John Collins (merged)

[Andy74]

I'm sure JC, like everyone has his faults & some, like his supposed arrogance & inability to work with less gifted players have been well documented. I've only met John twice but on both occasions he was charming, humble & extremely knowledgeable about football throughout Europe. From that perspective I'm slightly biased but IMO we as Hibs fans owe JC a huge vote of thanks & not just for that wonderful day at Hampden.
1. The sale of the twins - the supposed financial genius RP was going to sell both for less than we ended up getting for SB. Tony Mowbray started & JC completed the task of putting SB on a long term & better paid contract thereby ensuring we got full value.
2. Fletch - similar to above, RP was extremely reluctant to give him an improved contract & JC came close to walking then. JC, supported by others on the Board finally prevailed & result was income of £3.5mm when we would only have been entitled to development costs if Fletch had walked at end of his original contract.
Someone asked what JC had to do with our income of £8.8mm. I estimate JC on his own earned Hibs about £5mm, enough to pay for East Mains. I'm sure that was a major source of his frustration with his limited budget.
Sorry to be so lengthy but finally does anyone seriously think JC, in his 1st management role came in & decided to sign AOB & BK? These were both Tommy Craig recommendations & the only other player we spent money on in year 1, Maka, was also in the pipeline before JC's arrival. I believe another prominent ex Hibby may have been involved in that deal ( for well meaning reasons ).

So, everything good JC was responsible for. Even getting the better of RP in transfer and contract dealings. Everything bad he wasn't. Got that.

[BEEJ]

I'm a big fan of JC but his behaviour and his version of events around when he resigned were not the same as Petrie and the Board were suggesting and there was more in there to back up the Petrie chain of events.

Rod was very clear that JC walked before he had even had the chance to talk about the budget. When he resigned he was again given an opportunity to come and tell the board what he wanted and he refused.
Yes, I remember that. Someone's not been entirely truthful then - either a failed manager covering his backside or a club CEO embarrassed by the public revelations of the inner workings of his club.


Given Hibs spent well just a few weeks later does suggest that money was there.
Indeed, perhaps the club were embarrassed into doing so after a club hero had left in such trying circumstances.

And JC argued separately that RP had twice suggested Rankin to him and JC had declined on both occasions. Rankin was then ushered in a few weeks after JC's departure. So perhaps we were spending well on some players that might not have been JC's first choice. For all we know this could have been part of the issue.


Time has obviously changed some perceptions but at the time it very much looked like JC was struggling and chose to walk to save face.

He signed badly and even if we brought in big money for players that doesn't excuse not working well within his budget.
There was no doubt he was struggling and the calibre of players he had signed was a big factor in that. This is where I think JC's immense sense of self-belief was his own downfall. After winning the cup I think he thought he could forge a successful side out of a bunch of lower league journeymen. Clearly he couldn't.


I've Read the Scotsman article. If that's the reason Collins left, why would he be interested in returning?
Don't think he is. Just wishful thinking on the part of some posters.


Someone asked what JC had to do with our income of £8.8mm. I estimate JC on his own earned Hibs about £5mm, enough to pay for East Mains. I'm sure that was a major source of his frustration with his limited budget.
Not sure you can put a figure on it; but there's no doubt that his stance on player value successfully talked up the prices that we finally got.


Sorry to be so lengthy but finally does anyone seriously think JC, in his 1st management role came in & decided to sign AOB & BK? These were both Tommy Craig recommendations & the only other player we spent money on in year 1, Maka, was also in the pipeline before JC's arrival. I believe another prominent ex Hibby may have been involved in that deal ( for well meaning reasons ).
BK was a free transfer. Useless but at least he didn't cost us anything. AOB was spotted / recommended by Tommy Craig, as you say. Maka had been under consideration by Mowbray in the 2006 summer window so he was already on our radar.

When all is said and done, JC spent around £500k on three transfer fees (MAC was signed on a nominal fee). Certainly not a huge amount as some would suggest and paltry in comparison to the amounts being brought in from transfers at the time.

He might well have been guilty of paying ridiculously high salaries to the former premiership players, AOB and Maka. The figures in the accounts would suggest as much.

[Betty Boop]

John Collins responsible for one of the best days of my Hibs supporting life. Come back soon ! :not worth

[Bad Martini]

History records the following, regards JC time in charge of Hibs:

He took over on 31st October 2006.
He won the League Cup in style (5-1) for the first time in over 15 years.
He also turned over both halves of the old firm and the yams, calling them a pub team in the process.
He overseen a team revolt where, after he was out the country, a bunch of overpaid, overweight imposters sneaked off to Petrie's hoose to moan about tough training and game tactics
Just over a year later, Collins resigned, citing issues of cash and a falling out with the board/Petrie.


Lest we forget, he publicly becried laziness and poor work ethic. He took no **** and he wanted a fit, winning team.

Can ANYONE here say they would LIKE to witness a laziness, a poor work ethic and want an unfit, losing team????? Really? Didnt think so.

The record shows Collins won the cup, done relatively well in results and win rate for an inexperienced manager and had a **** assistant. He bought (or TC influenced?) badly and couldnt rectify. He went for more cash and better players, got told to **** off so did just that.

We have won nothing since. Would I take him back? ****ing right. IMHO, he shouldnt have ended up going the first time round.

ENDOF

PS I canny see him returning anyway, mores the pity.

[matty_f]

History records the following, regards JC time in charge of Hibs:

He took over on 31st October 2006.
He won the League Cup in style (5-1) for the first time in over 15 years.
He also turned over both halves of the old firm and the yams, calling them a pub team in the process.
He overseen a team revolt where, after he was out the country, a bunch of overpaid, overweight imposters sneaked off to Petrie's hoose to moan about tough training and game tactics
Just over a year later, Collins resigned, citing issues of cash and a falling out with the board/Petrie.


Lest we forget, he publicly becried laziness and poor work ethic. He took no **** and he wanted a fit, winning team.

Can ANYONE here say they would LIKE to witness a laziness, a poor work ethic and want an unfit, losing team????? Really? Didnt think so.

The record shows Collins won the cup, done relatively well in results and win rate for an inexperienced manager and had a **** assistant. He bought (or TC influenced?) badly and couldnt rectify. He went for more cash and better players, got told to **** off so did just that.

We have won nothing since. Would I take him back? ****ing right. IMHO, he shouldnt have ended up going the first time round.

ENDOF

PS I canny see him returning anyway, mores the pity.

Collins called the Pub Team a Pub Team after a defeat at the PBS.

[Andy74]

History records the following, regards JC time in charge of Hibs:

He took over on 31st October 2006.
He won the League Cup in style (5-1) for the first time in over 15 years.
He also turned over both halves of the old firm and the yams, calling them a pub team in the process.
He overseen a team revolt where, after he was out the country, a bunch of overpaid, overweight imposters sneaked off to Petrie's hoose to moan about tough training and game tactics
Just over a year later, Collins resigned, citing issues of cash and a falling out with the board/Petrie.


Lest we forget, he publicly becried laziness and poor work ethic. He took no **** and he wanted a fit, winning team.

Can ANYONE here say they would LIKE to witness a laziness, a poor work ethic and want an unfit, losing team????? Really? Didnt think so.

The record shows Collins won the cup, done relatively well in results and win rate for an inexperienced manager and had a **** assistant. He bought (or TC influenced?) badly and couldnt rectify. He went for more cash and better players, got told to **** off so did just that.

We have won nothing since. Would I take him back? ****ing right. IMHO, he shouldnt have ended up going the first time round.

ENDOF

PS I canny see him returning anyway, mores the pity.


These are the positives of course, mainly.

There is also the other side of the coin which was the dismal run that he was failing to address and leaving us towards the bottom half of the league.

Kevin McCann at centre half?

The Scottish cup semis v Dunfermline?

[CRAZYHIBBY]

Jc is gone and never coming back

[GreenPJ]

These are the positives of course, mainly.There is also the other side of the coin which was the dismal run that he was failing to address and leaving us towards the bottom half of the league.

Kevin McCann at centre half?

The Scottish cup semis v Dunfermline?

As a fan surely the highlight is winning something. JC was the first manager to do that for us in 17 years, the negatives, every manager has them. Under Mowbray, Sproule and Benji against the Yams in the Semi was as bad if not worse than McCann at CH. The Dunfermline game I don't blame on JC I blame that squarely on the players and their hissy fit. McLeish had an abysmal run on the run up to us leaving, did that make him a bad manager.

[Bad Martini]

These are the positives of course, mainly.

There is also the other side of the coin which was the dismal run that he was failing to address and leaving us towards the bottom half of the league.

Kevin McCann at centre half?

The Scottish cup semis v Dunfermline?


Did I say "here is verbatim, what happened under John Collins tenure as Hibs manager?". Nope.

There were lows and bad ****. Some of that was down to inexperience. Some of it i believe was down to lazy, overpaid players not giving a toss. By then the rot had set in.

Its down to whom you hold accountbale for it. I give you one thing in that you have always been consistent. Not right in your unwavering support for the club line regardless right enough but consistent.....even back to the mowbray days who could dae nae wrong in yer eyes ( til he left us in the **** and still won nothing I add ).

As I said, history will record what I noted. It may record other things too....but thats another debate which you are warmly invited to have whenever you see fit)

[Bad Martini]

Collins called the Pub Team a Pub Team after a defeat at the PBS.

Fair dues. Whilst pedanting, its the BPBS remember :greengrin

[Andy74]

Did I say "here is verbatim, what happened under John Collins tenure as Hibs manager?". Nope.

There were lows and bad ****. Some of that was down to inexperience. Some of it i believe was down to lazy, overpaid players not giving a toss. By then the rot had set in.

Its down to whom you hold accountbale for it. I give you one thing in that you have always been consistent. Not right in your unwavering support for the club line regardless right enough but consistent.....even back to the mowbray days who could dae nae wrong in yer eyes ( til he left us in the **** and still won nothing I add ).

As I said, history will record what I noted. It may record other things too....but thats another debate which you are warmly invited to have whenever you see fit)

What unwavering support is that?

I liked Mowbray but also thought his efforts at trying to sign goalkeepers and a defence was mainly woeful and the gubbings we kept getting off Hearts was a bit irritating. I mainly supported him though.

JC I could take or leave. Done well intially but it became clear he had not signed all thatw ell and we were sliding down the league and playing some turgid stuff. Aimless passing from keeeper to full back, to cente half then back again. In the main supported him but the spinless way he left and the nonsense in his sequence of events turned me off him.

Mixu I didn't enjoy at all. Would quite happily have seen him go at any stage

Hughes I liked but won't deny it also went wrong.

CC I had no strong feelings when he was appointed but quite quickly wanted him out.

I judge each as they come really as you can see. I also think Petrie's time is up and have no real faith in Scott Lindsay or the other bloke from what i've seen of them.

So, what consistentncy in taking the club line were you referring to?

[brog]

So, everything good JC was responsible for. Even getting the better of RP in transfer and contract dealings. Everything bad he wasn't. Got that.

Not sure where I said that. I only pointed out a particular area where I thought we owed JC a great deal. I believe he helped earn us millions of pounds, you're fixated about him playing Kevin McCann at centre half! Eddie Turnbull dropped Alan Gordon & Jim O for Joe Harper, did that make him a bad manager? I guess it depends on your sense of perspective.

[HFC 0-7]

These are the positives of course, mainly.

There is also the other side of the coin which was the dismal run that he was failing to address and leaving us towards the bottom half of the league.

Kevin McCann at centre half?

The Scottish cup semis v Dunfermline?

I find it hard to take your points seriously, You are questioning JC's poor records when you seemed to love Yogi during calderwoods time, remind me, what was Yogi's bad run like?

As far as I can remember JC only ever lost 2 games in a row, his worst record was 4 games without a win (D2 L2). this proves my point that peoples views of JC are highly distorted. We tasted success and then assumed even after losing the players we did that it should always be the same. John Collins left Hibs on 20th December 2007 when we were in 5th place, having played 19 games. We were on 28 points W7 D7 L5. 4 points off third. Only the old firm had lost less games than us.

So dismal run? Not really, compared to when he had the talent like thomson and brown - Maybe.

Towards the bottom half of the league - not really 5th in the league, 4 points off 3rd.

[KWJ]

His signings and the Hogg McCann centre backs at Aberdeen are what put me off Collins. His signings were really really poor.

[Elephant Stone]

His signings and the Hogg McCann centre backs at Aberdeen are what put me off Collins. His signings were really really poor.

Absolutely brutal :agree:. I'd been keen on trying Collins again if the signings hadn't been quite as bad but they were horrific.

[Golden Bear]

Absolutely brutal :agree:. I'd been keen on trying Collins again if the signings hadn't been quite as bad but they were horrific.

JC's problem may have stemmed from the fact that was "out of touch" with the transfer market when he first became Hibs Manager and therefore probably had to rely on the advice of Agents and Tommy Craig. I can't think for a minute that he'd have made the signings he did if he was personally familiar with their abilities or lack of abilities of some of the duds.


The biggest regret I had with JC was the fact that Hibs were his first Managerial appointment. He will have learnt from the experience and I'd have no problem if he decided to give it a go for a second time.

[lapsedhibee]

His signings and the Hogg McCann centre backs at Aberdeen are what put me off Collins. His signings were really really poor.

Don't really understand why the McCann at Aberdeen thing comes up quite so often on here. Collins tried something out, it didn't work and McCann played very badly. As far as I remember (but happy to be corrected) McCann didn't play again in that position. Where's the serious crime here? Hughes played Nishy as a striker hunners of times. That was a crime. Collins's trial of McCann was over and done with in 90 minutes. Would you want managers never to take a risk, like the tramp Levein? :confused:

[Andy74]

I find it hard to take your points seriously, You are questioning JC's poor records when you seemed to love Yogi during calderwoods time, remind me, what was Yogi's bad run like?

As far as I can remember JC only ever lost 2 games in a row, his worst record was 4 games without a win (D2 L2). this proves my point that peoples views of JC are highly distorted. We tasted success and then assumed even after losing the players we did that it should always be the same. John Collins left Hibs on 20th December 2007 when we were in 5th place, having played 19 games. We were on 28 points W7 D7 L5. 4 points off third. Only the old firm had lost less games than us.

So dismal run? Not really, compared to when he had the talent like thomson and brown - Maybe.

Towards the bottom half of the league - not really 5th in the league, 4 points off 3rd.

That's nothing. When Hughes was here we had a dismal run that had us in 3rd place for most of it.

We were playing pretty badly latterly under JC and he didn't know really what to do about it and left before it got worse.

You're right though. When CC was here I wished Hughes was still here. i'd probbaly also almost have had Mixu here instead as well. however, my real point during that time was why, probably rightly, Hughes was ctiticised during his bad run (and well before that really) yet CC was still being backed by many of those same people.

[huggie1875]

to be honest this is all just a waste of time. There is more chance of Hearts being debt free the morn than JC returning:hibees

[HFC 0-7]

That's nothing. When Hughes was here we had a dismal run that had us in 3rd place for most of it.

We were playing pretty badly latterly under JC and he didn't know really what to do about it and left before it got worse.

You're right though. When CC was here I wished Hughes was still here. i'd probaly also almost have had Mixu here instead as well. however, my real point during that time was why, probably rightly, Hughes was ctiticised during his bad run (and well before that really) yet CC was still being backed by many of those same people.

We werent doing that badly under JC though at the end, we werent getting beat all the time and were picking up draws. We only ever got beat 2 times in a row under JC. Every team has a bad spell and its how the team work during that time. We were still competing during JC's bad spell, picking up draws, not getting turned over every week like we have been recently. JC was apparently having us play badly latterly, maybe so, but his last 8 games read as W1 D3 L4. Looking at Tony Mowbrays worst run of 8 games shows as W2 D1 L5. TM worst run of games we mid Hibs career and we werent calling for his head even although its very similar to JC's worst run.

Not sure what your points are, tear into JC because you think he isnt a good manager, yet wish Yogi was still in charge ahead of calderwood even although he took us on the worst run of games in memory. You seem to be unable to accept previous managers successes apart from Yogi.