Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[magpie1892]

I expect Hampden will require payment for the use of the stadium in advance.

So they'll be paying the Queens', if not the Queen.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

You really think Glasgae Cooncil will deny them a safety certificate?

I'd imagine they'll just cross their fingers and hope for the best.

Gets fans hate Glasgow city council more than the SNP! Its a cafflick, jobs for the boys cabal don't you know.

[Paisley Hibby]

There has been a massive amount of rumours circulating the inter web the last couple of weeks that Sevco are in trouble with bills being unpaid and Hector getting ready to make a move.
Phil Mac has went from a blog every 3 weeks to about 3 a day recently.
There is nothing concrete yet but it's fun to speculate.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/hector-gets-in-touch-with-old-friends-and-sevco-spins-out-of-control/



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What he says about unpaid VAT for this year can't be right. As I understand it, system now in place is for HMRC to advise SFA or SPFL of ANY late payment by ANY club. That should then automatically trigger footballing sanctions...assuming SFA/SPFL would actually sanction The Rangers of course.

[Ozyhibby]

What he says about unpaid VAT for this year can't be right. As I understand it, system now in place is for HMRC to advise SFA or SPFL of ANY late payment by ANY club. That should then automatically trigger footballing sanctions...assuming SFA/SPFL would actually sanction The Rangers of course.

I don't think it's HMRC that inform them, it's the club themselves who have to do that.


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[Ozyhibby]

Gets fans hate Glasgow city council more than the SNP! Its a cafflick, jobs for the boys cabal don't you know.

Such is their level of paranoia that some of them think the Orange lodge is the same.


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[CropleyWasGod]

I don't think it's HMRC that inform them, it's the club themselves who have to do that.


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HMRC can't tell anybody about anyone's tax affairs, unless forced to do so by the Courts.

[CropleyWasGod]

What he says about unpaid VAT for this year can't be right. As I understand it, system now in place is for HMRC to advise SFA or SPFL of ANY late payment by ANY club. That should then automatically trigger footballing sanctions...assuming SFA/SPFL would actually sanction The Rangers of course.

Pretty sure it's only late PAYE that causes an issue, although would be happy (blissfully so) to be proved wrong.

[greenginger]

http://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__therulesofthescottishprofessionalfootball leagueasat19january2016_1461332495.pdf

SPFL rule E 20 mentions any Tax amount due to HMRC. I think it should include late VAT.


The Rangers probably claim it refers to Death Duties . :greengrin

[magpie1892]

What he says about unpaid VAT for this year can't be right. As I understand it, system now in place is for HMRC to advise SFA or SPFL of ANY late payment by ANY club. That should then automatically trigger footballing sanctions...assuming SFA/SPFL would actually sanction The Rangers of course.

He's got years of form for fabricating stories and/or embellishing the truth, which is what he's doing here.

Yes, the the rangers are up **** creek financially again, but VAT is not the issue - it's a complete lack of working capital exacerbated by crumbling ibrox and their hilarious summer signings, having no access to credit, King's mystery millions, etc., etc.,

Phil whatever-his-name-is is a well-known (especially in 'Republican' circles) fantasist who would have us believe he's got a mole in the rangers boardroom (aye) but there's nothing he's written which is in any way exclusive - the vast majority of it is in the public domain or available from journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on.

JohnJamessite is significantly more accurate, immeasurably better-written, and also shorn of the enormous ego that bursts from every piece on Phil McJohn Doe's site.

[CropleyWasGod]

http://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__therulesofthescottishprofessionalfootball leagueasat19january2016_1461332495.pdf

SPFL rule E 20 mentions any Tax amount due to HMRC. I think it should include late VAT.


The Rangers probably claim it refers to Death Duties . :greengrin

Yep, that would include VAT. Cheers for that.

However, I'm not sure why they specify those dates.

[Ozymandias]

I only very rarely hear of anything that could count as being ITK, but I had a meeting this week with a chap who did have something of an inside steer. One of this lads business partners has been in contact with King about buying out the club, and does have a fair bit of cash behind him. The situation is that King is genuinely brassic as far as Rangers are concerned, lots of bills are not being paid and he is desperate for a way out as soon as possible. I have absolutely no reason to doubt this chaps bona fides as he doesn't have a horse in the race, so to speak.

Maybe doesn't add much to the thread other than a general feeling of warmth and imminence about an impending 2nd meltdown through Mordor way.

[Ozyhibby]

He's got years of form for fabricating stories and/or embellishing the truth, which is what he's doing here.

Yes, the the rangers are up **** creek financially again, but VAT is not the issue - it's a complete lack of working capital exacerbated by crumbling ibrox and their hilarious summer signings, having no access to credit, King's mystery millions, etc., etc.,

Phil whatever-his-name-is is a well-known (especially in 'Republican' circles) fantasist who would have us believe he's got a mole in the rangers boardroom (aye) but there's nothing he's written which is in any way exclusive - the vast majority of it is in the public domain or available from journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on.

JohnJamessite is significantly more accurate, immeasurably better-written, and also shorn of the enormous ego that bursts from every piece on Phil McJohn Doe's site.

Phil had the exclusive that the bailiffs were visiting the old Rangers and he had a photographer there to capture the moment.
Agree on the writing style though.


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[CropleyWasGod]

He's got years of form for fabricating stories and/or embellishing the truth, which is what he's doing here.

Yes, the the rangers are up **** creek financially again, but VAT is not the issue - it's a complete lack of working capital exacerbated by crumbling ibrox and their hilarious summer signings, having no access to credit, King's mystery millions, etc., etc.,

Phil whatever-his-name-is is a well-known (especially in 'Republican' circles) fantasist who would have us believe he's got a mole in the rangers boardroom (aye) but there's nothing he's written which is in any way exclusive - the vast majority of it is in the public domain or available from journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on.

JohnJamessite is significantly more accurate, immeasurably better-written, and also shorn of the enormous ego that bursts from every piece on Phil McJohn Doe's site.

Have to disagree on JJ's site. He has little clue on how businesses operate, on tax, accounts and other related stuff that he frequently posts on. His way of dealing with genuine enquiries is a bit Traynor-esque. I don't doubt that he has good information, but he should stick to that and not stray into areas where he hasn't a clue.... that risks him being shot down (which I do frequently :greengrin) and anything good that he does have gets lost in the flames.

[monarch]

He's got years of form for fabricating stories and/or embellishing the truth, which is what he's doing here.

Yes, the the rangers are up **** creek financially again, but VAT is not the issue - it's a complete lack of working capital exacerbated by crumbling ibrox and their hilarious summer signings, having no access to credit, King's mystery millions, etc., etc.,

Phil whatever-his-name-is is a well-known (especially in 'Republican' circles) fantasist who would have us believe he's got a mole in the rangers boardroom (aye) but there's nothing he's written which is in any way exclusive - the vast majority of it is in the public domain or available from journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on.

JohnJamessite is significantly more accurate, immeasurably better-written, and also shorn of the enormous ego that bursts from every piece on Phil McJohn Doe's site.

" Journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on" - possibly so but they choose not to inform us either through restrictive editorial policy or veiled threats. OK Phil has an agenda but at least he gets the info out to the public.
Ref his writing style, it's different but I can't see why it appears to annoy people. It's short and and gets to the point.
I tend to agree with CWG regarding Johnjames who does wander into areas beyond his expertise. Latterly he seems to be up his own a--e (Johnjames not CWG ! ) with his never ending self promotion relating to the football blogging awards.

[CropleyWasGod]

" Journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on" - possibly so but they choose not to inform us either through restrictive editorial policy or veiled threats. OK Phil has an agenda but at least he gets the info out to the public.
Ref his writing style, it's different but I can't see why it appears to annoy people. It's short and and gets to the point.
I tend to agree with CWG regarding Johnjames who does wander into areas beyond his expertise. Latterly he seems to be up his own a--e (Johnjames not CWG ! ) with his never ending self promotion relating to the football blogging awards.

Oh, trust me.... I am, often. It's warm and safe there, and the bad people can't find me.

Wibble.

[jacomo]

" Journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on" - possibly so but they choose not to inform us either through restrictive editorial policy or veiled threats. OK Phil has an agenda but at least he gets the info out to the public.
Ref his writing style, it's different but I can't see why it appears to annoy people. It's short and and gets to the point.
I tend to agree with CWG regarding Johnjames who does wander into areas beyond his expertise. Latterly he seems to be up his own a--e (Johnjames not CWG ! ) with his never ending self promotion relating to the football blogging awards.

Last time I looked at his site it was just a lengthy post about how brilliant his site was.

Not for me.

[Keith_M]

Gets fans hate Glasgow city council more than the SNP! Its a cafflick, jobs for the boys cabal don't you know.


Name the last non Roman Catholic Lord Provost of Glasgow.

[brog]

Name the last non Roman Catholic Lord Provost of Glasgow.

Why would you or anyone else care? I speak as an atheist.

[Paisley Hibby]

HMRC can't tell anybody about anyone's tax affairs, unless forced to do so by the Courts.

Sorry, you're right. A club has to "shop itself" if in arrears to HMRC. My misunderstanding of what I was told by a Director of a Championship club. I asked him today if he knew anything about the rumours circulating about The Rangers and he said the story about arrears on VAT can't be true for this reason. He also said that this rule is very strictly enforced.

[magpie1892]

Have to disagree on JJ's site. He has little clue on how businesses operate, on tax, accounts and other related stuff that he frequently posts on. His way of dealing with genuine enquiries is a bit Traynor-esque. I don't doubt that he has good information, but he should stick to that and not stray into areas where he hasn't a clue.... that risks him being shot down (which I do frequently :greengrin) and anything good that he does have gets lost in the flames.

Agree that his grasp of general business is weak, but he doesn't make stuff up willy-nilly.

Phil Doe's writing is absolutely appalling. I think I counted seven posts in a row in which used the phrase: 'for the avoidance of doubt' and he's still using that nugget day after day. His posts are also littered with basic grammatical, syntactic and factual errors. Very hard to take seriously so I read it with a very large pinch of salt betwixt thumb and forefinger.

Such a limited vocabulary, fantasy sources, and rampant plagiarism. He clearly revels - as we all do - in the upcoming demise of TRIFC but for him to self-describe as a journalist is fancilful at best - the paypal button on his site is as much evidence you need of that.

JJ is not perfect by any means, but he's a lot better, and better informed, than Phil Doe.

[CropleyWasGod]

Agree that his grasp of general business is weak, but he doesn't make stuff up willy-nilly.

Phil Doe's writing is absolutely appalling. I think I counted seven posts in a row in which used the phrase: 'for the avoidance of doubt' and he's still using that nugget day after day. His posts are also littered with basic grammatical, syntactic and facutal errors. Very hard to take seriously so I read it with a very large pinch of salt betwixt thumb and forefinger.

Such a limited vocabulary, fantasy sources, and rampant plagiarism. He clearly revels - as we all do - in the upcoming demise of TRIFC but for him to self-describe as a journalist is fancilful at best - the paypal button on his site is as much evidence you need of that.

JJ is not perfect by any means, but he's a lot better, and better informed, than Phil Doe.
Do you think that, in both cases ( and others....the Clumpany springs to mind) there's an element of "I got something right in the past....so I'm now seen as ITK. I am under pressure to come up with more stuff...."....hence some of the more fanciful blogs?

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[Bostonhibby]

Why would you or anyone else care? I speak as an atheist.
Agree.

It's about time we atheists got something.

I am prepared to be Lord provost of Glasgow. That'll sort out the dodgy stands that the now defunct Glasgow rangers dumped on the the rangers.

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[magpie1892]

" Journalists through in Glasgow who know what's going on" - possibly so but they choose not to inform us either through restrictive editorial policy or veiled threats.

Indeed. We've discussed this. Hence the beauty of t'internet. Completely taking over the narrative of football opinion in Scotland. The only people that read crap like the Daily Record, and believe it are people who don't have the mental acuity to challenge the drivel they publish, or those looking for Daily Mail/Daily Express-style comfirmation bias.

[magpie1892]

Do you think that, in both cases ( and others....the Clumpany springs to mind) there's an element of "I got something right in the past....so I'm now seen as ITK. I am under pressure to come up with more stuff...."....hence some of the more fanciful blogs?

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Certainly in the case of Phil Doe. Think that TC and JJS are far less guilty of this.

Some of Phil Doe's stuff is wired from the Moon.

[Jack Hackett]

Agree.

It's about time we atheists got something.

I am prepared to be Lord provost of Glasgow. That'll sort out the dodgy stands that the now defunct Glasgow rangers dumped on the the rangers.

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Be fair. They did get them at a knock down price....they've just failed to knock them down

[Bostonhibby]

Be fair. They did get them at a knock down price....they've just failed to knock them down
Wouldn't be allowed when I'm Lord provost[emoji6]

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[lapsedhibee]

facutal errors

They're the worst. :agree:

[The Falcon]

Do you think that, in both cases ( and others....the Clumpany springs to mind) there's an element of "I got something right in the past....so I'm now seen as ITK. I am under pressure to come up with more stuff...."....hence some of the more fanciful blogs?

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Changing direction slightly I see that the John James site suggests that Hector is going to be speaking to those that gained financially from the tax avoidance scheme that the JJ site says has been declared illegal by "The Inner House" apparently.

If thats the case who would liable for the unpaid taxes? The football club, the individual, their financial advisers or the holding company?

But the big question is..............are they still the same club? :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Changing direction slightly I see that the John James site suggests that Hector is going to be speaking to those that gained financially from the tax avoidance scheme that the JJ site says has been declared illegal by "The Inner House" apparently.

If thats the case who would liable for the unpaid taxes? The football club, the individual, their financial advisers or the holding company?

But the big question is..............are they still the same club? :greengrin
At the moment, the unpaid taxes are due by the company still in liquidation. There's hee haw chance of getting that, of course, it's about setting the precedent.

However, Hector might be looking at the recipients to see if they have gained from the arrangements....after taking account of the fact that Oldco is liable for most of their tax liability. They may have, they may not. We don't know that.

On your last question......What's the Hibs.net equivalent of taking the 5th Amendment?

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[Keith_M]

Why would you or anyone else care? I speak as an atheist.


I don't care at all, but did you at least read what I was replying to and understand the context?

[brog]

I don't care at all, but did you at least read what I was replying to and understand the context?

Yes of course i did but IMO by asking the question you only help to promulgate the myth that a person's religion is a matter of importance. As i said, only my opinion.

[Mr White]

Yes of course i did but IMO by asking the question you only help to promulgate the myth that a person's religion is a matter of importance. As i said, only my opinion.

Great use of a seldom seen word there Brog :thumbsup:

[ancient hibee]

At the moment, the unpaid taxes are due by the company still in liquidation. There's hee haw chance of getting that, of course, it's about setting the precedent.

However, Hector might be looking at the recipients to see if they have gained from the arrangements....after taking account of the fact that Oldco is liable for most of their tax liability. They may have, they may not. We don't know that.

On your last question......What's the Hibs.net equivalent of taking the 5th Amendment?

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You used to have to jump through hoops to avoid being taxed on Benefits in Kind.I would have thought that an employer being responsible for paying an employees tax liability would be the biggest possible Benefit.

[brog]

Great use of a seldom seen word there Brog :thumbsup:

I'm drinking wine in Portugal, it helps!!

[CropleyWasGod]

You used to have to jump through hoops to avoid being taxed on Benefits in Kind.I would have thought that an employer being responsible for paying an employees tax liability would be the biggest possible Benefit.

Don't think that's the issue, though.

The players were "paid" without deduction of PAYE and NI. HMRC claimed that the payments should have been taxed as wages. In cases like that, they assume the payments to be net, gross them up for PAYE and NIC, and hit the employer for everything. The employee is usually left alone.

However, HMRC are now looking at the employees to see if, even taking account of the PAYE and NIC that Oldco have been hit for, they have underpaid for the years in question.

They will also be looking to see if there was any collusion between the employer and employee to avoid tax.

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[Keith_M]

Yes of course i did but IMO by asking the question you only help to promulgate the myth that a person's religion is a matter of importance. As i said, only my opinion.


Unfortunately, it's not a myth, as it often seems to have an importance that it shouldn't.

It was a running joke among my friends (almost exclusively of the RC persuasion) in Glasgow and Lanarkshire about the religious preferences of those in charge in both Glasgow and North Lanarkshire Councils.

The sad fact is that there are many groups, whether based on religious or social background (e.g. Eton and Oxbridge ), that promote almost exclusively from their own 'kind'.


Anyway, I suppose this a subject for the Holy Ground...

[jgl07]

Name the last non Roman Catholic Lord Provost of Glasgow.

Sir Gordon Liddell (1969-1972)?

[brog]

Unfortunately, it's not a myth, as it often seems to have an importance that it shouldn't.

It was a running joke among my friends (almost exclusively of the RC persuasion) in Glasgow and Lanarkshire about the religious preferences of those in charge in both Glasgow and North Lanarkshire Councils.

The sad fact is that there are many groups, whether based on religious or social background (e.g. Eton and Oxbridge ), that promote almost exclusively from their own 'kind'.


Anyway, I suppose this a subject for the Holy Ground...

I think we're in violent agreement. :thumbsup: You're saying these bam pots, mostly in the West, think a person's religion is important. I agree that's no myth. IMO the myth is that one's religion does matter.

[greenginger]

https://johnjamessite.com/

JJ saying Duff and Phelps have been awarded £ 500,000 damages against Police Scotland and the Procurator Fiscal for the way they gathered evidence in the collapsed trial of the two Rangers administrators.

[ancient hibee]

https://johnjamessite.com/

JJ saying Duff and Phelps have been awarded £ 500,000 damages against Police Scotland and the Procurator Fiscal for the way they gathered evidence in the collapsed trial of the two Rangers administrators.

Most unlikely.

[CropleyWasGod]

Any ideas why the case would be heard in England?

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[HoboHarry]

Any ideas why the case would be heard in England?

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Weren't the original searches made in England which began the whole mess?

[CropleyWasGod]

Weren't the original searches made in England which began the whole mess?
Ahhh that would make sense. Reading the transcript properly....[emoji48] ....makes that clearer.

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[grunt]

Any ideas why the case would be heard in England?

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What are you getting at here?


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[ancient hibee]

Any ideas why the case would be heard in England?

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It's a hoax isn't it? Unless the High Court spells fourth differently to the rest of the country.Anyway it's not damages it's indemnifying costs.

[CropleyWasGod]

What are you getting at here?


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Curiosity.

I'm surprised that the case was heard, though, given (as JJ mentions) the potential implications for CW's trial.

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[grunt]

Curiosity.



Hmmm. If you're curious, maybe the rest of us should sit up and pay attention.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Hmmm. If you're curious, maybe the rest of us should sit up and pay attention.


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In matters of the law, I'm as scoobied as the scoobiest:))

Although.....am I reading this right? The case was heard in September? Why is it only coming to light now? Does that mean that our media aren't interested?
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[fat freddy]

Just heard on Radio Scotland that Joey Barton has changed his twitter profile and it now has no mention of Sevco on it, I checked and it's is now just a picture of him with a background wallpaper advertising an autobiography about a French speaking thug that stumbled into a library and read a book on philosophy and left an hour later convinced he was a philosopher.
In other news Johnjames is reporting that Barton is on 21k per week, his agent, Willie McKay was offered a settlement of full pay to the end of November if he was prepared to walk away now. The offer was refused. Probably just the first round of talks on a settlement, Sevco will have to do a deal, just wonder what it's going to take to get him to go quietly. £1million?

[Jack Hackett]

Just heard on Radio Scotland that Joey Barton has changed his twitter profile and it now has no mention of Sevco on it, I checked and it's is now just a picture of him with a background wallpaper advertising an autobiography about a French speaking thug that stumbled into a library and read a book on philosophy and left an hour later convinced he was a philosopher.
In other news Johnjames is reporting that Barton is on 21k per week, his agent, Willie McKay was offered a settlement of full pay to the end of November if he was prepared to walk away now. The offer was refused. Probably just the first round of talks on a settlement, Sevco will have to do a deal, just wonder what it's going to take to get him to go quietly. £1million?

:faf: :LOL:

6 weeks wages to walk away...that's up there with the ludicrous offer they made us for Scott Allan.

[magpie1892]

Just heard on Radio Scotland that Joey Barton has changed his twitter profile and it now has no mention of Sevco on it, I checked and it's is now just a picture of him with a background wallpaper advertising an autobiography about a French speaking thug that stumbled into a library and read a book on philosophy and left an hour later convinced he was a philosopher.
In other news Johnjames is reporting that Barton is on 21k per week, his agent, Willie McKay was offered a settlement of full pay to the end of November if he was prepared to walk away now. The offer was refused. Probably just the first round of talks on a settlement, Sevco will have to do a deal, just wonder what it's going to take to get him to go quietly. £1million?

The offer from the sevco was full pay until end 2016, not end November, and then cancellation of contract.

Barton's on more than £21k a week, I'm told. Plus, as previously mentioned, his suspension by the club does not occlude the fact that he is a member of the first team squad, fit and available for selection, so he gets, as per his contract, the same bonuses as those hun that take to the field.

Repeating myself ad nauseum, but there's not a chance he'll go anywhere for less than seven figures. I think a million up front would do it, but sevco haven't got the cash to pay him off in one go.

That sevco are even opening dialogue on a pay-off confirms the view that they know that they won't be able to dump him for the betting infraction.

His agent is the odious (quite literally - if you meet him, don't get too close) Willie MacKay so good luck with the silly offers, sevco.

Still plenty of enjoyment to be gleaned from this (fantastic) fiasco...

[Bostonhibby]

The offer from the sevco was full pay until end 2016, not end November, and then cancellation of contract.

Barton's on more than £21k a week, I'm told. Plus, as previously mentioned, his suspension by the club does not occlude the fact that he is a member of the first team squad, fit and available for selection, so he gets, as per his contract, the same bonuses as those hun that take to the field.

Repeating myself ad nauseum, but there's not a chance he'll go anywhere for less than seven figures. I think a million up front would do it, but sevco haven't got the cash to pay him off in one go.

That sevco are even opening dialogue on a pay-off cofirms the view that they know that they won't be able to dump him for the betting infraction.

His agent is the odious (quite literally - if you meet him, don't get too close) Willie MacKay so good luck with the silly offers, sevco.

Still plenty of enjoyment to be gleaned from this (fantastic) fiasco...
[emoji106] I love it when you go all ad nauseam about how Joey is going to blow a big hole in Sevco's budget [emoji1]

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[greenginger]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/7249753/You-abused-state-power-Cops-raid-for-Rangers-files-deemed-unlawful-by-court.html

Sun running the story this morning.

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/7249753/You-abused-state-power-Cops-raid-for-Rangers-files-deemed-unlawful-by-court.html

Sun running the story this morning.

That ties in with JJ's claim that he only learned of it yesterday.

[CyberSauzee]

Interesting if true.

https://johnjamessite.com/2016/10/20/the-reservoir-dogs-of-scottish-water/

A few pulling the plug puns to follow...

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting if true.

https://johnjamessite.com/2016/10/20/the-reservoir-dogs-of-scottish-water/

A few pulling the plug puns to follow...
Brilliant story:)

No idea if it's true, but.... £95k per month for water? I don't swim in those pools... can anyone shed any sparkle on whether that's likely to be pure....or pure piss?

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[Keith_M]

Interesting if true.

https://johnjamessite.com/2016/10/20/the-reservoir-dogs-of-scottish-water/

A few pulling the plug puns to follow...


Hmmm, 95k per month water bills? Doesn't sound very likely

[WhileTheChief..]

^^ No idea how accuarate these figures are but when I ran a business the water rates that I paid were nothing to do with how much water we used, a lot of businesses wouldn't even have a water meter.

It was do with the size of the the footprint of the business. I remember moaning like hell to SW that I was paying a bill for basically collecting extra rain water and they said yup, that's exactly it!

Ibrox and surrounding car park etc is a pretty big area :wink:

That was about 12 years ago mind so things could have changed.

[WoreTheGreen]

Hmmm, 95k per month water bills? Doesn't sound very likely

Aye but holy water is a good bit dearer

[bingo70]

^^ No idea how accuarate these figures are but when I ran a business the water rates that I paid were nothing to do with how much water we used, a lot of businesses wouldn't even have a water meter.

It was do with the size of the the footprint of the business. I remember moaning like hell to SW that I was paying a bill for basically collecting extra rain water and they said yup, that's exactly it!

Ibrox and surrounding car park etc is a pretty big area :wink:

That was about 12 years ago mind so things could have changed.

Water charges are based on the rateable value of a property if there's no meter there. Drainage as a whole is also charged this way, it's pretty simplistic but I suppose it's similar to council tax bandings and how domestic water is billed via council tax charges.

I'd doubt that the story is true as Scottish Water don't bill for business water, it could be business stream but I think if there was anything in the story they'd have got that part right and knowing how the credit control function works there I am beyond certain it wouldn't have got to that stage.

[hibee_nation]

Load of pish business stream meter readers would check at least quarterly. If there was a problem it would be flagged up immediately. All businesses have meters fitted nowadays

[Billy Whizz]

Water charges are based on the rateable value of a property if there's no meter there. Drainage as a whole is also charged this way, it's pretty simplistic but I suppose it's similar to council tax bandings and how domestic water is billed via council tax charges.

I'd doubt that the story is true as Scottish Water don't bill for business water, it could be business stream but I think if there was anything in the story they'd have got that part right and knowing how the credit control function works there I am beyond certain it wouldn't have got to that stage.

I used to have a business in a shopping centre. We paid the centre for our water, and Business Stream monthly DD, for pipes etc into the centre. If you didn't pay DD, they would get credit companies to chase you up, but they couldn't cut you off. Wonder if TRFC haven't paid for a bit

[Moulin Yarns]

A saint Johnstone fan told me th water bill story today.

[Jack]

All that water but no soap!

[greenginger]

Never rains but it pours for the poor Sevconians .......

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/10/21/report-rangers-fear-the-worst-as-niko-kranjcar-suffers-potential/

[Keith_M]

^^ No idea how accuarate these figures are but when I ran a business the water rates that I paid were nothing to do with how much water we used, a lot of businesses wouldn't even have a water meter.

It was do with the size of the the footprint of the business. I remember moaning like hell to SW that I was paying a bill for basically collecting extra rain water and they said yup, that's exactly it!

Ibrox and surrounding car park etc is a pretty big area :wink:

That was about 12 years ago mind so things could have changed.


It appears there are two options here;

1) T'Rangers DO have a meter, which they bypassed by stealing from a Church... but as they run a football club and not a chain of swimming pools then the figure of 95k is surely an exaggeration, bringing into doubt JJ's story.

2) T'Rangers bill is calculated in the manner you mentioned, meaning JJ's meter story is completely made up.





p.s. No Apropos were harmed or misused in any way in coming to my conclusions.

p.p.s What actually is the plural of Apropos?

[Bostonhibby]

Never rains but it pours for the poor Sevconians .......

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/10/21/report-rangers-fear-the-worst-as-niko-kranjcar-suffers-potential/
Probably angling for a warm winter away from Glasgow whilst collecting the cash Joey style.

The club that keeps on giving.

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[CentreLine]

Never rains but it pours for the poor Sevconians .......

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/10/21/report-rangers-fear-the-worst-as-niko-kranjcar-suffers-potential/

Bit of a convenient announcement just before the bigot fest T weekend. I'd expect he'll feature on Sunday. Won't be watching but will be interested.

[The Green Goblin]

Hmmm, 95k per month water bills? Doesn't sound very likely

They have to wash the stadium after 30000 soap dodgers gave been piling about in it two or three times a month, so...

[CapitalGreen]

Bit of a convenient announcement just before the bigot fest T weekend. I'd expect he'll feature on Sunday. Won't be watching but will be interested.

He got hooked at half time last time as he was so far off the pace and was going to get himself sent off. Celtic fans will be praying he features.

[snedzuk]

Hmmm, 95k per month water bills? Doesn't sound very likely

I cant be arsed trying to have a stab at this, but the charges in this seem pretty steep.

https://www.business-stream.co.uk/sites/default/files/bs2013/Charging_statement_16-17.pdf

[Highland_Hibee]

See Joey is being touted with a return to Burnley. Part of me wants to see him go to lift the lid on his silence but I also wanna see him continue to milk a wage from that lot.


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[Ozyhibby]

See Joey is being touted with a return to Burnley. Part of me wants to see him go to lift the lid on his silence but I also wanna see him continue to milk a wage from that lot.


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Def want to see him keep on claiming the wages. There is nothing he could say that would make me think worse of them.


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[Keith_M]

Souness is in today's papers saying that it's about time King put his money where his mouth is and put in the fabled 'investment' to try to catch up with Celtc.


“They need to get better players and that will take money. The owner [King] needs to find some money for the manager because he's operating with one hand tied behind his back at the moment."

"You can't come out and say you're going to spend this and spend that if you haven't got it. If you end up not spending it, that is a mistake because it raised the expectations of the support."

The Herald (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/14820902.Graeme_Souness_calls_on_Dave_King_to_inve st_in_Rangers_with_Celtic__quot_five_years_ahead_q uot_/)

[chinaman]

Souness is in today's papers saying that it's about time King put his money where his mouth is and put in the fabled 'investment' to try to catch up with Celtc.


“They need to get better players and that will take money. The owner [King] needs to find some money for the manager because he's operating with one hand tied behind his back at the moment."

"You can't come out and say you're going to spend this and spend that if you haven't got it. If you end up not spending it, that is a mistake because it raised the expectations of the support."

The Herald (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/14820902.Graeme_Souness_calls_on_Dave_King_to_inve st_in_Rangers_with_Celtic__quot_five_years_ahead_q uot_/)
Shameless **** that is souness, joined at the hip with fat tory tax dodger murray and slags off the creepy slime ball king.souness the man who sold his soul to the fxxxxx sunl
Souness shat on the huns then shat on the people of Liverpool.
Souness the"voice of reason" HILARIOUS

[Ozyhibby]

Souness is in today's papers saying that it's about time King put his money where his mouth is and put in the fabled 'investment' to try to catch up with Celtc.


“They need to get better players and that will take money. The owner [King] needs to find some money for the manager because he's operating with one hand tied behind his back at the moment."

"You can't come out and say you're going to spend this and spend that if you haven't got it. If you end up not spending it, that is a mistake because it raised the expectations of the support."

The Herald (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/14820902.Graeme_Souness_calls_on_Dave_King_to_inve st_in_Rangers_with_Celtic__quot_five_years_ahead_q uot_/)

Sevco are losing about £8m a year and already had debts of £18m at the last accounts.
Without buying a single extra player, King will need to find an extra £8m before the end of the season.


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[greenginger]

Shameless **** that is souness, joined at the hip with fat tory tax dodger murray and slags off the creepy slime ball king.souness the man who sold his soul to the fxxxxx sunl
Souness shat on the huns then shat on the people of Liverpool.
Souness the"voice of reason" HILARIOUS



Where do you you get Tory from ?

Murray was knighted by the labour government in 2007 and was an Alex Salmond supporter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12591383

[WhileTheChief..]

How the hell are they managing to lose £8m pa with more than 40k ST holders??

Even with the wages they're paying to Barton etc they shouldn't be losing anywhere near that amount.

Utterly bizarre setup through Ibrox way and clearly no lessons have been learnt.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sevco are losing about £8m a year and already had debts of £18m at the last accounts.
Without buying a single extra player, King will need to find an extra £8m before the end of the season.


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Where are you getting those figures from?

(one doesn't necessarily follow from the other....)

[jacomo]

Where do you you get Tory from ?

Murray was knighted by the labour government in 2007 and was an Alex Salmond supporter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12591383

Are you joking?

Murray was a poster boy for the Thatcherite generation. He's a Tory through and through.

[greenginger]

Are you joking?

Murray was a poster boy for the Thatcherite generation. He's a Tory through and through.


Murray would cosy up to anybody he could use.

Hence his support for Alex Salmond.

[Ozyhibby]

Where are you getting those figures from?

(one doesn't necessarily follow from the other....)

Their turnover was just under £16m last year and their operating expenses just over £24m.
It's true that next years accounts could show a much improved situation but that is a big shortfall to make up?


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[jacomo]

Murray would cosy up to anybody he could use.

Hence his support for Alex Salmond.

That's also true.

And a typical Tory trait :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Their turnover was just under £16m last year and their operating expenses just over £24m.
It's true that next years accounts could show a much improved situation but that is a big shortfall to make up?


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So they don't "need to find £8m before the end of the season" which was my main question. I thought that maybe you'd seen that posted somewhere. :greengrin

Their 2016 accounts aren't out yet, and I have no idea what they'll say. However, this season's should be better, what with better TV money and their European jaunt......

Oh, wait.....

[Bostonhibby]

So they don't "need to find £8m before the end of the season" which was my main question. I thought that maybe you'd seen that posted somewhere. :greengrin

Their 2016 accounts aren't out yet, and I have no idea what they'll say. However, this season's should be better, what with better TV money and their European jaunt......

Oh, wait.....

They must have got a couple of quid for their first Scottish Cup final appearance? Then there's the DVD sales.

I reckon King was seriously hoping to recover some of the millions he lost when he was involved earlier with the now defunct Glasgow rangers by trousering some of the money from a cup win, attendant sales and a european jaunt - and he is now running out of options unless he can get some egotistical maniac with deep pockets to buy him out or he can somehow persuade clever people to invest in his blighted money pit.

[Billy Whizz]

So they don't "need to find £8m before the end of the season" which was my main question. I thought that maybe you'd seen that posted somewhere. :greengrin

Their 2016 accounts aren't out yet, and I have no idea what they'll say. However, this season's should be better, what with better TV money and their European jaunt......

Oh, wait.....

How are they funding the £8 million gap

[CropleyWasGod]

How are they funding the £8 million gap

Not sure what you mean by the £8m gap.

They made a loss in the year to June 15 of £7m. However, they still had net assets of £18m.

In December (?) last year, they got some external funding, which was designed to get them through until the end of last season.... which it did. At that point, ST's kicked in... which will have kept the lights on for a while.

Without the 2016 accounts, there's no way to assess what their current situation is. By previous years' experience, we might see them in January...by which time they'll be out of date :cb

[Ringothedog]

Hmmm, 95k per month water bills? Doesn't sound very likely

2-3 times a month with a crowd the size of a small town using their facilities, ensuring their pitch is in top class condition. They will use a shed load of water....whether its £95k worth is another matter

[Billy Whizz]

Not sure what you mean by the £8m gap.

They made a loss in the year to June 15 of £7m. However, they still had net assets of £18m.

In December (?) last year, they got some external funding, which was designed to get them through until the end of last season.... which it did. At that point, ST's kicked in... which will have kept the lights on for a while.

Without the 2016 accounts, there's no way to assess what their current situation is. By previous years' experience, we might see them in January...by which time they'll be out of date :cb

I'm not sure of their cash in hand, what I meant in simple business terms, if you're spending £8 million more than you bring in....

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not sure of their cash in hand, what I meant in simple business terms, if you're spending £8 million more than you bring in....

Are they, though?

That's my point.... we don't know that. We know they needed cash half-way through last season, and they got it.

And that's about as much as we know......

[southsider]

2-3 times a month with a crowd the size of a small town using their facilities, ensuring their pitch is in top class condition. They will use a shed load of water....whether its £95k worth is another matter
The water used is quite cheep but the standing charges for useage and waste can be very expensive.

[chinaman]

Where do you you get Tory from ?

Murray was knighted by the labour government in 2007 and was an Alex Salmond supporter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12591383
Murray wanted independence aye ?

[Seveno]

They should try coming up with some clever tax dodging scheme. That would allow them to sign players way out with their budget and so compete with Celtic.

I am surprised that no-one has thought of that idea yet. Seems a sure fire winner to me.

:cb

[Sergio sledge]

The water used is quite cheep but the standing charges for useage and waste can be very expensive.

There's no chance they are using £95K a month of water. Unless they have a ridiculously large water meter and leave the taps running constantly. I think Hampden Park's water bill annually was somewhere in the region of £115k http://www.edie.net/news/4/Hampden-Park-football-stadium-Scotland-tracks-water-use/ before they managed to make £40k a year savings through making the urinals flush less often when there were only 200 people there as opposed to 50k people there.

[Bostonhibby]

There's no chance they are using £95K a month of water. Unless they have a ridiculously large water meter and leave the taps running constantly. I think Hampden Park's water bill annually was somewhere in the region of £115k http://www.edie.net/news/4/Hampden-Park-football-stadium-Scotland-tracks-water-use/ before they managed to make £40k a year savings through making the urinals flush less often when there were only 200 people there as opposed to 50k people there.

:agree:

They're not doing baptisms on the side are they?:confused:

[Jack Hackett]

:agree:

They're not doing baptisms on the side are they?:confused:

Re-enactments of the Battle of the Boyne...up to their knees in stolen water.

[ancient hibee]

There's no chance they are using £95K a month of water. Unless they have a ridiculously large water meter and leave the taps running constantly. I think Hampden Park's water bill annually was somewhere in the region of £115k http://www.edie.net/news/4/Hampden-Park-football-stadium-Scotland-tracks-water-use/ before they managed to make £40k a year savings through making the urinals flush less often when there were only 200 people there as opposed to 50k people there.

If there is an outstanding water bill it presumably covers the training complex as well.

[Ozyhibby]

I haven't seen a single shred of evidence to suggest there is any truth in this water story and the figures banded about by John James were ridiculous. They need external finance or massive cost cutting. If that doesn't happen then there will be plenty to laugh about without made up water stories.


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[Bostonhibby]

Re-enactments of the Battle of the Boyne...up to their knees in stolen water.
Ah yes, the battling boings. We hear so much of them, are they an important part of Scottish history?



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[Keith_M]

The water used is quite cheep but the standing charges for useage and waste can be very expensive.


True, but the figure originates from John James' 'story' that they diddled Scottish Water by diverting it from a local church.

The claim he's making is that they avoided the 95k per month charges they would have received for metered usage by 'doing a Winston'* on their water meter... nothing to do with standing charges, etc.








* Still Game fans will know what that means :wink:

[GreenLake]

Ah yes, the battling boings. We hear so much of them, are they an important part of Scottish history?



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It's probably more about the battle for the bong these days.

[southern hibby]

It's probably more about the battle for the bong these days.

If they do get the water turned off it will become Battle of the Pong.

GGTTH

[Bostonhibby]

If they do get the water turned off it will become Battle of the Pong.

GGTTH

They'll be up to their knees in turgid stuff

[Jack Hackett]

Ah yes, the battling boings. We hear so much of them, are they an important part of Scottish history?



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Since 1690, I believe. I'm wondering if the celebrated Battle of Hampden Park...where 200 fearless loyalist warriors defended their defeated champions against thousands of rampaging 'feenyin bassas'...will be remembered with marches by eejits with flutes and drums 32 6 years from now?

[Jack]

If they have been siphoning water from elsewhere in the past maybe the £95k is partly made up of repayments iro charges avoided.

[fat freddy]

[QUOTE=Jack Hackett;4844586]Since 1690, I believe. I'm wondering if the celebrated Battle of Hampden Park...where 200 fearless loyalist warriors defended their defeated champions against thousands of rampaging 'feenyin bassas'...will be remembered with marches by eejits with flutes and drums 32 6 years from now?[/QUOTE

It was 300 fearless warriors, there are rumours coming out of Hollywood that a potential blockbuster is to be produced re telling the epic tale of those 300 martyrs who sacrificed their freedom to protect Rapeepil and Raplayers from the murderous mutants of The East. Gerard Butler is being lined up to play the part of the brave loyalist defender who used the Fenian child as a shield to protect him from the crazed green hordes of Dunedin as they rampaged upon the western fields of Mount Florida. Michael Fassbender has refused to confirm if he will be playing the role of the evil Lord of Exhuberance, King Roderick of Hibernia but Hollywood insiders insist the deal is close to being delivered...

[Bostonhibby]

[QUOTE=Jack Hackett;4844586]Since 1690, I believe. I'm wondering if the celebrated Battle of Hampden Park...where 200 fearless loyalist warriors defended their defeated champions against thousands of rampaging 'feenyin bassas'...will be remembered with marches by eejits with flutes and drums 32 6 years from now?[/QUOTE

It was 300 fearless warriors, there are rumours coming out of Hollywood that a potential blockbuster is to be produced re telling the epic tale of those 300 martyrs who sacrificed their freedom to protect Rapeepil and Raplayers from the murderous mutants of The East. Gerard Butler is being lined up to play the part of the brave loyalist defender who used the Fenian child as a shield to protect him from the crazed green hordes of Dunedin as they rampaged upon the western fields of Mount Florida. Michael Fassbender has refused to confirm if he will be playing the role of the evil Lord of Exhuberance, King Roderick of Hibernia but Hollywood insiders insist the deal is close to being delivered...
[emoji1] [emoji1]

Hearing Jamesy Cottar will get the Lee Wallace role.

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[BH Hibs]

[QUOTE=Jack Hackett;4844586]Since 1690, I believe. I'm wondering if the celebrated Battle of Hampden Park...where 200 fearless loyalist warriors defended their defeated champions against thousands of rampaging 'feenyin bassas'...will be remembered with marches by eejits with flutes and drums 32 6 years from now?[/QUOTE

It was 300 fearless warriors, there are rumours coming out of Hollywood that a potential blockbuster is to be produced re telling the epic tale of those 300 martyrs who sacrificed their freedom to protect Rapeepil and Raplayers from the murderous mutants of The East. Gerard Butler is being lined up to play the part of the brave loyalist defender who used the Fenian child as a shield to protect him from the crazed green hordes of Dunedin as they rampaged upon the western fields of Mount Florida. Michael Fassbender has refused to confirm if he will be playing the role of the evil Lord of Exhuberance, King Roderick of Hibernia but Hollywood insiders insist the deal is close to being delivered...

Can't see Mr Butler being a brave loyalist anything tbh.

[jacomo]

[QUOTE=fat freddy;4844615]

Can't see Mr Butler being a brave loyalist anything tbh.

Thought the same about Joey Barton

[magpie1892]

I reckon King was seriously hoping to recover some of the millions he lost when he was involved earlier with the now defunct Glasgow rangers by trousering some of the money from a cup win, attendant sales and a european jaunt - and he is now running out of options unless he can get some egotistical maniac with deep pockets to buy him out or he can somehow persuade clever people to invest in his blighted money pit.

No need to 'reckon' - it's a fact. Obviously not going to happen as no-one with even a scintilla of intelligence would put any cash into that money pit. King wants out before the sevconians really turn up the heat on the promised 'over investment' which of course is pure fantasy.

[jacomo]

No need to 'reckon' - it's a fact. Obviously not going to happen as no-one with even a scintilla of intelligence would put any cash into that money pit. King wants out before the sevconians really turn up the heat on the promised 'over investment' which of course is pure fantasy.

My hope is they hit the rocks again and King is at the helm when it happens.

That club's behaviour towards Hibs after the cup final was shocking - trying to grass us up and getting all their pals to slag us off.

Really pathetic.

[Keith_M]

I'd love RaPeepul to go down the sewer once and for all but I think us winning the Cup will be our only hoped for miracle for the foreseeable.

[Dashing Bob S]

No need to 'reckon' - it's a fact. Obviously not going to happen as no-one with even a scintilla of intelligence would put any cash into that money pit. King wants out before the sevconians really turn up the heat on the promised 'over investment' which of course is pure fantasy.

King is the loudmouthed sleaze bag who shouts 'drinks for everyone' in the Star Wars bar, then locks himself in the toilet, hoping to squeeze his fat bum out the window before the mutants realize he isn't around.

[Keith_M]

King is the loudmouthed sleaze bag who shouts 'drinks for everyone' in the Star Wars bar, then locks himself in the toilet, hoping to squeeze his fat bum out the window before the mutants realize he isn't around.


Where's Obi-Wan Kenobi when you need him....

[GlesgaeHibby]

Are they, though?

That's my point.... we don't know that. We know they needed cash half-way through last season, and they got it.

And that's about as much as we know......


Not sure what you mean by the £8m gap.

They made a loss in the year to June 15 of £7m. However, they still had net assets of £18m.

In December (?) last year, they got some external funding, which was designed to get them through until the end of last season.... which it did. At that point, ST's kicked in... which will have kept the lights on for a while.

Without the 2016 accounts, there's no way to assess what their current situation is. By previous years' experience, we might see them in January...by which time they'll be out of date :cb

If they needed an £8m injection of cash to stay afloat last year, goodness knows how much they'll need this year now that they're paying around £20k/week each for Barton, Kranjcar, Hill, Senderos. Add in the big pay rises from £5k/week to £14k/week for Waghorn and Tav they'll be shelling out an additional weekly wage of around £100k just for those 6 players. Thats over £5m per year. The team finishing second in the Premiership last year got just over £2m in prize money. Slightly higher gates/ticket prices etc. may help but I reckon their deficit is looking like it could be even larger this season. Hope it all goes pear shaped for them very soon.

[Joe6-2]

They'll be up to their knees in turgid stuff

They are already!!

[Stax]

Where's Obi-Wan Kenobi when you need him....
At least we know where Jabba the hutt is...

[Kaiser1962]

Not sure what you mean by the £8m gap.

They made a loss in the year to June 15 of £7m. However, they still had net assets of £18m.

In December (?) last year, they got some external funding, which was designed to get them through until the end of last season.... which it did. At that point, ST's kicked in... which will have kept the lights on for a while.

Without the 2016 accounts, there's no way to assess what their current situation is. By previous years' experience, we might see them in January...by which time they'll be out of date :cb


You are very obviously using a different valuer to the one used by Duffer and Feckwit during the administration process. :devil:

[Deansy]

I'd love RaPeepul to go down the sewer once and for all but I think us winning the Cup will be our only hoped for miracle for the foreseeable.

Surely-to-fxxx if they DID go bust again, Regan/Doncaster & Co would be really hard-pressed (if not impossible !!) to save them again ??


If they needed an £8m injection of cash to stay afloat last year, goodness knows how much they'll need this year now that they're paying around £20k/week each for Barton, Kranjcar, Hill, Senderos. Add in the big pay rises from £5k/week to £14k/week for Waghorn and Tav they'll be shelling out an additional weekly wage of around £100k just for those 6 players. Thats over £5m per year. The team finishing second in the Premiership last year got just over £2m in prize money. Slightly higher gates/ticket prices etc. may help but I reckon their deficit is looking like it could be even larger this season. Hope it all goes pear shaped for them very soon.

These figures are bad but wait until the guaranteed costs of ...... (tee-hee) .... the no-doubt mega-bonuses that'll be paid out for ........ (s******) the expected and presumed WINNING of the SPL along with ............. (Oh Jezuz, ma sides !!) the SCOTTISH CUP are added-on !!??

[Highland_Hibee]

Barton suspended indefinitely. "unmitigated shambles...poor on the pitch and disrespectful off it". Christ that could apply to the majority of that shameful mob.


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[blaikie]

Account are out .....

Pre tax profit way down!

[CropleyWasGod]

Account are out .....

Pre tax profit way down!
Not the way I read it, albeit very quickly.

Losses are down from 7m to 3m.

The paragraph on Going Concern is interesting. Maybe someone can cut and paste it.

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[Bostonhibby]

Account are out .....

Pre tax profit way down!
How much has gone the over investors way?[emoji6]

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[Ozyhibby]

Not the way I read it, albeit very quickly.

Losses are down from 7m to 3m.

The paragraph on Going Concern is interesting. Maybe someone can cut and paste it.

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http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/92a5c4f867e10067d07e1ae4f7e2d02a.jpg



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[Ozyhibby]

Looks like they got a loan in October of about £3m but need another in March?


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[Billy Whizz]

Not the way I read it, albeit very quickly.

Losses are down from 7m to 3m.

The paragraph on Going Concern is interesting. Maybe someone can cut and paste it.

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GOING CONCERN
The Board of Directors (“the Board”) are required to prepare the statutory nancial statements on the going concern basis unless it is inappropriate to presume that the Group and Parent Company will continue in business. In satisfaction of this responsibility the Board have considered the Group’s ability to meet its liabilities as they fall due.
The Group’s business activities, together with the factors likely to a ect its future development and performance are set out in the Strategic Report. The Strategic Report also describes how the Group manages its capital, its liquidity risk and its exposure to credit risk.
The Group meets its day to day working capital requirements through existing cash facilities, investor loans and nance leases. Management information tools including budgets and cash ow forecasts are used to monitor and manage current and future liquidity. The Board acknowledges that there is a level of uncertainty in the general economic environment which may impact the trading position of its customers and suppliers.
The Board has undertaken a recent and thorough review of the Group’s forecasts and the associated risks. These forecasts extend for a period beyond one year from the date of approval of these nancial statements. The extent of this review re ected the current economic environment, the Club’s current and projected trading and position in Scottish football.
Key assumptions in respect of the Group’s forecasts are discussed within note 1 to the nancial statements.

GOING CONCERN (CONTINUED)
At the time of preparation, the forecast identi ed that the Group would require up to £4.0m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season 2016/2017 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due. Following the progression of the team to the Semi Finals of the Scottish League Cup, the funding requirement is now anticipated to be £3.75m. The rst tranche of funding amounting to £2.9m has been received from investors in October 2016, with further funds forecast to be required in March 2017.
Further funding may be required during the 2017/18 season, the quantum of which is dependent on future football performance and European football participation.
The Board of Directors has received undertakings from certain investors that they will provide nancial support to the Group and have satis ed themselves as to the validity of these undertakings and that the individuals have the means and authority to provide such funding as and when it is required. The Board acknowledge that had these assurances not been secured then a material uncertainty would exist which may cast doubt over the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern and therefore its ability to realise its assets and discharge its liabilities in the normal course of business. With the appropriate assurances obtained and the continued support of the investors, the Board believe that any such uncertainty has been removed.
The nancial support to be made available more than covers the projected shortfall for this season and beyond. The Board further understands that additional facilities can be made available as and when required for investment in the team.
As such, after making the enquiries referred to above, the Board of Directors believe that there is a reasonable expectation that the Group will at all times have adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future. Accordingly they continue to adopt the going concern basis in preparing this report and the statutory nancial statements.

[northstandhibby]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/92a5c4f867e10067d07e1ae4f7e2d02a.jpg



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The Going Concerns are making it public knowledge the finances at the rangers are dependent on securing outside money. Obviously it doesn't state just how much is needed but it must be a significant amount to highlight it in such a dramatic set of wording.

update - (Billy Whizz has just posted the rest of the Going Concerns which actually does state how much is required)

Well this definitely puts to bed Kings statement about pumping his kids inheritance into them.

(Still puts to bed Kings investing his kids inheritance)

GGTTH

[Keith_M]

Wow, they're already looking for emergency funding to see out the season..... again.

[blaikie]

Not the way I read it, albeit very quickly.

Losses are down from 7m to 3m.

The paragraph on Going Concern is interesting. Maybe someone can cut and paste it.

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I had a quick scan as well -

Earnings before Interest Tax and Depreciation (EBITDA) (£0.1m) (2015 – (£6.9m))

Full 60 pages of there account on there website ...... Interesting to see they spent 3m+ on 11 player registrations over the year.

[Bostonhibby]

Wow, they're already looking for emergency funding to see out the season..... again.
The "over investment" must be about to start then!

King took over the wrong club. He'd already be winning if he'd "saved" the yams

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[Mr White]

Quantum. It's been a while since that word was seen on this thread.

[northstandhibby]

The reference to the 'Group' requiring money and the 'Group' being vulnerable as a going concern without additional monies is a bit of a puzzler.

Some time ago there were statements released informing any shortfalls by the rangers football club would be absorbed overall by 'the Group'.

Anybody have any information how it is now the 'Group' which is at risk without additional monies being raised.

Sorry if this has been answered before or is considered semantic but I am slightly puzzled.

GGTTH

[magpie1892]

The "over investment" must be about to start then!

King took over the wrong club. He'd already be winning if he'd "saved" the yams.

I don't see King staying at sevco much longer. He's £20m in the hole from his previous dealings with the club when Murray was owner. He needs this back as he doesn't actually have any money and this is the only reason he's at the club. Sadly for King, the club does not have any money either and, in fact, desperately needs the mythical £30 million 'over investment' King promised when he took over. King's recently been told that if he wants to fly first class from ZA to see the huns 'going for 55' then he has to pay for these £12,000 tickets himself - hence not at Hampden last Sunday.

So what's the point in King hanging around? He's just going to get more grief as the penny finally drops with the ******ed hun hordes that King is potless. Further, despite the hun trumpeting that they'd 'got rid' of Ashley, he still has Rangers Retail Limited sewn up for the next six years, and Ibrox requires urgent and expensive maintenance - so it's actually even worse than King thought. Tragic stuff.

[Dashing Bob S]

I don't see King staying at sevco much longer. He's £20m in the hole from his previous dealings with the club when Murray was owner. He needs this back as he doesn't actually have any money and this is the only reason he's at the club. Sadly for King, the club does not have any money either and, in fact, desperately needs the mythical £30 million 'over investment' King promised when he took over. King's recently been told that if he wants to fly first class from ZA to see the huns 'going for 55' then he has to pay for these £12,000 tickets himself - hence not at Hampden last Sunday.

So what's the point in King hanging around? He's just going to get more grief as the penny finally drops with the ******ed hun hordes that King is potless. Further, despite the hun trumpeting that they'd 'got rid' of Ashley, he still has Rangers Retail Limited sewn up for the next six years, and Ibrox requires urgent and expensive maintenance - so it's actually even worse than King thought. Tragic stuff.

If anybody on this board walked in there tomorrow and said we'd take everything, all the debts, off TLK's hands for a quid, they'd own that mess. All they'd need to do is bull**** the Record about off-the-charts wealth and overinvestment.

[Bostonhibby]

I don't see King staying at sevco much longer. He's £20m in the hole from his previous dealings with the club when Murray was owner. He needs this back as he doesn't actually have any money and this is the only reason he's at the club. Sadly for King, the club does not have any money either and, in fact, desperately needs the mythical £30 million 'over investment' King promised when he took over. King's recently been told that if he wants to fly first class from ZA to see the huns 'going for 55' then he has to pay for these £12,000 tickets himself - hence not at Hampden last Sunday.

So what's the point in King hanging around? He's just going to get more grief as the penny finally drops with the ******ed hun hordes that King is potless. Further, despite the hun trumpeting that they'd 'got rid' of Ashley, he still has Rangers Retail Limited sewn up for the next six years, and Ibrox requires urgent and expensive maintenance - so it's actually even worse than King thought. Tragic stuff.

Yep, been pointing that way for a while, unless there's a rich mug out there who sees their "traditions" as worth saving. Wouldn't rule it out but the way they are pointing just really doesn't look like what King was describing at the outset, good entertainment though.

[Marco G]

Yep, been pointing that way for a while, unless there's a rich mug out there who sees their "traditions" as worth saving. Wouldn't rule it out but the way they are pointing just really doesn't look like what King was describing at the outset, good entertainment though.
"Rich" and "Mug" don't often go together. There is so much needing funded at so many levels that I think its down to the "powers that be" to sort it out, respectfully.

[Skol]

King has been amazingly quiet of late

[magpie1892]

If anybody on this board walked in there tomorrow and said we'd take everything, all the debts, off TLK's hands for a quid, they'd own that mess. All they'd need to do is bull**** the Record about off-the-charts wealth and overinvestment.

Murray did well to get a quid for deadco. I know I am not alone in finding it a source of genuine delight watching the most odious club in world football stumble from one self-inflicted crisis to the next. The summer signings were a masterstroke - I think two of the 11 players they signed are getting a regular game?


Yep, been pointing that way for a while, unless there's a rich mug out there who sees their "traditions" as worth saving. Wouldn't rule it out but the way they are pointing just really doesn't look like what King was describing at the outset, good entertainment though.

I wouldn't rule it out but I think it's highly unlikely. If such a person existed, would we would not seen them by now? In time to prevent the first liquidation? Sevco need someone - like, yesterday - who values the club's nauseating traditions to such an extent that they are prepared to come in and immediately write off £50m of their own money just to stabilise the club's premises and playing squad. There's a reason most rich people stay rich.

The arithmetic increasingly points towards another liquidation event - for my money that's far more likely than some hun 'sugar daddy' making an unheralded appearance. I'm not sure if I want to watch the hun scratch around in midtable for the forseeable future or for them to go bust again. If the latter happened, it's hard to see how they would get parachuted straight back into the senior league like last time - nor how they could 'transfer' their tainted honours to another new club yet again.

As you observe, it is good entertainment, and we're only just getting started.

[The Green Goblin]

How much did they get from winning the Scottish Cup.... ahhh. Hahahahahahaha

[northstandhibby]

Murray did well to get a quid for deadco. I know I am not alone in finding it a source of genuine delight watching the most odious club in world football stumble from one self-inflicted crisis to the next. The summer signings were a masterstroke - I think two of the 11 players they signed are getting a regular game?



I wouldn't rule it out but I think it's highly unlikely. If such a person existed, would we would not seen them by now? In time to prevent the first liquidation? Sevco need someone - like, yesterday - who values the club's nauseating traditions to such an extent that they are prepared to come in and immediately write off £50m of their own money just to stabilise the club's premises and playing squad. There's a reason most rich people stay rich.

The arithmetic increasingly points towards another liquidation event - for my money that's far more likely than some hun 'sugar daddy' making an unheralded appearance. I'm not sure if I want to watch the hun scratch around in midtable for the forseeable future or for them to go bust again. If the latter happened, it's hard to see how they would get parachuted straight back into the senior league like last time - nor how they could 'transfer' their tainted honours to another new club yet again.

As you observe, it is good entertainment, and we're only just getting started.

I think you may well be correct in a meltdown. It may not be a liquidation though. It could be a yam style administration which would free them from the huge hurdles of the Green/Ashley continuation contracts.

There is certainly an air of desperation of obtaining much needed capital and either as you say a very deep pocketed benefactor goes aboard or there is at some point going to be either administration or possibly liquidation.

It is certainly appearing that way. The signs are there.

GGTTH

[ancient hibee]

Must be time for Brian Kennedy to put in an appearance.

[ehf]

GOING CONCERN
The Board of Directors (“the Board”) are required to prepare the statutory nancial statements on the going concern basis unless it is inappropriate to presume that the Group and Parent Company will continue in business. In satisfaction of this responsibility the Board have considered the Group’s ability to meet its liabilities as they fall due.
The Group’s business activities, together with the factors likely to a ect its future development and performance are set out in the Strategic Report. The Strategic Report also describes how the Group manages its capital, its liquidity risk and its exposure to credit risk.
The Group meets its day to day working capital requirements through existing cash facilities, investor loans and nance leases. Management information tools including budgets and cash ow forecasts are used to monitor and manage current and future liquidity. The Board acknowledges that there is a level of uncertainty in the general economic environment which may impact the trading position of its customers and suppliers.
The Board has undertaken a recent and thorough review of the Group’s forecasts and the associated risks. These forecasts extend for a period beyond one year from the date of approval of these nancial statements. The extent of this review re ected the current economic environment, the Club’s current and projected trading and position in Scottish football.
Key assumptions in respect of the Group’s forecasts are discussed within note 1 to the nancial statements.

GOING CONCERN (CONTINUED)
At the time of preparation, the forecast identi ed that the Group would require up to £4.0m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season 2016/2017 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due. Following the progression of the team to the Semi Finals of the Scottish League Cup, the funding requirement is now anticipated to be £3.75m. The rst tranche of funding amounting to £2.9m has been received from investors in October 2016, with further funds forecast to be required in March 2017.
Further funding may be required during the 2017/18 season, the quantum of which is dependent on future football performance and European football participation.
The Board of Directors has received undertakings from certain investors that they will provide nancial support to the Group and have satis ed themselves as to the validity of these undertakings and that the individuals have the means and authority to provide such funding as and when it is required. The Board acknowledge that had these assurances not been secured then a material uncertainty would exist which may cast doubt over the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern and therefore its ability to realise its assets and discharge its liabilities in the normal course of business. With the appropriate assurances obtained and the continued support of the investors, the Board believe that any such uncertainty has been removed.
The nancial support to be made available more than covers the projected shortfall for this season and beyond. The Board further understands that additional facilities can be made available as and when required for investment in the team.
As such, after making the enquiries referred to above, the Board of Directors believe that there is a reasonable expectation that the Group will at all times have adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future. Accordingly they continue to adopt the going concern basis in preparing this report and the statutory nancial statements.

That is complete dereliction of duty by the auditors; basically saying the Board are confident it will be OK but they have done nothing to verify this themselves. Shameful.

Presumably nothing in these accounts re contingent liabilities for repairs to the stadium.

[Ozyhibby]

That is complete dereliction of duty by the auditors; basically saying the Board are confident it will be OK but they have done nothing to verify this themselves. Shameful.

Presumably nothing in these accounts re contingent liabilities for repairs to the stadium.

The banking crisis showed that auditors, ratings agencies etc are too conflicted by the need for work to do the job properly. I don't trust any of them.


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[Springbank]

How much did they get from winning the Scottish Cup.... ahhh. Hahahahahahaha


In fairness to the tragic hat, he kept his 4 year old team in the contest right up until the 92nd minute. Plucky Losers thone huns.

[CropleyWasGod]

That is complete dereliction of duty by the auditors; basically saying the Board are confident it will be OK but they have done nothing to verify this themselves. Shameful.

Presumably nothing in these accounts re contingent liabilities for repairs to the stadium.
How do you know that they have done nothing to verify it?



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[magpie1892]

I think you may well be correct in a meltdown. It may not be a liquidation though. It could be a yam style administration which would free them from the huge hurdles of the Green/Ashley continuation contracts.

There is certainly an air of desperation of obtaining much needed capital and either as you say a very deep pocketed benefactor goes aboard or there is at some point going to be either administration or possibly liquidation.

It is certainly appearing that way. The signs are there.

GGTTH

There's a couple of people on here who could pontificate with some accuracy about whether or not the zombie club would be able to secure a CVA and avoid liquidation when they run out of money again. Though I think it can be said with some certainty that Ashley wouldn't take 3p in the pound..!

[northstandhibby]

There's a couple of people on here who could pontificate with some accuracy about whether or not the zombie club would be able to secure a CVA and avoid liquidation when they run out of money again. Though I think it can be said with some certainty that Ashley wouldn't take 3p in the pound..!

The potential debts are nowhere near the levels when they were liquidated as per 2012. Methinks an administration would be the more likely outcome however it would be fraught with potential other confusions as per quoting per Bomber Brown 'Wheres ra deeds'.

I certainly agree there is some kind of administration or even liquidation event on the horizon as per the levels of anxiety of obtaining capital.

GGTTH

[CropleyWasGod]

There's a couple of people on here who could pontificate with some accuracy about whether or not the zombie club would be able to secure a CVA and avoid liquidation when they run out of money again. Though I think it can be said with some certainty that Ashley wouldn't take 3p in the pound..!
Without knowing the exact make up of the creditors, that's almost impossible to tell.

They had debts at the end of June of about 15m. Close on 3m of that is HMRC, who wouldn't vote for a CVA.
There's no way of knowing what the attitude of the others would be.

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[magpie1892]

Without knowing the exact make up of the creditors, that's almost impossible to tell.

They had debts at the end of June of about 15m. Close on 3m of that is HMRC, who wouldn't vote for a CVA.
There's no way of knowing what the attitude of the others would be.



With Rangers Retail Limited being a separate company to TRIFC, I'm not sure that the latter going into admin as a means of stiffing Ashley, for one, would work?

This reminds me so much of the countdown to Christmas when I was a bairn. We've all been so good this year, I'm certain we're going to get some ace presents.

[Ozyhibby]

Without knowing the exact make up of the creditors, that's almost impossible to tell.

They had debts at the end of June of about 15m. Close on 3m of that is HMRC, who wouldn't vote for a CVA.
There's no way of knowing what the attitude of the others would be.

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Indeed. Dave King himself voted against the last CVA.


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[magpie1892]

Indeed. Dave King himself voted against the last CVA.



Presumably he thought there was a better chance of his raping a zombie club for his £20m back, and anything else he could get his thieving hands on.

Turns out he was right, but completely outflanked by Charlie Green.

This time, there's nothing but existing debts, and impending new ones. Who's going to fix the three stands' roofs without getting the money up front? Do you think Queens Park FC will give them tick for the use of Hampden while Ibrox is getting fixed? And all those lovely players' contracts...

Talk about chickens coming home to roost!

[shreevesy]

Administration doesn't get rid of the onerous contracts only liquidation does that.

[Lendo]

Could someone confirm?

Clubs going into administration for the first time get a 15 point deduction. For a second round of administration it's a 25 point deduction.

We will maybe get to find out whether The Rangers consider themselves a new club or not.

[CropleyWasGod]

Could someone confirm?

Clubs going into administration for the first time get a 15 point deduction. For a second round of administration it's a 25 point deduction.

We will maybe get to find out whether The Rangers consider themselves a new club or not.
There's no argument IMO.

It's 25 points for a second insolvency within 5 years, even if the owner of the club has changed.

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[ballengeich]

Is there anything in the accounts which indicates how much the combined supporters' group Club 1872 is contributing? I suspect that the directors may be relying on that for a significant proportion of this season's shortfall in return for the promise of a debt to equity exchange at some indeterminate future date.

For next season, a significant risk to them is that some of the season ticket holders will drift away if they don't see a serious title challenge being on. The same could happen to the 1872 input if they don't see the directors "investing" serious sums.

[Glory Lurker]

There's no argument IMO.

It's 25 points for a second insolvency within 5 years, even if the owner of the club has changed.

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Frankly, you, sir, are no fun at all. :greengrin

[Keith_M]

I don't see King staying at sevco much longer. He's £20m in the hole from his previous dealings with the club when Murray was owner. He needs this back as he doesn't actually have any money and this is the only reason he's at the club. Sadly for King, the club does not have any money either and, in fact, desperately needs the mythical £30 million 'over investment' King promised when he took over. King's recently been told that if he wants to fly first class from ZA to see the huns 'going for 55' then he has to pay for these £12,000 tickets himself - hence not at Hampden last Sunday.

So what's the point in King hanging around? He's just going to get more grief as the penny finally drops with the ******ed hun hordes that King is potless. Further, despite the hun trumpeting that they'd 'got rid' of Ashley, he still has Rangers Retail Limited sewn up for the next six years, and Ibrox requires urgent and expensive maintenance - so it's actually even worse than King thought. Tragic stuff.


Sorry, but I can't possibly agree with the part in bold.



:greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

There's no argument IMO.

It's 25 points for a second insolvency within 5 years, even if the owner of the club has changed.

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Sure that's right, known as the smell test.

Whatever they call it next time if it smells the same as the old club that's good enough for a 25 point deduction. Unless Reagan and Doncaster decide to help them out in some way again.

[Keith_M]

‘My view of what it will take to make Rangers competitive again is bottom end £30m but probably £50m — over the next four years,’ King told Sportsmail.

‘From the discussions I have to date I think there are other people who would come with me. ‘But I would say I would probably have to put in £30m of the £50m over the period of time. And I could probably get other people to put in £20m.

‘Would I be willing to invest £30m despite what happened previously? Of course. Sure.’


Dave King, Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2588429/Dave-King-commit-30m-ensure-Rangers-return-Scottish-Premiership.html), 2014 - immediately after passing the SFA's "fit and proper person" test (despite failing two out of three of the prerequisites)

[grunt]

‘From the discussions I have to date I think there are other people who would come with me. ‘But I would say I would probably have to put in £30m of the £50m over the period of time. And I could probably get other people to put in £20m. Would I be willing to invest £30m despite what happened previously? Of course. Sure.’

Dave KingI'm sure he's just getting the "other people" to put their £20m in first.

[Wee Effen Bee]

My experience on corporate finance? Zilch - only time I read about financial news items is on this board when money threads are posted about us, the the them and Hertz. But I do have an opinion: nowt will happen again this year and the Huns will struggle through till they can raise some bawbees from STs or somewhere. The reason for this? We can't be THAT lucky twice in a calendar year can we - grubbed them in a spectacular manner in the SC final and then they go kaput soon after? That would be football porn...I mean gold:greengrin

[southsider]

Is there any way (however remote) that Whyte may win the court case and the assets of the rangers are transferred to him again ? Now that would be funny.

[Kavinho]

Genuinely, can't see an insolvency event coming any time soon.

[northstandhibby]

Genuinely, can't see an insolvency event coming any time soon.

If the group who hibs were financially dependent on had posted going concerns that they required significant additional money to maintain being kept afloat I would be changing my breeks.

GGTTH

[Kavinho]

When you see these year on year though and the funding is found, you get better control of your sphincter muscles!


Revenue up 6m and losses fallen by 4m.

Can only see Revenue for them Increasing again this year.

They are looking more attractive than before to an investor (starting from a very low base of course), so I don't see them struggling to find a relatively 'short term' funding option - even if it's not TLK'S own funds.


Now that said, they are clearly not out of the woods yet.

[CropleyWasGod]

Genuinely, can't see an insolvency event coming any time soon.
For me, it's dependent on the attitude of the external funders.

3.75m is repayable on demand. The rest by December 17. If the former suddenly needed their cash.......[emoji48]

And don't forget HMRC. 2.8M IIRC.

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[Keith_M]

When you see these year on year though and the funding is found, you get better control of your sphincter muscles!


Revenue up 6m and losses fallen by 4m.

Can only see Revenue for them Increasing again this year.

They are looking more attractive than before to an investor (sussing from a very low base of course), so I don't see them struggling to find a relatively 'short term' funding option - even if it's not TLK'S own funds.


Now that said, they are clearly not out of the woods yet.


That would be true, if it wasn't for the fact that their losses are only so low because they're putting off paying for essential repairs to the stadium.

Anybody buying the Club from King would have to be prepared to spend millions on Ibrox... or continue to fund the Council with brown envelopes.

[Kavinho]

For me, it's dependent on the attitude of the external funders.

3.75m is repayable on demand. The rest by December 17. If the former suddenly needed their cash.......[emoji48]

And don't forget HMRC. 2.8M IIRC.

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The Hmrc will have been included in their 'bills falling due' calculations.
And did they not say that 2.9m of funding has been provided this month, with more expected in March17.

It'll only be demanded if they don't service it, so it's not like they have to have it resting in an account to meet that as yet undemanded figure.

Not saying it won't be expensive funding,but I expect they'll find a way..

[CropleyWasGod]

The HMRC figure is over and above the loans repayable on demand.

They had 9m of current liabilities. 3.75m of that is loans, 5.2m other creditors; of the latter, 2.8m due to HMRC.

How that has been dealt with since June is anyone's guess. Given their past experience with HMRC, that's the debt that should have been attacked first.

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[magpie1892]

They are looking more attractive than before to an investor

Please tell me this is not a serious comment.

[Jones28]

Daily Mail reporting that their investor debt has risen to £10 million, wheres Mr King and his tens of millions now?

[CropleyWasGod]

Daily Mail reporting that their investor debt has risen to £10 million, wheres Mr King and his tens of millions now?
Unless the Daily Mail has access to the inner workings of the club, they're looking at the accounts.

It was 10m at the end of June. A further 2.9m has been borrowed since then.

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[Kavinho]

Please tell me this is not a serious comment.

My only point is its an improvement since before!!

They are less of a basket case than they used to be. They have more access to bigger income than before.!

By the way the full quote should read.
They are looking more attractive than before to an investor (starting from a very low base of course).

[CropleyWasGod]

My only point is its an improvement since before!!

They are less of a basket case than they used to be. They have more access to bigger income than before.!
Drilling into the accounts, they're not really less of a basket case. Their Net Current Liabilities, which is a measure of their short term solvency, haven't moved in the 12 months since the last accounts.

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[ian cruise]

My only point is its an improvement since before!!

They are less of a basket case than they used to be. They have more access to bigger income than before.!

You've got a point, they aren't an attractive position for an investor but they're not as bad as they were. I think they'll limp onwards until they're OK.

I actually think relegation would see fans rally round and support the club as they could rehash the old hard done to because Scottish football is out to get them, If they finished 9th or 10th I'd actually see more fans walking away as they realised their future is just as a poor SPFL club.

[Ozyhibby]

With the new Rangers, a lot depends on them keeping the fans on side. That may not be easy as they realise just how big the gap with Celtic is.
These accounts show a turnover of £22m. Celtics last accounts had a turnover of £52m and that was considered a bad year for them. This season they are expected to turnover £80m.
As the Sevconians begin to realise that this gap is not closing and they are going to be Espanyol to Celtics Barca, they may start to lose interest like they did in the 80's before the Bank of Scotland started funding Murray's crazy spending.


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[Deansy]

With the new Rangers, a lot depends on them keeping the fans on side. That may not be easy as they realise just how big the gap with Celtic is.
These accounts show a turnover of £22m. Celtics last accounts had a turnover of £52m and that was considered a bad year for them. This season they are expected to turnover £80m.
As the Sevconians begin to realise that this gap is not closing and they are going to be Espanyol to Celtics Barca, they may start to lose interest like they did in the 80's before the Bank of Scotland started funding Murray's crazy spending.


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What I'v been saying for ages - today's Hun just doesn't seem to have any knowledge or memory of what things were like for them BEFORE the 'Money years' !. The vast majority of them thought as soon as they made to to the SPL they'd be challenging for all the honours going - truly, they are without doubt, the dumbest support in football !

[magpie1892]

My only point is its an improvement since before!!

They are less of a basket case than they used to be. They have more access to bigger income than before.!

By the way the full quote should read.
They are looking more attractive than before to an investor (starting from a very low base of course).


There is no improvement on the balance sheet. Then you need to factor in the cost of repairs required to Ibrox, and the millions of pounds leaving Ibrox to pay the wages of Barton, Krancjar, Garner, Senderos, Hill, etc. No commercial income, etc.

'They have more access to a bigger income than before.!' - I really don't understand what this means.

The RoI on any money 'invested' in the hun at the present moment would be to lose the ****ing lot.

[Kavinho]

There is no improvement on the balance sheet. Then you need to factor in the cost of repairs required to Ibrox, and the millions of pounds leaving Ibrox to pay the wages of Barton, Krancjar, Garner, Senderos, Hill, etc. No commercial income, etc.

'They have more access to a bigger income than before.!' - I really don't understand what this means.

The RoI on any money 'invested' in the hun at the present moment would be to lose the ****ing lot.


I'm just saying they will have bigger receipts this year when compared to last. - more punters watching more telly money and more prize money.

Bit of double counting re the wages. They'd have counted them when establishing what payments are falling due, before saying they need to plug a gap of less than 4m, of which they've said they've found 2.9m this month(based only on an above post).

Yes, they've put off maintenance, yes the place is ropey and needs it.

But its not the balance sheet bit I'm taking about.. its the cash flow. I mean its not about fixing the building, just if they can afford to keep paying the lighting and water bills!

We're not really far off the same point.
But the bit you took exception to earlier was just me saying this year, they are worth a bigger look compared to last year if you are an Ann Budge type character willing to take the risk and get a better interest rate back than your bank would give you.

[Ozyhibby]

In October 2015, Ibrox and Auchenhowie were valued at a total of £75.5m. In the accounts, after provisions for depreciation and impairment, the pair are valued at a total of £40.4m. That’s a £35m drop in a year suggesting that there has been a significant issue with either Ibrox or Auchenhowie.

Any accountants explain this bit to me?


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[Weststandwanab]

In October 2015, Ibrox and Auchenhowie were valued at a total of £75.5m. In the accounts, after provisions for depreciation and impairment, the pair are valued at a total of £40.4m. That’s a £35m drop in a year suggesting that there has been a significant issue with either Ibrox or Auchenhowie.

Any accountants explain this bit to me?


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Originally deliberately over valued, in my opinion, to improve the look of their balance sheet,

[CropleyWasGod]

In October 2015, Ibrox and Auchenhowie were valued at a total of £75.5m. In the accounts, after provisions for depreciation and impairment, the pair are valued at a total of £40.4m. That’s a £35m drop in a year suggesting that there has been a significant issue with either Ibrox or Auchenhowie.

Any accountants explain this bit to me?


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There has been a change in the way in which accounts must show the value of buildings. They now have to be depreciated, where there was no such need before.

Our own accounts had the same issue....although the effect on the Balance Sheet was much less dramatic.

If you look at the RFC accounts, there will be a note showing what the buildings would have been valued at last year, had they been on the "new" basis.

IMHO, it's a bit of an academic issue. Buildings are not necessarily worth what they are shown at in the accounts.

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[Ozyhibby]

Originally deliberately over valued, in my opinion, to improve the look of their balance sheet,

I'm just wondering why it had to be devalued this year?


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[CropleyWasGod]

I'm just wondering why it had to be devalued this year?


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To comply with the new Accounting Standard, which only came into effect this year. We did it, as should every company that has buildings.

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[Jack]

I recall something about Ashley getting first dibs on some assets or other if they went into liquidation or down the tubes again.

Has this changed when I wiznae looking?

[CropleyWasGod]

I recall something about Ashley getting first dibs on some assets or other if they went into liquidation or down the tubes again.

Has this changed when I wiznae looking?
It did when his loan was repaid.

He had a security....but only to the extent of the loan. That security was released when the loan was repaid.

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[CropleyWasGod]

Elsewhere in the accounts....

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14831498.How_Rangers_paid___300_000_EBT_fine_despi te_commission_saying_they_are_not_liable/

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[The Falcon]

There's no argument IMO.

It's 25 points for a second insolvency within 5 years, even if the owner of the club has changed.

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What if the Club has changed? :cb


Drilling into the accounts, they're not really less of a basket case. Their Net Current Liabilities, which is a measure of their short term solvency, haven't moved in the 12 months since the last accounts.

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I am no expert but surely if we have learned anything from the Oldco and Yams implosions its that the the value of the assets Football Clubs place on their stadiums (particularly in the book value of Tincastle and Ipox) is nowhere near the amount that will be realised in any fire sale? Not seen the accounts but if the buildings were valued at the amounts that the administrators recovered from theiir sale, then how would the accounts look? After all it was only a few years ago so that should be a decent benchmark figure........

[CropleyWasGod]

What if the Club has changed? :cb



I am no expert but surely if we have learned anything from the Oldco and Yams implosions its that the the value of the assets Football Clubs place on their stadiums (particularly in the book value of Tincastle and Ipox) is nowhere near the amount that will be realised in any fire sale? Not seen the accounts but if the buildings were valued at the amounts that the administrators recovered from theiir sale, then how would the accounts look? After all it was only a few years ago so that should be a decent benchmark figure........
Accounts are prepared on the basis that the company is a Going Concern. Hence the value should reflect that.

As for the first question.....beat it, that's been done to death on here [emoji48] [emoji48]

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[Famous Fiver]

I have not read the 1178 pages on this thread but did I read somewhere that the need an additional £8 Million over in the next year just to keep the lights on?

[CropleyWasGod]

I have not read the 1178 pages on this thread but did I read somewhere that the need an additional £8 Million over in the next year just to keep the lights on?
Possibly, but it would be speculation rather than any informed opinion. :)

The accounts say they need 3.75m to get to the end of the season. They've had 2.9m of that in the past few weeks.

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[The Green Goblin]

I have not read the 1178 pages on this thread but did I read somewhere that the need an additional £8 Million over in the next year just to keep the lights on?

I think it's on page 742... :greengrin

[northstandhibby]

Possibly, but it would be speculation rather than any informed opinion. :)

The accounts say they need 3.75m to get to the end of the season. They've had 2.9m of that in the past few weeks.

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Nearly 4 million pound to keep the lights on.

These benefactors will have to dig deep once again.

GGTTH

[lapsedhibee]

did I read somewhere that the need an additional £8 Million over in the next year just to keep the lights on?


Nearly 4 million pound to keep the lights on.


LED lamps?

[Keith_M]

It seems like every six months the directors loan money to the club/company just to keep going until the end of the season.

At the beginning of this season, the amount still owed to those 'benefactors' had reached 10 million, which would have increased to 13 million with October's loan.


Does loaning the club money count as part of King's fabled 50 million investment, and has there been any info released on how and when they plan to pay that money back?

[CropleyWasGod]

It seems like every six months the directors loan money to the club/company just to keep going until the end of the season.

At the beginning of this season, the amount still owed to those 'benefactors' had reached 10 million, which would have increased to 13 million with October's loan.


Does loaning the club money count as part of King's fabled 50 million investment, and has there been any info released on how and when they plan to pay that money back?


Of the 10m, 3.5 is repayable on demand, with the rest due in December 17. No idea about the new 2.9m.

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[Ronniekirk]

They are now up to second in the leaugue If thats where they finish thats nearly a million quid they get Cup runs and half season tickets too
What is the up to date position re Club Merchandise Strips etc is Ashley still taking the Lions Share from this
I dont think they will have expected to finish 2nd Aberdeen really should have that in the bag given they have a settled. Squad

[Since90+2]

They are now up to second in the leaugue If thats where they finish thats nearly a million quid they get Cup runs and half season tickets too
What is the up to date position re Club Merchandise Strips etc is Ashley still taking the Lions Share from this
I dont think they will have expected to finish 2nd Aberdeen really should have that in the bag given they have a settled. Squad

Rangers wage budget will be about 5 times that of Aberdeen. They should be finishing second.

[Ronniekirk]

Rangers wage budget will be about 5 times that of Aberdeen. They should be finishing second.

But if they play to thier potential Aberdeen are the better Team imo They just seem to switch off and loose games they shouldnt

[magpie1892]

They are now up to second in the leaugue If thats where they finish thats nearly a million quid they get Cup runs and half season tickets too
What is the up to date position re Club Merchandise Strips etc is Ashley still taking the Lions Share from this
I dont think they will have expected to finish 2nd Aberdeen really should have that in the bag given they have a settled. Squad

Rangers Retail Limited is a company registered in England and majority owned by Ashley. Rangers are tied into a deal with RRL for the next six years, a deal which gives sevco about 4p in the pound. It's a great piece of business by Ashley and there's nothing the hun can do about it, despite TLK's fighting talk. If you recall, King said in August that the hun were looking to launch their own kit. I wonder how that project is going?

I think you're being a bit premature to think that the hun will necessarily finish as runners up. Aberdeen are a better side with better players and a better manager. The hun signed 11 players in the summer, about 2-3 of that 11 are getting a regular game, and the wages of a number of the rest - Barton, Krancjar, Garner, Senderdross, etc. add up to quite a tidy sum.

It's all well and good saying that because the huns' wage bill is five times that of AFC they should be finishing second but that's a non-sequitur if they're literally throwing this money away on dross they don't/can't play.

[HappyHanlon]

**** the huns.

[grunt]

Phil M has a column where he's got some accountant type chap to look at RIFC accounts:

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/rifc-accounts-2016/#more-8214

[greenginger]

Phil has posted a full copy of their accounts and the first bit I can't square is their gate receipts.


They went up to £ 17.3 million , an increase of £ 5.7 million.

In the Key Performance measures, season tickets sales increased by £ 3.2 million but average walk-up customers fell from 8041/game the season before to 6878/game in the accounts season.

There is an extra £ 2.5 million that must have come from somewhere, maybe for the Cup final ? did they get our share ! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Phil has posted a full copy of their accounts and the first bit I can't square is their gate receipts.


They went up to £ 17.3 million , an increase of £ 5.7 million.

In the Key Performance measures, season tickets sales increased by £ 3.2 million but average walk-up customers fell from 8041/game the season before to 6878/game in the accounts season.

There is an extra £ 2.5 million that must have come from somewhere, maybe for the Cup final ? did they get our share ! :greengrin
The gate receipts include hospitality income. Playing in a higher league will have justified them in putting the prices up.

Also, I'm not sure where the prize money from the League and Cup has been included. That may be in there.

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[grunt]

There is an extra £ 2.5 million that must have come from somewhere, maybe for the Cup final ? did they get our share ! :greengrinThink I read somewhere they got £1m from the Petrofac Cup run and win?

[greenginger]

The gate receipts include hospitality income. Playing in a higher league will have justified them in putting the prices up.

Also, I'm not sure where the prize money from the League and Cup has been included. That may be in there.

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They were still in the championship in the season these figures are for.

[CropleyWasGod]

They were still in the championship in the season these figures are for.
Ken

Was forgetting that they were 2 years in that. Maybe they put their prices up :)

However, they didn't have the Cup run in that first season. The big gates in the semi (albeit shared) and the final will have helped. Where was the Petrofac final? That would have been a good earner as well.

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[PatHead]

Ken

Was forgetting that they were 2 years in that. Maybe they put their prices up :)

However, they didn't have the Cup run in that first season. The big gates in the semi (albeit shared) and the final will have helped. Where was the Petrofac final? That would have been a good earner as well.

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Petrofac final was at Hampden. Would have been a good earner for the new club.

[Springbank]

Rangers Retail Limited is a company registered in England and majority owned by Ashley. Rangers are tied into a deal with RRL for the next six years, a deal which gives sevco about 4p in the pound. It's a great piece of business by Ashley and there's nothing the hun can do about it, despite TLK's fighting talk. If you recall, King said in August that the hun were looking to launch their own kit. I wonder how that project is going?

I think you're being a bit premature to think that the hun will necessarily finish as runners up. Aberdeen are a better side with better players and a better manager. The hun signed 11 players in the summer, about 2-3 of that 11 are getting a regular game, and the wages of a number of the rest - Barton, Krancjar, Garner, Senderdross, etc. add up to quite a tidy sum.

It's all well and good saying that because the huns' wage bill is five times that of AFC they should be finishing second but that's a non-sequitur if they're literally throwing this money away on dross they don't/can't play.


Theres a buy back clause in that rangers retail deal too, where any unsold stock has to be bought (paid for) by rangers to mike Ashley (as owner of rangers retail)

as there's an ever-so-sensible and not-at-all-suicidal merchandise boycott going on, the accounts appear to show rangers had to pay Ashley (in his role as rangers retail owner) £850,000.

swell!

[HoboHarry]

One of the comments on Phil Macs site is saying that Sevco are already out of any possible European tournament next season due the FFP regulations. Is this true?

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/valuable-feedback-on-rugger-chaps-analysis/

[Mr White]

One of the comments on Phil Macs site is saying that Sevco are already out of any possible European tournament next season due the FFP regulations. Is this true?

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/valuable-feedback-on-rugger-chaps-analysis/

If that's true I hope they finish 2nd or 3rd as being barred from Europe despite finishing in a qualifying league position would be absolutely ****ing hilarious. Even more so than finishing in the bottom 6. Although tbf that would also be pretty chuckleworthy.

[Ozyhibby]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161030/26e1f9e169d0233277e87010d147b44a.png

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

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[CropleyWasGod]

One of the comments on Phil Macs site is saying that Sevco are already out of any possible European tournament next season due the FFP regulations. Is this true?

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/valuable-feedback-on-rugger-chaps-analysis/

A quick Google suggests it's nonsense.....

http://www.uefa.com/community/news/newsid=2064391.html

[HoboHarry]

A quick Google suggests it's nonsense.....

http://www.uefa.com/community/news/newsid=2064391.html
Not so sure - the second paragraph of section 2 could trip them up could it not?

[CropleyWasGod]

Not so sure - the second paragraph of section 2 could trip them up could it not?

The third section sets out the limits. Since they're being supported by their directors, the limits are quite high.

[Ozyhibby]

The third section sets out the limits. Since they're being supported by their directors, the limits are quite high.

It does say direct contribution/payment? All the money into Sevco has been in the form of loans and the money from King came through an offshore company. Is this still ok?


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[CropleyWasGod]

It does say direct contribution/payment? All the money into Sevco has been in the form of loans and the money from King came through an offshore company. Is this still ok?


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tbh, it's not that clear to me. But I can't see what other way they would expect losses to be covered. They do say that it's to prevent running-up unsustainable debt. I presume they mean "external" debt, to banks etc., rather than "internal"...... cough...... like when they owe it to themselves.:cb

[Ozyhibby]

tbh, it's not that clear to me. But I can't see what other way they would expect losses to be covered. They do say that it's to prevent running-up unsustainable debt. I presume they mean "external" debt, to banks etc., rather than "internal"...... cough...... like when they owe it to themselves.:cb

Isn't the point that they expect losses not to happen at all but if they do then any cash put in must be a gift? Sevco's debt seems to be owed to a lot of different sources but it is all in the form of loans.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Isn't the point that they expect losses not to happen at all but if they do then any cash put in must be a gift? Sevco's debt seems to be owed to a lot of different sources but it is all in the form of loans.


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Certainly doesn't stipulate gifts.

Section 7 talks about owners 'recapitalising". Loans are a form of capital.

it would be nice to see a list of definitions of the various terms they use, which are ambiguous IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

Certainly doesn't stipulate gifts.

Section 7 talks about owners 'recapitalising". Loans are a form of capital.

it would be nice to see a list of definitions of the various terms they use, which are ambiguous IMO.

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Clublicensing/01/50/09/12/1500912_DOWNLOAD.pdf

It will all be in there. [emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161031/03f8412130f1e114878fd93b79877092.png

Found that in an article about Middlesborough. If it's correct then Sevco have a problem as they can't convert those loans to equity without the permission of shareholders and that was denied to them last time they tried by the Ashley block of shareholders (Ashley and the Easdales).



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[JeMeSouviens]

Accounts are prepared on the basis that the company is a Going Concern. Hence the value should reflect that.

As for the first question.....beat it, that's been done to death on here [emoji48] [emoji48]

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Much like the Old Huns. :devil::wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Clublicensing/01/50/09/12/1500912_DOWNLOAD.pdf

It will all be in there. [emoji23]


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Knock yourself out :greengrin

[Keith_M]

3) Are clubs no longer allowed to have losses?
To be exact, clubs can spend up to €5million more than they earn per assessment period (three years). However it can exceed this level to a certain limit, if it is entirely covered by a direct contribution/payment from the club owner(s) or a related party. This prevents the build-up of unsustainable debt.
The limits are:

• €45m for assessment periods 2013/14 and 2014/15
• €30m for assessment periods 2015/16, 2016/17 and 2017/18


In order to promote investment in stadiums, training facilities, youth development and women’s football (from 2015), all such costs are excluded from the break-even calculation.

[Mr White]

I wonder how many clubs have been blocked from uefa competition as a result of these rules? Have any?

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder how many clubs have been blocked from uefa competition as a result of these rules? Have any?

50-odd, according to that page.

[Mr White]

50-odd, according to that page.

Thanks I knew I could rely on someone else to have bothered to read through it :greengrin

[Keith_M]

Some Newspapers are claiming that Ashley is going to take T'Rangers back to court over their attempts to rip up the Retail Deal.


The figure mentioned was a claim for £1M, but it may be hokum as it appears to have started with an article in the DR.


HERE (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/mike-ashley-to-sue-rangers-for-1m-1-4273333)

[CropleyWasGod]

Some Newspapers are claiming that Ashley is going to take T'Rangers back to court over their attempts to rip up the Retail Deal.


The figure mentioned was a claim for £1M, but it may be hokum as it appears to have started with an article in the DR.


HERE (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/mike-ashley-to-sue-rangers-for-1m-1-4273333)

From the accounts, which is where they have seen it:-

On 15 August 2016 the Club was served with a claim by SDI Retail Services Limited raised in the Chancery Division
of the High Court of Justice. The Club is a Defendant to the Claim which has also been brought against Dave King,
Paul Murray and Rangers Retail Limited. The Claim seeks the Court’s permission for SDI Retail Services Limited to be
allowed to bring derivative proceedings on Rangers Retail Limited’s behalf against the other defendants to the claim.
The proceedings SDI Retail Services Limited wishes to be allowed to bring on Rangers Retail Limited’s behalf would
seek declarations that the IPLR is in full force and effect and that the Club’s notice was ineffective to terminate the
IPLR. The Club, Mr King and Mr Murray intend to dispute SDI Retail Services Limited’s entitlement to be permitted to
bring derivative proceedings on Rangers Retail Limited’s behalf and a hearing is scheduled at the High Court on 1/2
December 2016 to determine whether SDI Retail Services Limited should be allowed to continue such proceedings.
The proceedings that SDI Retail Services Limited wishes to be allowed to bring includes a claim for damages against
the Club. No value has been placed on that claim. The Club will resist any such claim and in any event believes it
would not exceed £1m.

[The Falcon]

It must be reassuring for the Rangers faithful to see that they have assets of over £78m with equity of over £42m to save them should it go belly up. And they only paid about £5m for it just four years ago. What a deal Charlie got!

Also that the money they owe is not to some bank or other, but to themselves! What could possibly go wrong.......

On that basis all this scaremongering and negativity by the Cellic minded media is just pure jealousy, so it is.


:offski:

[Green Man]

3) Are clubs no longer allowed to have losses?
To be exact, clubs can spend up to €5million more than they earn per assessment period (three years). However it can exceed this level to a certain limit, if it is entirely covered by a direct contribution/payment from the club owner(s) or a related party. This prevents the build-up of unsustainable debt.
The limits are:

• €45m for assessment periods 2013/14 and 2014/15
• €30m for assessment periods 2015/16, 2016/17 and 2017/18


In order to promote investment in stadiums, training facilities, youth development and women’s football (from 2015), all such costs are excluded from the break-even calculation.

The good news for The Rangers is that €30m is more in GBP than it was a few months ago.

[Keith_M]

The good news for The Rangers is that €30m is more in GBP than it was a few months ago.


How much is it in South African Rand?



:devil:

[Ozyhibby]

The good news for The Rangers is that €30m is more in GBP than it was a few months ago.

The bad news for them is they have not had any contributions, only loans.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Joey Barton to return to 'full-time training' with Rangers


Rangers have announced that midfielder Joey Barton "will return to full-time training" following a club imposed suspension.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37852374

[Since90+2]

Kranjcar ruled out for 6 months today so sounds as though they had no choice but to bring him back.

[Ozyhibby]

Kranjcar ruled out for 6 months today so sounds as though they had no choice but to bring him back.

Going by the statement on their website I very much doubt he will play for them again.


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[HoboHarry]

Going by the statement on their website I very much doubt he will play for them again.


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LOL They can't find grounds to sack him so they have to take him back. I agree with you though, the wording suggests he won't even train with the first team again, far less play for them....

Oh boy, this could be great when he leaves, Sevco better offer him enough to have him sign a confidentiality agreement or JB will leave them looking really stupid I imagine.....

[JDHibs]

Bit of a coincidence that Krankjar is ruled out for the rest of the season, then 4 hours later Barton is invited back to training...

[Marco G]

Bit of a coincidence that Krankjar is ruled out for the rest of the season, then 4 hours later Barton is invited back to training...
No link between them. BBC article states that if Rangers dont let Barton train they would be in breach of FIFA rules. Sounds like they are doing the minimum they are obliged to do. Anyway he is still picking up his fat wage packet!

[GreenLake]

What would the bookies have given for a 5-1 Celtic win at home?

[Malthibby]

Double financial whammy for The Sevco. Ain't that just swell.
I suppose you could argue that Krankjar out injured will improve the team but it's an awfie amount of money
pouring out the door between Krank & Joey for absolutely he-haw in return.
Happy days.

[ancient hibee]

I suspect Warburton didn't want to sign either of them as it was exactly the opposite of his ideas for signings but totally compatible with the numpties running the club wanting to throw the dogs a couple of bones to keep them going.

[Marco G]

Double financial whammy for The Sevco. Ain't that just swell.
I suppose you could argue that Krankjar out injured will improve the team but it's an awfie amount of money
pouring out the door between Krank & Joey for absolutely he-haw in return.
Happy days.
Think Krankjar is a good player who was just getting fit. He will be missed! So their top two signings wont do anything but draw their hefty wages.

[magpie1892]

Double financial whammy for The Sevco. Ain't that just swell.
I suppose you could argue that Krankjar out injured will improve the team but it's an awfie amount of money
pouring out the door between Krank & Joey for absolutely he-haw in return.
Happy days.

More than £40k a week the pair, plus bonuses.

They may get rid of Barton in January if (and it's a big 'if') the price is right, but Krancjar's injury takes him to the end of his contract so that's £16.5k/wk from now until May regardless.

Devastating stuff.

[Ryan69]

Joey Barton to return to 'full-time training' with Rangers


Rangers have announced that midfielder Joey Barton "will return to full-time training" following a club imposed suspension.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37852374

I believe they have to allow him to train eventually.
Otherwise its breach of contract or something.

[JeMeSouviens]

I believe they have to allow him to train eventually.
Otherwise its breach of contract or something.

They have to provide training facilities but not necessarily with the 1st team. I guess they'll try to humiliate him and hope he snaps to take whatever meagre payoff they're offering.

[Jack Hackett]

More than £40k a week the pair, plus bonuses.

They may get rid of Barton in January if (and it's a big 'if') the price is right, but Krancjar's injury takes him to the end of his contract so that's £16.5k/wk from now until May regardless.

Devastating stuff.

Don't clubs insure their players against long term injury? Not saying this is actually the case with these cheapskates, but it's available...in which case it could be a bonus for them, as his wages would be covered.

[Deansy]

They have to provide training facilities but not necessarily with the 1st team. I guess they'll try to humiliate him and hope he snaps to take whatever meagre payoff they're offering.

If that's the case, expect more 'Exclusives' from the 'tard' and other such rags, as they do their bit for 'The Cause' !!

'Barton does NOT flush loo/wash hands after doing his toilet'

[Wee Effen Bee]

If that's the case, expect more 'Exclusives' from the 'tard' and other such rags, as they do their bit for 'The Cause' !!

'Barton does NOT flush loo/wash hands after doing his toilet'

What? Castrate and hang him the dirty fenian ******* and sign a player who understands the real Gers history and traditions!:grr:

[silverhibee]

They have to provide training facilities but not necessarily with the 1st team. I guess they'll try to humiliate him and hope he snaps to take whatever meagre payoff they're offering.

He is to train with the youth team, the Rangers will make sure he has no contact with any 1st team players while at training and will be told to stay away from ipox on match days, no contact with the media, as long as he has a qualified coach to train him then that's all the new club need to do for him.

He picks up his basic wage every month for that.