Fenlon quick to identify Hibs’ areas of weakness - Agogo & Thornhill To Leave

[YehButNoBut]

From todays Scotsman, Fenlon already working on targets for January and Agogo & Thornhill seemingly told they can go.

Anyone know anything about Mindaugas Kalonas?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/fenlon_quick_to_identify_hibs_areas_of_weakness_1_ 1997155

Junior Agogo and Matt Thornhill have reportedly already been told they can leave the club, potentially freeing up a portion of the budget for Fenlon’s own targets. And while the former Bohemians manager – who has been linked to the Kuban Krasnodar midfielder Mindaugas Kalonas recently – insists he hasn’t pinpointed any individuals to approach, he has left little doubt that he is keen to do business in less than a month’s time.

[ahibby]

Maybe someone better informed can tell me and a few others I have spoken to whether the system for finding us players is based on the manager highlighting areas and therefore the type of player he is looking for and letting the club find and acquire that type of player. That as opposed to the John Collins day when it seemed the manager would make a list of players and list them 1 to 5 in order of preference.

The system described in my first sentence would prevent any future and current manager making the claim made by JC about always only being allowed his 3rd and sometimes 4th choice and never his 1st or 2nd.

'Just tell us the position and type of player your looking for and leave Scott Lindsey' brother in law to find someone suitable.', kind of thing. Here is a quote from the Scotsman which might and might not support the assumption:
He said: “We’ve identified a few areas where we are maybe a little short. We have looked at areas rather than individuals (from Pat Fenlon)

As I was writing the above I noticed I was bitter at the thought that the chief scout was so involved considering he might only have the job because of nepitism, but maybe he is really worth his salt, who knows. I don't want this to turn in to a Hibs bashing (although I've probably ended up going down that route), but if anyone knows what our system is, maybe we could put this to bed.

[judas]

Maybe someone better informed can tell me and a few others I have spoken to whether the system for finding us players is based on the manager highlighting areas and therefore the type of player he is looking for and letting the club find and acquire that type of player. That as opposed to the John Collins day when it seemed the manager would make a list of players and list them 1 to 5 in order of preference.

The system described in my first sentence would prevent any future and current manager making the claim made by JC about always only being allowed his 3rd and sometimes 4th choice and never his 1st or 2nd.

'Just tell us the position and type of player your looking for and leave Scott Lindsey' brother in law to find someone suitable.', kind of thing. Here is a quote from the Scotsman which might and might not support the assumption:
He said: “We’ve identified a few areas where we are maybe a little short. We have looked at areas rather than individuals (from Pat Fenlon)

As I was writing the above I noticed I was bitter at the thought that the chief scout was so involved considering he might only have the job because of nepitism, but maybe he is really worth his salt, who knows. I don't want this to turn in to a Hibs bashing (although I've probably ended up going down that route), but if anyone knows what our system is, maybe we could put this to bed.

I think we have to be careful about the rantings of previous managers , especially when it is clear that their ability did not match their egos (especially with John Collins - a managerial buffoon if ever there was one).

Personally, I am confident that our club is being managed well and with fairness at board level. In fact, I think the development in the clubs infrastructure and stature has been little short of magnificent over the past years. Credit to Calderwood for saying what some of us already knew (in The Scotsman yesterday).

The structure is strong. With some support and patience the team will be strong too. It's not a matter of if, but when.

[ScottB]

Given that the last 2 managers have signed several players from former clubs, I think it's clear that they were the choices of said managers/

[jacomo]

John Collins - a managerial buffoon if ever there was one.

I despair when I read ill-informed rubbish like this.

I am just not sure Hibs' scouting is all that good - hard to think of an unknown player who's arrived in the past few years and really made an impact. CC seemed to bypass it and sign players he was aware of in England.

[Hibercelona]

I despair when I read ill-informed rubbish like this.
I am just not sure Hibs' scouting is all that good - hard to think of an unknown player who's arrived in the past few years and really made an impact. CC seemed to bypass it and sign players he was aware of in England.

:agree:

He had his flaws, but certainly not a buffoon.

I'm surprised more questions haven't been raised on here about the scouting system. They've been getting off lightly IMO.

[Golden Bear]

I despair when I read ill-informed rubbish like this.

I am just not sure Hibs' scouting is all that good - hard to think of an unknown player who's arrived in the past few years and really made an impact. CC seemed to bypass it and sign players he was aware of in England.

:agree:

[--------]

According to the article linked below, it appears that PF isn't planning a wholesale clearout in January.

"Fenlon has already identified one or two players who will probably leave the club in the near future, with Junior Agogo and Matt Thornhill having reportedly been told they can go. But in an exclusive interview with the Evening News, the 42-year-old Irishman claimed he was generally happy with the squad he’d inherited from his predecessor Colin Calderwood. Fenlon has already made it clear every player is playing for his future but he is determined to get the best out of each of them before determining how to reshape the squad..."


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/hibs_boss_says_no_clearout_in_january_1_1998694 (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/hibs_boss_says_no_clearout_in_january_1_1998694)

[JimBHibees]

According to the article linked below, it appears that PF isn't planning a wholesale clearout in January.

"Fenlon has already identified one or two players who will probably leave the club in the near future, with Junior Agogo and Matt Thornhill having reportedly been told they can go. But in an exclusive interview with the Evening News, the 42-year-old Irishman claimed he was generally happy with the squad he’d inherited from his predecessor Colin Calderwood. Fenlon has already made it clear every player is playing for his future but he is determined to get the best out of each of them before determining how to reshape the squad..."


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/hibs_boss_says_no_clearout_in_january_1_1998694 (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/hibs_boss_says_no_clearout_in_january_1_1998694)

Good I want him to prove he can manage by firstly getting the best out of what we have got and then bringing 2 or 3 to supplement them. Whatever we may think of the present squad there is no way on this earth that we are seeing them all playing to their full potential. If he can do that and then bring in a few players to strengthen then we are onto a winner IMO.

[jacomo]

Good I want him to prove he can manage by firstly getting the best out of what we have got and then bringing 2 or 3 to supplement them. Whatever we may think of the present squad there is no way on this earth that we are seeing them all playing to their full potential. If he can do that and then bring in a few players to strengthen then we are onto a winner IMO.

I'd go along with this. I think Fenlon's quotes to the media should be taken with a pinch of salt - there might not be much chance of moving many on next month even if he wanted to, so much better for him to say the players all have an opportunity to impress him.

[Dr Jimmy]

I'd go along with this. I think Fenlon's quotes to the media should be taken with a pinch of salt - there might not be much chance of moving many on next month even if he wanted to, so much better for him to say the players all have an opportunity to impress him.He also has 4 games to play with them before he can do anything. Best keep them "on board" before Jan.

[Hibercelona]

He also has 4 games to play with them before he can do anything. Best keep them "on board" before Jan.

Exactly. It would be foolish to state publicly who will be out the door while we still need them on the pitch.

[The_Todd]

I think we have to be careful about the rantings of previous managers , especially when it is clear that their ability did not match their egos (especially with John Collins - a managerial buffoon if ever there was one).

Aye, the League Cup win was a low point for all Hibs fans. Thankfully St Tony never stooped to such depths as winning trophies.

[Hibercelona]

Aye, the League Cup win was a low point for all Hibs fans. Thankfully St Tony never stooped to such depths as winning trophies.

But it was TM's signings that won the cup doncha know... :rolleyes:

[--------]

Good I want him to prove he can manage by firstly getting the best out of what we have got and then bringing 2 or 3 to supplement them. Whatever we may think of the present squad there is no way on this earth that we are seeing them all playing to their full potential. If he can do that and then bring in a few players to strengthen then we are onto a winner IMO.

Fenlon makes that point himself, Jim -

“It’s a case of ‘we have good players, can we get the best out of them?’ The one thing the club needs is continuity, that’s for certain. You are hoping you can get that continuity with the group of players, or the majority of them. At the end of the day I may want certain players to come in but I think there has to be a balance. If you keep changing everything it’s never going to settle and you never get to where you want to be.

“We need to try to get that balance right where we have continuity with players, but I also believe you need to freshen up players either way, whether you are doing well or not doing well. Not loads, but to keep things going, to keep people on their toes.

“There will be players who move, there’s no point in saying anything different but at the moment it’s all about trying to get the best out of players rather than worrying about having to move for other players.

“That’s not what I want to do, I want to give the boys here the chance to prove themselves. I firmly believe we have a good squad of players here but I don’t think the football club has been getting the best out of them. That’s up to me to try to do that and, at the end of the day, if it doesn’t work then you have to change it.”

That makes sense to me.

[judas]

I despair when I read ill-informed rubbish like this.

I am just not sure Hibs' scouting is all that good - hard to think of an unknown player who's arrived in the past few years and really made an impact. CC seemed to bypass it and sign players he was aware of in England.

Nice. Thanks for that.

Unfortunately, for you, the opposite is true.

The John Collins is (or was - oh the irony) a decent manager argument, simply doesn't stand up to critical appraisal.

Where is JC now?
Have any clubs snapped up this amazing talent?
Where did he leave Hibs - higher or lower in the league?
How did he do with that Belgian outfit? Did he leave them higher in the league?
How many players speak about his great management at Hibs? Scott Brown perhaps, who recently paid tribute to ...TM?
How many players in the league cup winning side did JC sign?
How many players ran to JC to thank him for his amazing leadership after the final whistle (even Alex Miller got this reception)?

The love of JC as a manager is misguided and distorted by sentimentalism.

I would like to be able to say that JC at least talked a good game. But that debacle when Tommy Craig, was whispering instructions to JC in front of the Scottish media, reduced the club to the kind of foolish status associated with the plums across the road.

Please give up on the JC argument. He isn't a manager, literally.

[givescotlandfreedom]

But it was TM's signings that won the cup doncha know... :rolleyes:

It was

[Hainan Hibs]

(especially with John Collins - a managerial buffoon if ever there was one).


Even though people do it to fish for responses it really does rile me when people type nonsense like this regarding Collins.

The man managed the team to our first trophy in 16 years. The man should get far more respect than he current gets and certainly doesn't deserve abuse.

[7Hero]

Nice. Thanks for that.

Unfortunately, for you, the opposite is true.

The John Collins is (or was - oh the irony) a decent manager argument, simply doesn't stand up to critical appraisal.

Where is JC now?
Have any clubs snapped up this amazing talent?
Where did he leave Hibs - higher or lower in the league?
How did he do with that Belgian outfit? Did he leave them higher in the league?
How many players speak about his great management at Hibs? Scott Brown perhaps, who recently paid tribute to ...TM?
How many players in the league cup winning side did JC sign?
How many players ran to JC to thank him for his amazing leadership after the final whistle (even Alex Miller got this reception)?

The love of JC as a manager is misguided and distorted by sentimentalism.

I would like to be able to say that JC at least talked a good game. But that debacle when Tommy Craig, was whispering instructions to JC in front of the Scottish media, reduced the club to the kind of foolish status associated with the plums across the road.

Please give up on the JC argument. He isn't a manager, literally.

couldn't agree more

[Bohstron]

Kalonas was a cult hero for Bohs in our double winning season in 08', super tricky little winger who gets his fair share of goals.

He left us with a few great memories including scoring the penalty to win us the double....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOeQjQC8njM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Nsh17qzao&feature=related

[judas]

Even though people do it to fish for responses it really does rile me when people type nonsense like this regarding Collins.

The man managed the team to our first trophy in 16 years. The man should get far more respect than he current gets and certainly doesn't deserve abuse.

OK. I admit, the language was strong. Perhaps something lighter would have pleased you. But the substance is hard to refute.

[TornadoHibby]

.......especially with John Collins - a managerial buffoon if ever there was one.


Sorry mate, definately don't agree with that nonsense! :confused:

[S4uzee]

I couldn't care if thornhill neverplayed for hibs again but i would like agogo to stay, think he was beginning to get better each game!

[judas]

Sorry mate, definately don't agree with that nonsense! :confused:

What I find notable, is that I am apparently talking 'nonsense' and 'rubbish' (in the eyes of a minority), and yet none of my critics are able to offer their own positive or convincing critique on Collins as a manager.

If it is the use of the word 'buffoon' that upsets you, then I concede that this was strong and possibly inappropriate.

I see you pay homage to the great 70's team in your user name. You may find something interesting in what Eddie Turnbull (a real manager) had to say about Collins after his departure. Personally, I agree to the last word with everything Eddie said.

[Iain G]

What I find notable, is that I am apparently talking 'nonsense' and 'rubbish' (in the eyes of a minority), and yet none of my critics are able to offer their own positive or convincing critique on Collins as a manager.

If it is the use of the word 'buffoon' that upsets you, then I concede that this was strong and possibly inappropriate.

I see you pay homage to the great 70's team in your user name. You may find something interesting in what Eddie Turnbull (a real manager) had to say about Collins after his departure. Personally, I agree to the last word with everything Eddie said.

Were you at Hampden that amazing day of the cup victory, when John Collins led his Hibs team to win our first trophy in god knows how long? Did you line up on the streets of Edinburgh to salute and applaud the manager and players home with the trophy? Do you still raised a wee smile at the thought of just how bleedin damned good it was to be a Hibs supporter that day? That's the proof you need that he was a good manager for Hibs. :agree:

[GreenPJ]

What I find notable, is that I am apparently talking 'nonsense' and 'rubbish' (in the eyes of a minority), and yet none of my critics are able to offer their own positive or convincing critique on Collins as a manager.

If it is the use of the word 'buffoon' that upsets you, then I concede that this was strong and possibly inappropriate.

I see you pay homage to the great 70's team in your user name. You may find something interesting in what Eddie Turnbull (a real manager) had to say about Collins after his departure. Personally, I agree to the last word with everything Eddie said.

Admit it you lost the six pack challenge. By the way whilst I reveer him what did Eddie win as manager.

[Mon_the_cabbage]

Admit it you lost the six pack challenge. By the way whilst I reveer him what did Eddie win as manager.

Apart from . . . .

1 Scottish Cup

1 League Cup

3 Dryburgh Cups

All against probably the greatest side in Scottish history (the Celtc European Cup winners and 9 in a row team)

Hmmmm not much then.

[GreenPJ]

Apart from . . . .

1 Scottish Cup

1 League Cup

3 Dryburgh Cups

All against probably the greatest side in Scottish history (the Celtc European Cup winners and 9 in a row team)

Hmmmm not much then.

Must have missed that Scottish cup win for hibs

[Mon_the_cabbage]

Must have missed that Scottish cup win for hibs

Sorry, you didn't specify that it was only as Hibs manager.

As a manager, these are the trophy's ET won.

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

Good I want him to prove he can manage by firstly getting the best out of what we have got and then bringing 2 or 3 to supplement them. Whatever we may think of the present squad there is no way on this earth that we are seeing them all playing to their full potential. If he can do that and then bring in a few players to strengthen then we are onto a winner IMO.

Totally agree - what all clubs of our level (below old firm, above the yams :na na:) need is this.. we have to make players better - we can't afford just to go to market to solve our problems..

Somewhere there is a good coach hope it is PF :-)

[judas]

Admit it you lost the six pack challenge. By the way whilst I reveer him what did Eddie win as manager.

In the name of Franck.

You just attempted to place Eddie Turnbull on the same platform as Collins.

Talking about 'Eddie's', do you remember the character 'Eddie The Eagle'. He was a British ski jumper who fell considerably short on his jumps, much to the amusement of others. That's how I see the pro Collins argument offered to date.

You say I lost the challenge (funny six pack bit btw he he), but I have not received a single good argument for Collins.:wink:

[judas]

Were you at Hampden that amazing day of the cup victory, when John Collins led his Hibs team to win our first trophy in god knows how long? Did you line up on the streets of Edinburgh to salute and applaud the manager and players home with the trophy? Do you still raised a wee smile at the thought of just how bleedin damned good it was to be a Hibs supporter that day? That's the proof you need that he was a good manager for Hibs. :agree:

Yes I was a spectator that magnificent day. In that regard, I have much in common with JC.

With respect, yours isn't really a convincing plug for Collins is it?

Your attempt to draw ET & Collins together demonstrates precisely the lack of appraisal skill, I was talking about earlier.

In case you don't know your history:

ET, built a squad
ET, won the league cup with it
ET, came close to winning the title with it
ET, took Hibs to Europe several times
ET, won Dryburgh Cups
ET, did all of the above against one of the greatest Celtic teams in history
ET gubbed Hearts 7-0

Your argument illustrates perfectly the kind of sentimental delusion I associate with the Collins argument.

[hibsbollah]

Yes I was a spectator that magnificent day. In that regard, I have much in common with JC.With respect, yours isn't really a convincing plug for Collins is it?Your attempt to draw ET & Collins together demonstrates precisely the lack of appraisal skill, I was talking about earlier.In case you don't know your history:ET, built a squadET, won the league cup with it ET, came close to winning the title with it ET, took Hibs to Europe several timesET, won Dryburgh CupsET, did all of the above against one of the greatest Celtic teams in historyET gubbed Hearts 7-0 Your argument illustrates perfectly the kind of sentimental delusion I associate with the Collins argument.That all stands up to scrutiny, but really has nothng to do with your original assertion which was that Collins was a managerial 'buffoon' (hijacking quite an interesting point about our scouting system at the same time). You started the pointless hyperbole and its as ridiculous now as when you typed it.

[Iain G]

Yes I was a spectator that magnificent day. In that regard, I have much in common with JC.

With respect, yours isn't really a convincing plug for Collins is it?

Your attempt to draw ET & Collins together demonstrates precisely the lack of appraisal skill, I was talking about earlier.

In case you don't know your history:

ET, built a squad
ET, won the league cup with it
ET, came close to winning the title with it
ET, took Hibs to Europe several times
ET, won Dryburgh Cups
ET, did all of the above against one of the greatest Celtic teams in history
ET gubbed Hearts 7-0

Your argument illustrates perfectly the kind of sentimental delusion I associate with the Collins argument.

Given your lack of ability to attibute the right response to the right person's arguement on this thread it hardly lends you any kind of credibility to your own arguement and points to your low powers of observation, deduction and appraisal that form your own arguement against Collins. :greengrin

JC won us a shiny silver trophy, that's damn site more than a number of manager have, including your own, I suspect, saint Tony Mowbray. If we count success and winning things as the main criterion to judge any manager, then John Collins rates higher than a lot of our managers, especially in recent history. :agree:

[judas]

That all stands up to scrutiny, but really has nothng to do with your original assertion which was that Collins was a managerial 'buffoon' (hijacking quite an interesting point about our scouting system at the same time). You started the pointless hyperbole and its as ridiculous now as when you typed it.

With respect, you are slightly behind on this one. I have conceded the point about the label 'buffoon' and I think if you read through the posts you will see clearly how ET came into it.

And again, with respect, Collins was referenced in the 2nd post. I was merely pointing out that any comments made by this poor manager should be treated cautiously.

To be fair though, I have made the point now without a decent return and will now move on.

[judas]

Given your lack of ability to attibute the right response to the right person's arguement on this thread it hardly lends you any kind of credibility to your own arguement and points to your low powers of observation, deduction and appraisal that form your own arguement against Collins. :greengrin

JC won us a shiny silver trophy, that's damn site more than a number of manager have, including your own, I suspect, saint Tony Mowbray. If we count success and winning things as the main criterion to judge any manager, then John Collins rates higher than a lot of our managers, especially in recent history. :agree:

Is that it? Is that your argument for Collins? Don't you see any flaws at all in your comments?

Looks like I will have to keep waiting for a decent Collins argument then.

[Iain G]

Is that it? Is that your argument for Collins? Don't you see any flaws at all in your comments?

Looks like I will have to keep waiting for a decent Collins argument then.

No it's not my arguement for Collins, it's just that you seem to have written the guy off as a "buffoon" and fail to give him any credit for winning the League Cup, which on both accounts is as wrong as you could probably get :agree:

[judas]

No it's not my arguement for Collins, it's just that you seem to have written the guy off as a "buffoon" and fail to give him any credit for winning the League Cup, which on both accounts is as wrong as you could probably get :agree:

Again - I take back the 'buffoon' comment.

But you are correct - I have written him off as a manager.