A lot of truth there

[James70]

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/opinion/analysis/anthony_brown_time_to_let_go_of_mogga_years_1_1977 318

But at the end of the day we are in a recession, supporters aren't going to pay over the odds for an inferior product and 5,000(and counting) missing fans can't all be wrong. There is certainly a confidence issue with the players or some of them at least and being booed off the park on a regular basis isn't going to fix anything.

[Andy74]

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/opinion/analysis/anthony_brown_time_to_let_go_of_mogga_years_1_1977 318

But at the end of the day we are in a recession, supporters aren't going to pay over the odds for an inferior product and 5,000(and counting) missing fans can't all be wrong. There is certainly a confidence issue with the players or some of them at least and being booed off the park on a regular basis isn't going to fix anything.

Some of it is fair but it would have been more relevant if it was written when mixu was here or when there were complaints about the standard of play when we were actually going well under Hughes.

Those were times when the expectation thing probably got in the way a bit and we were actually performing in line with anyhting we've achieved in recent years.

Now, however, we are dire, and have barely won a game at home in the last year, and mainly against bottom six teams, of which we are now firmly one of.

In the past we have had some reasons for underachieving with our financial situation but now is the time that we should be nefitting from having come through some pain.

It's a strange timing to be using the expectation point when we are punching quite considerably below our weight.

[matty_f]

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/opinion/analysis/anthony_brown_time_to_let_go_of_mogga_years_1_1977 318

But at the end of the day we are in a recession, supporters aren't going to pay over the odds for an inferior product and 5,000(and counting) missing fans can't all be wrong. There is certainly a confidence issue with the players or some of them at least and being booed off the park on a regular basis isn't going to fix anything.

I think the piece offers some much needed perspective, however there can be no argument that we are underachieving.

The point of accepting the break up of the golden generation, accepting that we couldn't spend all that money back in the team, and accepting that the training centre and the stadium's completion were the right way to use the money, was that the outcome was that we would be in a much stronger position than we have been historically.

Looking at the dire 80's, the slight successes of the 90's and 2000's - we achieved those training in public parks, we've never had that much money to spend and for a long time we've been chipping away at debt.

The break up of Mowbray's team - put together for a pittance, by the way, should have been the catalyst for better things, not worse. Certainly over the longer term, and perhaps we're not there yet.

But I don't accept that we should set our sights lower. Motherwell, St Mirren and Kilmarnock have all entertained their fans this season on budgets far lower than ours, and without the luxury of the facilities available to us. That is what sticks in the craw.

For me, the infrastructure that we have, and the investment we (the club) have made and are making, should see us top 4, in fact, when you think about it, Hearts can probably come out of the equation for the third team now, given they are on a very slippery slope - there is a very strong argument to say that if we were in any way punching our weight, we could/should be sitting third.

So when the crowd rings out the boos at half time, having seen us toil to manage a solitary shot on goal against a Kilmarnock side filled with players plucked from goodness knows where, on lower salaries than we're on, and with a life far less easy than the Hibs side, then it's hard to be too full of condemnation for the fans who undoubtedly are paying over the odds for what's on offer.

That said, the reaction to these poor years has meant that we as a support have made the ground far more intimidating and unforgiving for our own players than we ever do for the opponents. I think Killie have been the only team who's visiting fans haven't sang "what a *****ty home support" this season, and I think that's because they only know the words to one song, nicked from Rangers.

The importance of getting a new manager who can galvanize the club and the support, who can talk of entertaining, passing football and not effective football, who explains that the mistakes that happen are part of encouraging players to enjoy their football and play it the 'right' way so that the support don't chastise every misplaced shot or overhit free-kick, is paramount. Almost as important as their ability to manage the team, IMHO.

Hibernian are at a cross-roads. Down one path leads monotony, lower crowds, poorer teams, and more dis-satisfaction for all concerned. The other way is a support at one with the team, playing entertaining football and getting backing from healthy crowds. Which route we go down rests on the ability of the board to make the right appointment.

Apologies for the lengthy post!

[Dashing Bob S]

I think the piece offers some much needed perspective, however there can be no argument that we are underachieving.

The point of accepting the break up of the golden generation, accepting that we couldn't spend all that money back in the team, and accepting that the training centre and the stadium's completion were the right way to use the money, was that the outcome was that we would be in a much stronger position than we have been historically.

Looking at the dire 80's, the slight successes of the 90's and 2000's - we achieved those training in public parks, we've never had that much money to spend and for a long time we've been chipping away at debt.

The break up of Mowbray's team - put together for a pittance, by the way, should have been the catalyst for better things, not worse. Certainly over the longer term, and perhaps we're not there yet.

But I don't accept that we should set our sights lower. Motherwell, St Mirren and Kilmarnock have all entertained their fans this season on budgets far lower than ours, and without the luxury of the facilities available to us. That is what sticks in the craw.

For me, the infrastructure that we have, and the investment we (the club) have made and are making, should see us top 4, in fact, when you think about it, Hearts can probably come out of the equation for the third team now, given they are on a very slippery slope - there is a very strong argument to say that if we were in any way punching our weight, we could/should be sitting third.

So when the crowd rings out the boos at half time, having seen us toil to manage a solitary shot on goal against a Kilmarnock side filled with players plucked from goodness knows where, on lower salaries than we're on, and with a life far less easy than the Hibs side, then it's hard to be too full of condemnation for the fans who undoubtedly are paying over the odds for what's on offer.

That said, the reaction to these poor years has meant that we as a support have made the ground far more intimidating and unforgiving for our own players than we ever do for the opponents. I think Killie have been the only team who's visiting fans haven't sang "what a *****ty home support" this season, and I think that's because they only know the words to one song, nicked from Rangers.

The importance of getting a new manager who can galvanize the club and the support, who can talk of entertaining, passing football and not effective football, who explains that the mistakes that happen are part of encouraging players to enjoy their football and play it the 'right' way so that the support don't chastise every misplaced shot or overhit free-kick, is paramount. Almost as important as their ability to manage the team, IMHO.

Hibernian are at a cross-roads. Down one path leads monotony, lower crowds, poorer teams, and more dis-satisfaction for all concerned. The other way is a support at one with the team, playing entertaining football and getting backing from healthy crowds. Which route we go down rests on the ability of the board to make the right appointment.

Apologies for the lengthy post!

No need to apologize as you've hit it on the head. Yes, we've gone backwards, but so has Scottish football as a whole, and we should be able to compete in that stagnant pond against the debt-ridden crisis-club peers and the small town outfits who seem to be handling the recession a lot better than we are.

We have the sort of facilities that should be attracting and developing a higher class of player than any outside the OF (we'll take Hearts out the equation because any idiot can pay people what they don't have and destroy themselves as a result) but we ain't, so at a footballing level we've been as dramatically mismanaged as we've been excellently managed at a financial level.

On the plus side, I really don't think it's as bleak as many suggest. I believe that we're only one decent appointment from being a very strong top 3-4 club, albeit in a very, very poor league. Yes, we've messed things up in the past, fairly regularly since Mowbray, but I really hope we appoint a bright, young, upwardly-mobile manager who really wants to make his mark on the club, rather than just recycle another platitude-spouting graggy-faced buffoon from the mediocre tank.

[RickyS]

I think the piece offers some much needed perspective, however there can be no argument that we are underachieving.

The point of accepting the break up of the golden generation, accepting that we couldn't spend all that money back in the team, and accepting that the training centre and the stadium's completion were the right way to use the money, was that the outcome was that we would be in a much stronger position than we have been historically.

Looking at the dire 80's, the slight successes of the 90's and 2000's - we achieved those training in public parks, we've never had that much money to spend and for a long time we've been chipping away at debt.

The break up of Mowbray's team - put together for a pittance, by the way, should have been the catalyst for better things, not worse. Certainly over the longer term, and perhaps we're not there yet.

But I don't accept that we should set our sights lower. Motherwell, St Mirren and Kilmarnock have all entertained their fans this season on budgets far lower than ours, and without the luxury of the facilities available to us. That is what sticks in the craw.

For me, the infrastructure that we have, and the investment we (the club) have made and are making, should see us top 4, in fact, when you think about it, Hearts can probably come out of the equation for the third team now, given they are on a very slippery slope - there is a very strong argument to say that if we were in any way punching our weight, we could/should be sitting third.

So when the crowd rings out the boos at half time, having seen us toil to manage a solitary shot on goal against a Kilmarnock side filled with players plucked from goodness knows where, on lower salaries than we're on, and with a life far less easy than the Hibs side, then it's hard to be too full of condemnation for the fans who undoubtedly are paying over the odds for what's on offer.

That said, the reaction to these poor years has meant that we as a support have made the ground far more intimidating and unforgiving for our own players than we ever do for the opponents. I think Killie have been the only team who's visiting fans haven't sang "what a *****ty home support" this season, and I think that's because they only know the words to one song, nicked from Rangers.

The importance of getting a new manager who can galvanize the club and the support, who can talk of entertaining, passing football and not effective football, who explains that the mistakes that happen are part of encouraging players to enjoy their football and play it the 'right' way so that the support don't chastise every misplaced shot or overhit free-kick, is paramount. Almost as important as their ability to manage the team, IMHO.

Hibernian are at a cross-roads. Down one path leads monotony, lower crowds, poorer teams, and more dis-satisfaction for all concerned. The other way is a support at one with the team, playing entertaining football and getting backing from healthy crowds. Which route we go down rests on the ability of the board to make the right appointment.

Apologies for the lengthy post!

agree with all of that mate, especially the bit in bold.

[Feed McGraw]

I really don`t get these journos` that think the Hibs support has expectations that are too high. How could we possibly have high expectations when you look at Hibs trophy winning record over the years ? I think we have, for the most part, an incredibly loyal support, but no, focus on a few( dozen/hundred ?) boo boys and how our expectations are " too high" - what claptrap that is.

I can remember the tornadoes getting booed on the odd occasion too, but they just came out the next time and slammed 5, 6,or 7, past some poor sods and that put paid to any of that !


In Scottish terms we are still a big club and good cup runs with a win in one of them every 15 to 20 years on average, surely isn`t a high expectation and neither is a top 6 spot with a chance of Europe. A bit of enjoyable football on the way would be good too.

In most of the decades since the war Hibs have had good teams, some great teams,and played and beat top european sides, this guy IMO has painted us as some middling, mediocre bunch who expect "too much", what a cheek ! Our loyalty and devotion to Hibs deserves a whole lot more than we`ve been served this last few years, but " high expectations" ? Don`t think so pal. Get yersel a good Hibs book,read it, then write a proper piece about the Hibs and one of the most loyal supports in football.

[Elephant Stone]

I'm sick of hearing this **** that our expectations are high. We've won one (I think) home game since February, before that we had to endure the second half of Yogi's reign which was not a lot, if at all, better. For having the fourth biggest (maybe even third now) budget for players and infrastructure which is the best outside Glasgow we should be better than this and we've got every right to expect so.

[joebakerforever]

But I don't accept that we should set our sights lower. Motherwell, St Mirren and Kilmarnock have all entertained their fans this season on budgets far lower than ours, and without the luxury of the facilities available to us. That is what sticks in the craw.



Do we really know this to be the case or is it just a self perpetuating myth that some accept as fact ?

Where are the published figures to support this ?

For instance will Stephen Hughes who recently joined Motherwell as free agent, or Higdon, or Stephen Thomson, being getting paid less than the likes of Sodje, Aggogo, & Thornhill, etc :hmmm:

[IWasThere2016]

Hibernian are at a cross-roads. Down one path leads monotony, lower crowds, poorer teams, and more dis-satisfaction for all concerned. The other way is a support at one with the team, playing entertaining football and getting backing from healthy crowds. Which route we go down rests on the ability of the board to make the right appointment.

It is the game in Scotland.

This is like pre-Souness / SKY where the product is dross, and there is no obvious injection of finance (or genuine competition) to life the game up.

[matty_f]

Do we really know this to be the case or is it just a self perpetuating myth that some accept as fact ?

Where are the published figures to support this ?

For instance will Stephen Hughes who recently joined Motherwell as free agent, or Higdon, or Stephen Thomson, being getting paid less than the likes of Sodje, Aggogo, & Thornhill, etc :hmmm:

We have a higher turnover than any of these clubs, we also have a wages/turnover ratio above the recommended 60% (IIRC we're something like 65-68%), which means that the other clubs would have to be significantly over 70% wages/turnover to be outspending us.

[Andy74]

It is the game in Scotland.

This is like pre-Souness / SKY where the product is dross, and there is no obvious injection of finance (or genuine competition) to life the game up.

You don't need finance really, we have shown that just spending more than others doesn't do much if its not managed well.

I think Motherwell fans would probably disagree just now that the product is poor currently or that there is lack of competition.

Today you've pointed me to a couple of games where we got 17,700 plus in the stadium.

If we just got it right on the pitch we'd be back there regardles of how bad some may feel Scottish football is. Doesn't say much for us if we are struggling in a bad era and this is the point - it's not the expectations that ae the issue its the results and performances.

[BEEJ]

Don't know who Anthony Brown is. But he deserves an enormous 'whoosh' smilie for missing the point, big time.

He seems to be addressing the happy band of 15 or so protestors who stood outside the recent AGM and is failing to speak to the few thousand or more who have given up attending ER in the past year.

It may well be a 'slump' rather than a 'crisis' that we are enduring; but are those the only options available? What has our recent investment in infrastructure (and all the related financial sacrifice) been for, if not to enable us to kick on and start to perform consistently as a top four SPL side?

[joebakerforever]

We have a higher turnover than any of these clubs, we also have a wages/turnover ratio above the recommended 60% (IIRC we're something like 65-68%), which means that the other clubs would have to be significantly over 70% wages/turnover to be outspending us.

So in other words no proof !

What is the source of this information with regards to the likes of other clubs outwith the the OF & Hearts ?

Still to see hard facts (i.e. published figures) regarding your assertion that "Motherwell, St Mirren and Kilmarnock have all entertained their fans this season on budgets far lower than ours".

Call me a sceptic if you like, but you have to wonder how the likes of St Johnstone were able to offer better terms for Cillian Sheridan than ourselves, if our current playing budget is so superior.

[matty_f]

So in other words no proof !What is the source of this information with regards to the likes of other clubs outwith the the OF & Hearts ?Still to see hard facts (i.e. published figures) regarding your assertion that "Motherwell, St Mirren and Kilmarnock have all entertained their fans this season on budgets far lower than ours".Call me a sceptic if you like, but you have to wonder how the likes of St Johnstone were able to offer better terms for Cillian Sheridan than ourselves, if our current playing budget is so superior.Sheridan is on loan, while we have signed in recent seasons Stokes, Miller, Stack, O'Connor, Riordan, De Graaf, Murray, Sproule, Palsson...You can question if we are spending more than the other teams mentioned but none of them have signed players of that standing, and even if they have paid more for one or even two players there is no way the overall spend is as much as ours. You can try google to see if the accounts for the other clubs are available if you want definitive proof, sure it will be out there somewhere.

[Wellfan1984]

I cannot comment on anyone else - but from the May 2010 Accounts.

Motherwell had a turnover of £4.380m* with wages and salaries being £3.035m* which covers 115 members of staff.

Wages/Salaries was broken up as

7 Football Staff
29 Senior Players
9 Young Players
20 YTS staff (players and coaches)
8 Ground Staff/Cleaners
30 Community Workers
12 Administrative Staff

Meanwhile not a single director took a wage. For May 2011 our budget was slightly reduced and our Senior Players were less in number. This term, our playing budget remained the same as last - although we no longer have an owner to back us up.



*to the nearest £0.001m

[The Harp]

Must look at this article again when I'm less tired. Found the 24 column inches of Anthony Brown's rambling sleep inducing and pretty insulting to Hibs fans to be honest. The guy aint no Hugh McIlvanney that's for sure.

[joebakerforever]

Sheridan is on loan, while we have signed in recent seasons Stokes, Miller, Stack, O'Connor, Riordan, De Graaf, Murray, Sproule, Palsson...You can question if we are spending more than the other teams mentioned but none of them have signed players of that standing, and even if they have paid more for one or even two players there is no way the overall spend is as much as ours. You can try google to see if the accounts for the other clubs are available if you want definitive proof, sure it will be out there somewhere.

We are talking about now, not the past.

However do you really think that transfer fee for Stokes plus the reduction in the wage bill for messrs Stoke, Riordan, Miller, & De Graaf departing, have been swallowed up by recruiting O'Connor, Sproule, and Palsson ?

For instance has, as was rumoured, the playing budget been slashed for 2011/12 ?

It was reported that we were seeking Sheridan on a loan deal also, but as he went to St Johnstone instead, that does not suggest that our current playing budget is as competitive as some would have you believe.


IMO whoever comes in as Manager will find it extremely difficult to turn round a legacy of continually diluting the playing staff to the dismal level were at now.

[Big Frank]

I really don`t get these journos` that think the Hibs support has expectations that are too high. How could we possibly have high expectations when you look at Hibs trophy winning record over the years ? I think we have, for the most part, an incredibly loyal support, but no, focus on a few( dozen/hundred ?) boo boys and how our expectations are " too high" - what claptrap that is.

I can remember the tornadoes getting booed on the odd occasion too, but they just came out the next time and slammed 5, 6,or 7, past some poor sods and that put paid to any of that !


In Scottish terms we are still a big club and good cup runs with a win in one of them every 15 to 20 years on average, surely isn`t a high expectation and neither is a top 6 spot with a chance of Europe. A bit of enjoyable football on the way would be good too.

In most of the decades since the war Hibs have had good teams, some great teams,and played and beat top european sides, this guy IMO has painted us as some middling, mediocre bunch who expect "too much", what a cheek ! Our loyalty and devotion to Hibs deserves a whole lot more than we`ve been served this last few years, but " high expectations" ? Don`t think so pal. Get yersel a good Hibs book,read it, then write a proper piece about the Hibs and one of the most loyal supports in football.

you need to post more. A lot more.

:top marks

[Feed McGraw]

you need to post more. A lot more.



:top marks


Thanks Frank. It`s my one-fingered technique ( pardon the expression ) on the keyboard, that makes it a bit of a task to post something longish. :greengrin

[totalfootball]

Our expectations are not unrealistic nor are our demands. The club has simply fallen below our demands, we are not being unreasonable to expect a european challeneg every season (at least top 6) a decent attacking exciting side which gets to a cup semi or final every year or 2. Outwith the old firm we are certainly in the top 3 clubs in terms of size and support base! We are seeing no ambition from the board in terms of pushing on now that all the facilities are in place everything should be geared at creating a successful winning side. I dont accept that we as Hibs fans are being unrealistic we all know where we should be and what we should be aiming towards and its incredibly frustrating trhat we are nowhere near that standard. Whoever the new manager is I wish him good luck and will support him 100%. A good start is a must to get everyone onside and pulling in the same direction.
GGTTH

[Tyler Durden]

We are talking about now, not the past.

However do you really think that transfer fee for Stokes plus the reduction in the wage bill for messrs Stoke, Riordan, Miller, & De Graaf departing, have been swallowed up by recruiting O'Connor, Sproule, and Palsson ?For instance has, as was rumoured, the playing budget been slashed for 2011/12 ?

It was reported that we were seeking Sheridan on a loan deal also, but as he went to St Johnstone instead, that does not suggest that our current playing budget is as competitive as some would have you believe.


IMO whoever comes in as Manager will find it extremely difficult to turn round a legacy of continually diluting the playing staff to the dismal level were at now.

You're not going to have conclusive proof of our wage bill NOW, as the financial reports for this year won't be due for some time.

However it's not really that difficult to work out, is it? Firstly the undisclosed Stokes fee will have went to running costs/debt reduction rather than player recruitment. In addition to the 3 players you've selectively mentioned, we've signed Thornhill, Scott, Sodje, Towell, Griffiths, Osbourne, O'Hanlon plus other short term duds like Vaz Te and Divis.

The wage bill probably has reduced in line with our turnover reducing. With the odd exception that will have been the same as at Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Well, St Johnstone and the rest of the SPL outwith the OF & Hearts. Other teams may have 1 or 2 players on higher wages than our average but in terms of overall wage bill, it's quite evident IMO that we have a higher budget than the teams mentioned. Unfortunately the players we've signed have in general been failures - that's why we're struggling.

[IWasThere2016]

It is evident our board take home more also than other clubs :wink: Clearly we need 3 CAs - and, of course, another 99 RPs :greengrin - oor wage bill would be something then :faf:

[Cropley10]

No need to apologize as you've hit it on the head. Yes, we've gone backwards, but so has Scottish football as a whole, and we should be able to compete in that stagnant pond against the debt-ridden crisis-club peers and the small town outfits who seem to be handling the recession a lot better than we are.

We have the sort of facilities that should be attracting and developing a higher class of player than any outside the OF (we'll take Hearts out the equation because any idiot can pay people what they don't have and destroy themselves as a result) but we ain't, so at a footballing level we've been as dramatically mismanaged as we've been excellently managed at a financial level.

On the plus side, I really don't think it's as bleak as many suggest. I believe that we're only one decent appointment from being a very strong top 3-4 club, albeit in a very, very poor league. Yes, we've messed things up in the past, fairly regularly since Mowbray, but I really hope we appoint a bright, young, upwardly-mobile manager who really wants to make his mark on the club, rather than just recycle another platitude-spouting graggy-faced buffoon from the mediocre tank.

:agree: and after an extensive and exhaustive search for a Leader looks like we've managed to snag Pat the Rat Fenlon. Let's hope he takes us the right way at these cross-roads.

[Kaiser1962]

We have a higher turnover than any of these clubs, we also have a wages/turnover ratio above the recommended 60% (IIRC we're something like 65-68%), which means that the other clubs would have to be significantly over 70% wages/turnover to be outspending us.

Both St.Mirren and Motherwell's wages/turnover was at 76% season ending 2010, down from the previous season, which is the last season available at this time.


While our wage bill is higher than the clubs you mention it is not significantly so and we do have more employees, although Killie include the hotel staff so no one beats them! The gap between the rest and Hearts and then the OF is much larger.

[Kaiser1962]

It is evident our board take home more also than other clubs :wink: Clearly we need 3 CAs - and, of course, another 99 RPs :greengrin - oor wage bill would be something then :faf:


All of our directors have a role to play, although some may dispute that, when other clubs have the same post occupied by a manager. Of the eight clubs that have competed in the SPL over the last 12 seasons only one is profitable over that period.

This may not be of much solace when the team on the pitch is so poor but, in terms of our overall survival, it is vital IMO. You were spot on with your previous comment that it is Scottish Football, and not just Hibs, that is at a crossroads.

[ahibby]

I wonder how many games the writer has been to at Easter Road. To talk with such authority on things Hibs I suppose he must be a regular attender. He misses out at least one important point though and that is that some of us would settle for mediocrity at the moment. He doesn't mention that Mixu was regarded as being unsuccessful at Hibs but a success at his other clubs and therefore he doesn't look in to the cause of the malaise at Easter Road. Although it's fairly well written and gets some emotions going and some heads nodding in agreement all it actually says over the umpteen paragraphs is lower your expectations. If mine go any lower then I'd have us relegated :wink: