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Ozyhibby
09-02-2012, 08:53 PM
Sometime in the near future it is likely that Rangers FC will cease to be and a new Rangers will bid to re-enter the SPL. This will open up opportunities for the other ten clubs in the SPL to restructure the league in ways that would be good for all of Scottish football. My wish list would include:-

1. A salary cap. Set at about £5m per season this would ensure a much fairer league with all 12 teams capable of winning. At this level nobody outside the old firm and Hearts(I suspect they would see £5m as to high as of next season) would see a drop in the standard of players they could sign. It's a win win for all other teams.
2. TV revenue to be split amongst all clubs equally.
3. The new Rangers must set aside £5m per season for ten years towards youth development at the SFA. This is a must otherwise they will be entering the league debt free after cheating the tax payer and all the other SPL clubs over the last ten years.
This is a one time opportunity that the clubs have to change the game for the better and we should be lobbying Hibs now in order to make sure they act in the fans best interests.

soupy
09-02-2012, 08:59 PM
The only problem there is how are the Yams supposed to win the champions league whilst being held back by a wage cap :-)

CallumLaidlaw
09-02-2012, 08:59 PM
Why would they be allowed to re-enter the SPL? They can start in the 3rd.

BUT, I like your suggestions. Especially the first 2.

Ozyhibby
09-02-2012, 09:07 PM
They probably will have to start at the bottom but there is no reason the clubs can't press on with the reforms as without Rangers in the league the old firm don't have their two blocking votes.

Sir David Gray
09-02-2012, 09:15 PM
Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

HibeeSince85
09-02-2012, 09:20 PM
Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

I'm not as sure as you on that!

blackpoolhibs
09-02-2012, 09:27 PM
I mentioned this on another thread, if they go pop, they will get back somehow, i think we all know that.

Where we can win here is smashing the 11-1 voting scandal. We could if all the clubs apart from the smellies wanted, make this a much fairer league.

Equal shares of everything the league earns, we could really make this league work better. I wonder if those clubs bar the smellies have the balls?

Dibben
09-02-2012, 09:27 PM
Surely of they go into liquidation, the assets, ie Ibrox, would get sold to pay off the debt? Suppose Rangers2012 fc could share Firhill!

Ozyhibby
09-02-2012, 09:27 PM
I'm not saying they will die. Their massive fan base will ensure they will be reborn.
Which authorities do you think will be able to stop their liquidation? The SFA?
Given that there is no public money available I doubt the govt could get involved.
It's the fact that they will have to be reformed under a new company that presents the opportunity.

--------
09-02-2012, 09:28 PM
Sometime in the near future it is likely that Rangers FC will cease to be and a new Rangers will bid to re-enter the SPL. This will open up opportunities for the other ten clubs in the SPL to restructure the league in ways that would be good for all of Scottish football. My wish list would include:-

1. A salary cap. Set at about £5m per season this would ensure a much fairer league with all 12 teams capable of winning. At this level nobody outside the old firm and Hearts(I suspect they would see £5m as to high as of next season) would see a drop in the standard of players they could sign. It's a win win for all other teams.
2. TV revenue to be split amongst all clubs equally.
3. The new Rangers must set aside £5m per season for ten years towards youth development at the SFA. This is a must otherwise they will be entering the league debt free after cheating the tax payer and all the other SPL clubs over the last ten years.
This is a one time opportunity that the clubs have to change the game for the better and we should be lobbying Hibs now in order to make sure they act in the fans best interests.


Lotta wishful thinking there, buddy. Some folks have been predicting the demise of HoMFC for about seven years now - they're still here. Why do you think Rangers are going to fold any more quickly? What makes you think the Scottish football authorities won't bend over backwards to see them OK?

Tell you now - it isn't going to happen.

greenlex
09-02-2012, 09:32 PM
Lotta wishful thinking there, buddy. Some folks have been predicting the demise of HoMFC for about seven years now - they're still here. Why do you think Rangers are going to fold any more quickly? What makes you think the Scottish football authorities won't bend over backwards to see them OK?

Tell you now - it isn't going to happen.
A much bigger tax bill could see to that Doddie.
I know a company that went bust just before Christmas over a bill payable to the Pensions Protection fund. They offered to square it up over a number of years (5 springs to mind). The answer was no payable now.. The company was well over 100 years old and had been taken over by new owners 6 or 7 years previous who thought (and had been legally advised wrongly)the liability was nothing to do with them. They are no more.

Ozyhibby
09-02-2012, 09:33 PM
Bigger companies than Rangers go out of business everyday. To prevent them going out of business is going to require someone taking on £90m of debt. I don't think there is anyone out there willing and able to do that.

TheEastTerrace
09-02-2012, 09:45 PM
A thought passed my mind whilst reading The Times' story about HR and MM's acquittal yesterday. HMRC's reputation continues to go from bad to worse and this high profile case hasn't done them any favours - what better way to show who's boss by taking down the establishment club in Scotland for £49m in back-dated tax and penalties?

Gmack7
09-02-2012, 09:49 PM
its prob different circumstances but dundee have been in admin twice and only got an increased points deduction from 10/15 to 25 the 2nd time,there was no automatic relegation with them or motherwell,will roughly the same penalties not be handed down to rangers or hearts for that matter?
and can someone explain why livi were treated differently to dundee:confused:

heartbreaker
09-02-2012, 09:51 PM
Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

Correct. I loathe Rangers but the objective reality is that they are by a distance the best supported club in Scotland..it wouldn't suprpise me if over 30% of Scots were Rangers fans. They are a hugely important social and cultural part of the national life.....loathsome and shameful but a central reality in Scottish life and they are going nowhere. They will struggle but will continue.

JeMeSouviens
09-02-2012, 09:56 PM
Lotta wishful thinking there, buddy. Some folks have been predicting the demise of HoMFC for about seven years now - they're still here. Why do you think Rangers are going to fold any more quickly? What makes you think the Scottish football authorities won't bend over backwards to see them OK?

Tell you now - it isn't going to happen.

Hearts are entirely dependent on Vlad. He pulls the plug, they're ******, he doesn't, they're not. The Huns are in an entirely different position. They have already been up for sale once and with the tax bill looming the only guy they could find willing to take them on was a "turnaround specialist" who did so by mortgaging their future ST money. Whyte knows all about administration, liquidation, asset stripping, prepacks, the whole lot. He's been there, seen it, done it etc.

If the tax bill is anywhere near the higher end, the Huns as presently constituted are ******. They'll come back, of course, like Leeds, but us and the rest of the SPL can make the road long and hard for them. :wink:

JeMeSouviens
09-02-2012, 09:59 PM
its prob different circumstances but dundee have been in admin twice and only got an increased points deduction from 10/15 to 25 the 2nd time,there was no automatic relegation with them or motherwell,will roughly the same penalties not be handed down to rangers or hearts for that matter?
and can someone explain why livi were treated differently to dundee:confused:

Dundee got out of admin by agreeing a 6p in the £ deal with their creditors. To do this, 75% of your creditors by debt value have to agree. In the Hun case, they will not be able to get anywhere near 75% without HMRC. HMRC voted against deals at Dundee and Portsmouth, they're after the full £. :aok:

Livi were treated differently because having dropped into the SFL, they couldn't guarantee to fulfil a season of fixtures in Div 1.

Kaiser1962
09-02-2012, 10:11 PM
If the case goes against them Rangers will enter administration. Their assetts are out of the creditor's reach and they will broker a deal which will allow them to exit administration, relatively unscathed.

This is, IMO, an abuse of the administration laws in that part of their plan is to use the legislation as a means of avoiding their responsibilities.


The Yams owners and by far the biggest creditor are one and the same, to all intents and purposes, which makes their situation somewhat different from that of Rangers.

Sir David Gray
09-02-2012, 10:11 PM
its prob different circumstances but dundee have been in admin twice and only got an increased points deduction from 10/15 to 25 the 2nd time,there was no automatic relegation with them or motherwell,will roughly the same penalties not be handed down to rangers or hearts for that matter?
and can someone explain why livi were treated differently to dundee:confused:

There were doubts that Livingston were going to be able to fulfil their league fixtures that season, which is why that course of action was taken against them.

GreenCastle
09-02-2012, 10:14 PM
Few interesting points -

Rangers will continue to get weaker - Hearts are getting weaker slowly also - this would be a great time for a club like Hibs who seem to be very well run to capitalise and make a challenge - if the board / STF could see this then the rewards would be massive - Hearts have proved before it can be done - just don't let a mad man do it (sacking Burley when undefeated etc). Hibs have the infrastructure to compete - obviously we must stay up this season.

Rangers do have serious money problems - is there not a rule stopping you take part in Europe if your finances are really struggling ? I am sure it was introduced recently ?

The SPL is struggling - I have talked about it many times on here - something needs to be done. The 11-1 needs to be changed - that is ridiculous.

Teams need to grow some and maybe take a small hit short term but for the league to prosper long term. The distribution of money needs to be more fair - the issue is though did the SPL not sign a new T.V deal recently for the next few years?

I think the salary cap idea is good and something I would be in favour of - the issue as mentioned is how do clubs then compete in Europe where the top leagues don't have one ? This has caused Rangers problems as they tried to keep up with many English teams and are struggling now but the bottom line is the league needs become more competitive to bring fans back into the grounds and get more sponsors involved.

Hibernia Na Eir
09-02-2012, 10:20 PM
does anyone HONESTLY think that the hierarchies will demote RFC?!!!!!!

I seriously doubt it.

They'll get all the help and attention they'd ever need.

Kaiser1962
09-02-2012, 10:22 PM
Few interesting points -

Rangers will continue to get weaker - Hearts are getting weaker slowly also - this would be a great time for a club like Hibs who seem to be very well run to capitalise and make a challenge - if the board / STF could see this then the rewards would be massive - Hearts have proved before it can be done - just don't let a mad man do it (sacking Burley when undefeated etc). Hibs have the infrastructure to compete - obviously we must stay up this season.




How would the rewards be massive? What do you believe they would be?

GreenCastle
09-02-2012, 10:26 PM
How would the rewards be massive? What do you believe they would be?

First the 10,000 empty seats at ER would have people in them - add in extra money through food / merchandise / corporate / sponsorship etc.

A decent team/winning would get people down to ER.

Whether you got into the Europa League or Champions League the money generated again would be much more than the club are bringing it right now.

Europa League money isn't huge but it's still a decent amount - especially if in group stages.

Champions League is where the real money obviously is - if teams from Cyprus can make it in and do well there is hope for Hibs.

Kaiser1962
09-02-2012, 10:34 PM
First the 10,000 empty seats at ER would have people in them - add in extra money through food / merchandise / corporate / sponsorship etc.

A decent team/winning would get people down to ER.

Whether you got into the Europa League or Champions League the money generated again would be much more than the club are bringing it right now.

Europa League money isn't huge but it's still a decent amount - especially if in group stages.

Champions League is where the real money obviously is - if teams from Cyprus can make it in and do well there is hope for Hibs.


The reality is Hibs will not get crowds anywhere near what you are predicting. Nice thought though.

greenlex
09-02-2012, 10:40 PM
The reality is Hibs will not get crowds anywhere near what you are predicting. Nice thought though.

Maybe not Kaiser but that should be the goal otherwise the investment in the stadium is a complete waste of resource.
With Rangers out the picture for a few seasons and Hearts much weakened or out the picture too we should be trying to capitalise on that. Celtic might just get complacent/bored and lose their edge.

Maybe just maybe. :flag:

Kaiser1962
09-02-2012, 10:44 PM
Maybe not Kaiser but that should be the goal otherwise the investment in the stadium is a complete waste of resource.
With Rangers out the picture for a few seasons and Hearts much weakened or out the picture too we should be trying to capitalise on that. Celtic might just get complacent/bored and lose their edge.

Maybe just maybe. :flag:


No arguments there.

I do not think Rangers are going anywhere, however.

GreenCastle
09-02-2012, 10:50 PM
The reality is Hibs will not get crowds anywhere near what you are predicting. Nice thought though.

How do you know ?

Won't happen over night but the fan base is there - the product on the pitch isn't / hasn't been there for a while.

Like Greenlex said what is the point of having a 21,000 seater stadium ? So each fan can get 2 seats each ?

Rangers aren't going to hit the wall like all of us we like but they are becoming weaker and the quality of player at Ibrox poorer - everyone can see that.

When Hearts went for 2nd - it was when the Old Firm were both strong and still paying high wages.

This would be a prime time to go for it and try get 2nd - that's next season if still in the SPL.

heartbreaker
10-02-2012, 12:38 AM
How do you know ?

Won't happen over night but the fan base is there - the product on the pitch isn't / hasn't been there for a while.

Like Greenlex said what is the point of having a 21,000 seater stadium ? So each fan can get 2 seats each ?

Rangers aren't going to hit the wall like all of us we like but they are becoming weaker and the quality of player at Ibrox poorer - everyone can see that.

When Hearts went for 2nd - it was when the Old Firm were both strong and still paying high wages.

This would be a prime time to go for it and try get 2nd - that's next season if still in the SPL.

I'm all for ambition but do not be too sure that "the fanbase is there" to actually fill those 10,000 seats with any regularity.

This club has not really drawn fans in "big club" numbers since the Famous Five era. 1957/58 when we still had the likes of Eddie Turnbull and Willie Ormond on the park and reached the Cup Final was the last time we averaged over 20,000 in the league at ER. That is 55 years ago. Only once, in '72-'73, did the Tornadoes attract a home average of more than 15,000. The reality is we had a lot of empty seats in our end in the Hampden semi V Hearts some years ago.

Saying the fanbase is there is one thing. Enthusing 20,000 Hibbies to go to games is another thing entirely. I hope you are right but the evidence says we really struggle to improve attendance.

jgl07
10-02-2012, 01:28 AM
Correct. I loathe Rangers but the objective reality is that they are by a distance the best supported club in Scotland..it wouldn't suprpise me if over 30% of Scots were Rangers fans. They are a hugely important social and cultural part of the national life.....loathsome and shameful but a central reality in Scottish life and they are going nowhere. They will struggle but will continue.

Not true.

Celtic have drawn bigger crowds than Rangers since the redevelopment of Parkhead.

heartbreaker
10-02-2012, 01:46 AM
Not true.

Celtic have drawn bigger crowds than Rangers since the redevelopment of Parkhead.

Only because Parkhead seats more people mate. Historically Rangers have outdrawn Celtic for more often than not. In 1967/68 the European Cup holding Celtic were actually outdrawn by Rangers believe it or not. In the 52 seasons between the end of WW2 and the Parkhead redevelopnment in 1998 Rangers outdrew Celtic 39 times to 13 and pre war more or less always did.

As I say I despise Rangers but they definitely have more armchair/barstool fans than Celtic in Scotland. You don't see it so much here where there are two big clubs cutting down the OF appeal but go out to the small towns without SPL clubs.......full of barstool huns.

EasterRoad4Ever
10-02-2012, 07:01 AM
Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

Correct. Too many rich crooks and dodgy politicians associated with the Huns to let them die off. Once they've shafted HMRC (ie everyone else) and had their £49mil written off, they will start again with the same 45k crowds, borrowed funds, donations and a rented Hunbrox. Normal service and the OF love-in will be resumed.

Hibrandenburg
10-02-2012, 07:10 AM
If Hearts and the Huns drop down a league or two it would have one major benefit IMO. The top flight in Scotland would not have any teams that share a home town.

This is the case here in the Bundesliga and has a positive on attendances.

Maybe Wallace Mercer was right? Maybe there is only room for one top flight club in Edinburgh? (Devilish winking smiley).

Kaiser1962
10-02-2012, 07:42 AM
I'm all for ambition but do not be too sure that "the fanbase is there" to actually fill those 10,000 seats with any regularity.

This club has not really drawn fans in "big club" numbers since the Famous Five era. 1957/58 when we still had the likes of Eddie Turnbull and Willie Ormond on the park and reached the Cup Final was the last time we averaged over 20,000 in the league at ER. That is 55 years ago. Only once, in '72-'73, did the Tornadoes attract a home average of more than 15,000. The reality is we had a lot of empty seats in our end in the Hampden semi V Hearts some years ago.

Saying the fanbase is there is one thing. Enthusing 20,000 Hibbies to go to games is another thing entirely. I hope you are right but the evidence says we really struggle to improve attendance.


Correct. :agree:

That said I would always expect Hibs, or any club, to be aiming to finish as high up the league as possible but there is a trade off to be had in how much risk you take to achieve that. Spending money we dont have to try to achieve this would be a gamble and all the evidence is that a policy of overspending to attempt to achieve success on the field is flawed and ultimately unsuccessful.

Ozyhibby
10-02-2012, 07:49 AM
What a cynical lot we are. Twenty years ago what you are all saying about shady deals being done to save them but we live in a much more transparent society these days. They will have to go through a liquidation if they lose their tax case and they will be reformed in a new company. This is where the opportunity lies. It's up to the non old firm clubs to take it. To gain immediate re entry to the SPL the new company would require the votes of 11 of the other SPL clubs.
I can't see them getting it without major concessions to the other clubs.
The relegated team would object immediatly, Romanov ( if still around) can be relied upon to vote against, Geoff brown at st. Johnstone is known to consider debt as cheating and I'm sure there will be other clubs with their own agenda.

Cropley10
10-02-2012, 07:52 AM
Surely of they go into liquidation, the assets, ie Ibrox, would get sold to pay off the debt? Suppose Rangers2012 fc could share Firhill!

Precisely. They can't just change the name above the door.

Cropley10
10-02-2012, 07:54 AM
What a cynical lot we are. Twenty years ago what you are all saying about shady deals being done to save them but we live in a much more transparent society these days. They will have to go through a liquidation if they lose their tax case and they will be reformed in a new company. This is where the opportunity lies. It's up to the non old firm clubs to take it. To gain immediate re entry to the SPL the new company would require the votes of 11 of the other SPL clubs.
I can't see them getting it without major concessions to the other clubs.
The relegated team would object immediatly, Romanov ( if still around) can be relied upon to vote against, Geoff brown at st. Johnstone is known to consider debt as cheating and I'm sure there will be other clubs with their own agenda.

Any newco that is formed has as much 'right' to join the League as any one else.

Why on earth would this new team be allowed re-entry to the SPL. Please explain.

Viva_Palmeiras
10-02-2012, 08:14 AM
Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

I think you are probably right and I'm not too sure on the parallels but if I were Gretna, Livi, Dundee then I might just be having a chat with my lawyers. Or just some young Turk of a lawyer who wants to make a name for themselves IF the rules state clearly one thing and the route taken is another.

CRAZYHIBBY
10-02-2012, 09:15 AM
Cant believe they are paying 7.5k a week for a huddie like cousin

alfie
10-02-2012, 09:24 AM
I'm confused by the administration or liquidation choice here. I understand when a company goes into administration the idea is to get a deal with the creditors (i.e. pay them only 10p in the £ or something) and eventually get the company back on it's feet. However if RFC lose the fight with HMRC then will that be an option to them? Would HMRC be able to force them into liquidation as a way of stripping the assets and getting the maximum return on what they are owed? I guess at the end of the day HMRC don't care if they fold, just as long as they get the maximum amount of tax due to them.

Could RFC use the administration route to limp through to another season staying in the SPL without getting kicked out and starting again like Airdrie United? :confused:

Peevemor
10-02-2012, 09:34 AM
I'm confused by the administration or liquidation choice here. I understand when a company goes into administration the idea is to get a deal with the creditors (i.e. pay them only 10p in the £ or something) and eventually get the company back on it's feet. However if RFC lose the fight with HMRC then will that be an option to them? Would HMRC be able to force them into liquidation as a way of stripping the assets and getting the maximum return on what they are owed? I guess at the end of the day HMRC don't care if they fold, just as long as they get the maximum amount of tax due to them.

Could RFC use the administration route to limp through to another season staying in the SPL without getting kicked out and starting again like Airdrie United? :confused:

The thing to remember is that Rangers are capable of operating as a going concern. Over the last 10 years, their turnover has ranged between roughly £40m - £65m with wages over the same period varying between £24m - £37m. Although it's a very simplistic way to look at things, if they went into administration and effectively started from scratch they could easily turn in an annual profit of a few million quid enabling them to continue making payments to their creditors.

This, of course, would require them to draw their horns in a bit in terms of their wages/european ambitions.

HFC 0-7
10-02-2012, 09:38 AM
If the case goes against them Rangers will enter administration. Their assetts are out of the creditor's reach and they will broker a deal which will allow them to exit administration, relatively unscathed.

This is, IMO, an abuse of the administration laws in that part of their plan is to use the legislation as a means of avoiding their responsibilities.


The Yams owners and by far the biggest creditor are one and the same, to all intents and purposes, which makes their situation somewhat different from that of Rangers.

Re the part in bold, this may not be the case with all the quizzing going on over Whyte. He was originally going to get his money first should they go into administration but he may have already got his money as he cant seem to account for the money from selling the future ST's. He has already been pulled up by keeping assetts out of reach of the creditors in previous companies so I would imagine HMRC will be well clued up about this. Hopefully Johnstone will manage to make Whyte have to come clean about where all the money has been going which will make things easier for HMRC.

alfie
10-02-2012, 09:54 AM
The thing to remember is that Rangers are capable of operating as a going concern. Over the last 10 years, their turnover has ranged between roughly £40m - £65m with wages over the same period varying between £24m - £37m. Although it's a very simplistic way to look at things, if they went into administration and effectively started from scratch they could easily turn in an annual profit of a few million quid enabling them to continue making payments to their creditors.

This, of course, would require them to draw their horns in a bit in terms of their wages/european ambitions.

I'm assuming then that HMRC cant force RFC into liquidation. In which case, as you say they could limp through administration and keep their place in the SPL.

In which case all the fanciful ideas about removing the 11-1 voting farce in SPL admin are moot, life carries on as normal. Although with their restricted budget, RFC cant guarantee to be in the top two to get the lions share of the TV money for a start.
Which means less budget for players; which means worse results; which means lower attendances; which means less money; which means HMRC get on their backs again about non-payment of debt; which means they are back in court with a winding up order? :greengrin

Or am I getting carried away again? :clapper:

HFC 0-7
10-02-2012, 09:56 AM
The thing to remember is that Rangers are capable of operating as a going concern. Over the last 10 years, their turnover has ranged between roughly £40m - £65m with wages over the same period varying between £24m - £37m. Although it's a very simplistic way to look at things, if they went into administration and effectively started from scratch they could easily turn in an annual profit of a few million quid enabling them to continue making payments to their creditors.

This, of course, would require them to draw their horns in a bit in terms of their wages/european ambitions.

Their future income will probably be down quite a bit as they have been selling of a good chunk of their future ST's. At present Rangers operating Costs are 45 million and revenues are 35 million. The difference will get worse when their outgoings increase to pay off the ticket company buying the tickets. They will have to repay the ticket company at probably about 9 - 10 million per year so thats a massive increase to outgoings and decrease to incomings. The way I see it is the creditors wont be accepting massive reductions in what they are owed. If they were to go into administration they would lose some of their fans as well which would be yet another decrease in revenues. IMO, Whyte is gearing up to put them into liquidation should HMRC win, there has been incoming money which cant be accounted for (24.4 million from the ticket company and 3 million from transfers) He isnt paying anything at the moment, he owes Hearts, never paid the small tax bill which is not about 4 million, he didnt pay for Cellik either. He isnt calling for an AGM because he would have to show where the money is gone.

London Hibee
10-02-2012, 09:58 AM
.........The top flight in Scotland would not have any teams that share a home town..........This is the case here in the Bundesliga and has a positive on attendances.

As you know there are a number of other factors which contribute to the healthy attendances in the Bundesliga and the SPL can a learn a lot from it........ but this isn't one of them.

How far is it from the Westfalen Stadion to the Veltins Arena ? and how much countryside would you travel through on the way ?

Dashing Bob S
10-02-2012, 12:25 PM
Sadly the real benefactor of the Huns demise is likely to be Neil Lennon. This is the shabby no-mark who was heading for the dole queue last year but who will now Hoover up trophies to the extent of challenging (at least on paper and in the eyes of Record journalists in nauseating articles yet to be written) the legacy of the late, great Jock Stein.

The other teams should be ruthlessly targeting the OF veto - its the only Scottish football will progress.

Big Frank
10-02-2012, 12:38 PM
Sadly the real benefactor of the Huns demise is likely to be Neil Lennon. This is the shabby no-mark who was heading for the dole queue last year but who will now Hoover up trophies to the extent of challenging (at least on paper and in the eyes of Record journalists in nauseating articles yet to be written) the legacy of the late, great Jock Stein.

The other teams should be ruthlessly targeting the OF veto - its the only Scottish football will progress.

:agree:

but, has the SPL not just signed that TV deal which "insists" neither of the infirm drops out of the top 6 :confused::confused:

or have I made this up :confused:

Cropley10
10-02-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm assuming then that HMRC cant force RFC into liquidation. In which case, as you say they could limp through administration and keep their place in the SPL.

In which case all the fanciful ideas about removing the 11-1 voting farce in SPL admin are moot, life carries on as normal. Although with their restricted budget, RFC cant guarantee to be in the top two to get the lions share of the TV money for a start.
Which means less budget for players; which means worse results; which means lower attendances; which means less money; which means HMRC get on their backs again about non-payment of debt; which means they are back in court with a winding up order? :greengrin

Or am I getting carried away again? :clapper:

HMRC can ask RFC for £49m. If RFC can't pay that then HMRC can liquidate them.

That's my understanding.

Whyte is an asset-stripper, and I'd be very surprised if he hung around to re-structure RFC.

Cropley10
10-02-2012, 01:17 PM
The thing to remember is that Rangers are capable of operating as a going concern. Over the last 10 years, their turnover has ranged between roughly £40m - £65m with wages over the same period varying between £24m - £37m. Although it's a very simplistic way to look at things, if they went into administration and effectively started from scratch they could easily turn in an annual profit of a few million quid enabling them to continue making payments to their creditors.

This, of course, would require them to draw their horns in a bit in terms of their wages/european ambitions.

Are they able to operate as a going concern if they lose the Big Tax Case?

Cropley10
10-02-2012, 01:18 PM
I'm confused by the administration or liquidation choice here. I understand when a company goes into administration the idea is to get a deal with the creditors (i.e. pay them only 10p in the £ or something) and eventually get the company back on it's feet. However if RFC lose the fight with HMRC then will that be an option to them? Would HMRC be able to force them into liquidation as a way of stripping the assets and getting the maximum return on what they are owed? I guess at the end of the day HMRC don't care if they fold, just as long as they get the maximum amount of tax due to them.

Could RFC use the administration route to limp through to another season staying in the SPL without getting kicked out and starting again like Airdrie United? :confused:

Liquidation is what happened to Gretna. It would mean RFC being broken up and it's assets sold to pay creditors.

I don't understand how RFC survive IF they lose the Big Tax Case.

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2012, 01:25 PM
Are they able to operate as a going concern if they lose the Big Tax Case?

They will not be. The tests of insolvency are 1. if assets are exceeded by liabilities OR 2. if liabilities cannot be met as they fall due.

At the moment, they satisfy 1., and seem to be able to satisfy 2. Once the tax case is settled, and a liability established, it could be a different story.

stokesmessiah
10-02-2012, 01:30 PM
Maybe someone of a more savvy financial background can answer this one for me?

If as has been reported RFC has mortgaged the next 4 seasons of ST money with Ticketus what happens to that debt if they were to go belly up? Do they just get added to the list of creditors as i would imagine that is quite a sizeable sum?

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2012, 01:35 PM
Maybe someone of a more savvy financial background can answer this one for me?

If as has been reported RFC has mortgaged the next 4 seasons of ST money with Ticketus what happens to that debt if they were to go belly up? Do they just get added to the list of creditors as i would imagine that is quite a sizeable sum?

Yes.

I am not aware of the small print of that deal, and whether there is any security held by Ticketus. But, yeah, if it all goes boom they are probably rubber ducked.

DarlingtonHibee
10-02-2012, 01:44 PM
If the case goes against them Rangers will enter administration. Their assetts are out of the creditor's reach and they will broker a deal which will allow them to exit administration, relatively unscathed.
This is, IMO, an abuse of the administration laws in that part of their plan is to use the legislation as a means of avoiding their responsibilities.


The Yams owners and by far the biggest creditor are one and the same, to all intents and purposes, which makes their situation somewhat different from that of Rangers.

This the bit I don't get.

If you or I owed the tax man, we would be forced to sell our assets - home,shares, cash etc... to repay the debt.

How have they managed to protect Ibrox, Murray Park etc ?

Hibee87
10-02-2012, 01:50 PM
This the bit I don't get.

If you or I owed the tax man, we would be forced to sell our assets - home,shares, cash etc... to repay the debt.

How have they managed to protect Ibrox, Murray Park etc ?

The way I see it is Ibrox and murray park are rangers assests, craig white transers the owner ship to another company this making it not the proper of ranger fc plc whom the HMRC are taking to court. If HMRC take rangers fc plc to court then the stadium and murray park are out of the liquidators hands.

similar to romanov/ukio bankas owning the deeds to tyncastle, basically if hearts went bust ukio would own the stadium to with as they please.

ovcourse i could be talking a load o pish, this is just my thinking behind it.

alfie
10-02-2012, 01:50 PM
They will not be. The tests of insolvency are 1. if assets are exceeded by liabilities OR 2. if liabilities cannot be met as they fall due.

At the moment, they satisfy 1., and seem to be able to satisfy 2. Once the tax case is settled, and a liability established, it could be a different story.

So in theory if they lost the case they might be able to scrape enough cash together to pay HMRC and avoid liquidation, but then have zero cash left to pay anybody else (e.g. Ticketus. players, et al) and so have to go into administration, and then restructure while keeping Castle Greyskull and SPL status?

However, I'm guessing that there isnt a hope in hell of them getting that kind of money if required (hence the Ticketus deal in the first place) and so its liquidation time! :pray:

My only other thought is that presumably Castle Greyskull is valued at quite a high figure as one of their assets, but in the event of liquidation how could its value be realised? It's not like there is a queue of folks wanting to buy a football stadium in a dodgy area of weegie land. Could Glasgow City Council step in and buy it to then lease back to RFC2012 Ltd? :wink: Not that GCC would get involved in such a dodgy scheme, of course! :cb

Ozyhibby
10-02-2012, 01:52 PM
This the bit I don't get.

If you or I owed the tax man, we would be forced to sell our assets - home,shares, cash etc... to repay the debt.

How have they managed to protect Ibrox, Murray Park etc ?

They haven't. HMRC will pursue every asset they can. The are legally bound to do so and always resist having to take less than they are due.

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2012, 01:54 PM
The way I see it is Ibrox and murray park are rangers assests, craig white transers the owner ship to another company this making it not the proper of ranger fc plc whom the HMRC are taking to court. If HMRC take rangers fc plc to court then the stadium and murray park are out of the liquidators hands.

similar to romanov/ukio bankas owning the deeds to tyncastle, basically if hearts went bust ukio would own the stadium to with as they please.

ovcourse i could be talking a load o pish, this is just my thinking behind it.

That would be, IMO, a dangerous approach to take.

If they do the transfer after the tribunal, it's a worthless move. A liquidator would deem it a Gratuitous Alienation, and demand the proceeds back from the new company.

If they were to do it before the tribunal, that may still be the scenario. Although insolvency hasn't yet been established, a liquidator might still argue that, actually, the HMRC debt has existed for a number of years; it just hasn't ben quantified yet.

DarlingtonHibee
10-02-2012, 01:55 PM
The way I see it is Ibrox and murray park are rangers assests, craig white transers the owner ship to another company this making it not the proper of ranger fc plc whom the HMRC are taking to court. If HMRC take rangers fc plc to court then the stadium and murray park are out of the liquidators hands.

similar to romanov/ukio bankas owning the deeds to tyncastle, basically if hearts went bust ukio would own the stadium to with as they please.

ovcourse i could be talking a load o pish, this is just my thinking behind it.

Cheers for that :wink:

If that is the case, then the whole system is a joke, I hope they get slaughtered by HMRC where they can.

What is the point in clubs like Hibs trying to balance the books year on year ?

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2012, 01:55 PM
So in theory if they lost the case they might be able to scrape enough cash together to pay HMRC and avoid liquidation, but then have zero cash left to pay anybody else (e.g. Ticketus. players, et al) and so have to go into administration, and then restructure while keeping Castle Greyskull and SPL status?

However, I'm guessing that there isnt a hope in hell of them getting that kind of money if required (hence the Ticketus deal in the first place) and so its liquidation time! :pray:

My only other thought is that presumably Castle Greyskull is valued at quite a high figure as one of their assets, but in the event of liquidation how could its value be realised? It's not like there is a queue of folks wanting to buy a football stadium in a dodgy area of weegie land. Could Glasgow City Council step in and buy it to then lease back to RFC2012 Ltd? :wink: Not that GCC would get involved in such a dodgy scheme, of course! :cb

I can't see any way they could pay HMRC if it's as high as the £49m being quoted.

Caversham Green
10-02-2012, 02:00 PM
Re administration/liquidation, the problem Rangers have is that they will need the consent of 75% in value of their creditors to exit administration. If HMRC win their case the amount due is almost certain to exceed 25% of the total relevant debt, so they can block the exit. Furthermore, because RFC are potentially profitable and the value of their assets appears to exceed their liablities HMRC have nothing to gain from agreeing to a reduced settlement - they can sit tight and get the full amount in due course, or let liquidation happen and get paid out of the proceeds of the asset sales.

What happened with Gretna was that having been appointed administrator the IP could see no prospect of returning the club to solvency and so liquidated them. That seems unlikely to happen with RFC because of the above but if they take the administration route the process might be rather different from what we've seen with other football clubs. I reckon Whyte knows what he's doing though and it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Much depends on the real sale value of Ibrox and other assets.

Cropley10
10-02-2012, 02:05 PM
Re administration/liquidation, the problem Rangers have is that they will need the consent of 75% in value of their creditors to exit administration. If HMRC win their case the amount due is almost certain to exceed 25% of the total relevant debt, so they can block the exit. Furthermore, because RFC are potentially profitable and the value of their assets appears to exceed their liablities HMRC have nothing to gain from agreeing to a reduced settlement - they can sit tight and get the full amount in due course, or let liquidation happen and get paid out of the proceeds of the asset sales.

What happened with Gretna was that having been appointed administrator the IP could see no prospect of returning the club to solvency and so liquidated them. That seems unlikely to happen with RFC because of the above but if they take the administration route the process might be rather different from what we've seen with other football clubs. I reckon Whyte knows what he's doing though and it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Much depends on the real sale value of Ibrox and other assets.

What is Craig Whyte doing - I've heard it mentioned he's trying to pull off a massive "Long Firm" (getting a line of credit/taking cash out of the Huns before leaving his creditors high and dry).

Caversham Green
10-02-2012, 02:05 PM
Maybe someone of a more savvy financial background can answer this one for me?

If as has been reported RFC has mortgaged the next 4 seasons of ST money with Ticketus what happens to that debt if they were to go belly up? Do they just get added to the list of creditors as i would imagine that is quite a sizeable sum?


Yes.

I am not aware of the small print of that deal, and whether there is any security held by Ticketus. But, yeah, if it all goes boom they are probably rubber ducked.

I think Whyte said in one of his interviews that one of his other companies had underwritten the deal, so Ticketus would pursue them if the Huns collapse.

DarlingtonHibee
10-02-2012, 02:06 PM
Re administration/liquidation, the problem Rangers have is that they will need the consent of 75% in value of their creditors to exit administration. If HMRC win their case the amount due is almost certain to exceed 25% of the total relevant debt, so they can block the exit. Furthermore, because RFC are potentially profitable and the value of their assets appears to exceed their liablities HMRC have nothing to gain from agreeing to a reduced settlement - they can sit tight and get the full amount in due course, or let liquidation happen and get paid out of the proceeds of the asset sales.

What happened with Gretna was that having been appointed administrator the IP could see no prospect of returning the club to solvency and so liquidated them. That seems unlikely to happen with RFC because of the above but if they take the administration route the process might be rather different from what we've seen with other football clubs. I reckon Whyte knows what he's doing though and it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Much depends on the real sale value of Ibrox and other assets.

CG - great post as always.

Do you think they will have "moved" the fixed assets - ie Ibrox, Murray Park etc to another company - surely HMRC would be wise to that !

Could they protect those assetts, and escape with _10 points, in a league that they are not going to win this season anyway.

Baker9
10-02-2012, 02:11 PM
If Hearts and the Huns drop down a league or two it would have one major benefit IMO. The top flight in Scotland would not have any teams that share a home town.

This is the case here in the Bundesliga and has a positive on attendances.

Maybe Wallace Mercer was right? Maybe there is only room for one top flight club in Edinburgh? (Devilish winking smiley).

There is only room for one top flight club and that should be Edinburgh Hibs. Also a chance of capturing some Hearts support to help fill the stadium.

Caversham Green
10-02-2012, 02:12 PM
What is Craig Whyte doing - I've heard it mentioned he's trying to pull off a massive "Long Firm" (getting a line of credit/taking cash out of the Huns before leaving his creditors high and dry).

Yes, I think I've seen that mentioned as well - it strikes me as risky for the reasons CWG has touched on, that a liquidator would see it as a preferential appropriation of assets. It's possible that he's genuinely trying to extract the Huns from the almighty mess that Murray got them into in the least painful way possible (for him). I have my doubts about that, but maybe that's because his reputation precedes him.

CropleyWasGod
10-02-2012, 02:18 PM
There is only room for one top flight club and that should be Edinburgh Hibs. Also a chance of capturing some Hearts support to help fill the stadium.

... they would need to be captured. No way they would come willingly.:greengrin

Caversham Green
10-02-2012, 02:35 PM
CG - great post as always.

Do you think they will have "moved" the fixed assets - ie Ibrox, Murray Park etc to another company - surely HMRC would be wise to that !

Could they protect those assetts, and escape with _10 points, in a league that they are not going to win this season anyway.

I think we would have got wind of them moving the assets, and as CWG says an administator/liquidator would seek to reverse the transaction. I believe Whyte has a fixed charge (i.e. mortgage) on Ibrox so there's a degree of protection there in that they can't sell without his consent, but if the debt due to him is only £18m I reckon an IP could sell and settle.

In the past clubs that have gone into administration have been able to hold onto their grounds, but I don't think they owed HMRC as much as Rangers seem to. A 'pre-pack' administraion might be the way to go using a donor club as the newco (the way Airdrie did with Clydebank) but that strikes me as being fraught with difficulties as well.

silverhibee
10-02-2012, 03:06 PM
The reality is Hibs will not get crowds anywhere near what you are predicting. Nice thought though.


So why the big stadium then, is it not a waste of money building a new 20,000 seater stadium if they new it would never sell out.

A nice thought would be the club building a smaller East stand and and putting some money aside for the player budget at the time instead of building a stand that will never sell out.

Part/Time Supporter
10-02-2012, 03:15 PM
So why the big stadium then, is it not a waste of money building a new 20,000 seater stadium if they new it would never sell out.

A nice thought would be the club building a smaller East stand and and putting some money aside for the player budget at the time instead of building a stand that will never sell out.

Erm, they built the smaller stand of the two that were proposed, after consulting with fans.

alfie
10-02-2012, 03:19 PM
CG & CWG - thanks again for simplifying tax and law for the layman. :not worth
I have an accountant to work out my company and personal tax, but TBH most of it goes over my head. I end up nodding and agreeing with whatever he comes up with. :embarrass

If they lose the tax case then it would indeed be interesting times, and not one that RFC could easily escape from unscathed even with the undoubted assistance of the blazers in the SFA and SPL.

jacomo
10-02-2012, 03:20 PM
Cant believe they are paying 7.5k a week for a huddie like cousin

Garry O'Connor can't be pleased!

jgl07
10-02-2012, 03:56 PM
The thing to remember is that Rangers are capable of operating as a going concern. Over the last 10 years, their turnover has ranged between roughly £40m - £65m with wages over the same period varying between £24m - £37m. Although it's a very simplistic way to look at things, if they went into administration and effectively started from scratch they could easily turn in an annual profit of a few million quid enabling them to continue making payments to their creditors.

This, of course, would require them to draw their horns in a bit in terms of their wages/european ambitions.

This begs the question. Would 45,000 turn up every week to see a team that was not winning?

The poor crowd for the Cup match against Dundee United reminded me of the time when the Tangerines won the SFL title and Rangers were getting crowds below 10,000.

Murray has been trying to sell Rangers for years. If there is a consortium waiting to take over why did they not act earlier?

Rangers in the past have had the benefit of forays into the Champions League group stages. That does not look likely for the future given the harder qualification route for Scottish teams given the fall in the coefficient.

The most likely scenario is that if Rangers go bust a new club: Glasgow Rangers or Rangers (2012) would be formed. They would have to seek a place in the SFL Division 3 or buy another SFL club franchaise (Livingston, Cowdenbeath?).

Once Rangers are gone the SPL clubs could outvote Celtic 11-1 to change the terms of cash distribution.

WindyMiller
10-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Their future income will probably be down quite a bit as they have been selling of a good chunk of their future ST's. At present Rangers operating Costs are 45 million and revenues are 35 million. The difference will get worse when their outgoings increase to pay off the ticket company buying the tickets. They will have to repay the ticket company at probably about 9 - 10 million per year so thats a massive increase to outgoings and decrease to incomings. The way I see it is the creditors wont be accepting massive reductions in what they are owed. If they were to go into administration they would lose some of their fans as well which would be yet another decrease in revenues. IMO, Whyte is gearing up to put them into liquidation should HMRC win, there has been incoming money which cant be accounted for (24.4 million from the ticket company and 3 million from transfers) He isnt paying anything at the moment, he owes Hearts, never paid the small tax bill which is not about 4 million, he didnt pay for Cellik either. He isnt calling for an AGM because he would have to show where the money is gone.


If they don't get the books signed off they won't qualify to play in Europe next season.

From the Herald;
Every club needs an SFA licence to compete in the Uefa tournaments. That is granted only if the club proves it doesn't owe money to other clubs, its employees or Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. The SFA needs to see audited accounts before a licence can be granted to play in Europe. So far, Rangers have not submitted such accounts to the SFA. They have until March 31 to do so, although there is some leeway for up to two weeks after that. But unless those audited accounts land at the SFA Rangers will not play in Europe next season, whether they are in administration or not.

HFC 0-7
10-02-2012, 05:01 PM
If they don't get the books signed off they won't qualify to play in Europe next season.

From the Herald;
Every club needs an SFA licence to compete in the Uefa tournaments. That is granted only if the club proves it doesn't owe money to other clubs, its employees or Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. The SFA needs to see audited accounts before a licence can be granted to play in Europe. So far, Rangers have not submitted such accounts to the SFA. They have until March 31 to do so, although there is some leeway for up to two weeks after that. But unless those audited accounts land at the SFA Rangers will not play in Europe next season, whether they are in administration or not.

As it stands though, they do owe money to other clubs and they owe money to HMRC. Whyte didnt dispute the small tax bill for about 2 million and although he said he would pay it he hasnt and now with penalties its about 4 million. Whyte doesnt appear to have paid anything since buying Rangers, he has sold players and future ST's. the first repayment of the ST's werent even really paid, he just sold more future ST's to cover it. If he did put his hand in his pocket to pay Lloyds off then he has probably got the money back as the 24.4 million from the ticket company seems to be nowhere now.

Baker9
10-02-2012, 05:41 PM
... they would need to be captured. No way they would come willingly.:greengrin

If the reasonable ones (there are some) had nowhere to go for their football fix and Pat Fenlon had us organised into a decent team I think some would come, plus neutrals and 'new' supporters who no longer had a choice of two teams. 'Mon the Edinburgh Hibs.

DH1875
10-02-2012, 06:08 PM
Cant believe they are paying 7.5k a week for a huddie like cousin

Makes you wonder how they couldn't agree a deal with Claros and we could.


Back on topic, I think some people get confused between administration and liquidation. They are two different beasts. Basically administration would lead to a points deduction and them selling their assets but they would be able to continue in the spl as long as the points deduction didn't put them last. Liquidation (what we all want) puts them OUT of business and going by the current league rules there would be NO way back for them. The rules state that if any team go into liquidation/out of business there will be NO relegation that year and the team coming up from the first simply take the place Rangers.

Kaiser1962
10-02-2012, 06:39 PM
So why the big stadium then, is it not a waste of money building a new 20,000 seater stadium if they new it would never sell out.

A nice thought would be the club building a smaller East stand and and putting some money aside for the player budget at the time instead of building a stand that will never sell out.


Perhaps they are over ambitious SH :greengrin

weonlywon6-2
10-02-2012, 07:02 PM
Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

youre correct,rangers will not die,but they are in a very bad state finacially and i think their only option will be to go into admin or liquidation.Craig White is just a front man in it all and does not have the money to support a team like rangers.He will be ousted by the fans before long.

There is bound to be consortiums in the background just waiting to come in at the right moment

John Greig leaving Rangers was the biggest sign there was an issue

snooky
10-02-2012, 07:23 PM
So why the big stadium then, is it not a waste of money building a new 20,000 seater stadium if they new it would never sell out.

A nice thought would be the club building a smaller East stand and and putting some money aside for the player budget at the time instead of building a stand that will never sell out.

If Rangers get their just rewards and the other 11 bring Celtic to heel ... maybes no', maybes aye :wink:

magpie1892
10-02-2012, 07:35 PM
If they don't get the books signed off they won't qualify to play in Europe next season.

From the Herald;
Every club needs an SFA licence to compete in the Uefa tournaments. That is granted only if the club proves it doesn't owe money to other clubs, its employees or Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. The SFA needs to see audited accounts before a licence can be granted to play in Europe. So far, Rangers have not submitted such accounts to the SFA. They have until March 31 to do so, although there is some leeway for up to two weeks after that. But unless those audited accounts land at the SFA Rangers will not play in Europe next season, whether they are in administration or not.

Absolute tripe. Virtually every club on the planet owes money to other clubs when a transfer fee is paid up over 18/24/46 months or however long (and this is still the norm). It's delinquency in debt to other clubs that is the issue, not debt in itself.

Macaroon
10-02-2012, 08:42 PM
Like the idea, but while it will provide a more competitive and interesting domestic league the salary cap would make decent European progress almost impossible. And as much as it is a pain to listen to the Ugly Sisters' deranged smugness when they are in the Champ League etc, it's good for scottish football and the national team. This makes me think that the SFA will laugh at the suggestion if i'm honest.

Ozyhibby
10-02-2012, 09:02 PM
Like the idea, but while it will provide a more competitive and interesting domestic league the salary cap would make decent European progress almost impossible. And as much as it is a pain to listen to the Ugly Sisters' deranged smugness when they are in the Champ League etc, it's good for scottish football and the national team. This makes me think that the SFA will laugh at the suggestion if i'm honest.

It's not up to SFA. They don't control the SPL.

Macaroon
10-02-2012, 09:05 PM
It's not up to SFA. They don't control the SPL.


No they don't do they :tee hee: Bit of a mind blank.

Still though. [Further] Failure to compete in Euroupe would be very damaging to the Scottish football as a whole imo

Since90+2
10-02-2012, 09:28 PM
Correct. I loathe Rangers but the objective reality is that they are by a distance the best supported club in Scotland..it wouldn't suprpise me if over 30% of Scots were Rangers fans. They are a hugely important social and cultural part of the national life.....loathsome and shameful but a central reality in Scottish life and they are going nowhere. They will struggle but will continue.

They must have been the worst managed football team in history if they are going bust with about 1.5 Million supporters!

Them and Celtic will have roughly the same size of support , Celtic if anything in recent times slightly larger.

Ozyhibby
13-02-2012, 04:54 PM
It will be interesting to see if the club now has the courage to act to even out this league for good.

silverhibee
14-02-2012, 11:29 AM
Perhaps they are over ambitious SH :greengrin


Obviously they were, as Part/Time Supporter pointed out to me that they wanted to make the East bigger than it is now. :greengrin

Time to start filling in the corners as well. :greengrin

GloryGlory
14-02-2012, 11:37 AM
They must have been the worst managed football team in history if they are going bust with about 1.5 Million supporters!

Them and Celtic will have roughly the same size of support , Celtic if anything in recent times slightly larger.

Or hingers-oan or gloryhunters as they are better described! :wink:

Dashing Bob S
14-02-2012, 12:38 PM
This begs the question. Would 45,000 turn up every week to see a team that was not winning?

The poor crowd for the Cup match against Dundee United reminded me of the time when the Tangerines won the SFL title and Rangers were getting crowds below 10,000.Murray has been trying to sell Rangers for years. If there is a consortium waiting to take over why did they not act earlier?

Rangers in the past have had the benefit of forays into the Champions League group stages. That does not look likely for the future given the harder qualification route for Scottish teams given the fall in the coefficient.

The most likely scenario is that if Rangers go bust a new club: Glasgow Rangers or Rangers (2012) would be formed. They would have to seek a place in the SFL Division 3 or buy another SFL club franchaise (Livingston, Cowdenbeath?).

Once Rangers are gone the SPL clubs could outvote Celtic 11-1 to change the terms of cash distribution.


I think this is the crux of it. Despite their loud, ostentatious proclamations in support of their side, Celtic's 50,000 and Rangers 45,000 'regulars' are comprised of the same proportion of glory hunters as our own 35-40,000 who want League Cup final tickets. They just have more glory to hunt.

Imagine the season ticket sales at ER and the PBS if you could absolutely guarantee in advance that Hibs and Hearts would be battling it out for the SPL title come May, and would steamroller all other SPL sides en route. I suspect they would have to groundshare Murrayfield.

I recall David Murray once saying, about a couple of years into his purchase of Rangers, that their real core support was only around 8,000. I think Murray was playing down that figure, in order to boost his crowing about his own achievements, but the principle still holds. I recall reading about a Rangers-Partick Glasgow derby at Ibrox, just before Murray and Souness, which was attended by 1,700 fans, half of whom were supporting Thistle! That was a freakishly low Gary MacKay testimonial style crowd, but it shows the "follow, follow' and 'loyal' propaganda comes largely from the simple minds of the obsese inhabitants of small, one-horse Scottish towns everywhere, who would switch to bingo or their local team if the glory fix wasn't forthcoming from Ibrox (or Parkhead).

happiehibbie
14-02-2012, 12:44 PM
Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

Belive me Rangers are finished HMRC do not do deals WHY because the money due is to the Public and the Queen (if you like) from now no one will do Businnes with the huns why would you becuse you wont get paid simple

Football teams do not have the right to survive as of anyo other bussines remember the Bank went bust !!! the government stepped in no one will step in with this type of monies RIP rangers

Sunny1875
14-02-2012, 02:45 PM
I mentioned this on another thread, if they go pop, they will get back somehow, i think we all know that.

Where we can win here is smashing the 11-1 voting scandal. We could if all the clubs apart from the smellies wanted, make this a much fairer league.

Equal shares of everything the league earns, we could really make this league work better. I wonder if those clubs bar the smellies have the balls?


Who at our club and all the other clubs do we need to lobby to make this happen, If the fan base of each club outside the OF present their board with this request would it be more likely to happen ?

could someone on here organise a petition to be presented to the club asking for this ridiculous voting rule to be changed. If it took off here i'm confident other fan sites would pick up on it too.

WindyMiller
14-02-2012, 05:59 PM
I think this is the crux of it. Despite their loud, ostentatious proclamations in support of their side, Celtic's 50,000 and Rangers 45,000 'regulars' are comprised of the same proportion of glory hunters as our own 35-40,000 who want League Cup final tickets. They just have more glory to hunt.

Imagine the season ticket sales at ER and the PBS if you could absolutely guarantee in advance that Hibs and Hearts would be battling it out for the SPL title come May, and would steamroller all other SPL sides en route. I suspect they would have to groundshare Murrayfield.

I recall David Murray once saying, about a couple of years into his purchase of Rangers, that their real core support was only around 8,000. I think Murray was playing down that figure, in order to boost his crowing about his own achievements, but the principle still holds. I recall reading about a Rangers-Partick Glasgow derby at Ibrox, just before Murray and Souness, which was attended by 1,700 fans, half of whom were supporting Thistle! That was a freakishly low Gary MacKay testimonial style crowd, but it shows the "follow, follow' and 'loyal' propaganda comes largely from the simple minds of the obsese inhabitants of small, one-horse Scottish towns everywhere, who would switch to bingo or their local team if the glory fix wasn't forthcoming from Ibrox (or Parkhead).


Who is this person,freakishly low Gary MacKay, who's name I see posted on here from time to time?

Some famous, medal-strewn player of days gone by?

Some Scottish footballing legend, so revered by the fans that 10's of thousands flocked to his testimonial?

:dunno: