Would you be in favour of Summer Football

[GreenCastle]

This seems to be brought up every winter but seems with the SPL struggling right now financially and with crowds - not to mention games still being postponed even with undersoil heating - is it time to change the structure of our season

Current Leagues I know of play through Summer - feel free to add

USA
Russia
Ireland
Norway
Faroes
Sweden
Finland


Pros -

Cheaper for clubs - less costs during the winter with heating and lights
No fixture congestion - currently many games are crammed in during winter months
Easier for fans to travel
Better playing surfaces / pitches = quality better ?
Opportunities to attract more tourists ? Edinburgh Festival etc
Would attract more youths to games? Parents willing to take them when weather was more manageable
Cons -

Different to the majority of world football calender
International Tournaments (though only last a month or so)
Complications with transfer windows
Change to the status quo / tradition
Discuss please....

[ManBearPig]

Common sense dictates that we should play in summer. Would make more sense all round the transfer window and european games could cause some problems, but nothing compared with all the problems we already face in winter. Just the thought of a nice sunny day to go to ER would make the performances of late easier to swallow.

Would also help if the boys clubs etc followed suit, my son's games are constantly cancelled even with all weather pitches. This would hopefully eventually help in bringing through young talent.

[mca]

"Summer" Football - but we would need to move to another country :confused:

[Andy74]

The only game I recall being cancelled recently was in the summer - due to heavy rain. The only others I can recall that should have been cancelled were also in the summer, due to heavy rain.

We now play during July and end in late May so we'd only be talking about adding June and possibly missing one month in the winter. When would you time that to avoid the cold and dark? What odds would it really make? Some are talking as if we have 8 months of endless sunshine!

Interesting that in Ireland the crowds stayed round about the same.

[Mickey Edwards]

The only game I recall being cancelled recently was in the summer - due to heavy rain. The only others I can recall that should have been cancelled were also in the summer, due to heavy rain.

We now play during July and end in late May so we'd only be talking about adding June and possibly missing one month in the winter. When would you time that to avoid the cold and dark? What odds would it really make? Some are talking as if we have 8 months of endless sunshine!Interesting that in Ireland the crowds stayed round about the same.

No , but we have 8 months of grass growth

[TheEastTerrace]

Pretty sure the Russian league is planning to move the season in line with the rest of Europe.

I still think it is the quality of football and the sheer boredom of the SPL that are the two main drivers for poor crowds.

[marinello59]

The only game I recall being cancelled recently was in the summer - due to heavy rain. The only others I can recall that should have been cancelled were also in the summer, due to heavy rain.

We now play during July and end in late May so we'd only be talking about adding June and possibly missing one month in the winter. When would you time that to avoid the cold and dark? What odds would it really make? Some are talking as if we have 8 months of endless sunshine!

Interesting that in Ireland the crowds stayed round about the same.

If only our crowds were staying about the same, fans are deserting in droves. Standards have improved by a fair bit over there. Their clubs are doing better in Europe and more talent is being produced for their International side. . Summer fitba is a no brainer for me. Better weather and better pitches means better football. Given the ultra conservative mindset of a large number of Scottish football fans and our small minded administrators it is unlikely to happen here any time soon though.

[Andy74]

No , but we have 8 months of grass growth

Okay, so just adding June to the season and taking out one winter month will have a big effect on the grass, and sufficient that it's worth changing the traditional season which has lasted over a hundred years?

I don't really buy that. I think its something that sounds great when you think about summer football until you actually analyse what that means in Scotland. Nothing really.

[Andy74]

If only our crowds were staying about the same, fans are deserting in droves. Standards have improved by a fair bit over there. Their clubs are doing better in Europe and more talent is being produced for their International side. . Summer fitba is a no brainer for me. Better weather and better pitches means better football. Given the ultra conservative mindset of a large number of Scottish football fans and our small minded administrators it is unlikely to happen here any time soon though.

So after over a hundred years it's playing over a winter month and not an extra summer month that's chasing crowds away?

Nah, doesn't add up for me.

[marinello59]

So after over a hundred years it's playing over a winter month and not an extra summer month that's chasing crowds away?

Nah, doesn't add up for me.

You have ignored my main point which is that standards would improve.
Your 'hundred' years comment is just the type of comfort blanket too many people involved in our game wrap round themselves. The fact it's always been that way is meaningless when our game is dying a slow painful death unless we do make revolutionary change.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think it is necessary simply to have our teams playing in Europe. When Shamrock Rovers are in the group stages of the UEFA League in front of Scottish teams, it tells us all we need to know.

[Sir David Gray]

The only game I recall being cancelled recently was in the summer - due to heavy rain. The only others I can recall that should have been cancelled were also in the summer, due to heavy rain.

We now play during July and end in late May so we'd only be talking about adding June and possibly missing one month in the winter. When would you time that to avoid the cold and dark? What odds would it really make? Some are talking as if we have 8 months of endless sunshine!

Interesting that in Ireland the crowds stayed round about the same.

Totally agree with this.

I don't think that our summers are good enough, nor are they reliable enough, to warrant this move taking place.

Temperatures in Scotland in July and August are quite often barely any better than they are in October and even, as was the case this year, November.

[iwasthere1972]

Totally agree with this.

I don't think that our summers are good enough, nor are they reliable enough, to warrant this move taking place.

Temperatures in Scotland in July and August are quite often barely any better than they are in October and even, as was the case this year, November.

Nothing to do with matches clashing with Wimbledon then. :wink:

[Andy74]

You have ignored my main point which is that standards would improve.
Your 'hundred' years comment is just the type of comfort blanket too many people involved in our game wrap round themselves. The fact it's always been that way is meaningless when our game is dying a slow painful death unless we do make revolutionary change.

No, I think you'd need to expalin to me how switching a summer for a winter month would lead to standards improving.

Just sounds like talk to me.

Standards used to be okay also playing during the same months.

I still think this theory is based on some fanciful notion that this would somehow extend the Scottish summer.

As I've said we already play up to mid May and start in July.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Totally agree with this.

I don't think that our summers are good enough, nor are they reliable enough, to warrant this move taking place.

Temperatures in Scotland in July and August are quite often barely any better than they are in October and even, as was the case this year, November.

They are still better than the temperatures in December and January though.


No, I think you'd need to expalin to me how switching a summer for a winter month would lead to standards improving.

Just sounds like talk to me.

Standards used to be okay also playing during the same months.

I still think this theory is based on some fanciful notion that this would somehow extend the Scottish summer.

As I've said we already play up to mid May and start in July.

Yes, we used to reach the semi finals of European competitions. However, using the performance of teams from other leagues as a benchmark, it is evident we have fallen by the wayside.

Part of the problem is that our clubs have to play preliminary games against teams that are half way through their season. They are going at full tilt, whilst our lot are still getting into gear.

It means that we can't qualify for money making ties against European teams. This means there is less to invest in the clubss, and so the downward spiral continues.

Weather isn't what's keeping people away from the games it's the lack of excitement. During the close season, we could start still have short tournaments, such as the League Cup, and have room for traditional New Year's derbies.

Imagine how much more intreresting things would be if we could pit our wits against the likes of Benfica, Ajax and Udinese, for arguments sake. As things stand, I can't be bothered switching the telly on to see some of the matches that are shown.

The Scottish League is like one of those social clubs that is still run by the same committee that ran it 30 years ago. They refuse to move with the times, and wonder why their membership is dwindling. Backed up by a group of diehards, they can't see that there is something fundamentaly wrong.

[marinello59]

No, I think you'd need to expalin to me how switching a summer for a winter month would lead to standards improving.

Just sounds like talk to me.

Standards used to be okay also playing during the same months.

I still think this theory is based on some fanciful notion that this would somehow extend the Scottish summer.

As I've said we already play up to mid May and start in July.

One month? :confused: If we followed the Irish model it would be the three months which generally have the worst weather that we would no longer play in. There are a growing number of coaches in senior football calling for this change as standards will improve. They certainly know more than me. But maybe not you. :greengrin

[Andy74]

They are still better than the temperatures in December and January though.



Yes, we used to reach the semi finals of European competitions. However, using the performance of teams from other leagues as a benchmark, it is evident we have fallen by the wayside.

Part of the problem is that our clubs have to play preliminary games against teams that are half way through their season. They are going at full tilt, whilst our lot are still getting into gear.

It means that we can't qualify for money making ties against European teams. This means there is less to invest in the clubss, and so the downward spiral continues.

Weather isn't what's keeping people away from the games it's the lack of excitement. During the close season, we could start still have short tournaments, such as the League Cup, and have room for traditional New Year's derbies.

The Scottish League is like one of those social clubs that is still run by the same committee that ran it 30 years ago. They refuse to move with the times, and wonder why their membership is dwindling. Backed up by a group of diehards, they can't see that there is something fundamentaly wrong.

That's more about the timings of when competitions start - that's a bit different from this thought that magically the pitches are all going to beautiful and filled with silky footballers with the sun on thir backs playing to crowds in their t shirts flooding in to get a sun tan at ER. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

That's more about the timings of when competitions start - that's a bit different from this thought that magically the pitches are all going to beautiful and filled with silky footballers with the sun on thir backs playing to crowds in their t shirts flooding in to get a sun tan at ER. :greengrin

Yeah, I've never fancied the idea of picnicing at Easter Road. I did enjoy playing Maribor on that balmy night though. It was a pleasure going to the match, and remained so for the first 35 seconds.

[PaulSmith]

Yes.

[Hibbyradge]

Friday night football in the summer might be a winner. :agree:

[Saorsa]

Yes for me, cannae be ersed sitting about on freezing nights in pishy weather for midweek games, particularly when watching pishy fitba.

[iwasthere1972]

I believe that the poll results speak for themselves and although it's still early I can't see the percentages changing that much.

YES 80%
NO 20%

[soupy]

100% YES, I'm sick of freezing my hee haws off watching dross fitba, at least when its a bit warmer its mire bearable :-)

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

If it just ends up watching the same dross but in shirt sleeves, I don't see the point in changiing. I would go and watch Hibs in the North Pole if we had a decent enough side.

[Mickey Edwards]

Okay, so just adding June to the season and taking out one winter month will have a big effect on the grass, and sufficient that it's worth changing the traditional season which has lasted over a hundred years?

I don't really buy that. I think its something that sounds great when you think about summer football until you actually analyse what that means in Scotland. Nothing really.

please buy it and convince others to buy it due to 2 facts.

a}undeniably the surfaces will be consistently better as grass will grow during the bulk of the season. Grass does not grow below 6 celsius.

This will give advantage to the passing technical game . By avoiding December Jan Feb, pitches will have a chance to recover between games because the grass will grow.

b}athletes can train harder and practice for longer in warmer temperatures with longer hours of daylight.

The players will be better prepared in training and they will be quicker during games. Track athletic records are set in warmer temperatures. Many sportsmen include warm weather training in their calendar to optimise performance . Nobody would travel to Scotland for a warm weather training camp but the players have a better chance of improving standards by operating in warmer temperatures.

May , June and July need to be included as the height of our season, possibly with 2 games per week. Of course the weather is not uniformly excellent at those times but the temperatures are warmer in general ; in fact Scottish summer weather I would argue is the perfect temperature for football usually between 10 to 15 celsius.

For the moneymen festive period tournaments , exhibition games in Dubai or any other imaginitive aggressive marketing strategies are possible.
Scottish football has been inferior to most other nations virtually since the WW2 and possibly was before that although it was difficult to make comparisons then ; I am not particularly impressed by the 100 year old tradition of which you speak although it is interesting to read about it.

[hibs0666]

Summer football is a total and utter no-brainer for Scotland.

[greenlex]

No.
Fittba - winter
Gowf - summer.

Winter is crap enough without having nae fitba to go to.

[Alfred E Newman]

I can think of a hundred better things to do on a summers afternoon in May, June, or July than watch football. This fanciful idea that adding the month of June to our season would suddenly transfom scottish football is nonsense. There is more wrong with the game up here than that. Surely it is far better for the season to start and finish in the summer months than start and finish in the winter months. A switch to summer football certainly would put us on a par with those great leagues like Ireland, the Faroes and Finland and relegate us once and for all to the backwaters of European football.

[frazeHFC]

Summer football? No thanks.

Summer is my time for golf and holidays, not football.

[Franck is God]

I'm quite frankly stunned that we still play football in winter and those that believe that we want summer football so we can play on bright sunny days in June are mistaken.

Sitting in the freezing cold is simply not a pleasant experience, between March and October the temperature rarely gets below 10c which means the grass is always growing and yes there are rainy days in the summer but far fewer than in winter and because it's warmer it dries a lot faster.

No brainer to me.

[greenlex]

I can think of a hundred better things to do on a summers afternoon in May, June, or July than watch football. This fanciful idea that adding the month of June to our season would suddenly transfom scottish football is nonsense. There is more wrong with the game up here than that. Surely it is far better for the season to start and finish in the summer months than start and finish in the winter months. A swich to summer football certainly would put us on a par with those great leagues like Ireland, the Faroes and Finland and relegate us once and for all to the backwaters of European football.
:agree: When I was a lad Scitland qualified for international tournament finals.
Celtc won the European Cup. rangers won the Cup winners Cup. The Tornadoes won Cups. Then a wee but later Aberdeen won the Cup winners Cup and the Arabs di well in Europe.
All of the above was done in weather conditions no different today and on pitches that were worse than today's technological wonders. How did they manage that in the Winter?

I don't think changing to the Summer will change anything.

What has the weather been like he at few Summers? Wet and windy. Hardly ideal footballing conditions.
Pre Season at Raith. Abandoned because of the weather.
Vetcra? At ER. Total farce that shouldn't have been played.

[erin go bragh]

please buy it and convince others to buy it due to 2 facts.

a}undeniably the surfaces will be consistently better as grass will grow during the bulk of the season. Grass does not grow below 6 celsius.

This will give advantage to the passing technical game . By avoiding December Jan Feb, pitches will have a chance to recover between games because the grass will grow.

b}athletes can train harder and practice for longer in warmer temperatures with longer hours of daylight.

The players will be better prepared in training and they will be quicker during games. Track athletic records are set in warmer temperatures. Many sportsmen include warm weather training in their calendar to optimise performance . Nobody would travel to Scotland for a warm weather training camp but the players have a better chance of improving standards by operating in warmer temperatures.

May , June and July need to be included as the height of our season, possibly with 2 games per week. Of course the weather is not uniformly excellent at those times but the temperatures are warmer in general ; in fact Scottish summer weather I would argue is the perfect temperature for football usually between 10 to 15 celsius.

For the moneymen festive period tournaments , exhibition games in Dubai or any other imaginitive aggressive marketing strategies are possible.
Scottish football has been inferior to most other nations virtually since the WW2 and possibly was before that although it was difficult to make comparisons then ; I am not particularly impressed by the 100 year old tradition of which you speak although it is interesting to read about it.

This :agree:


ggtth

[Saorsa]

No.
Fittba - winter
Gowf - summer.

Winter is crap enough without having nae fitba to go to.Me freezing in the winter so you can play golf in the summer disnae sound like a very good reason tae me.


I can think of a hundred better things to do on a summers afternoon in May, June, or July than watch football. This fanciful idea that adding the month of June to our season would suddenly transfom scottish football is nonsense. There is more wrong with the game up here than that. Surely it is far better for the season to start and finish in the summer months than start and finish in the winter months. A switch to summer football certainly would put us on a par with those great leagues like Ireland, the Faroes and Finland and relegate us once and for all to the backwaters of European football.I can think of things I can do in the winter that dinnae involve sitting in the freezing cauld with rain/snow driving in tae they big open stands. Games continually get put off now at the first inches of snaw on the streets whether the pitches are playable or not. March to November sounds good tae me missing out the three worst months of weather in this country.

Or the back water of Russia thats' league is now ranked 7th in Europe by UEFA


When I was a lad Scitland qualified for international tournament finals.
Celtc won the European Cup. rangers won the Cup winners Cup. The Tornadoes won Cups. Then a wee but later Aberdeen won the Cup winners Cup and the Arabs di well in Europe.
All of the above was done in weather conditions no different today and on pitches that were worse than today's technological wonders. How did they manage that in the Winter?

I don't think changing to the Summer will change anything.

What has the weather been like he at few Summers? Wet and windy. Hardly ideal footballing conditions.
Pre Season at Raith. Abandoned because of the weather.
Vetcra? At ER. Total farce that shouldn't have been played.Too bad now though that games get called because of the snaw conditions on the streets/roads whether the pitches are playable or not.

I'd rather have warm, wet and windy than cauld, wet and windy

[greenlex]

Me freezing in the winter so you can play golf in the summer disnae sound like a very good reason tae me.

I can think of things I can do in the winter that dinnae involve sitting in the freezing cauld with rain/snow driving in tae they big open stands. Games continually get put off now at the first inches of snaw on the streets whether the pitches are playable or not. March to November sounds good tae me missing out the three worst months of weather in this country.

Or the back water of Russia thats' league is now ranked 7th in Europe by UEFA

Too bad now though that games get called because of the snaw conditions on the streets/roads whether the pitches are playable or not.

I'd rather have warm, wet and windy than cauld, wet and windy
Ye dinner go much now anyway ya bam.:greengrin

[Saorsa]

Ye dinner go much now anyway ya bam.:greengrinMust be getting mixed up with somebody else, I go all the time (12th consecutive ST this season) or I did up until this season. This season I have paid 400 quid for a season ticket but havnae made a single game because of health reasons, no because I dinnae want tae go and I'll be back as soon as I can.

[GreenOnions]

The only game I recall being cancelled recently was in the summer - due to heavy rain. The only others I can recall that should have been cancelled were also in the summer, due to heavy rain.

We now play during July and end in late May so we'd only be talking about adding June and possibly missing one month in the winter. When would you time that to avoid the cold and dark? What odds would it really make? Some are talking as if we have 8 months of endless sunshine!

Interesting that in Ireland the crowds stayed round about the same.

I think that's a little misleading Andy.

First of all late May to mid/late July is pretty much two months rather than just one.

Secondly - AFAIK the main reasons we are starting the season so early now are because of the problems associated with our winter season - i.e. we are insufficiently prepared for early European rounds and to avoid later fixture congestion due to cancelled games in mid-winter.

Both these problems would be avoided if we played summer football would they not - meaning that the length of the season could be a little shorter - perhaps nearer nine months than eleven?

[Sir David Gray]

Nothing to do with matches clashing with Wimbledon then. :wink:

Actually, you've made a really important point there.

The summer months are used by many people (not just football fans, obviously) to do things that they don't do at other times of the year and the football gets put to one side.

I can't see that many people putting off their two week break to the south of Spain or their trips to see their favourites musicians at top festivals just because the SPL's getting played in June.


They are still better than the temperatures in December and January though.

Yes they are, you're quite right there.

However, at the moment the season is run from late July/early August until middle-end of May. That's means that the SPL is played over 9.5-10 months of the year.

If we moved to beginning the season at the start of March, we wouldn't be finishing until around December time. OK, we would be missing out the whole of January and February and maybe a bit of December but the season would be due to finish just around the time when the bad weather traditionally begins and then we could be looking at the most important matches of the season being postponed and the season having to be extended and then we're back to square one.

The bad weather in Scotland can arrive any time between November and February, it's so variable and, as I said earlier, you can't rely on it at all.

[greenlex]

Must be getting mixed up with somebody else, I go all the time (12th consecutive ST this season) or I did up until this season. This season I have paid 400 quid for a season ticket but havnae made a single game because of health reasons, no because I dinnae want tae go and I'll be back as soon as I can.

Please accept my apologies J. I knew you had Season Ticket and didnt go. I assumed it was because of the pishness on show and you were a conscientious objector. Hope you are better soon and get back to watching the abbage.:agree:

[Saorsa]

Please accept my apologies J. I knew you had Season Ticket and didnt go. I assumed it was because of the pishness on show and you were a conscientious objector. Hope you are better soon and get back to watching the abbage.:agree:Nae worries :aok:

[Alfred E Newman]

I think that's a little misleading Andy.

First of all late May to mid/late July is pretty much two months rather than just one.
Secondly - AFAIK the main reasons we are starting the season so early now are because of the problems associated with our winter season - i.e. we are insufficiently prepared for early European rounds and to avoid later fixture congestion due to cancelled games in mid-winter.

Both these problems would be avoided if we played summer football would they not - meaning that the length of the season could be a little shorter - perhaps nearer nine months than eleven?

So a summer league close season would be late December/mid February?

[darwenhibby]

Summer football would stop us competing with the EPL for tv revenue.
It would become an attarctive product on its own and during the summer the games might get played at 4.00pm on a Sunday, not 12.00 sunday morning or 6.05 Sunday evening as in the old days.

Training at East Mains might not get abandoned because of freaky weather conditions.

Also meant to mention there is less chance of the trains disrupted in the summer for out of town supporters.

[Sir David Gray]

Summer football would stop us competing with the EPL for tv revenue.
It would become an attarctive product on its own and during the summer the games might get played at 4.00pm on a Sunday, not 12.00 sunday morning or 6.05 Sunday evening as in the old days.

Training at East Mains might not get abandoned because of freaky weather conditions.

Also meant to mention there is less chance of the trains disrupted in the summer for out of town supporters.

But instead of starting their pre-season training in late June/early July, they would be coming back in late January/early February when they'll be unlikely to be able to use any outdoor facilities and it is more likely to be abandoned, in the way that it was last Thursday.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Call me a traditionalist but I like watching football in the winter, I'd especially miss watching football during the Christmas/New Year period if we went to Summer football. Assuming the Yams survive, would the New Year derby be replaced by a Mid Summers derby? :dunno:

[Alfred E Newman]

Summer football would stop us competing with the EPL for tv revenue.
It would become an attarctive product on its own and during the summer the games might get played at 4.00pm on a Sunday, not 12.00 sunday morning or 6.05 Sunday evening as in the old days.Training at East Mains might not get abandoned because of freaky weather conditions.

Also meant to mention there is less chance of the trains disrupted in the summer for out of town supporters.

Thats nonsense. You are talking as if all our league games would be played during the English close season.

[darwenhibby]

But instead of starting their pre-season training in late June/early July, they would be coming back in late January/early February when they'll be unlikely to be able to use any outdoor facilities and it is more likely to be abandoned, in the way that it was last Thursday.


Don't they normally go away for preseason.

Spain Italy Portugal would be ok around about then.

The biggest argument used to be we would miss the New Year game.

I could do without it if the whole product of Scottish football was to improve.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Wont even bother with my usual drum beating on my favourite subject. Just ........... YES

[bigkenny]

The key reason for campaigning for summer football must be driven by an acceptance that football in Scotland is in terminal decline and therefore radical action is needed. The first step to rehabilitation is admitting that we have a problem before decided what the treatment is.

Do we have a serious problem? Well, 1974, 1978, 1982, 1986 and 1990 all say our national team qualify for the elite tournament - the Fifa World Cup Finals. We skipped 1994 and were back in 1998 and have never returned. We did make Euro 92 and Euro 96, but since then we have been largely anonymous. We failed to progress in all of these tournaments, but were drawn against Brazil in 4/6 World Cup Groups and on other occasions faced tough draws. Had the Group Stage Draws been kinder, we may well have seen progress in 1974, 1982 and 1990. But recognising our failure to progress even beyond the qualifiers now, can we agree that we have a problem?

Furthermore, we must also identify that (if we do have a problem) then what is the root cause to the problem. Note three factors:

1. Since the early 80's, only two teams have contested the Scottish League Championship, and over that period these two clubs have out-earned and out-spent all of their rivals at a level of 500% to 1000%. Attendance at matches outwith these two clubs has sunk so severely in the past 40 years that now more people attend church in Scotland on a Sunday than go to a football match in the same weekend, and we ain't talking about religious revival here. This disappearance in the fan base has suffocated the resources of football clubs trying to complete on a level playing field.

2. Since the 1970's participation in sports in general and football in particular has declined as a pastime. Scotland's Health is never out of the news due to obesity, heart disease, alcohol abuse/binge drinking and dependency on processed foods such as ready meals with high salt content and often high fat levels - over and above the "traditional" Scottish diet. Availability of other means of entertainment has taken away from participation in exercise and we as a nation are over weight yet poorly nourished, spoilt for choice but rarely active. And access to football has reduced, with many, many, many public fields and pitches removed and redeveloped while street safety has discouraged casual football in streets and roads. Look up "Fifty Pitches" in Glasgow as an indicator.

3. The change in emphasis in the game over the course of the 20th century has turned football on its head. When we won the cup (yes - 1902) the typical formation (a new thing!) was a 2-3-5 and with that was a focus on "endeavour", "bravery" as virtues while "craft" and "cunning" were frowned on. From that, through the W-M of the Famous Five era to the Catenaccio, 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-5-1 and so on we now have a complex, tactical, skill based game that is de facto world wide and we no longer are competent with our global peers at this aspect of our game.

To resolve it, we need to do more than just move to summer football, but we should recognise that summer football is potentially part of the solution.

When the season finishes in mid May, we leave the pitches empty for the 7 week period that Scotland enjoys its best weather. We then reconvene in July and August, disregarding the fact that July and August are Central Scotland's wettest months - remember the InterToto call offs? That means we lose 7 weekends that are statically likely to be well suited to the slow short-passing game that we esteem in the east side of Edinburgh, when not only (as JC said) is the ball round, but the pitch it rolls on is flat.

There are problems with summer football too, I don't deny. When does the grass "recover"? When do we schedule our elite Cup Final? What about the World Cups and Euro Championships and what would FIFA allow? But look at the way countries have progressed when they have embraced summer football, and recognised the appeal.

So. Yes!

[Sir David Gray]

Don't they normally go away for preseason.

Spain Italy Portugal would be ok around about then.

The biggest argument used to be we would miss the New Year game.

I could do without it if the whole product of Scottish football was to improve.

Clubs do quite often go away for pre-season to these sorts of countries but all these nations are playing league games in January and February (when the proposed pre-season would be taking place in Scotland) so they would be unlikely to be able to play any friendlies against teams from those countries.

There would be nothing to stop them from going there to do a bit of training but whilst it's certainly going to be milder in southern Europe in January and February than it is in Scotland, it would hardly be warm weather training, even if it is in Rome, Madrid or Lisbon.

They would need to go somewhere like the southern USA, South Africa or Australia to get really good weather at that time of year.

[Hibercelona]

About every 6 months or so we see one of these threads on here.

You'll always get about 80% saying that they're all for it. People aren't just suddenly going to change their minds.

It won't happen though. Too many players would whinge about the idea IMO.

[heretoday]

Yes - I've changed my mind.

[H18sry]

With all the postponements we have in Scotland through the winter, is it not about time we started our season in March and ended it it November, with a break if required for the month/6weeks of a major championship, The Champions league and Europa cup qualifiers start as early as June and end in Nov/Dec then restart in late Feb but very rarely are any of our teams still in it past Christmas . When our teams that have to play qualifiers early, we end up playing teams half way through there season and more often than not Scottish teams struggle and our co-efficient plummet's,so in that way it can only help us.

International Qualifiers stop from November until March so that won't be a problem, We would not have to compete with other big leagues for TV coverage so that would also be a bonus,what are your thoughts.

[Franck is God]

something someone said on a previous thread regarding the length of the season being around 9 months, most of the midweeks at the beginning of each season need to be held free for euro competitions and league cup, if the start of our season was say mid March then realistically we could be playing league games midweek in the summer.

After around ten matches the fitness conditioning is done so playing two games per week for a six week period before the euro qualifiers start in July would be no issue at all and shorten the season by a month at least so a season starting at the beginning of March and ending at the end of October is perfectly realistic.

[GreenCastle]

About every 6 months or so we see one of these threads on here.

You'll always get about 80% saying that they're all for it. People aren't just suddenly going to change their minds.

It won't happen though. Too many players would whinge about the idea IMO.

Don't think the players would whinge if they were getting paid and were playing in better weather rather than the Aberdeen cold in December :agree:

Seems many want the change from the poll.

I think again we have to look at the league and ask how can we improve the product - what will bring the fans back and how. Improving the experience and making it easier to attend would help - I know several put off in Winter due to driving / trains not running etc.

The season I would propose would be from March till Nov. Pre-season could take place in a warmer climate (I like the pre-season tournament ideas abroad - would possibly raise profile of the club but could cost quite a bit).

Players train at this time of the year anyway so January to March in Scotland shouldn't be a major issue.

The real issues you have is changing the mentality - I know the womens game in Scotland play March till November. I have heard that the youth set ups may be going this way soon also.

The people at the SFA who seem to be stuck in their ways would need to come round to the idea as seeing stadiums becoming more and more empty something has to be done to change the experience for the fan who are the ones paying to watch it.

You can say that Scotland doesn't have a summer but that's just non sense as although we aren't in a perfect climate the records show temperatures are higher. :greengrin

[Alfred E Newman]

The key reason for campaigning for summer football must be driven by an acceptance that football in Scotland is in terminal decline and therefore radical action is needed. The first step to rehabilitation is admitting that we have a problem before decided what the treatment is.

Do we have a serious problem? Well, 1974, 1978, 1982, 1986 and 1990 all say our national team qualify for the elite tournament - the Fifa World Cup Finals. We skipped 1994 and were back in 1998 and have never returned. We did make Euro 92 and Euro 96, but since then we have been largely anonymous. We failed to progress in all of these tournaments, but were drawn against Brazil in 4/6 World Cup Groups and on other occasions faced tough draws. Had the Group Stage Draws been kinder, we may well have seen progress in 1974, 1982 and 1990. But recognising our failure to progress even beyond the qualifiers now, can we agree that we have a problem?

Furthermore, we must also identify that (if we do have a problem) then what is the root cause to the problem. Note three factors:

1. Since the early 80's, only two teams have contested the Scottish League Championship, and over that period these two clubs have out-earned and out-spent all of their rivals at a level of 500% to 1000%. Attendance at matches outwith these two clubs has sunk so severely in the past 40 years that now more people attend church in Scotland on a Sunday than go to a football match in the same weekend, and we ain't talking about religious revival here. This disappearance in the fan base has suffocated the resources of football clubs trying to complete on a level playing field.

2. Since the 1970's participation in sports in general and football in particular has declined as a pastime. Scotland's Health is never out of the news due to obesity, heart disease, alcohol abuse/binge drinking and dependency on processed foods such as ready meals with high salt content and often high fat levels - over and above the "traditional" Scottish diet. Availability of other means of entertainment has taken away from participation in exercise and we as a nation are over weight yet poorly nourished, spoilt for choice but rarely active. And access to football has reduced, with many, many, many public fields and pitches removed and redeveloped while street safety has discouraged casual football in streets and roads. Look up "Fifty Pitches" in Glasgow as an indicator.

3. The change in emphasis in the game over the course of the 20th century has turned football on its head. When we won the cup (yes - 1902) the typical formation (a new thing!) was a 2-3-5 and with that was a focus on "endeavour", "bravery" as virtues while "craft" and "cunning" were frowned on. From that, through the W-M of the Famous Five era to the Catenaccio, 4-2-4, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-5-1 and so on we now have a complex, tactical, skill based game that is de facto world wide and we no longer are competent with our global peers at this aspect of our game.

To resolve it, we need to do more than just move to summer football, but we should recognise that summer football is potentially part of the solution.

When the season finishes in mid May, we leave the pitches empty for the 7 week period that Scotland enjoys its best weather. We then reconvene in July and August, disregarding the fact that July and August are Central Scotland's wettest months - remember the InterToto call offs? That means we lose 7 weekends that are statically likely to be well suited to the slow short-passing game that we esteem in the east side of Edinburgh, when not only (as JC said) is the ball round, but the pitch it rolls on is flat.

There are problems with summer football too, I don't deny. When does the grass "recover"? When do we schedule our elite Cup Final? What about the World Cups and Euro Championships and what would FIFA allow? But look at the way countries have progressed when they have embraced summer football, and recognised the appeal.So. Yes!
And they are?

[bigkenny]

And they are?

Russia (12th)
Republic of Ireland (21st)
Norway (25th)
USA (34th)
but not
Finland (88th)

(FIFA World Rankings)
Scotland (49th)

[IberianHibernian]

We already have summer football - league and cup not finishing till end of May and friendlies and European qualifiers in early July . Think it was better when league finished at end of April and cup final day was first Saturday of May with no competitive games till August - players and fans got a decent rest ( mentally and physically ) and looked forward to new season . Now with blanket coverage of football on telly there`s no real close season and inevitably boredom sets in . Every year on hibs.net there are a few complaints in June from folk who don`t know what to do with their free Saturdays but they`ll be a tiny minority especially now that Saturday 3 pm has lost it`s importance with so many matches played at other times and / or days . In winter there are lots of alternatives to going to football and in summer almost all the same plus lots more ( if summer football is introduced in Scotland would suggest evening kickoffs from June to September ) . Too many matches in Scotland at present - League Cup should be scrapped or return to days when it was finished before Christmas and league format changed to reduce number of games .

[Steve-O]

Russia (12th)
Republic of Ireland (21st)
Norway (25th)
USA (34th)
but not
Finland (88th)

(FIFA World Rankings)
Scotland (49th)

Don't forget Australia - 22nd.

http://www.fifa.com/worldranking/rankingtable/index.html

They are another one to add to the list - A-League is played over the summer months here. Good fun being able to go to the fitba in your shorts, sit in the sun, and drink beer :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I haven't seen anyone on this thread say that Scottish Football is any good. We have to look for solutions, and we have to think differently. Although we invented the game, we are very poor at learning from other small countries.

IMO, in 2011 people are more used to their comforts than they were in 1961. They would rather stay in during winter. It's not just football that suffers from that, pubs are a lot busier on summer nights than they are in January.

If football is to remain an entertainment, rather than the last bastion of a bygone working class, it has to be where the people are. Otherwise it will be as relevant as bear baiting or bare knuckle boxing in 50 years' time.

[Forza Fred]

You can add Australiatot the list of countries where football is played in the summer.

Its not a 'novel' thing that football is played in the summer..its more a steadfastly European thing.

I was watching the Aberdeen v Hibs game this morning, and I remarked to my missus that someone from Australia simply wouldnt understa'nd why someone would subject themsleves to pay 23 quid to sit in freezing conditions', outdoors, with snow coming down, just to watch a pretty crap fitba match.

And judging by the St Jhonstone v Aberdeen quoted midweek crowd, very few are now willing to do it with the same relish as they once did.

I really think teh football audience is 'maturing'and the old ways are not being accepted without question as they were once

I think a move to summer football in Scotland is at some point inevitable, and will come about as a result of several changes made to try and save the game in Scotland.

Obviously on its own its no panacea for all teh games ills, but I do think it will be part of changes the game wil undergo in a bid to reamain as a full time sport.

[GreenCastle]

I haven't seen anyone on this thread say that Scottish Football is any good. We have to look for solutions, and we have to think differently. Although we invented the game, we are very poor at learning from other small countries.

IMO, in 2011 people are more used to their comforts than they were in 1961. They would rather stay in during winter. It's not just football that suffers from that, pubs are a lot busier on summer nights than they are in January.

If football is to remain an entertainment, rather than the last bastion of a bygone working class, it has to be where the people are. Otherwise it will be as relevant as bear baiting or bare knuckle boxing in 50 years' time.

:agree:

That could be a separate poll - the results would be ugly reading.

[David@EasterRoad]

Would prefer a March - October season to what we have now. So many advantages to avoiding December, January and February that are already listed.

[nortonhibby]

This seems to be brought up every winter but seems with the SPL struggling right now financially and with crowds - not to mention games still being postponed even with undersoil heating - is it time to change the structure of our season

Current Leagues I know of play through Summer - feel free to add

USA
Russia
Ireland
Norway
Faroes
Sweden
Finland


Pros -

Cheaper for clubs - less costs during the winter with heating and lights
No fixture congestion - currently many games are crammed in during winter months
Easier for fans to travel
Better playing surfaces / pitches = quality better ?
Opportunities to attract more tourists ? Edinburgh Festival etc
Would attract more youths to games? Parents willing to take them when weather was more manageable
Cons -

Different to the majority of world football calender
International Tournaments (though only last a month or so)
Complications with transfer windows
Change to the status quo / tradition
Discuss please....

your pros far outway the cons for me i voted yes.

[Andy74]

Would prefer a March - October season to what we have now. So many advantages to avoiding December, January and February that are already listed.

We currently play over about ten months though.

[BoltonHibee]

Would people still purchase season tickets knowing they are going to possibly miss, 1,2 or even 3 games due to their summer holidays?

[NAE NOOKIE]

We currently play over about ten months though.

From the start of March to the end of October in 2012 there are 35 Saturdays and 35 Wednesdays which equals 70 potential match days.


A 16 team league with a 6 / 10 split gives anybody finishing in the top six 40 league games to play. It would be reasonable to presume that for the most part the teams finishing in the bottom 10 wouldnt be in Europe so the extra league games they would have to play wouldnt be too much of a problem.

In fact you could be really nasty and make the bottom 10 start on a clean slate after the split. It would be like a mini championship.

The trick would be to ensure that no club has too many home games in any one month so that walk up fans can afford to go to as many games as they can ( most folk are paid 4 weekly or monthly these days )

Play the Scottish Cup final in the middle of September so that I dont freeze my bum off watching the Hibs parading the trophy along Princes Street.


:greengrin

[calumb]

split the difference and have six weeks off from mid december till the end of january so that fans do not have to fork out for games before xmas and till after they are paid in january, then have another six weeks from start of june till mid july to allow everyone to go on holidays

[GreenCastle]

Would people still purchase season tickets knowing they are going to possibly miss, 1,2 or even 3 games due to their summer holidays?

With ER season tickets struggling to sell right now don't think it would make a difference right now in our 20,000 seater stadium which hasn't been full once yet. Hopefully the team will start improving and making a ticket harder to get - but will take a few seasons..I hope..

I do understand what your saying but it's the average at the end of the season is what would probably be a better measure.

I enjoy the festive games in a way - usually when we are playing better - and the new years derby is special BUT I would also travel to more away games in the winter months and the fact SPL isn't value for money asking for fans to pay X amount during Xmas when presents etc have to be bought is difficult especially in this economy.

Think about a road trip to Aberdeen in the summer - would be much more bearable than 12.30 ko on a cold December morning / early afternoon.

Now you can talk about Summer holidays - but who really goes away for more than 1 week - sometimes 2 yes - but with the fixtures coming out in plenty of time you could book around it.

People go away in the winter also do they complain ?

I honestly think this will happen - I am curious to see how this winter goes as last year the snow was pretty bad and so far hasn't been bad so lets wait and see how many games are cancelled in all the Scottish leagues - obviously can't count all lower league and youth games.

If anyone had stats for the games cancelled over the last few years that could be interesting with number of games off at from November till March.

[Alfred E Newman]

With ER season tickets struggling to sell right now don't think it would make a difference right now in our 20,000 seater stadium which hasn't been full once yet. Hopefully the team will start improving and making a ticket harder to get - but will take a few seasons..I hope..

I do understand what your saying but it's the average at the end of the season is what would probably be a better measure.

I enjoy the festive games in a way - usually when we are playing better - and the new years derby is special BUT I would also travel to more away games in the winter months and the fact SPL isn't value for money asking for fans to pay X amount during Xmas when presents etc have to be bought is difficult especially in this economy.

Think about a road trip to Aberdeen in the summer - would be much more bearable than 12.30 ko on a cold December morning / early afternoon.

Now you can talk about Summer holidays - but who really goes away for more than 1 week - sometimes 2 yes - but with the fixtures coming out in plenty of time you could book around it.
People go away in the winter also do they complain ?

I honestly think this will happen - I am curious to see how this winter goes as last year the snow was pretty bad and so far hasn't been bad so lets wait and see how many games are cancelled in all the Scottish leagues - obviously can't count all lower league and youth games.

If anyone had stats for the games cancelled over the last few years that could be interesting with number of games off at from November till March.

I take it you don`t have a family or if you do you must have a very understanding wife. As almost all family holidays are taken during the school holidays I could see trouble looming in your house.

[Alfred E Newman]

Russia (12th)
Republic of Ireland (21st)
Norway (25th)
USA (34th)
but not
Finland (88th)

(FIFA World Rankings)
Scotland (49th)

These are International rankings and with the exception of Russia do not reflect the quality of ther respective leagues. Ask anyone who watches the League of Ireland and they will tell you it is dire and ranks below Rugby and Gaelic football in popularity.Countries like Russia , Finland and Norway have no option but to shut down over the worst of the winter.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Countries like Russia , Finland and Norway have no option but to shut down over the worst of the winter.

What ..... Countries like us

[marinello59]

I take it you don`t have a family or if you do you must have a very understanding wife. As almost all family holidays are taken during the school holidays I could see trouble looming in your house.

I am not so sure that is true anymore. The old trades fortnight style evacuation is all but dead now. A lot of families take their main holiday in October now, a chance to get some sun during a chilly month at cheaper prices. Throw in the fact that short weekend breaks throughout the year are not uncommon then no matter when you play football it will be hard for people to attend every match. Midweek matches are a non starter for me as there is no way my son could stay up that late on a school night. Playing then during school holidays would be different though. My wee lad was nearly in tears because he was so cold on Saturday watching two stuffy sides 'contest' a pretty turgid game. It's madness to expect families to endure conditions like that in what is supposed to be an entertainment industry.

[JimBHibees]

I would agree that I think it is worth a try. Something like a March to November with a 2 or 3 week break in July to accommodate summer holidays and give a short break to the players. Better pitches and training conditions hopefully getting teams playing better more attractive stuff. Better weather for fans to go to games.

[The_Exile]

A lot of families take their main holiday in October now, a chance to get some sun during a chilly month at cheaper prices.

Dunno about your wee ones school mate, but I would need special dispensation to take my one off on holiday in October, they only give you the green light if it's special circumstances.

Summer Football is a must, where is the incentive to turn up at a stadium in winter? Only true die hard fans/ST hodlers will do it, I know I certainly wouldn't (more because I am skint constantly), last time I took him to a game in Winter he was freezing and we left at half time, just beacuse something has been a certain way for a while doesn't mean to say it's right. As a species we are creatures of habit and usually are utterly repulsed by any sort of change in our lives/routine, if it was up to me, we'd play Mid March to Early December, and kick off times would be 12noon across the board.

[Steve20]

Would prefer a March - October season to what we have now. So many advantages to avoiding December, January and February that are already listed.

No matches the whole of November, December, January and February??

No thanks, two months without football is long enough.

[GreenCastle]

No matches the whole of November, December, January and February??

No thanks, two months without football is long enough.

Would probably be only December and January - then February and start of March pre-season friendlies.

There would still be football though available to watch live or on T.V as other leagues in the world would still be playing during December - English league maybe ? Italian ? Spanish have a winter break I think ?

[marinello59]

Dunno about your wee ones school mate, but I would need special dispensation to take my one off on holiday in October, they only give you the green light if it's special circumstances.


Don't all schools in Scotland get two weeks off in October?

[The_Exile]

Don't all schools in Scotland get two weeks off in October?


Yeah you're right,mid term break, didn't think of that! Think it's just a week though? or a week and a bit?

[Sir David Gray]

Don't all schools in Scotland get two weeks off in October?

Schools in my area are off for one week in October and it's always been that way, since I was at school.

No idea about other areas.

[Peevemor]

Tatties!

[Alfred E Newman]

I am not so sure that is true anymore. The old trades fortnight style evacuation is all but dead now. A lot of families take their main holiday in October now, a chance to get some sun during a chilly month at cheaper prices. Throw in the fact that short weekend breaks throughout the year are not uncommon then no matter when you play football it will be hard for people to attend every match. Midweek matches are a non starter for me as there is no way my son could stay up that late on a school night. Playing then during school holidays would be different though. My wee lad was nearly in tears because he was so cold on Saturday watching two stuffy sides 'contest' a pretty turgid game. It's madness to expect families to endure conditions like that in what is supposed to be an entertainment industry.

Not in the Borders. Many mills and building trade firms still take trades holidays.
Take the wee lad this weekend, the temperature is forecast to be 12 degrees underlining the unpredictability of our weather.

[marinello59]

Tatties!

:agree: The kids today don't know how lucky they are not having to howk spuds for a week. No wonder I have back problems.