paying players plenty because they were not paying U.K. tax but paying the players direct. Evidence aplenty! That is why these better players signed for the huns. So they were cheating against their competitors, who were not. Competitors fans, who paid money to watch their teams in the "Scottish leagues" but did not know this throughput 10+ years, are now aggrieved & want honours awarded to cheats, like in all other sports, removed. What is difficult here?

Nothing at all wrong in what you say but the difficult thing is the rules in place at the time didn't allow for any further penalty and so legally the authorities can't do any more.

[Andy74]

It reeks though doesn't it?

Certainty does but I'm just confirming the reality of the crap situation!

The focus on punishing Rangers now is futile. The focus should be on the accountability of the leadership of the game at the time and ensuring the rules are more palatable now.

[jacomo]

Certainty does but I'm just confirming the reality of the crap situation!

The focus on punishing Rangers now is futile. The focus should be on the accountability of the leadership of the game at the time and ensuring the rules are more palatable now.


The only way that will happen is if heads roll. So long as regan and Doncaster are there this shambles will continue.

[Thecat23]

Nothing at all wrong in what you say but the difficult thing is the rules in place at the time didn't allow for any further penalty and so legally the authorities can't do any more.

Do you think there is a case to be made against those in charge of our game at the time? I've had numerous discussions about this with friends and it just stinks Andy. I think or should I say hope, action could still be taking for letting this whole thing happen.

[660]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?1115214-Hearts-FC-and-tax-issues

[Ozyhibby]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?1115214-Hearts-FC-and-tax-issues

We need to send Sergey over to help them out with the gaps in their knowledge. [emoji23]
I fully support the Sevconians in this whataboutery.


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[lord bunberry]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?1115214-Hearts-FC-and-tax-issues
I've been waiting for this to happen.

[Jack Hackett]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?1115214-Hearts-FC-and-tax-issues


Can't argue with this particular summation of our neighbours:-

"And as for their response to the troubles we've faced since 2012, they've shown themselves to be the biggest small minded and hypocritical bunch of erseholes we could never wish to meet. I hope that their new stand slowly sinks into the ground and swallows up every groat they've borrowed.

****** Hypocrites!"

2 baldy men fighting over a comb

:greengrin

[Is It On....]

We need to send Sergey over to help them out with the gaps in their knowledge. [emoji23]
I fully support the Sevconians in this whataboutery.


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"One could argue that they (Hearts) signed players that they could not afford." Who on here has a password as that's not the normal language you see on follow follow..

[surreyhibbie]

We need to send Sergey over to help them out with the gaps in their knowledge. [emoji23]
I fully support the Sevconians in this whataboutery.


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That is an impressive post over there, and difficult to disagree with any of it..

[CentreLine]

That is an impressive post over there, and difficult to disagree with any of it..

Only the bit where it says HMRC agreed to a CVA. It seems that BFO played fast and loose with the eligibility of creditors to vote and HMRC were outvoted to allow a CVA

[CropleyWasGod]

That is an impressive post over there, and difficult to disagree with any of it..They weren't charged with tax evasion.

Neither has anyone at RFC, although that may be coming up in Series 9 [emoji16]

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[Is It On....]

They weren't charged with tax evasion.

Neither has anyone at RFC, although that may be coming up in Series 9 [emoji16]

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A few of them are probably looking up the number of Saul Goodman..

[neil7908]

Another home draw in the cup for Rangers - how many is that in a row now?

[Jack Hackett]

Another home draw in the cup for Rangers - how many is that in a row now?

Must be getting close to their fabled 55... Hertz got there first though :greengrin

[GreenLake]

Can't argue with this particular summation of our neighbours:-

"And as for their response to the troubles we've faced since 2012, they've shown themselves to be the biggest small minded and hypocritical bunch of erseholes we could never wish to meet. I hope that their new stand slowly sinks into the ground and swallows up every groat they've borrowed.

****** Hypocrites!"

2 baldy men fighting over a comb

:greengrin
:faf:

[Ozyhibby]

Board meeting today. Are we likely to hear a peep from Hibs about our position on Rangers cheating us for over a decade or will we just meekly accept it?


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[Bostonhibby]

Board meeting today. Are we likely to hear a peep from Hibs about our position on Rangers cheating us for over a decade or will we just meekly accept it?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm regrettably leaning towards already meekly accepted and now just looking for the reason why.

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[MrSmith]

Not buying season tix nor home or away strips for my three boys this year. Need to recoup over a decade of putting money into a rigged league. Chew on that Rod!

[660]

Not buying season tix nor home or away strips for my three boys this year. Need to recoup over a decade of putting money into a rigged league. Chew on that Rod!

Bet he's gutted.

[HoboHarry]

Board meeting today. Are we likely to hear a peep from Hibs about our position on Rangers cheating us for over a decade or will we just meekly accept it?


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We will accept it the same as Budge did and for reasons I simply don't understand.

[ian cruise]

Not buying season tix nor home or away strips for my three boys this year. Need to recoup over a decade of putting money into a rigged league. Chew on that Rod!

Did the cost of Hibs tickets or strips go up over that period purely due to Rangers activities? I was under the impression our ticket pricing and club merchandise was priced as it always was with allowances increased due to inflation and rising costs?

How much are we as fans needing to recoup from this period? This could be the latest PPP type claim scenario. I was previously mistaken in to thinking I was paying my money to support Hibs, I didn't realise it was going towards Rangers cheating.

[Geo_1875]

Did the cost of Hibs tickets or strips go up over that period purely due to Rangers activities? I was under the impression our ticket pricing and club merchandise was priced as it always was with allowances increased due to inflation and rising costs?

How much are we as fans needing to recoup from this period? This could be the latest PPP type claim scenario. I was previously mistaken in to thinking I was paying my money to support Hibs, I didn't realise it was going towards Rangers cheating.

Same here, but I was paying my money to support Hibs in their attempts to win trophies. Turns out we could have kept a lot of our money and ended up in the same place.

[MrSmith]

Did the cost of Hibs tickets or strips go up over that period purely due to Rangers activities? I was under the impression our ticket pricing and club merchandise was priced as it always was with allowances increased due to inflation and rising costs?

How much are we as fans needing to recoup from this period? This could be the latest PPP type claim scenario. I was previously mistaken in to thinking I was paying my money to support Hibs, I didn't realise it was going towards Rangers cheating.

I was under the impression that buying season tix and merchandise would give hibs a sporting chance to put players on the pitch. Seems I was paying into a system corrupted by those who are guilty of association and complicity.

[ian cruise]

Same here, but I was paying my money to support Hibs in their attempts to win trophies. Turns out we could have kept a lot of our money and ended up in the same place.

Would we have ended up in the same place? I'm sure other clubs would have spent to take themselves above us. We spent the maximum we could afford to get to the best position we could. Celtic would still have out spent everyone meaning the rest of Scottish football would have spent the same trying to get as close to them as possible. Since Rangers imploded have we had to spend less on football? Your argument would suggest we have?

[HoboHarry]

Would we have ended up in the same place? I'm sure other clubs would have spent to take themselves above us. We spent the maximum we could afford to get to the best position we could. Celtic would still have out spent everyone meaning the rest of Scottish football would have spent the same trying to get as close to them as possible. Since Rangers imploded have we had to spend less on football? Your argument would suggest we have?
You are defending the indefensible. Until sevco, cheating has always been punished in sport and regardless of our current expenditure we were competing on a playing field that was even more out of level than we had believed.

[plhibs]

We will accept it the same as Budge did and for reasons I simply don't understand.

Easy to understand (IMHO) they've all been told keep quiet and don't rock the boat. It's a disgrace and will continue to be while the corrupt SPFL caters to only two teams.

[SGE HIBS]

You are defending the indefensible. Until sevco, cheating has always been punished in sport and regardless of our current expenditure we were competing on a playing field that was even more out of level than we had believed.


All those leagues and trophies we won before this and since its been brought out ,it certainly adds weight to your argument

[HoboHarry]

All those leagues and trophies we won before this and since its been brought out ,it certainly adds weight to your argument

Aye that's the spirit. We weren't very good so everyone else should have the right to cheat.

[ian cruise]

You are defending the indefensible. Until sevco, cheating has always been punished in sport and regardless of our current expenditure we were competing on a playing field that was even more out of level than we had believed.

You're missing my point. I'm not defending Rangers but the original OP said he was needing to recoup money he lost due to their actions, which is nonsense. There is plenty of evidence to condemn Rangers but let's not just go making stuff up or claiming withholding support from Hibs is thw morally correct way to punish Rangers.

[Ozyhibby]

All those leagues and trophies we won before this and since its been brought out ,it certainly adds weight to your argument

Actually since Rangers got caught, our cup comps have been spread around nicely and we have won the Scottish.


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[HoboHarry]

Easy to understand (IMHO) they've all been told keep quiet and don't rock the boat. It's a disgrace and will continue to be while the corrupt SPFL caters to only two teams.

I get that Budge has been railroaded into keeping quiet but why would she agree since she was supposed to be part of a new dynamic? She has been corrupted just like the rest but I would like to know what it is that makes them all bow to Sevco.

[JeMeSouviens]

Actually since Rangers got caught, our cup comps have been spread around nicely and we have won the Scottish.


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And the Sheep in particular were closing the gap to Celtc a bit. That's gone a bit backwards with the arrival of Sevco in the top league pushing Celtc ST numbers back up and pressuring their board to get Rodgers in.

[Stubbsy2016]

https://mobile.twitter.com/thefootystands/status/891773583910998016

A new one for the songbook, how simple can you get...

[ian cruise]

Actually since Rangers got caught, our cup comps have been spread around nicely and we have won the Scottish.


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A valid point. I don't disagree that having Rangers compete on an equal footing (i.e. paying what they can afford for players) increases the chances of other clubs winning trophies. I don't see what stripping trophies retrospectively gains other than giving us something to cast over them. The club and the fans will ignore it, some may get wound up granted, but in the main it's the equivalent of putting a big sign saying SHAME round their neck and walking them up and down the length of the country. Will it determine other clubs? I suspect not as they're not retrospectively being asked to hand back their winnings. The fans still remember the players with the trophies in their hands, the club still has pictures of the players lifting the trophies and the players have their medals. Rangers argue they could have afforded them anyway so the onus is on the accuser, SPFL or whoever to prove they couldn't even though the tax would have been higher.

A more suitable punishment would be a signing embargo alongside a fine for previously nor declaring contracts as the rules demanded. That's an acknowledgement the previous entity did wrong and if they are, as claimed, the same club then the team currently playing in the SPFL should carry the punishment.

My point is that saying you're not giving Hibs any money doesn't punish Rangers in any way unless we were complicit at the time and ignored it.

[ian cruise]

And the Sheep in particular were closing the gap to Celtc a bit. That's gone a bit backwards with the arrival of Sevco in the top league pushing Celtc ST numbers back up and pressuring their board to get Rodgers in.

Arguable that is more to do with Delia being very, very poor. Celtic needed more CL football rather than just two legs and would have pushed for a signing of Rodgers standing anyway in my opinion. They need the world to think of the as a big club.

[MrSmith]

You're missing my point. I'm not defending Rangers but the original OP said he was needing to recoup money he lost due to their actions, which is nonsense. There is plenty of evidence to condemn Rangers but let's not just go making stuff up or claiming withholding support from Hibs is thw morally correct way to punish Rangers.
Spectacularly wrong. My club hibs, should be at the forefront of justice in regards to rangers cheating. They are not and are complicit in the 5-way agreement and allowing this farcical merry go round to continue. Why should I now put my hard earned in?

[plhibs]

I get that Budge has been railroaded into keeping quiet but why would she agree since she was supposed to be part of a new dynamic? She has been corrupted just like the rest but I would like to know what it is that makes them all bow to Sevco.

The SPFL wants this to go away, no other explanation. I think they all want to protect themselves and don't want anymore dirt raked up about the whole sorry mess.

[Bostonhibby]

Spectacularly wrong. My club hibs, should be at the forefront of justice in regards to rangers cheating. They are not and are complicit in the 5-way agreement and allowing this farcical merry go round to continue. Why should I now put my hard earned in?

Sadly. I think when we do get a statement from Hibs this will be essentially correct however the club choose to dress it up.

I will be spending everything I always do on Hibs but respect everyone who supports us has the right to do what they like with their hard earner dosh.

However they dress it up, the now defunct glasgow rangers got an on field advantage as a result of the fiddle they operated to ensure they could pay more money to players they couldn't otherwise attract, and their rivals who didn't cheat in this way couldn't afford. It sticks in the throat whenever I think about the "sporting integrity" statement.

[ian cruise]

Spectacularly wrong. My club hibs, should be at the forefront of justice in regards to rangers cheating. They are not and are complicit in the 5-way agreement and allowing this farcical merry go round to continue. Why should I now put my hard earned in?

That's a different argument. Withholding funds and/or support because you disagree with what they have decided to do as retrospective punishment to the uncovering of prior cheating is different from recouping lost money that you previously spent. So I'm not spectacularly wrong, you're just changing your reason for not giving Hibs money. Something I entirely agree is you decision to do regardless of the reason, and if it is the latter reason you've given, it's a valid and strong point, but it's not recouping a loss.

[greenginger]

Can The Rangers just not be made to face the truth that they are a new Club and what was won by the liquidated club Rangers 1872 does not belong on their trophy list so the cheating is history.

The fact is the only senior prize this Club has is a Scottish Cup runners up 2016 award. :greengrin

[MrSmith]

That's a different argument. Withholding funds and/or support because you disagree with what they have decided to do as retrospective punishment to the uncovering of prior cheating is different from recouping lost money that you previously spent. So I'm not spectacularly wrong, you're just changing your reason for not giving Hibs money. Something I entirely agree is you decision to do regardless of the reason, and if it is the latter reason you've given, it's a valid and strong point, but it's not recouping a loss.

the point is, there is no two arguments or more! There is duplicity and complicity in it all and has brought about a situation of which has killed our game in terms of sporting fairness. Again, our club should be at the forefront screaming for justice along with those others who have suffered - over the period - due to keeping their house in order. We the fans, have footed the bill that enabled rangers to be successful through non payment of tax and NI. ITS ILLEGAL, CHEATING AND NEEDS ADDRESSED.

[MrSmith]

Until then, I will not put any money into my team till it proves it is not complicit nor guilty by association. Have hibs proved this?

[Blaster]

Until then, I will not put any money into my team till it proves it is not complicit nor guilty by association. Have hibs proved this?

Punishing your club for rangers misbehaving

Cracking logic 👍👍

[MrSmith]

Punishing your club for rangers misbehaving

Cracking logic 👍👍

No I'm punishing a lack of courage and justice. Our club is complicit.

[MrSmith]

Why were the SPL determined to get rid of David Longmuir? Look him up. He spoke up for the teams in the lower divisions and refused SEVCO entry at division 1. This whole episode stinks! Why can't we get info on the 5-way agreement? What did they do? Sold Scottish football's soul? Certainly seems that way.

[Blaster]

No I'm punishing a lack of courage and justice. Our club is complicit.

My club is more important to me than due punishment to rangers (which we would all like to happen but unfortunately isn't going to happen now)

By punishing hibs you are effectively benefitting other clubs including The Rangers.

[MrSmith]

My club is more important to me than due punishment to rangers (which we would all like to happen but unfortunately isn't going to happen now)

By punishing hibs you are effectively benefitting other clubs including The Rangers.

Yep lets do nothing and accept cheating. Sorry no can do.

[Blaster]

Yep lets do nothing and accept cheating. Sorry no can do.

I think it stinks too. But still can't fathom out why any hibs fan would take it out financially on their own club

[connerg]

Until then, I will not put any money into my team till it proves it is not complicit nor guilty by association. Have hibs proved this?

Must admit i've considered walking away from Scottish football since the The Rangers and Hearts were caught.

[Smartie]

I think it stinks too. But still can't fathom out why any hibs fan would take it out financially on their own club

That argument is the emotional blackmail that I expect will be heaped on us the next time we're being asked to stump up for season tickets, from Hibs and from our own fans.

Hibs happily took decent sums off us for season tickets for a rigged competition, and our representatives are complicit in the current whitewashing.

Rangers shouldn't have been allowed to play in Europe this season, our authorities fudged it.

Do you have any faith in our current authorities to run a fair competition? I don't.

And as long as Hibs have 12,000 people pitching up wanting season tickets they won't care either.

Hibs are complicit in the cover up, sell season tickets for rigged competitions and a decent argument could be made that they deserve to be hurt in some way.

Which is sad. I loved it when Rod "sporting integrity" Petrie was leading from the front.

[jacomo]

Until then, I will not put any money into my team till it proves it is not complicit nor guilty by association. Have hibs proved this?


Hibs are neither complicit in cheating nor guilty by association.

The authorities have given themselves legal cover not to retrospectively strip titles from Deadco. That is a separate argument.

[Blaster]

That argument is the emotional blackmail that I expect will be heaped on us the next time we're being asked to stump up for season tickets, from Hibs and from our own fans.

Hibs happily took decent sums off us for season tickets for a rigged competition, and our representatives are complicit in the current whitewashing.

Rangers shouldn't have been allowed to play in Europe this season, our authorities fudged it.

Do you have any faith in our current authorities to run a fair competition? I don't.

And as long as Hibs have 12,000 people pitching up wanting season tickets they won't care either.

Hibs are complicit in the cover up, sell season tickets for rigged competitions and a decent argument could be made that they deserve to be hurt in some way.

Which is sad. I loved it when Rod "sporting integrity" Petrie was leading from the front.

I don't have faith in governments but still pay my taxes 😄

Most of the time......

[Smartie]

I don't have faith in governments but still pay my taxes 😄

Most of the time......

Most folk don't have any choice about whether or not to pay tax.

The purchase of a season ticket is a different matter.

[stantonhibby]

Most folk don't have any choice about whether or not to pay tax.

The purchase of a season ticket is a different matter.

The season tickets were sold in good faith at the time as no one other than Rangers knew it was a rigged competition.

[Smartie]

The season tickets were sold in good faith at the time as no one other than Rangers knew it was a rigged competition.

True.

I'm less concerned about what has gone on in the past. I'm not as militant as some about title-stripping but i think it would be a helpful part of the rehabilitation.

Of far more concern to me is that it appears that no lessons have been learned. Certain clubs are being given preferential treatment. Most of the people who were involved around the time of Sevco's rebirth, the 5-way agreement and the misleading of Lord Nimmo-Smith are all still in positions of influence.

I'm still going to go along this season as I've already paid for it.

I'll think long and hard next season.

I just want to see a fair competition and I'm not remotely convinced that it is.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not buying season tix nor home or away strips for my three boys this year. Need to recoup over a decade of putting money into a rigged league. Chew on that Rod!

:agree:

[MrSmith]

Hibs are neither complicit in cheating nor guilty by association.

The authorities have given themselves legal cover not to retrospectively strip titles from Deadco. That is a separate argument.

We are complicit in the 5-way agreement plus allowing this farce to continue. Rod as part of the SFA/SPFL could've done more to ensure fairness and transparency as well as determining rules re cheating. Has he done enough?

[kaimendhibs]

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-31/jessica-ennis-hill-itv-news-interview/

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[kaimendhibs]

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-31/jessica-ennis-hill-itv-news-interview/

Sent from my SM-G935F using TapatalkThank god for her it didnt happen in Scotland. Shame on our football 'authorities' cough

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[Ozyhibby]

Statement from Hibs this week.


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[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-31/jessica-ennis-hill-itv-news-interview/

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Don't know what she's moaning about? That medal was won fair and square on the track. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

Given the wholesale cheating in the past and the continuing cover-up by the authorities how can anyone be sure of "sporting integrity" in the future?

And who would be mug enough to invest time, money and emotion in a rigged competition?

[KazaHibs]

Statement from Hibs this week.


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Let's hope Leeann is up for the fight. I think she will. Lead from the front and others hopefully will follow!

[green day]

Let's hope Leeann is up for the fight. I think she will. Lead from the front and others hopefully will follow!

I'd rather she spent time helping to sign players to allow us to have a great league campaign than be distracted by this.

I realise that won't be universally popular.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd rather she spent time helping to sign players to allow us to have a great league campaign than be distracted by this.

I realise that won't be universally popular.

That would be great but it might be in vain if we are playing in a rigged competition.


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[lapsedhibee]

Hibs are neither complicit in cheating nor guilty by association.

The authorities have given themselves legal cover not to retrospectively strip titles from Deadco. That is a separate argument.

They wouldn't be retrospectively stripping titles. They would be stripping titles, which can only be stripped after they've been won.

The idea that it would be somehow backward-looking to punish Old The is hun-apologist myth-making. It would be entirely forward-looking, making a statement that from now on rigging the game is not on.

"Given themselves legal cover"? Let's hear what the legal advice was then. Until it's transparent, that legal cover might as well be entirely made-up pish.

[jacomo]

They wouldn't be retrospectively stripping titles. They would be stripping titles, which can only be stripped after they've been won.

The idea that it would be somehow backward-looking to punish Old The is hun-apologist myth-making. It would be entirely forward-looking, making a statement that from now on rigging the game is not on.

"Given themselves legal cover"? Let's hear what the legal advice was then. Until it's transparent, that legal cover might as well be entirely made-up pish.


Legal advice summarised here:

https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-press-release-84/

[Ozyhibby]

I'm almost certain that this will now go to judicial review so the truth will out eventually. I'd just prefer Hibs to have taken the morally correct stance on this.


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[MrSmith]

I'm almost certain that this will now go to judicial review so the truth will out eventually. I'd just prefer Hibs to have taken the morally correct stance on this.


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David Longmuir is the key for me! By amalgamating the associations our governing bodies ensured they could not retrospectively punish rangers. This has been a butt covering exercise since 2010. Al the SPFL top team boards are covering up now as the list of bodies will shock most. Legal advice - ay right!

[Ozyhibby]

David Longmuir is the key for me! By amalgamating the associations our governing bodies ensured they could not retrospectively punish rangers. This has been a butt covering exercise since 2010. Al the SPFL top team boards are covering up now as the list of bodies will shock most. Legal advice - ay right!

BDO had legal advice that the could win the big tax case. Legal advice is meaningless. Half the lawyers in most cases are on the losing side.


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[Geo_1875]

This "legal advice" argument is nonsense. Football has rules and if a rule is broken, in this case improperly registered players, you suffer the consequences. League titles were won under the SPL. The SPL no longer exist. The SPFL could make a statement that those league titles would no longer be recognised and Sevco wouldn't have a leg to stand on or anybody to take legal action against.

[green day]

I'm almost certain that this will now go to judicial review so the truth will out eventually. I'd just prefer Hibs to have taken the morally correct stance on this.


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Which is?

[MrSmith]

Which is?

to be at the forefront of seeing justice served upon cheats!

[green day]

to be at the forefront of seeing justice served upon cheats!

OK, but at the risk of repeating some stuff waaaay up thread "seeing justice served upon cheats"

Which cheats - David Murray? Barry the crab?????

The club (that doesnt exist any more) ?

[CropleyWasGod]

Why were the SPL determined to get rid of David Longmuir? Look him up. He spoke up for the teams in the lower divisions and refused SEVCO entry at division 1. This whole episode stinks! Why can't we get info on the 5-way agreement? What did they do? Sold Scottish football's soul? Certainly seems that way.

This is it, allegedly.

https://www.sfm.scot/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/164607084-5-Way-Agreement-As-issued-to-all-parties-for-signature-1.pdf

[MrSmith]

This is it, allegedly.

https://www.sfm.scot/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/164607084-5-Way-Agreement-As-issued-to-all-parties-for-signature-1.pdf

Thanks for that, will look forward to reading it.

[Jack Hackett]

OK, but at the risk of repeating some stuff waaaay up thread "seeing justice served upon cheats"

Which cheats - David Murray? Barry the crab?????

The club (that doesnt exist any more) ?

How about the 'new' club which claims to be the 'old' club, but only when it suits them. Especially when it comes to claiming tainted trophies and titles?

[MrSmith]

OK, but at the risk of repeating some stuff waaaay up thread "seeing justice served upon cheats"

Which cheats - David Murray? Barry the crab?????

The club (that doesnt exist any more) ?

option 3. Justice can be served retrospectively on rapists, pedophiles and murderers. Rangers are liquidated but still in the SFA record books as winning these trophies. I'd be happy with an asterisk or deleted from the records.

[lapsedhibee]

Legal advice summarised here:

https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-press-release-84/

Thanks. Hadn't seen that. Bad start to the statement though ....

The SPFL Board today announced, following legal advice from eminent Senior Counsel, Gerry Moynihan Q.C....

"We've got a big lawyer, not from Arbroath." "My dad's bigger than your dad." Stressing how big your lawyer is doesn't make his argument or reasoning more correct, or valuable, at all ....

[hibee_nation]

Hibs have nothing to lose and everything to gain by coming out with a strong statement saying yes effectively rangers cheated and the titles they won are tainted and should be stripped from the record books. The titles may not be stripped but i can live with that as long as we show sporting integrity really does mean something to Hibernian FC not just cheap talk. Lets face it the only people in Scotland who would object are the huns and i doubt if they could hate us anymore anyway. GGTTH.

[green day]

I'd be happy with an asterisk or deleted from the records.

OK, but - playing devils advocate again - its a nailed on certainty that "having an asterisk" isnt going to cut it for some (i.e. losing cup finalists) people.

My guess would be that any statement that the tainted trophies will be "asterisked" will cause as much hassle / debate / argument as is currently going on.

No question they cheated, no debate about that - but, short of chucking the new club out (which would be hilarious, but will never happen) I really cant see what will satisfy all the different opinions.

[JeMeSouviens]

OK, but - playing devils advocate again - its a nailed on certainty that "having an asterisk" isnt going to cut it for some (i.e. losing cup finalists) people.

My guess would be that any statement that the tainted trophies will be "asterisked" will cause as much hassle / debate / argument as is currently going on.

No question they cheated, no debate about that - but, short of chucking the new club out (which would be hilarious, but will never happen) I really cant see what will satisfy all the different opinions.

I really don't think you're right. The poll on here was overwhelmingly in favour of asterisking. The threads on Hearts, Aberdeen and Celtic message boards suggest similar.

It's an absolute no-brainer to void the honours won by the old Rangers over the years in question although if you gave me the option of only that or only Doncaster/Regan sacked and replaced I'd choose the latter every time.

[Ozyhibby]

What's needed more than anything is the truth. What were the roles of Campbell Ogilvie, Andrew Dickson etc? Who at the SFA knew this was happening and when? Why was LNS evidence withheld? Why no action against any individual involved?
This needs a full investigation with lawyers representing the fans to make sure we get to the bottom of it. All the evidence is out there, the authorities need to start answering to it.


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[ancient hibee]

I really don't think you're right. The poll on here was overwhelmingly in favour of asterisking. The threads on Hearts, Aberdeen and Celtic message boards suggest similar.

It's an absolute no-brainer to void the honours won by the old Rangers over the years in question although if you gave me the option of only that or only Doncaster/Regan sacked and replaced I'd choose the latter every time.
Surely the main point about the poll is that the majority of .netters were not interested enough to take part.

[Ozyhibby]

Surely the main point about the poll is that the majority of .netters were not interested enough to take part.

You can't claim everyone who didn't vote for one side or the other.[emoji23]
The poll is a representative sample and quite a big one at that. I think about 500 people took part, which makes up a fairly big percentage of Hibs fans and likely makes it more accurate than most opinion polls.


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[Is It On....]

Thanks. Hadn't seen that. Bad start to the statement though ....

The SPFL Board today announced, following legal advice from eminent Senior Counsel, Gerry Moynihan Q.C....

"We've got a big lawyer, not from Arbroath." "My dad's bigger than your dad." Stressing how big your lawyer is doesn't make his argument or reasoning more correct, or valuable, at all ....

Lots of mentions of Rangers OldCo...does that mean they accept that GRFC are an ex club...?

[Is It On....]

What's needed more than anything is the truth. What were the roles of Campbell Ogilvie, Andrew Dickson etc? Who at the SFA knew this was happening and when? Why was LNS evidence withheld? Why no action against any individual involved?
This needs a full investigation with lawyers representing the fans to make sure we get to the bottom of it. All the evidence is out there, the authorities need to start answering to it.


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I agree with this 100%. The truth is truly powerful which is why they don't want it to come out and why this soap opera will continue to run and run.

[Bostonhibby]

OK, but - playing devils advocate again - its a nailed on certainty that "having an asterisk" isnt going to cut it for some (i.e. losing cup finalists) people.

My guess would be that any statement that the tainted trophies will be "asterisked" will cause as much hassle / debate / argument as is currently going on.

No question they cheated, no debate about that - but, short of chucking the new club out (which would be hilarious, but will never happen) I really cant see what will satisfy all the different opinions.

Good post, and I think its fair to say you can't satisfy every opinion.

I also know that in most legal opinion based matters, they are matters of opinion based on the law and its perfectly possible to pay a QC to skew an advice the way the instructing client wants it, they do have to protect their clients interests.

The authorities are as tainted by this as the now defunct Glasgow rangers were and they will use the strict legal interpretation they have to hide behind. They will also correctly say the old legal entity has gone and we have a nice shiny new SPFL with its new rules.:blah::blah:

There are going to be legal technicalities to hide behind, they've prepared the ground well. I think what is actually required here is someone to say that it's okay to ignore the strict legal position and do the morally right thing, there's no doubt that would begin to restore some faith in the people who run Scottish football for the rest of us.

The right thing for me is to just place on record that those titles and trophies were won the way most people see, that is by gaining an unfair, and now illegally gained advantage over those that didn't do it on this scale or at all.

Johnny Hun will belch loudly and threaten everyone else around them and may find another friendly judge in a system that is riddled with them, they may even get a favourable legal ruling but at least the authorities will have taken the moral high ground if they were to do this.

Sporting integrity and leaving the titles with the now defunct entity are incompatible, especially now the highest court in the land has ruled on how they got them. Sporting integrity needs to be re-established in the eyes of the people who are to be reassured about that integrity now and in the future. Removing tainted titles and trophies is the way to do it, it shouldn't really matter as the club involved is no more - depending on which issue they have to deal with.

[JeMeSouviens]

Surely the main point about the poll is that the majority of .netters were not interested enough to take part.

Aye ok then. "No appetite"? :rolleyes:

[Monts]

Surely the main point about the poll is that the majority of .netters were not interested enough to take part.

Or possibly that many people, like me, use their phones to read this, and its not possible to vote on the mobile platform.

[green day]

What's needed more than anything is the truth. What were the roles of Campbell Ogilvie, Andrew Dickson etc? Who at the SFA knew this was happening and when? Why was LNS evidence withheld? Why no action against any individual involved?
This needs a full investigation with lawyers representing the fans to make sure we get to the bottom of it. All the evidence is out there, the authorities need to start answering to it.


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Kind of makes my point earlier. Lots of people want asterisks, you want that plus something else.

I can't see anyone being totally happy with any outcome and am 100% certain that even with voided (whatever that means) title wins, there will still be loads of dissenting voices.

[FilipinoHibs]

option 3. Justice can be served retrospectively on rapists, pedophiles and murderers. Rangers are liquidated but still in the SFA record books as winning these trophies. I'd be happy with an asterisk or deleted from the records.

No need to recalculate league tables or give runners up the trophies. Just an asteroid with Comptition Void. That is what Rangers did to the football in Scotland. Same for Hertz and their three cups won by cheating.

[green day]

No need to recalculate league tables or give runners up the trophies. Just an asteroid with Comptition Void. That is what Rangers did to the football in Scotland. Same for Hertz and their three cups won by cheating.

Would that asteroid be hitting Ibrox then 😁😁😁

[Ozyhibby]

Kind of makes my point earlier. Lots of people want asterisks, you want that plus something else.

I can't see anyone being totally happy with any outcome and am 100% certain that even with voided (whatever that means) title wins, there will still be loads of dissenting voices.

What almost no Hibs fans are saying is do nothing though, which is the path we are on.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Would that asteroid be hitting Ibrox then 😁😁😁

Here's hoping, Last time an asteroid hit earth the dinosaurs became extinct. And they say lightning doesn't strike twice :wink:

[ancient hibee]

You can't claim everyone who didn't vote for one side or the other.[emoji23]
The poll is a representative sample and quite a big one at that. I think about 500 people took part, which makes up a fairly big percentage of Hibs fans and likely makes it more accurate than most opinion polls.


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Actually I didn't make any claim one way or the other merely pointed out that the majority of netters did not vote.It's around 5percent of season ticket numbers.Who knows if it's representative of anything.Obviously those keenest in seeing something happen are in the majority of those who put forward a view.Equally the vast majority are not putting forward a view.Does it mean anything,no idea.What is certain is that the office bearers of the two organisations ,having taken legal advice,will do nothing as presumably if they did they would be personally liable for any costs.

[Ozyhibby]

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