Train drivers balloted on strike

[GlesgaeHibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16620288

I can't actually believe this is for real. A train driver called in sick for work and it was found that he was actually in Germany to watch a Rangers game. As a result, he was demoted. The unions now want to ballot drivers on strike action to support the demoted driver here, as he has seen his earnings slashed by nearly £20k due to demotion. The guy should count himself lucky to still even be employed by Scotrail after his skiving antics.

[Darth Hibbie]

An absolute joke. As you say he is lucky to still have a job.

[lyonhibs]

If train drivers collectively have 2 brain cells to rub together, then this ballot will comprehensively get laughed out.

An total farce, and more ammunition for the "Unions are interfering, militant, self-interested bawjaws" camp's argument when any strike action gets called.

[johnbc70]

What a joke - noticed this quote in the article:

"Aslef's Scottish Secretary Kevin Lindsay told BBC Scotland: "This is the first mistake he has made in 21 years. He's paid a very heavy punishment for this and we think this is excessive by ScotRail."

What he really meant was:

"Aslef's Scottish Secretary Kevin Lindsay told BBC Scotland: "This is the first mistake of being caught he has made in 21 years. He's paid a very heavy punishment for this and we think this is excessive by ScotRail.

Although being a hun may have slightly clouded my judgement!

[GlesgaeHibby]

What a joke - noticed this quote in the article:

"Aslef's Scottish Secretary Kevin Lindsay told BBC Scotland: "This is the first mistake he has made in 21 years. He's paid a very heavy punishment for this and we think this is excessive by ScotRail."

What he really meant was:

"Aslef's Scottish Secretary Kevin Lindsay told BBC Scotland: "This is the first mistake of being caught he has made in 21 years. He's paid a very heavy punishment for this and we think this is excessive by ScotRail.

Although being a hun may have slightly clouded my judgement!

Doesn't matter if it's his first mistake, it's gross misconduct and could have easily led to his sacking. He is very lucky to be in a job, and to be taking the action he and the unions are taking beggars belief.

[lucky]

So a union defends a member which it believes has been treated harshly and its open season on unions. It was because scotrail broke agreements and withdrew the sanctioning of lieu days. The guys made a mistake and dose not deserve to be fined £360000

[Speedy]

So a union defends a member which it believes has been treated harshly and its open season on unions. It was because scotrail broke agreements and withdrew the sanctioning of lieu days. The guys made a mistake and dose not deserve to be fined £360000

Complete rubbish imo.

For starters, he wasn't fined £360,000. I assume you are calculating this figure as £20k per year for the rest of his working life but that logic is flawed because there is nothing to stop him being reinstated if he proves he has the required competencies (and is reliable enough) to do the job.

Also, you seem to imply that it was the employers fault for not giving the guy the days off he wanted which is also wrong. You can't just take the huff and lie that you aren't feeling well to get a day off so you can go to a football match.

[lucky]

Complete rubbish imo.

For starters, he wasn't fined £360,000. I assume you are calculating this figure as £20k per year for the rest of his working life but that logic is flawed because there is nothing to stop him being reinstated if he proves he has the required competencies (and is reliable enough) to do the job.

Also, you seem to imply that it was the employers fault for not giving the guy the days off he wanted which is also wrong. You can't just take the huff and lie that you aren't feeling well to get a day off so you can go to a football match.

Scotrail refused all leave for drivers breaking a long standing agreement. Whilst he is not being fined he will lose at least £360k over his career. The boys made a mistake, who hasn't. The punishment is hard and excessive. It's time for unions to stand up for its members

[Saorsa]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16620288

I can't actually believe this is for real. A train driver called in sick for work and it was found that he was actually in Germany to watch a Rangers game. As a result, he was demoted. The unions now want to ballot drivers on strike action to support the demoted driver here, as he has seen his earnings slashed by nearly £20k due to demotion. The guy should count himself lucky to still even be employed by Scotrail after his skiving antics.

An absolute joke. As you say he is lucky to still have a job.


If train drivers collectively have 2 brain cells to rub together, then this ballot will comprehensively get laughed out.

An total farce, and more ammunition for the "Unions are interfering, militant, self-interested bawjaws" camp's argument when any strike action gets called.


Doesn't matter if it's his first mistake, it's gross misconduct and could have easily led to his sacking. He is very lucky to be in a job, and to be taking the action he and the unions are taking beggars belief.


Complete rubbish imo.

For starters, he wasn't fined £360,000. I assume you are calculating this figure as £20k per year for the rest of his working life but that logic is flawed because there is nothing to stop him being reinstated if he proves he has the required competencies (and is reliable enough) to do the job.

Also, you seem to imply that it was the employers fault for not giving the guy the days off he wanted which is also wrong. You can't just take the huff and lie that you aren't feeling well to get a day off so you can go to a football match.Absolutely ludicrous decision, agree with all of the above, he's lucky still tae have a job.

If there was any sort of legally binding agreement or any T&C's of employment that were being breeched by not allowing lieu days then why was there not a strike ballot on that? Having a ballot for strike action because somebody skived off and got caught is ridiculous and it makes them look silly IMO.

[Speedy]

Scotrail refused all leave for drivers breaking a long standing agreement. Whilst he is not being fined he will lose at least £360k over his career. The boys made a mistake, who hasn't. The punishment is hard and excessive. It's time for unions to stand up for its members

Not necessarily true, that's up to him.

I agree it's hard but I'm not sure it's excessive. He directly deals with customers and he clearly showed he doesn't care about them which gives a bad impression of the company.

Would it be excessive if Christopher Samba, or Carlos Tevez, were demoted due to their actions?

[Beefster]

Scotrail refused all leave for drivers breaking a long standing agreement. Whilst he is not being fined he will lose at least £360k over his career. The boys made a mistake, who hasn't. The punishment is hard and excessive. It's time for unions to stand up for its members

Most employers would sack their employee for gross misconduct for doing the same thing. The punishment certainly isn't excessive.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Should be sacked imho. No defence whatsoever that I can see.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I'm really surprised people are willing to give up a days pay to support him. I wouldn't.

Train/tube companies strike all the time and it really pisses me off. They provide a poor, overpriced, late and generally substandard service. The sooner they are all replaced with computers the better.

[lucky]

Absolutely ludicrous decision, agree with all of the above, he's lucky still tae have a job.

If there was any sort of legally binding agreement or any T&C's of employment that were being breeched by not allowing lieu days then why was there not a strike ballot on that? Having a ballot for strike action because somebody skived off and got caught is ridiculous and it makes them look silly IMO.

There was a dispute going on at that time. ASLEF and scotrail did not have an agreement on rest day working. Scotrail then ripped up nearly all agreements. As such the drivers were working to rule. Scotrail eventually agreed to employ another 38 drivers and give more drivers lieu leave when they applied for. Unfortunately for this guy he got caught up in the dispute and scotrail were out for some revenge. Industrial relations in the railway have deteriorated this year and drivers are sick off the bully boy tactics of management and as such are willing to fight scotrail on any issue. There is a belief that scotrail will continue to sack/demoted drivers for any offence. So it is that in mind that the drivers have demanded action.

[lucky]

I'm really surprised people are willing to give up a days pay to support him. I wouldn't.

Train/tube companies strike all the time and it really pisses me off. They provide a poor, overpriced, late and generally substandard service. The sooner they are all replaced with computers the better.

Then you would be a scab and not survive in the heavily unionised railway.

[Pete]

This is a difficult one because if there are other factors involved, such as employers being excessively strict to downgrade or sack people to save money, then a clear condemnation of the unions can't be automatic. I have experience of this type of behavior recently in banks who were told to get rid of staff and save money and sneaky tactics were used until the unions stepped in. Also, a £20000 a year pay cut is a hell of a hit to take for anyone.

However, people seem to be missing the most important point in this case. The guy is a dirty, stinking hun and deserves no sympathy. I would sack him.

Dispute over.:greengrin

[Saorsa]

There was a dispute going on at that time. ASLEF and scotrail did not have an agreement on rest day working. Scotrail then ripped up nearly all agreements. As such the drivers were working to rule. Scotrail eventually agreed to employ another 38 drivers and give more drivers lieu leave when they applied for. Unfortunately for this guy he got caught up in the dispute and scotrail were out for some revenge. Industrial relations in the railway have deteriorated this year and drivers are sick off the bully boy tactics of management and as such are willing to fight scotrail on any issue. There is a belief that scotrail will continue to sack/demoted drivers for any offence. So it is that in mind that the drivers have demanded action.I have nae problem with working tae rule or with industrial action for the other reasons mentioned but this guy was simply wrong and going on strike in support of him will win little support IMO. He's lucky still tae have a job at all, in many other places he would probably have been emptied and IMO could have nae complaint. This wasn't an accident and it certainly wisnae a mistake, it was a deliberate act, he lied, he took time off tae go on a trip, he took a risk, he got caught, he's paying the price.

[Dashing Bob S]

This is a difficult one because if there are other factors involved, such as employers being excessively strict to downgrade or sack people to save money, then a clear condemnation of the unions can't be automatic. I have experience of this type of behavior recently in banks who were told to get rid of staff and save money and sneaky tactics were used until the unions stepped in. Also, a £20000 a year pay cut is a hell of a hit to take for anyone.

However, people seem to be missing the most important point in this case. The guy is a dirty, stinking hun and deserves no sympathy. I would sack him.

Dispute over.:greengrin

Seconded. I'd tie him to the tracks and run him over with a 125.

[HiBremian]

Seconded. I'd tie him to the tracks and run him over with a 125.

Hey DBS, you've been watching far too much Jeremy Clarkson.:)-

[RyeSloan]

There was a dispute going on at that time. ASLEF and scotrail did not have an agreement on rest day working. Scotrail then ripped up nearly all agreements. As such the drivers were working to rule. Scotrail eventually agreed to employ another 38 drivers and give more drivers lieu leave when they applied for. Unfortunately for this guy he got caught up in the dispute and scotrail were out for some revenge. Industrial relations in the railway have deteriorated this year and drivers are sick off the bully boy tactics of management and as such are willing to fight scotrail on any issue. There is a belief that scotrail will continue to sack/demoted drivers for any offence. So it is that in mind that the drivers have demanded action.


Then you would be a scab and not survive in the heavily unionised railway.

And this is exactly why a lot of people are more than happy to work in non unionised workplaces.

"Bully boy management"

"Scab"

"Fight on any issue"


Thanks god I don't have to bow to ASLEF's view of how the world should be.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Then you would be a scab and not survive in the heavily unionised railway.

Those who strike have to respect the right of those who don't. It works, or at least should work, both ways. Calling people 'scabs' because they won't sign up to something they don't agree with, especially if they lose a days pay, is narrow minded and childish.

[Jack]

With 21 years’ experience you'd have thought he'd have known better, particularly at a time of on-going dispute.

As for the union, and I’ve been a union man for almost 40 years, I sometimes think they pick the wrong fight or deal with things incorrectly, and this is a case in hand.

[lucky]

It is the ordinary drivers who wanted this dispute. It was 8 out 15 branches of the union who called for action. The leadership are doing as they were asked. Ultimately the drivers will decide unless a settlement can be reached.

[Speedy]

It is the ordinary drivers who wanted this dispute. It was 8 out 15 branches of the union who called for action. The leadership are doing as they were asked. Ultimately the drivers will decide unless a settlement can be reached.

I'm guessing you are a lot closer to this than many of us but from an outsiders point of view it looks like a guy has lied and refused to turn up for work and his colleagues are reacting to his punishment by (at least exploring the possibility of) refusing to turn up for work.

I genuinely don't see how you can support that.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Surely if Scotrail can produce the guys fraudulent self cert form it would be game over for him with regard to an appeal and he may well end up jobless.

[Hermit Crab]

I'm guessing you are a lot closer to this than many of us but from an outsiders point of view it looks like a guy has lied and refused to turn up for work and his colleagues are reacting to his punishment by (at least exploring the possibility of) refusing to turn up for work.

I genuinely don't see how you can support that.


No disrespect intended but that is exactly what you are and you don't know how the unions work in the railway or indeed how the railway works. Tip - Don't believe everything you read in the sun or the record or what you hear on the news as the local rags like to dramatise things greatly to make it look like the staff are greedy and ungrateful towards its employer which is certainly not the case. I will support any the union as there's no point in being in one if they don't do anything about situations like this. That's why these guys pay their union subs every month.

[Hermit Crab]

What a joke - noticed this quote in the article:

"Aslef's Scottish Secretary Kevin Lindsay told BBC Scotland: "This is the first mistake he has made in 21 years. He's paid a very heavy punishment for this and we think this is excessive by ScotRail."

What he really meant was:

"Aslef's Scottish Secretary Kevin Lindsay told BBC Scotland: "This is the first mistake of being caught he has made in 21 years. He's paid a very heavy punishment for this and we think this is excessive by ScotRail.

Although being a hun may have slightly clouded my judgement!


Serious accusation mate. Where's your evidence?

[lucky]

Surely if Scotrail can produce the guys fraudulent self cert form it would be game over for him with regard to an appeal and he may well end up jobless.

The guy never filled one in and has not been paid. As I said earlier there's more to it. But the press are just kicking at the union. Think it through 8 out of 15 union branches wanted this action. It has been led by the drivers. They always stick together thats why they have good T&Cs. Yes the guy's has made a big mistake. But how many on here have called in sick when they could have gone to work?

[GlesgaeHibby]

The guy never filled one in and has not been paid. As I said earlier there's more to it. But the press are just kicking at the union. Think it through 8 out of 15 union branches wanted this action. It has been led by the drivers. They always stick together thats why they have good T&Cs. Yes the guy's has made a big mistake. But how many on here have called in sick when they could have gone to work?

I'm sure plenty have, but to put yourself in a situation where you can easily get caught out (as this guy has done) is just lunacy. At the end of the day, the guy has made a false statement about his absence claiming he was off sick when he wasn't. Scotrail have evidence he wasn't sick, and was at a football game. It's gross misconduct, end of story and he's very lucky to still have a job at all.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

The guy never filled one in and has not been paid. As I said earlier there's more to it. But the press are just kicking at the union. Think it through 8 out of 15 union branches wanted this action. It has been led by the drivers. They always stick together thats why they have good T&Cs. Yes the guy's has made a big mistake. But how many on here have called in sick when they could have gone to work?

Fair point, I suspect probably most of us. But how many of us would expect our colleagues to strike over it? I suspect not many. I'm sure there is more to it but the facts that we have are pretty black and white. Asking others to strike and causing disruption to the public over this is crazy.

It a bit off the subject but do the good T&C that Scot Rail offer not include a fairly healthy holiday allowance. It would be interesting to know whether the guy just didn't want to take a holiday, or if he had none left.

[Speedy]

Serious accusation mate. Where's your evidence?

It's not really an accusation though, it's a factual statement.


The guy never filled one in and has not been paid. As I said earlier there's more to it. But the press are just kicking at the union. Think it through 8 out of 15 union branches wanted this action. It has been led by the drivers. They always stick together thats why they have good T&Cs. Yes the guy's has made a big mistake. But how many on here have called in sick when they could have gone to work?

They always stick together and yet 7 out of 15 union branches didn't support the strike...

[Beefster]

The guy never filled one in and has not been paid. As I said earlier there's more to it. But the press are just kicking at the union. Think it through 8 out of 15 union branches wanted this action. It has been led by the drivers. They always stick together thats why they have good T&Cs. Yes the guy's has made a big mistake. But how many on here have called in sick when they could have gone to work?

Probably a fair number but it's one thing to take a day off when you're feeling a bit grotty and spending the day in your undercrackers watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy. It's another to take a sickie, when you feel tip top, so you can head over to the continent for a football game.

I wouldn't describe it as a mistake either. It's not like he accidentally lied to his employer.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The guy never filled one in and has not been paid.
So he has effectively been AWOL whilst heading over to Germany on a jolly. Possibility of trains being cancelled if the drivers go on strike. FFS!

[ballengeich]

For those of you who're defending him,

would you be doing the same if a Hibs player who'd stayed away from training claiming to be unwell had subsequently been proved to have gone to support Rangers later that day?

[Jack]

The guy never filled one in and has not been paid. As I said earlier there's more to it. But the press are just kicking at the union. Think it through 8 out of 15 union branches wanted this action. It has been led by the drivers. They always stick together thats why they have good T&Cs. Yes the guy's has made a big mistake. But how many on here have called in sick when they could have gone to work?

So tell us, what is the more to it?

[RyeSloan]

The guy never filled one in and has not been paid. As I said earlier there's more to it. But the press are just kicking at the union. Think it through 8 out of 15 union branches wanted this action. It has been led by the drivers. They always stick together thats why they have good T&Cs. Yes the guy's has made a big mistake. But how many on here have called in sick when they could have gone to work?

So technically he never took a sickie cause he didn't complete a self cert. So what you are saying is that he therefore took unpaid leave...which in any company I have ever worked for is required to be agreed in advance. Seems pretty clear that this wasn't agreed in advance so will have contravened his terms of employment. That contravention will have been dealt with through a disciplinary process I assume (probably even with a union rep present) at the end of which the company has decided on it's course of action. That action was demotion which I would suppose is within the terms of employment and the company disciplinary rules.....

So the question is, what if any of the above is inaccurate and if none of it is what is the justification for striking?

[Hermit Crab]

It's not really an accusation though, it's a factual statement.



They always stick together and yet 7 out of 15 union branches didn't support the strike...


How is it fact? Does the OP know hes done it before and never been caught like?:confused:

[Hermit Crab]

It's not really an accusation though, it's a factual statement.



They always stick together and yet 7 out of 15 union branches didn't support the strike...

In this case it looks like the majority has spoken and the rest will follow if ballot papers are issued.

[Hermit Crab]

For those of you who're defending him,

would you be doing the same if a Hibs player who'd stayed away from training claiming to be unwell had subsequently been proved to have gone to support Rangers later that day?


Hardly a realistic comparison is it?

[lucky]

I'm hearing the RMT are going ballot their members over excessive discipline. Seems there are troubles in Scotrail

[BEEJ]

I'm hearing the RMT are going ballot their members over excessive discipline. Seems there are troubles in Scotrail
Presumably the boy should just have been given a finger-wagging verbal warning and "we'll hear no more of it, laddie" type lecture? :greengrin

Any employer I've worked for would not have tolerated this kind of behaviour. The guy should be relieved that he still has a job after these antics. But no, let's have a national strike and bring the country to a virtual standstill to support his cause.

What qualifies as 'excessive discipline' these days is actually just common sense management when it comes down to it. The only victims here will be the customers on the day of the strike.

The unions should keep their powder dry for more worthwhile causes than this one.

[Scouse Hibee]

He should be taken to a train platform and shot in front of waiting commuters.

[johnbc70]

Serious accusation mate. Where's your evidence?

Evidence is that he has been caught, which we know as it is in the paper. I am sure if he has history of previous he would have been sacked so OK I am assuming this is the first time he has done this. So still factually correct that this is the first time he has been caught in 21 years?

[Scouse Hibee]

Evidence is that he has been caught, which we know as it is in the paper. I am sure if he has history of previous he would have been sacked so OK I am assuming this is the first time he has done this. So still factually correct that this is the first time he has been caught in 21 years?


:whistle:

[lucky]

Heard the drivers strike is off after deal was reached but now appears Scotrail have another dispute over excessive discipline. What a way to run the railways.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=154933

[Beefster]

Heard the drivers strike is off after deal was reached but now appears Scotrail have another dispute over excessive discipline. What a way to run the railways.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=154933

ScotRail are saying that their investigation revealed a different version of events.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hYAuW8wvyCmGQXHyPl3cwswHMaPg?docId=N02423413 28015071083A

PS I didn't think that unions spoke like this any longer - "The British Transport Police brought no charges against Brother Brander and Sister McLean"

[lucky]

The language used by the unions is irrelevant. Its got to be more of a concern that an employer is facing its second ballot in two weeks over excessive discipline. I'm also hearing Unite have had 3 members dismissed and they are consulting on taking action. It appears First Scotrail are flexing their muscles to the detriment of its employees. A bullying management will only bring trouble. The railways are the most unionized industry left in the UK. Is this First or is it the Cameron looking to take the unions on like Thatcher?

[Beefster]

The language used by the unions is irrelevant. Its got to be more of a concern that an employer is facing its second ballot in two weeks over excessive discipline. I'm also hearing Unite have had 3 members dismissed and they are consulting on taking action. It appears First Scotrail are flexing their muscles to the detriment of its employees. A bullying management will only bring trouble. The railways are the most unionized industry left in the UK. Is this First or is it the Cameron looking to take the unions on like Thatcher?

Scottish railways are devolved so I presume you mean Salmond rather than Cameron.

[maturehibby]

If train drivers collectively have 2 brain cells to rub together, then this ballot will comprehensively get laughed out.

An total farce, and more ammunition for the "Unions are interfering, militant, self-interested bawjaws" camp's argument when any strike action gets called.

For information I know for a fact that there are at least 20 Drivers that are Season ticket holders here and the same amount of other grades .
Hermit crab talks the right talk and like him I know first hand about Scotrails industrial tactics so dont believe all you read in the Tabloids .
Finally do you know that Kevin Lindsay the ASLEF rep is and has been for many years a Season ticket holder at Easter rd 2 brain cells or not

[Phil D. Rolls]

He should be taken to a train platform and shot in front of waiting commuters.

:agree: With an amusing commentary by Richard Hammond.

[Hermit Crab]

Those who strike have to respect the right of those who don't. It works, or at least should work, both ways. Calling people 'scabs' because they won't sign up to something they don't agree with, especially if they lose a days pay, is narrow minded and childish.


Tell that one to the miners mate. :rolleyes:

[Lucius Apuleius]

Tell that one to the miners mate. :rolleyes:

You remember '84?

[Beefster]

Tell that one to the miners mate. :rolleyes:

The way working men were treated during the miner's strike was a shocker. There was a guy up the road from me when I was a kid who, because he went to work, used to get his windows put in on almost a weekly basis, graffiti sprayed all over the place, was beat up a few times and threatened even more. All for wanting to take care of his family.

[Killiehibbie]

The way working men were treated during the miner's strike was a shocker. There was a guy up the road from me when I was a kid who, because he went to work, used to get his windows put in on almost a weekly basis, graffiti sprayed all over the place, was beat up a few times and threatened even more. All for wanting to take care of his family.Maybe if he'd went on strike there would still be a mining industry.

[speedy_gonzales]

Maybe if he'd went on strike there would still be a minig industry.
My family(mothers side) are all from Mayfield so can remember the strike. Back then I never understood the why's and wherefore's but witnessed first hand how hard it was on family's and neighbours. I remember some VERY heated discussions between those who wanted to work/earn and those who stood firm by the union. I've still got Uncles that won't speak to each other over it. However, knowing what we know now, no amount of solidarity amongst brothers would have changed the outcome. Those in charge had made their minds up long before that British Coal was no longer economically viable and identified pits would be closed, regardless. The tories were always going to go toe to toe with the union, they waited until they had settled in power long enough and had a plentiful reserve of coal so a strike wouldn't bring the country to it's knees.
I sometimes wonder if the agitation was really about the coal/miners/strike and not about the unions. We know the conservatives REALLY did not like unions and with the various reforms and strike legislation this came through loud and clear. Couple that with the fact that some pits that were closed for being 'no longer economically viable' whilst being ran under a subsidy, are now back up running, at a profit, without a subsidy?!?!

[Beefster]

Maybe if he'd went on strike there would still be a minig industry.

Aye, it was the miners who refused to strike that killed the mining industry.

[RyeSloan]

My family(mothers side) are all from Mayfield so can remember the strike. Back then I never understood the why's and wherefore's but witnessed first hand how hard it was on family's and neighbours. I remember some VERY heated discussions between those who wanted to work/earn and those who stood firm by the union. I've still got Uncles that won't speak to each other over it. However, knowing what we know now, no amount of solidarity amongst brothers would have changed the outcome. Those in charge had made their minds up long before that British Coal was no longer economically viable and identified pits would be closed, regardless. The tories were always going to go toe to toe with the union, they waited until they had settled in power long enough and had a plentiful reserve of coal so a strike wouldn't bring the country to it's knees.
I sometimes wonder if the agitation was really about the coal/miners/strike and not about the unions. We know the conservatives REALLY did not like unions and with the various reforms and strike legislation this came through loud and clear. Couple that with the fact that some pits that were closed for being 'no longer economically viable' whilst being ran under a subsidy, are now back up running, at a profit, without a subsidy?!?!

How many pits does this actually cover? Probably not many and I reckon that if they are now re-opened and running at a profit they are doing so with substantially less numbers and much improved technology.

You are right though the state had decided to take on the unions and this was the battle ground they had chosen. Maybe government had decided that they should govern the country and not the unions?

[Jack]

Another interesting thing between those days and this.

In the run up to the miners’ strike Thatcher increased police numbers and gave them healthy wage increases.

In the run up to the unrest we are seeing now, not just the public sector but the riot stuff, police numbers and take home pays are being cut.

[Killiehibbie]

Aye, it was the miners who refused to strike that killed the mining industry.The government had already decided to get rid of them. Who knows what the result might've been if they had played it differently?