This flawed vision.

[blackpoolhibs]

While i can see we are losing money, like every team in the SPL bar maybe celtc.

How have we managed to build a new stand, build a new training complex and still provide every manager with more money to spend than most?

I'd bet every club in the SPL would love a vision like that.

The only thing thats flawed, is their appointments as football managers. How much more should we spend before we can compete with every team bar the the old firm and the gimps?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The way the game in Scotland has been going in recent years I just don't understand why they felt there was a need to increase the capacity of a stadium that only sold out once in a blue moon at its former capacity. Surely put a product on the park first to get folk through the turnstiles wouldve been a better idea.
Now we have a nice stadium, but, nobody wants to sit in it to watch the rubbish that has been on the park for about the last 2.5 seasons.

[Cropley10]

The way the game in Scotland has been going in recent years I just don't understand why they felt there was a need to increase the capacity of a stadium that only sold out once in a blue moon at its former capacity. Surely put a product on the park first to get folk through the turnstiles wouldve been a better idea.
Now we have a nice stadium, but, nobody wants to sit in it to watch the rubbish that has been on the park for about the last 2.5 seasons.

A brand new stand, a completed stadium - not once has it been 'Sold Out'. Looks like a vanity project now, someone wanting to leave a legacy, while we manage to assemble a team without one decent player in it (other than GOC, perhaps). Crazy madness.

[blackpoolhibs]

The way the game in Scotland has been going in recent years I just don't understand why they felt there was a need to increase the capacity of a stadium that only sold out once in a blue moon at its former capacity. Surely put a product on the park first to get folk through the turnstiles wouldve been a better idea.
Now we have a nice stadium, but, nobody wants to sit in it to watch the rubbish that has been on the park for about the last 2.5 seasons.

Its built, so is the training centre. We can moan as much as we want, they are not going to knock it down.

I asked how have we managed to do both while still giving the manager sufficient funds, better than most?

Again, how much more money should we spend than our nearest competitors before we need to be looking at just what they have spent it on?

[Geo_1875]

A brand new stand, a completed stadium - not once has it been 'Sold Out'. Looks like a vanity project now, someone wanting to leave a legacy, while we manage to assemble a team without one decent player in it (other than GOC, perhaps). Crazy madness.

It had to be built when it was because if we had allowed the planning permission to lapse we'd have never got it through the corrupt City of Edinburgh Council. Might not please everybody but it had to be done.

[Kaiser1962]

While i can see we are losing money, like every team in the SPL bar maybe celtc.

How have we managed to build a new stand, build a new training complex and still provide every manager with more money to spend than most?

I'd bet every club in the SPL would love a vision like that.

The only thing thats flawed, is their appointments as football managers. How much more should we spend before we can compete with every team bar the the old firm and the gimps?


Celtic lose money as well BH, although they seem to have had a better spell in the last 5 years than the preceeding 5, during which they lost quite heavily. They bring in around eight times what Hibs do.

[blackpoolhibs]

Celtic lose money as well BH, although they seem to have had a better spell in the last 5 years than the preceeding 5, during which they lost quite heavily. They bring in around eight times what Hibs do.

I never knew that, i thought they were breaking even or even showing a slight profit. I just cant understand how we have managed to do so much work off the field, and still provide a budget more than everyone else bar the obvious 3, yet folk still want us to spend more?

I'd just like whoever the manager is to bloody manage what he has much better than he has.

[IWasThere2016]

While i can see we are losing money, like every team in the SPL bar maybe celtc.

How have we managed to build a new stand, build a new training complex and still provide every manager with more money to spend than most?

I'd bet every club in the SPL would love a vision like that.

The only thing thats flawed, is their appointments as football managers. How much more should we spend before we can compete with every team bar the the old firm and the gimps?

And if we end up in the First Division or heaven forbid we never see a SC win in our lifetimes - will it have failed?

[Baldy Foghorn]

I never knew that, i thought they were breaking even or even showing a slight profit. I just cant understand how we have managed to do so much work off the field, and still provide a budget more than everyone else bar the obvious 3, yet folk still want us to spend more?

I'd just like whoever the manager is to bloody manage what he has much better than he has.

Our squad is poor overall, do we trust PF to bring in quality?

[Andy74]

And if we end up in the First Division or heaven forbid we never see a SC win in our lifetimes - will it have failed?

I think he mentioned the managers - if we end up in the first division then the recent managers have failed.

What other way do you work out that the team with the 4th biggest budget goes down if that happens?

Should it have been the 3rd biggest budget to finish say 8th or the 2nd biggest to finish 4th?

How does this work?

[blackpoolhibs]

And if we end up in the First Division or heaven forbid we never see a SC win in our lifetimes - will it have failed?

As usual no answer, i will ask again. How much more money should whoever is football manager at Hibs spend more than our nearest competitors?

[blackpoolhibs]

Our squad is poor overall, do we trust PF to bring in quality?

I have to, he's the manager? I dont know much about him other than what i have read or seen on HTV, he needs time i suppose, its gonna be hard for him though.

[greenlex]

And if we end up in the First Division or heaven forbid we never see a SC win in our lifetimes - will it have failed?

Maybe G but it is a work in progress so a season or so in the first division could just be part of that process. It would be part of the journey and not the final destination.
If we get into the top 4 regularly and the odd cup win bearing in mind our history recent and distant is that success or will we want better? You better believe it. Again not a final destination but part of the journey
Constantly re evaluating where you are and where you want to go is the vision.
the platform is there. The right man to make and take the team where we all want to go is required. Do we have him? Time will tell. If not it will be Fenlon out and another will get a shot until we strike it lucky. Backing each and every one of them along the way.

[Cropley10]

As usual no answer, i will ask again. How much more money should whoever is football manager at Hibs spend more than our nearest competitors?

It's not about how much you spend but what and who you spend it on. At this Hibs are easily the worst team in Scotland.

We seem to be completely incapable of bringing in quality or actually building a team. Ultimately the manager is to blame but we seem devoid of any team or succession planning.

Chosing Managers who know nothing about Scottish Football (CC & PF) is a high-risk strategy from the Board. And we're now hoping that Fenlon will 'buck the trend' and be able to sort out the dross we have, find better, more talented replacements and develop them in to a winning team. Trouble is this isn't the LoI...

[Kaiser1962]

I never knew that, i thought they were breaking even or even showing a slight profit. I just cant understand how we have managed to do so much work off the field, and still provide a budget more than everyone else bar the obvious 3, yet folk still want us to spend more?

I'd just like whoever the manager is to bloody manage what he has much better than he has.


Celtic made a profit of around £100k on a turnover of £52.6m. The previous year they lost £2.1 m against a turnover of £61.7m. In the last ten seasons Celtic have lost £18.5m

Incididentally Peter Lawell's overall package for last season was £800k.

[IWasThere2016]

As usual no answer, i will ask again. How much more money should whoever is football manager at Hibs spend more than our nearest competitors?

Err., I am repeatedly pointing out our financial position isn't all it is made out to be. My view is it should neveer have got to this. Resources spent on the wrong priorities in the wrong measures.

[blackpoolhibs]

It's not about how much you spend but what and who you spend it on. At this Hibs are easily the worst team in Scotland.

We seem to be completely incapable of bringing in quality or actually building a team. Ultimately the manager is to blame but we seem devoid of any team or succession planning.

Chosing Managers who know nothing about Scottish Football (CC & PF) is a high-risk strategy from the Board. And we're now hoping that Fenlon will 'buck the trend' and be able to sort out the dross we have, find better, more talented replacements and develop them in to a winning team. Trouble is this isn't the LoI...

I cant argue with that, and this imo is where Petrie and co have failed. Every manager has been backed, but their failure to pick competent ones is the flaw, not building training centres or new stands.

[Kaiser1962]

It's not about how much you spend but what and who you spend it on. At this Hibs are easily the worst team in Scotland.

We seem to be completely incapable of bringing in quality or actually building a team. Ultimately the manager is to blame but we seem devoid of any team or succession planning.

Chosing Managers who know nothing about Scottish Football (CC & PF) is a high-risk strategy from the Board. And we're now hoping that Fenlon will 'buck the trend' and be able to sort out the dross we have, find better, more talented replacements and develop them in to a winning team. Trouble is this isn't the LoI...


Dundee United also picked Fenlon but couldnt afford him at the time, so at least we are not the only one's who felt he could do a job. I remain hopeful.

[blackpoolhibs]

Err., I am repeatedly pointing out our financial position isn't all it is made out to be. My view is it should neveer have got to this. Resources spent on the wrong priorities in the wrong measures.

Yet we are spending resources on training centres and new stands, AND STILL GIVING THE MANAGER MORE THAN EVERYONE BAR THE 3 OBVIOUS TEAMS. Still no answer, i will ask again. How much more should we spend than our nearest competitors?

[Hibercelona]

Scrap EM, bring in a fresh scouting system. Use the remaining cash to replace these losers and have the new lads run up and down Arthur Seat as their new training programme. Problem solved.

[Kaiser1962]

Err., I am repeatedly pointing out our financial position isn't all it is made out to be. My view is it should neveer have got to this. Resources spent on the wrong priorities in the wrong measures.

It certainly isnt.


But by that argument Rangers are a roaring success. As are Hearts for that matter.

[BEEJ]

The right man to make and take the team where we all want to go is required. Do we have him? Time will tell. If not it will be Fenlon out and another will get a shot until we strike it lucky.
:confused:

If it's all down to luck then clearly there is no requirement for expertise of any kind. Therefore we can strip some more of the expense away from our well remunerated Board of Directors.

Personally I think the 'luck' element (with accompanying shrug) is being vastly overplayed on different threads.

[Kaiser1962]

Scrape EM, bring in a fresh scouting system. Use the remaining cash to replace these losers and have the new lads run up and down Arthur Seat as their new training programme. Problem solved.


You may have a point in that the guys are training and passing on bowling green type surfaces which does not prepare for some scottish tattie field in the middle of winter.

If this is an issue though we may as well give up.

[Andy74]

It's not about how much you spend but what and who you spend it on. At this Hibs are easily the worst team in Scotland.

We seem to be completely incapable of bringing in quality or actually building a team. Ultimately the manager is to blame but we seem devoid of any team or succession planning.

Chosing Managers who know nothing about Scottish Football (CC & PF) is a high-risk strategy from the Board. And we're now hoping that Fenlon will 'buck the trend' and be able to sort out the dross we have, find better, more talented replacements and develop them in to a winning team. Trouble is this isn't the LoI...

Where do you get that Fenlon knows nothng about Scottish football??

He's been a Celtic fan and season ticket holder and the Scottish market is a good one for the League of Ireland so he will be well aware of it.

Vitally the Irish league is also a good market for us, as are the English leagues and Mowbray showed that a decent know;edge of those places are a god thing.

Bobby W, Jim Duffy, Mixu even Hughes to some extent showed that a knowledge of Scottish football makes no real odds.

You do seem to have a real issue about the League of Ireland or Fenlon, or both.

[Keith_M]

East Mains: I don't know if it was the right decision or not to spend money on this. At the current time, it doesn't look like it produced much benefit. In the long run, who knows.



East Stand: As has been stated SOOO many times on here before: The East Stand needed replaced. - Hibs chose the cheapest design available, so as to keep the costs down - Hibs got the stand built for a price that was, due to conditions in the building industry at the time, unlikely to be repeated. The stand was built with a long term view in mind, so the current attendances are really irrelevant as to whether or not it was a good idea but the points I made previously are much more so.

How much more of a business case do you want than that???


As for BHs point, I totally agree. Hibs do not have massive sums of money to invest in the playing side of things and it's the managerial appointments that have been the main problem. Hibs have now appointed a new manager that we mostly know nothing about so all we can do is hope that he turns out to be a decent appointment.

[IWasThere2016]

Maybe G but it is a work in progress so a season or so in the first division could just be part of that process. It would be part of the journey and not the final destination.
If we get into the top 4 regularly and the odd cup win bearing in mind our history recent and distant is that success or will we want better? You better believe it. Again not a final destination but part of the journey
Constantly re evaluating where you are and where you want to go is the vision.
the platform is there. The right man to make and take the team where we all want to go is required. Do we have him? Time will tell. If not it will be Fenlon out and another will get a shot until we strike it lucky. Backing each and every one of them along the way.

The journey MUST involve more stops-offs at Silverware other than 3 LCs in 40 year - or it is not a success IMHO. I've seen the Sheep, Arabs, Hearts, Well, Killie win SCs (and some more than once in the last few decades).

[steakbake]

Dundee United also picked Fenlon but couldnt afford him at the time, so at least we are not the only one's who felt he could do a job. I remain hopeful.

I do as well. I think he will ultimately be shown to be an excellent manager. However, the number of managers who have been able to flourish at Hibs indicates that there must be some kind of problem behind the scenes.

[greenlex]

:confused:

If it's all down to luck then clearly there is no requirement for expertise of any kind. Therefore we can strip some more of the expense away from our well remunerated Board of Directors.

Personally I think the 'luck' element (with accompanying shrug) is being vastly overplayed on different threads.

I am sure we have had this conversation before but you can only appoint the best available candidate at the time using any amount of expertise. You can even go and head hunt someone who isn't available. It will still be down to luck whether it works out or not.
Not every team in any league in the world will achieve its goals as that is impossible and the fact is most dont so the chances are whoever you appoint is that they will fail. Luck plays a bigger part than you think.

[Hibercelona]

Kaiser1962 - It certainly is a concern mate. These imposters dont look physically or mentally fit. We need players who are physically and mentally hard to get us out of this mess.

[3pm]

I notice we've been particularly bad since the TV cameras have been placed in the West. Get the cameras back in the East and watch the good times roll!

Poor Hughes and Caldererse never stood a chance with the cameras in the wrong place! :o)

[Cropley10]

Where do you get that Fenlon knows nothng about Scottish football??

He's been a Celtic fan and season ticket holder and the Scottish market is a good one for the League of Ireland so he will be well aware of it.

Vitally the Irish league is also a good market for us, as are the English leagues and Mowbray showed that a decent know;edge of those places are a god thing.

Bobby W, Jim Duffy, Mixu even Hughes to some extent showed that a knowledge of Scottish football makes no real odds.

You do seem to have a real issue about the League of Ireland or Fenlon, or both.

How many LOI players have gone on to do well in Scotland?

How did Stephen Kenny get on at the Pars?

I hope Fenlon will do really well. But I think he's under-qualified and inexperienced. I hope I'm very wrong. (But when 3/4 of the stadium could see we needed a change at circa 70 mins and the only man who can make that change didn't I started to have my doubts). Anyone who knows anything about the SPL and in particular what these Derbies are like would have know holding on for a draw was not much of a plan. He looked inept yesterday. Doyle got a ridiculous cameo, far too little and too late.

[The_Todd]

Hibs problems are not financial. The stand and training centre needed to happen - the new East Stand wasn't just an expansion of Easter Road, it was also replacing a crumbling embarrassment of a stand, we loved the East (and I personally loved the East) but it had to go. And while replacing it, how shortsighted would a small stand have been? We don't know what the future holds, but the current Easter Road now has the capacity to handle whatever.

Are we saying that the reason we find ourselves well adrift of Motherwell, St Mirren and St Johnstone is because we can no longer afford to compete with them? Sorry, but that's ludicrous - blaming the new stand and training centre is understandable because they're easy and visible targets but they're not the reason. Our woes are much more complex than that, there's a downbeat attitude right through the club just now. I don't know how to fix it - if I did I'd be a richer man - but it's not simply a case of throwing money at it. After all, if that were the case we'd be comfortably 4th already.

[Speedway]

Yet we are spending resources on training centres and new stands, AND STILL GIVING THE MANAGER MORE THAN EVERYONE BAR THE 3 OBVIOUS TEAMS. Still no answer, i will ask again. How much more should we spend than our nearest competitors?

The East was built at a price that they felt was a one off and to raise the chance of ER getting Semi's gigs and other events to bring sme greenbacks in.

To answer the question directly, Hibernian FC need to spend 67.4% more than our nearest competitors over five years (adjusted for inflation) in order to guarantee two 1-0 wins against the gimps.

I hope that answers your question.

[BEEJ]

I am sure we have had this conversation before but you can only appoint the best available candidate at the time using any amount of expertise. You can even go and head hunt someone who isn't available. It will still be down to luck whether it works out or not.
Not every team in any league in the world will achieve its goals as that is impossible and the fact is most dont so the chances are whoever you appoint is that they will fail. Luck plays a bigger part than you think.
In an attempt to quantify our different opinions on this, my gut instinct would put the luck element at 20% of the whole package of factors that go into the successful recruitment of a good manager, leading ultimately to a decent squad and good team performances.

What figure would you put on it?

Careful! Too high and the club don't need a Board of Directors. :wink:

[blackpoolhibs]

In an attempt to quantify our different opinions on this, my gut instinct would put the luck element at 20% of the whole package of factors that go into the successful recruitment of a good manager, leading ultimately to a decent squad and good team performances.

What figure would you put on it?

Careful! Too high and the club don't need a Board of Directors. :wink:

:greengrin

[IWasThere2016]

It certainly isnt.


But by that argument Rangers are a roaring success. As are Hearts for that matter.

What a load of utter pish as per.

So are you seriously trying to tell us there is noting between Hibs and the Yams. What utter tosh!

[cad]

Our squad is poor overall, do we trust PF to bring in quality?


Great question

Hes the boards choice thats our fete Pat gets on with it .


Next STF gives us cash ,AGAIN ,how much lets not be shy about this in this window 4 players of superior quality , 3 year deals ,
building a base your no getting much change out of ,well thats the big Question £2m £3m £4m could would or should Hibs spend these amounts, for sure the fans aint going to pay to watch like for like for their £425

Or do we take the drop come what may ,Rod takes the hit on the ST and we wait for self sufficiency to kick in

The vision our club has will be obvious to all come the end of Jan

[Baldy Foghorn]

Great question

Hes the boards choice thats our fete Pat gets on with it .


Next STF gives us cash ,AGAIN ,how much lets not be shy about this in this window 4 players of superior quality , 3 year deals ,
building a base your no getting much change out of ,well thats the big Question £2m £3m £4m could would or should Hibs spend these amounts, for sure the fans aint going to pay to watch like for like for their £425

Or do we take the drop come what may ,Rod takes the hit on the ST and we wait for self sufficiency to kick in

The vision our club has will be obvious to all come the end of Jan

I wrote to Board in Summer, citing a lack of ambition....The end of January will answer that in full......

[greenlex]

In an attempt to quantify our different opinions on this, my gut instinct would put the luck element at 20% of the whole package of factors that go into the successful recruitment of a good manager, leading ultimately to a decent squad and good team performances.

What figure would you put on it?

Careful! Too high and the club don't need a Board of Directors. :wink:
Your Gut. My Gut. That's the thing about luck it's unquantifiable. If it was and a couple of directors or even any staff for that matter could be dispensed with I think it would be done. Imagine being lucky with injuries and suspensions you could operate with a squad of 16 or so. Could save a fortune and we could spend more on better individuals.

How unlucky was it to spend wisely on a new stand taking advantage in te downturn inthe building trade only to find out we might have got it done cheaper waiting till this year as the downturn/ recession continues?
How Lucky was it we got the cash in from the golden generation just before the financial bubble burst for Football this side of the border?
How lucky we all were when Mowbray was appointed.
How unlucky were we when Calderwood didn't work out?
Hw unlucky were we when Brownlie broke his leg.
You see where I am going with this luck thing?

[Kaiser1962]

What a load of utter pish as per.

So are you seriously trying to tell us there is noting between Hibs and the Yams. What utter tosh!


I was agreeing with the bit in bold, that our "financial position isn't all it is made out to be". Its not.


The second part was that if you are judging on results on the field, the "core business", then Rangers are a success, as are the Yams to a degree. And there is a lot between Hibs and Hearts , never said there wasnt, but (on the field) this is a direct result that Hearts pay around double what we do.

[Andy74]

How many LOI players have gone on to do well in Scotland?

How did Stephen Kenny get on at the Pars?

I hope Fenlon will do really well. But I think he's under-qualified and inexperienced. I hope I'm very wrong. (But when 3/4 of the stadium could see we needed a change at circa 70 mins and the only man who can make that change didn't I started to have my doubts). Anyone who knows anything about the SPL and in particular what these Derbies are like would have know holding on for a draw was not much of a plan. He looked inept yesterday. Doyle got a ridiculous cameo, far too little and too late.

The following came from/played in the LoI and have done okay in Scotland or England:

Connor Salmon
Richie Foran
Wes Hoolahan
Sean Dillon
Paddy McCourt
Nial McGinn
Kevin Doyle
Shane Long
Seamus Coleman
Noel Hunt
Daryl Murphy
Keith Fahey
David Meyler
Roy O'Donovon

Kenny didn't do well, no. Can you pin that on coming from Ireland and lack of SPL knowledge or was he just rubbish, a bit like dozens of managers who were Scottish and did have SPL knowledge before and after him.

I don't see how winning so many titles anywhere makes him under experienced or qualified unless you are toitally dismissing that league. I guess winning so mnay things might mean he had slightly different knowledge about what a change at 70 mins might do to the team compared to 3/4 of the stadium - or are we all sufficiently experienced or qualified??

It's not Roy of the Rovers so I didn't really expect Doyle to come in for his first game in Scotland and suddenly make an impact. Fenlon will know more than us how ready he was or what putting him in might do for the shape of the team that was on top at that point.

[blackpoolhibs]

I wrote to Board in Summer, citing a lack of ambition....The end of January will answer that in full......

I dont see any lack of ambition, we as a club are paying more wages and spending more money than most. We dont have the 11th biggest budget, yet are sitting 11th. Its the clowns this board appoint who have us in this dire position, lack of ambition i dont think so. Lack of ability to appoint the right manager (hopefully in the past), definitely.

[Kaiser1962]

What a load of utter pish as per.

So are you seriously trying to tell us there is noting between Hibs and the Yams. What utter tosh!


What do you mean "as per"?

As for the second line please point out where I said that?

[Eyrie]

While i can see we are losing money, like every team in the SPL bar maybe celtc.

How have we managed to build a new stand, build a new training complex and still provide every manager with more money to spend than most?

I'd bet every club in the SPL would love a vision like that.

The only thing thats flawed, is their appointments as football managers. How much more should we spend before we can compete with every team bar the the old firm and the gimps?
:top marks

[Baldy Foghorn]

I dont see any lack of ambition, we as a club are paying more wages and spending more money than most. We dont have the 11th biggest budget, yet are sitting 11th. Its the clowns this board appoint who have us in this dire position, lack of ambition i dont think so. Lack of ability to appoint the right manager (hopefully in the past), definitely.

Our Board have made the wrong managerial appointments for too long, and only time will tell if PF is the right appointment......Therfore the Board are to blame as much as any of the failed managers. I mentioned I wrote to Board, one of my concerns was bringing back Sproule, I was told that the Board fully engaged with Manager signings.........CC got that one wrong, as I have been proven...........

[Kaiser1962]

The journey MUST involve more stops-offs at Silverware other than 3 LCs in 40 year - or it is not a success IMHO. I've seen the Sheep, Arabs, Hearts, Well, Killie win SCs (and some more than once in the last few decades).

In the last 20 years we have won two LC's. Sheep have won 1 LC (96), Arabs have won 2 SC's (94,10) Hearts have won 2 SC's (98,06), Well have won 1 SC (91) and Killie 1 SC (97).


Much of a muchness really.

[Spike Mandela]

I dont see any lack of ambition, we as a club are paying more wages and spending more money than most. We dont have the 11th biggest budget, yet are sitting 11th. Its the clowns this board appoint who have us in this dire position, lack of ambition i dont think so. Lack of ability to appoint the right manager (hopefully in the past), definitely.

Yet that 'fourth biggest budget' had to be used to replenish a squad after a massive clearout. The 'fourth biggest budget' spread thinly isn't any great advantage. If we had a strongish squad under contract and could use our 'fourth biggest budget' to add 2 or 3 quality signings a year it might be different.

The 'fourth biggest budget' will still no doubt have some money left in the bank for January, hopefully PF will get some players worthy of the 'fourth biggest budget'

Did I mention that I think Aberdeen overtook us this year as the, ahem, 'fourth biggest budget':greengrin

[Kaiser1962]

Did I mention that I think Aberdeen overtook us this year as the, ahem, 'fourth biggest budget':greengrin


Generally they do Spike :greengrin

Occassionaly we outspend them but, more often than not, they spend more than us.

[blackpoolhibs]

Our Board have made the wrong managerial appointments for too long, and only time will tell if PF is the right appointment......Therfore the Board are to blame as much as any of the failed managers. I mentioned I wrote to Board, one of my concerns was bringing back Sproule, I was told that the Board fully engaged with Manager signings.........CC got that one wrong, as I have been proven...........

I'm with you all the way when you say the board have made the wrong managerial appointments, but to want the board to back their manager then say they were wrong to back him when he signed Sproule is strange?

Calderclown got a budget, and i will keep saying it, a budget better than most. Its down to the manager who he signs, christ can you imagine the trouble if Petrie had said no you cant sign Sproule he's not good enough? He'd be accused of undermining the manager, something he was accused of doing with Collins when nothing is further from the truth.

A manager gets his budget and will fly or fail on his management/buys/sales/tactics but he needs to have that free reign in who he wants and does not want.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I'm with you all the way when you say the board have made the wrong managerial appointments, but to want the board to back their manager then say they were wrong to back him when he signed Sproule is strange?

Calderclown got a budget, and i will keep saying it, a budget better than most. Its down to the manager who he signs, christ can you imagine the trouble if Petrie had said no you cant sign Sproule he's not good enough? He'd be accused of undermining the manager, something he was accused of doing with Collins when nothing is further from the truth.

A manager gets his budget and will fly or fail on his management/buys/sales/tactics but he needs to have that free reign in who he wants and does not want.

Yip I understand all that.... My point was alluding to that yes the Board backed Manager, but my concerns where that Sproule was finished....I was told that the Board value a managers player assessment over mine:wink:

I therefore know more than CC:greengrin

[BEEJ]

Your Gut. My Gut. That's the thing about luck it's unquantifiable.
Leave my gut out of this. :greengrin

And if 'luck is unquantifiable' then you're unable to make the statement you did in your previous post:


Luck plays a bigger part than you think.


If it was and a couple of directors or even any staff for that matter could be dispensed with I think it would be done. Imagine being lucky with injuries and suspensions you could operate with a squad of 16 or so. Could save a fortune and we could spend more on better individuals.
It's not about having foresight and staffing accordingly. You're declaring that regrdless of the outcome of a managerial recruitment exercise, it has largely been down to luck.

The point is that if it is all down to luck then managerial appointments at ER are a roll of the dice whether SL / RP are in charge of the exercise or you and me.

So, if that's the case, why do we have any more than, say. one Executive Director?

[blackpoolhibs]

Yip I understand all that.... My point was alluding to that yes the Board backed Manager, but my concerns where that Sproule was finished....I was told that the Board value a managers player assessment over mine:wink:

I therefore know more than CC:greengrin

I have a piece of roast beef in my fridge, way past its sell by date that knows more than that clown. :wink:

[greenlex]

Leave my gut out of this. :greengrin

And if 'luck is unquantifiable' then you're unable to make the statement you did in your previous post:




It's not about having foresight and staffing accordingly. You're declaring that regrdless of the outcome of a managerial recruitment exercise, it has largely been down to luck.

The point is that if it is all down to luck then managerial appointments at ER are a roll of the dice whether SL / RP are in charge of the exercise or you and me.

So, if that's the case, why do we have any more than, say. one Executive Director?

I am not however saying its ALL down to luck. It does however play its part after all other considerations. It's not perhaps as relevant in other recruitment situations outside football but this is football.
Sir Aex Ferguson. One match away from getting the sack and that could have been decided on the bounce of the ball, a wrong offside call or any other influence outside what he actually did. He won the game United went on to win the cup and the rest is history. If it had gone the other way he might not have been the success elsewhere.
Appointing a manager is at the end of the recruitment process and not a roll of the dice. After this is done it is very much down to luck whether it works out. So the whole thing being succesfull is down to luck.
Take Mowbray and Calderwood. The former not experienced at all the latter very much experienced.
Two opposites on taking a punt with two very different outcomes.


I assume the different directors bring something different to the board. I don't know. Maybe one would be enough?


I only said luck plays a bigger part than you think as you seemed to be dismissing it. Just because luck is unquantifiable doesn't mean I can't say we were lucky with Mowbray or unlucky with Calderwood. We're we're in both cases or do you disagree?

[HibsMax]

The way the game in Scotland has been going in recent years I just don't understand why they felt there was a need to increase the capacity of a stadium that only sold out once in a blue moon at its former capacity. Surely put a product on the park first to get folk through the turnstiles wouldve been a better idea.
Now we have a nice stadium, but, nobody wants to sit in it to watch the rubbish that has been on the park for about the last 2.5 seasons.

Building for the future? If they had to rebuild the stand anyway, why build it so small that it "might" need to be scrapped and rebuilt again in a few years time? That's just one thought.

[Hibercelona]

IMO (and many may disagree with me here).

We should be looking to sign the best we can from the likes of Motherwell, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, St Mirren... etc this season, instead of signing players from countries and leagues that we've almost never heard of before.

Sure, it wouldn't make us instantly brilliant to watch. But it would certainly get us back into a secure place in the table and give us something to build on.

I'm sick and tired of other teams signing players that were apparently "not Hibs class" only for those teams to out class us in pretty much every department on the pitch.

I don't buy into the whole "we have nae money". If you can afford 5k here and there for players that can't even cross a ball of make a simple defensive hoof up the park, then you can certainly afford whats already available to us in the SPL.

[Cropley10]

IMO (and many may disagree with me here).

We should be looking to sign the best we can from the likes of Motherwell, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, St Mirren... etc this season, instead of signing players from countries and leagues that we've almost never heard of before.

Sure, it wouldn't make us instantly brilliant to watch. But it would certainly get us back into a secure place in the table and give us something to build on.

I'm sick and tired of other teams signing players that were apparently "not Hibs class" only for those teams to out class us in pretty much every department on the pitch.

I don't buy into the whole "we have nae money". If you can afford 5k here and there for players that can't even cross a ball of make a simple defensive hoof up the park, then you can certainly afford whats already available to us in the SPL.

Well said.

We've tried the bargain basement journeyman and have been in the bottom three for 18 months.

[Hibercelona]

Well said.

We've tried the bargain basement journeyman and have been in the bottom three for 18 months.

The problem is though, we don't actually end up with a bargain.

The board wait and wait and wait until the last minute then end up making emergency signings to try and patch the team up. These signings end up costing Hibs more than they planned to spend to begin with.

So whats the result?

Dross at a high price.

[greenlex]

The problem is though, we don't actually end up with a bargain.

The board wait and wait and wait until the last minute then end up making emergency signings to try and patch the team up. These signings end up costing Hibs more than they planned to spend to begin with.

So whats the result?

Dross at a high price.
Do you really think we sit on our ***** till sometime during the last week before doing something?

[Hibercelona]

Do you really think we sit on our ***** till sometime during the last week before doing something?

:agree:

[blackpoolhibs]

Well said.

We've tried the bargain basement journeyman and have been in the bottom three for 18 months.

Motherwell have not done too bad bringing in players, we just need a manager who knows what a decent player looks like.

They are out there, even in the bargain basement.

[TornadoHibby]

The way the game in Scotland has been going in recent years I just don't understand why they felt there was a need to increase the capacity of a stadium that only sold out once in a blue moon at its former capacity. Surely put a product on the park first to get folk through the turnstiles wouldve been a better idea.
Now we have a nice stadium, but, nobody wants to sit in it to watch the rubbish that has been on the park for about the last 2.5 seasons.

A longer term strategic decision (possibly) by the Board as failure to build it when they did would have resulted in the existing planning consent expiring meaning that a fresh application would have had to be lodged allowing EVERY ONE of the now built and occupied flats behind it being able to object and (probably) prevent it being ever built!

Also, at the time of tendering, it is likely that a very favourable (cheaper) construction cost might have been secured saving the club further cash in the longer term as well as the short term.

I imaging that the decision to proceed to build would be looked at from a strategic continued justification point of view up to the point the contract was signed and then until signed off as complete to ensure best value for money!

That's just another of the things that Board's are responsible for !

[Cropley10]

Do you really think we sit on our ***** till sometime during the last week before doing something?

You'd hope not. But it sometimes feels like that. Top Negotiator Petrie refusing to budge, that sort of thing.

[Andy74]

The problem is though, we don't actually end up with a bargain.

The board wait and wait and wait until the last minute then end up making emergency signings to try and patch the team up. These signings end up costing Hibs more than they planned to spend to begin with.

So whats the result?

Dross at a high price.
Nonsense.

[matty_f]

You'd hope not. But it sometimes feels like that. Top Negotiator Petrie refusing to budge, that sort of thing.
Considering we played a new signing just yesterday, as well as announcing the signing of Graeme Smith at about a minute past midnight on 1st Jan a couple of years back, you'd think folk would maybe realise that the idea of the board sitting with their thumbs up their hoops til the last day was just nonsense.

Evidently not, though.

Other not last day signings were Victor Palsson, Martin Scott, Matt Thornhill, Richie Towell, though they did come in towards the end of the window (post 20th Jan, IIRC).

I think Sodje on the 31st Jan was the only one that was actually announced on the last day of the window last year.

[Hibercelona]

Nonsense.

Well seeing as you seem to have a better understand than myself then perhaps you could care to fill me in on whats they're actually doing right now?

There is players on our doorstep that are far better than that dross and for anybody to try and suggest that they're beyond our budget is bull crap.

Like people have said "We pay the 4th highest wages in the SPL" and for what?

We should be looking at other players in the league who are proven at this level and who have the ability to at least keep us up.

[blackpoolhibs]

Well seeing as you seem to have a better understand than myself then perhaps you could care to fill me in on whats they're actually doing right now?

I'd imagine they are trying their hardest to get rid and bring in better players.

There is players on our doorstep that are far better than that dross and for anybody to try and suggest that they're beyond our budget is bull crap.

Who is suggesting we are not trying to bring in better players, and who thinks we bring in dross on purpose?

Like people have said "We pay the 4th highest wages in the SPL" and for what?

I do, and blame consecutive managers.

We should be looking at other players in the league who are proven at this level and who have the ability to at least keep us up.

Did you apply for the job after Calderclown was emptied? Maybe you should have, the club could do with these new radical ideas, i'm sure nobody has thought of them before?

[SquashedFrogg]

I notice we've been particularly bad since the TV cameras have been placed in the West. Get the cameras back in the East and watch the good times roll!

Poor Hughes and Caldererse never stood a chance with the cameras in the wrong place! :o)

I have often thought this. The new east should also have been equipped with pillars to help block the view.

Also, we should ban BBC Alba ever broadcasting at ER as I've never watched us win a match when they record our matches. :cb

[BEEJ]

Considering we played a new signing just yesterday, as well as announcing the signing of Graeme Smith at about a minute past midnight on 1st Jan a couple of years back, you'd think folk would maybe realise that the idea of the board sitting with their thumbs up their hoops til the last day was just nonsense.

Evidently not, though.
Matty, unfortunately these are the exceptions that prove the rule.


Other not last day signings were Victor Palsson, Martin Scott, Matt Thornhill, Richie Towell, though they did come in towards the end of the window (post 20th Jan, IIRC).

I think Sodje on the 31st Jan was the only one that was actually announced on the last day of the window last year.
'Last minute signings' was the phrase originally used. That could apply to signings made in the last week of the window, not simply the last day.

Figures show that in the last eight January transfer windows almost, 70% of our signings have been made in the last week of the window. The pattern does not follow a normal distribution - nothing like it.

However, I believe there will be more urgency this year, for obvious reasons.

[matty_f]

Matty, unfortunately these are the exceptions that prove the rule.


'Last minute signings' was the phrase originally used. That could apply to signings made in the last week of the window, not simply the last day.

Figures show that in the last eight January transfer windows almost, 70% of our signings have been made in the last week of the window. The pattern does not follow a normal distribution - nothing like it.

However, I believe there will be more urgency this year, for obvious reasons.


Think you're stretching it with the last minute meaning the final week, to be honest.

Last minute to me means final day (or after, as I think was the case with Vaz Te).

How does the timing of our January business compare with that of other clubs?

[BEEJ]

Think you're stretching it with the last minute meaning the final week, to be honest.

Last minute to me means final day (or after, as I think was the case with Vaz Te).
When your team is playing the way we were in January 2011 - another derby defeat, out the Cup to Ayr etc - and right now in January 2012, I would say that you need a couple of key signings in on day one and then the bulk of your transfer activity completed before the mid-point of the window.

Week 4 and beyond is definitely 'last minute' in my book.

All the more so when signings such as Thornhill once they arrive are not immediately ready to play a part in the first team due to injury / fitness issues - another 'problem factor' which Hibs seeem to encounter all too often.


How does the timing of our January business compare with that of other clubs?
Don't know. That would be a fascinating (but time-consuming) piece of research for someone to undertake. :greengrin

[matty_f]

When your team is playing the way we were in January 2011 - another derby defeat, out the Cup to Ayr etc - and right now in January 2012, I would say that you need a couple of key signings in on day one and then the bulk of your transfer activity completed before the mid-point of the window.

Week 4 and beyond is definitely 'last minute' in my book.

All the more so when signings such as Thornhill once they arrive are not immediately ready to play a part in the first team due to injury / fitness issues - another 'problem factor' which Hibs seeem to encounter all too often.


Don't know. That would be a fascinating (but time-consuming) piece of research for someone to undertake. :greengrin

A quick swatch at the BBC site showed that most January transfers are fairly heavily weighted towards the last few days of the window.

I agree in the current predicament we need players in asap, the thing we have to keep in mind is that in reality when there are other factors involved (selling clubs, clubs releasing players, agents, and players) it's not as simple as being able to get the players in on day one. I'm certain the club would love to finalise whatever deals they're working on quickly to get the team improved sharpish. Nobody is benefiting from it taking time.

I'm hoping for minimum 2 players in to the club in time to play on Saturday.

[BEEJ]

A quick swatch at the BBC site showed that most January transfers are fairly heavily weighted towards the last few days of the window.
Looking at the January 2011 transfers on there (for the whole of the UK) there are 204 listed up to and including 24th January and 182 listed after that - i.e. in the final week of the window.

That equates to 47% of all transfer activity in the last week of the January 2011 window - about two-thirds of Hibs' 69% record of recent seasons.


I'm hoping for minimum 2 players in to the club in time to play on Saturday.
I hope you're right. :agree: More chance of being so this year, I would suggest.

[IWasThere2016]

Err., I am repeatedly pointing out our financial position isn't all it is made out to be. My view is it should neveer have got to this. Resources spent on the wrong priorities in the wrong measures.


It certainly isnt.

But by that argument Rangers are a roaring success. As are Hearts for that matter.


What do you mean "as per"?

As for the second line please point out where I said that?

In Quote 1, I am talking about Hibs - not the Huns/Yams - and the lack of balance is our priorities and use of resources. As per, if the line towed is not RP's the alternative is compared to the Huns/Yams!?! WTF is that all about? Hence, yer talking pish as per.

[RIP]

While i can see we are losing money, like every team in the SPL bar maybe celtc.

How have we managed to build a new stand, build a new training complex and still provide every manager with more money to spend than most? I'd bet every club in the SPL would love a vision like that.

The only thing thats flawed, is their appointments as football managers. How much more should we spend before we can compete with every team bar the the old firm and the gimps?

Gary - there's nothing wrong with the vision. Our club simply isn't structured properly to deliver that vision.

Farmer may have enjoyed business success with Kwik-Fit but if they had been set up as badly as Hibs the last 4 years, they would have gone down the toilet before now. Imagine Kwik-Fit bringing in a new CEO every year who then replaces half or more of their executive team. Less than a year later the merrygoround starts again.

No strategy, no consistency, no morale, no success culture, panic recruitment, constant job insecurity, bad reputation, more difficult each year to recruit staff, customers constantly complaining, turnover on the wane, annual losses.

Are we really happy to leave the future of OUR club to the men in suits with the track record they've had the past 4 years?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Building for the future? If they had to rebuild the stand anyway, why build it so small that it "might" need to be scrapped and rebuilt again in a few years time? That's just one thought.

Scottish football doesnae have a future, its in constant decline.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Gary - there's nothing wrong with the vision. Our club simply isn't structured properly to deliver that vision.

Farmer may have enjoyed business success with Kwik-Fit but if they had been set up as badly as Hibs the last 4 years, they would have gone down the toilet before now. Imagine Kwik-Fit bringing in a new CEO every year who then replaces half or more of their executive team. Less than a year later the merrygoround starts again.

No strategy, no consistency, no morale, no success culture, panic recruitment, constant job insecurity, bad reputation, more difficult each year to recruit staff, customers constantly complaining, turnover on the wane, annual losses.

Are we really happy to leave the future of OUR club to the men in suits with the track record they've had the past 4 years?

I for one am not, and have fired the Board another email telling them just that...They must hate seeing my mail in their inbox

[Cropley10]

Are we really happy to leave the future of OUR club to the men in suits with the track record they've had the past 4 years?

No. So - what do we do to get rid of the men in suits? How do we change anything??

[Andy74]

I for one am not, and have fired the Board another email telling them just that...They must hate seeing my mail in their inbox

Doubt it. Won't take them too long to delete it.

[blackpoolhibs]

Gary - there's nothing wrong with the vision. Our club simply isn't structured properly to deliver that vision.

Farmer may have enjoyed business success with Kwik-Fit but if they had been set up as badly as Hibs the last 4 years, they would have gone down the toilet before now. Imagine Kwik-Fit bringing in a new CEO every year who then replaces half or more of their executive team. Less than a year later the merrygoround starts again.

No strategy, no consistency, no morale, no success culture, panic recruitment, constant job insecurity, bad reputation, more difficult each year to recruit staff, customers constantly complaining, turnover on the wane, annual losses.

Are we really happy to leave the future of OUR club to the men in suits with the track record they've had the past 4 years?

Thats just not true, it may not have worked but they do have a strategy and goals to meet. The bad results contribute to no morale, success culture or consistency. And you are another who is completely ignoring the FACT that we still spend more than most, while building for the future, you know having a strategy, a plan, a goal.:confused:

[Baldy Foghorn]

Doubt it. Won't take them too long to delete it.

Ouch......Got a response today though:greengrin

[RIP]

Are we really happy to leave the future of OUR club to the men in suits with the track record they've had the past 4 years?


No. So - what do we do to get rid of the men in suits? How do we change anything??

Nobody wants to 'get rid' - there's some good experience and skill there. I just want to change the mix. Instead of 100% administrators, marketeers and accountants, I'd like to see a football director, senior ex-player and 'shadow board' representatives in amongst them to achieve a better balance.


I for one am not, and have fired the Board another email telling them just that...They must hate seeing my mail in their inbox


Ouch......Got a response today though:greengrin

Fife likes you Steven - that's why! That's why I had to laugh at the jokers that slagged us off for going to the forum as being 'the usual suspects' or 'yes men'. Almost to a man or woman we were amongst their harshest critics and most frequent correspondents :agree:

[Kaiser1962]

Err., I am repeatedly pointing out our financial position isn't all it is made out to be. My view is it should neveer have got to this. Resources spent on the wrong priorities in the wrong measures.


It certainly isnt.


But by that argument Rangers are a roaring success. As are Hearts for that matter.


What a load of utter pish as per.

So are you seriously trying to tell us there is noting between Hibs and the Yams. What utter tosh!


I was agreeing with the bit in bold, that our "financial position isn't all it is made out to be". Its not.


The second part was that if you are judging on results on the field, the "core business", then Rangers are a success, as are the Yams to a degree. And there is a lot between Hibs and Hearts , never said there wasnt, but (on the field) this is a direct result that Hearts pay around double what we do.


What do you mean "as per"?

As for the second line please point out where I said that?


In Quote 1, I am talking about Hibs - not the Huns/Yams - and the lack of balance is our priorities and use of resources. As per, if the line towed is not RP's the alternative is compared to the Huns/Yams!?! WTF is that all about? Hence, yer talking pish as per.


I asked where I said there was nothing, or even suggested such, between Hibs and Hearts and you then select some posts and carefully leave out the one that you were referring to. Seriously?

Since Rangers are the champions are they successful in their core business? Or do you not want to talk about them :wink:

[IWasThere2016]

I asked where I said there was nothing, or even suggested such, between Hibs and Hearts and you then select some posts and carefully leave out the one that you were referring to. Seriously?

Since Rangers are the champions are they successful in their core business? Or do you not want to talk about them :wink:

You cannae serious be that thick! Look back the posts ffs - my original post is about Hibs. Only Hibs.

At no time, I am suggesting we can be champions but where we are is unacceptable. Wholly unacceptable - and my posts is that the mismatch between the spend on matters other than the team and the team have been unbalanced.

FTAOD, I was talking about Hibs - and only Hibs. You mentioned the Yams/Huns.

[Kaiser1962]

You cannae serious be that thick! Look back the posts ffs - my original post is about Hibs. Only Hibs.

At no time, I am suggesting we can be champions but where we are is unacceptable. Wholly unacceptable - and my posts is that the mismatch between the spend on matters other than the team and the team have been unbalanced.

FTAOD, I was talking about Hibs - and only Hibs. You mentioned the Yams/Huns.


Where did I say or suggest there was nothing between Hibs and the Yams then?

[blackpoolhibs]

So we should not have built anything, just spent much more than our competitors to guarantee 3rd or maybe even 4th place. Just spending a wee bit more is not enough now it seems?

[Cropley10]

So we should not have built anything, just spent much more than our competitors to guarantee 3rd or maybe even 4th place. Just spending a wee bit more is not enough now it seems?

Or perhaps someone might have kept half an eye on the state of the team, say a Performance Director, and thought hang on, we're a bit short at cover at Centre Half, or at Centre Mid once Liam and Kevin leave, or etc. etc.

[Kaiser1962]

Or perhaps someone might have kept half an eye on the state of the team, say a Performance Director, and thought hang on, we're a bit short at cover at Centre Half, or at Centre Mid once Liam and Kevin leave, or etc. etc.

Thats a fair point.

[blackpoolhibs]

Or perhaps someone might have kept half an eye on the state of the team, say a Performance Director, and thought hang on, we're a bit short at cover at Centre Half, or at Centre Mid once Liam and Kevin leave, or etc. etc.

The managers job 100%, crap managers nowt to do with spending money on the stand or training ground.

[Cropley10]

The managers job 100%, crap managers nowt to do with spending money on the stand or training ground.

Except we go through a manager every year. Did Caldo actually care?

[blackpoolhibs]

Except we go through a manager every year. Did Caldo actually care?

A clown if ever there was one, a terrible appointment by Petrie. He was backed though, just as Hughes was and Mixu. Its there job to make the side better, and given they spent more than most should have had better players and better results.

Clubs with smaller resourses have done better than us, it can be done, and they have not built stands and training centres.

[Jones28]

Our squad is poor overall, do we trust PF to bring in quality?

His intent with Doyle and us being linked with Championship players seems to say we want quality, in Pat we trust :agree:

[Cropley10]

His intent with Doyle and us being linked with Championship players seems to say we want quality, in Pat we trust :agree:

Is the Championship player McPake?