Celtc cleared of pro-IRA singing

[DaveF]

SPL note that the singing took place, but that Celtc "took all reasonably practicable steps" to prevent the behaviour"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16040028.stm

As you were bhoys :rolleyes:

[johnbc70]

SPL note that the singing took place, but that Celtc "took all reasonably practicable steps" to prevent the behaviour"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16040028.stm

As you were bhoys :rolleyes:

Yep - was a good chance to show how serious the SPL was on eradicating this from the game. Well now we know, they are not serious at all. An offence is an offence and should be punished, would have sent out a powerful message to other fans that even 1 individual singing such songs could lead to a fine or points deduction. But it will be business as usual.

[Hibs Class]

Yep - was a good chance to show how serious the SPL was on eradicating this from the game. Well now we know, they are not serious at all. An offence is an offence and should be punished, would have sent out a powerful message to other fans that even 1 individual singing such songs could lead to a fine or points deduction. But it will be business as usual.

They've still to convince UEFA that such singing doesn't matter. That may be a bit harder.

[grunt]

Yep - was a good chance to show how serious the SPL was on eradicating this from the game. Well now we know, they are not serious at all. An offence is an offence and should be punished, would have sent out a powerful message to other fans that even 1 individual singing such songs could lead to a fine or points deduction. But it will be business as usual.
It could even be worse than business as usual. The Celtc fans have just been given the go ahead to sing what they want, as long as Celtc continue to officially disprove. This will be a huge setback for Alex's anti-sectarian strategy.

[Saorsa]

SPL note that the singing took place, but that Celtc "took all reasonably practicable steps" to prevent the behaviour"





http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16040028.stm

As you were bhoys :rolleyes:what a surprise :rolleyes: Hopefully UEFA will clobber them as the gutless wonders at the SPL simply dinnae have the bottle and have taken their usual course of action

http://www.fnafinancial.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sweep-under-rug.jpg

[snooky]

SPL note that the singing took place, but that Celtc "took all reasonably practicable steps" to prevent the behaviour"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16040028.stm

As you were bhoys :rolleyes:

It's just like a soap opera .............oops, sorry, bad choice of words, me bhoys.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Oh well, as we always knew, its Dunfermline that are Scotlands Shame! What a joke!

[Rougier45]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Ffs!

[Rougier45]

If you want to do something about sectarianism stop catholic schools and keep the kids together church should be separate from education -rather than worry about old soaks singing Irish freedom songs -next you will ban the free Nelson Mandela song -can't be glorifying terrorists

[PaulSmith]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?

I'll let you come back on this one as your obviously more clued up than me but I feel there is a substantial difference between singing songs about where the club comes from and singing pro-IRA songs which glorify the deaths of British soldiers and more significantly (as this is a Hibs forum) some very good Hibs fans who died in the troubles.

Do Barca sing songs celebrating the deaths of non Catalans at their hands or do they celebrate their own history? I genuinely don't know but as you've brought it up it would be good to know if your able to back up the Celtic and Barca equation.

[hibbymac]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?


So do you think it's acceptable to sing songs in support of terrorist organisations ?

[Rougier45]

Paul, good point about hibs fans in the army

[Rougier45]

So do you think it's acceptable to sing songs in support of terrorist organisations ?

Doesn't matter what I think nationalist songs Are not sectarian

[hibbymac]

Doesn't matter what I think nationalist songs Are not sectarian

Are you saying "Ooh ahh up the RA" is a nationalist song

[Saorsa]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?What a surprise :rolleyes: tae see you sticking up for ceptic and their terrorist supporting fans, you seem tae have a thing for them.

[IWasThere2016]

There's a shock! :rolleyes:

[CraigK]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?

It's completely different. Barcelona is in Catalonia, Glasgow isn't in Ireland.

[Elephant Stone]

If you want to do something about sectarianism stop catholic schools and keep the kids together church should be separate from education -rather than worry about old soaks singing Irish freedom songs -next you will ban the free Nelson Mandela song -can't be glorifying terrorists

You want to stop faith schooling all over the country because Glasgow has a sectarianism problem? Are you kidding? You want to let what two football teams in Glasgow sing about dictate how schools are for the whole country?

[Rougier45]

What a surprise :rolleyes: tae see you sticking up for ceptic and their terrorist supporters, you seem tae have a thing for them.

Dan whilst most on here would deny it there are lots of hibbys with republican leanings-lots in Edinburgh have connections to ireland it's good hibs fans don't get involved in this type of chanting and most Celtic. Fans have no idea what they are singing about - but my point is that whilst the songs may irk some they are not sectarian -ooh ah up the rah may not be nationalist but neither is it sectarian many prodestants are
Nationalists

[Rougier45]

You want to stop faith schooling all over the country because Glasgow has a sectarianism problem? Are you kidding? You want to let what two football teams in Glasgow sing about dictate how schools are for the whole country?

Faith schools are a waste of time and I am qualified to have an opinion -the catholic church have been very clever at creating this illusion that catholic means quality -separation leads to trouble and whilst it may be a minor problem in edinburgh it goes on-what is the benefit of faith schools ?

[hibbymac]

Dan whilst most on here would deny it there are lots of hibbys with republican leanings-lots in Edinburgh have connections to ireland it's good hibs fans don't get involved in this type of chanting and most Celtic. Fans have no idea what they are singing about - but my point is that whilst the songs may irk some they are not sectarian -ooh ah up the rah may not be nationalist but neither is it sectarian many prodestants are
Nationalists

Why is it you are the only person talking about "Sectarianism" ?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I BELIEVE the word is Protestants.

[lapsedhibee]

The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs.

Off topic but why do Barca fans sing Basque separatist songs? :dunno:

[Saorsa]

Dan whilst most on here would deny it there are lots of hibbys with republican leanings-lots in Edinburgh have connections to ireland it's good hibs fans don't get involved in this type of chanting and most Celtic. Fans have no idea what they are singing about - but my point is that whilst the songs may irk some they are not sectarian -ooh ah up the rah may not be nationalist but neither is it sectarian many prodestants are
NationalistsThe new rule in Scotland is to cover offensive chanting, not just sectarian, you're the one that keeps mentioning sectarian. I'm sure anybody who has family/friends injured/killed by said organisation will find it offensive. WTF has any of it got tae dae with fitba? UEFA are taking them tae task for offensive (which it is) singing, not sectarian singing and I hope they get done for it. Funny the same match commander that the SPL have spoken tae is the person that apparently reported the singing tae the UEFA match delegate and funny how we never heard a peep from the SPL until UEFA decided they were going tae investigate it. Everybody knew of course the SPL investigation was little more than paying lip service and would be a complete whitewash.

[Elephant Stone]

Faith schools are a waste of time and I am qualified to have an opinion -the catholic church have been very clever at creating this illusion that catholic means quality -separation leads to trouble and whilst it may be a minor problem in edinburgh it goes on-what is the benefit of faith schools ?

How are you qualified to say that Faith school are a waste of time? How have the Catholic church created the illusion that Catholic means quality? Whatever that means.

The benefit of faith schools is that it allows pupils to be taught in a school with the ethos of their religion. If there were Catholic undertones to teaching in a non-dom school the same people bemoaning faith schools would be up in arms about their kids having Catholic teachings shoved down their throat. How can you say that having faith schools leads to trouble when there is no problem in the rest of the country?

What you're saying is a lazy myth propagated by bitter Rangers fans who don't like to see the "Taigs" getting special treatment.

[Rougier45]

How are you qualified to say that Faith school are a waste of time? How have the Catholic church created the illusion that Catholic means quality? Whatever that means.

The benefit of faith schools is that it allows pupils to be taught in a school with the ethos of their religion. If there were Catholic undertones to teaching in a non-dom school the same people bemoaning faith schools would be up in arms about their kids having Catholic teachings shoved down their throat. How can you say that having faith schools leads to trouble when there is no problem in the rest of the country?

What you're saying is a lazy myth propagated by bitter Rangers fans who don't like to see the "Taigs" getting special treatment.

I have heard bitter rangers fans propagating this arguement doesn't
Mean they are wrong though- Most European countries manage without faith schools why does Scotland need them?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Hessenhibee=Paul McBride.

I don't say this from any moral high point, but i am fairly sure that the majority of us don't want your sort here. I am sure we can arrange a whip round and get your bus fare along the M8.

[Eyrie]

I have two objections to separate schools for Catholics or any other religion. The first is that schools exist to provide children with a good all-round education and not one restricted to the teachings of a particular faith. The second is that it creates a "them and us" mentality which will reinforce divisions.

As regards "Up the RA", I was talking with a 70 year old Celtic fan from Ireland last week who maintained that the line refers to the original IRA when Ireland was seeking independence from the UK. I pointed out to him that to my generation it means the terrorist atrocities of the 1970s and 80s and, regardless of which "IRA" it referred to, it was still inappropriate when sung by Scottish fans of a Scottish club playing in Scotland against Scottish teams in Scottish competitions.

[Elephant Stone]

I have heard bitter rangers fans propagating this arguement doesn't
Mean they are wrong though- Most European countries manage without faith schools why does Scotland need them?

Well you've dodged absolutely everything I've asked so I'm not going to spend much more time on this if you're not interested in actual facts and reason. Why does Scotland need them? I'm not sure it does to be honest but they're in use at the moment and it would be mindblowing if some bitter, jealous Huns managed to disrupt every faith school pupil in the country to satisfy their perverse need for the pupils not to be seen as being given special treatment, apparently all in the name of curing Glasgow football's strange and outdated feud.

[Elephant Stone]

I have two objections to separate schools for Catholics or any other religion. The first is that schools exist to provide children with a good all-round education and not one restricted to the teachings of a particular faith. The second is that it creates a "them and us" mentality which will reinforce divisions.

As regards "Up the RA", I was talking with a 70 year old Celtic fan from Ireland last week who maintained that the line refers to the original IRA when Ireland was seeking independence from the UK. I pointed out to him that to my generation it means the terrorist atrocities of the 1970s and 80s and, regardless of which "IRA" it referred to, it was still inappropriate when sung by Scottish fans of a Scottish club playing in Scotland against Scottish teams in Scottish competitions.

Faith schools do provide children with a good all round education, some values are apparently encouraged but in no way is the teaching restricted. Do they create a "them and us" culture in Edinburgh? There are probably about thirty people (both sides included) at Edinburgh derbies who like to play up to the Wee Tim and Wee Hun ideal, Edinburgh really can't be said to have a "them and us" mentality and there are a lot of faith schools in the city.

[Rougier45]

Faith schools do provide children with a good all round education, some values are apparently encouraged but in no way is the teaching restricted. Do they create a "them and us" culture in Edinburgh? There are probably about thirty people (both sides included) at Edinburgh derbies who like to play up to the Wee Tim and Wee Hun ideal, Edinburgh really can't be said to have a "them and us" mentality and there are a lot of faith schools in the city.

-why does it all come back to football ? 3 catholic high schools st tams, holyrood and st augustines. No condoms-no poofs,no abortions ,keep it out of schools This principle is nothing to do with football or Glasgow

[Geo_1875]

Well surely now that it's been confirmed that Celtc have done everything possible to eradicate offensive songs and chanting the next step is for the police to step in and arrest the "small minority of Celtc fans who persist in this illegal activity. I won't hold my breath.

And on the subject of faith schools in Europe, try telling kids in Spain, France, Italy and others that their education system is non-donominational.

[Elephant Stone]

-why does it all come back to football ? 3 catholic high schools st tams, holyrood and st augustines. No condoms-no poofs,no abortions ,keep it out of schools This principle is nothing to do with football or Glasgow

Your ignorance is astounding. If you don't know what's taught in Faith schools then just shut up and stop guessing to suit your argument which otherwise apparently has no substance whatsoever.

[oldbutdim]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?

Crikey!

What a magnificent wind-up.

:agree:

[Rougier45]

Your ignorance is astounding. If you don't know what's taught in Faith schools then just shut up and stop guessing to suit your argument which otherwise apparently has no substance whatsoever.

My wife teaches in a faith school and I went to more than one -the catholic church views are outdated or are you telling me they are pro gay and pro condom in the global fight against aids

[Westie1875]

Dan whilst most on here would deny it there are lots of hibbys with republican leanings-lots in Edinburgh have connections to ireland it's good hibs fans don't get involved in this type of chanting and most Celtic. Fans have no idea what they are singing about - but my point is that whilst the songs may irk some they are not sectarian -ooh ah up the rah may not be nationalist but neither is it sectarian many prodestants are
Nationalists

I don't really care about that TBH, it DOES glorify terrorism, that should be enough to see them punished.

It has no place at a football ground, ever, completely inappropriate.

[DCI Gene Hunt]

Everybody's heard the pro-'Ra songs, whether at games or on telly. It happens at every Celtc game. You know it, I know it, the Police know it, Alex Yammond knows it, the Scottish football authorities know it.

...But apparently that's OK, because "Celtc are takling steps against it".

What steps?
To what extent?
What has been/is the effect of said action?

Again Celtc escape punishment for obvious offences (as do the other odious lot thru West) and again the authorities fail the game and the country. Poor, pish poor, not good enough. :no way:

P.S. Personal point but I find the glorification of a terrorist organisation that waged a campaign for many years in this country resulting in the deaths (Re: Murder) and maiming of many innocent people absolutely revolting.

Gene

[Elephant Stone]

My wife teaches in a faith school and I went to more than one -the catholic church views are outdated or are you telling me they are pro gay and pro condom in the global fight against aids

I don't know the official church stance is on these things and I'm sure opinion will differ throughout. What I can tell you for an absolute certainty, as someone who left a faith school only a couple of years ago, is that there is no discouragement whatsoever to use contraception; and that tolerance of people of other religions, nationality or sexuality is an absolute fundamental.

[Billie Jo]

I don't know the official church stance is on these things and I'm sure opinion will differ throughout. What I can tell you for an absolute certainty, as someone who left a faith school only a couple of years ago, is that there is no discouragement whatsoever to use contraception; and that tolerance of people of other religions, nationality or sexuality is an absolute fundamental.

:applause:

[Sir David Gray]

I don't think anyone's saying that Celtic's IRA songs are sectarian, as far as I'm concerned what they are singing about is actually worse than if they were singing anti-Protestant songs because at least with those types of songs, they could be deemed to be expressing their right to freedom of speech and expression.

Their songs glorify an organisation which is banned in this country under the Terrorism Act. It is illegal to be a member of the IRA or show support for it in any way.

There is absolutely no difference between the Celtic fans singing about the IRA and the Islamists who are out on the street every so often, chanting in support of al-Qaeda.

Those who sing about the IRA should be arrested and charged under the Terrorism Act.

[Eyrie]

Faith schools do provide children with a good all round education, some values are apparently encouraged but in no way is the teaching restricted. Do they create a "them and us" culture in Edinburgh? There are probably about thirty people (both sides included) at Edinburgh derbies who like to play up to the Wee Tim and Wee Hun ideal, Edinburgh really can't be said to have a "them and us" mentality and there are a lot of faith schools in the city.
Why should state-funded schools "encourage some values"? Supposing the value in question is socially unacceptable (eg supporting Hearts)? Religion should be taught at home, by the faith in question or by a private school, not at the public expense.

At primary school in the 1970s our local rival was the Catholic school down the road, so there was a definite awareness of a "difference". We grew out of it because judging people by their preferred version of Christianity isn't, as you say, something that happens in our city.

[Hibercelona]

It's not a matter of the people at the top "bottling it". They aren't afraid to take action. They simply don't want to take action because they're bigots themselves.

No serious action will ever be taken against Celtic or Rangers on the matter and excuses will forever continue to be made to defend this monstrosity.

[Dinkydoo]

Well there is a surprise.

What I want to know is, what steps have Celtic taken to prevent this sort of nonsense being sung at the football and to what extent.....

Since it still happens, on a regular basis, by the majority of their support.

[Brizo]

I don't know the official church stance is on these things and I'm sure opinion will differ throughout. What I can tell you for an absolute certainty, as someone who left a faith school only a couple of years ago, is that there is no discouragement whatsoever to use contraception; and that tolerance of people of other religions, nationality or sexuality is an absolute fundamental.

:agree:

If Catholic schools were the cause of the infirms poisonous hatred every city in mainland UK would have similar problems because there are Catholic faith schools in every city from London to Dundee. If non denom schools were the answer then logically the bigotry would only emanate from the Celtc side as the Gers fans would be all ecumenical and tolerant from their time at non denom school.

Bigotry isnt taught in any school, faith or non denom , its taught in the home. And the reason such pronounced fitba related sectarianism is only a problem in the west of scotland is because the infirm perpetuate it condemning it with one hand while encouraging their "traditions" with the other.

To blame Catholic schools for the infirms problems displays exactly the same bigoted ignorance that the OF fans display.

[Elephant Stone]

Why should state-funded schools "encourage some values"? Supposing the value in question is socially unacceptable (eg supporting Hearts)? Religion should be taught at home, by the faith in question or by a private school, not at the public expense.

At primary school in the 1970s our local rival was the Catholic school down the road, so there was a definite awareness of a "difference". We grew out of it because judging people by their preferred version of Christianity isn't, as you say, something that happens in our city.

if there's a sizeable proportion of the population who want to use these schools then why shouldn't they? Is the state only there to serve a particular kind of person? And what value that's taught is socially unacceptable?

[Cabbage East]

I have heard bitter rangers fans propagating this arguement doesn't
Mean they are wrong though- Most European countries manage without faith schools why does Scotland need them?

We should close them all to keep the Huns happy. It makes sense.

[Paisley Hibby]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?

Eh - but Barcelona is in Catalonia, and Real Sociedad and Athletic Bilbao are in the Basque Country. Where are Celtc based again? As for the rest of your post :na na:

[Andy74]

My wife teaches in a faith school and I went to more than one -the catholic church views are outdated or are you telling me they are pro gay and pro condom in the global fight against aids

I've never really got this condom argument against the Catholic Church. The Church actually teaches that sex outwith marriage shouldn't be happening either. If people choose not to follow that but do listen to the church about not using condoms then the church can't be blamed for that inconsistency.

[Andy74]

I don't think anyone's saying that Celtic's IRA songs are sectarian, as far as I'm concerned what they are singing about is actually worse than if they were singing anti-Protestant songs because at least with those types of songs, they could be deemed to be expressing their right to freedom of speech and expression.

Their songs glorify an organisation which is banned in this country under the Terrorism Act. It is illegal to be a member of the IRA or show support for it in any way.

There is absolutely no difference between the Celtic fans singing about the IRA and the Islamists who are out on the street every so often, chanting in support of al-Qaeda.

Those who sing about the IRA should be arrested and charged under the Terrorism Act.

The alternative view is that they are sung in remebrance of what was a nationalist army fighting for freedom and against opression nearly a hundred years ago.

Much in the same way as Scots sing about fighting back against English occupation.

[JeMeSouviens]

Their songs glorify an organisation which is banned in this country under the Terrorism Act. It is illegal to be a member of the IRA or show support for it in any way.

There is absolutely no difference between the Celtic fans singing about the IRA and the Islamists who are out on the street every so often, chanting in support of al-Qaeda.

Those who sing about the IRA should be arrested and charged under the Terrorism Act.


Here's the relevant bit from the Terrorism Act (2006):

Encouragement of terrorism (section 1): Prohibits the publishing of "a statement that is likely to be understood by some or all of the members of the public to whom it is published as a direct or indirect encouragement or other inducement to them to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences." Indirect encouragement statements include every statement which glorifies the commission or preparation (whether in the past, in the future or generally) of such acts or offences; and is a statement from which those members of the public could reasonably be expected to infer that what is being glorified as conduct that should be emulated by them in existing circumstances."

Given the last sentence, there is no chance you could make that stick.

In any case, various parts/offshoots of the IRA form nearly all the main political parties in Ireland (and have been the major part of every government) and also sit in government in the devolved Northern Ireland administration. To suggest there is no difference between that and Al Qaeda is risible at best.

[rubber mal]

Off topic but why do Barca fans sing Basque separatist songs? :dunno:

It's Bilbao fans who sing pro-ETA songs.

[Keith_M]

Say what you like about Celtic they create a far better atmosphere than any other team in the SPL maybe the EPL also-the singing at tannadice was impressive.


The singing of nationalist songs is not unusual and something uefa don't want involved In-no different from the Catalan flags flown at barca or the eta songs at barca and other Spanish clubs. Say what you like but singing IRA songs is not sectarian.
Flower of Scotland and god save the queen are possibly more offensive than boys of the old brigade or role of honor?


And again, for the now 300th time on this board...... :rolleyes:


Please let us all know which parts of Flower of Scotland is offensive and how.

Just because something is repeated often enough does not in itself make it true.



As for your other points, I'm sure a a KKK rally is quite colourful and atmospheric but I don't think that would be the right way to liven up the football either. Do you?




Off topic but why do Barca fans sing Basque separatist songs? :dunno:

It's actually not 'off topic' as it serves to demonstrate just how clued up this guy is about the world that he doesn't know the difference between Catalunya and Euskal Herria (Basque Country)

[Backto my roots]

Why is that old argument about them and us and divisions always made just about Catholic Schools? Kids in Edinburgh leave all the time non-denominational primaries and go off to different non-denom High Schools and some go off to Private Schools. No-one ever says that causes divisions! Rivalries exist between all schools, you trying to tell me there is no rivalry between say Liberton and Gracemount!

It all comes down to parental choice and Catholic schools (which are amongst the best in Scotland and open to all) are just another choice as they are in many other countries. We shouldn't ruin a perfectly good system in the misplaced belief it will solve sectarianism. We should start by banning the Orange Order an organistation that promotes bigotry!!

[LancashireHibby]

It's completely different. Barcelona is in Catalonia, Glasgow isn't in Ireland.

This should be the stock answer every time all this sectarian rubbish is brought up. I'm sure I'm not the only one that takes great pride in the fact that HFC doesn't bog themselves in all that tripe, despite the best claims of the "Irish cousins" crap from Celtc fans.

[mickki40]

And again, for the now 300th time on this board...... :rolleyes:


Please let us all know which parts of Flower of Scotland is offensive and how.

Just because something is repeated often enough does not in itself make it true.



As for your other points, I'm sure a a KKK rally is quite colourful and atmospheric but I don't think that would be the right way to liven up the football either. Do you?





It's actually not 'off topic' as it serves to demonstrate just how clued up this guy is about the world that he doesn't know the difference between Catalunya and Euskal Herria (Basque Country)




I am English and would never be offended by "Flower of Scotland"

[Sir David Gray]

Here's the relevant bit from the Terrorism Act (2006):

Encouragement of terrorism (section 1): Prohibits the publishing of "a statement that is likely to be understood by some or all of the members of the public to whom it is published as a direct or indirect encouragement or other inducement to them to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences." Indirect encouragement statements include every statement which glorifies the commission or preparation (whether in the past, in the future or generally) of such acts or offences; and is a statement from which those members of the public could reasonably be expected to infer that what is being glorified as conduct that should be emulated by them in existing circumstances."

Given the last sentence, there is no chance you could make that stick.

In any case, various parts/offshoots of the IRA form nearly all the main political parties in Ireland (and have been the major part of every government) and also sit in government in the devolved Northern Ireland administration. To suggest there is no difference between that and Al Qaeda is risible at best.

The law in this country is pretty clear and the Home Office currently lists the IRA, along with al-Qaeda, as a proscribed terrorist organisation and therefore I personally don't see the difference between showing support for the two groups in question.

The various groups that exist today using the IRA identity are also banned in Ireland so I don't think that is an argument.

[Joe Baker II]

I'll let you come back on this one as your obviously more clued up than me but I feel there is a substantial difference between singing songs about where the club comes from and singing pro-IRA songs which glorify the deaths of British soldiers and more significantly (as this is a Hibs forum) some very good Hibs fans who died in the troubles.

Do Barca sing songs celebrating the deaths of non Catalans at their hands or do they celebrate their own history? I genuinely don't know but as you've brought it up it would be good to know if your able to back up the Celtic and Barca equation.

Barcelona fans interrupted a minutes silence for Madrid bombings in 2004 at Parkhead with derogatory chants about Madrilenos , incidentally it was observed fully by Celtic fans at that game.

Your Hibs fans analogy is not wrong but I have also met Hibs fans in Northern Irlenad who have previously been in both the Official and Provisional IRA - obviously were not killed but some have had injuries.

[Joe Baker II]

Here's the relevant bit from the Terrorism Act (2006):

Encouragement of terrorism (section 1): Prohibits the publishing of "a statement that is likely to be understood by some or all of the members of the public to whom it is published as a direct or indirect encouragement or other inducement to them to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences." Indirect encouragement statements include every statement which glorifies the commission or preparation (whether in the past, in the future or generally) of such acts or offences; and is a statement from which those members of the public could reasonably be expected to infer that what is being glorified as conduct that should be emulated by them in existing circumstances."

Given the last sentence, there is no chance you could make that stick.

In any case, various parts/offshoots of the IRA form nearly all the main political parties in Ireland (and have been the major part of every government) and also sit in government in the devolved Northern Ireland administration. To suggest there is no difference between that and Al Qaeda is risible at best.

It was subsequently clarifed that songs referring to the Irish War of independence and prior rebellions against English/British rule (whether they refer to the various predecessor bodies of the modern IRA or not) were not covered by this legislation.

[Joe Baker II]

Their songs glorify an organisation which is banned in this country under the Terrorism Act. It is illegal to be a member of the IRA or show support for it in any way.

.

No it is not - Martin McGuinness etc being in government despite acknnoweldging he was an Offiical and Provisional IRA member hardly backs up tihs argument.

[Joe Baker II]

What a surprise :rolleyes: tae see you sticking up for ceptic and their terrorist supporting fans, you seem tae have a thing for them.

May be but it is undeniable that God Save the Queen is a more offensive song than The Boys of the Old Brigade.

And I can see why Flower of Scotland could be seen as anti-English song though there is no specific reference to England as such in it.

But the fact that when Scotland play England at rugby union there will be no talk of arrests and bans (even though the club in question Celtic has been let off in this instance) just sums up the discriminatory environment facing football supporters in Scotland.

[marinello59]

Barcelona fans interrupted a minutes silence for Madrid bombings in 2004 at Parkhead with derogatory chants about Madrilenos , incidentally it was observed fully by Celtic fans at that game.

Your Hibs fans analogy is not wrong but I have also met Hibs fans in Northern Irlenad who have previously been in both the Official and Provisional IRA - obviously were not killed but some have had injuries.

I'll give that as much respect as I did your previous statments on here claiming you regularly hear pro-IRA stuff at ER, absolutely none. Yet again you are making stuff up to suit your agenda. Do you ever post about anything positive to do with Hibs? We know the answer to that one don't we?

[Sir David Gray]

No it is not - Martin McGuinness etc being in government despite acknnoweldging he was an Offiical and Provisional IRA member hardly backs up tihs argument.

Have a look at this then.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/counter-terrorism/proscribed-terror-groups/proscribed-groups?view=Binary

I'm not saying that the IRA doesn't have support in the UK, that's why Martin McGuinness and other Sinn Fein members have been voted into the Northern Ireland Assembly. I'm saying that supporting the IRA is illegal in the UK and membership of it is banned.

That is all true and the Celtic fans singing these songs should be arrested under the Terrorism Act.

[harpo]

Have a look at this then.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/counter-terrorism/proscribed-terror-groups/proscribed-groups?view=Binary

I'm not saying that the IRA doesn't have support in the UK, that's why Martin McGuinness and other Sinn Fein members have been voted into the Northern Ireland Assembly. I'm saying that supporting the IRA is illegal in the UK and membership of it is banned.

That is all true and the Celtic fans singing these songs should be arrested under the Terrorism Act.

Please get real.

Imagine the chaos if the police tried to arrest every celtic fan who sung a rebel song. Geez a break! 411

[Kammy1875]

Please get real.

Imagine the chaos if the police tried to arrest every celtic fan who sung a rebel song. Geez a break! 411

It would only cause chaos because they are **** :agree:

[Sir David Gray]

Please get real.

Imagine the chaos if the police tried to arrest every celtic fan who sung a rebel song. Geez a break! 411

One or two would be a start.

[Stanton]

One or two would be a start.

FH if only it were that easy !!

If there has been a conflict ( now finished ) and someone in Scotland eschews a view in word or song that does NOT tie in with prevailing views in Scotland ( i.e British policy and action were / are correct and Irish Nationalist / Republican aspirations and campaign were wrong ) and opines in the environ of a football ground a sympathy with and support for his view …you believe he should be arrested under the anti-terrorism act ??

This could open a whole can of worms !!!

People seem in agreement that the above is NOT sectarian …BUT OFFENSIVE….. ( this term was quickly patched together to ensure it was not JUST the Huns naked sectarianism being targeted ) in fact many in Scotland find the very sight of an Irish National Flag offensive.
Will that emblem be next to be deemed worthy of arrest?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion FH and I respect you appear to have strong views on this but I am not sure you have thought the whole thing through properly.

GGTTH

[Betty Boop]

Have a look at this then.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/counter-terrorism/proscribed-terror-groups/proscribed-groups?view=Binary

I'm not saying that the IRA doesn't have support in the UK, that's why Martin McGuinness and other Sinn Fein members have been voted into the Northern Ireland Assembly. I'm saying that supporting the IRA is illegal in the UK and membership of it is banned.

That is all true and the Celtic fans singing these songs should be arrested under the Terrorism Act.

What happened to your views on freedom of speech ? I can't get my head around the fact that you appear to get all upset about Celtic fans chants, and yet on the 'Homophobic chanting' thread. you are strongly in favour of freedom of speech. In fact you said and I quote,' that people must absolutely have in this country the basic right to freedom of speech'.

[Eyrie]

Why should state-funded schools "encourage some values"? Supposing the value in question is socially unacceptable (eg supporting Hearts)? Religion should be taught at home, by the faith in question or by a private school, not at the public expense.


if there's a sizeable proportion of the population who want to use these schools then why shouldn't they? Is the state only there to serve a particular kind of person? And what value that's taught is socially unacceptable?
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

If there is a sizeable proportion of the population which wants to use these schools then the demand is there to set up a fee-paying school, rather than having the taxpayer provide it. Otherwise where would the line be drawn? Shouldn't there be Jewish or Muslim state schools as there are enough followers of those faiths, certainly in our major cities, to justify them?

As regards my socially unacceptable comment, it clearly wasn't aimed at Catholic schools (hence the remark about Hearts) but as a response to your generic support for schools to "encourage some values". Education is too important to be used as a tool to promote particular values favoured by a religion.

[DCI Gene Hunt]

'Scuse me chaps for coming in to the conversation a bit late and barging in, but what does discussing the pros/cons/personal views about faith schools have to do with an inept football authority failing for the nth occasion to tackle a football club shocklingly ignorant and complacent in letting its ignorant and bigoted fans sing pro-terrorist songs?

Gene

[Sir David Gray]

What happened to your views on freedom of speech ? I can't get my head around the fact that you appear to get all upset about Celtic fans chants, and yet on the 'Homophobic chanting' thread. you are strongly in favour of freedom of speech. In fact you said and I quote,' that people must absolutely have in this country the basic right to freedom of speech'.

Yes and you're absolutely correct to highlight this.

However, I have also been fairly consistent in other threads surrounding this subject in saying that freedom of speech laws should not be extended to allow people to say things which threaten the lives and safety of others or encouraging, promoting or inciting others to commit violence.

In my opinion, singing songs in support of a listed terrorist organisation, which has been responsible for murdering many innocent people over the past few decades falls into that category of inciting violence and therefore people's right to the freedom of speech should not allow them to show support for the IRA, or any other group which is presently named on the Home Office's list of proscribed organisations.


FH if only it were that easy !!

If there has been a conflict ( now finished ) and someone in Scotland eschews a view in word or song that does NOT tie in with prevailing views in Scotland ( i.e British policy and action were / are correct and Irish Nationalist / Republican aspirations and campaign were wrong ) and opines in the environ of a football ground a sympathy with and support for his view …you believe he should be arrested under the anti-terrorism act ??

This could open a whole can of worms !!!

People seem in agreement that the above is NOT sectarian …BUT OFFENSIVE….. ( this term was quickly patched together to ensure it was not JUST the Huns naked sectarianism being targeted ) in fact many in Scotland find the very sight of an Irish National Flag offensive.
Will that emblem be next to be deemed worthy of arrest?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion FH and I respect you appear to have strong views on this but I am not sure you have thought the whole thing through properly.

GGTTH

To answer your question about the Irish flag first. Of course it will never be an offence to display a national flag in public in this country.

I can see a clear difference between an Irish flag and a song about the IRA and I'm sure many Irish people do too. Most people in Ireland will be proud to display their country's flag but do not welcome any association with the IRA whatsoever.

Secondly, this isn't about people viewing British actions as correct and the other side, whoever that may be, as wrong.

If someone wished to express the opinion that British actions in Ireland have been wrong and the island of Ireland should be one, united sovereign state then I don't think anyone would expect that person to be arrested, punished or anything at all for that matter as it is a legitimate viewpoint.

What we are talking about here is people explicitly declaring their support for an organisation which has taken part in a campaign of violence, murder and brutality, over many years, against innocent civilians, whilst going about their business and bothering no-one.

I do have a problem with that and I think those people should be dealt with quite severely.

[Brizo]

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

If there is a sizeable proportion of the population which wants to use these schools then the demand is there to set up a fee-paying school, rather than having the taxpayer provide it. Otherwise where would the line be drawn? Shouldn't there be Jewish or Muslim state schools as there are enough followers of those faiths, certainly in our major cities, to justify them?

To turn your argument on its head if a sizeable proportion of the population want these schools , and they are of course taxpayers themselves , shouldnt they have a choice on the type of school available to their kids by virtue of their contributions to the tax coffers ? State faith schools in Embra face the same viability testing that non denom ones face , I know because my old primary St Pats was closed when pupil numbers got too low.

Interestingly what keeps many Catholic faith schools viable numbers wise is the large number of parents of other and no religions who choose to send their kids there. The huge popularity of Catholic schools with non Catholic parents is something the anti faith schools lobby usually like to give the rubber ear to as it doesnt sit well with their stereotyped opinions.

[Iggy Pope]

-why does it all come back to football ? 3 catholic high schools st tams, holyrood and st augustines. No condoms-no poofs,no abortions ,keep it out of schools This principle is nothing to do with football or Glasgow

Interesting.
I spent every minute of my education at faith schools in Edinburgh. Primary and secondary. My Primary school held the origins of our dear, dear club.
I can honestly say that they provided no schooling whatsoever on condoms, poofs or abortions. They did teach me one principle that I still hold dear though..........












I hate orange *******s!
:greengrin

[Stanton]

To answer your question about the Irish flag first. Of course it will never be an offence to display a national flag in public in this country.

I can see a clear difference between an Irish flag and a song about the IRA and I'm sure many Irish people do too. Most people in Ireland will be proud to display their country's flag but do not welcome any association with the IRA whatsoever.

Secondly, this isn't about people viewing British actions as correct and the other side, whoever that may be, as wrong.

If someone wished to express the opinion that British actions in Ireland have been wrong and the island of Ireland should be one, united sovereign state then I don't think anyone would expect that person to be arrested, punished or anything at all for that matter as it is a legitimate viewpoint.

What we are talking about here is people explicitly declaring their support for an organisation which has taken part in a campaign of violence, murder and brutality, over many years, against innocent civilians, whilst going about their business and bothering no-one.

I do have a problem with that and I think those people should be dealt with quite severely.

I know what you are getting at buddy ( being a wee bit devil's advocate here ) :greengrin BOTH sides accuse the other of fulfilling the role I have made Bold ...so by that very token ....can we take it that a campaign to outlaw support for the Republican side because it offends people...could possible be followed up with a campaign to outlaw support for the British / Unionist position as that offends the other group :confused:

[Eyrie]

To turn your argument on its head if a sizeable proportion of the population want these schools and they are of course taxpayers themselves shouldnt they have a choice on the type of school available to their children based on their substantial contributions to the tax coffers ? State faith schools in Embra face the same viability testing that non denom ones face , I know because my old primary St Pats was closed when pupil numbers got too low.

Interestingly what keeps many Catholic faith schools viable numbers wise is the large number of parents of other and no religions who choose to send their kids there. The huge popularity of Catholic schools with non Catholic parents is something the anti faith schools lobby usually like to give the rubber ear to as it doesnt sit well with their stereotyped opinions.
So you'd be in favour of faith schools for any religion with sufficient numbers? I can see no logical bar to that when one branch of Christianity has its own schools.

On your second point, I'd be interested to know why Catholic faith schools are able to provide a higher standard of education and attract non-Catholics. I'd take some convincing that it is the religion, but could it be greater parental commitment or better teachers?

[Iggy Pope]

To turn your argument on its head if a sizeable proportion of the population want these schools , and they are of course taxpayers themselves , shouldnt they have a choice on the type of school available to their kids by virtue of their contributions to the tax coffers ? State faith schools in Embra face the same viability testing that non denom ones face , I know because my old primary St Pats was closed when pupil numbers got too low.

Interestingly what keeps many Catholic faith schools viable numbers wise is the large number of parents of other and no religions who choose to send their kids there. The huge popularity of Catholic schools with non Catholic parents is something the anti faith schools lobby usually like to give the rubber ear to as it doesnt sit well with their stereotyped opinions.

Interesting. When were you there? Any time between '68 and '75?

[Elephant Stone]

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

If there is a sizeable proportion of the population which wants to use these schools then the demand is there to set up a fee-paying school, rather than having the taxpayer provide it. Otherwise where would the line be drawn? Shouldn't there be Jewish or Muslim state schools as there are enough followers of those faiths, certainly in our major cities, to justify them?

As regards my socially unacceptable comment, it clearly wasn't aimed at Catholic schools (hence the remark about Hearts) but as a response to your generic support for schools to "encourage some values". Education is too important to be used as a tool to promote particular values favoured by a religion.

Catholic families pay tax too, Eyrie. They make up a large portion of the population and the state exists to serve everyone.

If there were enough Muslim/Jewish families in concentrated areas then I don't see why not. If I was starting from scratch I probably would be less inclined to have faith schools but the RC faith schools exist happily and successfully all over the UK at the moment and it would be ludicrous to have them torn down for the "reasons" offered in this thread which are no more than pathetic smears at best.

[Eyrie]

Catholic families pay tax too, Eyrie. They make up a large portion of the population and the state exists to serve everyone.
Which could be taken to mean "and not just one particular minority faith" :wink:


If there were enough Muslim/Jewish families in concentrated areas then I don't see why not. If I was starting from scratch I probably would be less inclined to have faith schools
Fair enough on both counts.


but the RC faith schools exist happily and successfully all over the UK at the moment and it would be ludicrous to have them torn down for the "reasons" offered in this thread which are no more than pathetic smears at best.
I'd hardly class my preference to keep private religions out of public schools a smear of any description.

[Elephant Stone]

Which could be taken to mean "and not just one particular minority faith" :wink:



It obviously doesn't. :confused:

[Brizo]

So you'd be in favour of faith schools for any religion with sufficient numbers? I can see no logical bar to that when one branch of Christianity has its own schools.

On your second point, I'd be interested to know why Catholic faith schools are able to provide a higher standard of education and attract non-Catholics. I'd take some convincing that it is the religion, but could it be greater parental commitment or better teachers?

Re your first paragraph yes. If a substantial section of the taxpaying population in say parts of Bradford or East London were Muslim and funded local education through their taxes if they want a Muslim faith based option I think thats perfectly acceptable.

Re your second pera I make the point of their popularity with huge numbers of non Catholics to counter some of the stereotyped outdated criticism aimed at them. If they were hammering home some hardline "no poofs , no condoms" line , to quote a previous poster , I doubt very much if Protestant , atheist and a great many Catholic parents would send their kids there. I dont know why they are so popular but find it strange that so many people want to do away with what has proven to be a very successful and popular parental education option.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Have a look at this then.http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/counter-terrorism/proscribed-terror-groups/proscribed-groups?view=Binary I'm not saying that the IRA doesn't have support in the UK, that's why Martin McGuinness and other Sinn Fein members have been voted into the Northern Ireland Assembly. I'm saying that supporting the IRA is illegal in the UK and membership of it is banned.That is all true and the Celtic fans singing these songs should be arrested under the Terrorism Act. its not illegal to support or be a card carrying member of Sinn Fein in these isles.....

[lapsedhibee]

It's Bilbao fans who sing pro-ETA songs.

Indeed. Just wondered why the poster quoted appeared to believe otherwise. (He didn't answer.)

[Brebners Bookie]

It's not a matter of the people at the top "bottling it". They aren't afraid to take action. They simply don't want to take action because they're bigots themselves.

No serious action will ever be taken against Celtic or Rangers on the matter and excuses will forever continue to be made to defend this monstrosity.

Dont agree with this. How could the people at the top be bigots towards Celtic and Rangers? They are bottling it but more because they are afrid to upset the two biggest clubs in the country and so will make their laws to suit them. As we have already seen with gers UEFA dont share that view and i hope they continue fulfill what the SFA/SPL should be doing and hammer them every time these songs are heard in Europe.

[CFC]

But the fact that when Scotland play England at rugby union there will be no talk of arrests and bans (even though the club in question Celtic has been let off in this instance) just sums up the discriminatory environment facing football supporters in Scotland.I don't see what your point is here, Rugby does not have any history of bigotry unlike the OF wankfest. What would Rugby fans need arresting for?

[southern hibby]

I for one actually feel sorry for Rangers and Celtic fans, up to a point because their Parents (Well the ones that know their parents) drag their children up with this DRACONIAN attitude to the OPPOSITION. They have nothing better in their sorry pityful little existance than RANGERS / CELTIC / BUCKFAST WINE or RELIGION. Because of this sorry state of affairs they find it hard to get out of this routine. They ALWAYS blame someone else for EVERYTHING, rather than Manning Up and actually trying to better their families or their clubs. Lets be honest here they think they are the best fans in the world (Celtic) when all they are doing is tarnishing their clubs reputation, (and Rangers arn't much better). Northern Ireland has after many years of TROUBLES are now sitting down at the same table getting on with each other (up to a point) for the sake of their community and cultures, but more importantly for their families. Yet we have people who have never been across the 12 mile divide from our country to N.I. who actually believe they are something to do with that country. Sing about it at every oppertunity and spread vile hatred towards anyone who does not share their views. If a house was on fire in Glasgow and their children were caught insde (God Forbid) would they stop a fireman and say excuse me mate what religious / political views do you have, sorry they're not mine dont want you to help my kids?I have spent the last 20 years in the Royal Navy and everyday my uniform has a HIBS Badge on it. Totally illegal but my RELIGION IS EDINBURGH HIBERNIAN FOOTBALL CLUB. Ive served in Bosnia / Iraq / Falklands / Gulf / Europe and numerous other places and all ive ever tried to do is promote Hibs. I would ask one question to the hordes of the Ugly Sisters. DO YOU REALLY WANT YOUR CHILDREN GROWING UP WITH YOUR NEANDERTHALL ATTITUDES IN THIS DAY and AGE. As for the SFA, lets not beat about the bush here. Totally Sh*t themselves, no wonder the refs in our country arn't up to much when the have a Association with no back bone. Rant Over. GGTTH.

[Green_one]

I have heard bitter rangers fans propagating this arguement doesn't
Mean they are wrong though- Most European countries manage without faith schools why does Scotland need them?

Really? England has Church of England schools by the thousand, plus RC, Jewish, Sikh and Muslim schools. Many nations have faith based schools. Oddly few repeat the issues we have in Scotland. Does this not indicate that they are not the source of the problems we have?

I presume the Rangers will be objecting to the Gaelic school in Edinburgh

[Eyrie]

Re your first paragraph yes. If a substantial section of the taxpaying population in say parts of Bradford or East London were Muslim and funded local education through their taxes if they want a Muslim faith based option I think thats perfectly acceptable.
Again fair enough.

But where should we draw the line about schools being set up to promote particular values in addition to providing an education? Should Scottish Tories be allowed to set up schools to indoctrinate kids in their values, given that they represent a larger proportion of the Scottish electorate than Muslims?


Re your second pera I make the point of their popularity with huge numbers of non Catholics to counter some of the stereotyped outdated criticism aimed at them. If they were hammering home some hardline "no poofs , no condoms" line , to quote a previous poster , I doubt very much if Protestant , atheist and a great many Catholic parents would send their kids there. I dont know why they are so popular but find it strange that so many people want to do away with what has proven to be a very successful and popular parental education option.
It seems to be very difficult to identify why they are a success, which is a pity because it would provide a template for other schools to follow. This is quite a separate issue to whether there should be faith-based schools, since it gets back to the purpose of schools - to provide the best possible education for the pupils.

[Joe Baker II]

I'll give that as much respect as I did your previous statments on here claiming you regularly hear pro-IRA stuff at ER, absolutely none. Yet again you are making stuff up to suit your agenda. Do you ever post about anything positive to do with Hibs? We know the answer to that one don't we?

I do clarify that I never said that one regularly hears "pro-IRA stuff at ER" just that it has been heard in my time supporting Hibs and not just in the distant past. And challenge you to find a link that says otherwise.

There is nothing I have made up - you are just one of the many Hibs.net posters who does not like hearing anything that does not suit their own view!

And your point on positive posts is irrelevant - and also actions speak louder than words and I have just bought half season ticket this week!

[Joe Baker II]

I can see a clear difference between an Irish flag and a song about the IRA and I'm sure many Irish people do too. Most people in Ireland will be proud to display their country's flag but do not welcome any association with the IRA whatsoever.

.

The Irish Republic flag is recognised as a result of the IRA's fight against British rule so there is actually no difference.

There might be a diffeerence in singing specifically about the IRA post-Treaty but many would disagree - but that is a different point.

[Hibercelona]

Dont agree with this. How could the people at the top be bigots towards Celtic and Rangers? They are bottling it but more because they are afrid to upset the two biggest clubs in the country and so will make their laws to suit them. As we have already seen with gers UEFA dont share that view and i hope they continue fulfill what the SFA/SPL should be doing and hammer them every time these songs are heard in Europe.

That doesn't make any sense.

Why on Earth would they be afraid of them? They're just football clubs.

When are we going to accept that the people at the top simply don't care. It would be so easy for them to take action...... but naw.

[marinello59]

I do clarify that I never said that one regularly hears "pro-IRA stuff at ER" just that it has been heard in my time supporting Hibs and not just in the distant past. And challenge you to find a link that says otherwise.

There is nothing I have made up - you are just one of the many Hibs.net posters who does not like hearing anything that does not suit their own view!

And your point on positive posts is irrelevant - and also actions speak louder than words and I have just bought half season ticket this week!

Rubbish. I know our support are no angels. You seem to have backtracked somewhat on your original claims about pro-IRA stuff being sung at Easter Road.When you next feel motivated to post by claiming to personally know Hibs fans who were active terrorists then I will feel free to call you a liar.
My point on positive posts is valid. You rarely post on anything other than a put down of Hibs or a defense of the Old Firm. You may actually have mentioned the game of football at some point but I can't remember it.

[Sir David Gray]

The Irish Republic flag is recognised as a result of the IRA's fight against British rule so there is actually no difference.

There might be a diffeerence in singing specifically about the IRA post-Treaty but many would disagree - but that is a different point.

The flag of Ireland symbolises a lasting peace between Catholics and Protestants. I don't understand how you can think that there is no difference between flying that flag and singing songs in support of the IRA.

And apart from anything else, are you suggesting that every time an Irish person flies their country's flag, they're actually showing an act of defiance towards the UK and, in a round about way, they're showing support for the IRA's fight against British rule?

Of course that isn't true in the slightest, which was my point.

Yes there are many people (Celtic fans) who abuse the Irish flag and use it provocatively, in the same way that there are many people (Rangers fans) who abuse the British flag and use it provocatively but its not correct to say that there is no difference between displaying the Irish flag and singing a song in support of the IRA.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Barcelona fans interrupted a minutes silence for Madrid bombings in 2004 at Parkhead with derogatory chants about Madrilenos , incidentally it was observed fully by Celtic fans at that game.

Your Hibs fans analogy is not wrong but I have also met Hibs fans in Northern Irlenad who have previously been in both the Official and Provisional IRA - obviously were not killed but some have had injuries.


There's a certain pub in Falls Road with a Hibs pennant behind the bar. There are Hibs down the Falls.

[Paisley Hibby]

I do clarify that I never said that one regularly hears "pro-IRA stuff at ER" just that it has been heard in my time supporting Hibs and not just in the distant past. And challenge you to find a link that says otherwise.

There is nothing I have made up - you are just one of the many Hibs.net posters who does not like hearing anything that does not suit their own view!

And your point on positive posts is irrelevant - and also actions speak louder than words and I have just bought half season ticket this week!

You've shifted a wee bit methinks.

Here's one example of what you have posted. I agree, you didn't say that you regularly hear pro IRA singing it at ER. The problem was that you were agreeing with Paul McBride - and he was suggesting that this is the case. it was also sad to see any Hibs Fan say that they don't have a problem with such singing. As far as I recall, you were pretty much on your own with that view.


Thread: Paul McBride on Sportsound
by Joe Baker II

Replies
226
Views
16,534

As per post on another thread heard some Hibs fans shout Up the Ra when we played Hearts last season - stress do not have a problem with this but like it or not McBride is not wrong.

And saying...

[Stanton]

My two cents worth :cb

Before I start I will let it be known that I am pretty well an atheist and don’t believe in God, though recognize the very many good religious people who do a lot of good work in the world from the various religious faiths , so if you DO believe …good for you but I just don’t get it :

But to the topic at hand , WE in the UK ( well I am British but now live in USA ) have pretty much had 40 years of continual press coverage ( as you would expect considering the British were one of the belligerents ) demonizing the Republican side , lionizing the British role as some sort of mediator between two religously motivated warring factions. With this in mind it is no wonder that British people have been pretty well conditioned to believe and take the side of “ our boys “.

The truth of the conflict is very different indeed from this portrayal that you average Joe in the street has and unless you make it your business to read , study and exam the issue you will obviously believe this to be the case.

The British participated in some shocking acts in Ireland
The Republicans ( well I don’t really have to detail there’s as there has been wall to wall media coverage on them all )
The Loyalist committed some APPALLING acts ( Shankill Butchers possibly the most horrible of all the troubles )

Depending on your position regarding the conflict …praise for ANY of the above could be “ OFFENSIVE” to various people.

The law being drafted was initially to address the nakedly and embarrassing sectarian singing that was prevalent in the Scottish game ( lets be honest – Rangers ), however they ( Rangers Fans ) quickly pointed back at IRA singing from Celtic Fans …a quick review struggled to find any sectarian content in Rebel songs ….so they hit on the “ Offensive Singing“ option …but where will this end is what I cant understand.

Many different strands of opinion find many different viewpoints offensive ….ME ….I don’t give a **** what any of them sing.:bye:

[Dinkydoo]

I do clarify that I never said that one regularly hears "pro-IRA stuff at ER" just that it has been heard in my time supporting Hibs and not just in the distant past. And challenge you to find a link that says otherwise.


You really are a 'piece of work aren't you.

Why should anyone else have to disprove the rubbish you come out with, surely you should be the one who has to provide evidence in support of your argument.

As an aside, why would us NOT singing offensive songs make the headlines?

"Hibs fans in no sectarian singing shock"

Hardly front or back page material now is it.

[Paisley Hibby]

My two cents worth :cb

Before I start I will let it be known that I am pretty well an atheist and don’t believe in God, though recognize the very many good religious people who do a lot of good work in the world from the various religious faiths , so if you DO believe …good for you but I just don’t get it :

But to the topic at hand , WE in the UK ( well I am British but now live in USA ) have pretty much had 40 years of continual press coverage ( as you would expect considering the British were one of the belligerents ) demonizing the Republican side , lionizing the British role as some sort of mediator between two religously motivated warring factions. With this in mind it is no wonder that British people have been pretty well conditioned to believe and take the side of “ our boys “.

The truth of the conflict is very different indeed from this portrayal that you average Joe in the street has and unless you make it your business to read , study and exam the issue you will obviously believe this to be the case.

The British participated in some shocking acts in Ireland
The Republicans ( well I don’t really have to detail there’s as there has been wall to wall media coverage on them all )
The Loyalist committed some APPALLING acts ( Shankill Butchers possibly the most horrible of all the troubles )

Depending on your position regarding the conflict …praise for ANY of the above could be “ OFFENSIVE” to various people.

The law being drafted was initially to address the nakedly and embarrassing sectarian singing that was prevalent in the Scottish game ( lets be honest – Rangers ), however they ( Rangers Fans ) quickly pointed back at IRA singing from Celtic Fans …a quick review struggled to find any sectarian content in Rebel songs ….so they hit on the “ Offensive Singing“ option …but where will this end is what I cant understand.

Many different strands of opinion find many different viewpoints offensive ….ME ….I don’t give a **** what any of them sing.:bye:

You make a lot of good points. However, my position on singing is simple - there's no justification in any context for singing songs in support of any terrorist organisation. I take exception to the suggestions made that Hibs Fans do this - we do not.

Like most Hibs Fans, I think the OF fans' obsession with Irish political history is pathetic. I suspect most of them don't even have a simple grasp of the background to what they are singing about. It's all just tribal mythology ****. Sadly, there are some who would like to suck us into this rubbish. They won't succeed. We are a 21st Century Football Team playing in Scotland. Yes, our origins are as a club for Irish immigrants in Scotland but that was over 130 years ago. In 2011 it is enough that we acknowledge our origins in our name, our colours and the harp on our badge. What really matters to us is football and, above all, beating the Yams.

[matty_f]

I can only assume that the Rangers fans took this decision as a licence to go mental on the sectarian stuff without any fear of reprisal.

I'm not one to get offended by the songs or that, but there were clearly a number of sectarian songs being sung today and I suppose the Rangers support will be thinking that if Celtc can get away with it, then why shouldn't they?

[Stanton]

I can only assume that the Rangers fans took this decision as a licence to go mental on the sectarian stuff without any fear of reprisal.

I'm not one to get offended by the songs or that, but there were clearly a number of sectarian songs being sung today and I suppose the Rangers support will be thinking that if Celtc can get away with it, then why shouldn't they?

Yeah perhaps though I think the Huns would have sung sectarian songs regardless.
The point I am making is that the government were drafting a law to outlaw sectarian singing.
When it became apparent that this would primarily effect Rangers and no one else they had to be seen to " even things up " so cobbled some additional verbage in to include " OFFENSIVE " singing .....this is the bit I struggle with ...." OFFENSIVE TO WHO " as many different strands of opinion find many different things offensive , so it really opens up a can of worms.

Is it offensive to sing songs in support of Irish Nationalism?
What about Scottish Nationalism ...could that offend some?
What about Weegie tramps ...would that be offensive?
Sheep****gers perhaps?
Anti English singing ?


The law was to stamp out sectarian singing but now they have added this BROAD TERM so that the CULPRITS ( Huns ) don't feel they are being singled out .....I say single them out , after all they were the guilty party.

[Sir David Gray]

UEFA has fined Celtic £12,700 for singing "illicit chants" against Rennes in the Europa League.

Clearly UEFA aren't taking this as lightly as the SPL, although a fine of this amount is hardly going to cripple a club of Celtic's size.

[Saorsa]

UEFA has fined Celtic £12,700 for singing "illicit chants" against Rennes in the Europa League.

Clearly UEFA aren't taking this as lightly as the SPL, although a fine of this amount is hardly going to cripple a club of Celtic's size.Odd how they have concluded differently tae the SPL isn't it :rolleyes: unfortunately the fine is naewhere near big enough, maybe a zero will be added when they do it again..

[Hibs Class]

UEFA has fined Celtic £12,700 for singing "illicit chants" against Rennes in the Europa League.

Clearly UEFA aren't taking this as lightly as the SPL, although a fine of this amount is hardly going to cripple a club of Celtic's size.

Size of the fine doesn't matter - Celtc are now officially accredited, UEFA-endorsed, bona fide sectarian bigots. Cue McBride to explain why this is further evidence of the anti-catholic agenda.

[Joe Baker II]

You've shifted a wee bit methinks.

Here's one example of what you have posted. I agree, you didn't say that you regularly hear pro IRA singing it at ER. The problem was that you were agreeing with Paul McBride - and he was suggesting that this is the case. it was also sad to see any Hibs Fan say that they don't have a problem with such singing. As far as I recall, you were pretty much on your own with that view.


Thread: Paul McBride on Sportsound
by Joe Baker II

Replies
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16,534

As per post on another thread heard some Hibs fans shout Up the Ra when we played Hearts last season - stress do not have a problem with this but like it or not McBride is not wrong.

And saying...

This does not answer the question!

[Joe Baker II]

Rubbish. I know our support are no angels. You seem to have backtracked somewhat on your original claims about pro-IRA stuff being sung at Easter Road.When you next feel motivated to post by claiming to personally know Hibs fans who were active terrorists then I will feel free to call you a liar.

My point on positive posts is valid. You rarely post on anything other than a put down of Hibs or a defense of the Old Firm. You may actually have mentioned the game of football at some point but I can't remember it.

My statement that there are Hibs fans who have fought in the various bodies that constitute the "IRA" is 100% true and I have even been with one of them to ER (who incidentally was to my understanding in the Official rather than Provisional IRA) several times. I also know an ex-Provo who got to see Hibs when he could. I fail to see why this should offend you so much?

Are you seriously saying that everyone who has fought in the various forms of the IRA merits the description of "active terrorist" with no caveats - I would not seriously claim that of those who enlist in the British Army and it is exactly the same with the IRA.

You have not made any reference to a post that claimed chants that could be construed as support of the IRA have been heard large-scale from Hibs fans in recent years, I said they have been heard (I know not often and from a very small minority - as Celtic could and do claim when they want to).

BTW I think you will find that of my 3000+ posts on here most are what even the more OF-obsessed posters like yourself would call football-related.

[marinello59]

My statement that there are Hibs fans who have fought in the various bodies that constitute the "IRA" is 100% true and I have even been with one of them to ER (who incidentally was to my understanding in the Official rather than Provisional IRA) several times. I also know an ex-Provo who got to see Hibs when he could. I fail to see why this should offend you so much?

Are you seriously saying that everyone who has fought in the various forms of the IRA merits the description of "active terrorist" - I would seriously claim that of those who enlist in the British Army and it is exactly the same with the IRA.

You have not made any reference to a post that claimed chants that could be construed as support of the IRA have been heard large-scale from Hibs fans in recent years, I said they have been heard but not often albeit from a very small minority (but Celtic could and do claim the same when they want to).

BTW I think you will find that of my 3000+ posts on here most are what the OF obsessed would call football-related.

It doesn't offend me because it has no relevance. If a member of the IRA supports Hibs, Celtic, Arsenal, Barcelona or whoever what difference does it make? It seems a strange thing for somebody to suddenly throw in to the conversation. Using your own logic from your previous post I challenge you to prove you are not a liar. You can continue to support Celtics lawyer all you want but at least do it with solid facts.
I have no intention of getting in to the ins and outs of Northern Irish politics with you. It isn't something I am overly obsessed with to be honest. Go and discuss it on the dugout if you want, cos it sure it ain't anything to do with football.

[Joe Baker II]

You really are a 'piece of work aren't you.

Why should anyone else have to disprove the rubbish you come out with, surely you should be the one who has to provide evidence in support of your argument.

As an aside, why would us NOT singing offensive songs make the headlines?

"Hibs fans in no sectarian singing shock"

Hardly front or back page material now is it.

I have quoted some of the games concerned - what more evidence do you need (I am not sad enough to record things on mobiles etc!)?

Do not understand the point in your last 3 lines.

[Brizo]

BTW I think you will find that of my 3000+ posts on here most are what the OF obsessed would call football-related.

I cant claim to have read but a fraction of your 3000 plus posts but those that I have have either been of the OF apologist vein or wind up outrageous p@sh. Cant ever recall a post about the pros and cons of managers / players or about anything to do with games or results.

I generally disagree with the sentiments of the OF fans who come on here but at least they have the courage of their convinctions to be honest about their fitba allegiances.

Your ploy of masquerading as a Hibbie under a Hibs legends name and avatar is particularly snide and invidious.

[Joe Baker II]

You make a lot of good points. However, my position on singing is simple - there's no justification in any context for singing songs in support of any terrorist organisation. I take exception to the suggestions made that Hibs Fans do this - we do not.

Like most Hibs Fans, I think the OF fans' obsession with Irish political history is pathetic. I suspect most of them don't even have a simple grasp of the background to what they are singing about. It's all just tribal mythology ****. Sadly, there are some who would like to suck us into this rubbish. They won't succeed. We are a 21st Century Football Team playing in Scotland. Yes, our origins are as a club for Irish immigrants in Scotland but that was over 130 years ago. In 2011 it is enough that we acknowledge our origins in our name, our colours and the harp on our badge. What really matters to us is football and, above all, beating the Yams.

Sadly it suits a lot of Hibs fans to believe your stereotype of OF fans.

[Stanton]

Size of the fine doesn't matter - Celtc are now officially accredited, UEFA-endorsed, bona fide sectarian bigots. Cue McBride to explain why this is further evidence of the anti-catholic agenda.

An “ ILLICIT “ CHANT does not equate to a sectarian bigot ..sorry my friend but your leap from one to the other is flawed

[Dinkydoo]

I have quoted some of the games concerned - what more evidence do you need (I am not sad enough to record things on mobiles etc!)?

Do not understand the point in your last 3 lines.

You said:


I do clarify that I never said that one regularly hears "pro-IRA stuff at ER" just that it has been heard in my time supporting Hibs and not just in the distant past. And challenge you to find a link that says otherwise.

I said:




As an aside, why would us NOT singing offensive songs make the headlines?

"Hibs fans in no sectarian singing shock"

Hardly front or back page material now is it.

Which part don't you understand?

The key part is where you said "and challenge you to find a link that says otherwise". Why would there be an article about us not singing offensive songs?

[Hibs Class]

An “ ILLICIT “ CHANT does not equate to a sectarian bigot ..sorry my friend but your leap from one to the other is flawed

Quite happy with my conclusion. By all means regard it is as flawed; that doesn't make it so.

[Stanton]

Quite happy with my conclusion. By all means regard it is as flawed; that doesn't make it so.

The point I am making is that to be FOR something that is non sectarian ( Irish Freedom from British Rule ) and to shout and sing support for that objective and those who fought to attain it ...does not square with sectariansim ....it may be deemed objectionable by people who do not share that view , but where does it all end

[joe breezy]

:agree:

If Catholic schools were the cause of the infirms poisonous hatred every city in mainland UK would have similar problems because there are Catholic faith schools in every city from London to Dundee. If non denom schools were the answer then logically the bigotry would only emanate from the Celtc side as the Gers fans would be all ecumenical and tolerant from their time at non denom school.

Bigotry isnt taught in any school, faith or non denom , its taught in the home. And the reason such pronounced fitba related sectarianism is only a problem in the west of scotland is because the infirm perpetuate it condemning it with one hand while encouraging their "traditions" with the other.

To blame Catholic schools for the infirms problems displays exactly the same bigoted ignorance that the OF fans display.

I'm against all Faith schools - completely ridiculous that these places still exist but I suppose when people weren't aware of science they need to believe in a non existent entity

It's like having schools for children that believe in fairies

[Paisley Hibby]

This does not answer the question!

You said you have never claimed that Hibs Fans regularly sing pro IRA stuff and challenged the poster to show a post of yours saying that. What I was pointing out was that in the post I quoted, you said that "Paul McBride is not wrong". Paul McBride was claiming that we do regularly sing IRA stuff. Are you now saying that you don't agree with what he said?

[Paisley Hibby]

Sadly it suits a lot of Hibs fans to believe your stereotype of OF fans.

Sadly, it's not a stereotype.