Get rid o east mains

[billbee]

Im probabbly just as upset as most fans, this has always been the Hibs way,blowin hot and cold, but I will always be Hibs till I die! thats just the way way it is, when were bad, were bad, and when were good were good! Since the EM was opened think about it, its been a diaster. Day after it opened JC walked and we have slowly went down and down, in fitness, tacticts, attitudes, footballing set pieces etc.shut EM down swallow our pride its NO WORKED, get the players back to ER the Spiritual home on a DAILY basis not every two weeks for 90 minitues. Bring them back to Leith!! I know all about, we cannie find a place to train stuff !! but we managed for years, council pitches local gyms, so be it, none o them have a sense o pride of ER or what we are about, It didnt do Eddie, Joe or any of our past greats any harm! We are a Great Football team with a proud history, mybe im just a sentimentalist, or just a pissed off as everyone, I love my team and loved it as a kid hanging arround Albion Road to get a glimse of a player and mybe a signiture, Hibs felt part of my community and now feel like strangers! Mind you nowadays seeing them would bring nightmares, mybe bad enough seeing them once a week, aye Im sad Im usually home and away! . Naw Ive had it with all this top o the range facilities, its bought and paid for from selling the family silverware (naw its NO) HIBS GET BACK TO BASICS............. RANT END :rolleyes: but hey I will keep goin !

[huggie1875]

I blame the rodent that buried the ****my top under the new stand cant we mine it out lol

[The Green Goblin]

I agree with the op about EM doing nothing for us. If their own stadium and public parks are good enough for the teams that are miles above us in the league and regularly pumping us, including yesterday's, then that tells its own story.

If you disagree with that, then that's fine, as long as you can point out to me something it has done to benefit us that I have missed.

[cocopops1875]

Get rid of Easter Road we rarely win there.

[Dr Jimmy]

I blame the rodent that buried the ****my top under the new stand cant we mine it out lol

The stupid cow buried it during the demolition, it would have been dug out when the foundations were dug out and laid. Hope that helps...;-)

[Minder]

Im probabbly just as upset as most fans, this has always been the Hibs way,blowin hot and cold, but I will always be Hibs till I die! thats just the way way it is, when were bad, were bad, and when were good were good! Since the EM was opened think about it, its been a diaster. Day after it opened JC walked and we have slowly went down and down, in fitness, tacticts, attitudes, footballing set pieces etc.shut EM down swallow our pride its NO WORKED, get the players back to ER the Spiritual home on a DAILY basis not every two weeks for 90 minitues. Bring them back to Leith!! I know all about, we cannie find a place to train stuff !! but we managed for years, council pitches local gyms, so be it, none o them have a sense o pride of ER or what we are about, It didnt do Eddie, Joe or any of our past greats any harm! We are a Great Football team with a proud history, mybe im just a sentimentalist, or just a pissed off as everyone, I love my team and loved it as a kid hanging arround Albion Road to get a glimse of a player and mybe a signiture, Hibs felt part of my community and now feel like strangers! Mind you nowadays seeing them would bring nightmares, mybe bad enough seeing them once a week, aye Im sad Im usually home and away! . Naw Ive had it with all this top o the range facilities, its bought and paid for from selling the family silverware (naw its NO) HIBS GET BACK TO BASICS............. RANT END :rolleyes: but hey I will keep goin !

:top marks

Up and down Arthur's Seat, Gullane Sands or a mini bus to Gypsy Brae is exactly what these so called professionals need. Leith links or the Meadows would be fine for public training sessions. Back to basics old school training exactly what we need even for a few weeks. We need the Eye of the Tiger for what lies ahead the rest of this season not a bunch of pussy's. Start off with getting the first team into the Hibs club, so they can see the pain and anger with an open meet the fans who are paying your wages session.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I take a different point of view in that the existance of our superb training facilities, crosses one of the major excuses for under performance off the list. If anything, it brings it in to sharper focus, when you see teams like DUFC on the telly, training on muddy public parks or crumbling junior grounds.

[billbee]

:top marks

Up and down Arthur's Seat, Gullane Sands or a mini bus to Gypsy Brae is exactly what these so called professionals need. Leith links or the Meadows would be fine for public training sessions. Back to basics old school training exactly what we need even for a few weeks. We need the Eye of the Tiger for what lies ahead the rest of this season not a bunch of pussy's. Start off with getting the first team into the Hibs club, so they can see the pain and anger with an open meet the fans who are paying your wages session.

Way to go Minder - Bring back Wee Dougie (PT Man) as Big John Mac would say - Lets All Get Up For This One - comon Hibs catch a grip!!

[calumb]

I take a different point of view in that the existance of our superb training facilities, crosses one of the major excuses for under performance off the list. If anything, it brings it in to sharper focus, when you see teams like DUFC on the telly, training on muddy public parks or crumbling junior grounds.

Fenlon said when he arrived that there is no point having the best facilities in the world if you don't use them. Pats had 3 months with top class facilities and its still looks like no-one is using them.

Maybe the club should install some mobile homes down there then we could charge families to share in the holiday experience going on in east lothian.

[Sammy7nil]

East Mains is NOT the problem.

The problem is a lack of organisation, quality, drive, desire and deterination.

Four Mangers have so far been able to put a Hibs team on the park that is organised and difficult to beat with the previous 2 being totally inept.

We have to sort out the defence and with an old croc who looks past it and 3 players 22 or younger that aint gonna happen.

Over to Pat and the board 9 days and counting tick tock.

[Scouse Hibee]

Wait a minute how's that really going to help, every player that we have signed or loaned recently has made reference to the clubs superb training facilities as being one of the reasons they were attracted to the club. Without this facility we would never have been able to sign players of this calibre, where would we be without them.

[Spike Mandela]

East Mains is NOT the problem.

.

Equally it is NOT the solution.

EM and the new stand were a big waste of money imo and the strategy taken by Hibs to fund these rather than improve wages on the team is the reason we are where we are now. Not a popular view on .net I realise but one that would unfortunately be vindicated should Hibs be relegated.

[Sammy7nil]

Equally it is NOT the solution.

EM and the new stand were a big waste of money imo and the strategy taken by Hibs to fund these rather than improve wages on the team is the reason we are where we are now. Not a popular view on .net I realise but one that would unfortunately be vindicated should Hibs be relegated.

I agree but we are where we are if we could go back in time EM and the stand should never have been built so close together without getting a winning team on the park.

But

We are where we are and blaming EM now for poor performance is simply wrong.

[Eyrie]

I'm not convinced that the money invested in East Mains and the East Stand would have been spent wisely by Hughes or Calderwood.

It's more likely we'd have simply had better paid Calderduds cluttering up the first team squad on longer contracts making it harder for Fenlon to turn things round.

[calumb]

I agree but we are where we are if we could go back in time EM and the stand should never have been built so close together without getting a winning team on the park.

But

We are where we are and blaming EM now for poor performance is simply wrong.

Did the stand not have to be built when it was due to planning permissions running out?

[Minder]

I'm not convinced that the money invested in East Mains and the East Stand would have been spent wisely by Hughes or Calderwood.

It's more likely we'd have simply had better paid Calderduds cluttering up the first team squad on longer contracts making it harder for Fenlon to turn things round.

If we had invested in squad at right time we would not have had Calderwood or Hughes !

[cocopops1875]

East mains in my opinion was money well spent (apparently from a grass roots level its a godsend) its in use 7 days a week , its great for the squad to have a settled place to train without dog sh*t and needles kicking about. The east stand however i believed had to be built due to planning ? And we got it at a good price . Imagine we had an incomplete stadium that could not be finished given the mess them over the road are in

[basehibby]

Equally it is NOT the solution.

EM and the new stand were a big waste of money imo and the strategy taken by Hibs to fund these rather than improve wages on the team is the reason we are where we are now. Not a popular view on .net I realise but one that would unfortunately be vindicated should Hibs be relegated.

EM has certainly not made an appreciable positive impact on either the fitness and preparedness of the first team or the production of talent from the youth team - so far anyway. And it's probably safe to say that had £10M been spent on the first team squad rather than EM and the new East stand, we wouldn't be watching a team staring the prospect of relegation in the face right now.

However, the benefit acrued from such an investment on the park, although (hopefully) very enjoyable, would almost definately have been transitory in nature and we should not lose sight of the fact that EM and the stadium are there for keeps and their value should be viewed over a number of decades rather than the two or three years we've had from them so far.

It is therefore NOT my view that EM and the East stand are a waste of money - however, the board have missed a massive trick in NOT recognising the need for parallel investment in the football team - and I don't just mean a steady 60% of turn over kind of investment. What has been sorely missed is the kind of marquee appointments both in the manager's chair and the first team which will generate some excitement, put bums on seats and fill up these lovely new stands.

This should have been part of the business plan for upgrading the stadium and increasing capacity and not factoring this in has been a massive error IMO. Long suffering supporters are registering their exasperation by voting with their feet and you cannot blame them - you could go to a flash cinema with big plush seats etc but if the film is utterly gash then that will not stop you from walking out and doing something more enjoyable instead.

[scoopyboy]

Im probabbly just as upset as most fans, this has always been the Hibs way,blowin hot and cold, but I will always be Hibs till I die! thats just the way way it is, when were bad, were bad, and when were good were good! Since the EM was opened think about it, its been a diaster. Day after it opened JC walked and we have slowly went down and down, in fitness, tacticts, attitudes, footballing set pieces etc.shut EM down swallow our pride its NO WORKED, get the players back to ER the Spiritual home on a DAILY basis not every two weeks for 90 minitues. Bring them back to Leith!! I know all about, we cannie find a place to train stuff !! but we managed for years, council pitches local gyms, so be it, none o them have a sense o pride of ER or what we are about, It didnt do Eddie, Joe or any of our past greats any harm! We are a Great Football team with a proud history, mybe im just a sentimentalist, or just a pissed off as everyone, I love my team and loved it as a kid hanging arround Albion Road to get a glimse of a player and mybe a signiture, Hibs felt part of my community and now feel like strangers! Mind you nowadays seeing them would bring nightmares, mybe bad enough seeing them once a week, aye Im sad Im usually home and away! . Naw Ive had it with all this top o the range facilities, its bought and paid for from selling the family silverware (naw its NO) HIBS GET BACK TO BASICS............. RANT END :rolleyes: but hey I will keep goin !

Just close the club down and that saves a helluva lot of bother.

[Andy74]

It'll serve us well for years to come long after the current duds have been cleared out. There are no substitutes for decent players that work hard.

[h1bs4life]

East Mains does appear to be a waste of money, certainly no improvement in the 1st team since it opened. How much does it cost to run? People go on about how teams above us like St Johnstone seem to be able to pick up better players than us.Could it be that they dont have to pay for an expensive board of directors , run a training centre with youth teams etc with no one coming through and concentrate in putting all there available money into their 1st team.Would be interesting to know how much we pay out on the board, training centre etc before we even think about 1st team players wages.

[The_Todd]

East Mains would be great if you had the players to take advantage. You can't polish a turd. But those saying EM is the cause of our problems? To that I say: "Correlation does not imply causation"

EM doesn't seem to be working because CC and others have filled our squad with utter garbage.

[calumb]

East Mains does appear to be a waste of money, certainly no improvement in the 1st team since it opened. How much does it cost to run? People go on about how teams above us like St Johnstone seem to be able to pick up better players than us.Could it be that they dont have to pay for an expensive board of directors , run a training centre with youth teams etc with no one coming through and concentrate in putting all there available money into their 1st team.Would be interesting to know how much we pay out on the board, training centre etc before we even think about 1st team players wages.

I am sure somebody on here said it cost 500,000 a year just to have east mains open so when you add the directors salaries of nearly the same its nearly 1 million to have some grass to run about on and to have a few guys in offices not doing much.
On a turnover of 7 million thats a massive dent that some other clubs do not have to deal with.

[Scouse Hibee]

I am sure somebody on here said it cost 500,000 a year just to have east mains open so when you add the directors salaries of nearly the same its nearly 1 million to have some grass to run about on and to have a few guys in offices not doing much.
On a turnover of 7 million thats a massive dent that some other clubs do not have to deal with.


Does it bring in any revenue, not sure but do we hire the facilities out?

[cocopops1875]

They do on a Sunday night I play in the league thats run there . Not sure how it works as I'm pretty sure it wasn't allowed to be commercial

[Twa Cairpets]

With allowances made for post-defeat reaction, the OP (and a few of the other posts) is depressingly stupid. (I'm not insulting the poster, just the contents of the post).

Hibs.net after a defeat or setback is often a refuge for faintly barking and/or manic depressive posts (we're doomed I tell ye, doomed!) but this takes at least one of the custard creams out of the biscuit barrel.

Why is that people post things like this? People seriously think that removing a training faciltiy will benefit the team now or in the future? That if we have any pretensions of being a well run forward thinking club players/managers will be looking for this type of thing? That the prospect of running around the Queens Park or lopping a couple of jackets down for goalposts at Leith Links will attract any players?

As The Todd says, correlation is not causation. A training centre used well will improve players. Used badly it will be, at the very worst, neutral.

There is a reason why every succesful club in European football have decided that having a dedicated place to train is a good thing. But no, not us.

[hstn747]

East Mains would be great if you had the players to take advantage. You can't polish a turd. But those saying EM is the cause of our problems? To that I say: "Correlation does not imply causation"

EM doesn't seem to be working because CC and others have filled our squad with utter garbage.


No, but you can roll it in glitter.


I think the training facility is proving to be a drain on the budget and we've perhaps lost the team building effect that trianing in less than ideal facilities brings. Travelling around in mini buses looking for facilities can probably help bring a team together rather than turning up at a training centre in their own cars.

We're also suffering from short termism. How many of our players are brought here with a suggestion that if they do well they'll be able to move on to bigger things? How many are coming to Hibs thinking that they could actually be here long enough to sign a contract extension?

Ambition is good but we need players who want to be here, be part of something. When was the last time we had a team with a solid spine? Even when we got close under Collins there was still a keeper flapping around at the back.

[Spike Mandela]

With allowances made for post-defeat reaction, the OP (and a few of the other posts) is depressingly stupid. (I'm not insulting the poster, just the contents of the post).

Hibs.net after a defeat or setback is often a refuge for faintly barking and/or manic depressive posts (we're doomed I tell ye, doomed!) but this takes at least one of the custard creams out of the biscuit barrel.

Why is that people post things like this? People seriously think that removing a training faciltiy will benefit the team now or in the future? That if we have any pretensions of being a well run forward thinking club players/managers will be looking for this type of thing? That the prospect of running around the Queens Park or lopping a couple of jackets down for goalposts at Leith Links will attract any players?

As The Todd says, correlation is not causation. A training centre used well will improve players. Used badly it will be, at the very worst, neutral.

There is a reason why every succesful club in European football have decided that having a dedicated place to train is a good thing. But no, not us.

We never had a training centre for over 125 years of our existence as a club but the now we have one nothing has improved. Yet according to you Every forward thinking club must have one and anyone against it is showing crass stupidity.

For me the players we have just now look as though they would benefit from a few laps round a public park avoiding dog turds and using jumpers for goal posts. For me it is all for show, "look at us we're a forward thinking club, well run and an example to others financially". Unfortunately it's all 'fur coat and nae knickers'.

[tamig]

With allowances made for post-defeat reaction, the OP (and a few of the other posts) is depressingly stupid. (I'm not insulting the poster, just the contents of the post).

Hibs.net after a defeat or setback is often a refuge for faintly barking and/or manic depressive posts (we're doomed I tell ye, doomed!) but this takes at least one of the custard creams out of the biscuit barrel.

Why is that people post things like this? People seriously think that removing a training faciltiy will benefit the team now or in the future? That if we have any pretensions of being a well run forward thinking club players/managers will be looking for this type of thing? That the prospect of running around the Queens Park or lopping a couple of jackets down for goalposts at Leith Links will attract any players?

As The Todd says, correlation is not causation. A training centre used well will improve players. Used badly it will be, at the very worst, neutral.

There is a reason why every succesful club in European football have decided that having a dedicated place to train is a good thing. But no, not us.

Couldn't agree more.

[silverhibee]

East mains in my opinion was money well spent (apparently from a grass roots level its a godsend) its in use 7 days a week , its great for the squad to have a settled place to train without dog sh*t and needles kicking about. The east stand however i believed had to be built due to planning ? And we got it at a good price . Imagine we had an incomplete stadium that could not be finished given the mess them over the road are in


How much did EM cost to build and how much does it cost to maintain each year.

[LeithBoozy]

Apart from being an state of the art training facility, it is also a future asset. It was valued at 6 million in 2008, dont forget Hibs also have another 23 acres of land undeveloped, so are sitting on a future goldmine that will only ever increase in value.

[Sammy7nil]

Apart from being an state of the art training facility, it is also a future asset. It was valued at 6 million in 2008, dont forget Hibs also have another 23 acres of land undeveloped, so are sitting on a future goldmine that will only ever increase in value.


If that is the case perhaps we should sell some of the gold and invest on the pitch just a thought.

We are a Football Club not a bank.

[Since90+2]

Wait a minute how's that really going to help, every player that we have signed or loaned recently has made reference to the clubs superb training facilities as being one of the reasons they were attracted to the club. Without this facility we would never have been able to sign players of this calibre, where would we be without them.


And what calibre of player are we talking about here? Agogo , O'Hanlon , Thornhill?

[Spike Mandela]

And what calibre of player are we talking about here? Agogo , O'Hanlon , Thornhill?

whoooooosh:duck:

[Dr Jimmy]

Apart from being an state of the art training facility, it is also a future asset. It was valued at 6 million in 2008, dont forget Hibs also have another 23 acres of land undeveloped, so are sitting on a future goldmine that will only ever increase in value.

Are you sure Hibs own the extra land and not STF?

[Big Frank]

Yes, you are right. Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility.

:aok:

[Spike Mandela]

Yes, you are right. Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility.

:aok:

Is your experience of supporting Hibs enhanced by having a superb training facility? Thought not.:rolleyes:

[Big Frank]

Is your experience of supporting Hibs enhanced by having a superb training facility? Thought not.:rolleyes:

You roll yer eyes all you want spike.. You're completely right Spike.... Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility. :aok:

Crap thread.

[cocopops1875]

How much did EM cost to build and how much does it cost to maintain each year.

£5m to build and £500,000 per year to run ish . :confused: i assume there is to be a punchline ?

[Heckys Wheel]

You roll yer eyes all you want spike.. You're completely right Spike.... Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility. :aok:

Crap thread.

Ha ha I've been trying to think of something to say that shows this thread up for the tripe it is but this sums it.

You ever noticed Hibs were better when you could only buy black boots and the players only drank water. I blame Predator boots and powerade for the state of our club!

In fact, did we not win the Scottish cup with one of those brown leather footballs with the stitching up them? Do away with these fancy Dan light weight balls and lets get back to winning cups again!

[Spike Mandela]

You roll yer eyes all you want spike.. You're completely right Spike.... Hibernian are **** because we have a superb training facility. :aok:

Crap thread.

Ok word it another way Frank are Hibs **** because we spent £9m on a training centre and stand but not on the team.

You can argue all you want about short termism but I am convinced money into the squad over these years would have benefited us more than a training centre. We would not be discussing relegation and I am sure we would not be enviously looking at other clubs with great facilities.

[Twa Cairpets]

We never had a training centre for over 125 years of our existence as a club but the now we have one nothing has improved. Yet according to you Every forward thinking club must have one and anyone against it is showing crass stupidity.

For me the players we have just now look as though they would benefit from a few laps round a public park avoiding dog turds and using jumpers for goal posts. For me it is all for show, "look at us we're a forward thinking club, well run and an example to others financially". Unfortunately it's all 'fur coat and nae knickers'.

Utter, utter tripe. Gonnae post to tell me that actually this is just a wind up I'm missing spectularly?

And yes, anyone claiming that we shouldnt have a state of the art training facility is absolutely showing crass stupidity. Your view appears to be one of "never did me any harm when I was a lad" rather than actually accepting that the world of professional is a tad different now than it was in the past. Defending your argument by some fallacious appeal to antiquity isn't making a point, it's crassly stupid.


No, but you can roll it in glitter.

I think the training facility is proving to be a drain on the budget and we've perhaps lost the team building effect that trianing in less than ideal facilities brings. Travelling around in mini buses looking for facilities can probably help bring a team together rather than turning up at a training centre in their own cars.

We're also suffering from short termism. How many of our players are brought here with a suggestion that if they do well they'll be able to move on to bigger things? How many are coming to Hibs thinking that they could actually be here long enough to sign a contract extension?

Ambition is good but we need players who want to be here, be part of something. When was the last time we had a team with a solid spine? Even when we got close under Collins there was still a keeper flapping around at the back.

Ye Gods. This is not an Sunday Amateur team (admittedly at times this season I've wondered, but it's nothing to do with not driving around together in a minibus looking for a bit of grass).

Short termism? The irony is lost on you obviously - how many pro players are going to accept this vision of 1970's-esque faux camaeraderie for any length of time when better options are out there. EVERY player at EVERY club is looking to do the best they can for their career be that moving on to a higher level or knuckling down to be a key player at the club. Different motivations for players at different ages and stages of their career, but in a short career of course its going to be short term. You're labouring under the misapphension that players play for a club for the same altruistic reasons fans go to the games. There may be a cross over of motive for some, but for the most part its down to raw economics.

[Brizo]

In EM we have EPL standard facilities but operate in a marketplace where we can only attract players from the lower English leagues or those with baggage such as GOC and Griffiths. Daily exposure to those facilities has done nothing to improve the technique or ability of the conveyor belt of journeyman signings who have left the club just as p@sh as the day they arrived. You can stable the store horse at Epsom but its still the store horse.

As for it attracting players no doubt players will cite it as a factor when they sign but have any said they were offered more money elsewhere but chose Hibs with less wages because of the attraction of EM ? Prospective signings will choose a club with public park training facilities over us and EM every time if that other club offer them better wages.

I agree we needed a designated training facility but feel we could have got one cheaper than the 5 mill cost and £500,000 annual upkeep costs quoted by a previous poster. Weve got champagne facilities for pomagne players which imho is a disparity which hasnt proved cost effective.

[Twa Cairpets]

In EM we have EPL standard facilities but operate in a marketplace where we can only attract players from the lower English leagues or those with baggage such as GOC and Griffiths. Daily exposure to those facilities has done nothing to improve the technique or ability of the conveyor belt of journeyman signings who have left the club just as p@sh as the day they arrived. You can stable the store horse at Epsom but its still the store horse.

As for it attracting players no doubt players will cite it as a factor when they sign but have any said they were offered more money elsewhere but chose Hibs with less wages because of the attraction of EM ? Prospective signings will choose a club with public park training facilities over us and EM every time if that other club offer them better wages.

I agree we needed a designated training facility but feel we could have got one cheaper than the 5 mill cost and £500,000 annual upkeep costs quoted by a previous poster. Weve got champagne facilities for pomagne players which imho is a disparity which hasnt proved cost effective.

Before this £500K pa becomes accepted wisdom, is there any actual proof or evidence of this? Is there any comparison between what this costs and the costs associated with not having a facility - gyms, transport etc? If uit is this figure (and it might be, I dont know it does seem high, but that is entirely a different point).

as fo rthe level of players available, yes, youre right, but in the assumption that all other factors are equal, and wages are of marginal difference between us and our direct competitors, then the presence of the facility may make a difference in the decision making process.

Whilst a lot does come to economics as I've said, equally there is the view of "what next?". If a club is set up to take care of you as a player it will appear more. An analogy is the industry I work in. Companies have offered my clients better financial packages, but they have not had these backed up by what is behind them by way of facilities, and there is greater confidence in looking at the whole package. EM is part of that package. It should also provide a much better environement for youth players to develop in.

[Sammy7nil]

Perhaps we could sell EM I hear there is a BIG team in Edinburgh looking for land to build a stadium and training facliities?

[blackpoolhibs]

Get rid of Easter Road we rarely win there.

:agree: Every team even the best have a bogy ground, ours just happens to be easter road. :boo hoo:

[calumb]

Perhaps we could sell EM I hear there is a BIG team in Edinburgh looking for land to build a stadium and training facliities?

Do Hibs actually own the place to sell, i know it was paid for by selling the golden generation but does STF not own it? or is that just the extra land across the road?

[Spike Mandela]

Utter, utter tripe. Gonnae post to tell me that actually this is just a wind up I'm missing spectularly?

And yes, anyone claiming that we shouldnt have a state of the art training facility is absolutely showing crass stupidity. Your view appears to be one of "never did me any harm when I was a lad" rather than actually accepting that the world of professional is a tad different now than it was in the past. Defending your argument by some fallacious appeal to antiquity isn't making a point, it's crassly stupid.



Ye Gods. This is not an Sunday Amateur team (admittedly at times this season I've wondered, but it's nothing to do with not driving around together in a minibus looking for a bit of grass).

Short termism? The irony is lost on you obviously - how many pro players are going to accept this vision of 1970's-esque faux camaeraderie for any length of time when better options are out there. EVERY player at EVERY club is looking to do the best they can for their career be that moving on to a higher level or knuckling down to be a key player at the club. Different motivations for players at different ages and stages of their career, but in a short career of course its going to be short term. You're labouring under the misapphension that players play for a club for the same altruistic reasons fans go to the games. There may be a cross over of motive for some, but for the most part its down to raw economics.

Not going to fall in to the trap of ridiculing your opinion or calling others stupid, i prefer to put it that I fundemantally disagree with you twocarpets.

The brutal fact is I don't care where the players train or how professional that makes us look to the outside world, I don't care that we have a shiny new stand instead of just giving the old one a lick of paint.

I only care about what I pay to watch every season. The training centre and the stand were a 'nice to have' but I believe the state the team is in now is an inevitability due to the strategy of investing in infrastructure at the expense of the team.

But, we are where we are, and Hibs will have a good side again at some point and we will have many troughs before a peak possibly even relegation(hope not). I just sometimes wonder if we could have been self sustaining by investing our riches in better players and selling them on, we will never know.

The fact I mentioned the length of time we have existed without a training centre wasn't some romantic longing for the older days I just meant we weren't going to collapse in to an abyss because we didn't have a training centre. We may have had a progressive outlook as a modern football club but we have regressed as a team.

[Big Frank]

Ok word it another way Frank are Hibs **** because we spent £9m on a training centre and stand but not on the team.

You can argue all you want about short termism but I am convinced money into the squad over these years would have benefited us more than a training centre. We would not be discussing relegation and I am sure we would not be enviously looking at other clubs with great facilities.

Now the stand aswell......

Spike, its a lot of nonsense man.

We have crap players spike. The last 2 managers have been woeful (imho). We have bought awful players. We have not replaced adequately in areas all over the pitch. We have been crying out for a decent CH (x2) for years.

This is why we find ourselves fighting relegation Spike.

[Spike Mandela]

Now the stand aswell......

Spike, its a lot of nonsense man.

We have crap players spike. The last 2 managers have been woeful (imho). We have bought awful players. We have not replaced adequately in areas all over the pitch. We have been crying out for a decent CH (x2) for years.

This is why we find ourselves fighting relegation Spike.

Why is it difficult to accept that if we had more money and were shopping in a higher standard market place that CC, Mixu, Yogi and JC stood a better chance of picking up good players.

Is it not a universal truth that Rangers, Celtic and Hearts have better players because they spend more money than us. Hearts spent money they never had but we had money and chose to invest in infrastructure and not the team.

[cocopops1875]

Also surely the investments made were not bought and paid for outright some of the funds will have been based on a loan. Not sure as im no whizz with finance but would these not be only available against a "bricks and mortor purchase? So the let's call it 10million would not have been anywhere near that sum on the pitch. Ps how much have they horrible chuds from over the road put on the pitch ?

[Brizo]

Before this £500K pa becomes accepted wisdom, is there any actual proof or evidence of this? Is there any comparison between what this costs and the costs associated with not having a facility - gyms, transport etc? If uit is this figure (and it might be, I dont know it does seem high, but that is entirely a different point).

as fo rthe level of players available, yes, youre right, but in the assumption that all other factors are equal, and wages are of marginal difference between us and our direct competitors, then the presence of the facility may make a difference in the decision making process.

Whilst a lot does come to economics as I've said, equally there is the view of "what next?". If a club is set up to take care of you as a player it will appear more. An analogy is the industry I work in. Companies have offered my clients better financial packages, but they have not had these backed up by what is behind them by way of facilities, and there is greater confidence in looking at the whole package. EM is part of that package. It should also provide a much better environement for youth players to develop in.

Re para 1 im quoting a previous poster whose figures ive no reason to doubt altho agree 500k does appear high. What i dont think is in doubt is the 5 mill cost. I believe we needed a designated training facility but when JC opened it he was quoted as saying it was EPL standard and as ive previously said i feel thats a level of expenditure which wasnt necessary for our SPL needs. i believe a perfectly acceptable and fit for purpose facility could have been built much cheaper ... altho to prempt your next question i havent costed alternatives :wink:

Re para 2 how often are all factors equal , thats a hypothetical thats never going to happen in the real world. The centres been open a wee while now. Tell me a player whose come to us and cited EM as the main motivation for signing ie ahead of wages or living in Edinburgh. Leading on from that tell me a player who has come to Hibs whose ability and technique have improved significantly and who's cited daily use of EM as the reason. Tell me a player who has come and said that EM has not just made them a better player but a fitter one also. I cant think of any.

Re para 3 i think you credit the average player with too much intelligence. Im sure they like EM but do you honestly think if say Harlepool offered a player a few hundred quid more a month and training on Hartlepool beach theyd say im staying at Hibs because of EM. Its all about the paypacket. EM may well benefit youth players but its all about the raw material and the finding of that raw material. In that regard id have preferred to see money saved from building a less costly facilty channelled into building a more widespread and professional youth scouting system.

[Big Frank]

Why is it difficult to accept that if we had more money and were shopping in a higher standard market place that CC, Mixu, Yogi and JC stood a better chance of picking up good players.

Is it not a universal truth that Rangers, Celtic and Hearts have better players because they spend more money than us. Hearts spent money they never had but we had money and chose to invest in infrastructure and not the team.


Why is it difficult to accept that Hibernian have - its been repeatedly stated - the 4th biggest budget in Scotland, and yet we are 2nd bottom. You are equating more money equals more success. If this was the case... would we not be 4th in the league spike?

The club have built a cracking stand when it was prudent, costwise to Hibernian, with depressed prices. The old east was a *****hole spike and this was probably our last chance to do it. Required? yes.

Hibernian Fc training on jobby stained public parks all over the toon is a non starter. Training facility required? yes.

So back to the point. We have consistently had the budget to be fourth in this league (if what you say stands) but we are not. The budget available has been disgracefully utilised.

Arguements against the stand and the training ground make no sense at all.

The people who have been responsible for spending the budget would have done the same had the money used on the stands been available to them - they would have wasted it. We would be where we are now minus the stand and the EM.

[Sammy7nil]

Why is it difficult to accept that Hibernian have - its been repeatedly stated - the 4th biggest budget in Scotland, and yet we are 2nd bottom. You are equating more money equals more success. If this was the case... would we not be 4th in the league spike?

The club have built a cracking stand when it was prudent, costwise to Hibernian, with depressed prices. The old east was a *****hole spike and this was probably our last chance to do it. Required? yes.

Hibernian Fc training on jobby stained public parks all over the toon is a non starter. Training facility required? yes.

So back to the point. We have consistently had the budget to be fourth in this league (if what you say stands) but we are not. The budget available has been disgracefully utilised.

Arguements against the stand and the training ground make no sense at all.

The people who have been responsible for spending the budget would have done the same had the money used on the stands been available to them - they would have wasted it. We would be where we are now minus the stand and the EM.


The reason we think more money = more success is because it is a Fact proven over years and years.

Barca - Real Madrid most money most success
Man Utd Chelsea Arsenal now Man city most money most success
Milan clubs and Juventus most money most success
Bayern Munich most money most success
Rangers Celtic most money most success

You could through every league in the world money = success not imeadiate I will grant you but over time you invest money on players you will get success.

[Spike Mandela]

Why is it difficult to accept that Hibernian have - its been repeatedly stated - the 4th biggest budget in Scotland, and yet we are 2nd bottom. You are equating more money equals more success. If this was the case... would we not be 4th in the league spike?

The club have built a cracking stand when it was prudent, costwise to Hibernian, with depressed prices. The old east was a *****hole spike and this was probably our last chance to do it. Required? yes.

Hibernian Fc training on jobby stained public parks all over the toon is a non starter. Training facility required? yes.

So back to the point. We have consistently had the budget to be fourth in this league (if what you say stands) but we are not. The budget available has been disgracefully utilised.

Arguements against the stand and the training ground mae no sense at all.

The people who have been responsible for spending the budget would have done the same had the money used on the stands been available to them - they would have wasted it. We would be where we are now minus the stand and the EM.

This fourth biggest budget phrase get's trotted out a lot ( pedantically I should mention we are 5th behind Aberdeen this year:wink:) but i have a major reservation about this.

Yes a good Hibs team would benefit from this if they only required one or two new additions to improve the team but year on year managers have to try and compensate for weaknesses in every area of the team thus diluting our budget over too many new additions.

Our budget won't go far trying to improve the deficiences in our current team.

[Twa Cairpets]

Not going to fall in to the trap of ridiculing your opinion or calling others stupid, i prefer to put it that I fundemantally disagree with you twocarpets.

The brutal fact is I don't care where the players train or how professional that makes us look to the outside world, I don't care that we have a shiny new stand instead of just giving the old one a lick of paint.

I only care about what I pay to watch every season. The training centre and the stand were a 'nice to have' but I believe the state the team is in now is an inevitability due to the strategy of investing in infrastructure at the expense of the team.

But, we are where we are, and Hibs will have a good side again at some point and we will have many troughs before a peak possibly even relegation(hope not). I just sometimes wonder if we could have been self sustaining by investing our riches in better players and selling them on, we will never know.

The fact I mentioned the length of time we have existed without a training centre wasn't some romantic longing for the older days I just meant we weren't going to collapse in to an abyss because we didn't have a training centre. We may have had a progressive outlook as a modern football club but we have regressed as a team.

I'm ridiculing this particular opinion because it is ridiculous.

I cant think of a single Hibs fan who would disagree with the fact that we care what we watch, but you're just wrong in conflating the presence of what you call "nice to haves" with the success on the pitch over the short-term. It just doesnt work like that. The opportunity for Hibs to have consistently better teams over the long term is - without a shadow of doubt - enhanced by having a training centre where professional athletes can be prepared properly. EM is not a guarantee of success, but to want to close it, as per the OP, is just bonkers.

As for investing in better players - maybe in the short term we'd have been a few places better off, maybe we'd have got a few rounds extra in the cups, maybe we'd have finished a place or two higher, but we'd still be left with a crap stand and a a team playing dodge the jobby at training. How would that serve us for the future?

[Sammy7nil]

I'm ridiculing this particular opinion because it is ridiculous.

I cant think of a single Hibs fan who would disagree with the fact that we care what we watch, but you're just wrong in conflating the presence of what you call "nice to haves" with the success on the pitch over the short-term. It just doesnt work like that. The opportunity for Hibs to have consistently better teams over the long term is - without a shadow of doubt - enhanced by having a training centre where professional athletes can be prepared properly. EM is not a guarantee of success, but to want to close it, as per the OP, is just bonkers.

As for investing in better players - maybe in the short term we'd have been a few places better off, maybe we'd have got a few rounds extra in the cups, maybe we'd have finished a place or two higher, but we'd still be left with a crap stand and a a team playing dodge the jobby at training. How would that serve us for the future?

Perhaps we might have had a cup or 2 you never know.

The future is great and your right we should think long term but for how long?

My dad died failing to see Hibs lift a Scottish Cup I am 50 I may well die too before we win the cup again. I have been patient and so was my dad how much longer should we be patient and invest in the future?

Motherwell St Mirren D Utd (2) Hearts (2) Aberdeen (3) have all won the cup whilst we are waiting patiently

[Twa Cairpets]

Re para 1 im quoting a previous poster whose figures ive no reason to doubt altho agree 500k does appear high. What i dont think is in doubt is the 5 mill cost. I believe we needed a designated training facility but when JC opened it he was quoted as saying it was EPL standard and as ive previously said i feel thats a level of expenditure which wasnt necessary for our SPL needs. i believe a perfectly acceptable and fit for purpose facility could have been built much cheaper ... altho to prempt your next question i havent costed alternatives :wink:
Nae probs. Perhaps someone has definitive figures. I think in general its better to invest as much as possible rather than cut corners - I dont know what the going rate for a training centre is so cant comment if its a lot or not.


Re para 2 how often are all factors equal , thats a hypothetical thats never going to happen in the real world. The centres been open a wee while now. Tell me a player whose come to us and cited EM as the main motivation for signing ie ahead of wages or living in Edinburgh. Leading on from that tell me a player who has come to Hibs whose ability and technique have improved significantly and who's cited daily use of EM as the reason. Tell me a player who has come and said that EM has not just made them a better player but a fitter one also. I cant think of any.
I meant that the approximate salaries offered, and lengths of contracts available are broadly similar to our competitors (apart from the obvious exceptions). As for your precise questions, I dont know the answer to any of them, but equally you cant make the claim that it hasnt improved players - we dont know because theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players. But intuitively it makes sense to believe that good conditions, good surfaces, good equipment and good resources are more likely to inprove things than not having them. How these facilities are used is a different matter, and that comes down to management ability. East Mains itself cannot, surely, offer the opportunity to do anything but improve a player if utilised properly


Re para 3 i think you credit the average player with too much intelligence. Im sure they like EM but do you honestly think if say Harlepool offered a player a few hundred quid more a month and training on Hartlepool beach theyd say im staying at Hibs because of EM. Its all about the paypacket. EM may well benefit youth players but its all about the raw material and the finding of that raw material. In that regard id have preferred to see money saved from building a less costly facilty channelled into building a more widespread and professional youth scouting system.

I've been to watch Hartlepool, and I'd suggest it'd take a lot more than few hundred quid extra to get someone down there:wink:

But the point is arguable. It will depend on individuals, where they are in their career, how keen they are to move. I dont think anyone would ever claim that EM is an overarching reason for a player staying or signing, but it must be a factor. along with staying in Edinburgh, salary, proximity to family etc. (It's always struck me as odd that more than most careers, football expects young guys to up sticks and move away from friends and family at the drop of a hat and immediatel ystart performing at the hughest level. Odd). And even if it is not a consideration on that process, its almost a moot point - the aim is surely to make players better. The bricks and mortar wont do that on their own, but can assist if, as I said above, it is used properly.

[Gatecrasher]

at the time i thought it was the way forward but now i think hibs should have built a smaller all weather facility. we need to keep it as we now have it imo

[Spike Mandela]

I'm ridiculing this particular opinion because it is ridiculous.

I cant think of a single Hibs fan who would disagree with the fact that we care what we watch, but you're just wrong in conflating the presence of what you call "nice to haves" with the success on the pitch over the short-term. It just doesnt work like that. The opportunity for Hibs to have consistently better teams over the long term is - without a shadow of doubt - enhanced by having a training centre where professional athletes can be prepared properly. EM is not a guarantee of success, but to want to close it, as per the OP, is just bonkers.

As for investing in better players - maybe in the short term we'd have been a few places better off, maybe we'd have got a few rounds extra in the cups, maybe we'd have finished a place or two higher, but we'd still be left with a crap stand and a a team playing dodge the jobby at training. How would that serve us for the future?

Can I just point out I am not advocating the closure of EM as per title of thread (like Ed Miliband i oppose the cuts but wouldn't reverse them:wink:). I believe the current position we are in is a direct result of spending on the infrastructure instead of the team. However we are stuck with them.

As for your second paragraph twocarpets this gets to the crux of where we respectively differ. I would rather have had the past few year of better players on better wages. Yes it may have been as you say but who is to say it wouldn't have been cup wins, European excursions and fabulous games of football at a packed ER.

I don't know about you but I am not getting any younger and would rather pay to see good quality teams and players now rather than invest to ensure the next generation get a good team in 20 years.time. Perhaps selfish but my honest, heartfelt opinion.

[cocopops1875]

Perhaps we might have had a cup or 2 you never know.

The future is great and your right we should think long term but for how long?

My dad died failing to see Hibs lift a Scottish Cup I am 50 I may well die too before we win the cup again. I have been patient and so was my dad how much longer should we be patient and invest in the future?

Motherwell St Mirren D Utd (2) Hearts (2) Aberdeen (3) have all won the cup whilst we are waiting patiently

Perhaps we would, however i know for a fact we have a training centre and the best stadium outside the old firm :wink:

[Twa Cairpets]

Perhaps we might have had a cup or 2 you never know.

The future is great and your right we should think long term but for how long?

My dad died failing to see Hibs lift a Scottish Cup I am 50 I may well die too before we win the cup again. I have been patient and so was my dad how much longer should we be patient and invest in the future?

Motherwell St Mirren D Utd (2) Hearts (2) Aberdeen (3) have all won the cup whilst we are waiting patiently

Maybe. If I had a time machine and could see that not building EM would deliver the Scottish then I'd be up for some serious Back to the Future action.

As for timescale - realistically, I reckon you're looking at 5-10 years for it to be consistently delivering results that lift us above where we've been on average over the last 20-30 years. I think in order for this to be the case we need a period of competent managerial stability, and I optimistic that Fenlon will provide that, and we desparately need not to be relegated.

[Sammy7nil]

Perhaps we would, however i know for a fact we have a training centre and the best stadium outside the old firm :wink:

I know for a fact I am getting old and Hibs are a million miles away from any success. :cb

I also know I am becoming more impatient and selfish and I am desperate for something positive to happen at ER very very soon.

[Dr Jimmy]

Those advocating the closure of east mains are being dafty, but I do question the need to build and fund it ourselves.
Hearts have a good deal at Riccarton (when they pay the bill) and the council appear to be willing to listen to them whenever they need something. Could we not have done something with the council for part funding? I have bags if time for STF (esp during the HoH campaign), but the building of east mains looks over the top for what we needed and dare I say it.....increases the price STF may get for selling us.

BTW its also in the mddle of nowhere and must be a factor for parents who's kids have the choice between us and Hearts.

[cocopops1875]

Those advocating the closure of east mains are being dafty, but I do question the need to build and fund it ourselves.
Hearts have a good deal at Riccarton (when they pay the bill) and the council appear to be willing to listen to them whenever they need something. Could we not have done something with the council for part funding? I have bags if time for STF (esp during the HoH campaign), but the building of east mains looks over the top for what we needed and dare I say it.....increases the price STF may get for selling us.

BTW its also in the mddle of nowhere and must be a factor for parents who's kids have the choice between us and Hearts.

Many good points mate 1st though is our lovely council had no interest when a joint project at the jack kane was floated. 2nd Where do the hearts kids train i doubt its at Riccarton ? 3 Just out of interest what do you regard as "over the top"

[LeithBoozy]

As far as am aware Max, Hibs own EM outright. Money from the Brown and Thomson transfers were put aside and ring-fenced, so the argument that we should have bought players is academic. As once money has been ring-fenced, it is not possible to spend it on anything else.

[truehibernian]

It's not East Mains that' the problem, it is the players that have been allowed to come in, most of whom have not been playing regular football, many of whom have come to Hibs on the back of serious injuries........the prosecution leads with

Valdas Trakys.......more clubs than Tiger Woods
Michael Hart.......two long term absences at Preston due to injury, had not played regular football over two years there
Kevin McBride.......again, suffered injuries at Falkirk and came to Hibs not even a Falkirk regular
Matt Thornhill.......had never made inroads in the Forest first team and was a reserve footballer
Junior Agogo.........signed due to a 'pals act' IMHO
Victor Palsson.......reserve footballer, had not had any first team action other than loan spell (I think Dagenham ??)
Graham Stack....always a second or third choice keeper, has never established himself as a No1 at any club he has been at
Darryl Duffy.......was out the picture at a poor Bristol Rovers side, suffered injuries previously
Alan Gow........again, started to become the football mercenary, hadn't played any football of note at either Rangers or Norwich
Francis Dickoh.........out the picture at his Dutch club and I believe had attitude their too
Paddy Cregg........the 'old pals act' comes in again......in fairness, came but was never played
Ivan Sproule.......had become a bit part at Bristol, sent on loan and hadn't set the heather on fire at mighty Yeovil
Garry O'Connor.....RP can dress it any way he wants, no one I think would touch him due to off field problems
Akpo Sodje........out the picture at Charlton.
Jonathan Grounds............reserve footballer at Boro, no first team experience


East Mains the problem......I would say, imagine you are an employer and you see the names above as candidates. Would you, even with limited football knowledge, employ them if you wanted to create a dynamic, winning, and unified team of professionals ?

Think of the salaries and signing on fees that the above have carried and would you rather have someone, acting on behalf of the manager, doing proper scouting, more due diligence with regards on and off field issues, more care is examining their injury records and first team starts.......and would you rather see their salaries being used to entice 4 or 5 players who have played regular first team football, have had no such injury woes, can hit the ground running, want to progress to the next level and have proper experience and leadership skills ? Even paying a transfer fee to get them :dizzy:

If we had proper scouting and manager's and a Board who did proper consultation, then we could have been seeing Jonny Russell, Danny Swanson, David Templeton, Jamie Murphy, Webster, Johnny Hayes, Rooney, Pascali etc at Hibernian.

We also have a board that cannot resist the temptation to sell, as seen in Sol Bamba, Merouane Zemmama, Anthony Stokes, at ludicrous stages of the season. A Board who couldn't act fast and secure Liam Miller, who in all honesty, was a good technical footballer who should have been persuaded to stay.......ask yourselves why the likes of Dundee Utd were able to keep and retain Goodwillie, Daly, Conway, Bauben and Co.......and win a Cup and get to Cup Finals in the process. Yes - they lost out on income with transfers, but they replace well.....Russell, Daly, Dixon, Scott Allan, Kenneth and MacKay-Stevens have seen them continue to perform at this level.

Dundee Utd would kill for our infrastructure......I would love to have their chairman. A real fan, a real 'fitba man' (sorry, had to say it) and someone who isn't afraid to face the fans. We have Rod, who yet again hides behind a statement and who has no real passionate desire to get Hibernian up where it should be (IMO). I watched Geoff Brown's recent BBC interview and he was refeshingly blunt, honest and true to himself and Saints.....but you could see the passion in his eyes for the club. I don't see that with Rod, Scott and Fyfe.....I just see men in suits looking for excuses for their and the team's ineptness.

[calumb]

It's not East Mains that' the problem, it is the players that have been allowed to come in, most of whom have not been playing regular football, many of whom have come to Hibs on the back of serious injuries........the prosecution leads with

Valdas Trakys.......more clubs than Tiger Woods
Michael Hart.......two long term absences at Preston due to injury, had not played regular football over two years there
Kevin McBride.......again, suffered injuries at Falkirk and came to Hibs not even a Falkirk regular
Matt Thornhill.......had never made inroads in the Forest first team and was a reserve footballer
Junior Agogo.........signed due to a 'pals act' IMHO
Victor Palsson.......reserve footballer, had not had any first team action other than loan spell (I think Dagenham ??)
Graham Stack....always a second or third choice keeper, has never established himself as a No1 at any club he has been at
Darryl Duffy.......was out the picture at a poor Bristol Rovers side, suffered injuries previously
Alan Gow........again, started to become the football mercenary, hadn't played any football of note at either Rangers or Norwich
Francis Dickoh.........out the picture at his Dutch club and I believe had attitude their too
Paddy Cregg........the 'old pals act' comes in again......in fairness, came but was never played
Ivan Sproule.......had become a bit part at Bristol, sent on loan and hadn't set the heather on fire at mighty Yeovil
Garry O'Connor.....RP can dress it any way he wants, no one I think would touch him due to off field problems
Akpo Sodje........out the picture at Charlton.
Jonathan Grounds............reserve footballer at Boro, no first team experience


East Mains the problem......I would say, imagine you are an employer and you see the names above as candidates. Would you, even with limited football knowledge, employ them if you wanted to create a dynamic, winning, and unified team of professionals ?

Think of the salaries and signing on fees that the above have carried and would you rather have someone, acting on behalf of the manager, doing proper scouting, more due diligence with regards on and off field issues, more care is examining their injury records and first team starts.......and would you rather see their salaries being used to entice 4 or 5 players who have played regular first team football, have had no such injury woes, can hit the ground running, want to progress to the next level and have proper experience and leadership skills ? Even paying a transfer fee to get them :dizzy:

If we had proper scouting and manager's and a Board who did proper consultation, then we could have been seeing Jonny Russell, Danny Swanson, David Templeton, Jamie Murphy, Webster, Johnny Hayes, Rooney, Pascali etc at Hibernian.

We also have a board that cannot resist the temptation to sell, as seen in Sol Bamba, Merouane Zemmama, Anthony Stokes, at ludicrous stages of the season. A Board who couldn't act fast and secure Liam Miller, who in all honesty, was a good technical footballer who should have been persuaded to stay.......ask yourselves why the likes of Dundee Utd were able to keep and retain Goodwillie, Daly, Conway, Bauben and Co.......and win a Cup and get to Cup Finals in the process. Yes - they lost out on income with transfers, but they replace well.....Russell, Daly, Dixon, Scott Allan, Kenneth and MacKay-Stevens have seen them continue to perform at this level.

Dundee Utd would kill for our infrastructure......I would love to have their chairman. A real fan, a real 'fitba man' (sorry, had to say it) and someone who isn't afraid to face the fans. We have Rod, who yet again hides behind a statement and who has no real passionate desire to get Hibernian up where it should be (IMO). I watched Geoff Brown's recent BBC interview and he was refeshingly blunt, honest and true to himself and Saints.....but you could see the passion in his eyes for the club. I don't see that with Rod, Scott and Fyfe.....I just see men in suits looking for excuses for their and the team's ineptness.


post is spot on, its also pretty depressing. The money the club have wasted in 3 years on the gash listed above must be staggering.
You have to wonder how it can be changed as the guys in suits will be reluctant to get off the half a million a year gravy train just as the players who rave about east mains facilities will be reluctant to put down the pool cues and xbox controllers and do some work.

[cocopops1875]

post is spot on, its also pretty depressing. The money the club have wasted in 3 years on the gash listed above must be staggering.
You have to wonder how it can be changed as the guys in suits will be reluctant to get off the half a million a year gravy train just as the players who rave about east mains facilities will be reluctant to put down the pool cues and xbox controllers and do some work.

Im sure this is a fair reflection of day to day events at east mains :roll eyes: shocked you didn't mention a drinking culture and some betting

[calumb]

Im sure this is a fair reflection of day to day events at east mains :roll eyes: shocked you didn't mention a drinking culture and some betting

:greengrin aye i know, never ever been more depressed about Hibs and the thought of the money thats been wasted didnae help much

[Brizo]

Nae probs. Perhaps someone has definitive figures. I think in general its better to invest as much as possible rather than cut corners - I dont know what the going rate for a training centre is so cant comment if its a lot or not.

I meant that the approximate salaries offered, and lengths of contracts available are broadly similar to our competitors (apart from the obvious exceptions). As for your precise questions, I dont know the answer to any of them, but equally you cant make the claim that it hasnt improved players - we dont know because theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players. But intuitively it makes sense to believe that good conditions, good surfaces, good equipment and good resources are more likely to inprove things than not having them. How these facilities are used is a different matter, and that comes down to management ability. East Mains itself cannot, surely, offer the opportunity to do anything but improve a player if utilised properly

I've been to watch Hartlepool, and I'd suggest it'd take a lot more than few hundred quid extra to get someone down there:wink:

But the point is arguable. It will depend on individuals, where they are in their career, how keen they are to move. I dont think anyone would ever claim that EM is an overarching reason for a player staying or signing, but it must be a factor. along with staying in Edinburgh, salary, proximity to family etc. (It's always struck me as odd that more than most careers, football expects young guys to up sticks and move away from friends and family at the drop of a hat and immediatel ystart performing at the hughest level. Odd). And even if it is not a consideration on that process, its almost a moot point - the aim is surely to make players better. The bricks and mortar wont do that on their own, but can assist if, as I said above, it is used properly.

You can provide no hard evidence either from players personal testimonials or from viewing games as a fan that EM has improved the fitness or technique of players on the pitch. Your argument that "theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players" makes no sense. Of course we can. We can see a player coming to Hibs on day one and see whether their fitness , technique and ability improve over the subsequent months through their daily exposure to all that EM has to offer. With most players theres no discernible improvement from day one and some such as Palsonn seem to go backwards.

As for the "utilised properly" comment I feel you lose your own argument here. A good coach will get more out of players on a public park than a poor coach will get out of them at an EM style facility. First and foremost its the quality of coaching staff and calibre of player available to them , facilities are secondary.

In the absence of any evidence your really are clutching at straws stating you believe "intuitively" that "good resources are more likely to improve things". For a man that deals in hard scientific facts , when it comes to EM you seem to be following some kind of blind faith :wink: that the 5 million EM will be worth that level of investment even although theres no evidence on the pitch to support it.

[Scouse Hibee]

And what calibre of player are we talking about here? Agogo , O'Hanlon , Thornhill?

Gotcha! :greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

You can provide no hard evidence either from players personal testimonials or from viewing games as a fan that EM has improved the fitness or technique of players on the pitch. Your argument that "theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players" makes no sense. Of course we can. We can see a player coming to Hibs on day one and see whether their fitness , technique and ability improve over the subsequent months through their daily exposure to all that EM has to offer. With most players theres no discernible improvement from day one and some such as Palsonn seem to go backwards.

As for the "utilised properly" comment I feel you lose your own argument here. A good coach will get more out of players on a public park than a poor coach will get out of them at an EM style facility. First and foremost its the quality of coaching staff and calibre of player available to them , facilities are secondary.

In the absence of any evidence your really are clutching at straws stating you believe "intuitively" that "good resources are more likely to improve things". For a man that deals in hard scientific facts , when it comes to EM you seem to be following some kind of blind faith :wink: that the 5 million EM will be worth that level of investment even although theres no evidence on the pitch to support it.

Faith? Me? Perish the thought...:greengrin

I agree that coaching ability is of primary importance, but a good coach will do better with better facilities and resources and a poor coach will do worse with poor facilities and resources. At a stratospherically different level of the game, I can attest to this from personal experience. (Again, anecdote doesnt equal evidence, but I'm not aware of any double blinded studies that could illustrate this...:wink:). I can't prove definitive proof of this, but I think the hypothesis "A group of athletes will, given the same access to coaching resource, perform better when training in good conditions and with quality resources if contrasted with training with poor resources and condition" is stronger that "conditions and resources mamke no difference to the training performance of atheltes".

I dont think the individual player monitoring is valid (like Pallson as you mentioned) as it is equally impossible to say how much further he would/could have gone backwards had he not been training at EM.

There's no evidence yet, I agree - I've said elsewhere it needs a period of competent footballing management stability and other factors (such as budget etc) to be fair for it to really show consistent benefit.

[GreenPJ]

You can provide no hard evidence either from players personal testimonials or from viewing games as a fan that EM has improved the fitness or technique of players on the pitch. Your argument that "theres not the ability to compare directly with the same players" makes no sense. Of course we can. We can see a player coming to Hibs on day one and see whether their fitness , technique and ability improve over the subsequent months through their daily exposure to all that EM has to offer. With most players theres no discernible improvement from day one and some such as Palsonn seem to go backwards.

As for the "utilised properly" comment I feel you lose your own argument here. A good coach will get more out of players on a public park than a poor coach will get out of them at an EM style facility. First and foremost its the quality of coaching staff and calibre of player available to them , facilities are secondary.

In the absence of any evidence your really are clutching at straws stating you believe "intuitively" that "good resources are more likely to improve things". For a man that deals in hard scientific facts , when it comes to EM you seem to be following some kind of blind faith :wink: that the 5 million EM will be worth that level of investment even although theres no evidence on the pitch to support it.

So a good coach with good facilities vs a good coach with poor facilities, which would do better.

[Eyrie]

If any one of Collins, Mixu, Hughes or Calderwood had had half a clue about signing decent players would we be having this discussion?

I'd rather have the facilities than have wasted even more money on sub-standard players. Not one of those four managers had a good record for signing the right players so there is no reason to suppose that a bigger budget would have made any difference.

[KeithTheHibby]

Been mentioned already but the infrastructure of the club is essential to the future.

I guess the majority of EM and Easter Road has been paid for through player sales however nothing can be done about that now.


Having our own training centre and fully developed stadium should ensure that the club can go forward...off the park at least.

EM is not the problem, it is players that have been brought in.

Puting aside the amount of managers we seem to go through for the time being - who is responsible for our scouting network?

Watching St J yesterday I seen at least 4 players who would enhance our team easy. Jody Morris, Lee Croft, Sandaza and the other lad up front.
How on earth have these guys ended up playing for St J???
Now it is easy to use those players as an example however you can also look at what Motherwell have achieved along with St Mirren and Inverness to an extent.

Tiny clubs in comparison to us yet manage to out perform us consistently.

The problem is not East Mains, that is for sure.

[dp00]

I'm told that things are majorly changing down east mains, some ppl who used to be able to walk in and out because they were a known face are now being refused access. the place is becoming more professional and the players are spending more time there along with strict rules on when players are required to turn up at.

Hopefully start to see the benefits of the hard work

[BEEJ]

Re para 1 im quoting a previous poster whose figures ive no reason to doubt altho agree 500k does appear high. What i dont think is in doubt is the 5 mill cost. I believe we needed a designated training facility but when JC opened it he was quoted as saying it was EPL standard and as ive previously said i feel thats a level of expenditure which wasnt necessary for our SPL needs. i believe a perfectly acceptable and fit for purpose facility could have been built much cheaper ... altho to prempt your next question i havent costed alternatives :wink:
It's not - £4.9m was the figure quoted in the Board statement at the end of January 2008, a month after it opened.

Confirmed in the 07/08 accounts, as I recall.