A Dangerous Precedent?

[Future17]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15697632

I'm no fan of the EDL but, if this report is accurate, it worries me slightly. Arrests made "to prevent a breach of the peace"?

[CFC]

The police have probably used the same powers that they have to disperse or detain football hooligans. Imo I think its good, proactive policing, these people really are no good. I'm also pleased to note that MAC have been banned. I'm glad the Met have finally taken a hardline stance on these extremist groups that really cause a lot of ordinary follk grief.

[brianmc]

Have to say, these arrests worried me too.
Now, whilst I think we all know the "type" that the police have dealt with here are worthy of attention-the facts seem to be that these guys/ gals were huckled BEFORE anyone had done a single thing wrong..


100+ arrests to prevent beach off the peace that might happen V'S oh, say, just for instance, an Old Firm game?
As numbers games go its bit ****ed up eh

[Betty Boop]

Rumours the EDL were planning to march on the Occupy camp, at St. Pauls Cathedral.

http://www.wessexfm.com/news/national/553391/police-arrest-57-edl-supporters-in-london/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/11/edl-arrests-london-occupy-armistice-day

[--------]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15697632

I'm no fan of the EDL but, if this report is accurate, it worries me slightly. Arrests made "to prevent a breach of the peace"?



Seems to me to be good policing - that number of members of that particular organisation don't gather together without forming a threat to someone - if MAC weren't around, it would be the Occupy camp that would be the target.

the only 'good' thing about these particular neo-Nazi thugs is that they'll still be called the English Defence League next year.

Muslims Against Crusades are still around - they've just changed their name. They're just as unpleasant and just as much a threat to democracy and civil order.

[Future17]

Seems to me to be good policing - that number of members of that particular organisation don't gather together without forming a threat to someone - if MAC weren't around, it would be the Occupy camp that would be the target.

the only 'good' thing about these particular neo-Nazi thugs is that they'll still be called the English Defence League next year.

Muslims Against Crusades are still around - they've just changed their name. They're just as unpleasant and just as much a threat to democracy and civil order.

You may be right, but I'm sure Governments and their forces have used similar arguments recently in Syria, Libya, Egypt etc.

[Jack]

It might be a bit contradictory but to me the EDL and their likes are one of the drawbacks of a 'free' society. I'm quite happy for the police to give them a hard time at every opportunity and to make their lives as miserable as they can. No better than neds who should get the same treatment every time they stick their heads out the door - in fact they should all get their doors kicked in at four in the morning on a regular basis.

The vast majority of people live quiet peaceful respectful lives just getting on with it and are continually put upon by these types.

I agree its peoples right to demonstrate but there's a responsibility to do that with the rights of others in mind – and that’s where the problem lies. They don’t mind / care how their actions impinge on the rights of others.

Fight fire with fire. The time to mollycoddle these types has come and gone as they have sought to take advantage of society's ‘good nature’.

[The Green Goblin]

It is where this might lead that is the worry. I take it we have all seen Minority Report?

GG

[--------]

You may be right, but I'm sure Governments and their forces have used similar arguments recently in Syria, Libya, Egypt etc.


Yes, but in Syria, Libya and Egypt they weren't released shortly after being arrested. They were murdered. We've done it ourselves in the past, in India, in Ireland, in East Africa.

But I think we need to keep a sense of perspective here.

It wasn't as if this was a properly regulated and supervised demo or march - the EDL were just there, trouble looking for a place to happen.

There's a balance between freedom for all, and toleration of the intolerable. It's never easy to find that balance, or having found it, to keep it.

[Future17]

Yes, but in Syria, Libya and Egypt they weren't released shortly after being arrested. They were murdered. We've done it ourselves in the past, in India, in Ireland, in East Africa.

But I think we need to keep a sense of perspective here.

It wasn't as if this was a properly regulated and supervised demo or march - the EDL were just there, trouble looking for a place to happen.

There's a balance between freedom for all, and toleration of the intolerable. It's never easy to find that balance, or having found it, to keep it.

I know what you're saying but in terms of perspective, a lot of the worst atrocities that have occured with the tacit approval of Governments following an escalating culture of eroding basic civil liberties.

From a civil liberties point of view, I don't think it's intolerable that a group of people meet in a pub, regardless of what distasteful views they may share.

As soon as they commit a crime, either inside the pub or out on the streets, by all means arrest them. Until then, is it not intolerable that they are deprived the right of free assembly because the majority of people in this country don't agree with them?

[Jack]

I know what you're saying but in terms of perspective, a lot of the worst atrocities that have occured with the tacit approval of Governments following an escalating culture of eroding basic civil liberties.

From a civil liberties point of view, I don't think it's intolerable that a group of people meet in a pub, regardless of what distasteful views they may share.

As soon as they commit a crime, either inside the pub or out on the streets, by all means arrest them. Until then, is it not intolerable that they are deprived the right of free assembly because the majority of people in this country don't agree with them?

I’m sorry, but not that sorry, for too long these neds, and that’s all they are, have made a damned nuisance of themselves under cover they hadn't done anything yet, who us?, they're a bona fide political party – aye right. Something happens and its too late, someone who doesn’t agree with their anti-social-establishment-whatever it is gets robbed, hurt, or worse. The society they infest disrupted.

To compare the thieving English neds or the EDL with what happened in the Arab countries is obtuse in the extreme - another thread already done.

If these people chose not to live within the bounds of a decent society then I see no good reason why that society should give them any protection or have any qualms about how it deals with them.

They obviously don’t give a fu … thought for my/our civil liberties so why should I/we give one about theirs?

Decent society as a group is sick to the teeth of these people, the herd tolerance is waning.

[CFC]

Until then, is it not intolerable that they are deprived the right of free assembly because the majority of people in this country don't agree with them?Most of these EDL types come from the football hooligan subculture that has set the UK back to the stone age for 30+ years. They revel in their anti social pastime of running amok, vandalising and assaulting with an ocassional dabble in extremist politics. Personally Im pleased to see their activities disrupted, their ilk are a blight on the country.

[--------]

I know what you're saying but in terms of perspective, a lot of the worst atrocities that have occured with the tacit approval of Governments following an escalating culture of eroding basic civil liberties.

From a civil liberties point of view, I don't think it's intolerable that a group of people meet in a pub, regardless of what distasteful views they may share.

As soon as they commit a crime, either inside the pub or out on the streets, by all means arrest them. Until then, is it not intolerable that they are deprived the right of free assembly because the majority of people in this country don't agree with them?



Are you sure that the EDL 'spokesman' was actually telling the truth, the WHOLE truth about what the EDL were doing there? Or about what really happened in the pubs? I would take a lot of convincing that that number of those people were there at that time for entirely innocent purposes - 180 members of a far-right political group with a history of violent behaviour congregating in and around one pub rings warning-bells in my mind.

Is it possible that the police really had received a quiet warning that the EDL were gathering with a view to causing trouble - as they said - and properly acted upon that warning to prevent things getting out of hand?

Groups like the EDL and MAC live to provoke a violent response to what they do. A crime had been committed inside the pub - a fight had broken out. We have only the EDL's word for it that their members were simply minding their own business - or indeed that the 'young idiots' weren't members of the EDL. In Germany in the 1920's and '30's they weren't called 'young idiots', they were call 'stormtroopers' or 'brownshirts' - and the failure of the German police to deal with them (and the failure of the British and French governments to take them seriously) caused a lot more trouble than 180 arrested and all but a couple released without charges.

[Betty Boop]

The EDL to target striking public service workers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/19/edl-splinter-group-target-unions

[Dashing Bob S]

Precedent Bush?

[Betty Boop]

Precedent Bush?

Found guilty along with Blair of war crimes, by a tribunal in Malaysia.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29815.htm

[Leicester Fan]

The EDL to target striking public service workers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/19/edl-splinter-group-target-unions

EDL splinter group? May ​attack? Sounds made up to me.

[Betty Boop]

EDL splinter group? May ​attack? Sounds made up to me.

They have already tried to attack Unite HQ in Liverpool.

http://uaf.org.uk/2011/11/edl-fascists-attempt-attack-on-trade-union-unites-north-west-hq/

[Leicester Fan]

They have already tried to attack Unite HQ in Liverpool.

http://uaf.org.uk/2011/11/edl-fascists-attempt-attack-on-trade-union-unites-north-west-hq/

Doesn't read exactly impartial. Anyway I thought the BNP were anti banker too?

[Betty Boop]

Doesn't read exactly impartial. Anyway I thought the BNP were anti banker too?

Eh ? Are you saying Unite are making it up ? :confused:

[Leicester Fan]

Eh ? Are you saying Unite are making it up ? :confused:

If you read the headline;
EDL fascists attempt attack on trade union Unite’s North West HQ (http://uaf.org.uk/2011/11/edl-fascists-attempt-attack-on-trade-union-unites-north-west-hq/)You'd think that the EDL had physically attacked a building and yet if you read the article it says;


A group of around 10 EDL thugs appeared at the Unite offices in Liverpool today, brandishing flags and chanting slogans attacking antifascists and “Marxists”.

So in other words their chants were attacking the union, protesting in exactly the same way as the unions do.

I have no time for the EDL or the anti fascist groups, 2 sides of the same coin imo.

[Hibrandenburg]

If you read the headline;
EDL fascists attempt attack on trade union Unite’s North West HQ (http://uaf.org.uk/2011/11/edl-fascists-attempt-attack-on-trade-union-unites-north-west-hq/)You'd think that the EDL had physically attacked a building and yet if you read the article it says;



So in other words their chants were attacking the union, protesting in exactly the same way as the unions do.

I have no time for the EDL or the anti fascist groups, 2 sides of the same coin imo.

Nodding smiley!