Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[grunt]

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/ashley-will-not-fix-it-for-king/

JJ saying that Petrie opposed King's F&P status.
Did we know this?Oh, I read further, and he's also saying this:


The £5m offer is conditional upon Ashley withdrawing from all litigation in regard to RIFC and the SFA’s fit and proper determination.

[Ozyhibby]

He seems to be coming round to the view of a few on here that the meeting with the spfl was the tipping point. The beaks at Hampden do not want to have to lie in court. I think King was told he had to make it go away or the SFA would act against Sevco.


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[Ozyhibby]

Oh, I read further, and he's also saying this:

I always assumed he would try for that. It's whether Ashley is willing to play ball?


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[CropleyWasGod]

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/ashley-will-not-fix-it-for-king/

JJ saying that Petrie opposed King's F&P status.
Did we know this?

It wasn't public.

[Ronniekirk]

He seems to be coming round to the view of a few on here that the meeting with the spfl was the tipping point. The beaks at Hampden do not want to have to lie in court. I think King was told he had to make it go away or the SFA would act against Sevco.


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Well let's hope it doesn't go away and the truth comes out ,Looks like people at the top getting nervous ,and in the interests of Sporting Integrity it's about time we heard the truth and if that involves the SFA acting against Sevco bring it on ,as am getting tired of thier continued posturing about getting back to being the biggest and best club ,back in Europe etc etc and then bleating they aren't on enough committees to wield thier influence ,Seems they are managing to do that fine without being on committees .

[CropleyWasGod]

He seems to be coming round to the view of a few on here that the meeting with the spfl was the tipping point. The beaks at Hampden do not want to have to lie in court. I think King was told he had to make it go away or the SFA would act against Sevco.


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He's suggesting that Regan was in on the meeting. Not sure how he would know, but it does explain why some people are suggesting the the F&P status was under discussion.

[Dashing Bob S]

They're in default on the loan, as it should have been paid a while back. So.... the terms no longer apply and, as you say, there may...will....be penalty clauses.

DK will know that, of course. We don't, and I'm speculating that one of them could be the right to keep the jerseys :)

Further to that, it may be in MA's interests to keep the loan unpaid.

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Ashley has nothing to lose and everything to gain by them defaulting on the loan. 5 mill is peanuts to him, and potentially offers a big return in terms of the inevitable penalty clauses he has. King made a terrible tactical error by making this personal.

It's in Rangers' interest to get the loan paid off and Ashley out of the equation as soon as possible. The fact that they can't seem to do this, whether for reasons of lack of financial resources, or internal politics and bickering or both, doesn't bode well.

[Brunswickbill]

They're in default on the loan, as it should have been paid a while back. So.... the terms no longer apply and, as you say, there may...will....be penalty clauses.

DK will know that, of course. We don't, and I'm speculating that one of them could be the right to keep the jerseys :)

Further to that, it may be in MA's interests to keep the loan unpaid.

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CWG, How are they in default? If they are surely MA would be in court over the debt rather than shaking King's and the SFA's cages over other matters.

[CropleyWasGod]

CWG, How are they in default? If they are surely MA would be in court over the debt rather than shaking King's and the SFA's cages over other matters.

Because they didn't repay it when it was meant to be paid, IIRC.

Like I say, it may suit MA to keep it that way. Penalty clauses, holding on to the IP, holding on to the securities, keeping the 7-year notice period untouched. All for the sake of £5m, which ( I think) he's getting interest on as well.

There's no point in taking RFC to Court if he's happy to keep things as they are.

[grunt]

I thought they were in default as soon as they sacked Llambias and Leach.
I understood that one of the conditions of the loan was that he had two Directors on the Board?

[Deansy]

He's suggesting that Regan was in on the meeting. Not sure how he would know, but it does explain why some people are suggesting the the F&P status was under discussion.

Re this F&P status - when last week, King was questioned outside Hampden, his explanation (guaranteed 100% lie !) was " It was just a courtesy meeting as I haven't met these guys". So does this mean he was passed as 'Fit & Proper' yet didn't even have to go through an interview with them ?. Because if that's true, you'd think that having a record like his, at the very least, a face-to-face meeting would've been top of the list so they could at least have looked him in the eye and see how he reacted to questions - or am I just being stupid by looking at things as if logic, common-sense, honesty and decency are everyday happenings where the Hun and the GFA are concerned ??

[HoboHarry]

Re this F&P status - when last week, King was questioned outside Hampden, his explanation (guaranteed 100% lie !) was " It was just a courtesy meeting as I haven't met these guys". So does this mean he was passed as 'Fit & Proper' yet didn't even have to go through an interview with them ?. Because if that's true, you'd think that having a record like his, at the very least, a face-to-face meeting would've been top of the list so they could at least have looked him in the eye and see how he reacted to questions - or am I just being stupid by looking at things as if logic, common-sense, honesty and decency are everyday happenings where the Hun and the GFA are concerned ??

No, I wondered the same thing myself....

[jacomo]

I thought they were in default as soon as they sacked Llambias and Leach.
I understood that one of the conditions of the loan was that he had two Directors on the Board?

Oh yes, so it was.

[PatHead]

Because they didn't repay it when it was meant to be paid, IIRC.

Like I say, it may suit MA to keep it that way. Penalty clauses, holding on to the IP, holding on to the securities, keeping the 7-year notice period untouched. All for the sake of £5m, which ( I think) he's getting interest on as well.

There's no point in taking RFC to Court if he's happy to keep things as they are.

My recollection was there was no interest but the higher percentage of the merchandise profit. (which in effect was interest but by another name)

That allowed the old board to say there was no interest on the loan. Not to say there wont be a Wonga rate of interest after default though.

[CropleyWasGod]

Re this F&P status - when last week, King was questioned outside Hampden, his explanation (guaranteed 100% lie !) was " It was just a courtesy meeting as I haven't met these guys". So does this mean he was passed as 'Fit & Proper' yet didn't even have to go through an interview with them ?. Because if that's true, you'd think that having a record like his, at the very least, a face-to-face meeting would've been top of the list so they could at least have looked him in the eye and see how he reacted to questions - or am I just being stupid by looking at things as if logic, common-sense, honesty and decency are everyday happenings where the Hun and the GFA are concerned ??

He was meeting the SPFL last week.

It was the SFA who passed him as F&P.



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[HoboHarry]

He was meeting the SPFL last week.

It was the SFA who passed him as F&P.



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Doesn't mean the two bodies aren't communicating. I would expect them to be.

[alfie]

Doesn't mean the two bodies aren't communicating. I would expect them to be.
And it's not like they are both based in the same office, oh no wait...

[CropleyWasGod]

Doesn't mean the two bodies aren't communicating. I would expect them to be.
The point was that he hadn't met the SPFL before last week. The question was asked why that was the case when he'd been passed as F&P.

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[jacomo]

Doesn't mean the two bodies aren't communicating. I would expect them to be.

I think we know from 2012 and the death of RFC / birth of Sevco that the SFA and the SPL were in cahoots on the issue.

[Treadstone]

I bet Regan and Doncaster discuss them every time they meet on the sixth floor.

In the cludgie.
With the taps on.
And the hand-dryers blasting.

[Deansy]

He was meeting the SPFL last week.

It was the SFA who passed him as F&P.



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Cheers Bud.

[greenginger]

Fulham now targeting Mark Warburton for new boss.


http://footballleagueworld.co.uk/fulham-targeting-mark-warburton-as-new-manager/?#0SvZ2KQlv3yHjJv8.97

[jacomo]

Fulham now targeting Mark Warburton for new boss.


http://footballleagueworld.co.uk/fulham-targeting-mark-warburton-as-new-manager/?#0SvZ2KQlv3yHjJv8.97

Following his performance at the AGM, where he was as inspiring as a regional salesman discussing his company car, I think Warburton's star might have risen as far as it ever will.

He'd be mad to turn down a fat pay packet and move back South with Fulham if gets offered it. He's proved he'll do whatever a chairman tells him, which Khan will like.

[greenginger]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-football/12023168/Mark-Warburton-targeted-by-Fulham-to-succeed-Kit-Symons.html

Making the newspapers too ! :thumbsup:

[Callum_62]

Better watch, many more rejections and Stubbs me be getting a phone call....

:greengrin

[GreenLake]

Following his performance at the AGM, where he was as inspiring as a regional salesman discussing his company car, I think Warburton's star might have risen as far as it ever will.

He'd be mad to turn down a fat pay packet and move back South with Fulham if gets offered it. He's proved he'll do whatever a chairman tells him, which Khan will like.

When he dies they will never get the coffin lid down to bury him as his foot will be wedged into it.

[GreenLake]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-football/12023168/Mark-Warburton-targeted-by-Fulham-to-succeed-Kit-Symons.html

Making the newspapers too ! :thumbsup:

I can't see this being right. He is reported as being fourth choice manager when he should never be higher than 33rd.

I hope he rejects them as it's his coupon I want to see spluttering after we win the league.

[Scorrie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-football/12023168/Mark-Warburton-targeted-by-Fulham-to-succeed-Kit-Symons.html

Making the newspapers too ! :thumbsup:

Telegraph is wrong though as The Petrofeck won't be the first trophy for The Rangers since 2012, didn't they win their first trophy when they won the Third division in 2013? A great achievement for a new team's first season in league football...

[Deansy]

Well let's hope it doesn't go away and the truth comes out ,Looks like people at the top getting nervous ,and in the interests of Sporting Integrity it's about time we heard the truth and if that involves the SFA acting against Sevco bring it on ,as am getting tired of thier continued posturing about getting back to being the biggest and best club ,back in Europe etc etc and then bleating they aren't on enough committees to wield thier influence ,Seems they are managing to do that fine without being on committees .

Wonder when the penny will eventually drop that 'getting back' to a position that was only made possible in the 1st place by an endless supply of dodgy-money, just ISN'T going to happen - especially when there's not even dodgy-money about, just a dodgy chairman/board !!

[Sergey]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-football/12023168/Mark-Warburton-targeted-by-Fulham-to-succeed-Kit-Symons.html

Making the newspapers too ! :thumbsup:

2/1 2nd favourite with Skybet. 8/1 bar 2

[3pm]

2/1 2nd favourite with Skybet. 8/1 bar 2

I'd be very surprised.

[Geo_1875]

Wonder when the penny will eventually drop that 'getting back' to a position that was only made possible in the 1st place by an endless supply of dodgy-money, just ISN'T going to happen - especially when there's not even dodgy-money about, just a dodgy chairman/board !!

And dodgy referees giving dodgy decisions and dodgy officials at SFA/SPFL turning a blind eye and dodgy agents tapping up players on their behalf. It might not be as difficult as you think.

[Jim44]

2/1 2nd favourite with Skybet. 8/1 bar 2


I'd be very surprised.

There's no chance of Warburton leaving Sevco for Fulham. Better with the circus you know.

[Ozyhibby]

There's no chance of Warburton leaving Sevco for Fulham. Better with the circus you know.

I agree and would rather they did not get any cash. They are not as good a side as us. They have very little depth to their squad. We can win this league.


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[Jack Hackett]

I agree and would rather they did not get any cash. They are not as good a side as us. They have very little depth to their squad. We can win this league.


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Positive thinking on a dreary Monday morning..... I like it :aok:

[greenginger]

Even if Warby does not leave, it would be good to get a bit of uncertainty, controversy , anger amongst the hoards.

What's the record, Sun etc got to say ? now't I would guess.

[Glesgahibby]

Any word of the herald exclusive regarding the big tax case appeal?

[Deansy]

I agree and would rather they did not get any cash. They are not as good a side as us. They have very little depth to their squad. We can win this league.


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I agree but if it was just down to footballing ability/quality/mind-set etc then yes, we could, should and can win this league - but it's the Hun and what will be done, to ensure they don't spend another season in the championship, doesn't bear thinking about. We're not just taking on them, we're taking on almost the entire rotten establishment of our game !. Come the end of this season, I can guarantee we'll have never endured such a season of 'honest mistakes', 'strange decisions', 'unfortunate events' and outright, blatant cheating !!.

And NEVER - will sticking it to the Hun be so absolutely, exquisitely and fantastically superb !

[brog]

I agree and would rather they did not get any cash. They are not as good a side as us. They have very little depth to their squad. We can win this league.


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Watching a little of their game on Sat I had the same thought. The same team & formation trots out every week. They have very few options to change things & they don't have star players on their bench. If they recruit in Jan I suspect it will be loan signings &/or free agents. I believe we have a far stronger squad, its now down to our mentality & also that of other clubs in the league when playing against Sevco, Raith this weekend is a good example.

[southern hibby]

Hopefully he will have talks and they will break down obviously The Rangers will not stand I. The way of a dream move and he will want to go after Fulham opens the bid at £25,000 and ups it to £49,999 after there 4th or 5th bid, respectfully done by Fulham, obviously.

After talks break down between him and Fulham he is left in Govan and the orcs then give him constant abuse, the board don't give him any spending money ( not that they have any) and sell a few players and he then sequels like a stuffed pig when Hibs romp the league.

If only I did football Carlesberg wouldn't get a look in for dreaming

GGTTH

[Sergey]

Warburton now odds-on (8/11) with Skybet for the Fulham gig.

Might be a goer if the lure of money and the relocation back to London suits him and his family.

[greenginger]

Warburton now odds-on (8/11) with Skybet for the Fulham gig.

Might be a goer if the lure of money and the relocation back to London suits him and his family.


And still not a chirp out of Orc media about the possible departure of the man with the magic hat.

If he does go, and Weir stays, we will no doubt learn that Warby was just the front man , the real tactician was his assistant.

[Jim44]

Warburton now odds-on (8/11) with Skybet for the Fulham gig.

Might be a goer if the lure of money and the relocation back to London suits him and his family.

Does this price actually reflect the wads of money placed on Warburton or would Skybet be dishonest enough to 'doctor' prices as a 'come on' to tempt gullible folk to splash their cash? :hmmm:

[greenginger]

Does this price actually reflect the wads of money placed on Warburton or would Skybet be dishonest enough to 'doctor' prices as a 'come on' to tempt gullible folk to splash their cash? :hmmm:


You can get better odds with Paddypower and Betfair so how would an 8/11 tempt anyone to Skybet ?

[steakbake]

There's no chance of Warburton leaving Sevco for Fulham. Better with the circus you know.

Fulham are a mess at the moment. Lots of fire directed towards Mike Rigg who is kind of a director of football, who seems to influence things. There's a reason that various managers have turned down what otherwise looks like a decent enough gig. That said, given Warburton's performance as lead puppet at the AGM last week, he doesn't appear too adverse to being someone's 'yes' man.

[Jim44]

You can get better odds with Paddypower and Betfair so how would an 8/11 tempt anyone to Skybet ?

I take your point and suppose it's quite obvious. So I take it that lots of money has been put on Warburton with Skybet and their odds have been accordingly adjusted.

[Brightside]

I take your point and suppose it's quite obvious. So I take it that lots of money has been put on Warburton with Skybet and their odds have been accordingly adjusted.

Or they are creating the hype to get more money on... normally the market is very similar with a point here or there if one firm makes a stand.

[Jim44]

Or they are creating the hype to get more money on... normally the market is very similar with a point here or there if one firm makes a stand.

Well that takes me back to my post back a bit, which greenginger disputed. :dunno:

[Brightside]

Well that takes me back to my post back a bit, which greenginger disputed. :dunno:

Some people only have accounts with one provider... they announce there has been a massive plunge from say 8 to 8/11....dafty online thinks "Oh he must be a cert" and chucks £50 on it. The amount of actual money on it will be minimal.

[ACLeith]

On SKY Sports news-
"Have you had any contact at all with any other club?"
MW - "I'm The Rangers manager"
Could have tried to avoid a straight answer a bit sharper than that.

"Our focus right now is on Rangers". How many minutes/hours/days does "right now" cover?

[Treadstone]

Appeal submitted.

[Spike Mandela]

BBC's. Sevco apologist in Chief gets the scoop surprise surprise............

Richard Wilson (@RichwilBBC)
30/11/2015 15:11
BDO have submitted their appeal against Court of Session's ruling on Rangers' use of EBTs. They are seeking leave to appeal at Supreme Court

[StevieC]

What is to be gained for BDO by submitting an appeal?
I get that Sevco have titles at stake, but not sure how it affects BDO. Shouldn't they be trying to avoid further court costs to ensure maximum return for the creditors?

[Mcpakeisgod]

And still not a chirp out of Orc media about the possible departure of the man with the magic hat.

If he does go, and Weir stays, we will no doubt learn that Warby was just the front man , the real tactician was his assistant.

That last sentence gave me a right chuckle. Could imagine it being exactly what they'd say

[CropleyWasGod]

What is to be gained for BDO by submitting an appeal?
I get that Sevco have titles at stake, but not sure how it affects BDO. Shouldn't they be trying to avoid further court costs to ensure maximum return for the creditors?

It depends who is paying for the appeal.

If it were them, I'd agree with you.

However, there has been talk that the Murray Group (or even other clubs and companies who have vested interest in the case) might pick up the tab.

EDIT... at this stage, it's just "seeking leave to appeal". It's not definitely going ahead.

[jgl07]

Warburton now odds-on (8/11) with Skybet for the Fulham gig.

Might be a goer if the lure of money and the relocation back to London suits him and his family.
His head says to stay at Rangers but his magic hat says to get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

[Jim44]

From Fulham Forum:

Rangers manager Mark Warburton dismisses Fulham link

Mark Warburton has distanced himself from the Fulham manager's job after he was installed as the bookmakers' favourite.

The Rangers boss has been heavily linked with the vacant Craven Cottage role after leading the Ibrox side to the top of the Scottish Championship.

Warburton has overseen 12 wins out of 14 and his team will move three points clear of closest challengers Hibernian if they win their game in hand at home to Dumbarton on Tuesday.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10085136/rangers-manager-mark-warburton-dismisses-fulham-link?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[greenginger]

From Fulham Forum:

Rangers manager Mark Warburton dismisses Fulham link

Mark Warburton has distanced himself from the Fulham manager's job after he was installed as the bookmakers' favourite.

The Rangers boss has been heavily linked with the vacant Craven Cottage role after leading the Ibrox side to the top of the Scottish Championship.

Warburton has overseen 12 wins out of 14 and his team will move three points clear of closest challengers Hibernian if they win their game in hand at home to Dumbarton on Tuesday.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10085136/rangers-manager-mark-warburton-dismisses-fulham-link?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


I bet the Sky Sports link was written by Jim White :greengrin

Dick Advocat now installed as second favourite after Warby.

[Ozyhibby]

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/leave-to-appeal/


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[grunt]

Roddy Forsyth in the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/12025850/Rangers-liquidators-confident-of-victory-if-EBT-appeal-goes-ahead.html


Telegraph Sport also understands that opinion amongst London legal experts holds that BDO has a strong chance of having the Court of Session verdict overturned should the matter be heard for a fourth time and that it was a certainty that the liquidators would appeal from the moment the Edinburgh decision was published.

[brog]

Roddy Forsyth in the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/12025850/Rangers-liquidators-confident-of-victory-if-EBT-appeal-goes-ahead.html

Yet another Sevco stooge! I wonder who gave Roddy that info? I think it's possible BDO are appealing on behalf of the many rather than the few, or indeed the one! Perhaps they feel some moral responsibility to represent the minor creditors who will lose out should HMRC prevail. Then again it may be as CWG says they've been dashed a considerable amount of wonga by SDM & who are BDO to turn down more money!!

[Skol]

Ronald De Boer....it wasnt the money that took me to rangers...Man U offered the same...I played for Rangers with my heart....oh, and I had a dicky knee and Rangers were offering me the same money for an extra year. Which just goes to show that it was absolutely the EBT because without it rangers could not have matched the money from Man U or offered an extra year

[Ozyhibby]

The longer this lasts, the more BDO earn in fees. That will be the number 1 motivation right there.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/the-never-ending-story/

Well worth a read from the blogger who first brought this to everyone's attention.


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[grunt]

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/the-never-ending-story/

Well worth a read from the blogger who first brought this to everyone's attention.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThis should be required reading for every Scottish journalist and football pundit.
I had the misfortune to catch part of Sportsound tonight where they were wittering on about whether EBTs were illegal or not
After all this time the media in this country should have a far better, more informed view of the situation than they do.

[Ozyhibby]

This should be required reading for every Scottish journalist and football pundit.
I had the misfortune to catch part of Sportsound tonight where they were wittering on about whether EBTs were illegal or not
After all this time the media in this country should have a far better, more informed view of the situation than they do.

They've read it. They choose to play dumb.


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[brog]

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/the-never-ending-story/

Well worth a read from the blogger who first brought this to everyone's attention.


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That is superb. Everyone involved in the management & administration of Scottish Football should be required to read it. They should then either provide a satisfactory rebuttal to the points raised or provide an explanation as to why they colluded in failing to apply their own rules & regulations to the entity which was Rangers. Shameful!

[Sergey]

That is superb. Everyone involved in the management & administration of Scottish Football should be required to read it. They should then either provide a satisfactory rebuttal to the points raised or provide an explanation as to why they colluded in failing to apply their own rules & regulations to the entity which was Rangers. Shameful!

Agreed. Bang-on every point.

I fed them some information a few years ago when CW got involved as I had an avenue for info. The blogger(s) are actually based in Hong Kong and working from afar. Not that that's stopped them nailing the info.

The whispers I supplied will undoubtedly come out in the forthcoming trial - but I'm glad that the little snippets that I provided them helped to piece together the bigger jigsaw.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yet another Sevco stooge! I wonder who gave Roddy that info? I think it's possible BDO are appealing on behalf of the many rather than the few, or indeed the one! Perhaps they feel some moral responsibility to represent the minor creditors who will lose out should HMRC prevail. Then again it may be as CWG says they've been dashed a considerable amount of wonga by SDM & who are BDO to turn down more money!!
Another possibility is that the creditors committee.....I think it's called....have instructed BDO to appeal. The smaller creditors, in whose interests the appeal is, may outvote HMRC on that committee.

If that's the case, I think BDO's hands are tied.

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[Kaff]

Agreed. Bang-on every point.

I fed them some information a few years ago when CW got involved as I had an avenue for info. The blogger(s) are actually based in Hong Kong and working from afar. Not that that's stopped them nailing the info.

The whispers I supplied will undoubtedly come out in the forthcoming trial - but I'm glad that the little snippets that I provided them helped to piece together the bigger jigsaw.

Here we go....

[Ozyhibby]

Here we go....

[emoji23]


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[Onceinawhile]

Another possibility is that the creditors committee.....I think it's called....have instructed BDO to appeal. The smaller creditors, in whose interests the appeal is, may outvote HMRC on that committee.

If that's the case, I think BDO's hands are tied.

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Do you not think that BDO will be under pressure from their own clients? Many of whom may well have EBTs or have implemented them on BDO's advice?

If the decision is left to stand that puts BDO's clients in a tricky position and therefore BDO as well.

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you not think that BDO will be under pressure from their own clients? Many of whom may well have EBTs or have implemented them on BDO's advice?

If the decision is left to stand that puts BDO's clients in a tricky position and therefore BDO as well.
The liquidator, which is a sole or joint appointment, has responsibility to the Court first, the creditors second and his employer third . If any client of the firm puts that kind of pressure on, they should be told to bolt.

As D&P have shown, no client is worth that kind of hassle. And if the joint liquidators have succumbed to that kind of pressure, they deserve the same kind of kicking.

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[greenginger]

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/12/01/report-explains-why-rangers-remain-concerned-warburton-could-mak/?

Still seems to be a bit of mileage in the Warby to Fulham story.

Who knows what he has been told about his January transfer business.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/12/01/report-explains-why-rangers-remain-concerned-warburton-could-mak/?

Still seems to be a bit of mileage in the Warby to Fulham story.

Who knows what he has been told about his January transfer business.

I see the story has finally emerged in Scottish paper-land ...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/rangers/6775562/Rangers-fear-Fulham-will-pinch-Mark-Warburton.html

[matty_f]

I see the story has finally emerged in Scottish paper-land ...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/rangers/6775562/Rangers-fear-Fulham-will-pinch-Mark-Warburton.html

Warburton always sounds like he's speaking from a manual. He says a lot without saying anything of any value.

[Bostonhibby]

I see the story has finally emerged in Scottish paper-land ...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/rangers/6775562/Rangers-fear-Fulham-will-pinch-Mark-Warburton.html

Bound to come to Real Madrids' attention as well now that the Scottish sun are on the case about a week after it appeared on here :greengrin

[Treadstone]

Warburton always sounds like he's speaking from a manual. He says a lot without saying anything of any value.

He's the generic email of football management.

[Ozyhibby]

He's the generic email of football management.

Respectfully though.


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[Ozyhibby]

For anyone who didn't click the link last night, didn't get time to read it, wonders what this thread is all about, thinks we should just move on etc etc.
Please just read this.
https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/the-never-ending-story/



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[grunt]

For anyone who didn't click the link last night, didn't get time to read it, wonders what this thread is all about, thinks we should just move on etc etc.
Please just read this.
https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/the-never-ending-story/



Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat blog post had 10,000 unique hits last night, apparently. One of them was mine.

[Ozyhibby]

That blog post had 10,000 unique hits last night, apparently. One of them was mine.

It deserves and will get a lot more over the next few days. He/she has been sorely missed over the last few years.


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[Platinum Scotty]

For anyone who didn't click the link last night, didn't get time to read it, wonders what this thread is all about, thinks we should just move on etc etc.
Please just read this.
https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/the-never-ending-story/



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

excellent piece, very well written!

[Treadstone]

It deserves and will get a lot more over the next few days. He/she has been sorely missed over the last few years.


I would also recommend clicking the Discounted Option link in the piece AKA the wee tax case.

[Spike Mandela]

Another possibility is that the creditors committee.....I think it's called....have instructed BDO to appeal. The smaller creditors, in whose interests the appeal is, may outvote HMRC on that committee.

If that's the case, I think BDO's hands are tied.

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James Doleman (@jamesdoleman)
30/11/2015 16:05
Of 49 Scottish submissions to appeal to the Supreme Court in last 6 years, 3 were accepted. twitter.com/ScotlandSky/st…

[Ozyhibby]

James Doleman (@jamesdoleman)
30/11/2015 16:05
Of 49 Scottish submissions to appeal to the Supreme Court in last 6 years, 3 were accepted. twitter.com/ScotlandSky/st…

And none of those three were unanimous decisions like the Rangers tax case.


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[Ozyhibby]

Resolution 10 failed

http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/agm-result-notice/


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[jacomo]

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/the-never-ending-story/

Well worth a read from the blogger who first brought this to everyone's attention.


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The argument about tax avoidance vs tax evasion can continue.

What is beyond doubt is that Rangers did not disclose full details of their player contracts to the football authorities - a requirement of every club that wishes to compete in Scotland.

Therefore, their players were not properly registered. Bye bye titles win during that period.

[jacomo]

I see the story has finally emerged in Scottish paper-land ...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/rangers/6775562/Rangers-fear-Fulham-will-pinch-Mark-Warburton.html

Reads like a come-and-get-me plea to me.

As I said a couple of days ago, Warburton comes across as a deeply mediocre individual who seems to think he's some kind of leadership guru. I bet he's watched all Terry Buthcher's seminars.

He'd be mad not to take the money on offer now.

Davie Weir to step up in his place?

[Jim44]

Resolution 10 failed

http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/agm-result-notice/


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The % of votes for and against cast for each resolution are almost the same yet resolution 10 was not carried. How come?

[grunt]

The % of votes for and against cast for each resolution are almost the same yet resolution 10 was not carried How come?That one needed 75% in favour to carry it.

[PatHead]

The % of votes for and against cast for each resolution are almost the same yet resolution 10 was not carried. How come?

Did it not need 75%?

[Jim44]

That one needed 75% in favour to carry it.


Did it not need 75%?

Gotcha.

[Kato]

The argument about tax avoidance vs tax evasion can continue.

What is beyond doubt is that Rangers did not disclose full details of their player contracts to the football authorities - a requirement of every club that wishes to compete in Scotland.

Therefore, their players were not properly registered. Bye bye titles win during that period.

That's the bottom line.

If they had nothing to hide why did they, errm, hide stuff?

[hibs0666]

Reads like a come-and-get-me plea to me.

As I said a couple of days ago, Warburton comes across as a deeply mediocre individual who seems to think he's some kind of leadership guru. I bet he's watched all Terry Buthcher's seminars.

He'd be mad not to take the money on offer now.

Davie Weir to step up in his place?

Warby is 13/8 favourite, and you can get 6/1 the field.

After the Allan saga, surely the huns wouldn't stand in the way of a guy trying to better himself?

[hibs0666]

The argument about tax avoidance vs tax evasion can continue.

What is beyond doubt is that Rangers did not disclose full details of their player contracts to the football authorities - a requirement of every club that wishes to compete in Scotland.

Therefore, their players were not properly registered. Bye bye titles win during that period.

Like it or not, the side letter issue has already been addressed and the huns were fined accordingly.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Like it or not, the side letter issue has already been addressed and the huns were fined accordingly.

Addressed by HMRC?

[hibs0666]

addressed by hmrc?

HMRC and SFA.

[ehf]

Resolution 10 failed

http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/agm-result-notice/




Excellent. Chuck Green appealing the decision on liability for his costs as well, so hopefully turning into a bad day for Sevco...

[grunt]

Like it or not, the side letter issue has already been addressed and the huns were fined accordingly.Are you talking here about the LNS inquiry?

[grunt]

HMRC and SFA.Not sure what you mean about it having been addressed by the HMRC. This was the subject of the Big Tax Case which HMRC are currently winning.

[Ozyhibby]

Are you talking here about the LNS inquiry?

If he is then they have not. A number of them were withheld from LNS and the SFA misdirected LNS on what constituted a registration breach.


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[jacomo]

Like it or not, the side letter issue has already been addressed and the huns were fined accordingly.

1. They've not paid the fine.
2. LNS was possibly deceived over the nature of the side-letters, denied certain evidence that led his inquiry to make erroneous conclusions.

The more recent 'common sense' judgement in Big a Tax Case is that these side letters formed a part of the players' employment contracts.

Not dealt with, by a very long way.

[Ozyhibby]

1. They've not paid the fine.
2. LNS was possibly deceived over the nature of the side-letters, denied certain evidence that led his inquiry to make erroneous conclusions.

The more recent 'common sense' judgement in Big a Tax Case is that these side letters formed a part of the players' employment contracts.

Not dealt with, by a very long way.

The point I was trying to make but you have made it so much better. [emoji3]


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[Smartie]

What does the failure of "resolution 10" mean?

[Ozyhibby]

What does the failure of "resolution 10" mean?

It means they can't issue new shares and the can't convert the soft loans they need to equity.


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[Ozyhibby]

http://thecelticblog.com/2015/12/blogs/sevco-board-fails-in-share-bid-as-king-nears-his-court-date


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[Liberal Hibby]

It means they can't issue new shares and the can't convert the soft loans they need to equity.


Ouch!

[Jack Hackett]

Bound to come to Real Madrids' attention as well now that the Scottish sun are on the case about a week after it appeared on here :greengrin

I note that the article claims that they broke the story 'last month'.....so sometime prior to today then :rolleyes:

[hibs0666]

1. They've not paid the fine.
2. LNS was possibly deceived over the nature of the side-letters, denied certain evidence that led his inquiry to make erroneous conclusions.

The more recent 'common sense' judgement in Big a Tax Case is that these side letters formed a part of the players' employment contracts.

Not dealt with, by a very long way.

1. True
2a. Has LNS acknowledged that he was deceived on the side letter issue?
2b. Has LNS asserted that his previous findings on the side letters are now null and void?

[hibs0666]

It means they can't issue new shares and the can't convert the soft loans they need to equity.


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I think that's wrong. They can indeed issue new shares but only to existing shareholders based on their existing holdings.

[grunt]

2a. Has LNS acknowledged that he was deceived on the side letter issue?
2b. Has LNS asserted that his previous findings on the side letters are now null and void?
As far as we know he hasn't commented on the question. neither would he, until he's discussed it with the football authorities. This whole situation is hugely embarrassing for the SPFL and the SFA, and my guess is they don't know what to do. I'd further guess that they are hoping that BDO are successful in obtaining leave to appeal the FTT verdict, because if this happens they can carry on with their heads in the sand for another year. On that topic at least. But there's a load of other issues coming up they will need to address.

[hibs0666]

As far as we know he hasn't commented on the question. neither would he, until he's discussed it with the football authorities. This whole situation is hugely embarrassing for the SPFL and the SFA, and my guess is they don't know what to do. I'd further guess that they are hoping that BDO are successful in obtaining leave to appeal the FTT verdict, because if this happens they can carry on with their heads in the sand for another year. On that topic at least. But there's a load of other issues coming up they will need to address.

OK, so there is no point at this stage in saying that the side letter issue has not been addressed when it has. As you say it will will not be re-visited unless and until all parties acknowledge that there is a material change in circumstances, and there is nothing to indicate that those parties believe that to be the case.

[jacomo]

1. True
2a. Has LNS acknowledged that he was deceived on the side letter issue?
2b. Has LNS asserted that his previous findings on the side letters are now null and void?

2a and 2b

I suspect you already know the answers to these questions and are just being a smart****.

What's your agenda?

[southsider]

BDO will only be granted leave to appeal the Big Tax Case if things have changed. Very few are granted each year. Anyway setting aside the legal side of things what Murray did was morally indefensible when our pensioners were freezing to death for lack of heating, when the NHS were short of funds and when our brave troops were being killed or injured through lack of equipment Murray thinks its a good idea to pay players £20,000 £30,000 or £40,000 A WEEK and pay no income tax. He should be hounded out of our country

[hibs0666]

2a and 2b

I suspect you already know the answers to these questions and are just being a smart****.

What's your agenda?

OK, you don't want to debate your assertions. No problems, we'll park it there. And less of the smartarse ****** OK?

[Jim44]

While they are hardly suicidal, the muppets on FF are having a bad day. They're having to persuade themselves that the Warburton to Fulham rumour is a minor distraction and the failed resolution 10 hasn't set the heather alight either. What with us snapping at their heels and a wee banana skin in the form of Dumbarton tonight, all is far from hunky dory in Hunland. :greengrin

[Smartie]

While they are hardly suicidal, the muppets on FF are having a bad day. They're having to persuade themselves that the Warburton to Fulham rumour is a minor distraction and the failed resolution 10 hasn't set the heather alight either. What with us snapping at their heels and a wee banana skin in the form of Dumbarton tonight, all is far from hunky dory in Hunland. :greengrin

I fully expect them to whip Dumbarton tonight tbh and that will settle them all down a fair bit.

It would have been nice if it had been a trip to Falkirk or the likes tonight - that would really have had them squeaking.

[grunt]

OK, so there is no point at this stage in saying that the side letter issue has not been addressed when it has. As you say it will will not be re-visited unless and until all parties acknowledge that there is a material change in circumstances, and there is nothing to indicate that those parties believe that to be the case.Well the point of a discussion forum is to discuss things, and that's what we're doing. So personally I think there is a point in saying that the side letter issue has not been addressed, because that's my view.

If we left everything to the authorities for them to decide what to do, then Rangers would have gone straight into the premier league when they were formed, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. So I think debating the justice of the situation, the sporting integrity if you will, is important so that those "in charge" of our game know how we all feel.

[jacomo]

OK, you don't want to debate your assertions. No problems, we'll park it there. And less of the smartarse ****** OK?

I'll debate all day.

How about you do the same, instead of trying to score points?

[Jim44]

I fully expect them to whip Dumbarton tonight tbh and that will settle them all down a fair bit.

It would have been nice if it had been a trip to Falkirk or the likes tonight - that would really have had them squeaking.

I think you're probably correct about tonight, but you never know, the horrendous conditions could be a great leveller.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you're probably correct about tonight, but you never know, the horrendous conditions could be a great leveller.

Hopefully they had a nice heavy pitch last Saturday, again tonight and are nicely softened up to lose points at Raith on Saturday coming.

[JeMeSouviens]

OK, so there is no point at this stage in saying that the side letter issue has not been addressed when it has. As you say it will will not be re-visited unless and until all parties acknowledge that there is a material change in circumstances, and there is nothing to indicate that those parties believe that to be the case.

I don't really understand the Hun apologist line (except for from Huns obv). How doesn't it help Hibs to have Huns in turmoil?

[GreenLake]

I note that the article claims that they broke the story 'last month'.....so sometime prior to today then :rolleyes:

I stopped reading that rag in the last millennium. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I think that's wrong. They can indeed issue new shares but only to existing shareholders based on their existing holdings.

The resolution says... "the allotment of equity securities in connection with or pursuant to an offer of, or invitation to holders of equity securities and other persons entitled to participate in proportion (as nearly as practicable) to their then holdings of equity securities".

I read that as....Had it passed, then they would have been entitled to issue shares to existing shareholders based on their existing shareholdings (eg the soft lenders). However, it failed.

Lawyers on here to translate, please? :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

I note that the article claims that they broke the story 'last month'.....so sometime prior to today then :rolleyes:

Journalistic license? or maybe stayed up late especially to launch this "scoop"

[Glesgahibby]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4514550]Another possibility is that the creditors committee.....I think it's called....have instructed BDO to appeal. The smaller creditors, in whose interests the appeal is, may outvote HMRC on that committee.

If that's the case, I think BDO's hands are tied.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE
to be honest,if it goes to the Supreme Court and HMRC win again!
then it makes easier to argue for "title/trophy stripping :wink:

[hibs0666]

I don't really understand the Hun apologist line (except for from Huns obv). How doesn't it help Hibs to have Huns in turmoil?

It's hardly a hun apologist line to state that LNS dealt with the side letter issue - that is just a statement of fact and the hun is in turmoil irrespective of the issue of side letters.

At what point do we recognise that the very future of Scottish football as a full-time professional sport is at serious risk, and that is a far far greater issue than deleting a few hun references here and there?

[hibs0666]

The resolution says... "the allotment of equity securities in connection with or pursuant to an offer of, or invitation to holders of equity securities and other persons entitled to participate in proportion (as nearly as practicable) to their then holdings of equity securities".

I read that as....Had it passed, then they would have been entitled to issue shares to existing shareholders based on their existing shareholdings (eg the soft lenders). However, it failed.

Lawyers on here to translate, please? :greengrin

I don't think we can afford that :)

[Bostonhibby]

Warby is 13/8 favourite, and you can get 6/1 the field.

After the Allan saga, surely the huns wouldn't stand in the way of a guy trying to better himself?

:agree: Remember Fulham winning a major trophy, the FA cup around 1975, and they have consistently appeared at a higher league level than the rangers so if you listen to what they all had to say about natural progression they should be delighted the warbler is getting a chance at a higher level, and much nearer to London where general bull****ting goes a long way.............

[lapsedhibee]

It's hardly a hun apologist line to state that LNS dealt with the side letter issue - that is just a statement of fact and the hun is in turmoil irrespective of the issue of side letters.

At what point do we recognise that the very future of Scottish football as a full-time professional sport is at serious risk, and that is a far far greater issue than deleting a few hun references here and there?

Armageddonism is certainly a hun apologist line.

[Kavinho]

It's hardly a hun apologist line to state that LNS dealt with the side letter issue - that is just a statement of fact and the hun is in turmoil irrespective of the issue of side letters.

At what point do we recognise that the very future of Scottish football as a full-time professional sport is at serious risk, and that is a far far greater issue than deleting a few hun references here and there?


When the foundations of the decision is questionable, it's fair to say that the issue has not yet been put to bed, despite the governing body's attempts to close it out.


Absolutely, the future of the game is at risk, which is surely why it's in everyone's interests to continue to ask the questions and make sure there is no watergate styled cover ups...



It takes a lot of digging to unearth a truth that those in high places want to remain buried.....


.... Which brings me to The Curse of Oak Island...
Anyone watching it?! :hi:

[Glesgahibby]

1. True
2a. Has LNS acknowledged that he was deceived on the side letter issue?
2b. Has LNS asserted that his previous findings on the side letters are now null and void?
Does it matter what LNS thinks now?
at the end of the day,his report is not worth anything anymore!
If/when/maybees aye or naw this goes to the highest court in the land,then who could argue with its findings?
two, let me repeat"two" that's 2% of appeals to the Supreme Court over a one year period are overturned :greengrin

[Brunswickbill]

The resolution says... "the allotment of equity securities in connection with or pursuant to an offer of, or invitation to holders of equity securities and other persons entitled to participate in proportion (as nearly as practicable) to their then holdings of equity securities".

I read that as....Had it passed, then they would have been entitled to issue shares to existing shareholders based on their existing shareholdings (eg the soft lenders). However, it failed.

Lawyers on here to translate, please? :greengrin

According to STV they can convert loans to shares for existing shareholders up to a limit but "The move will also prevent soft loans currently provided to the company from numerous investors from being converted into shares as planned."

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/1334389-rangers-lose-agm-vote-to-raise-cash-through-issue-of-new-shares/

[CentreLine]

When the foundations of the decision is questionable, it's fair to say that the issue has not yet been put to bed, despite the governing body's attempts to close it out.


Absolutely, the future of the game is at risk, which is surely why it's in everyone's interests to continue to ask the questions and make sure there is no watergate styled cover ups...



It takes a lot of digging to unearth a truth that those in high places want to remain buried.....


.... Which brings me to The Curse of Oak Island...
Anyone watching it?! :hi:

Yep. Good entertainment if a little slow. But like this saga really.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's hardly a hun apologist line to state that LNS dealt with the side letter issue - that is just a statement of fact and the hun is in turmoil irrespective of the issue of side letters.

At what point do we recognise that the very future of Scottish football as a full-time professional sport is at serious risk, and that is a far far greater issue than deleting a few hun references here and there?

Since the Old Huns went pop the only club that's been in trouble is the Yams, for completely different reasons. Without the Huns, Aberdeen and Hearts are starting to fill the vacuum (and we could join them if our recovery continues), St Johnstone, St Mirren, Aberdeen and ICT have all won trophies and Celtc are going backwards at a rate of knots. We're still a long way from a competitive league with a level playing field but at least we're heading in the right direction and our clubs are giving the best Scottish youth more of a platform than they've had for decades. Why we would we want a manifestation of the Huns back?

[Ozyhibby]

It's hardly a hun apologist line to state that LNS dealt with the side letter issue - that is just a statement of fact and the hun is in turmoil irrespective of the issue of side letters.

At what point do we recognise that the very future of Scottish football as a full-time professional sport is at serious risk, and that is a far far greater issue than deleting a few hun references here and there?

LNS was mislead on the application of the rules by Sandy Bryson.
How is the future of Scottish football at risk?


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[Ozyhibby]

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/sevco-dark-places-alien-space-bats/


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[Brunswickbill]

Going back to the Sports Direct Loan.......I am not convinced that Sevco are in default. I can’t find any reference to there being a time limit. If you look at the statement issued by SD/MA to support their resolution put to the General meeting in June

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/mike-ashley-issues-statement-outlining-5857906

it states “RFC is fully entitled at any time to repay the current £5 million loan to Sports Direct and revert back to the prior shareholding in Rangers Retail of 51% RFC and 49% Sports Direct.” It doesn’t refer to any time limit.
Similarly the expulsion of Lambias and Leach, MA/SD’s nominees on the board, doesn’t appear to be a matter which can be challenged in the court.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/11460425/Rangers-news-Derek-Llambias-and-Barry-Leach-remain-executives-despite-Dave-King-removing-them-as-directors.html


The above article states that Lambias offered his and Leach’s resignation if they got a year’s salary. The request was refused and the article goes on “the new board is proceeding with delicacy and precision in respect of contractual matters, wary of triggering unnecessary and potentially expensive legal cases.”

MA/SD have shown that they are more than willing to go to court to secure their interests and if there were a legal way of securing to repayment of the £5m I’m sure that they would have done so.
It looks to me that MA/SD must have thought that Christmas came early when they managed to get security on Murray Park, Edmiston House and Albion Street car park, 2 board members, control of and 75% of profit from Rangers retail and his pals appointed as CEO and Finance Director; effectively running the club for £5m. But when King and his cronies made the hostile takeover a much of his control was usurped. MA/SD effectively found themselves funding the new board with the £5m loan. MA/SD asked for their money back saying “Sports Direct is not a bank” but the board refused. The meeting called in June was his nice way of saying “I’m serious.”

King perhaps thought that he was in a good bargaining position as clearly Sevco appear to have been in control of the £5m loan and its repayment. MA/SD found other means to exert pressure with their contempt of court action on King and the F&P action with the SFA. It seems to me that what MA/SD want is their money back and that may well be the primary reason for the court actions, also a lesson not to play silly bu**ers with him and his company.

If this is the case what is likely to happen? I appears to me that there are at least 2 broad scenarios. One based on MA/SD making it personal and the other making a business based decision.

Scenario 1. MA/SD take King and the SFA all the way through the courts. Who knows what the results of the court action will be. Especially now that SEVCO want to repay the loan. If King and the SFA win, MA/SD will look pretty foolish. If MA/SD win they will do in the man who is seen by many of the blue nose persuasion as a white night and may well put the SFA/SPFL into disarray. But they will be left with a retail contract which can’t be producing the expected returns and an impact on the SD brand in Scotland. Also a football establishment that aren’t too happy with him. Potentially a lose-lose situation.

Scenario 2. MA/SD take the option to settle and withdraw the court actions (assuming he can do this). King’s statement at the AGM re the repaying of the loan looks like this is what SEVCO aim to do. MA/SD are in a pretty strong bargaining position and may be able to secure a settlement that is beneficial to them. If they call off the hounds they can get their money back (assuming that SEVCO actually have the readies) and possibly secure a settlement to their advantage with SEVCO encouraging the fans to buy their shirts from SD for Christmas. Under this scenario they shake hands and pretend that everything is hunky dory.
Clearly many more options are available. MA/SD have made it clear that they won’t be pushed around but we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that MA is first and foremost a businessman who will want to protect his companies interests and SD acts with a business head.

Interesting to see other peoples’ take on this.:confused:

Oh, forgot to say, under both scenarios Hibs win the league and RIFC have to face the play offs.:agree:

[jgl07]

:agree: Remember Fulham winning a major trophy, the FA cup around 1975, and they have consistently appeared at a higher league level than the rangers so if you listen to what they all had to say about natural progression they should be delighted the warbler is getting a chance at a higher level, and much nearer to London where general bull****ting goes a long way.............
I don't think Fulham have ever won the FA Cup or any major trophy?

They were beaten in the 1975 final by West Ham.

[Keith_M]

I don't think Fulham have ever won the FA Cup or any major trophy?

They were beaten in the 1975 final by West Ham.


Fulham have never won the English League, FA Cup or League Cup.

[Bostonhibby]

I don't think Fulham have ever won the FA Cup or any major trophy?

They were beaten in the 1975 final by West Ham.

Got me there, but I am going down in a blaze of glory by suggesting that getting up from the Championship to the EPL is a bigger achievement than anything the new boys have ever achieved. As was qualifying for Europe via the fair play spot :na na:

[lapsedhibee]

I don't think Fulham have ever won the FA Cup or any major trophy?

They were beaten in the 1975 final by West Ham.

Also beaten in a European final (Europa/Yoofa/whatever) relatively recently (more recently than The The Huns were, I think).

[Keith_M]

Also beaten in a European final (Europa/Yoofa/whatever) relatively recently (more recently than The The Huns were, I think).


That Intertoto thing?

[hibs0666]

Armageddonism is certainly a hun apologist line.

Jesus H. Have a look at what is happening in Scottish football and paint me the positives please.

Deary me.

[Topographic Hibby]

That Intertoto thing?No, lost the 2010 Europa League final to Atletico Madrid, after extra time, in Hamburg.

The city of Hamburg was not kicked into oblivion by blootered losing supporters and the fine police officers of the host city were not treated like easy targets by marauding fans in Union Flags singing about Ulster.

Fulham sounds like a fine place Warby, go for it.

[hibs0666]

LNS was mislead on the application of the rules by Sandy Bryson.
How is the future of Scottish football at risk?


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The future of Scottish football is at risk because we exhibit paralysis by analysis.

People seem delighted the longer that this turmoil continues. At a time when the game desperately needs investment on-going turmoil is precisely the last thing that we need.

[jgl07]

Fulham had a sustained spell in the English top division in the 1950s through to the 1969s. They used to have a flag for all First Division clubs around the stadium. When they were relegated to the old Second Division they decided not to put the other flags up as they were only be founding to be there a short time.

This was a good decision as they were soon relegated to Division Three!

[Keith_M]

The future of Scottish football is at risk because we exhibit paralysis by analysis.

People seem delighted the longer that this turmoil continues. At a time when the game desperately needs investment on-going turmoil is precisely the last thing that we need.


Apologies if I've picked you up wrong but are you equating the desire to see (The) Rangers get their just Desserts with the demise of Scootish Football?

[Keith_M]

No, lost the 2010 Europa League final to Atletico Madrid, after extra time, in Hamburg.

....


Cheers.

[Spike Mandela]

The future of Scottish football is at risk because we exhibit paralysis by analysis.

People seem delighted the longer that this turmoil continues. At a time when the game desperately needs investment on-going turmoil is precisely the last thing that we need.

Ach at least you've got a Petrofac cup final to look forward to.

[steakbake]

Jesus H. Have a look at what is happening in Scottish football and paint me the positives please.

Deary me.

Well, outside of the "O"F, attendance generally is up. Several clubs reporting far healthier financial positions despite the loss of the apparent blue pound.

Downsides: the game is run by a cabal of fools who armageddonised the product in a way Gerald Ratner could have only dreamed possible. The media covering it are soaked in a sense of Rangers' entitlement meaning people who want at least a counterbalance have to seek the views of bloggers online. We've also not qualified for a major tournament since 98 but I'd gladly blame that on the rise of the OF duopoly and of course, all those players who Mr Black (cough David Murray) said he wouldn't otherwise have got in creating a disincentive to be patient with bringing through youth.

Despite sharing a league with them, I've not missed Rangers at all, least of all their disgraceful fans.

[jabis]

The future of Scottish football is at risk because we exhibit paralysis by analysis.

People seem delighted the longer that this turmoil continues. At a time when the game desperately needs investment on-going turmoil is precisely the last thing that we need.

Well said sir,the sooner the rangers or servo get booted out,the better for Scottish football!

[hibs0666]

Apologies if I've picked you up wrong but are you equating the desire to see (The) Rangers get their just Desserts with the demise of Scootish Football?

Rangers were liquidated. How many more just desserts do you want?

[hibs0666]

Ach at least you've got a Petrofac cup final to look forward to.

Ho ho.

[HFC 0-7]

Rangers were liquidated. How many more just desserts do you want?

They were booted out for being put into administration, then liquidation. They still have to face the consequences of the side letters. IMO, the recent ruling on the payments being liable to tax result in them being a form of salary. If I remember right LNS didnt class these as a salary. LNS judgement was based on an understanding of what those payments were at the time. That has changed now. LNS also said that they didnt gain a competitive advantage from this, the recent ruling would change the complexion of that.

Rangers deserve the punishment for the rules they broke, in the same manner other clubs have been for lesser offences. If this is creating a bad image for scottish football, in particular the SFA and SPFL then so be it. Hopefully this will be a wake up call and they will start running things properly in the future.

Even if we brush their past issues under the carpet, Rangers are still causing an embarrassment to Scottish football. the second largest club in scotland, after liquidation, still not learning from their mistakes by spending cash they dont have in their pursuit of getting back to the top. Rangers deserve to be punished.

[hibs0666]

Well, outside of the "O"F, attendance generally is up. Several clubs reporting far healthier financial positions despite the loss of the apparent blue pound.

Nope, that is not the case with attendances I'm afraid, and the only reason that our clubs are in a healthier financial position is because of the huge levels of indebtedness that has been written off or otherwise shed by pretty much every club bar the tims and Aberdeen.


Downsides: the game is run by a cabal of fools who armageddonised the product in a way Gerald Ratner could have only dreamed possible. The media covering it are soaked in a sense of Rangers' entitlement meaning people who want at least a counterbalance have to seek the views of bloggers online. We've also not qualified for a major tournament since 98 but I'd gladly blame that on the rise of the OF duopoly and of course, all those players who Mr Black (cough David Murray) said he wouldn't otherwise have got in creating a disincentive to be patient with bringing through youth.

These are all symptoms of a much wider malaise. Slowly but surely the game is dying up here yet the key thing most people care about - above all else - is to see a dead football club get another kicking.

[hibs0666]

They were booted out for being put into administration, then liquidation. They still have to face the consequences of the side letters. IMO, the recent ruling on the payments being liable to tax result in them being a form of salary. If I remember right LNS didnt class these as a salary. LNS judgement was based on an understanding of what those payments were at the time. That has changed now. LNS also said that they didnt gain a competitive advantage from this, the recent ruling would change the complexion of that.

The side letters have been ruled upon previously.


Rangers deserve the punishment for the rules they broke, in the same manner other clubs have been for lesser offences. If this is creating a bad image for scottish football, in particular the SFA and SPFL then so be it. Hopefully this will be a wake up call and they will start running things properly in the future.

The club died. What more punishment can you give?


Even if we brush their past issues under the carpet, Rangers are still causing an embarrassment to Scottish football. the second largest club in scotland, after liquidation, still not learning from their mistakes by spending cash they dont have in their pursuit of getting back to the top. Rangers deserve to be punished.

Eh, nah. You canny punish a club for being an embarrassment. :wink:

[HFC 0-7]

Nope, that is not the case with attendances I'm afraid, and the only reason that our clubs are in a healthier financial position is because of the huge levels of indebtedness that has been written off or otherwise shed by pretty much every club bar the tims and Aberdeen.



These are all symptoms of a much wider malaise. Slowly but surely the game is dying up here yet the key thing most people care about - above all else - is to see a dead football club get another kicking.

Possibly to ensure that the same club is punished properly and make sure they dont cheat again and have Scottish football as fair as possible. From the punishments that have been handed out to Rangers so far, how many do you think have made them think twice about doing similar things in the future? Just look at the amount of money they spent to get out of the third division? Having to take loans out just to survive to keep their overpriced players in the team. Loans that have massive consequences. What do you suggest? Stick Rangers into the top league no questions asked just to go back to the good old ways?? Scottish football was dying well before Rangers went into liquidation, partly because of the way Rangers conducted their finances to try and get ahead of Celtic.

[hibs0666]

Possibly to ensure that the same club is punished properly and make sure they dont cheat again and have Scottish football as fair as possible. From the punishments that have been handed out to Rangers so far, how many do you think have made them think twice about doing similar things in the future? Just look at the amount of money they spent to get out of the third division? Having to take loans out just to survive to keep their overpriced players in the team. Loans that have massive consequences. What do you suggest? Stick Rangers into the top league no questions asked just to go back to the good old ways?? Scottish football was dying well before Rangers went into liquidation, partly because of the way Rangers conducted their finances to try and get ahead of Celtic.

The club died because of its cheating, and I'm sure that the point has been taken by other clubs.

[jacomo]

The future of Scottish football is at risk because we exhibit paralysis by analysis.

People seem delighted the longer that this turmoil continues. At a time when the game desperately needs investment on-going turmoil is precisely the last thing that we need.

If you desperately need investment, Dave King is your go to man.

Oh wait, that's not quite right is it?

[bingo70]

The club died because of its cheating, and I'm sure that the point has been taken by other clubs.

I personally couldn't give a monkeys about them getting stripped of their titles, the only thing that's swaying me to care a bit more is that they're absolutely livid at the thought of losing them, that alone almost makes the whole thing worth pursuing.

I also think anything that could send them on their way to a further administration and points deduction gets my vote.

[Kavinho]

The club died because of its cheating, and I'm sure that the point has been taken by other clubs.

This issue goes beyond Rangers/theRangers, and they are bit part players (for me) now, all be it the scene of the ongoing dramas..

The way things have developed over the years shows me a level of institutionalised bias from the authorities running the game here. I want to see this all out in the open one way or another.
The LNS ruling that you can spilt a club from any tangible entity is laughable - particularly having been undermined in the tax case 'common sense' ruling.

If the LNS hearing was restricted as to what it was allowed to consider (by the governing body with an agenda), then for me it remains right to be revisiting the whole investigation. (New club/old club/holding co/whatever)

Likewise with the still confidential 5way agreement..

without transparency, and following previous failings, you have a lack of trust - Irreparable by just moving on and drawing a line.

Its not predominantly about continuing to kick Rangers (as enjoyable as that is to watch happen to your main rival for promotion) - it's about ensuring the governing bodies are fit to protect the very future of the game that you raised as being worried about.

putting these matters (as 1example - how on earth is DK considered fit and proper) in a court of law will hopefully finally show up right from wrong when it came to what the governing body was prepared to do to support one of its largest members.

[Blaster]

According to the bbc site a few mins ago Fulham going to pursue the bread man aggressively!!!!

[mca]

It Also Sounds Like The Place is Falling To Bits.. bbc radio.. :wink:

[Malthibby]

This issue goes beyond Rangers/theRangers, and they are bit part players (for me) now, all be it the scene of the ongoing dramas..

The way things have developed over the years shows me a level of institutionalised bias from the authorities running the game here. I want to see this all out in the open one way or another.
The LNS ruling that you can spilt a club from any tangible entity is laughable - particularly having been undermined in the tax case 'common sense' ruling.

If the LNS hearing was restricted as to what it was allowed to consider (by the governing body with an agenda), then for me it remains right to be revisiting the whole investigation. (New club/old club/holding co/whatever)

Likewise with the still confidential 5way agreement..

without transparency, and following previous failings, you have a lack of trust - Irreparable by just moving on and drawing a line.

Its not predominantly about continuing to kick Rangers (as enjoyable as that is to watch happen to your main rival for promotion) - it's about ensuring the governing bodies are fit to protect the very future of the game that you raised as being worried about.

putting these matters (as 1example - how on earth is DK considered fit and proper) in a court of law will hopefully finally show up right from wrong when it came to what the governing body was prepared to do to support one of its largest members.

Yup, everything we hear from The Rangers is that they want to get back to business as usual, & their media lackeys are bleating this on high. We need to know why stuff happened,
who was responsible for the stuff happpening & why so many folk want the same stuff to keep happening. Stuff 'em.
GG

[grunt]

We need to know why stuff happened, who was responsible for the stuff happpening & why so many folk want the same stuff to keep happening. Stuff 'em.
GG:greengrin Great stuff.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nope, that is not the case with attendances I'm afraid, and the only reason that our clubs are in a healthier financial position is because of the huge levels of indebtedness that has been written off or otherwise shed by pretty much every club bar the tims and Aberdeen.



These are all symptoms of a much wider malaise. Slowly but surely the game is dying up here yet the key thing most people care about - above all else - is to see a dead football club get another kicking.

Totally disagree. The game is showing signs of life. First hopes of a recovery for a very long time.

[happiehibbie]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/rangers-fans-moved-due-to-ibrox-safety-issue-1-3964010 looks like the roof is coming down on them after all !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brunswickbill]

:greengrin Great stuff.

And a Christmas stuffing from Hibs.

[Jim44]

According to the bbc site a few mins ago Fulham going to pursue the bread man aggressively!!!!

WhiIe I prefer your adverb, the report says 'actively'.

[brog]

I'm bewildered by Hibs 0666 almost obsessive defence of all things Sevco. He is the only Hibs fan I know, & that includes through this forum, peddling this line so regularly & aggressively. Now he seems to have adopted the Armageddon nonsense preached by those who are supposed to lead our game. Let's be clear here, other than the £250k fine which Sevco have not yet paid they have received no punishment. Ignoring their long term transgressions, where they lied & broke rules with impunity will only encourage them to do the same again & will leave every other club wondering why they bother to play within the rules. The real Armageddon occurs when the rule of law breaks down & self interest is the only guiding principle.

[blackpoolhibs]

Jesus H. Have a look at what is happening in Scottish football and paint me the positives please.

Deary me.

How will letting The Rangers away with what they have done make Scottish football better?

Should we just put up and shut up?

[brog]

:greengrin Great stuff.

[QUOTE=happiehibbie;4515038]http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/rangers-fans-moved-due-to-ibrox-safety-issue-1-3964010 looks like the roof is coming down on them after all !


Jeez, for once their Gorgie cousins are trendsetters! :wink:

[hibs0666]

I'm bewildered by Hibs 0666 almost obsessive defence of all things Sevco. He is the only Hibs fan I know, & that includes through this forum, peddling this line so regularly & aggressively. Now he seems to have adopted the Armageddon nonsense preached by those who are supposed to lead our game. Let's be clear here, other than the £250k fine which Sevco have not yet paid they have received no punishment. Ignoring their long term transgressions, where they lied & broke rules with impunity will only encourage them to do the same again & will leave every other club wondering why they bother to play within the rules. The real Armageddon occurs when the rule of law breaks down & self interest is the only guiding principle.

Once again...


the huns died - how much more punishment can be inflicted on a corpse?
we need to make sure the new huns pay the fine, plus interest, for breaching the regulations on disclosure of the side letters
rather than endless naval gazing, implement a new governance structure that serves to address the myriad issues that has caused our game to become an increasing irrelevance.

[hibs0666]

How will letting The Rangers away with what they have done make Scottish football better?

Should we just put up and shut up?

That club is dead - how exactly can a club that died get away with it?

[hibs0666]

Totally disagree. The game is showing signs of life. First hopes of a recovery for a very long time.

What are the biggest signs of improvement that you are seeing?

[brog]

Once again...


the huns died - how much more punishment can be inflicted on a corpse?
we need to make sure the new huns pay the fine, plus interest, for breaching the regulations on disclosure of the side letters
rather than endless naval gazing, implement a new governance structure that serves to address the myriad issues that has caused our game to become an increasing irrelevance.




I agree re your points 1 & 2 but yet again you fail to explain how ignoring repeated & long term transgressions benefits Scottish football. You also wrongly still refer to their liquidation as a punishment.

[Mr White]

What are the biggest signs of improvement that you are seeing?

The list of different teams that have won the 2 major cup competitions in the last 5 years for one. I make it 9 different sides have won silverware since 2010. The most competitive 5 year period for many decades no?

[Blaster]

WhiIe I prefer your adverb, the report says 'actively'.

It didn't originally but they have changed it now. I preferred their original effort too!

[hibs0666]

I agree re your points 1 & 2 but yet again you fail to explain how ignoring repeated & long term transgressions benefits Scottish football. You also wrongly still refer to their liquidation as a punishment.

That's the thing - I don't think they have been ignored - the side letters that everyone is getting excited about have already been dealt with, the old huns have been terminated and the new huns have been absent from top-flight football for the four seasons.

I understand the blood lust, but I do not understand the argument that the huns have not been punished. I recognise that the old huns could have been treated more harshly, but I do not understand what is to be gained by kicking them further now that it is a corpse.

[blackpoolhibs]

That club is dead - how exactly can a club that died get away with it?

They would deny that wouldn't they? You dont answer why it's such a good thing to ignore their cheating and completely ignore how the trophy's have been much more spread out over the last few years now we dont have a team cheating?

Would you prefer it was back to normal with both Glasgow bigots trying to outdo each other and the rest of us feeding off the scraps?

[hibs0666]

They would deny that wouldn't they? You dont answer why it's such a good thing to ignore their cheating and completely ignore how the trophy's have been much more spread out over the last few years now we dont have a team cheating?

Would you prefer it was back to normal with both Glasgow bigots trying to outdo each other and the rest of us feeding off the scraps?

The cheating has been dealt with already. The duopoly will more likely than not return within the next few years due to the ability of the new huns and celtic to generate income that is way in excess of the rest of scottish football combined.

[CropleyWasGod]

The cheating has been dealt with already. The duopoly will more likely than not return within the next few years due to the ability of the new huns and celtic to generate income that is way in excess of the rest of scottish football combined.

In what way?

[blackpoolhibs]

The cheating has been dealt with already. The duopoly will more likely than not return within the next few years due to the ability of the new huns and celtic to generate income that is way in excess of the rest of scottish football combined.

No its not, it's clearly still going on and it's going on because of their lies.

Burn the *******s.

[Paisley Hibby]

That club is dead - how exactly can a club that died get away with it?

But we're constantly being told by The Rangers and their fans that the club didn't die; it was the company that owned the club which died. If that's right the club WOULD be getting away with it if they got to keep all the honours they won with financial doping?

[hibs0666]

No its not, it's clearly still going on and it's going on because of their lies.

Burn the *******s.

Are you saying that the new huns are avoiding paying tax to fund players salaries that could not otherwise be afforded?

[hhibs]

I'm bewildered by Hibs 0666 almost obsessive defence of all things Sevco. He is the only Hibs fan I know, & that includes through this forum, peddling this line so regularly & aggressively. Now he seems to have adopted the Armageddon nonsense preached by those who are supposed to lead our game. Let's be clear here, other than the £250k fine which Sevco have not yet paid they have received no punishment. Ignoring their long term transgressions, where they lied & broke rules with impunity will only encourage them to do the same again & will leave every other club wondering why they bother to play within the rules. The real Armageddon occurs when the rule of law breaks down & self interest is the only guiding principle.


Have to agree with your thoughts on this ,almost as if determined to be contrary for the sake of it.No doubt a great hibee but this continued position is baffling.

[hibs0666]

But we're constantly being told by The Rangers and their fans that the club didn't die; it was the company that owned the club which died. If that's right the club WOULD be getting away with it if they got to keep all the honours they won with financial doping?

Well you have to form your own opinions on that one. I think that they are wrong, and the original club no longer exists.

[blackpoolhibs]

Are you saying that the new huns are avoiding paying tax to fund players salaries that could not otherwise be afforded?

Why would i think that?

[Mr White]

Well you have to form your own opinions on that one. I think that they are wrong, and the original club no longer exists.

Somewhat picking and choosing which bits of LNS report to accept and which to dismiss then? You seem quite happy to accept that he dealt with the side letter issue but ignore that he said they are in essence the same club?

[hibs0666]

Why would i think that?

Cos you stated that it's still going on.

[Kavinho]

Once again...


the huns died - how much more punishment can be inflicted on a corpse?
we need to make sure the new huns pay the fine, plus interest, for breaching the regulations on disclosure of the side letters
rather than endless naval gazing, implement a new governance structure that serves to address the myriad issues that has caused our game to become an increasing irrelevance.



Which is why we need to fully understand what has happened, who was responsible, and ensure it can't be repeated

[hibs0666]

Which is why we need to fully understand what has happened, who was responsible, and ensure it can't be repeated

I think we already understand enough of where the failures of oversight have occurred without the need to waste any more time and effort naval gazing.

[Kaff]

To go back to the point that the game is in 'recovery mode', there was a link put on a thread (I am useless at finding these old threads etc) from the Jambo blogger/podcast fella who is considered good value by most on here where he had the figures that every club in the top 14 (but possibly 16) Scottish clubs except Celtic and Hibs (can't remember if Rangers were included tbh) had been increasing their average attendance in the last few years.
It was not a point scoring Jambo skewed report and his findings on Hibs were reported accurately with reason, it made interesting reading as the fact Scottish football overall attendance may be down due to Old Firm problems but the game as a whole is generally healthy - surely that is more important?

Edit Ozy had put up the link, its not quite how i have related to things but generally shows a healthier picture than is spoken about in the media
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/scottish-football-learned-nothing-from-barry-hearn-1-3949710

[CropleyWasGod]

I think we already understand enough of where the failures of oversight have occurred without the need to waste any more time and effort naval gazing.

You missed my question.

How has the cheating been dealt with already?

[Smartie]

I think the way this debate has gone is sadly typical of the way the whole Rangers issue has progressed in Scotland.

Imo hibs0666 has made some fair and sensible points (and some nonsense that I totally disagree with) but is attempting to come at this from a reasonably balanced point of view. Unfortunately there is no place for perspective and balance when it comes to the Rangers debate. It is black and white, us and them and there is no middle ground. If you attempt to come at this from the middle ground you are quickly driven to one side or the other (see what happened when Alex Thomson and Stan Collymore got involved). Poor hibs0666 comes at this from a sightly different angle and is castigated and called a hun - in this regard we are no better than the Rangers lot.

It would be wrong for Scottish football to spend the next 10 years bickering over title stripping. Whether titles are stripped or not, the past 15 years or so will go down as the most inglorious in Scottish football history as dubious clubs have made a mockery of it. Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Gretna and many more - many examples of clubs not running themselves, spending money they didn't have and gaining an unfair advantage. Most of the trophies won have been under dubious conditions and are tainted, even if the clubs fight tooth and nail to hang onto them. What value do those trophies really have?

We need to move on. The Rangers mindset makes that impossible so we're stuck and I don't know how we'll progress on that front. The most important thing is finding out the involvement of the Campbell Ogilvies of this world, the deals between Rangers and the SFA and we need to clean up our governing bodies big time. We need to get strict penalties for financial impropriety that will prove an adequate deterrent for clubs of the moral standing of Rangers and Hearts so we can play our football confident that we have a level playing field in future.

We need to bust the myth that Scotland can't survive without a club whose stadium is falling apart at the seams, are never out of court, need £2.5 million to finish the season whilst having 4x the playing budget of their nearest rivals, have fans who are immune to strict laws on sectarian chanting and don't have any concept that anything they have done might have been in any way wrong.

But there needs to be a shift from those who are not fans of Rangers too. The constant bloodlust is not helpful and in many ways legitimises the totally unacceptably inflexible viewpoint that those on the Rangers side choose to take.

[Radium]

That's the thing - I don't think they have been ignored - the side letters that everyone is getting excited about has already been dealt with, the old huns have been terminated and the new huns have been absent from top-flight football for the four seasons.

I understand the blood lust, but I do not understand the argument that the huns have not been punished. I recognise that the old huns could have been treated more harshly, but I do not understand what is to be gained by kicking it further now that it is a corpse.

The point that is not clear at this moment is, what deals were made in the background by the SFA/ SPL [as it was] to manage the TRFC situation.

I see some of your point, but until we understand why an SFA employee told LNS that the players were properly registered, even though the side letters were not disclosed, I for one will not see the situation re the titles as closed. Personally I would rather see the titles voided and the medals left with the players [because I do not agree with the evidence provided to LNS]

That RFC payed for the arrogance of their board is clear, they were liquidated and allowed re-entry to the league without 3 years of accounts. Not great, but for a club with no debt that can generate 30k season tickets it should have been a blip.

The refusal to pay the LNS fine grates with many people [me included] but the pantomime at TRFC is just a sideshow.

The SFA / SPFL are the guardians of Scottish Football, but they are not public bodies and are not accountable to fans - as Doncaster put it, the SPFL is a trade federation. Look at the simple mistakes they make around scheduling of games - the play-off final is the day after the Scottish Cup final next year [again] - they always put the cash in front of the fans. The SFA can't even organise a cup draw at a time that is relevant to fans [and is only available live on a subscription service]. What we need to know is what have Reagan and Doncaster done to smooth the way back for TRFC.

If t'internet is to be believed, Petrie and Lawell voted against the GASL as a fit and proper person - this will no doubt be disclosed at one of the up and coming sideshows. Both should be congratulated, if true, for making a blindingly obvious decision, but what about the rest?

So to the bloodlust. In a staightforward sense, had TRFC paid their debts and simply got on with using their substantial financial clout [in terms of the Scottish game] to get themselves back towards the top of the game in Scotland there is little that could have been thrown at the new board. That they seem to have been in cohoots with those running the game in Scotland is the bit that gets to me [secret 5-way agreements]. Pernicious is probably the better word for describing the current state of affairs, with little clarity likely till the various court cases and appeals have run their course.

So at the moment I have my metaphorical popcorn on the table and am waiting for the main feature.

Ramble over. :soapbox:

[greenginger]

Richard Wilson discussing the possible departure of Warby.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34980312

" there has been no official contact between Rangers and Fulham ....... Yet ! "

Do you think the BBC lamb muncher could be softening up the hoards for a shock announcement ? :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Cos you stated that it's still going on.

The inquest is still going on?????????

[Ozyhibby]

I think the way this debate has gone is sadly typical of the way the whole Rangers issue has progressed in Scotland.

Imo hibs0666 has made some fair and sensible points (and some nonsense that I totally disagree with) but is attempting to come at this from a reasonably balanced point of view. Unfortunately there is no place for perspective and balance when it comes to the Rangers debate. It is black and white, us and them and there is no middle ground. If you attempt to come at this from the middle ground you are quickly driven to one side or the other (see what happened when Alex Thomson and Stan Collymore got involved). Poor hibs0666 comes at this from a sightly different angle and is castigated and called a hun - in this regard we are no better than the Rangers lot.

It would be wrong for Scottish football to spend the next 10 years bickering over title stripping. Whether titles are stripped or not, the past 15 years or so will go down as the most inglorious in Scottish football history as dubious clubs have made a mockery of it. Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Gretna and many more - many examples of clubs not running themselves, spending money they didn't have and gaining an unfair advantage. Most of the trophies won have been under dubious conditions and are tainted, even if the clubs fight tooth and nail to hang onto them. What value do those trophies really have?

We need to move on. The Rangers mindset makes that impossible so we're stuck and I don't know how we'll progress on that front. The most important thing is finding out the involvement of the Campbell Ogilvies of this world, the deals between Rangers and the SFA and we need to clean up our governing bodies big time. We need to get strict penalties for financial impropriety that will prove an adequate deterrent for clubs of the moral standing of Rangers and Hearts so we can play our football confident that we have a level playing field in future.

We need to bust the myth that Scotland can't survive without a club whose stadium is falling apart at the seams, are never out of court, need £2.5 million to finish the season whilst having 4x the playing budget of their nearest rivals, have fans who are immune to strict laws on sectarian chanting and don't have any concept that anything they have done might have been in any way wrong.

But there needs to be a shift from those who are not fans of Rangers too. The constant bloodlust is not helpful and in many ways legitimises the totally unacceptably inflexible viewpoint that those on the Rangers side choose to take.

It's not bloodlust. All we ask for is a FULL investigation into the whole sorry saga with all documents made available and all parties involved coming clean.
If that leads to title stripping so be it.
After that is done, then everyone can move on.
While we see one club being given immunity from a full investigation, there is no way the game will ever move on.
The ONLY way for this to end and for people to move on is for the TRUTH to come out and the people involved to be held responsible. None of that can happen until there is a proper transparent investigation into what happened.
Then we will all move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibs0666]

You missed my question.

How has the cheating been dealt with already?

The consequences of the cheating for old hun and new hun are clear by now surely?

[hibs0666]

It's not bloodlust. All we ask for is a FULL investigation into the whole sorry saga with all documents made available and all parties involved coming clean.
If that leads to title stripping so be it.
After that is done, then everyone can move on.
While we see one club being given immunity from a full investigation, there is no way the game will ever move on.
The ONLY way for this to end and for people to move on is for the TRUTH to come out and the people involved to be held responsible. None of that can happen until there is a proper transparent investigation into what happened.
Then we will all move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A full investigation cannot happen as large parts of the whole sorry saga are now in legal hands, and may remain so for years to come.

Meanwhile our game remains in some mad stasis at a time when radical change its urgently required. Really sad.

[Ronster117]

It's not bloodlust. All we ask for is a FULL investigation into the whole sorry saga with all documents made available and all parties involved coming clean.
If that leads to title stripping so be it.
After that is done, then everyone can move on.
While we see one club being given immunity from a full investigation, there is no way the game will ever move on.
The ONLY way for this to end and for people to move on is for the TRUTH to come out and the people involved to be held responsible. None of that can happen until there is a proper transparent investigation into what happened.
Then we will all move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This 100%
do we think it will happen...... I doubt it

[jacomo]

I think the way this debate has gone is sadly typical of the way the whole Rangers issue has progressed in Scotland.

Imo hibs0666 has made some fair and sensible points (and some nonsense that I totally disagree with) but is attempting to come at this from a reasonably balanced point of view. Unfortunately there is no place for perspective and balance when it comes to the Rangers debate. It is black and white, us and them and there is no middle ground. If you attempt to come at this from the middle ground you are quickly driven to one side or the other (see what happened when Alex Thomson and Stan Collymore got involved). Poor hibs0666 comes at this from a sightly different angle and is castigated and called a hun - in this regard we are no better than the Rangers lot.

It would be wrong for Scottish football to spend the next 10 years bickering over title stripping. Whether titles are stripped or not, the past 15 years or so will go down as the most inglorious in Scottish football history as dubious clubs have made a mockery of it. Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Gretna and many more - many examples of clubs not running themselves, spending money they didn't have and gaining an unfair advantage. Most of the trophies won have been under dubious conditions and are tainted, even if the clubs fight tooth and nail to hang onto them. What value do those trophies really have?

We need to move on. The Rangers mindset makes that impossible so we're stuck and I don't know how we'll progress on that front. The most important thing is finding out the involvement of the Campbell Ogilvies of this world, the deals between Rangers and the SFA and we need to clean up our governing bodies big time. We need to get strict penalties for financial impropriety that will prove an adequate deterrent for clubs of the moral standing of Rangers and Hearts so we can play our football confident that we have a level playing field in future.

We need to bust the myth that Scotland can't survive without a club whose stadium is falling apart at the seams, are never out of court, need £2.5 million to finish the season whilst having 4x the playing budget of their nearest rivals, have fans who are immune to strict laws on sectarian chanting and don't have any concept that anything they have done might have been in any way wrong.

But there needs to be a shift from those who are not fans of Rangers too. The constant bloodlust is not helpful and in many ways legitimises the totally unacceptably inflexible viewpoint that those on the Rangers side choose to take.

Dammit you make some good points.

But IMO reform of Scottish football has barely started. Given half a chance, the SFA and SPFL will slip back into the old ways of favouring the big boys while handing out draconian punishments to smaller clubs for the slightest transgression.

League reconstruction, football pyramid, facilities, youth set-ups, the National side, etc... so much work to do and it's barely started. Making changes is impossible if the two biggest clubs have an effective veto on every decision.

This is why it's important. We need to know - be absolutely sure - that the authorities will run the game for the benefit of everybody and investigate allegations of wrong doing without fear or favour.

If the Old Firm rise to dominate again in a fair and transparent set up, so be it. At least we will know it is a level(ish) playing field.

We are a long way from that point - in fact, earlier this year, the SFA approved Dave King as fit and proper to run a football club... Does that sound like lessons have been learned?

That is why the investigations must continue, because we are not out of the woods yet. We must know the rules are applied fairly. If that logic leads to titles being stripped, then so be it.

I can think of only 2 good reasons why - if Rangers are found to have gained an unfair advantage by deliberately concealing required documents from the League - they should not have titles removed:

1. Celtc fans will become insufferable.
2. The whataboutery might last for a decade.

But Celtc fans already are, and on the 2nd point, Hearts will squirm lest some dirty secrets are found in their closet. So all good :wink:

[Hibs Class]

Rangers were liquidated. How many more just desserts do you want?


The consequences of the cheating for old hun and new hun are clear by now surely?

That's not really an answer is it, it's just (not) answering a question with another question.

I don't think the cheating has been dealt with. If there was cheating in place when titles were won then those titles were tainted, but that has yet to be dealt with.

If the old Huns died (and became the corpse you referred to) then there would be no ambiguity re the old club and its history having a line drawn under it. Yet new huns still perpetuate the myth that their history is unbroken.

So, to repeat the question, in what way do you believe that the cheating has already been dealt with?

[southern hibby]

Ho ho.

Right mate Rangers were liquidated by their own Directors who couldn't afford to run the club any longer.

I Want Justice for the cheating that was done over the years that the EBT's were being handed out to players that YOUR TEAM could not afford to pay unless by deceit and illegal means.
My Team Hibs was done out of payments for placement where they came in the league because YOUR TEAM Rangers was fielding illegal players.why was it illegal because the payments were not logged with the SFA.
Without being cheeky or offensive run along to The Rangers fanzine and spout yer bile there.
Disclaimer if your not a The Rangers fan, a Jambo then apologies for calling you one, but as God is my judge I really think you are

GGTTH

[Jim44]

Richard Wilson discussing the possible departure of Warby.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34980312

" there has been no official contact between Rangers and Fulham ....... Yet ! "

Do you think the BBC lamb muncher could be softening up the hoards for a shock announcement ? :greengrin

I don't think there's really much chance of a shock announcement but I'm surprised that Warburton hasn't quashed the rumours by saying he is catagorically staying with Sevco for the forseeable future. Maybe he is sticking to his 'respect' fixation and is waiting for a concrete move by Fulham before telling them to stuff it.

[matty_f]

Right mate Rangers were liquidated by their own Directors who couldn't afford to run the club any longer.

I Want Justice for the cheating that was done over the years that the EBT's were being handed out to players that YOUR TEAM could not afford to pay unless by deceit and illegal means.
My Team Hibs was done out of payments for placement where they came in the league because YOUR TEAM Rangers was fielding illegal players.why was it illegal because the payments were not logged with the SFA.
Without being cheeky or offensive run along to The Rangers fanzine and spout yer bile there.
Disclaimer if your not a The Rangers fan, a Jambo then apologies for calling you one, but as God is my judge I really think you are

GGTTH

HIS TEAM is Hibs.

[hibs0666]

Right mate Rangers were liquidated by their own Directors who couldn't afford to run the club any longer.

I Want Justice for the cheating that was done over the years that the EBT's were being handed out to players that YOUR TEAM could not afford to pay unless by deceit and illegal means.
My Team Hibs was done out of payments for placement where they came in the league because YOUR TEAM Rangers was fielding illegal players.why was it illegal because the payments were not logged with the SFA.
Without being cheeky or offensive run along to The Rangers fanzine and spout yer bile there.
Disclaimer if your not a The Rangers fan, a Jambo then apologies for calling you one, but as God is my judge I really think you are

GGTTH

Nah your're clueless I'm afraid mate, and I need absolutely no lessons from you on how to support my club. I will be at the Morton game this weekend, just as I was at Alloa previously, just as I was standing behind the goals in Dumfries before that. Then there's the three (yes 3) 0-3's at Ibrox that I've had the privilege of attending.

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

Can you say the same? Good on you if you can.

Indeed I know personally some of the guys with whom I disagree on this particular thread. However, unlike you, I have respect the person even if I disagree with their views. Even you.

[hibs0666]

HIS TEAM is Hibs.

Scuse me, I can fight my own corner ya bam. :wink:

I may be wrong but I think that you, me, Jack and Stewart Crowther were the only four Hibbys one Tuesday afternoon at Barrowfield when you were filiming a reseve game against the tims. Or maybe I was a double agent and was spying for the huns. :wink:

[matty_f]

Scuse me, I can fight my own corner ya bam. :wink:

I may be wrong but I think that you, me, Jack and Stewart Crowther were the only four Hibbys one Tuesday afternoon at Barrowfield when you were filiming a reseve game against the tims. Or maybe I was a double agent and was spying for the huns. :wink:

I don't think that was me unless it was an under 19's game! :greengrin

[hibs0666]

I don't think that was me unless it was an under 19's game! :greengrin

It might well have been actually now that you mention it - must have been the league and cup double season.

[matty_f]

It might well have been actually now that you mention it - must have been the league and cup double season.

:agree: would have been.

[jgl07]

Anyway it appears that bits of Ibrox are falling off as those in the Lower Sandy Jardine Stand had to be moved to the Broomiloan.

Apparently bits of the stadium were swinging above the supporters.

What happens if they have the added expense of changing a lightbulb?

[Libby Hibby]

To me this is not an anti Rangers crusade or bloodlust that many are now calling it but as more and more is discovered about what went on then a sense of justice and integrity starts to come into it.

When the truth and pure facts are presented to all things Rangers, the Scottish Footballing bodies and to an extent the media, it's either their reaction, their silence or their lack of reporting that will not make this sorry tale move on.

This is NOT a witch hunt, this NOT some petty point scoring between rival football clubs and fans alike and this is certainly NOT a bloodlust to destroy Rangers. We simply want a fair outcome to what now is transpiring to be one world football's biggest frauds which implicates the very top of our organisation which are trusted in looking after the integrity of our national sport.

This rolling stone has gathered so much pace that this will not go away anytime soon and with the future court cases, the truth will come out and those involved will be punished. They simply have to.

[Hibby70]

It might well have been actually now that you mention it - must have been the league and cup double season.

Glory hunter.

[Keith_M]

Rangers were liquidated. How many more just desserts do you want?


An investigation into past wrongdoings by people currently in power. An enforcement of the rules in a fair and even manner, applied equally to all clubs, large or small.

All to send out a message that future shenanigans of this lknd will not be tolerated.


Is that really a problem?

[Glesgahibby]

Nah your're clueless I'm afraid mate, and I need absolutely no lessons from you on how to support my club. I will be at the Morton game this weekend, just as I was at Alloa previously, just as I was standing behind the goals in Dumfries before that. Then there's the three (yes 3) 0-3's at Ibrox that I've had the privilege of attending.

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

Can you say the same? Good on you if you can.

Indeed I know personally some of the guys with whom I disagree on this particular thread. However, unlike you, I have respect the person even if I disagree with their views. Even you.
Fit and proper test passed:greengrin
are you the guy that used to sit in the old main stand with the rattle,singing"Hibernian,Hibernian ra,ra,ra":flag:

[Just Alf]

Once again...


the huns died - how much more punishment can be inflicted on a corpse?
we need to make sure the new huns pay the fine, plus interest, for breaching the regulations on disclosure of the side letters
rather than endless naval gazing, implement a new governance structure that serves to address the myriad issues that has caused our game to become an increasing irrelevance.


none of them think they have, so they obviously don't think they've been punished for it themselves? = ineffective punishment!

On your last point, that is EXACTLY what we need! However, to do it we need to resolve all those pesky outstanding issues (so do the required navel gazing quicker! :wink: )

[Deansy]

It didn't originally but they have changed it now. I preferred their original effort too!

And I wonder who picked up the phone and ordered them to do that ??.

[Glesgahibby]

To me this is not an anti Rangers crusade or bloodlust that many are now calling it but as more and more is discovered about what went on then a sense of justice and integrity starts to come into it.

When the truth and pure facts are presented to all things Rangers, the Scottish Footballing bodies and to an extent the media, it's either their reaction, their silence or their lack of reporting that will not make this sorry tale move on.

This is NOT a witch hunt, this NOT some petty point scoring between rival football clubs and fans alike and this is certainly NOT a bloodlust to destroy Rangers. We simply want a fair outcome to what now is transpiring to be one world football's biggest frauds which implicates the very top of our organisation which are trusted in looking after the integrity of our national sport.

This rolling stone has gathered so much pace that this will not go away anytime soon and with the future court cases, the truth will come out and those involved will be punished. They simply have to.
Agree with this.

[southern hibby]

Nah your're clueless I'm afraid mate, and I need absolutely no lessons from you on how to support my club. I will be at the Morton game this weekend, just as I was at Alloa previously, just as I was standing behind the goals in Dumfries before that. Then there's the three (yes 3) 0-3's at Ibrox that I've had the privilege of attending.

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

Can you say the same? Good on you if you can.

Indeed I know personally some of the guys with whom I disagree on this particular thread. However, unlike you, I have respect the person even if I disagree with their views. Even you.

I have respected the person I just don't get why a Hibs fan would agressively chase this with other Hibs fans like you do.

As I said if your a Hibsfan ( and I will apologise if you are )then that's fine but maybe if you answered some of the questions on here you were asked. I for one find you very confusing going on about Rangers being punished, they have not been in my eyes.

As far as I'm concerned they went into liquidation as I said that was they're fault not a punishment. They lost their license a new team applied for the license and got it not the old team.
The old Rangers in my eyes need agressively chased through the courts as has happened and punished the fans of both teams have not under any circumstances given any remorse about what their old club did and new club mentality is the same as the old.

Make No Mistake if The old Rangers are not punished they will keep on doing this until they are still bringing Scottish football into disrepute and will end up going back into Scottish football and because they have not been punished ( a £250,000 fine that's never been paid is not a punishment, it's another sign of their contempt) and it will be everyone's fault on here.

As for personally artacking you on here I personally don't think I did I feel
I aggressively put my point of view across that differs from yours but it's ok for you to do that?

So if I offended I will publicly apologise now online ( I sir do apologise for calling you a Rangers fan) even though I said I believe you to be one or a Jambo. Mate I've been a Hibs fan all my life and I go to every game home away the lot but you are the first Hibs fan that has in my knowledge stuck up for them. Also in one of your post back earlier you called Celtic the tims there's not many Hibs fans I know that have called them that in years.

GGTTH

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

The list of different teams that have won the 2 major cup competitions in the last 5 years for one. I make it 9 different sides have won silverware since 2010. The most competitive 5 year period for many decades no?

Hibs0666 you may have missed this one but I agree with the above. Our game has got far more competitive and no longer is it just the OF dominating. The tragic thing is we've been down here for two seasons not taking advantage of it (bloody butcher!!)

[Kavinho]

As said a few pages back, this feels to me very watergate-esque at this stage.

Some people were happy after the arrests were made following the breakin at the DNC HQ.

A long long time later, after numerous court cases, the scandal took down the top man....



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

[Brunswickbill]

As said a few pages back, this feels to me very watergate-esque at this stage.

Some people were happy after the arrests were made following the breakin at the DNC HQ.

A long long time later, after numerous court cases, the scandal took down the top man....



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

I just wish that a small percentage of the effort that goes into investigating/ discussing the RIPFC debacle would go into looking in depth at the dodgy dealings of our neighbours. Nothing bugs me more than hearing a yam taking the moral high ground on this.

[Kavinho]

I just wish that a small percentage of the effort that goes into investigating/ discussing the RIPFC debacle would go into looking in depth at the dodgy dealings of our neighbours. Nothing bugs me more than hearing a yam taking the moral high ground on this.


I'll assume that's a generalisation as opposed to any accusation of yammery on my part!!

Agreed though.. My yam mates generally know to keep a bit quiet on this topic with me!

House of cards though... enough digging and the spotlight will eventually shine on the Yams. I'm not giving up hope on that yet!

[Geo_1875]

I just wish that a small percentage of the effort that goes into investigating/ discussing the RIPFC debacle would go into looking in depth at the dodgy dealings of our neighbours. Nothing bugs me more than hearing a yam taking the moral high ground on this.

Whenever I see a yam looking for the moral high-ground I just laugh or snort disdainfully. I've given up on explaining that the only difference between them is the old Rangers died during the season while hertz lied about their situation to avoid relegation.

[jacomo]

I'll assume that's a generalisation as opposed to any accusation of yammery on my part!!

Agreed though.. My yam mates generally know to keep a bit quiet on this topic with me!

House of cards though... enough digging and the spotlight will eventually shine on the Yams. I'm not giving up hope on that yet!

This is where whataboutery will come into play.

Keep up the pressure on the died Huns and eventually they will start their 'What about Romanov funnelling player payments through Lithuania? Were they all properly declared to the SPL?'

Will be worrying for the Yams of course... but hey ho. :wink:

[Kato]

That club is dead - how exactly can a club that died get away with it?

Again you say they are dead. More than once you've been corrected on this but seem to willfully ignore the fact that they are not dead, just in liquidation.

[Brunswickbill]

I'll assume that's a generalisation as opposed to any accusation of yammery on my part!!

Agreed though.. My yam mates generally know to keep a bit quiet on this topic with me!

House of cards though... enough digging and the spotlight will eventually shine on the Yams. I'm not giving up hope on that yet!

A generalisation - no yammery implied.

[hibs0666]

I have respected the person I just don't get why a Hibs fan would agressively chase this with other Hibs fans like you do.

I've got a different opinion that's all. In my opinion Scottish football needs to focus its efforts on the future not on naval gazing about the past. I hear people saying that we need to get to the bottom of past transgressions to create a better future. However, in my opinion, we already know everything we need to know from this sorry episode.


As I said if your a Hibsfan ( and I will apologise if you are )then that's fine but maybe if you answered some of the questions on here you were asked. I for one find you very confusing going on about Rangers being punished, they have not been in my eyes.

All I can say, once again, is that:

a) the old club is now deid - what more can you do to a corpse?
b) the new club has been fined for the failure to disclose side letters - you might not like the punishment, but there is no point in arguing that there has been no punishment
c) the new club has not played in top-flight football for 4 seasons - same as above

And I don't care about your apology to be honest - you shot from the hip without knowing the first thing about me and that is just rank bad patter.


As far as I'm concerned they went into liquidation as I said that was they're fault not a punishment. They lost their license a new team applied for the license and got it not the old team.
The old Rangers in my eyes need agressively chased through the courts as has happened and punished the fans of both teams have not under any circumstances given any remorse about what their old club did and new club mentality is the same as the old.

What do you want to achieve by chasing old Rangers through the courts - it is already deid! And the characters involved in this sorry saga will have their days in court soon. Again - what more do you want beyond what is already happening?


Make No Mistake if The old Rangers are not punished they will keep on doing this until they are still bringing Scottish football into disrepute and will end up going back into Scottish football and because they have not been punished ( a £250,000 fine that's never been paid is not a punishment, it's another sign of their contempt) and it will be everyone's fault on here.

The old Rangers cannot keep doing anything - it's deid! Going forward is much more important. Unfortunately we would all rather focus on the past rather then focus our energies on making Scottish football better.


As for personally artacking you on here I personally don't think I did I feel
I aggressively put my point of view across that differs from yours but it's ok for you to do that?

So if I offended I will publicly apologise now online ( I sir do apologise for calling you a Rangers fan) even though I said I believe you to be one or a Jambo. Mate I've been a Hibs fan all my life and I go to every game home away the lot but you are the first Hibs fan that has in my knowledge stuck up for them. Also in one of your post back earlier you called Celtic the tims there's not many Hibs fans I know that have called them that in years.

Jeezo I'm not sticking up for that mob and, believe me, there is nothing better than sticking it up them. However, this is now a little historic sideshow when compared to the real problems afflicting our game in the here and now, and that need to be addressed with urgency.

[hibs0666]

Again you say they are dead. More than once you've been corrected on this but seem to willfully ignore the fact that they are not dead, just in liquidation.

In law and business, liquidation is the process by which a company (or part of a company) is brought to an end, and the assets and property of the company are redistributed. Liquidation is also sometimes referred to as winding-up or dissolution, although dissolution technically refers to the last stage of liquidation.

[CropleyWasGod]

In law and business, liquidation is the process by which a company (or part of a company) is brought to an end, and the assets and property of the company are redistributed. Liquidation is also sometimes referred to as winding-up or dissolution, although dissolution technically refers to the last stage of liquidation.

I think Kato means that the company who formerly ran the football club are "in liquidation", but not yet liquidated. In other words, that company still exists, and will continue to do so for the time being. They're certainly not "deid".

[hibs0666]

I think Kato means that the company who formerly ran the football club are "in liquidation", but not yet liquidated. In other words, that company still exists, and will continue to do so for the time being. They're certainly not "deid".

Old Rangers is not trading, nor is it playing football matches. It will never trade again and will never play another football match. It's deid to me.

[southern hibby]

I've got a different opinion that's all. In my opinion Scottish football needs to focus its efforts on the future not on naval gazing about the past. I hear people saying that we need to get to the bottom of past transgressions to create a better future. However, in my opinion, we already know everything we need to know from this sorry episode.



All I can say, once again, is that:

a) the old club is now deid - what more can you do to a corpse?
b) the new club has been fined for the failure to disclose side letters - you might not like the punishment, but there is no point in arguing that there has been no punishment
c) the new club has not played in top-flight football for 4 seasons - same as above

And I don't care about your apology to be honest - you shot from the hip without knowing the first thing about me and that is just rank bad patter.



What do you want to achieve by chasing old Rangers through the courts - it is already deid! And the characters involved in this sorry saga will have their days in court soon. Again - what more do you want beyond what is already happening?



The old Rangers cannot keep doing anything - it's deid! Going forward is much more important. Unfortunately we would all rather focus on the past rather then focus our energies on making Scottish football better.



Jeezo I'm not sticking up for that mob and, believe me, there is nothing better than sticking it up them. However, this is now a little historic sideshow when compared to the real problems afflicting our game in the here and now, and that need to be addressed with urgency.

You asked what we can do to a died club, we can actively chase it through the SFA so that clarity can be sought to avoid this happening again to Scottish football. Make no mistake as I said The Rangers fans have no distinction between old and new club just that they are the same. This if not addressed will lead to possibly them or other clubs doing the same again.

I agree they have been punished but by not excepting punishment ie payment then as far as I am concerned they have not excepted punishment.
As for shooting from the hip, sorry but if you read my post I left a disclaimer. As I have said it was my opinion just as you are giving your opinion about The Rangers. If you don't want to except my opinion or listen to it that's fine but that means that anyone else does not need to listen to yours either.
I've listened to it and don't agree with it but that's my porogitive as it is with yours to either listen or not.
I opoligised if I offended because no offence was meant however I still am untitled to my opinions and point of views as it is yours to except or not.

GGTTH

[Lucius Apuleius]

My issue with 666's statements is the fact that not only do I want the hun dead, I want their hordes to know it too.

[CropleyWasGod]

Old Rangers is not trading, nor is it playing football matches. It will never trade again and will never play another football match. It's deid to me.

Are you absolutely certain that the old company will never trade again? Do you know how the issue of the ownership of the assets will play out?

And, at the risk of widening this to yet another "new club/old club" debate, there are those (myself included) who are of the opinion that the club is still alive, both legally and emotionally. However, as I've often said, that debate will almost certainly never be settled.

[hibs0666]

You asked what we can do to a died club, we can actively chase it through the SFA so that clarity can be sought to avoid this happening again to Scottish football. Make no mistake as I said The Rangers fans have no distinction between old and new club just that they are the same. This if not addressed will lead to possibly them or other clubs doing the same again.

I agree they have been punished but by not excepting punishment ie payment then as far as I am concerned they have not excepted punishment.
As for shooting from the hip, sorry but if you read my post I left a disclaimer. As I have said it was my opinion just as you are giving your opinion about The Rangers. If you don't want to except my opinion or listen to it that's fine but that means that anyone else does not need to listen to yours either.
I've listened to it and don't agree with it but that's my porogitive as it is with yours to either listen or not.
I opoligised if I offended because no offence was meant however I still am untitled to my opinions and point of views as it is yours to except or not.

GGTTH

No bother. We agree to disagree and nothing wrong with that.

[Kato]

In law and business, liquidation is the process by which a company (or part of a company) is brought to an end, and the assets and property of the company are redistributed. Liquidation is also sometimes referred to as winding-up or dissolution, although dissolution technically refers to the last stage of liquidation.

...a company can also be brought out of liquidation.

[CallumLaidlaw]

I'm really worried about these world class players rangers are looking to bring in in January!! :wink:




Rangers have stepped up their interest in Accrington Stanley pair Matt Crooks and Josh Windass

[Kato]

I'm really worried about these world class players rangers are looking to bring in in January!! :wink:

Crooks and Windass - suits them.

[CentreLine]

Old Rangers is not trading, nor is it playing football matches. It will never trade again and will never play another football match. It's deid to me.

I think you are missing a major point here. This purging of our game can and must go much deeper than whether or not there is a Rangers. The whole management structure of our game has exposed itself to allegations of deep rooted corruption, specifically to favour the advancement of two clubs. By ensuring that all of this comes out in the open we have a fighting chance of creating a level playing field in the game for the first time in yours or my lifetime. Painful though it might be I firmly believe that this is our once in a lifetime opportunity to rid our game of a duopoly spoilling the game for the majority. Healthy honest competition is a spectator sport and an entertainment that has attracted tens of thousands in the past and can again. A business run by a corrupt organisation with self interest at its heart may just have brought our game to the brink of extinction and many still do not see that.

It is what has gone on in the past that is killing our game and whether you intend to or not you appear to be suggesting that we just let it go, suck it up and allow it to carry on as before. Well not for me.

Now if the SFA and SPFL came out and threw their hand up, said that a line was drawn and that they accepted past practice was unacceptable, with assurances that the field would be level going forward, then I think I could move on regardless of whether there was retrospective punishment. Sadly I think we need the present painful process to get us there.

[Kavinho]

A generalisation - no yammery implied.

:aok:

[hibs0666]

I think you are missing a major point here. This purging of our game can and must go much deeper than whether or not there is a Rangers. The whole management structure of our game has exposed itself to allegations of deep rooted corruption, specifically to favour the advancement of two clubs. By ensuring that all of this comes out in the open we have a fighting chance of creating a level playing field in the game for the first time in yours or my lifetime. Painful though it might be I firmly believe that this is our once in a lifetime opportunity to rid our game of a duopoly spoilling the game for the majority. Healthy honest competition is a spectator sport and an entertainment that has attracted tens of thousands in the past and can again. A business run by a corrupt organisation with self interest at its heart may just have brought our game to the brink of extinction and many still do not see that.

It is what has gone on in the past that is killing our game and whether you intend to or not you appear to be suggesting that we just let it go, suck it up and allow it to carry on as before. Well not for me.

Now if the SFA and SPFL came out and threw their hand up, said that a line was drawn and that they accepted past practice was unacceptable, with assurances that the field would be level going forward, then I think I could move on regardless of whether there was retrospective punishment. Sadly I think we need the present painful process to get us there.

I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

[Kato]

I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

The detailed analysis is still going through the courts and still be misinterpreted by the media so it's perfectly natural that people will discuss what is actually still ongoing.

[brog]

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

I've never challenged the fact you're genuine hence my continuing incredulity at your stance. You choose to accept one part of LNS judgement, the £250k ( unpaid ) fine, but not his statement that The Rangers are the same club! You can't really rely on part of his report to support your argument but ignore the major part that doesn't! About 3 pages ( seems like a week ago ) back I said I agreed your points 1 & 2, that was a typo, I meant 2 & 3, ie Sevco must pay the fine now & a proper system of governance must be established. I worked in financial governance for many years & our starting point was almost always a look back at prior failures. That's why the same thing should happen with this sorry saga including a review of the cover-up which was the LNS report. It's not just punishment for The Rangers that I want, I think it's essential that the roles played by people such as Campbell Ogilvie, Regan, Doncaster et al be exposed to proper scrutiny & censure/action if appropriate.
PS, The £250k fine was imposed on The Rangers by LNS for failing to declare side letters to what was at that time deemed to be a legal tax avoidance scheme. ( or rather Oldco were deemed to have been in compliance with the rules of such a scheme, which they clearly were not - the loans were never intended to be repaid ). In light of the current status of EBT's would you accept that punishment for The Rangers could & should have been greater? Mind you, as they continue not to pay the £250k, & how do they get away with that?, it probably doesn't matter. As I said earlier true Armageddon occurs when the rule of law breaks down & that's been pretty much the attitude of The Rangers for the last 3 years.

[CentreLine]

I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

But you're not offering a way to achieve that. Simply putting our head in the sand and saying "well that was all a bit dodgy" then carrying on as before cannot be an option. The beaks have had nothing to say on this and if they say and do nothing then they must be made to do so

[greenginger]

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/fulham/news/report-fulham-target-mark-warburton_260280.html#$$nyqbp3&&TXleTJjrEeWYDxLiLCu6pw$$

I hope they keep stirring it.

[AndyM_1875]

I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

I agree with that. As is known I have absolutely no time for the Phil McGobbledygooks of this world and the other Sellik minded bigots who are trying to sell me their agenda but as a whole I would suggest Scottish football needs rigourous financial controls put in place far more than it needs more thashing of the Rangers panto.

I'd suggest the following could be a start.
1) Each club should aim to break even every year. Clubs which continually post losses year on year without address to point 2 shall be called before the SFA/SPFL where points deductions may apply the next season.

2) Existing bank debts and loansheld by clubs should be actively paid down and progress should be seen year on year in this area. Failure to address points 1 and 2 shall result in automatic relegation.

3) Clubs which do not submit audited accounts and are also in breach or points 1 and 2 shall be automatically relegated to the bottom tier.