Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[jacomo]

http://m.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13931530.Sports_Direct_bid_to_block_charity_cash_t o_Rangers_Former_Players_Benevolent_Fund/?ref=twtrec

Ashley tightening his grip on his intellectual property

'Its clear that every penny went to the benevolent fund' says some rent a gob.

Except that the items apparently had this printed on them: 'A contribution goes to the benevolent fund.'

That doesn't mean the same as every penny, does it? Normally you use this phrase when you are not sure what the charitable donation will be, or if it is only made after a profit. If they sold 10,000 of them, just 10p from every minimum £1 donation would get them to their 'four figure' donation.

[Ozyhibby]

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/11/03/the-con-man-who-would-be-king/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibee87]

No idea who these people are but:

SPFL News Now ‏@SPFLTransfer (https://twitter.com/SPFLTransfer) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/SPFLTransfer/status/661507296757837824)
Rangers edging closer to Administration according to some inside reports....more to come on this...

[jacomo]

No idea who these people are but:

SPFL News Now ‏@SPFLTransfer (https://twitter.com/SPFLTransfer) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/SPFLTransfer/status/661507296757837824)
Rangers edging closer to Administration according to some inside reports....more to come on this...

I'd accept a 15 point deduction, on the proviso that Dave King, john Greig and Walter Smith stand on the steps of Ibrox and solemnly declare:

'This is a new club, formed in 2012. The stars on the shirt are a fraud. They refer to the old Rangers, and that one is dead.'

[ano hibby]

Could someone remind me who John James is pls..background/angle/credibility..?
Ta

[steakbake]

Could someone remind me who John James is pls..background/angle/credibility..?
Ta

It varies depending on who is talking about him. To some, he's a Celtic mole who has no inside information and is just a stirrer. To others, he's a Rangers man who is concerned about the future of his club. To the rest, he's just a guy who happens to post about Rangers stuff online but they're not sure who he is.

Apparently, he's a SE England based business man with lots of time on his hands. Reading the comments, it seems that some TRFC fans do think he has some credibility, but perhaps that's just the comments he allows. He bans Celtic fans from leaving comments.

[ano hibby]

It varies depending on who is talking about him. To some, he's a Celtic mole who has no inside information and is just a stirrer. To others, he's a Rangers man who is concerned about the future of his club. To the rest, he's just a guy who happens to post about Rangers stuff online but they're not sure who he is.

Apparently, he's a SE England based business man with lots of time on his hands. Reading the comments, it seems that some TRFC fans do think he has some credibility, but perhaps that's just the comments he allows. He bans Celtic fans from leaving comments.

Thanks

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd accept a 15 point deduction, on the proviso that Dave King, john Greig and Walter Smith stand on the steps of Ibrox and solemnly declare:

'This is a new club, formed in 2012. The stars on the shirt are a fraud. They refer to the old Rangers, and that one is dead.'

I'd rather play by the rules and have a 25 point penalty, this season and next.

Bu then I've always had sympathy with the argument that they're the same club. :cb

[CropleyWasGod]

It varies depending on who is talking about him. To some, he's a Celtic mole who has no inside information and is just a stirrer. To others, he's a Rangers man who is concerned about the future of his club. To the rest, he's just a guy who happens to post about Rangers stuff online but they're not sure who he is.

Apparently, he's a SE England based business man with lots of time on his hands. Reading the comments, it seems that some TRFC fans do think he has some credibility, but perhaps that's just the comments he allows. He bans Celtic fans from leaving comments.

He also "moderates" comments which are either critical or questioning. :wink:

[southsider]

I'd accept a 15 point deduction, on the proviso that Dave King, john Greig and Walter Smith stand on the steps of Ibrox and solemnly declare:

'This is a new club, formed in 2012. The stars on the shirt are a fraud. They refer to the old Rangers, and that one is dead.'

I like your style but a 15 point deduction is not allowed under SFA rules. Admin 2 for The The rangers brings about a 25 point deduction. Bring it on !

[steakbake]

He also "moderates" comments which are either critical or questioning. :wink:

That, too...

[haagsehibby]

Could someone remind me who John James is pls..background/angle/credibility..?
Ta

His writing style is remarkably similar to Phil MacG.

[greenginger]

His writing style is remarkably similar to Phil MacG.


Not really, some of his paragraphs have more than 3 lines ! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

That, too...

Rips ma knitting :)

He's let a couple of mine through that are mildly supportive, or which suit his agenda.

Most, though, are questioning (and not necessarily in a critical sense. I'm usually looking for clarification). Those get dumped.

[steakbake]

Not really, some of his paragraphs have more than 3 lines ! :greengrin

Hahaha yeah, Phil writes like the Daily Record stenographers that he regularly criticises.

That is to say, one sentence paragaphs.

Unless of course, he's talking about people.

In which case, he likes to use their full names - like Mr David Cunningham King.

Helps to explain things to the hard of thinking.

[green glory]

There's a copy of a letter kicking about on Twitter, MA essentially demanding an EGM.

[Spike Mandela]

Read all about it.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/mike-ashley-moves-rangers-chairman-6754991 (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/mike-ashley-moves-rangers-chairman-6754991)

Call me cynical but is that report not just an excuse to promote the boycott? Daily Record doing the bidding.....as ever.

[CropleyWasGod]

Call me cynical but is that report not just an excuse to promote the boycott? Daily Record doing the bidding.....as ever.

You?


:na na:

[Spike Mandela]

You?


:na na:

Hey CWG. Check this.........Ashley letter

15600

[Weststandwanab]

There's a copy of a letter kicking about on Twitter, MA essentially demanding an EGM.

And here it is.

[CropleyWasGod]

Hey CWG. Check this.........Ashley letter

15600

Ta.

If that's genuine, it's a beauty :)

[Hibee87]

I have no idea what damage that letter can do, but I noticed its dated last Monday. Is that not when dave king had his emergency stop over in Glasgow :confused:

[Hermit Crab]

And here it is.

Surely it would have some sort of official company headed paper or something? Not just standard A4 fired out someone's printer???

[brog]

Ta.

If that's genuine, it's a beauty :)

Looks genuine & I agree! Ashley doing SFA/SPFL's job!

[PatHead]

Who are Ben Nevis holdings and what have they been up to?

[Weststandwanab]

Surely it would have some sort of official company headed paper or something? Not just standard A4 fired out someone's printer???

Not necessarily it is Ashley you are talking about.

That was the scan I was sent and did not type, nor more importantly, sign it as Ashley.

[CropleyWasGod]

Who are Ben Nevis holdings and what have they been up to?

This case goes back years, AFAIK.

http://swarb.co.uk/ben-nevis-holdings-ltd-and-another-v-revenue-ca-23-may-2013/

https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/category/revenue-and-customs-anor-v-ben-nevis-holdings-ltd-ors/

[CropleyWasGod]

Not necessarily it is Ashley you are talking about.

That was the scan I was sent and did not type, nor more importantly, sign it as Ashley.

The letter does have the tax case citation wrong, though.

http://swarb.co.uk/ben-nevis-holdings-ltd-and-another-v-revenue-ca-23-may-2013/

[Spike Mandela]

Is it a photo shop of the previous letter or does this prove it is an official document.......previous was on Daily Record site.....

15602

15603

You decide.

[BH Hibs]

No idea who these people are but:

SPFL News Now ‏@SPFLTransfer (https://twitter.com/SPFLTransfer) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/SPFLTransfer/status/661507296757837824)
Rangers edging closer to Administration according to some inside reports....more to come on this...

Stop teasing :hyper

[greenginger]

Mike Ashley is the sole director of Mash holdings Ltd. Maybe thinks there's no need to have headed paper.

[Spike Mandela]

Mike Ashley is the sole director of Mash holdings Ltd. Maybe thinks there's no need to have headed paper.

Maybe he's hoping to put the Rangers crest on it?

[CropleyWasGod]

Mike Ashley is the sole director of Mash holdings Ltd. Maybe thinks there's no need to have headed paper.

Official communications still need certain information.

https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company/signs-stationery-and-promotional-material

In that light, those letters wouldn't get much serious attention.

[Treadstone]

I've had a wee look at Betfair and it'll take £156 to squeeze the market depth on Hibs to win the championship. Nothing sets bum squeaking more than a price colllapse on the team most likely to profit from a Sevco misfortune.

[greenginger]

Official communications still need certain information.

https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company/signs-stationery-and-promotional-material

In that light, those letters wouldn't get much serious attention.


The letter has the Company name and registered address but not the company registration number. The letter we see may have come with a covering letter with all the info.

The signature is at least a good copy of Mike Ashley's scrawly signature on his accounts , if not the real thing.

[Weststandwanab]

I've had a wee look at Betfair and it'll take £156 to squeeze the market depth on Hibs to win the championship. Nothing sets bum squeaking more than a price colllapse on the team most likely to profit from a Sevco misfortune.

To those of us who either do not bet, or like me put £1 on at the stadium on Riordan/Fletcher/Cummings to score the first goal, what does that actually mean ?

[Treadstone]

To those of us who either do not bet, or like me put £1 on at the stadium on Riordan/Fletcher/Cummings to score the first goal, what does that actually mean ?

Currently there is the availability to bet £113 at 7.2 (just over 6/1). When that £113 goes the next price moves up the ladder ( currently only £13 available at just over 5s) and so on.

Usually ante post markets give a good guide to form/fitness/intentions for horses. People close to stables or info can make a few quid with little or no risk.

[AndyM_1875]

I'd accept a 15 point deduction, on the proviso that Dave King, john Greig and Walter Smith stand on the steps of Ibrox and solemnly declare:

'This is a new club, formed in 2012. The stars on the shirt are a fraud. They refer to the old Rangers, and that one is dead.'

Balls to that. Same club = MINUS 25.

[Weststandwanab]

Currently there is the availability to bet £113 at 7.2 (just over 6/1). When that £113 goes the next price moves up the ladder ( currently only £13 available at just over 5s) and so on.

Usually ante post markets give a good guide to form/fitness/intentions for horses. People close to stables or info can make a few quid with little or no risk.

Thank you.


Balls to that. Same club = MINUS 25.

Now if this comes to pass it will be a dilemma for your average Sevconian.

If they are the same club (Keep all the badges) 25 points but if they want to take 15 points they will have to admit they are only 3 years old and surrender the badges.

Excuse the No Surrender pun.

[MrSmith]

Now if this comes to pass it will be a dilemma for your average Sevconian.

If they are the same club (Keep all the badges) 25 points but if they want to take 15 points they will have to admit they are only 3 years old and surrender the badges.

Excuse the No Surrender pun.

Win Win? ;) brill!

[Smartie]

I'd accept a 15 point deduction, on the proviso that Dave King, john Greig and Walter Smith stand on the steps of Ibrox and solemnly declare:

'This is a new club, formed in 2012. The stars on the shirt are a fraud. They refer to the old Rangers, and that one is dead.'

I'm with you on this only I'd go a wee bit further.

After making your statement I'd like to see them lead a selection of good Rangers men (including but not limited to Ally McCoist, Mark Hateley, Richard Gough, Andy Cameron, Noel Edmonds, Maggie Thatcher, Adolf Hitler and Fred West) in a big performance of the dance from Michael Jackson's Thriller.

[Brunswickbill]

Rule E5 of SPFL

Where a Club, whether owned and operated by the same or a different Member, suffers or is subject to an Insolvency Event which results in a deduction of points in terms of these Rules and within 5 years of the date of such Insolvency Event suffers or is subject to a further Insolvency Event which is not part of the same Insolvency Process as the Insolvency Event then suffered, the points deduction applicable in terms of Rules E1 in respect of that second or further Insolvency Event, shall be 25 points with the 15 points in Rules E2 and E3 being 25 Points.

Looks to me that the debate over old or new club doen't come into it. -25 points.

[AndyM_1875]

Now if this comes to pass it will be a dilemma for your average Sevconian.

If they are the same club (Keep all the badges) 25 points but if they want to take 15 points they will have to admit they are only 3 years old and surrender the badges.

Excuse the No Surrender pun.

:greengrin

Administration would have Rangers second bottom and on 8 points..:wink:.

[hibbytam]

How would a second admin work? Is it simply a case of the bank balance hitting 0, with no overdraft?
Ashley £5M loan aside, who else would they owe money to? Surely anyone working with them would demand payments up front.
If it's just mike, does he have final say over any post admin agreements?

[PatHead]

Thank you.



Now if this comes to pass it will be a dilemma for your average Sevconian.

If they are the same club (Keep all the badges) 25 points but if they want to take 15 points they will have to admit they are only 3 years old and surrender the badges.

Excuse the No Surrender pun.

Cmon the multi quotes!

Not seen many posts lately.

[Jim44]

How would a second admin work? Is it simply a case of the bank balance hitting 0, with no overdraft?
Ashley £5M loan aside, who else would they owe money to? Surely anyone working with them would demand payments up front.
If it's just mike, does he have final say over any post admin agreements?

I wouldn't bank on that assumption. I bet there are lots of companies dealing with Sevco on a normal basis despite their previous record. Look at the situation with Heriot Watt and the Jambos. They were falling over themselves to let the Jambos continue to use the training facilities even after being shafted rotten for thousands of pounds. I think I've got that right.

[PatHead]

Thank you.



Now if this comes to pass it will be a dilemma for your average Sevconian.

If they are the same club (Keep all the badges) 25 points but if they want to take 15 points they will have to admit they are only 3 years old and surrender the badges.

Excuse the No Surrender pun.

BTW rules changed they will get 25 points irrespective of old or new club.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thank you.



Now if this comes to pass it will be a dilemma for your average Sevconian.

If they are the same club (Keep all the badges) 25 points but if they want to take 15 points they will have to admit they are only 3 years old and surrender the badges.

Excuse the No Surrender pun.
There's no argument IMO. It's 25 points. The rules are clear.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[southern hibby]

I wouldn't bank on that assumption. I bet there are lots of companies dealing with Sevco on a normal basis despite their previous record. Look at the situation with Heriot Watt and the Jambos. They were falling over themselves to let the Jambos continue to use the training facilities even after being shafted rotten for thousands of pounds. I think I've got that right.

Not sure how true this is but heard that HWU has been promised a substantial amount of money to get their sports area redeveloped and up to a set standard because of community use which includes them using the place that's why they are happy to let them re-use the facilities.

Not saying any of this is true but you never know.

GGTTH

[greenginger]

And to add to the Sevco news ......



http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/25/1513/Advocate-General-for-Scotland-v-Murray-Group-Holdings-and-others

Big Tax Case decisions announced tomorrow.

[bingo70]

And to add to the Sevco news ......



http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/25/1513/Advocate-General-for-Scotland-v-Murray-Group-Holdings-and-others

Big Tax Case decisions announced tomorrow.

Will that have any impact on the new rangers?

[CropleyWasGod]

Will that have any impact on the new rangers?
Not directly.

It may have an impact on the dividend to creditors, of whom King is one. In that light, it would affect the amount that he could invest in the club.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

How would a second admin work? Is it simply a case of the bank balance hitting 0, with no overdraft?
Ashley £5M loan aside, who else would they owe money to? Surely anyone working with them would demand payments up front.
If it's just mike, does he have final say over any post admin agreements?
If they have been living hand to mouth for a while, which most companies who have problems do, it's likely that the creditors list will be pretty big. Not sure if it will be as big as the last time, though.

As for any administration, MASH is a secured creditor, so wouldn't have any say in a CVA. It would be down to the ordinary creditors to decide on that. As ever, HMRC would be a major player.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[greenginger]

Not directly.

It may have an impact on the dividend to creditors, of whom King is one. In that light, it would affect the amount that he could invest in the club.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

I thought King had his claim as a creditor rejected by BDO a couple of weeks ago.

Probably when you were swanning about on your hols. :greengrin

[Jack]

Not directly.

It may have an impact on the dividend to creditors, of whom King is one. In that light, it would affect the amount that he could invest in the club.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Not if the Herald is to be believed ...

RANGERS chairman Dave King has had a claim for millions from the £18 million club oldco creditors pot thrown out by liquidators.

http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13716072.Rangers_chairman_has_multi_million_claim_ on___18m_oldco_creditors_pot_rejected/

[greenginger]

Not if the Herald is to be believed ...

RANGERS chairman Dave King has had a claim for millions from the £18 million club oldco creditors pot thrown out by liquidators.

http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13716072.Rangers_chairman_has_multi_million_claim_ on___18m_oldco_creditors_pot_rejected/


Even blue-nose media say it was rejected.

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=287528

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought King had his claim as a creditor rejected by BDO a couple of weeks ago.

Probably when you were swanning about on your hols. :greengrin
Ah i forgot that.

Chinese telly reported that Socialist hero Dave "Fidel " King was winning the class war against the running dogs of imperialism.

Okay....scratch my earlier reply. Don't think it will make any difference to the current company.

[emoji6]

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[jacomo]

Even blue-nose media say it was rejected.

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=287528

Ah, shame.

:wink:

[Weststandwanab]

:greengrin

Administration would have Rangers second bottom and on 8 points..:wink:.

Indeed but they may try and wait until they are further ahead before accepting the 25 points assuming they last that long.


Cmon the multi quotes!

Not seen many posts lately.

Complain when I do and then complain when I don't, what does that remind you of ?



BTW rules changed they will get 25 points irrespective of old or new club.

Yes, sorry I forgot about that change.


There's no argument IMO. It's 25 points. The rules are clear.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Yes, you are correct.

[Ozyhibby]

@alextomo: The ever-helpful HMRC have written : "Good evening Alex, the Rangers judgment is out tomorrow."

Would HMRC know the result by now? Could their willingness to notify journo's be an indication they got a positive result?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sergey]

@alextomo: The ever-helpful HMRC have written : "Good evening Alex, the Rangers judgment is out tomorrow."

Would HMRC know the result by now? Could their willingness to notify journo's be an indication they got a positive result?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're merely stating fact - that's how I read it.

[jonty]

@alextomo: The ever-helpful HMRC have written : "Good evening Alex, the Rangers judgment is out tomorrow."

Would HMRC know the result by now? Could their willingness to notify journo's be an indication they got a positive result?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's probably just asked if they've got the judgement and they've palmed him off with a bog-standard reply.

[Torto7062]

Saw a few comments on Twitter and Facebook saying that the Ibrox Faithful are desperate for money and that the club could hit their 1st ever administration (formed 2012)

Anyone else heard these malicious rumours 😆😆

[magpie1892]

Saw a few comments on Twitter and Facebook saying that the Ibrox Faithful are desperate for money and that the club could hit their 1st ever administration (formed 2012)

Anyone else heard these malicious rumours 

They are totally strapped but I hear that another administration is not imminent. I say 'another' as the invertebrate SFA reckon they are the same club that liquidated in 2012. If they do go into admin, we should thank the SFA for holding that view because it will cost them 25 points this time.

[Sir David Gray]

That can't be true.

Mark Warburton and Dave King have told us that they're going to be competing with Celtic next season for the Premiership title and the season after that, they'll be in the Champions League.

[steakbake]

They are totally strapped but I hear that another administration is not imminent. I say 'another' as the invertebrate SFA reckon they are the same club that liquidated in 2012. If they do go into admin, we should thank the SFA for holding that view because it will cost them 25 points this time.

Anything on the jungle drums about whether they are close?

[Sammy7nil]

Not going to happen :rolleyes:

[Boyle89]

I think I would die of laughter if they went into admin (again/for the first time).

[lucky]

It would guarantee league reconstruction but sadly it's not going to happen

[Tinribs]

Dave King's off the radar millions will keep them going. Despite not putting 2 pence into the club yet.

[Centre Hawf]

To be honest, stories like this is beginning to sound repetitive and discussion of them seems desperate. We've had years of discussing teams finances like some sort of football edition of Dragons Den.

Let's get back to talking about what happens on the park. Besides, where would the fun be in pipping Der Hun to the title if they lose 25 points?

[Dashing Bob S]

To be honest, stories like this is beginning to sound repetitive and discussion of them seems desperate. We've had years of discussing teams finances like some sort of football edition of Dragons Den.

Let's get back to talking about what happens on the park. Besides, where would the fun be in pipping Der Hun to the title if they lose 25 points?

Personally, I would say that winning the title by 24 points in such circumstances would be terrific fun.

[BroxburnHibee]

No chance

[Ozyhibby]

Personally, I would say that winning the title by 24 points in such circumstances would be terrific fun.

Agree 100%


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

To be honest, stories like this is beginning to sound repetitive and discussion of them seems desperate. We've had years of discussing teams finances like some sort of football edition of Dragons Den.

Let's get back to talking about what happens on the park. Besides, where would the fun be in pipping Der Hun to the title if they lose 25 points?
We can multitask [emoji6]

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

http://linkis.com/dailyrecord.co.uk/cLbUS

December 9th King V Ashley in the High court in London
Also confirmation of Phil MacGiollabhains claim that they all attended Ashley's HQ.
He has a terrible writing style but very good sources.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Billy Whizz]

I see they have published their accounts.

[CropleyWasGod]

I see they have published their accounts.

Do you have a link, Billy? They're not on the Companies House site yet.

[wookie70]

Here is the link (http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-annual-results/) to the page their annual report is at the foot of the page. Another big loss of 7.5M

[hibbysam]

Do you have a link, Billy? They're not on the Companies House site yet.

£7.5m loss according to Chris McLaughlin, to June 2015. Down from £8.1m previous year lol.

[Oscar T Grouch]

Saw a few comments on Twitter and Facebook saying that the Ibrox Faithful are desperate for money and that the club could hit their 1st ever administration (formed 2012)

Anyone else heard these malicious rumours 😆😆

Saw a lot of this last night too. Did a bit of digging and it seems to have emanated from an SPFL news page which is very obviously a Celtic troll site. So doubt it is true.

[Billy Whizz]

Do you have a link, Billy? They're not on the Companies House site yet.

http://rangers.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AnnualReport2015.pdf

[Andy74]

Mr Struth should have kept a closer eye on his Sons. It certainly reads like they didn't spend an awful lot of time in English class at school.

I know his grandson pretty well. Lawyer and top guy actually.

All these Rangers groups have to have some mention of sons or loyal or order. Mental in this day and age.

[CropleyWasGod]

http://rangers.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AnnualReport2015.pdf
Thanks

Quick look over them, as I'm due elsewhere.

Audit Report , as I suspected, isn't qualified. They have clearly accepted the financial undertakings given by the Board. More fool them?

Balance Sheet total 43-44m. Almost exactly the same as the property value. That's not a good sign.

More later.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[greenginger]

2015 Financials.

£ 10 million loss on a £16 million turnover. Still a financial basketcase.

[Ozyhibby]

They need £2.5m to finish the season. £7.5m if Mike Ashley have anything to do with it. Chuck in a Green's expenses and Kings to defend himself in December and your looking at a big chunk of money required to get to May.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ballengeich]

The 2014-15 revenue included money from the Commonwealth games and also from SFA games played at Ibrox while Hampden was unavailable. That won't be available this season.

I'm surprised by the note to the accounts that up to £2.5m will be required to complete the current season. Given that the operating loss last season was £9m that seems rather low even though gate receipts are up and they've a smaller playing squad.

[greenginger]

The 2014-15 revenue included money from the Commonwealth games and also from SFA games played at Ibrox while Hampden was unavailable. That won't be available this season.

I'm surprised by the note to the accounts that up to £2.5m will be required to complete the current season. Given that the operating loss last season was £9m that seems rather low even though gate receipts are up and they've a smaller playing squad.


They also needed a share issue of £ 3.1 million, a transfer fee of £ 900K, Ashley's £ 5 million loan and the 3 bears £ 4 million loan.

They had £ 1 million to start the year, so they burned £ 12 million.

[Callum_62]

Cant they just deduct that 2.5 mill out of Kings 30 odd?

:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Accounts also show they have still not paid the £250k fine due to the league for their involvement in EBT's. A clear breach of the 5 way agreement.
How many other clubs would get away with not paying their fines?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[s.a.m]

Chris Musson ‏@camusson 47s48 seconds ago (https://twitter.com/camusson/status/661855531963912193) Ruling: Rangers' Murray era trust payments scheme was “a mere redirection of emoluments or earnings” and therefore "subject to income tax”

[Ozyhibby]

HMRC wins big tax case


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

“Furthermore, so far as the footballers are concerned, at least, it seems to us that if bonuses had not been paid they might well have taken their services elsewhere. We realise that the fifth respondent [RFC 2012] was in, potentially, a difficult financial position, competing for good players in an international market where other countries may not have the same rigorous approach to taxation as the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the law is clear: the payments made in respect of footballers were in our view derived from their employment and thus the payments were emoluments or earnings.”

Important paragraph from judgement. They cheated to get better players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

HMRC win appeal, link to statement ...


http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/9/1514/Advocate-General-for-Scotland-v-Murray-Group-Holdings-and-others

This part.

“It seems to us to be self-evident that the obligations in the side-letter were part of the employee’s employment package, and provided him with additional remuneration. They were negotiated as part of the total employment package…Once it is accepted that the bonus payments represented consideration for a footballer’s services qua employee, it inevitably follows that those payments represented emoluments or earnings of the footballer in question.

“Furthermore, so far as the footballers are concerned, at least, it seems to us that if bonuses had not been paid they might well have taken their services elsewhere. We realise that the fifth respondent [RFC 2012] was in, potentially, a difficult financial position, competing for good players in an international market where other countries may not have the same rigorous approach to taxation as the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the law is clear: the payments made in respect of footballers were in our view derived from their employment and thus the payments were emoluments or earnings.”

...shows Rangers cheated. Something the SFA has denied but was and is clearly against the rules then and now.

[easty]

So...what does this mean then? Whats this going to cost them?

Can they just appeal it?

[Ozyhibby]

So...what does this mean then? Whats this going to cost them?

Can they just appeal it?

Nothing to the new club but makes a mockery of the Lord nimmo smith hearings.
There is nobody left to appeal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[easty]

Nothing to the new club but makes a mockery of the Lord nimmo smith hearings.
There is nobody left to appeal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All seems a bit pointless if it's not going to cost the newco anything.

[Liberal Hibby]

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

[John_the_angus_hibby]

It may not have a fiscal impact on Sevco. But it's now official. Their club history is one of cheated titles. That they can never run from. Odious club indeed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HibeeMassive]

So...what does this mean then? Whats this going to cost them?

Can they just appeal it?

Won't mean anything to The Rangers, but it does provide evidence that OldCo did in fact cheat.

Also clears the way for HMRC to pursue other football clubs who have used the same/similar practises in the past. Think there will be a few clubs with squeeky bums this morning...

[Glesgahibby]

HMRC win appeal, link to statement ...


http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/9/1514/Advocate-General-for-Scotland-v-Murray-Group-Holdings-and-others

This part.

“It seems to us to be self-evident that the obligations in the side-letter were part of the employee’s employment package, and provided him with additional remuneration. They were negotiated as part of the total employment package…Once it is accepted that the bonus payments represented consideration for a footballer’s services qua employee, it inevitably follows that those payments represented emoluments or earnings of the footballer in question.

“Furthermore, so far as the footballers are concerned, at least, it seems to us that if bonuses had not been paid they might well have taken their services elsewhere. We realise that the fifth respondent [RFC 2012] was in, potentially, a difficult financial position, competing for good players in an international market where other countries may not have the same rigorous approach to taxation as the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the law is clear: the payments made in respect of footballers were in our view derived from their employment and thus the payments were emoluments or earnings.”

...shows Rangers cheated. Something the SFA has denied but was and is clearly against the rules then and now.
This proves players earnings registered with sfa where false!!
I wonder if any editor/reporter has the balls to confront the sfa with this.

[Kato]

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

In a word, yes.

[Kato]

I wonder if any editor/reporter has the balls to confront the sfa with this.

Not a chance of any Scottish journo saying a dicky-bird.

[magpie1892]

Anything on the jungle drums about whether they are close?

I'd love to be wrong but they're not close.

[Ozyhibby]

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

Absolutely, yes they should. It's up to the fans to apply the pressure on the SFA for a further investigation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CallumLaidlaw]

Absolutely, yes they should. It's up to the fans to apply the pressure on the SFA for a further investigation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And you can be guaranteed there will be plenty Celtic fans doing that right now.

[Weststandwanab]

All seems a bit pointless if it's not going to cost the newco anything.

It is not pointless for H.M.R.C. as they will set a precedent to pursue clubs Daan Sauff.


Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

Yes, without doubt will it happen no chance.


Not a chance of any Scottish journo saying a dicky-bird.

Indeed but maybe Mark Daly would give it a go - failing that Alex Tommo will

[Mcpakeisgod]

It only says they have won the Appeal to actually take it back to court, not actually won the verdict

[Ozyhibby]

It is not pointless for H.M.R.C. as they will set a precedent to pursue clubs Daan Sauff.



Yes, without doubt will it happen no chance.



Indeed but maybe Mark Daly would give it a go - failing that Alex Tommo will

Matt Slater at the BBC also pushing SFA for comment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

It is not pointless for H.M.R.C. as they will set a precedent to pursue clubs Daan Sauff.

Wasn't there already a precedent set with Arsenal?

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/sep/09/newsstory.sport9


This was conveniently ignored when it came to Rangers, up until today.

[Ozyhibby]

It only says they have won the Appeal to actually take it back to court, not actually won the verdict

No it doesn't. They have won the case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Libby Hibby]

They cheated, they knew back then they were cheating, we knew they were cheating, the SFA knew there were cheating due to Campbell Ogilvie's direct employment with both at the same time...this just merely confirms it

[Kato]

- failing that Alex Tommo will

As expected....

‏@alextomo 23m23 minutes ago
So Rangers are found to have won a series of titles whilst comprehensively cheating the tax man.

[Billy Whizz]

Will the players have to pay anything back, or was the liability against the company?
Remind me how much tax they avoided?

[CallumLaidlaw]

Will the players have to pay anything back, or was the liability against the company?
Remind me how much tax they avoided?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-ebts-players-what-secret-1736859

[Ozyhibby]

Will the players have to pay anything back, or was the liability against the company?
Remind me how much tax they avoided?

About £60m roughly.
Depends if HMRC want to Perdue them. They would need to prove they were part of the conspiracy. Players have the side letter to protect them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

@glasgowsgreenw 2m2 minutes ago
Scottish Cup Winners 2008/09

Rangers 0 - 3 Falkirk

[AndyM_1875]

About £60m roughly.
Depends if HMRC want to Perdue them. They would need to prove they were part of the conspiracy. Players have the side letter to protect them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you think there is the appetite for that?
This is a precedent, nothing more. Bar dipping their beaks into the Oldco Creditors Pot, HMRC are now finished with Rangers.

This legal ruling will be used to bash much bigger fish over the head with backdated tax demands though as always HMRC will run shy of taking on the real monsters like Vodafone who seem to sort their tax avoidance out by taking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for lunch.

[Just Alf]

Won't mean anything to The Rangers, but it does provide evidence that OldCo did in fact cheat.

Also clears the way for HMRC to pursue other football clubs who have used the same/similar practises in the past. Think there will be a few clubs with squeeky bums this morning...

Were the Yams not involved in similar? ..... And as they avoided Liquidation is there a chance they may be liable to some degree?

[AndyM_1875]

Were the Yams not involved in similar? ..... And as they avoided Liquidation is there a chance they may be liable to some degree?

Their CVA wiped that tax debt.

[Kato]

Players have the side letter to protect them.

I'm unsure as what the side letter protects against. If it protects them from paying tax on any monies earned via an EBT then so be it. That then also opens up a can of worms for their lawyers/agents as knowingly signing such a contract is against SFA rules.

[Glesgahibby]

Their CVA wiped that tax debt.
Only the tax debt legally owed at the time:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Do you think there is the appetite for that?
This is a precedent, nothing more. Bar dipping their beaks into the Oldco Creditors Pot, HMRC are now finished with Rangers.

This legal ruling will be used to bash much bigger fish over the head with backdated tax demands though as always HMRC will run shy of taking on the real monsters like Vodafone who seem to sort their tax avoidance out by taking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for lunch.

Similar scenario.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/23/footballers-tax-demands-hmrc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JimBHibees]

“Furthermore, so far as the footballers are concerned, at least, it seems to us that if bonuses had not been paid they might well have taken their services elsewhere. We realise that the fifth respondent [RFC 2012] was in, potentially, a difficult financial position, competing for good players in an international market where other countries may not have the same rigorous approach to taxation as the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the law is clear: the payments made in respect of footballers were in our view derived from their employment and thus the payments were emoluments or earnings.”

Important paragraph from judgement. They cheated to get better players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pretty sure there was a quote from David Murray saying that was exactly the reason for the scheme. In saying that I am not sure how that worked in Billy Dodds case. :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Nothing to the new club but makes a mockery of the Lord nimmo smith hearings.
There is nobody left to appeal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree. Carpet, brush, under.

[Glesgahibby]

Question!
Two possible answers!
How many times have we beaten rangers 3-0
since 2001:greengrin

[AndyM_1875]

Similar scenario.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/23/footballers-tax-demands-hmrc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think HMRC have bigger issues to deal with having just been handed an absolute kicking by the Public Accounts Committee.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34717035

[s.a.m]

Their CVA wiped that tax debt.

Did they not pay up for that before they went under, and so kept themselves in business a wee bit longer? Though my head is wasted with several years of football finance, and initials upon initials - I might have confused that with some other initial they gave in to HMRC on.:greengrin

[s.a.m]

@glasgowsgreenw 2m2 minutes ago
Scottish Cup Winners 2008/09

Rangers 0 - 3 Falkirk

:greengrin

[Weststandwanab]

Wasn't there already a precedent set with Arsenal?

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/sep/09/newsstory.sport9


This was conveniently ignored when it came to Rangers, up until today.

You are correct but Arsenal's resources are so much greater than that of Rangers, as was, it is easier, quicker and cheaper to establish the precedent against Rangers.


About £60m roughly.
Depends if HMRC want to Perdue them. They would need to prove they were part of the conspiracy. Players have the side letter to protect them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And as they will be established as loans will the recipients be pursued for repayment.

[Winston Ingram]

Isn't it amazing how many Sevconians have suddenly remembered that they are a new club?:greengrin

[Kato]

Did they not pay up for that before they went under, and so kept themselves in business a wee bit longer? Though my head is wasted with several years of football finance, and initials upon initials - I might have confused that with some other initial they gave in to HMRC on.:greengrin

They struck a deal to pay it off but didn't cough up.

[s.a.m]

They struck a deal to pay it of but didn't cough up.

:aok:

[Kato]

Isn't it amazing how many Sevconians have suddenly remembered that they are a new club?:greengrin

Slime is slippery.

[CB_NO3]

See their loss of 7.5 million, does that take in the debt of 5 million to Mash? I am assuming the answer is no but just wanted clarification. If Charles Green wins his court case that could really push them over the edge.

[Ozyhibby]

I think HMRC have bigger issues to deal with having just been handed an absolute kicking by the Public Accounts Committee.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34717035

Isn't that kicking for not being tough on Tax Evasion? [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AndyM_1875]

Isn't that kicking for not being tough on Tax Evasion? [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

and being a generally useless dysfunctional organization as many business owners will attest.:greengrin

[sambajustice]

Shouldn't Oldco now be stripped of the trophies and titles won while using EBTs?

If so that makes us champions the season we finished 3rd in the mid 90s!

:-D

[Ozyhibby]

If so that makes us champions the season we finished 3rd in the mid 90s!

:-D

Think EBT's scheme only started in 1999.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

@alextomo: @CQN yes - this surely places a questionmark over Nimmo Smith's judgement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MB62]

STV reporting that HMRC have won their Tax appeal against Rangers

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/1331969-court-of-session-rules-rangers-ebt-payments-were-emoluments-or-earnings/


So, if this is the indeed the case, now they have to decide

Are they Rangers or are they a brand new company with no connection to the old defunct lot?

Interesting :greengrin

[ballengeich]

See their loss of 7.5 million, does that take in the debt of 5 million to Mash. I am assuming the answer is no but just wanted clarification. If Charles Green wins his court case that could really push them over the edge.

The debt isn't included in the loss.

The loans were put into the company to cover the loss and allow them to continue trading.

[Just Alf]

Their CVA wiped that tax debt.

ah well...... was a thought :wink:

[Weststandwanab]

Think EBT's scheme only started in 1999.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In terms of the Big Tax Case they are dealing with 2001 to 2010.

[Ozyhibby]

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/1331979-rangers-await-panel-verdict-on-outstanding-lord-nimmo-smith-ebt-fine/



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[givescotlandfreedom]

A great opportunity to pay the £60m owed to the tax man and pretend they're oldco with an admission of officially cheating their way to honours.

[givescotlandfreedom]

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

[Mikey09]

I can hear the stampede of backtracking right now from there horrible fans, Glasgow media and the welts on Sportsound!! :faf:

[CraigHibee]

They are indeed a NEW team,dont let the cavemen from the west tell you any differently, i think it's their low intelligence level which makes them believe they are the same team.

its like your beloved pet labrador, sadly died so you get a new one, you may call it the same name however, it is infact NEW, it isn't the same dog :greengrin

dirty smelly huns

[CropleyWasGod]

And as they will be established as loans will the recipients be pursued for repayment.

Don't think that's the case. The judgement establishes the payments as emoluments, not loans. Therefore they can't be repayable.

[southsider]

So HMRC win the big tax case. Old Co RFC are no more so no money can be recovered. But.... were Old Co directors guilty of fraud as they knowingly used an illegal scheme to avoid paying Income Tax. Can said Directors be charged with Tax Evasion ? DM could end up in the Big L with his pals Whyte, Green & King. Now that would funny

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd love to be wrong but they're not close.

So you think they will raise the £2.5m they need to see out the season?

[MB62]

They are indeed a NEW team,dont let the cavemen from the west tell you any differently, i think it's their low intelligence level which makes them believe they are the same team.

its like your beloved pet labrador, sadly died so you get a new one, you may call it the same name however, it is infact NEW, it isn't the same dog :greengrin

dirty smelly huns

So will they now be forced in to issuing an apology to the clubs who printed in their programmes that the old rangers had died and this was a new club (or something to that affect). I remember last season The Rangers threatening legal action over any club or paper that suggested they were a new club.

[CraigHibee]

So will they now be forced in to issuing an apology to the clubs who printed in their programmes that the old rangers had died and this was a new club (or something to that affect). I remember last season The Rangers threatening legal action over any club or paper that suggested they were a new club.

they won't admit to it bud even though everyone elses knows the script, imagine a full 2 page spread of apology from sevco in the paper, now that would be hillarious :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

So HMRC win the big tax case. Old Co RFC are no more so no money can be recovered. But.... were Old Co directors guilty of fraud as they knowingly used an illegal scheme to avoid paying Income Tax. Can said Directors be charged with Tax Evasion ? DM could end up in the Big L with his pals Whyte, Green & King. Now that would funny

1. OldCo aren't "no more". They are still in liquidation. The judgement means that HMRC will get more of the pot than they would have if the case had gone the other way. Conversely, the smaller creditors will get less.

2. the fraud case is a possibility. :agree:

[chinaman]

as it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, rangers didn't earn them.this,this, this..won't ever happen sadly ,cos all the cowards running the show.

[Ozyhibby]

So you think they will raise the £2.5m they need to see out the season?

It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You may be right. I'm not sure whether they have assumed all of that in their sums. Let's hope not. :greengrin

[Hibs90]

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

[Mikey09]

It's £2.5m plus a possible £400k fine to spfl, £500k for Charlie's legal fees and Dave King and possibly Mike Ashley legal fees for contempt case in December. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Come on Ozzy... All that's not a problem with Dave King's millions at the ready! He's rolling in it... I mean he would never lie about anything, would he?! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

.... that's a 10-pager which has been done to death a few times on here. :greengrin

[kaimendhibs]

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

Couldn't agree more!

[AndyM_1875]

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

[steakbake]

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

I bet when the deal was stitched up, they weren't expecting the Rangers to lose the big tax case...

[Moulin Yarns]

As expected....

‏@alextomo 23m23 minutes ago
So Rangers are found to have won a series of titles whilst comprehensively cheating the tax man.


He doesn't hang about. Good man

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/

[CropleyWasGod]

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

That's still to be decided. Rangers appealled, remember.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/1331979-rangers-await-panel-verdict-on-outstanding-lord-nimmo-smith-ebt-fine/

[ACLeith]

So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 😀

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.

[KeithTheHibby]

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

Not that I am sticking up for them however surely they were cheating the minute they went into administration?

Same could be said for the yams, Dundee, Livi, Motherwell etc. who were paying players without having the money to do so?

[CropleyWasGod]

So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

[AndyM_1875]

That's still to be decided. Rangers appealled, remember.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/1331979-rangers-await-panel-verdict-on-outstanding-lord-nimmo-smith-ebt-fine/

I stand corrected, but looks likely a substantial fine will be delivered.

[KeithTheHibby]

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not that I am sticking up for them however surely they were cheating the minute they went into administration?

Same could be said for the yams, Dundee, Livi, Motherwell etc. who were paying players without having the money to do so?

They were able to pay players whilst in administration, out of the funds they had available.

[AndyM_1875]

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

Just to note that David Murray used EBTs in other bits of his Murray Group companies, most of whom he liquidated earlier on this year leaving only a trail of bank debt.

[Seveno]

Is it time to create three different threads to help us keep up with all the Rangers/ Sevco stories:

1. Rangers liquidation & Big tax case.
2. Sevco v Mash
3. Imminent Administration of Sevco

We might need a fourth for all the other madcap stories from the Big Hoose.

[Moulin Yarns]

As it says on the tin. Now we officially know they've been cheating for various honours, they need to have them stripped from their (now stopped) history. Even if not given to another club, Rangers didn't earn them.

By my reckoning they won the league by cheating in

2002/03 ahead of Celtic
2004/05 ahead of Celtic
2008/09 ahead of Celtic

The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Celtic
2002/03 beating Dundee
2007/08 beating Queen of the South
2008/09 beating Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Celtic
2004/05 beating Motherwell
2007/08 beating Dundee Utd

[PatHead]

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in easily via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

I would expect that they will have already included expected income from gates when calculating the shortfall just as they will have estimated expenses.

Maybe they will get more from sold strips than they estimated. :greengrin

[ACLeith]

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.

Does that not presume what the advice was though? Maybe they were told it was wrong and chose to ignore it? Just guessing mind :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

That's over and above receipts.

"The forecast identifies that the group will require up to £2.5m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season
2015/2016 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due".

Also:-

"The forecast indicates that an initial tranche of funds will be required in December 2015."

[Moulin Yarns]

I would expect that they will have already included expected income from gates when calculating the shortfall just as they will have estimated expenses.

Maybe they will get more from soiled strips than they estimated. :greengrin

Sorted that for you :wink:

[PatHead]

By my reckoning they won the league by cheating in

2002/03 ahead of Celtic
2004/05 ahead of Celtic
2008/09 ahead of Celtic

The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Celtic
2002/03 beating Dundee
2007/08 beating Queen of the South
2008/09 beating Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Celtic
2004/05 beating Motherwell
2007/08 beating Dundee Utd

Personally I think trophies should be withheld. It would be unfair on clubs who were beaten in earlier rounds otherwise.

[CropleyWasGod]

Does that not presume what the advice was though? Maybe they were told it was wrong and chose to ignore it? Just guessing mind :wink:

Going back to the BBC (?) documentary a couple of years ago, the scheme was devised by an ex-porn star, who seemed to take full responsibility for it.

However, yours is a fair point. The Courts would have to prove it, though.

In one corner, a porn star. In the other, a Hun. :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Tom English getting it tight on twitter for calling them cheats.

It's a hoot!

[ballengeich]

So they need 2.5m to see the season out? I am quite sure they will pull that in via gate receipts.

Say 12 league games to go, 10,000 walk ups at £20 a pop gives you 200k per game. Will be tight however I reckon they will manage it. Unfortunately.

I think that the 2.5m is in addition to the income they're expecting during the remainder of the season i.e. after the future walk ups have handed over the cash.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a scheme set up akin to FOH which would lead to the supporters coughing up a lot of the deficit in exchange for a promise of shares at some future date. Once that's taken into account, I think one or more of the directors (not likely to be King) will make up the deficit even though I think the total required will be more than 2.5m.

Like you I think they'll scrape through to the end of the season. Finding funds for the warchest the fans will be expecting next season and doing up the neglected building maintenance will be a new challenge.

It's on a knife edge so I may change my expectation if some new nasty emerges in the next few months. Ashley insisting on his loan being repaid could scupper the whole shebang.

[Kato]

So have I got this right? EBTs were a tax avoidance loophole back then but the way it was implemented - regular payments to effectively top up wages - was illegal?

What are the chances DM was innocent and did not know this? More chance of TRFC winning this season's League Cup 

Remember he said he was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah' right! Hopefully the upcoming court case washes that dirty linen in public, CG and CW know where those 'bodies are buried'.



One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.


As far as the law of the land is concerned that might be up to the courts to decide.

However the under the SFA rules the side contracts/letters, upping the wages of the employee, are not allowed. All remuneration must declared to them. SDM, agents, lawyers, players avoided declaring the side letters to the SFA.

If they thought they were legal, why not declare them to the SFA?

[s.a.m]

It does have a financial implication.
Through the 5 way agreement and as a result of their uses of EBTs as decreed in the Lord Nimmo Smith verdict they have to stump up 400k to the SPFL.

They don't seem to have that money just now and given their other problems it might explain my a Jambo pal of mine lumped on Hibs to win the Championship last night.

Is his name Bryan? :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Personally I think trophies should be withheld. It would be unfair on clubs who were beaten in earlier rounds otherwise.


Ok, taking the league out of the equation.


The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Berwick Rangers, Hibernian, Forfar, Partick Thistle and Celtic
2002/03 beating Arbroath, Ayr Utd, Dunfrmline, Motherwell and Dundee
2007/08 beating East Stirling, Hibernian, Partick Thistle, St Johnstone and Queen of the South
2008/09 beating St Johnstone, Forfar, Hamilton, St Mirren and Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Airdrie, Ross County, Celtic and Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Hibernian, Dunfermline, Hearts and Celtic
2004/05 beating Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee Utd and Motherwell
2007/08 beating East Fife, Moterwell, Hearts and Dundee Utd

[ACLeith]

Going back to the BBC (?) documentary a couple of years ago, the scheme was devised by an ex-porn star, who seemed to take full responsibility for it.

However, yours is a fair point. The Courts would have to prove it, though.

In one corner, a porn star. In the other, a Hun. :greengrin

I'd forgotten about that CWG, what a tag team that would be :greengrin. Presumably could only be proven with documentary evidence? I do wonder if it exists, no point before the BTC was settled, maybe not worth it anyway now. Depending how the CW/CG/Uncle Tom Cobley and all case develops, DM's (I simply refuse to use SDM!) integrity and standing in society may plummet even further and this could be added to it - here's hoping :agree:.

[Ozyhibby]

@Oldfirmfacts1: As the fallout from the HMRC verdict continues, Rangers fans insist they're a new club and Celtic fans insist it's the same club.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mentalhibee]

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

Is a 25 point deduction likely?

[GordonHFC]

Going back to the BBC (?) documentary a couple of years ago, the scheme was devised by an ex-porn star, who seemed to take full responsibility for it.

However, yours is a fair point. The Courts would have to prove it, though.

In one corner, a porn star. In the other, a Hun. :greengrin

In one corner a despicable pervert who prays on the lowlife of society gaining his immoral earnings. In the other a porn star.

[JimBHibees]

In one corner a despicable pervert who prays on the lowlife of society gaining his immoral earnings. In the other a porn star.

:faf::faf:

[Hibs90]

Is a 25 point deduction likely?

Probably not but ssh

[southsider]

Old Co can appeal to a higher court can they not ? But, as my auld granny used to say "whey pays for that bawheid". But if CW can get legal aid.......

[GreenLake]

In one corner a despicable pervert who prays on the lowlife of society gaining his immoral earnings. In the other a porn star.

:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Jim Traynors last column where he has a go at the RangersTaxCase blog.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-traynor-why-this-is-my-last-ever-newspaper-1470050

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HibbyScott]

Ok, taking the league out of the equation.


The Scottish Cup in

2001/02 beating Berwick Rangers, Hibernian, Forfar, Partick Thistle and Celtic
2002/03 beating Arbroath, Ayr Utd, Dunfrmline, Motherwell and Dundee
2007/08 beating East Stirling, Hibernian, Partick Thistle, St Johnstone and Queen of the South
2008/09 beating St Johnstone, Forfar, Hamilton, St Mirren and Falkirk

The League Cup in

2001/02 beating Airdrie, Ross County, Celtic and Ayr Utd
2002/03 beating Hibernian, Dunfermline, Hearts and Celtic
2004/05 beating Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee Utd and Motherwell
2007/08 beating East Fife, Moterwell, Hearts and Dundee Utd

I think it's only fair that we get given that particular cup...:agree:

[Steve20]

so this has no financial impact on Rangers because they were liquidated, fair enough so if that is the case then surely they can no longer claim to be Rangers anymore? Also funny to note the 2.5m needed to finish the season, 25 point deduction coming up!

Not a chance they go into administration this season. They'll get the 2.5 million easily to see them through.

[Weststandwanab]

Mark Daly's take on things

https://t.co/i8j3bJUnn5

[Jim44]

Not a chance they go into administration this season. They'll get the 2.5 million easily to see them through.

:agree: Even as a last resort, their support would easily raise £2.5m if it meant promotion to the Scottish Premiership. Assuming that a 'gift' such as that would be legal.

[Ozyhibby]

Not a chance they go into administration this season. They'll get the 2.5 million easily to see them through.

And if it's double that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree: Even as a last resort, their support would easily raise £2.5m if it meant promotion to the Scottish Premiership. Assuming that a 'gift' such as that would be legal.

Problem is, they need the "first tranche" (however much that is) next month.

[Weststandwanab]

Problem is, they need the "first tranche" (however much that is) next month.

The players rare paid on last Thursday of a month so that is only 22 days away !

[southern hibby]

:agree: Even as a last resort, their support would easily raise £2.5m if it meant promotion to the Scottish Premiership. Assuming that a 'gift' such as that would be legal.

Even if it isn't legal they'll still take the gift and argue for numerous years that it is legal ( just like the EBT scheme that they've just been to court over.

I can honestly say I detest them with every fibre of my being honestly I truly do.
If I play monopoly and win by cheating and everyone accuses me of cheating then I can argue till I'm blue in the face BUT even though I argue deep down I know I cheated. Make no mistake THEY KNOW IT TOO.

GGTTH

[magpie1892]

So you think they will raise the £2.5m they need to see out the season?

I do - I think they'll get it from Ashley.

[ACLeith]

I do - I think they'll get it from Ashley.

What have they left to offer as security?

[Smartie]

What have they left to offer as security?

I'm sure he'd settle for David Cunningham King's nut sack.

[PatHead]

I do - I think they'll get it from Ashley.

Maybe they could sell a player or two to raise funds and return some of the loan players to cut expenditure which would help them live within their means. They might make some inroads to shortfall then.

Now there is a novel idea.

[GordonHFC]

I'm sure he'd settle for David Cunningham King's nut sack.

On a spike with him still attached :greengrin

[brog]

Jim Traynors last column where he has a go at the RangersTaxCase blog.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-traynor-why-this-is-my-last-ever-newspaper-1470050

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Possibly the worst & most self congratulatory article ever written by a Scottish so called journo, & that's some achievement! He has the nerve to question others' integrity re Sevco just before decamping to em Sevco! What an absolute roaster!

[Treadstone]

Possibly the worst & most self congratulatory article ever written by a Scottish so called journo, & that's some achievement! He has the nerve to question others' integrity re Sevco just before decamping to em Sevco! What an absolute roaster!

Not forgetting the please give me a job emails to Craig Whyte.

[Jack]

Do we know if the £2.5m includes money set aside for the various court cases and fines that may arise?

Does it include the £400k to the Scottish fitba authorities?

There's no mention of Paul Gascoigne on the EBT list which I find surprising given that he must have been among the highest paid players ever! Was his money put behind the bar?

If/when the Lying King gets jailed will he time behind bars count against the time he's allowed to stay in the UK for tax purposes?

[AndyM_1875]

Do we know if the £2.5m includes money set aside for the various court cases and fines that may arise?

Does it include the £400k to the Scottish fitba authorities?

There's no mention of Paul Gascoigne on the EBT list which I find surprising given that he must have been among the highest paid players ever! Was his money put behind the bar?

If/when the Lying King gets jailed will he time behind bars count against the time he's allowed to stay in the UK for tax purposes?

Gazza was sold in March 1998, EBTs did not start till 2001.

[magpie1892]

What have they left to offer as security?

Castle Greyskull?

[magpie1892]

Possibly the worst & most self congratulatory article ever written by a Scottish so called journo, & that's some achievement! He has the nerve to question others' integrity re Sevco just before decamping to em Sevco! What an absolute roaster!

I'm surprised that the sports editor let that through. Even if I didn't detest TRIFC as I do, if that landed on my desk I would have spiked it.

[delbert]

Is his name Bryan? :greengrin

Yes, and so is his wife!

[CropleyWasGod]

Do we know if the £2.5m includes money set aside for the various court cases and fines that may arise? No, we don't.

Does it include the £400k to the Scottish fitba authorities? As above.

There's no mention of Paul Gascoigne on the EBT list which I find surprising given that he must have been among the highest paid players ever! Was his money put behind the bar? See Andy's reply above.

If/when the Lying King gets jailed will he time behind bars count against the time he's allowed to stay in the UK for tax purposes? Yes, it would be time in the UK.

.

[AndyM_1875]

I'm surprised that the sports editor let that through. Even if I didn't detest TRIFC as I do, if that landed on my desk I would have spiked it.

Jim Traynor was the senior Sports Editor at the Daily Record at the time it was written, he had final say.

Ultimately he was responsible for all the football stories at the Record including changing the content of articles written by other journalists and issuing the copywriters with strict instructions.

[magpie1892]

Jim Traynor was the senior Sports Editor at the Daily Record at the time it was written, he had final say.

Ultimately he was responsible for all the football stories at the Record.

Then the editor should have spiked it. Shocking abuse of status - then running away the next day.

[Jim44]

The £2.5m needed to see out the season was reported on BBC Newsdrive. I think I heard them say that Sevco are confident that this sum will be easily met by existing investors.

[AndyM_1875]

Then the editor should have spiked it. Shocking abuse of status - then running away the next day.

I agree except that Traynor was a hugely intimidating figure at the Record and despite his bluff Uncle Jim radio personality, the truth was that he ruled the Sports Department at the Record by aggression and intimidation. This was his resignation letter, it was going in regardless.

[CropleyWasGod]

The £2.5m needed to see out the season was reported on BBC Newsdrive. I think I heard them say that Sevco are confident that this sum will be easily met by existing investors.

... which is lifted directly from the accounts.

There's no indication as to how it's made up, though, and how much of it will be needed next month.

[magpie1892]

I agree except that Traynor was a hugely intimidating figure at the Record and despite his bluff Uncle Jim radio personality, the truth was that he ruled the Sports Department at the Record by aggression and intimidation. This was his resignation letter, it was going in regardless.

Oh, I know. I've met him a few times and he's an extremely unpleasant individual but the editor should never have let that pass.

[jacomo]

Jim Traynors last column where he has a go at the RangersTaxCase blog.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-traynor-why-this-is-my-last-ever-newspaper-1470050

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So much self regard. So little talent. The humble-bragging, bilious rage and sheer spite are just hilarious.

Journalist schools should use this as a great example of how NOT to write an article, especially from one so experienced.

[jgl07]

Do we know if the £2.5m includes money set aside for the various court cases and fines that may arise?

Does it include the £400k to the Scottish fitba authorities?

There's no mention of Paul Gascoigne on the EBT list which I find surprising given that he must have been among the highest paid players ever! Was his money put behind the bar?

If/when the Lying King gets jailed will he time behind bars count against the time he's allowed to stay in the UK for tax purposes?
Gascogne would not feature as he left Rangers in 1998. The EBT case only relates to 2001-10.

[Dashing Bob S]

I do - I think they'll get it from Ashley.

If so that would be a desperate and humiliating last resort, allowing him tighten his grip further on their club. Whoever signed that deal with Sports Direct really sold that club down the river.

[Bostonhibby]

SPFL to make a statement that it cares about " sporting integrity" and all its other members by quickly removing all the honours gained by cheating? They could do themselves and Scottish football a real favour if they really wanted to start to repair its image.

Don't hold your breath

[magpie1892]

If so that would be a desperate and humiliating last resort, allowing him tighten his grip further on their club. Whoever signed that deal with Sports Direct really sold that club down the river.

Ashley's a monumental **** but he's also a businessman par excellence, especially when it comes to desperate, 'distressed' brands, and hun obviously fall into that category. Then you have to factor in the sheer amount of undiluted spite that instructs the way he does business - wherever he's not wanted, that's where he does his most nefarious work.

He's got the hun by the nads, wants King in jail (which is probably where he belongs, to be fair) and so I reckon MA will pony up the necessary £ to get hun to the end of the season. No-one else has it, and no-one will lend to them - so hun will have to pay wonga-esque levels of interest; not necessarily monetarily, but MA will be able to name his terms.

It's going to get very messy indeed and I can't wait.

[YehButNoBut]

Statement from Rangers

CLUB STATEMENT
Rangers Football Club would like to correct some misleading information that has been circulating on what is described as the “Big Tax Case”.

For the avoidance of doubt, Rangers have not lost the case. There is no question of any liability impacting on our Club, its history or any member of the Rangers International Football Club plc Group.

... The Rangers Football Club and the entities which currently own and manage it are not party to these proceedings nor do we have any say in what happens. The proceedings are a matter for those affected by them.

We note that the assessments for tax which were the subject for appeal and which are referred to as the Big Tax Case relate to Murray Group Holdings Limited, Murray Group Management Limited, The Premier Group Property Limited, GM Mining Limited and RFC 2012 PLC (in liquidation).

[Bostonhibby]

Statement from Rangers

CLUB STATEMENT
Rangers Football Club would like to correct some misleading information that has been circulating on what is described as the “Big Tax Case”.

For the avoidance of doubt, Rangers have not lost the case. There is no question of any liability impacting on our Club, its history or any member of the Rangers International Football Club plc Group.

... The Rangers Football Club and the entities which currently own and manage it are not party to these proceedings nor do we have any say in what happens. The proceedings are a matter for those affected by them.

We note that the assessments for tax which were the subject for appeal and which are referred to as the Big Tax Case relate to Murray Group Holdings Limited, Murray Group Management Limited, The Premier Group Property Limited, GM Mining Limited and RFC 2012 PLC (in liquidation).

Excellent, so they are a new club, why would anyone want to lay claim to the history of the club that blatantly built its successes on the back of cheating? Now the courts have sorted that out it's surely best for all if all aspects of the now defunct club are left in the gutter:confused:

[Deansy]

One would have to prove that SDM, and others, set out with the intention of defrauding HMRC. Given that, as EBT's were an accepted way of tax avoidance at that time, that would be difficult. RFC would say, rightly IMO, that they relied on professional advice.

What they have done is neglectful, which is an HMRC "offence". However, it's a big leap from there to it being criminal.


I seem to remember the Hun's 'Financial-adviser' re the 'EBT's was some disgraced, ex-lawyer who was now working in the porn-industry ?.

[CropleyWasGod]

I seem to remember the Hun's 'Financial-adviser' re the 'EBT's was some disgraced, ex-lawyer who was now working in the porn-industry ?.
Yep. See post 30491

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[pundy man]

Lose the debt but keep the trophies and name. They and their Edinburgh cousins have no shame. They will be begging for Ashley to bale them out once again very soon. :hibees

[grunt]

Andrew Smith in the Scotsman http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/andrew-smith-rangers-were-heading-for-rocks-before-craig-whyte-1-3938028#axzz3qbHP8pxh


Andrew Smith: Rangers were heading for rocks before Craig Whyte

A FEW myths were exploded, a few matters set straight and a few more made altogether more complicated by the Court of Session’s decision yesterday to uphold the appeal of HMRC that Rangers ought to have paid tax on their Employee Benefits Trusts.
For too long, too many followers of the Ibrox club have attempted to paint the “oldco” Rangers’ demise as being the sole responsibility of Craig Whyte. They have sought to promote the narrative that, had he never appeared on the scene, Rangers would not have suffered liquidation and been forced to reform in the Third Division.

Murray found the club unsellable to all but Whyte because of the so-called ‘big tax case’ that hung over it. It would have continued to cast a shadow until today
Yesterday’s ruling by the Court of Session in Edinburgh lays bare that Rangers were heading for the rocks long before anyone in the Scottish game had ever heard of Whyte. It also makes plain that, had David Murray remained in charge and not sold the club to Whyte for £1 in 2011, the old Ibrox club was still well and truly finished. All that would have been different would have been the timing of its immolation.


Murray found the club unsellable to all but Whyte because of the so-called “big tax case” that hung over it. It would have continued to cast a shadow until today... when a £40 million tax bill would have been renewed. Murray, and his bankers, would not/could not have stumped up for that, administration would have followed and no CVA could have been forthcoming because HMRC, the main creditor, votes against these in football as a matter of course.


It was a case of persistence paying off for HMRC. Murray had earlier won a First Tier Tribunal in 2012, on a 2-1 majority, before HMRC largely lost its first appeal in July 2014, but a change of legal tactics saw it succeed. A counter-appeal remains possible but it is hard to escape the sense that Murray is responisble for Rangers’ demise. Tax and national insurance should have been paid on the sums players at the club received as EBTs between 2001/02 and 2009/10.
There could be a whole heap of fall-out from yesterday’s “common sense” judgment, bearing in mind that current chairman Dave King and Paul Murray both sat on the board that sanctioned the EBT scheme.
The independent commission chaired by Lord Nimmo Smith two years ago into the use of EBTs by Rangers – and the failure of the club to disclose side-letters and payments – arrived as something of a fudge because the first tier tax tribunal into Rangers’ EBT use that delivered a verdict in 2012 had stopped short of declaring the “loans” as sham.
Lord Nimmo Smith found Rangers guilty of a “deliberate” breaking of the, then, SPL, and SFA rules through failing to disclose to these bodies all payments made to players. A fine of £250,000 was imposed. Yet, Lord Nimmo danced on the head of a pin to avoid stating that Rangers had cheated between 2001 and 2010, even though that would be the “common sense” understanding of deliberately breaking the rules.



Rangers wriggled off the hook over the side-
letters potentially leading to improper player registrations, which could have caused results obtained with these players to be wiped.
In the first instance, they did so because it emerged that the SFA, possibly in order to protect itself from any delayed litigation, would not essentially “back date” voiding of players’ registrations.
Looking at this issue of legitimacy in a broader sense, Nimmo Smith is again made to look rather unconvincing. Rangers’ title wins during their EBT years did not come into question, he said in 2013, because the club gained no sporting advantage from failing to disclose the payments and accompanying side letters as, in the main, these did not contravene tax law.
Now, it has transpired that they did. The only conclusion to be drawn is that Rangers gained a considerable sporting advantage by withholding monies due to the Revenue on a widespread, systematic basis.



By using EBTs they were able to recruit and retain players they would have otherwise been unable to afford.
There is likely to be little appetite for putting right the wrongs of a morally dubious scheme that sought to spare rich individuals from meeting their tax obligations. However, there should be.
At the very least, the titles Rangers won in 2003, 2005, 2009 and 2010 should be declared void. These honours were won in the most dishonourable fashion.

And, almost as if yesterday was considered a bad day to bury bad news, the current Rangers announced losses of £7.5m for the year to June

[grunt]

Statement from Rangers

CLUB STATEMENT

The proceedings are a matter for those affected by them.Like the whole of Scottish football, namely the fans of those clubs who were cheated?

[jacomo]

Lose the debt but keep the trophies and name. They and their Edinburgh cousins have no shame. They will be begging for Ashley to bale them out once again very soon. :hibees

I think I need Jim Traynor to explain to me how the unpleasant financial history is 'nothing to do' with Rangers, but they own the history they like?

[Onion]

Morally bankrupt club which cheated taxpayers now being managed by a City Spiv and overseen by a glib and shameless lier. How apt.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think I need Jim Traynor to explain to me how the unpleasant financial history is 'nothing to do' with Rangers, but they own the history they like?

Traynor's mob have departed the scene by all accounts. Whatever you think of the fat slug, he'd have come up with a better wording than that amateur hour effort.

[JeMeSouviens]

Andrew Smith in the Scotsman http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/andrew-smith-rangers-were-heading-for-rocks-before-craig-whyte-1-3938028#axzz3qbHP8pxh

Emperor in no clothes shocker. :rolleyes:

[greenginger]

That's over and above receipts.

"The forecast identifies that the group will require up to £2.5m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season
2015/2016 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due".

Also:-

"The forecast indicates that an initial tranche of funds will be required in December 2015."


I can't get my head round these figures.

£ 2.5 m required to see the season out, starting in December. Say 6 monthly tranches of £ 400,000. Are the walk-ups etc. going to make up the balance of £ 1.4 million a month ( assuming an average spend of £ 1.8 million/month )

I also see in note 32 to the accounts RIFC are contesting the SPFL fine of £ 250 K plus £ 150 K costs for their use of EBTs.
Seemingly it went to an SFA tribunal set for 29/30 October.

Never heard anything about that :confused: Still it should be another £ 400,000 for the pledgers to fund.

[Platinum Scotty]

Traynor's mob have departed the scene by all accounts. Whatever you think of the fat slug, he'd have come up with a better wording than that amateur hour effort.

No matter what skilled "wordsmith" they come up with, I am still at a loss to understand how they can be unconnected to the shenanigans that went on but still claim all the titles etc they won whilst benefiting from said cheating.....

[grunt]

Notice of Rangers AGM. According to Twitter, resolution 11 seeks to remove Ashley's voting rights.

https://t.co/hHCyQkbTNT (https://t.co/hHCyQkbTNT)

[CropleyWasGod]

I can't get my head round these figures.

£ 2.5 m required to see the season out, starting in December. Say 6 monthly tranches of £ 400,000. Are the walk-ups etc. going to make up the balance of £ 1.4 million a month ( assuming an average spend of £ 1.8 million/month )

I also see in note 32 to the accounts RIFC are contesting the SPFL fine of £ 250 K plus £ 150 K costs for their use of EBTs.
Seemingly it went to an SFA tribunal set for 29/30 October.

Never heard anything about that :confused: Still it should be another £ 400,000 for the pledgers to fund.

Ozy posted a link yesterday to a bit in the Record (?) about the Tribunal. The verdict is "awaited".

As for the £2.5m, we could perm anything from that. There is no indication as to how it's made up, what it's needed for, and whether the fines, legal fees, Dave's first class travel etc etc have been allowed for.

[Spike Mandela]

No matter what skilled "wordsmith" they come up with, I am still at a loss to understand how they can be unconnected to the shenanigans that went on but still claim all the titles etc they won whilst benefiting from said cheating.....

I suspect a lot of 'smoke and mirrors' will have went on in the notorious 5 way agreement that was struck with Charles Green's Sevco vehicle.

The authorities did a lot of fudging things for Rangers and if memory serves Our Mr Petrie was in the midst of this agreement..

[CropleyWasGod]

Notice of Rangers AGM. According to Twitter, resolution 11 seeks to remove Ashley's voting rights.

https://t.co/hHCyQkbTNT (https://t.co/hHCyQkbTNT)

Shirley that's badly worded:-

" if he is involved in any capacity whatsoever in the management or administration of a Club, or has any power whatsoever to
influence the management or administration of a Club"

We all know what its meant to mean, but, at face value, wouldn't that include King and the Bears?

[Platinum Scotty]

I suspect a lot of 'smoke and mirrors' will have went on in the notorious 5 way agreement that was struck with Charles Green's Sevco vehicle.

The authorities did a lot of fudging things for Rangers and if memory serves Our Mr Petrie was in the midst of this agreement..

I remember the "behind closed doors" agreement but that surely was based on them being, innocent (hahahaha) of the said crime and that any such agreement would be void.....listen to me, as if the suits would admit they got it wrong and do the right thing - sorry

[grunt]

Shirley that's badly worded:-

" if he is involved in any capacity whatsoever in the management or administration of a Club, or has any power whatsoever to
influence the management or administration of a Club"

We all know what its meant to mean, but, at face value, wouldn't that include King and the Bears?I think this is the all important clause


the Directors of the Company shall be entitled at their sole discretion and without issuing reasons therefor to determine whether or not a member does have such involvement in or power to influence a Club.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think this is the all important clause

Nice one.

I'm sure Ashley's legal guys will be all over it. I smell another Court date coming up.

On that score, there are so many Court cases coming up. Can someone (looking at Ozy) keep a Hibs.net diary of what's happening when? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

12/13th November is Charlie's days in court over payment of his legal fees. Looks a slam dunk in Charlie's favour but who knows with these things.
9th December is Ashley v King over Kings alleged contempt of court. No idea how it will go but I wouldn't bet against Ashley.
Both of these hearing will cost Sevco money to defend themselves and if the outcomes are unfavourable cost them a lot more.
All this is over and above the £2.5m they say the need till seasons end.
If they try to stop Ashley voting then that will be another trip to court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

12/13th November is Charlie's days in court over payment of his legal fees. Looks a slam dunk in Charlie's favour but who knows with these things.
9th December is Ashley v King over Kings alleged contempt of court. No idea how it will go but I wouldn't bet against Ashley.
Both of these hearing will cost Sevco money to defend themselves and if the outcomes are unfavourable cost them a lot more.
All this is over and above the £2.5m they say the need till seasons end.
If they try to stop Ashley voting then that will be another trip to court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you know this, or are you just assuming? Please say the former.

[Ozyhibby]

Charlie Greens case is a buggy in that it could end up costing millions given the length of the case. If the judge rules in Greens favour then I think the judge would find it difficult to cap the costs given the seriousness of the charges Green faces. He will surely be entitled to the best defence available given that he faces 10 year in jail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk