Syria

[Ross4356]

I was wondering why the west is not supporting the rebels in Syria like it did with Libya. Is it to do with Israel's security or maybe cause they don't have any oil or something else?

[HibeeSince85]

This thread could be fun! For me it's anyone of these:

Money
Oil
The whole of the Middle East going radge!

Anybody remember when we weren't always in some form of war/conflict?

[ballengeich]

It's mainly to do with the attitude of other Arab governments. They regarded Gaddafi as a dangerous lunatic who was a potential threat to them so voted in the UN for action against him. While Assad will give support to people taking action against Israel his interference in other Arab countries has only extended to Lebanon so other Middle East dictatorships have been unconcerned about his oppression of his own citizens.

It remains to be seen whether reports from the current Arab League observers in Syria will lead to a willingness for international action. Initially there would not have been Arab support for UN approved action and both Russia and China would have used a veto. There are indications that the Arab League position may be changing.

[ChooseLife]

We're gonna take over Syria next, not stopping till we get them all, thank god we're on the bad side!

[Lucius Apuleius]

This thread could be fun! For me it's anyone of these:

Money
Oil
The whole of the Middle East going radge!

Anybody remember when we weren't always in some form of war/conflict?

Not in my life time.

[Leicester Fan]

We can't win. If we let them get on with it people say 'why aren't we doing anything?'. If we get involved people complain 'we're just after their oil/it's none of our business/what about Israel?'.

That said it'll be interesting to hear Hezbollah sympathisers explain their part in the oppression.

[Hibrandenburg]

We can't win. If we let them get on with it people say 'why aren't we doing anything?'. If we get involved people complain 'we're just after their oil/it's none of our business/what about Israel?'.

That said it'll be interesting to hear Hezbollah sympathisers explain their part in the oppression.
Considering our armed forces are just hoodies in uniform, it would be ill advised to send them to anyones aid.

[steakbake]

Not in my life time.

One year, I think. In all the years after WW2 there's been only one year when the UK wasn't actively involved overseas.

[Sumner]

.. I was wondering why anyone gives one F
about things over there, nevermind money..

[Lucius Apuleius]

One year, I think. In all the years after WW2 there's been only one year when the UK wasn't actively involved overseas.

Possible mate, cannae recall it though :greengrin

[ginger_rice]

One year, I think. In all the years after WW2 there's been only one year when the UK wasn't actively involved overseas.

1968 is the only year that no UK servicemen have been killed

[ginger_rice]

Considering our armed forces are just hoodies in uniform, it would be ill advised to send them to anyones aid.

And you base that opinion on what exactly?

As an ex-servicemen I find that statement quite offensive to be truthful, I've never worn a hoodie in my life!!

[Hibrandenburg]

I base that statement on the opinions of a few on here who make sweeping statements about the military. Pisses me off no end. If some of the statements made on here about soldiers were directed at other groups, then there would be hell to pay. But it would seem that it's open season on the military.

[ginger_rice]

I base that statement on the opinions of a few on here who make sweeping statements about the military. Pisses me off no end. If some of the statements made on here about soldiers were directed at other groups, then there would be hell to pay. But it would seem that it's open season on the military.

Ah! Sorry I didn't pick up on the irony in your previous post....I totally agree with your post above BTW.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ah! Sorry I didn't pick up on the irony in your previous post....I totally agree with your post above BTW.

No probs mate. Can't post smilies using my android.

[Betty Boop]

Russia and China veto UN resolution endorsing Arab League plan for Syria.

[heretoday]

Syria are harder than Libya or Iraq. It wouldn't be like shooting fish in a barrel.

[steakbake]

Syria are harder than Libya or Iraq. It wouldn't be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Yeah, Iraq was easy.

I reckon nothing is going to happen in Syria until Putin decides otherwise.

[ancienthibby]

In all of this turmoil, is there not a UN definition of what is a 'civil war'

If it's not the government in residence killing and brutalising its own people, then what else is???

[Betty Boop]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30456.htm

[hibsbollah]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30456.htm

I'd suggest the facts from Homs are fairly demonstrable. The BBC journalist whose name escapes me is in Homs and is reporting on the artillery barrage and filming the carnage unfolding. The AI press release below makes it clear what the UK govts response should be; an arms embargo, an assets freeze and a referral of the Syrian leaders to the International Criminal Court.

ICH seems to muddy the waters here, when the facts on the ground are actually quite clear. I hope were not seeing more evidence of a 'Israel is bad, Israel's enemy is Hezbollah, Hezbollah is funded by Syria, ergo Syria can't be the bad guys' kind of screwed-up false logic that gives the left a bad name.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/double-veto-draft-security-council-resolution-syria-betrayal-protesters-201

[Betty Boop]

I'd suggest the facts from Homs are fairly demonstrable. The BBC journalist whose name escapes me is in Homs and is reporting on the artillery barrage and filming the carnage unfolding. The AI press release below makes it clear what the UK govts response should be; an arms embargo, an assets freeze and a referral of the Syrian leaders to the International Criminal Court.

ICH seems to muddy the waters here, when the facts on the ground are actually quite clear. I hope were not seeing more evidence of a 'Israel is bad, Israel's enemy is Hezbollah, Hezbollah is funded by Syria, ergo Syria can't be the bad guys' kind of screwed-up false logic that gives the left a bad name.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/double-veto-draft-security-council-resolution-syria-betrayal-protesters-201


I think the situation is far more complicated than we are led to believe in the mainstream media. The Arab League's Observer Mission report makes interesting reading, unsurprisingly it has had little coverage here.

http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf


Also Robert Fisk's article is a more balanced view of events IMO.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-from-washington-this-looks-like-syrias-benghazi-moment-but-not-from-here-6612093.html#cb=f14376afd15ffca&origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Ff11517 813f357b3&relation=parent.parent&transport=postmessage&type=resize&width=0&height=0

[steakbake]

I think the situation is far more complicated than we are led to believe in the mainstream media. The Arab League's Observer Mission report makes interesting reading, unsurprisingly it has had little coverage here.

http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf


Also Robert Fisk's article is a more balanced view of events IMO.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-from-washington-this-looks-like-syrias-benghazi-moment-but-not-from-here-6612093.html#cb=f14376afd15ffca&origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Ff11517 813f357b3&relation=parent.parent&transport=postmessage&type=resize&width=0&height=0

Ahhhhh Robert Fisk!

[hibsbollah]

I think the situation is far more complicated than we are led to believe in the mainstream media. The Arab League's Observer Mission report makes interesting reading, unsurprisingly it has had little coverage here.

http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf


Also Robert Fisk's article is a more balanced view of events IMO.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-from-washington-this-looks-like-syrias-benghazi-moment-but-not-from-here-6612093.html#cb=f14376afd15ffca&origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Ff11517 813f357b3&relation=parent.parent&transport=postmessage&type=resize&width=0&height=0


Robert Fisk should always be taken seriously. He knows his stuff. But that report is about diplomacy, not about the murder on the streets which is the main issue, and which is wrong for anybody to try to deny.

[khib70]

I'd suggest the facts from Homs are fairly demonstrable. The BBC journalist whose name escapes me is in Homs and is reporting on the artillery barrage and filming the carnage unfolding. The AI press release below makes it clear what the UK govts response should be; an arms embargo, an assets freeze and a referral of the Syrian leaders to the International Criminal Court.

ICH seems to muddy the waters here, when the facts on the ground are actually quite clear. I hope were not seeing more evidence of a 'Israel is bad, Israel's enemy is Hezbollah, Hezbollah is funded by Syria, ergo Syria can't be the bad guys' kind of screwed-up false logic that gives the left a bad name.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/double-veto-draft-security-council-resolution-syria-betrayal-protesters-201
:agree:Right on the money, HB. There can be no denying what is happening, and who is responsible. And your proposed solutions are also bang on. Plus of course diplomatic pressure on Russia and China to drop their ridiculous head-in-the-sand denial.

I also agree about the false logic, but I'm not surprised that ICH takes the line it does, since they are among the foremost to display this attitude, which has indeed made the left look hypocritical.

It may suit some people to actually believe the nonsense about tires being set on fire to simulate an artillery barrage, but most people can see from the BBC reports you mention that this is not burning tires.It may suit some people also to ignore Hizbollah's (and Iran's) role in these atrocities, but the evidence is pretty damning.

Even George Galloway :rolleyes:seems to have retreated from his previous fawning position toward Assad. Not that what he thinks matters a damn to anyone that gives a damn:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Oh what a surprise, British and Qatari special forces on the ground in Syria.

http://www.debka.com/article/21718/

[khib70]

Oh what a surprise, British and Qatari special forces on the ground in Syria.

http://www.debka.com/article/21718/
Even if this is true, your own link suggests they're actually not there in a combat role.

And they're not the only visitors in Syria either

http://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/19237/hezbollah-lost-many-fighters-in-syria

Presumably your concerns about outside interference apply to them as well?

And then, of course, there's these guys

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46235702/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/russia-vows-carry-selling-arms-syrias-brutal-dictatorial-regime/

Certainly neither of these interventions appear to bother the Information Clearing House

[AndyP]

One year, I think. In all the years after WW2 there's been only one year when the UK wasn't actively involved overseas.


Assistance to the Mauritian Government in 1968, so even if you exclude the Cold War deployments, there has not been a year since 1945 when the British Military were not involved in an Operation somewhere in the world.


Just because nobody got killed doesn't mean we were sitting in the NAAFI supping ale you know ;)

[steakbake]

Assistance to the Mauritian Government in 1968, so even if you exclude the Cold War deployments, there has not been a year since 1945 when the British Military were not involved in an Operation somewhere in the world.


Just because nobody got killed doesn't mean we were sitting in the NAAFI supping ale you know ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob1rYlCpOnM

From about 1.50 onwards...

[Betty Boop]

Even if this is true, your own link suggests they're actually not there in a combat role.

And they're not the only visitors in Syria either

http://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/19237/hezbollah-lost-many-fighters-in-syria

Presumably your concerns about outside interference apply to them as well?

And then, of course, there's these guys

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46235702/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/russia-vows-carry-selling-arms-syrias-brutal-dictatorial-regime/

Certainly neither of these interventions appear to bother the Information Clearing House

Erm, we can hardly take the moral highground over arming odious regimes, Saudi Arabia who are having their own troubles, having shot two protestors yesterday at an 'illegal gathering, and who weren't slow in entering Bahrain to help with the crack down on dissent. The scenario in Syria is just a rehash of what happened in the lead up to our intervention in Libya, however I think any outside intervention will be disastrous for the region. Just my opinion Kh ! :greengrin

[Hibs Class]

Two western journalists killed today, including Marie Covin who writes for the Sunday Times and whose work I've always found excellent.

[hibsbollah]

I think the situation is far more complicated than we are led to believe in the mainstream media. The Arab League's Observer Mission report makes interesting reading, unsurprisingly it has had little coverage here.

http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf


Also Robert Fisk's article is a more balanced view of events IMO.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-from-washington-this-looks-like-syrias-benghazi-moment-but-not-from-here-6612093.html#cb=f14376afd15ffca&origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Ff11517 813f357b3&relation=parent.parent&transport=postmessage&type=resize&width=0&height=0

I hope you are following some of the Homs artillery barrage coverage on the BBC and the Marie Colvin news. The Syrian regime has now been shelling civilian areas for 2 weeks continuously. Do you still think 'the situation' is anything else but crystal clear?

[khib70]

I hope you are following some of the Homs artillery barrage coverage on the BBC and the Marie Colvin news. The Syrian regime has now been shelling civilian areas for 2 weeks continuously. Do you still think 'the situation' is anything else but crystal clear?
Well said. It's time for those who have been ominously silent or have attempted rationalisation to face the facts. And they are indisputable. There is a debate to be had about what should be done but absolutely none about what is happening.

And as for the Arab League mission. It was led by General Muhammad Ahmad Mustafa Al-Dabi - a close associate of the Sudanese President who is currently wanted for war crimes at the Hague. I'd rather believe even CNN than him

[Hibrandenburg]

Oh what a surprise, British and Qatari special forces on the ground in Syria.

http://www.debka.com/article/21718/

Yep, they must be out there bayonetting babies and carrying out rape and pillage activities. I suspect a lot of the information getting out to the world is coming from them and I wouldn't trust a word of what the Arab League observers claim to be going on.

What would be your suggestion as to how we find out what is really going on on the ground?

[khib70]

Yep, they must be out there bayonetting babies and carrying out rape and pillage activities. I suspect a lot of the information getting out to the world is coming from them and I wouldn't trust a word of what the Arab League observers claim to be going on.

What would be your suggestion as to how we find out what is really going on on the ground?
We find out through the courage and dedication of war reporters like Marie Colvin and Remi Ochlik, which is why the Syrian regime has deliberately murdered them.

Some, though not all, of those on the Left who are never short of outrage about the actions of Israel or the US, are in total denial about these events, scraping together bits of disinformation from partisan blogs to suggest that the atrocities are a) not happening or b) are the consequence of some massive Sunni conspiracy lead by Al Qaeda.

Its embarrassing for them that their poster boys in Hamas and Hizbollah are enthusiastically assisting with the carnage. So far, no protest marches, no boycott calls, no sitdowns outside the Syrian embassy, and no Syrian string quartets being heckled by Mick Napier and his cronies. The Palestine Solidarity Campaign's website is surprisingly Syria-free, but is headlining a vigil outside the Israeli embassy over a single Palestinian prisoner on hunger strike.

I remember the twenty page thread we had on here when some fool of an IDF conscript lobbed a tear gas grenade at a journalist - I wonder how many pages of outrage we'll get over the deliberate targetting of a media centre with heavy artillery, killing two respected war correspondents and seriously injuring two others?

The deniers of this particular mass slaughter should have a read at what Human Rights Watch (who they always quote when having a go at Israel) have to say about Syria. And (shock horror!!) the UN Human Rights Committee doesn't appear to be saying anything at all.

As for what is to be done, we cannot sit on our hands again. Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan are monuments to UN and government failure to protect the innocent. We have to act positively as a world community to support the rebels and remove the Syrian regime. This can be done by military or diplomatic means, or a combination of the two, but doing nothing - again - is not an option.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2012/02/arab-world-syria-essay-iran

Johnathan Powell talks sense here. (although as Blairs chief of staff some may be prejudiced against anything he has to say)

http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2012/02/syria-assad-intervention

...and also from Mejdi Hassan on the 'complications' of military intervention.

The job of the Left in politics should always be to protect the weak the persecuted and the voiceless. End of story.

[khib70]

http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2012/02/arab-world-syria-essay-iran

Johnathan Powell talks sense here. (although as Blairs chief of staff some may be prejudiced against anything he has to say)

http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2012/02/syria-assad-intervention

...and also from Mejdi Hassan on the 'complications' of military intervention.

The job of the Left in politics should always be to protect the weak the persecuted and the voiceless. End of story.
:agree:Two very good pieces on different aspects of the situation. Particularly important are Powell's assertion that you can't oppose progress to democracy because you might not like the winners of the first election, and Hassan's insistence that bringing China and Russia onboard is crucial.

Many people , including myself, will feel the gut reaction that we should get in and stop the slaughter, but as Hassan rightly argues, getting in won't stop it. More stringent and earlier military intervention would, I think have stopped, the murderous Milosevic regime in Kosovo and Bosnia, but Syria is very different.

As for the proper role of the Left, it's not for me to say since I don't consider myself part of it. But the way you define it is to me the job of all democrats, left right and centre.

[steakbake]

:agree:Two very good pieces on different aspects of the situation. Particularly important are Powell's assertion that you can't oppose progress to democracy because you might not like the winners of the first election, and Hassan's insistence that bringing China and Russia onboard is crucial.

Many people , including myself, will feel the gut reaction that we should get in and stop the slaughter, but as Hassan rightly argues, getting in won't stop it. More stringent and earlier military intervention would, I think have stopped, the murderous Milosevic regime in Kosovo and Bosnia, but Syria is very different.

As for the proper role of the Left, it's not for me to say since I don't consider myself part of it. But the way you define it is to me the job of all democrats, left right and centre.

I don't think anything could have stopped Bosnia happening. Kosovo, perhaps, because that was a matter of secession and there was a diplomatic angle.

Not Bosnia, though. That ran far deeper than where the lines on the map could drawn. In a sense, there is an argument which would say that it was in many ways, inevitable.

All "we" could do at the time was stand on the sidelines and watch through our fingers.

However, the UN intervention was largely ineffective and did not do enough to curb the worst excesses of brutality and protect people.

What I think marks out the biggest hypocrisy in the world is the conflict in the Congo: the "Second Congo War". Millions of people died. Most people in the west know or heard nothing about it. Interestingly, Kabila identified himself as a marxist.

[hibsbollah]

New report from Amnesty, not for the squeamish.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=19997&utm_source=aiuk&utm_medium=Homepage&utm_campaign=MENA&utm_content=Syria_mainPR

[khib70]

New report from Amnesty, not for the squeamish.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=19997&utm_source=aiuk&utm_medium=Homepage&utm_campaign=MENA&utm_content=Syria_mainPR
God, you're right there!

Hopefully the Russian and Chinese governments will take time off from torturing and murdering their own dissidents to have a wee read. The suffering of the Syrian people beggars belief, and those who support it by continually opposing any moves against Assad's dictatorship should hang their heads.

And I think you're being genuinely evenhanded! :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/skdpVc5O-GHz5iLRAfqL-dQ/view.m?id=15&gid=world/2012/may/26/syria-houla-military-assault-children&cat=top-stories

Unspeakable. If the UNSC does not act, it, and the veto system, must lose all credibility.

[yeezus.]

It's an awkward position for the west to be in. But the pro-war loonies should take note of the arab spring and consequent uprisings that followed. The west would be making a very big mistake if it were to intervene in Syria.

[IndieHibby]

It's an awkward position for the west to be in. But the pro-war loonies should take note of the arab spring and consequent uprisings that followed. The west would be making a very big mistake if it were to intervene in Syria.

So what would you suggest? Let other Arab league countries do it? Or is there another way?

[The_Exile]

Syria has a very large and very tough, well drilled, well organised and very well financed army. This wouldn't be a quick fly in and sort it out, it would require a huge military effort from the west. We're already stretched in other bits of the world we deem more valuable (ie oil rich), so I doubt you'll be seeing anything other than political pressure in the near future, it's tragic, but the way it works.

I'd be utterly amazed if we see military action in Syria.

[marinello59]

It's an awkward position for the west to be in. But the pro-war loonies should take note of the arab spring and consequent uprisings that followed. The west would be making a very big mistake if it were to intervene in Syria.

If the Spanish Civil War was fought today the Left would probably denounce those heading off to fight fascism as pro-war loonies.

[Hibrandenburg]

If the Spanish Civil War was fought today the Left would probably denounce those heading off to fight fascism as pro-war loonies.

Correct 100%

[yeezus.]

If the Spanish Civil War was fought today the Left would probably denounce those heading off to fight fascism as pro-war loonies.

Now you know fine well that there is a huge difference between the Spanish civil war and the illegal invasion of Iraq. Frank Ryan and his men were heroes.

It's not the first time people have tried to bring up the Spanish civil war anytime opposition to Iraq and Afghanistan is mentioned.

[yeezus.]

Correct 100%

It's not true, I oppose both wars in Afghanistan and Iraq - that doesn't make me a complete pacifist.

[hibsbollah]

If the Spanish Civil War was fought today the Left would probably denounce those heading off to fight fascism as pro-war loonies.

I'm afraid in a lot of cases you're spot on. As ive said more than once on here, the 'job' of the Left should be to oppose tyrrany wherever it occurs.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's not true, I oppose both wars in Afghanistan and Iraq - that doesn't make me a complete pacifist.

You're also not the Left.

[yeezus.]

You're also not the Left.

Most people on the left support the efforts of the republicans in the Spanish civil war. There is a big difference between that and dropping bombs on Afghanistan and Iraq.

[khib70]

Now you know fine well that there is a huge difference between the Spanish civil war and the illegal invasion of Iraq. Frank Ryan and his men were heroes.

It's not the first time people have tried to bring up the Spanish civil war anytime opposition to Iraq and Afghanistan is mentioned.
Frank Ryan subsequently travelled to Germany to chat up the Nazis, and died aboard the U-Boat which was giving him a lift home. Not very heroic.

And there are people around who will hypocritically oppose any Western intervention anywhere - not much has been heard from them condemning the murderous thugs in Damascus.

[yeezus.]

Frank Ryan subsequently travelled to Germany to chat up the Nazis, and died aboard the U-Boat which was giving him a lift home. Not very heroic.

And there are people around who will hypocritically oppose any Western intervention anywhere - not much has been heard from them condemning the murderous thugs in Damascus.

Some on the left have been opposing dictators in the middle east while the likes of Assad was staying in Buckingham palace.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Avanti Popolo.

[Betty Boop]

Russia prepares its army for deployment in Syria.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31559.htm

[VickMackie]

Russia and China are the new US and UK.

They're using the Syria situation to display this. If the US try and intervene this could easily escalate.

I think moves are being made with longer term views TBH.