(Hopefully NHC) Homophobic Chanting

[Future17]

Take note:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-16011008

[ScottB]

Take note:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-16011008

Look forward to the majority of the Hearts support being charged with that at the Derby then...

[SouthamptonHibs]

it wasn't me! ha ha

i was at the Pompey v Brighton game in at the start of the season, loads of banter with the Brighton fans with gay jokes! What aloud of nonsence getting charged for signing songs, it's just banter!

[persevere1875]

Paul Hartley's still Gay though , Isnt he ??:dunno: :wink: :greengrin

[MCameron]

What a load of nonsence getting charged for signing songs, it's just banter!

Do you think this guy in the EEN article from last week (below) sees it as banter?

It's the same as bigotry, racism and all other forms of intolerance. The youngsters hear this **** being sung and it breeds hatred.


A man was left with a broken jaw after a suspected homophobic attack in Edinburgh on Saturday night.
The 24-year-old was walking with friends on Waverley Bridge when they were confronted by three men who shouted abuse at them.
One of them punched the victim, knocking him to the ground, before running off towards Princes Street.
Police described it as a "cowardly and vicious" assault, and urged witnesses to contact them.
A spokesman for Lothian and Borders Police said: "Anyone who was in or around Waverley Bridge about midnight this morning and saw anything suspicious, or who can help identify the suspects, is asked to contact police immediately.
"Lothian and Borders Police will not tolerate hate crime in any form and will robustly deal with anyone found to be responsible."
One of the suspects was described as black, in his early 20s, 5ft 6ins and of medium build. He was wearing a black hooded top, black and yellow scarf and black trousers.
The second man was white, tall, about 21 and slim. He had dark blond hair and was wearing a red top.
A third man was described as white, aged 20 to 25, about 5ft 7ins, of average build and wearing a dark hooded top.

[Aaron]

Good. Football has come a long way to stamp out racist chanting, now it is time for to get rid of homophobic chanting.

[Sir David Gray]

Completely impossible to give a judgement without knowing exactly what was said.

Giving a view on a particular issue should never land you in any trouble, but I fear that's the way things are going in this country.

The same with chants at games towards men who have a pink t-shirt on. Is anyone going to be seriously offended by that?

I hope that, for this guy to receive this kind of punishment, he has said something that is absolutely disgraceful and it's not just the case where the hyper-sensitive, politically correct crowd have won again to silence the basic right, that people absolutely must have in this country, to freedom of speech.

[Dashing Bob S]

I was at West Ham-Brighton game some years back, with the Hammers fans singing 'does your boyfriend know your here?' The Brighton fans responded with a camp chorus of ooohhs with exagerated limp wrists. It was all very funny. It was interesting the way they dealt with that kind of assumption, was to embrace it and have a laugh. It's similar to the way non-Jewish Spurs fans embrace that designation with 'Yid Army.'

I'd hope that vicious chants denigrating players would be punished, but that there is still room for the sort of banter described above.

[Aaron]

I hope that, for this guy to receive this kind of punishment, he has said something that is absolutely disgraceful and it's not just the case where the hyper-sensitive, politically correct crowd have won again to silence the basic right, that people absolutely must have in this country, to freedom of speech.

I don't think it is a case of someone being "hyper-sensitive or politically correct". Unfortunately there are many young people around the world committing suicide because they are being bullied and ridiculed in school. If kids see grown adults singing homophobic chants at football matches then this is only going to spread to the schools.

Making a mockery of someone's sexuality is not and should not be seen to be acceptable.....end of.

[SouthamptonHibs]

Do you think this guy in the EEN article from last week (below) sees it as banter?

It's the same as bigotry, racism and all other forms of intolerance. The youngsters hear this **** being sung and it breeds hatred.


A man was left with a broken jaw after a suspected homophobic attack in Edinburgh on Saturday night.
The 24-year-old was walking with friends on Waverley Bridge when they were confronted by three men who shouted abuse at them.
One of them punched the victim, knocking him to the ground, before running off towards Princes Street.
Police described it as a "cowardly and vicious" assault, and urged witnesses to contact them.
A spokesman for Lothian and Borders Police said: "Anyone who was in or around Waverley Bridge about midnight this morning and saw anything suspicious, or who can help identify the suspects, is asked to contact police immediately.
"Lothian and Borders Police will not tolerate hate crime in any form and will robustly deal with anyone found to be responsible."
One of the suspects was described as black, in his early 20s, 5ft 6ins and of medium build. He was wearing a black hooded top, black and yellow scarf and black trousers.
The second man was white, tall, about 21 and slim. He had dark blond hair and was wearing a red top.
A third man was described as white, aged 20 to 25, about 5ft 7ins, of average build and wearing a dark hooded top.


What has singing songs at football got to do with ta homophobic attack you just mentioned above? think you've went off in the wrong direction

[Arch Stanton]

I was at West Ham-Brighton game some years back, with the Hammers fans singing 'does your boyfriend know your here?' The Brighton fans responded with a camp chorus of ooohhs with exagerated limp wrists. It was all very funny. It was interesting the way they dealt with that kind of assumption, was to embrace it and have a laugh. It's similar to the way non-Jewish Spurs fans embrace that designation with 'Yid Army.'

I'd hope that vicious chants denigrating players would be punished, but that there is still room for the sort of banter described above.

Some people respond to abuse with humour. That doesn't excuse the abuse does it?

You seem to suggest that it does.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Look further down the bbc link : Puffin found at sexual clinic dies : :greengrin

[joe breezy]

Ha ha, doesn't concern the Hibs support...

Paul Hartley is gaay - **** song in response to their even ****ter song

Agree with Bob though, football is a place for banter and if the grounds become completely sanitised of such humour it would be sad

For every funny chant there's a few that are cringeworthy though

[Lucius Apuleius]

As an aside, was just sent this.:confused:

The new jambo Clock

http://lovedbdb.com/nudemenClock/index2.html

[half.time.draw.]

The word has gone mad the PC brigade can GTF....

[hibbill2002]

The word has gone mad the PC brigade can GTF....

poof! :asshole::tee hee:

[Pretty Boy]

The word has gone mad the PC brigade can GTF....

So whilst having no real info on the case you have decided this is the doing of the PC brigade, whatever the **** that is. The old PC gone mad line is far more tiring than anything the 'PC brigade' could ever come up with.

Is it anymore acceptable for a player to be singled out as a 'poofy *******' than it would be to call a black player a 'black *******'? Would you defend racism under the PC brigade line.

Football has come a long way since Mark Walters had bananas thrown at him, its maybe about time we came into the 21st century regarding homophobia as well. Sadly when I posted about similar in the holy ground forum a couple of months back it took about 4 posts to descend into schoolboy jokes about homosexuality, frankly I don't expect any different this time. Some folk are stuck in the stone age.

[MCameron]

What has singing songs at football got to do with ta homophobic attack you just mentioned above? think you've went off in the wrong direction

Are you being serious SH? Although the issue of homophobic attitudes isn't of course restricted to football it's a problem in our society but manifests itself in the supposed 'macho' atmosphere of football stadium. Some people seem to find it 'banter' that doesn't affect anyone but I disagree as it's a way that we introduce and reinforce views to youngsters whoe hear thousands singing about Paul Hartley 's sexuality and this in turn sets some kids prejudices as they grow up. So your'e right the article I posted from the EEN doesn't appear on the face of it have any link to football but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

The casual use of the terms poof or gay are seen as a bit of banter quite widely in our society - are these more acceptable that calling someone a paki or ******? Not to me. If there were a few seperate groups of friends in a room and in a seperate group there was someone from say India. Is it acceptable to say to your white pal 'shut it ya paki' as a bit of banter or would you think that might be inappropriate and might cause offence to the person in the other group? Replace 'paki' with 'poof' in this example is the answer still the same?

[Hibbyradge]

Completely impossible to give a judgement without knowing exactly what was said.

Giving a view on a particular issue should never land you in any trouble, but I fear that's the way things are going in this country.

The same with chants at games towards men who have a pink t-shirt on. Is anyone going to be seriously offended by that?

I hope that, for this guy to receive this kind of punishment, he has said something that is absolutely disgraceful and it's not just the case where the hyper-sensitive, politically correct crowd have won again to silence the basic right, that people absolutely must have in this country, to freedom of speech.

I'm sure that the person wearing the pink T-shirt wouldn't be particularly offended unless they were extremely thin skinned.

However, a gay person hearing the mockery could well be offended.

Imagine jokingly shouting something derogatory about being disabled to their able-bodied friend who happened to have an injured ankle. The able bodied person would just laugh it off, but it would still be offensive to someone with a serious disability.

[Hibrandenburg]

Some people respond to abuse with humour. That doesn't excuse the abuse does it?

You seem to suggest that it does.


Only the person being abused can decide if its abuse or banter.

[Aaron]

Watch this and tell me it is just 'banter'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdkNn3Ei-Lg

[Hibbyradge]

Watch this and tell me it is just 'banter'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdkNn3Ei-Lg

Gosh, Aaron , that's really powerful and extremely moving. I'm so pleased that you posted it.

Unfortunately, it won't resonate with many of those it needs to.

[Betty Boop]

Gosh, Aaron , that's really powerful and extremely moving. I'm so pleased that you posted it.

Unfortunately, it won't resonate with many of those it needs to.




Beautiful amazing video with such a strong message.

[ginger_rice]

I think that there is a fine line between "banter" and "abuse" what one person finds amusing others will find disgusting.

The problem is where to stop, do we get to a point where all the humour is removed from football because of the fear of offending someone ie Paul Gascoigne and the "who ate all the pies" or "cheer up Jim Jeffries" at Hampden in '07.

BTW in my opinion PC has gone crazy I have afro-Caribbean friends who are horrified at the use of chalkboard instead of blackboard for instance they reckon it sets race relations back years

[ScottB]

I don't see how making insults about someone's sexuality can be seen as 'banter' yet I'm sure all would agree making insults about someone's race / religion etc would be seen as the abuse it is.

Sooner or later this will be something the authorities turn their attention to. Label it as the work of 'the PC brigade' all you like (funny how the folk who use that term are generally the ones espousing the racist / homophobic / bigoted views). We constantly decry the Old Firm fans for their pointless hatred, we would rightly call out any clubs fans singing racist nonsense, so to try and draw a line in the sand and claim that actually, 'it's alright to slag off the gays, it's just banter' is pathetic.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Whatever people want to believe why do others constantly feel the need to enforce their beliefs as some sort of moral police force particularly on www.?

[ginger_rice]

I don't see how making insults about someone's sexuality can be seen as 'banter' yet I'm sure all would agree making insults about someone's race / religion etc would be seen as the abuse it is.

Sooner or later this will be something the authorities turn their attention to. Label it as the work of 'the PC brigade' all you like (funny how the folk who use that term are generally the ones espousing the racist / homophobic / bigoted views). We constantly decry the Old Firm fans for their pointless hatred, we would rightly call out any clubs fans singing racist nonsense, so to try and draw a line in the sand and claim that actually, 'it's alright to slag off the gays, it's just banter' is pathetic.

Scott I actually agree with you, the Paul Hartley thing for instance I find embarrassing. My point however is where exactly do we stop, I could get all hot and bothered about "banter" directed at overweight balding players or opposition supporters but don't.

I suppose that eventually we will get to a point where going to football will be like going to the cinema and the crowd will sit in silence the whole game, for fear of upsetting someone.....I don't know the world has changed and we just seem to be losing our ability to laugh at ourselves, but as I said before it's a fine line I suppose so best not to cross it at all.

[MCameron]

Whatever people want to believe why do others constantly feel the need to enforce their beliefs as some sort of moral police force particularly on www.?

Hitler had his beliefs too. I for one am thankful that some in society had the baws to police those intolerant views.

[Hibrandenburg]

Well thats Hitler been mentioned, guess this thread has reached it's climax.

[SouthamptonHibs]

Are you being serious SH? Although the issue of homophobic attitudes isn't of course restricted to football it's a problem in our society but manifests itself in the supposed 'macho' atmosphere of football stadium. Some people seem to find it 'banter' that doesn't affect anyone but I disagree as it's a way that we introduce and reinforce views to youngsters whoe hear thousands singing about Paul Hartley 's sexuality and this in turn sets some kids prejudices as they grow up. So your'e right the article I posted from the EEN doesn't appear on the face of it have any link to football but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

The casual use of the terms poof or gay are seen as a bit of banter quite widely in our society - are these more acceptable that calling someone a paki or ******? Not to me. If there were a few seperate groups of friends in a room and in a seperate group there was someone from say India. Is it acceptable to say to your white pal 'shut it ya paki' as a bit of banter or would you think that might be inappropriate and might cause offence to the person in the other group? Replace 'paki' with 'poof' in this example is the answer still the same?

Back to the singing at football! How can anyone gets upset at these songs "we can see you holding hands" or "does your boyfriend no your here"? These were the types of songs sung at the Pompey v Brighton game and the Saints v Brighton game! It was always be banter, if folk get offended with that then they best stay in the house, shut the curtains!

Those's songs are banter, the PC brigade have went off on one again! The world has gone mad

Hail Hail

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Hitler had his beliefs too. I for one am thankful that some in society had the baws to police those intolerant views. Oh dear! that'll be game over then!

[Sir David Gray]

I don't think it is a case of someone being "hyper-sensitive or politically correct". Unfortunately there are many young people around the world committing suicide because they are being bullied and ridiculed in school. If kids see grown adults singing homophobic chants at football matches then this is only going to spread to the schools.

Making a mockery of someone's sexuality is not and should not be seen to be acceptable.....end of.

There's many people who find the issue of homosexuality unacceptable. Surely, in a democratic country, if it's put forward in the correct and proper manner, then they should be perfectly entitled to express that opinion.

Whilst I agree that bullying and outright abuse are not things that should ever be tolerated, it can never be right to legislate against genuine points of view and that's the way I fear this country is going.

[Pete]

There's many people who find the issue of homosexuality unacceptable. Surely, in a democratic country, if it's put forward in the correct and proper manner, then they should be perfectly entitled to express that opinion.

Whilst I agree that bullying and outright abuse are not things that should ever be tolerated, it can never be right to legislate against genuine points of view and that's the way I fear this country is going.

Do you think chants at football matches are the proper manner for someone to voice their opinion on whether homosexuality is "right" in their eyes? That's what's being discussed here.

There are also many people who don't like the idea of non-whites living in the UK...and they even use correct and proper channels like politics to tell people their views. Are these opinions OK to express because they are doing it formally?

I think you're letting your views on the subject take you off on a slight tangent here. In my eyes you can't choose your sexuality any more than you can choose the colour of your skin so both forms of discrimination are exactly the same in my eyes. If its a religious framework that people are using to form these opinions then its this that is incompatible with modern society and needs to change...not the homosexuals.

[JennaFletcher]

I really didn't think Hibs fans would shout any homophobic remarks but the last home game in the WEST STAND I heard a guy - possibly in his mid 30s - call one of the players 'a wee F****T!' :rolleyes: I was so shocked and angry!! :grr:

I was going to confront him but then didn't know if that would be wise/safe going on a one woman crusade!

[frazeHFC]

I really didn't think Hibs fans would shout any homophobic remarks but the last home game in the WEST STAND I heard a guy - possibly in his mid 30s - call one of the players 'a wee F****T!' :rolleyes: I was so shocked and angry!! :grr:

I was going to confront him but then didn't know if that would be wise/safe going on a one woman crusade!

I know it shouldn't be said but i hear homophobic stuff all the time at football. Not gona lie i shouted something at the St Johnstone game. I know it shouldn't be said but it is the type of thing you hear all the time.

Not condoning it, but i think making it arrest worthy is going to catch people out because it can be said without thought, unlike racism where the person clearly knows what they are shouting.

[JennaFletcher]

I know it shouldn't be said but i hear homophobic stuff all the time at football. Not gona lie i shouted something at the St Johnstone game. I know it shouldn't be said but it is the type of thing you hear all the time.

Not condoning it, but i think making it arrest worthy is going to catch people out because it can be said without thought, unlike racism where the person clearly knows what they are shouting.

If you don't mind me asking what did you shout?

I see what you mean about people sometimes perhaps not maybe knowing the full effect of their words. This is obviously due to ignorance. I think there needs to be more education, better awareness & understanding. I get that some people can get frustrated at football, and this frustration and self-investment can evoke anger and outbursts that are not necessarily intentional. Definitely a lot of remarks are due to ignorance & lack of understanding. This definitely merits more being done about homophobic remarks at football, it's nothing to do with PC brigade or anything but to do with learning to be tolerant and respectable of other people regardless of any characteristic.

For example, imagine if there's a young kid at the game who thinks they are gay or are questioning their sexuality... surely it's best to encourage kids to talk about this openly? For example, say if there is a young gay male at the football and he hears anger and abuse about gays. He's just not gonna wanna talk to anyone about it if he thinks that is the type of reception he can expect for being gay. It causes built up frustration & sadness... and with the bullying/suicide that's been going on recently especially with young males, more needs to be done.

It's not just football though it starts from learning & education from a young age.

[frazeHFC]

If you don't mind me asking what did you shout?

I see what you mean about people sometimes perhaps not maybe knowing the full effect of their words. This is obviously due to ignorance. I think there needs to be more education, better awareness & understanding. I get that some people can get frustrated at football, and this frustration and self-investment can evoke anger and outbursts that are not necessarily intentional. Definitely a lot of remarks are due to ignorance & lack of understanding. This definitely merits more being done about homophobic remarks at football, it's nothing to do with PC brigade or anything but to do with learning to be tolerant and respectable of other people regardless of any characteristic.

For example, imagine if there's a young kid at the game who thinks they are gay or are questioning their sexuality... surely it's best to encourage kids to talk about this openly? For example, say if there is a young gay male at the football and he hears anger and abuse about gays. He's just not gonna wanna talk to anyone about it if he thinks that is the type of reception he can expect for being gay. It causes built up frustration & sadness... and with the bullying/suicide that's been going on recently especially with young males, more needs to be done.

It's not just football though it starts from learning & education from a young age.

When their left back, Callum Davidson i think, squared up to Spoony i shouted "get into that poof". (as in tackle not deck him :greengrin)

[JennaFletcher]

There's many people who find the issue of homosexuality unacceptable. Surely, in a democratic country, if it's put forward in the correct and proper manner, then they should be perfectly entitled to express that opinion.

Whilst I agree that bullying and outright abuse are not things that should ever be tolerated, it can never be right to legislate against genuine points of view and that's the way I fear this country is going.

What exactly is there for people to find unacceptable though? It's not really for others to decide what two consenting people get up to.

Also I find it slightly hypocritical to be against bullying and abuse when the tolerance & respect isn't in place?

I think that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs as long as those beliefs don't impact on the happiness of others...

[JennaFletcher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evnZci_2p5I

Does anyone recall this advert? Never seen it on TV before.

What do people think of adverts like this?

[frazeHFC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evnZci_2p5I

Does anyone recall this advert? Never seen it on TV before.

What do people think of adverts like this?

'Bender' :hilarious

I did laugh at the advert, i found it quite amusing. But at the same time it did show that his attitude was exactly the same in work and at the football, yet we think of it differently when it is not. Never really thought of it before. Good advert!

[Pete]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evnZci_2p5I

Does anyone recall this advert? Never seen it on TV before.

What do people think of adverts like this?

I'm pretty sure it was on TV for a while. It has quite an impact.

These threads about this subject are eye-opening. One liners about sex and naked men appear yet again...would the same jokes appear if we were discussing heterosexuality? You can make the actual mechanics of heterosexual physical activity sound pretty gross if you try.

At least some people are acknowledging it's wrong, even if they're not 100% sure why it is.
If people were to shout abuse using the fact that someone had green eyes, or used a blue ironing board as the derogatory term it would sound bizarre. Sexuality is that much of a non-issue nowadays it is equally bizarre.

[Diclonius]

Minute this thread got posted I made a wee bet with myself that the term "PC brigade" would be mentioned before we got to two pages.

Sadly I was proved right, and even moreso as it was mentioned twice. Oh well. :rolleyes:

[Pete]

'Bender' :hilarious

I did laugh at the advert, i found it quite amusing. But at the same time it did show that his attitude was exactly the same in work and at the football, yet we think of it differently when it is not. Never really thought of it before. Good advert!

Can you tell me why you found it so funny?

[Greentinted]

There's many people who find the issue of homosexuality unacceptable. Surely, in a democratic country, if it's put forward in the correct and proper manner, then they should be perfectly entitled to express that opinion.

Whilst I agree that bullying and outright abuse are not things that should ever be tolerated, it can never be right to legislate against genuine points of view and that's the way I fear this country is going.

Surely that's akin to saying that there are people who find the 'issue' of being of Asian ethnicity unacceptable, or the 'issue' of being disabled unacceptable, or perhaps the 'issue' of being a woman. I would suggest that 'finding homosexuality' unacceptable is merely just a polite way that bigots, ignoramii and fools express their baseless prejudice and that is what is truly unacceptable. Even in democratic society we acknowledge racism and sexism as being wrong so why should homophobia be any different?
A homophobe chooses his/her rationale - a homosexual man or woman does not choose his/her sexuality - it's simply a part of them, just like the colour of their skin.

[Beefster]

Whatever people want to believe why do others constantly feel the need to enforce their beliefs as some sort of moral police force particularly on www.?

It's no more 'forcing beliefs' on people than those who defend their right to be a bigot.


There's many people who find the issue of homosexuality unacceptable. Surely, in a democratic country, if it's put forward in the correct and proper manner, then they should be perfectly entitled to express that opinion.

Whilst I agree that bullying and outright abuse are not things that should ever be tolerated, it can never be right to legislate against genuine points of view and that's the way I fear this country is going.

There's also many people who hide behind religion/ignorance to justify their prejudices. I find it the ultimate irony that someone who believes in Christ, who 'loved everyone', and believes in personal freedom so strongly is so vocal in their condemnation of how others live their lives.

[Phil MaGlass]

What if we sing songs about ourselves then,

"Oh the Hibees are gaaayy"?

[Hibbyradge]

What if we sing songs about ourselves then,

"Oh the Hibees are gaaayy"?

What I don't understand is why you feel the need to sing about it in the first place.

[Hibbyradge]

If anyone really doesn't understand the effect of being marginalised has on a person, you should read up about Jane Elliot's Blue eyes/Brown eyes experiment.

[Dashing Bob S]

Some people respond to abuse with humour. That doesn't excuse the abuse does it?

You seem to suggest that it does.

No, it doesn't excuse the abuse.

Yes, I probably did suggest that it does.

Therefore I was wrong. The loss of banter and fun I was mourning is a small price to pay for eradicating something that obviously causes a lot of hurt to some people and excludes them from participation in mainstream society.

In the USA a huge new phenomenon is the the gay sportsbar. It debunks the traditional idea that gay people don't like sports, its popularity shows that it's the homophobic attitudes from an early age that turn them off.

[MCameron]

Oh dear! that'll be game over then!

Seems not to be aye.....

I knew using that example would get some people's back and so I deliberatly used it and yes it was a severe case of intolerance but it was intolerance all the same.

So going back to the examples of the so called 'banter' - "we can see you holding hands"

Let's look at it in it's basic form and then I'm hoping you can explain the banter bit to me cos I'm missing it. So a group of mainly hetrosexual males sing this to the opposing crowd (again mainly hetrosexual males). Where is the banter part?

Is it that the attitutes of those singing the song think there is something wrong with two guys or two girls holding hands? If it's that then it sounds like intolerance to me.

Happy to listen anyone's version of where the 'banter' bit comes in though.:greengrin

[Elephant Stone]

There's many people who find the issue of homosexuality unacceptable. Surely, in a democratic country, if it's put forward in the correct and proper manner, then they should be perfectly entitled to express that opinion.

Whilst I agree that bullying and outright abuse are not things that should ever be tolerated, it can never be right to legislate against genuine points of view and that's the way I fear this country is going.

They should be and currently are perfectly entitled to express that opinion. Gay people are also perfectly entitled to live their lives without being abused, it's about striking the right balance. As you say, people who disagree with homosexuality should be allowed to make their argument in the correct manner, abusing people in football stadiums is not the right way and the right balance isn't met.

[MCameron]

They should be and currently are perfectly entitled to express that opinion. Gay people are also perfectly entitled to live their lives without being abused, it's about striking the right balance. As you say, people who disagree with homosexuality should be allowed to make their argument in the correct manner, abusing people in football stadiums is not the right way and the right balance isn't met.

Totally agree ES.

The problem is that it seems to me that those singing these songs don't realise they're homophobic as in their minds they aren't directing the chant towards a gay person.

They simply think these songs are a bit of fun being directed towards another rival team's support. It's similar to the attitude of many who think it's okay to say "shut it ya P00f" to their mates and pass it off as "just a wee bit aye banter".

The bottom line is such terms are being used because the people using them think there is something wrong with being gay (I agree everyone has a right to believe what they want) however it's the attitude they show when trying to justify that what they're saying is "just a laugh" which hacks me off the most. They either see the link and know they're being homophobic or otherwise I'd question their inteligence if they don't see the issue. I'm not saying they have to believe but at least acknowledge an understanding of the issue instead of rolling out the 'PC brigade' bullshti

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Seems not to be aye.....I knew using that example would get some people's back and so I deliberatly used it and yes it was a severe case of intolerance but it was intolerance all the same.So going back to the examples of the so called 'banter' - "we can see you holding hands"Let's look at it in it's basic form and then I'm hoping you can explain the banter bit to me cos I'm missing it. So a group of mainly hetrosexual males sing this to the opposing crowd (again mainly hetrosexual males). Where is the banter part? Is it that the attitutes of those singing the song think there is something wrong with two guys or two girls holding hands? If it's that then it sounds like intolerance to me.Happy to listen anyone's version of where the 'banter' bit comes in though.:greengrin I don't recall referring to the topic as banter, but, i'm quite happy for ignorance to be bliss on the subject of homosexuality, so, will leave others with more awareness to discuss it further.

[Betty Boop]

We're aw Jock Tamson's bairns ! :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Does this mean Jimmy Hill does not bat for the other side?

[MCameron]

What's the 'other side' BH?

[blackpoolhibs]

What's the 'other side' BH?

I'm not allowed to say anymore.

[sidjames]

I'm not allowed to say anymore.

Queer that really.

[hibbill2002]

I'm not allowed to say anymore.

:greengrin

[MCameron]

Think its safe for the admins to remove the 'hopefully' from the ops thread title....last 3 posts suggest It's definitely Hibs connected.

[Kammy1875]

Surely Homphobic abuse is only when you actually singling a player out because of there sexualty?

Calling someone a wee poof, fairy, homo is not homophobic abuse, it's like calling them a wee lassie, it's not because they are actually gay. Imo.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Here we go!

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Anyway, the game will be starting soon, so, I'm away to watch The Cottagers!

[hibbill2002]

Anyway, the game will be starting soon, so, I'm away to watch The Cottagers!

:greengrin

[Tricla]

Do you think this guy in the EEN article from last week (below) sees it as banter?

It's the same as bigotry, racism and all other forms of intolerance. The youngsters hear this **** being sung and it breeds hatred.


A man was left with a broken jaw after a suspected homophobic attack in Edinburgh on Saturday night.
The 24-year-old was walking with friends on Waverley Bridge when they were confronted by three men who shouted abuse at them.
One of them punched the victim, knocking him to the ground, before running off towards Princes Street.
Police described it as a "cowardly and vicious" assault, and urged witnesses to contact them.
A spokesman for Lothian and Borders Police said: "Anyone who was in or around Waverley Bridge about midnight this morning and saw anything suspicious, or who can help identify the suspects, is asked to contact police immediately.
"Lothian and Borders Police will not tolerate hate crime in any form and will robustly deal with anyone found to be responsible."
One of the suspects was described as black, in his early 20s, 5ft 6ins and of medium build. He was wearing a black hooded top, black and yellow scarf and black trousers.
The second man was white, tall, about 21 and slim. He had dark blond hair and was wearing a red top.
A third man was described as white, aged 20 to 25, about 5ft 7ins, of average build and wearing a dark hooded top.


Are you being serious SH? Although the issue of homophobic attitudes isn't of course restricted to football it's a problem in our society but manifests itself in the supposed 'macho' atmosphere of football stadium. Some people seem to find it 'banter' that doesn't affect anyone but I disagree as it's a way that we introduce and reinforce views to youngsters whoe hear thousands singing about Paul Hartley 's sexuality and this in turn sets some kids prejudices as they grow up. So your'e right the article I posted from the EEN doesn't appear on the face of it have any link to football but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

The casual use of the terms poof or gay are seen as a bit of banter quite widely in our society - are these more acceptable that calling someone a paki or ******? Not to me. If there were a few seperate groups of friends in a room and in a seperate group there was someone from say India. Is it acceptable to say to your white pal 'shut it ya paki' as a bit of banter or would you think that might be inappropriate and might cause offence to the person in the other group? Replace 'paki' with 'poof' in this example is the answer still the same?


Hitler had his beliefs too. I for one am thankful that some in society had the baws to police those intolerant views.


Seems not to be aye.....

I knew using that example would get some people's back and so I deliberatly used it and yes it was a severe case of intolerance but it was intolerance all the same.

So going back to the examples of the so called 'banter' - "we can see you holding hands"

Let's look at it in it's basic form and then I'm hoping you can explain the banter bit to me cos I'm missing it. So a group of mainly hetrosexual males sing this to the opposing crowd (again mainly hetrosexual males). Where is the banter part?

Is it that the attitutes of those singing the song think there is something wrong with two guys or two girls holding hands? If it's that then it sounds like intolerance to me.

Happy to listen anyone's version of where the 'banter' bit comes in though.:greengrin


Totally agree ES.

The problem is that it seems to me that those singing these songs don't realise they're homophobic as in their minds they aren't directing the chant towards a gay person.

They simply think these songs are a bit of fun being directed towards another rival team's support. It's similar to the attitude of many who think it's okay to say "shut it ya P00f" to their mates and pass it off as "just a wee bit aye banter".

The bottom line is such terms are being used because the people using them think there is something wrong with being gay (I agree everyone has a right to believe what they want) however it's the attitude they show when trying to justify that what they're saying is "just a laugh" which hacks me off the most. They either see the link and know they're being homophobic or otherwise I'd question their inteligence if they don't see the issue. I'm not saying they have to believe but at least acknowledge an understanding of the issue instead of rolling out the 'PC brigade' bullshti


Think its safe for the admins to remove the 'hopefully' from the ops thread title....last 3 posts suggest It's definitely Hibs connected.


The PC bear has been well and truly poked!

When do you ever have something to say about football in general? It seems to me that you just sit in hiding until someone posts anything that you deem as un-PC then you pounce like some holier than thou praying mantis! :yawn:

[MCameron]

Surely Homphobic abuse is only when you actually singling a player out because of there sexualty?

Calling someone a wee poof, fairy, homo is not homophobic abuse, it's like calling them a wee lassie, it's not because they are actually gay. Imo.

...so It's just an insult right?

[Kammy1875]

...so It's just an insult right?

Put it this way, if I was playing football and someone called me a wee poof I wouldn't be insulted. :aok:

[hibbill2002]

Put it this way, if I was playing football and someone called me a wee poof I wouldn't be insulted. :aok:
ya wee poof!:na na:

[Kammy1875]

ya wee poof!:na na:

:greengrin :aok:

[Beefster]

The PC bear has been well and truly poked!

When do you ever have something to say about football in general? It seems to me that you just sit in hiding until someone posts anything that you deem as un-PC then you pounce like some holier than thou praying mantis! :yawn:

MCameron has explained, in great detail, why he thinks that homophobic chanting is unacceptable. AFAIK no-one has refuted any of his points without resorting to the old faithfuls of "it's just banter, eh" or "PC brigade".

If you disagree with him, rather than just dismiss his posts, why don't you tell him why he's wrong?

[Wembley67]

Can you not watch womens fitbaw either and call them wee fannies incase they get a complex??

[Hibercelona]

Doesn't matter what you sing at a football game, somebody will be offended by it.

[Future17]

Put it this way, if I was playing football and someone called me a wee poof I wouldn't be insulted. :aok:

What if someone used a negative stereotype of something you actually are (race, religion, nationality, aspect of appearance, aspect of personality etc) to insinuate there was something wrong with having that attribute?

For example:

Asian - "Don't come near my house, you might blow it up".

Catholic - "Don't come near my kids, you're a beast".

Irish - "You can't do that, you're thick as ****".

Small - "You'll never get a bird cause you're bound to have a tiny ****".

Stutter - "You can't order the pizzas, it'll take half an hour".

Associating being gay with lacking in courage, or anything else negative, just reinforces negative stereotypes that have built up over the years.

Aside from whether they're insulting (which clearly some people feel they are), they are annoying because they are so ridiculously untrue in the majority of cases and normally based on ignorance.

The worst thing about people repeating this kind of nonsense is that we are teaching our kids the same bizarre, twisted rubbish - however, as times (and attitudes) change, it'll be our kids that suffer for having parents like us.

[MCameron]

The PC bear has been well and truly poked!

When do you ever have something to say about football in general? It seems to me that you just sit in hiding until someone posts anything that you deem as un-PC then you pounce like some holier than thou praying mantis! :yawn:

I enjoy reading the football stuff and do comment although infrequently. Football is about the game and supporting your team and .net is q good way to keep up to date with football matters. Football shouldn't be a forum for racists, bigots and homophobes in my opinion.

Seems the freedom of speech brigade are quick enough to roll out their 'here come the PC police' crap. Tell me then is what you're advocating that when a matter that's actually more important than football is highlighted by the op the only people who need reply are those who, in your eyes, are un-pc?

I suspect we'll not see eye to eye (again) which is fine but interested to hear the opposite view.

[MCameron]

Doesn't matter what you sing at a football game, somebody will be offended by it.

Ah ok that makes it all ok then. Let's go back to the IRA chants. I mean I don't know anyone who had a relative murdered so it can't be bad - can it?

[persevere1875]

Doesn't matter what you sing at a football game, somebody will be offended by it.

Unfortunately or Fortunately dependant on which side of the argument you take, someone somewhere will take offence at almost anything nowadays and it doesnt need to be at the football, it happens in every walk of life up and down the country, not that Im belittleing the argument against whats regarded by some as homophobic chants, if you believe they are offensive and or unnecesarry then you have the right to speak out against that, however if you believe that what some percieve as homophobic chants which obviously have an underlying deep rooted disdain for gay people, are merely humorous remarks made to wind up opposition players / supporters should you have any less right to sing the songs ?

Were in danger of becoming a nation too afraid to say or think anything incase someone takes it the wrong way and sues you for it, where does it stop ? where is the line drawn ? for example, what in all reality is the difference in singing a song suggesting that Paul Hartley may preffer men compared to a song suggesting that all the occupants of Gorgie for example may occasionally resort to searching the bins for a meal and may have a penchant for dead rat ??

[lapsedhibee]

what in all reality is the difference in singing a song suggesting that Paul Hartley may preffer men compared to a song suggesting that all the occupants of Gorgie for example may occasionally resort to searching the bins for a meal and may have a penchant for dead rat ??

Think we did this on here about a year ago and there was a suggestion that it's racist because it refers to people of a particular geographical place.

[persevere1875]

Think we did this on here about a year ago and there was a suggestion that it's racist because it refers to people of a particular geographical place.

Aye, no wonder the singing section are having to dig about for new song ideas eh !!

[Tricla]

MCameron has explained, in great detail, why he thinks that homophobic chanting is unacceptable. AFAIK no-one has refuted any of his points without resorting to the old faithfuls of "it's just banter, eh" or "PC brigade".

If you disagree with him, rather than just dismiss his posts, why don't you tell him why he's wrong?


I'm not dismissing his points.

I was pointing out the fact that we never hear from him until someone says something about a certain social class, sexual persuasion or religion.

Then he assumes the position of chief social guru!

[MCameron]

....... however if you believe that what some percieve as homophobic chants which obviously have an underlying deep rooted disdain for gay people, are merely humorous remarks made to wind up opposition players / supporters should you have any less right to sing the songs ?

So following that line of thought through then you're surely saying that the Celtic and Rangers fans can carry on singing their songs - let's face it the majority of them aren't likely to actually want to blow their Rangers pals up now are they?

[persevere1875]

So following that line of thought through then you're surely saying that the Celtic and Rangers fans can carry on singing their songs - let's face it the majority of them aren't likely to actually want to blow their Rangers pals up now are they?

Firstly, I did say that anyone who doesnt agree with songs such as these does quite rightly have the right to voice there opinions as they would with any chants from any other team on any other subject so really you should take the whole comment in context, secondly and far more importantly, there is absolutely no way you can seriously compare songs saying A N Other is gay or we can see you holding hands to a song which glorifies murderous acts perpetrated in the name of religious beliefs, seriously have a word,

[Tricla]

Unfortunately or Fortunately dependant on which side of the argument you take, someone somewhere will take offence at almost anything nowadays and it doesnt need to be at the football, it happens in every walk of life up and down the country, not that Im belittleing the argument against whats regarded by some as homophobic chants, if you believe they are offensive and or unnecesarry then you have the right to speak out against that, however if you believe that what some percieve as homophobic chants which obviously have an underlying deep rooted disdain for gay people, are merely humorous remarks made to wind up opposition players / supporters should you have any less right to sing the songs ?

Were in danger of becoming a nation too afraid to say or think anything incase someone takes it the wrong way and sues you for it, where does it stop ? where is the line drawn ? for example, what in all reality is the difference in singing a song suggesting that Paul Hartley may preffer men compared to a song suggesting that all the occupants of Gorgie for example may occasionally resort to searching the bins for a meal and may have a penchant for dead rat ??

:top marks


So following that line of thought through then you're surely saying that the Celtic and Rangers fans can carry on singing their songs - let's face it the majority of them aren't likely to actually want to blow their Rangers pals up now are they?


Sadly not! :devil:

[MCameron]

Tricla show me where I've once tried to assume the role as chief social guru.............thought not.

Also I've not once said everyone should have the same views as me and am very much for freedom of speech when it's within legal boundaries. I realise these so called 'banter' songs aren't illegal but in my own opinion, and the view of quite a few others who have posted opinion here, homophobic. The OP suggested this was not a Hibs related problem. I disagree and there are plenty of posts in this thread to support that.

Oh and If there's a football related post I feel strongly about I'll post my thoughts on that too but thanks for showing your concern about my lack of football realted posts.:na na:

[Hibbyradge]

I wonder why people feel so strongly that it's their right to shout insults at other people because of their sexuality in the first place.

And why is it such a danger that we stop doing so?

I feel very sorry for anyone whose only or main enjoyment comes from belittling others.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Jambo barstewards!

[Hibbyradge]

People choose their football team.

They don't choose their sexuality or colour. Even region is ingrained from an early choice.

Rivalry on football matters is acceptable and healthy.

[Eyrie]

I wonder why people feel so strongly that it's their right to shout insults at other people because of their sexuality in the first place.
Maybe they're, shall we say, "uncomfortable" with their own feelings?

[ginger_rice]

Would Luton Town have to change their nickname then :offski:

[Andy74]

Surely Homphobic abuse is only when you actually singling a player out because of there sexualty?

Calling someone a wee poof, fairy, homo is not homophobic abuse, it's like calling them a wee lassie, it's not because they are actually gay. Imo.

It's the same argument made about the Skacel song. By calling someone whatever it is you are suggesting there is something wrong with being that thing.

[nonshinyfinish]

It's the same argument made about the Skacel song. By calling someone whatever it is you are suggesting there is something wrong with being that thing.

:agree:

[joe breezy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evnZci_2p5I

Does anyone recall this advert? Never seen it on TV before.

What do people think of adverts like this?

My pal wrote and art directed this. I helped with wardrobe and was an extra, a chilly day at Wembley a couple of years ago.

I think it's a good ad. One gay rights sportsman didn't like it so the FA bottled it for a while then it got leaked on YouTube and it got rave reviews so they screened it. It was never actually aired on TV though.

It is a hard subject as there may be times guys say stuff in jest at work, for example I had to get my photo taken at work today and one guy said we can shoot you on the pink background and i said 'oh no, that's gay' obviously just having a laugh and none of the gay guys were around at the time. But I work in a very 'gay friendly' workplace and I'm not homophobic.

Anyway, I'm happy for homophobic abuse to be banned as I said before Paul Hartley is gay was a bad reaction to a really bad cringeworthy chant.

I think it would have been funnier to sing 'we're gonnae **** you' but then who would want to **** a Jambo...

[Phil MaGlass]

What I don't understand is why you feel the need to sing about it in the first place.

I dont feel the need to sing it, Im saying would we be arrested for singing it?

[Phil MaGlass]

Yir awe a bunch ae poofs, and carpet munching boiler suit wearers. :cb

[blackpoolhibs]

Yir awe a bunch ae poofs, and carpet munching boiler suit wearers. :cb

Funny you should have a cowboy smillie, a fan of brokeback mountain are we? :wink: