Celtic to face UEFA probe over IRA chants

[Sir David Gray]

UEFA will be launching an investigation after Strathclyde Police reported several instances of "offensive chanting" to their match delegate during their match against Rennes.

The case is likely to be heard next month.

Lothian and Borders Police are also conducting their own investigation after many Celtic fans complained about pro-IRA chants being sung by their fellow fans during their match at Tynecastle last month.

Still "the best fans in the world", though, according to Peter Lawwell. :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15706740.stm

[HibbyAndy]

Good on uefa :agree: But what are Scottish governing bodies doing about these idiots that sing it EVERY week??? The sqaure root of f all!!!!!..Its time Celtc and Rangers were deducted points till the morons learn!!! But i wouldnt hold my breath.


Bigots the pair of them :agree:

[gringojoe]

But it is their god given right as the down trodden masses of weegieland to sign about another countries troubles.

[Hibbyradge]

It's a strange one.

I wish those morons wouldn't sing pro IRA songs, but is it actually against UEFA rules to do so?

Just because it offends doesn't mean it's illegal.

I'm offended by every song Hearts sing, but unfortunately, they have every right to sing them.

:dunno:

Having posed that question, I'll be pleased if UEFA do act against them.

Maybe we'll finally start dealing with the issue.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Think the point is that they are bigots that have attached themselves to football clubs in the same way that casuals were thugs that did the same. Penalising them in a football way is almost irrelevant. In a parasitic relationship, I am not sure if the merit in punishing the host. I remember back to the eighties when the proscribed paramilitaries were not allowed to speak on TV so their words were read by actors. SKY and the others should do similar and speed it up like Pinky and Perky, like when you played an LP at 45rpm.

[HibeesLA]

Interesting to note in the OP that it was Celtc fans themselves that complained to L&B Police.

[dalkeith stu]

It's a strange one.

I wish those morons wouldn't sing pro IRA songs, but is it actually against UEFA rules to do so?

Just because it offends doesn't mean it's illegal.

I'm offended by every song Hearts sing, but unfortunately, they have every right to sing them.

:dunno:

Having posed that question, I'll be pleased if UEFA do act against them.

Maybe we'll finally start dealing with the issue.

Not strictly true, the "oh the hibees are gay" song is against the rules as your not aloud homophobic chants but nothing is ever said about that one.

[BryanV]

Think the point is that they are bigots that have attached themselves to football clubs in the same way that casuals were thugs that did the same. Penalising them in a football way is almost irrelevant. In a parasitic relationship, I am not sure if the merit in punishing the host. I remember back to the eighties when the proscribed paramilitaries were not allowed to speak on TV so their words were read by actors. SKY and the others should do similar and speed it up like Pinky and Perky, like when you played an LP at 45rpm.

The equivalent would be if Hibs adopted a business approach designed to appeal to the casual market. It is no coincidence that these people have attached themselves to these clubs.

[ScottB]

I've long said that it would be UEFA to take the Old Firm to task, the SFA / SPL don't have the balls to do it (or maybe that's thinking too well of them, maybe they just don't want to) and I always thought that sooner or later, UEFA would have had enough and nail them to the wall.

Surely if UEFA start nailing them for things that our bodies should be anyway, they should start taking action against the SFA / SPL for not doing their duty?

[Bishop Hibee]

Rangers got into trouble for fans f the pope add-ons and the use of the word fenian in an anti catholic context as I understand it :dunno:

Are Celtc fans pro provo chants anti-protestant? It will be interesting to see if that stands up in court.

We are at the stage now where the SFA should take the lead and ban any chants and banners of a political nature at Scottish football grounds unless authorised e.g. anti-racism. Fine clubs first then play matches behind closed doors then points deductions if it continues.

[Famous Fiver]

I am totally in agreement with the view that action should be taken by the SCOTTISH powers that be because this goes on every week, home and away by the Old Firm 'followers'.

Until we have points deductions, grounds closed, prosecutions and severe financial penalties this behaviour will continue and grounds will continue to empty.

Are you listening, SFL and SFA?

[ScottB]

I am totally in agreement with the view that action should be taken by the SCOTTISH powers that be because this goes on every week, home and away by the Old Firm 'followers'.

Until we have points deductions, grounds closed, prosecutions and severe financial penalties this behaviour will continue and grounds will continue to empty.

Are you listening, SFL and SFA?

The powers to do such things are on the books already, they just lack the testicular fortitude to actually use them.

[Scouse Hibee]

Who gives a ****! It doesn't offend me one bit because I don't listen to it, take any notice of it or if the truth be known even realise what they're singing. I go the games to watch the football, far too many folk getting hung up on what's being sung by the opposition fans.....total nonsense IMO.

[One Day]

Who gives a ****! It doesn't offend me one bit because I don't listen to it, take any notice of it or if the truth be known even realise what they're singing. I go the games to watch the football, far too many folk getting hung up on what's being sung by the opposition fans.....total nonsense IMO.

I agree, no one ever got hurt by being sung at. Half the songs although they may be offensive are not illegal. There are worse things going on in the world

[Future17]

UEFA will be launching an investigation after Strathclyde Police reported several instances of "offensive chanting" to their match delegate during their match against Rennes.

The case is likely to be heard next month.

Lothian and Borders Police are also conducting their own investigation after many Celtic fans complained about pro-IRA chants being sung by their fellow fans during their match at Tynecastle last month.

Still "the best fans in the world", though, according to Peter Lawwell. :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15706740.stm

To be pedantic, the article doesn't say the songs/chants to be investigated by UEFA were pro-IRA - just says they were "offensive".

[The Harp]

Seems strange that Shamrock Rovers fans can travel to Spurs in huge numbers, give their team fantastic backing, sing their hearts out, and not resort to IRA chants/slogans (as far as I'm aware).
Is it because the Rovers and their fans really are Irish whereas some celtic supporters just wannabe?!?

[Cabbage East]

Best fans in the world my ring.

[Steve-O]

Who gives a ****! It doesn't offend me one bit because I don't listen to it, take any notice of it or if the truth be known even realise what they're singing. I go the games to watch the football, far too many folk getting hung up on what's being sung by the opposition fans.....total nonsense IMO.

Agreed. The clowns probably love all the attention they get because of it, so we just shouldn't bother even mentioning it.

[joe breezy]

Seems strange that Shamrock Rovers fans can travel to Spurs in huge numbers, give their team fantastic backing, sing their hearts out, and not resort to IRA chants/slogans (as far as I'm aware).
Is it because the Rovers and their fans really are Irish whereas some celtic supporters just wannabe?!?

Yes, exactly. Celtic fans want to be stuck in the dark ages, they want to live in a Protestant country were it matters to be in the minority.

Fact is they live in a country where most people don't care about religion and the ones that do are often nice people who tolerate the other religions.

There are undoubtedly bigots but their archaic rubbish gets less and less relevant as time goes on.

[Sir David Gray]

It's a strange one.

I wish those morons wouldn't sing pro IRA songs, but is it actually against UEFA rules to do so?

Just because it offends doesn't mean it's illegal.

I'm offended by every song Hearts sing, but unfortunately, they have every right to sing them.

:dunno:

Having posed that question, I'll be pleased if UEFA do act against them.

Maybe we'll finally start dealing with the issue.

The Provisional IRA is a proscribed terrorist organisation in this country. I'm fairly certain that means it is therefore illegal to promote or encourage this organisation in any way, in this country.

I don't see the difference between these Celtic fans singing and chanting in support of the PIRA and the Muslims who go about chanting in support of al Qaeda and other such groups.


Seems strange that Shamrock Rovers fans can travel to Spurs in huge numbers, give their team fantastic backing, sing their hearts out, and not resort to IRA chants/slogans (as far as I'm aware).
Is it because the Rovers and their fans really are Irish whereas some celtic supporters just wannabe?!?

:agree: Spot on.

I actually remember commenting on that when I watched Shamrock Rovers play Spurs a few weeks ago. Every single song that I heard their fans sing was in support of their own team and not a single IRA song in sight. Despite the fact that they were playing in the capital city of the United Kingdom.

[hibsbollah]

Nothing will come of this due to the 'these songs refer to the 'ra' of the irish war of independence, not the 'ra' of enniskillen, omagh etc etc.' defence.

[AndyM_1875]

Nothing will come of this due to the 'these songs refer to the 'ra' of the irish war of independence, not the 'ra' of enniskillen, omagh etc etc.' defence.

That's certainly the party line that the apologists trot out Hibsbollah.

But I reckon that the Scotland knows exactly what there idiots are all about. Furthermore their time, along with the bammers in the Rangers support, is up. :bye:
The tired excuse that it is somehow political just does not wash . It's not political at all - show me the manifesto!:devil:
What it is actually is vile, hateful cretinous ***** and the greater Scottish society is absolutely sick of it.

For too long we have tolerated the lunatic fringes of the Old Firm support like errant children.
Well no more. I back the Bill.

[pentlando]

Not strictly true, the "oh the hibees are gay" song is against the rules as your not aloud homophobic chants but nothing is ever said about that one.

Tough to defend the jambos on this one, but how is it homophobic? Unless being called a hibee is really offensive to someone who is homosexual?

[Andy74]

The Provisional IRA is a proscribed terrorist organisation in this country. I'm fairly certain that means it is therefore illegal to promote or encourage this organisation in any way, in this country.

I don't see the difference between these Celtic fans singing and chanting in support of the PIRA and the Muslims who go about chanting in support of al Qaeda and other such groups.



:agree: Spot on.

I actually remember commenting on that when I watched Shamrock Rovers play Spurs a few weeks ago. Every single song that I heard their fans sing was in support of their own team and not a single IRA song in sight. Despite the fact that they were playing in the capital city of the United Kingdom.

Why would Shamrock Rovers fans be bothered about the IRA and all that?

Since the majority of Ireland did become a Republic its more of an issue for the Republicans in Northern Ireland. Glasgow is far more aligned to Beflast and other places in the north than Dublin.

[Andy74]

Tough to defend the jambos on this one, but how is it homophobic? Unless being called a hibee is really offensive to someone who is homosexual?

Same argument as the Skacel song. It's the suggestion that there there is something wrong with being gay. They don't mean it as a compliment.

Although I've always thought there is no difference in singing about someone being a bas**** or fat, or ugly, or needing glasses, or whatever. It might be making fun of someone but the inference is that there is something wrong with being the thing that is sung about.

Can't say any of these sorts of things bothers me which is why I never had any real agreement that the Skacel song was designed to be racist. Others woud argue that it doesn't matter and that if a refugee was to be offended that's what counts.

In this way if a gay person was bothered about the Hibs song then it would be homophobic.

[Keith_M]

Who gives a ****! It doesn't offend me one bit because I don't listen to it, take any notice of it or if the truth be known even realise what they're singing. I go the games to watch the football, far too many folk getting hung up on what's being sung by the opposition fans.....total nonsense IMO.


But surely you're missing the point.

Whether it's offensive or not is irrelevant, but if Celtc get a big fine then that's surely a good thing :wink:

[pentlando]

Same argument as the Skacel song. It's the suggestion that there there is something wrong with being gay. They don't mean it as a compliment.

Although I've always thought there is no difference in singing about someone being a bas**** or fat, or ugly, or needing glasses, or whatever. It might be making fun of someone but the inference is that there is something wrong with being the thing that is sung about.

Can't say any of these sorts of things bothers me which is why I never had any real agreement that the Skacel song was designed to be racist. Others woud argue that it doesn't matter and that if a refugee was to be offended that's what counts.

In this way if a gay person was bothered about the Hibs song then it would be homophobic.

Yeah totally agree with that. What i would say though is that if the Hibees are gay song is deemed to be too offensive then there is actually very few songs that could be sung. Any reference to weegies and woolly animal themed songs would have go. In any case there's definitely a marked difference between those sorts of songs and the one's the sectarianism bill is attempting to challenge. Some songs are purely political in nature and belong at political rally's and not football stadiums. IMO the tide has turned and it's only a matter of time before these songs start to die away. Whilst not doing enough the clubs in general are condemning these songs and trying to isolate the perpetrators as a minority (which again IMO they are not really). The next step is convincing the majority of supporters of these teams that the singing has to stop. If it was Hibs who were in Celtic or Rangers shoes, i know a points penalty and/or European expulsion would definitely make me more vocal in condemning the behaviour.

[libernian]

that majority of celtic fans ive met sing these songs for a laugh and for purposes of winding people up (as can be seen on this thread). as well as that they are actually quite good songs some of them - celtic symphony has a great tune to it especially at the start.

[Pete]

that majority of celtic fans ive met sing these songs for a laugh and for purposes of winding people up (as can be seen on this thread). as well as that they are actually quite good songs some of them - celtic symphony has a great tune to it especially at the start.

Exactly. It's the first song they sing when the game kicks off for that very reason.

It's almost pantomime now because the law can't touch them and even the new laws that might get passed one day will be easily be dealt with by a reasonably skilled lawyer.

Ignore them and keep these threads for those who actually chant about hating other religious groups.

[Dinkydoo]

Exactly. It's the first song they sing when the game kicks off for that very reason.

It's almost pantomime now because the law can't touch them and even the new laws that might get passed one day will be easily be dealt with by a reasonably skilled lawyer.

Ignore them and keep these threads for those who actually chant about hating other religious groups.

I'd love to hear you (and Libernian) give some sort of justification as to why you think Celtic fans chanting about the IRA is just a wind up.

[libernian]

I'd love to hear you (and Libernian) give some sort of justification as to why you think Celtic fans chanting about the IRA is just a wind up.

it just seems to me thats the nature of it like a lot of other football related singing.

[iwasthere1972]

Petrie has told them to get it up them :thumbsup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GXlpIt77Ouo

[Dinkydoo]

it just seems to me thats the nature of it like a lot of other football related singing.

"it just seems to me that's the nature of it" isn't really justifying why you think what you do though, is it. You must know why you think the tics singing about the IRA is just a bit of banter.

Can you give me any sort of reason as to why you think the huns and diet huns singing about "being up to their knees" is not acceptable, but glorifying a terrorist organisation is?

(and I'd be interested to hear from Peter Douglas on this one too)

Surely it can't really be because you think that those of a blue persuasion actually want to (and do) wander around killing "Fenians", whilst Celtic fans think its a bit of a laugh to sing about an organisation who has killed innocent people.......

The OF are two cheeks of the same arse IMO and I simply fail to see how some people think its ok for one group to sing offensive songs but not the other.

[Pete]

I'd love to hear you (and Libernian) give some sort of justification as to why you think Celtic fans chanting about the IRA is just a wind up.

The reason why I think it's a wind up is because I know first hand they sing it to wind people up. This comes from Celtic supporters I know. They know they aren't breaking any laws and while you might be offended there's not a lot you can do about it.

I'll ask one of them I know to email you if you don't believe me.

Is that what you mean by "justify"?

[Pete]

"it just seems to me that's the nature of it" isn't really justifying why you think what you do though, is it. You must know why you think the tics singing about the IRA is just a bit of banter.

Can you give me any sort of reason as to why you think the huns and diet huns singing about "being up to their knees" is not acceptable, but glorifying a terrorist organisation is?

(and I'd be interested to hear from Peter Douglas on this one too)

Surely it can't really be because you think that those of a blue persuasion actually want to (and do) wander around killing "Fenians", whilst Celtic fans think its a bit of a laugh to sing about an organisation who has killed innocent people.......

The OF are two cheeks of the same arse IMO and I simply fail to see how some people think its ok for one group to sing offensive songs but not the other.

1. What's the point of entering an argument you can't win? The Rangers song is cut and dried and the Celtic songs are a minefield.
They are "up to their knees in fenian blood surrender or you'll die". A clear statement of hate towards a religious group!
The Celtic song...you don't have a clue. The last lines of the song are the ones in question and who knows who they are referring to. Is it the IRA or the PIRA? It might actually be RAH the sun god for all you can prove. Even if it is proven to be the PIRA it's all about the context within the song. If you can define the meaning of the celtic symphony then I'll take my hat off. It might well be sarcasm or irony, all this crazy talk about graffiti on a wall!
The point is that one is driven by hatred towards a certain faith and the other isn't.

2. OK, I'll admit it...I'm a little bit bias. What are you going to do about it? (Hawksbee and Jacobs smilie)
I've studied the relationship between Ireland and Britain, looked at the facts throughout history and have come to the conclusion that certain parties were wronged and some were in the wrong. I also think that referring to certain groups merely as "terrorists" without taking the bigger picture into account is wrong. I'm surprised you had forgotten and had to ask.

FWIW I think it's nuts and has nothing to do with the realm of football....but In my opinion the whole problem in Scotland is 90% one way in the direction of Catholics. Maybe Celtic have been over-egging the pudding recently but it's the result of centuries of anti-Irish and ant-catholic discrimination...which is still a very real problem even in todays so called enlightened society.

[basehibby]

Rangers got into trouble for fans f the pope add-ons and the use of the word fenian in an anti catholic context as I understand it :dunno:

Are Celtc fans pro provo chants anti-protestant? It will be interesting to see if that stands up in court.

We are at the stage now where the SFA should take the lead and ban any chants and banners of a political nature at Scottish football grounds unless authorised e.g. anti-racism. Fine clubs first then play matches behind closed doors then points deductions if it continues.

Doesn't really matter as they are effectively pro-murder. We live in a country who's citizens have been targetted in the past with indescriminate bombing and certain Celtic fans think they're really smart for singing the praises of the instigators (who have themselves hung up their weapons years ago) - that in itself is offensive to most of the population and, constituting a breach of the peace, is arguably reason to take action.

It's high time the SPL/SFA got their ignorant heads out of the sand and started docking the OF points for their followers' behaviour - they are an embarassment to Scotland and this is the course of action which would be most effective in shutting them up IMO. Fat chance of that happenning if we've got idiots like Neil Doncaster at the SPL believing that the OF's knuckle draggers are providing positive publicity for Scottish Football :rolleyes:

[Joe Baker II]

1. What's the point of entering an argument you can't win? The Rangers song is cut and dried and the Celtic songs are a minefield.
They are "up to their knees in fenian blood surrender or you'll die". A clear statement of hate towards a religious group!
The Celtic song...you don't have a clue. The last lines of the song are the ones in question and who knows who they are referring to. Is it the IRA or the PIRA? It might actually be RAH the sun god for all you can prove. Even if it is proven to be the PIRA it's all about the context within the song. If you can define the meaning of the celtic symphony then I'll take my hat off. It might well be sarcasm or irony, all this crazy talk about graffiti on a wall!
The point is that one is driven by hatred towards a certain faith and the other isn't.

2. OK, I'll admit it...I'm a little bit bias. What are you going to do about it? (Hawksbee and Jacobs smilie)
I've studied the relationship between Ireland and Britain, looked at the facts throughout history and have come to the conclusion that certain parties were wronged and some were in the wrong. I also think that referring to certain groups merely as "terrorists" without taking the bigger picture into account is wrong. I'm surprised you had forgotten and had to ask.

FWIW I think it's nuts and has nothing to do with the realm of football....but In my opinion the whole problem in Scotland is 90% one way in the direction of Catholics. Maybe Celtic have been over-egging the pudding recently but it's the result of centuries of anti-Irish and ant-catholic discrimination...which is still a very real problem even in todays so called enlightened society.

Excellent post - I agree with your sentiments. Only caveat in para 1 but stress Fenian does not refer to a religious group - though given many (not just the thick anti-OF posters on sites such as this) think it does may justify what you are saying. Given Britain (definitely) and Scotland (arguably) have national anthems that glorify atrocities and in Scoltands case “terrorism” as defined by authorities as time far more than the majority of songs sung at Celtic games object strongly to football supporters being singled out when the two anthems are allowed to be sung officially.

[Moulin Yarns]

Excellent post - I agree with your sentiments. Only caveat in para 1 but stress Fenian does not refer to a religious group - though given many (not just the thick anti-OF posters on sites such as this) think it does may justify what you are saying. Given Britain (definitely) and Scotland (arguably) have national anthems that glorify atrocities and in Scoltands case “terrorism” as defined by authorities as time far more than the majority of songs sung at Celtic games object strongly to football supporters being singled out when the two anthems are allowed to be sung officially.

given your opinion that nothing sung by the Celtc support "glorify atrocities", I find your opinion that 'Flower of Scoltand' (sic) glorifies terrorism wide of the mark.

Read the lyrics and you might (but I doubt it) realise that it is a lament for a time when the Scottish nobles rebuffed an attempt by another nation to bring it in line with both royal and religeous oppression. Likewise God Save The King/Queen is a celebration of the oppresion of a religeous minority (both English and Scots) who followed the Jacobite cause.

[Dinkydoo]

The reason why I think it's a wind up is because I know first hand they sing it to wind people up. This comes from Celtic supporters I know. They know they aren't breaking any laws and while you might be offended there's not a lot you can do about it.

I'll ask one of them I know to email you if you don't believe me.

Is that what you mean by "justify"?

:faf: No thanks.

The word of one or a small selection of Celtic supporters doesn't really prove anything.

I know quite a few Celtic fans too but most of them wouldn't sing songs about the IRA, although i'm not naive enough to think that this is a fair representation of the thousands of fans that turn up for each game.

[Dinkydoo]

1. What's the point of entering an argument you can't win? The Rangers song is cut and dried and the Celtic songs are a minefield.
They are "up to their knees in fenian blood surrender or you'll die". A clear statement of hate towards a religious group!
The Celtic song...you don't have a clue. The last lines of the song are the ones in question and who knows who they are referring to. Is it the IRA or the PIRA? It might actually be RAH the sun god for all you can prove. Even if it is proven to be the PIRA it's all about the context within the song. If you can define the meaning of the celtic symphony then I'll take my hat off. It might well be sarcasm or irony, all this crazy talk about graffiti on a wall!
The point is that one is driven by hatred towards a certain faith and the other isn't.

The point that you are constantly missing is that both sets of OF supporters are celebrating, in song, about the death of people. Whether one is directed towards a particular religion, race or individual person, is irrelevant. Rangers fans are a little more blatant about it but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining, you know fine well that "Oh ah up the ra" isn't referring to any sun god FFS.



2. OK, I'll admit it...I'm a little bit bias. What are you going to do about it? (Hawksbee and Jacobs smilie)
I've studied the relationship between Ireland and Britain, looked at the facts throughout history and have come to the conclusion that certain parties were wronged and some were in the wrong. I also think that referring to certain groups merely as "terrorists" without taking the bigger picture into account is wrong. I'm surprised you had forgotten and had to ask.

FWIW I think it's nuts and has nothing to do with the realm of football....but In my opinion the whole problem in Scotland is 90% one way in the direction of Catholics. Maybe Celtic have been over-egging the pudding recently but it's the result of centuries of anti-Irish and ant-catholic discrimination...which is still a very real problem even in todays so called enlightened society.

I wouldn't call you biased, the word however does begin with b......

I wonder if you can guess what I mean?

But then again I suppose it doesn't matter, since you can't possibly prove what I mean :greengrin

[Andy74]

The point that you are constantly missing is that both sets of OF supporters are celebrating, in song, about the death of people. Whether one is directed towards a particular religion, race or individual person, is irrelevant. Rangers fans are a little more blatant about it but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining, you know fine well that "Oh ah up the ra" isn't referring to any sun god FFS.



I wouldn't call you biased, the word however does begin with b......

I wonder if you can guess what I mean?

But then again I suppose it doesn't matter, since you can't possibly prove what I mean :greengrin

Well that's a tricky one because people also died in the battles that are commermorated in the likes of the Flower of Scotland and God Save the Queen.

It might be a while ago but then again so was 1916 and the IRA that most of the songs refer to.

Obviously the big difference is that there have been more recent troubles with much more modern terrorist type activity.

Scotland has a problem with all this but I genuinely think it is more to do with downright ignorance and persecution which has led to this being continued to this day even after most of the activity of the troubles has ceased. I think that indicates that its more to do with a mistrust or a hatred of a certain section of society.

It's a pity that football seems to get brought into it but football reflects society.

To me though certain songs are difficult to dismiss. Why do we sign Flower of Scotland? It's not easy to say some songs glorifying ancient battles or victories are fine but others aren't. What timescal do you draw the line at? To me nearly 100 years is quite a long time.

[Dinkydoo]

Well that's a tricky one because people also died in the battles that are commermorated in the likes of the Flower of Scotland and God Save the Queen.

It might be a while ago but then again so was 1916 and the IRA that most of the songs refer to.

Obviously the big difference is that there have been more recent troubles with much more modern terrorist type activity.

Scotland has a problem with all this but I genuinely think it is more to do with downright ignorance and persecution which has led to this being continued to this day even after most of the activity of the troubles has ceased. I think that indicates that its more to do with a mistrust or a hatred of a certain section of society.

It's a pity that football seems to get brought into it but football reflects society.

To me though certain songs are difficult to dismiss. Why do we sign Flower of Scotland? It's not easy to say some songs glorifying ancient battles or victories are fine but others aren't. What timescal do you draw the line at? To me nearly 100 years is quite a long time.

It is a difficult one although I would say that the amount of time between 1745,1916 and the present day is not an insignificant amount - we're talking about something that happened 100 years ago on one hand and 300 on the other.

As for singing Flower of Scotland and God Save The Queen at football matches, it probably is better received and accepted simply because they are Scotland and England's respective national anthems. The situation changes quite significantly if for example God Save the Queen is sung by Rangers fans, but lets not get into that - my head is hurting enough already.

I accept that this isn't a very sound justification for singing about ancient wars, but I don't claim to have all the answers.

To reiterate my point of view; bigotry in Scotland is a two sided coin.

[Joe Baker II]

given your opinion that nothing sung by the Celtc support "glorify atrocities", I find your opinion that 'Flower of Scoltand' (sic) glorifies terrorism wide of the mark.

Read the lyrics and you might (but I doubt it) realise that it is a lament for a time when the Scottish nobles rebuffed an attempt by another nation to bring it in line with both royal and religeous oppression. Likewise God Save The King/Queen is a celebration of the oppresion of a religeous minority (both English and Scots) who followed the Jacobite cause.

Is what you are referring to not similar what Irish nationalists (both those who campaigned through what the British state would refer to as conventional political channels and those who turned to armed warfare) have fought for. And the fact that the various predecessor and successor bodies to the Provisional IRA have committed atrocities doesn’t mean that these are glorified by songs sung by Celtic fans, any more than singing God Save the Queen is necessarily intended to celebrate British-led atrocities. But only one group of people is being attacked here - as Andyb says football reflects society but society is reflected elsewhere too.

Amazing that given that the origins of Hibs are actually more closely connected to Irish resistance than Celtic's ever were, many Hibs fans wish to suppress songs which are a symptom of an issue, while at the same time ignoring the cause. The Irish song tradition is a history of misery and suffering and a fight against famine and disease and then a fight for racial equality and human dignity. This story has as much right to be told as Scotland's story.

Btw having read McBride's statement in full now (though I know he may be coloured by death threat) he comes over as a complete twat

[Moulin Yarns]

Is what you are referring to not similar what Irish nationalists (both those who campaigned through what the British state would refer to as conventional political channels and those who turned to armed warfare) have fought for. And the fact that the various predecessor and successor bodies to the Provisional IRA have committed atrocities doesn’t mean that these are glorified by songs sung by Celtic fans, any more than singing God Save the Queen is necessarily intended to celebrate British-led atrocities. But only one group of people is being attacked here - as Andyb says football reflects society but society is reflected elsewhere too.

Amazing that given that the origins of Hibs are actually more closely connected to Irish resistance than Celtic's ever were, many Hibs fans wish to suppress songs which are a symptom of an issue, while at the same time ignoring the cause. The Irish song tradition is a history of misery and suffering and a fight against famine and disease and then a fight for racial equality and human dignity. This story has as much right to be told as Scotland's story.

Btw having read McBride's statement in full now (though I know he may be coloured by death threat) he comes over as a complete twat

All songs referring to either political, religeous, sectarian , racist, or whatever, have no place inside a football stadium. FACT

The fact that you appear to be in a minority of 1 in claiming to hearing them sung at Easter Road by home fans in recent years suggest you either have an agenda, condone them or agree with those who have been protesting about the Scottish Governments proposed legislation.