Stf - you still don't get it

[MB62]

As per usual, STF sits at the back of the hall then goes off on one of his rants (he should have written for MHHM, would have given the Raving Reporter a run for his money) :wink:

It is this comment regarding R.P that says it all for me though and suggests that he still just does not get it, what a football is about.

"So let me tell you that in the years since 1964 when I opened a shop in Buccleuch Street I wish I'd had a team of Rod Petries.

"Much as I may have been a success in this world I would have been one of the most successful people in the world if that were the case".

Nobody, well few, is doubting the fact that Petrie has run Hibernian F.C. as a good business venture, the annual accounts, apart from this year, are 2nd to none as a football business. Where he has FAILED is running Hibernian as a FOOTBALL CLUB, what we all pay our money for on match days, to see Hibernian compete at the top end of the league and to be getting good runs in the cups. Without doubt IMO, under Petrie's leadership, barring a couple of years, Hibernian have hugely underachieved.
Petrie has made STF a successfull football business, he has not made Hibernian a successful football team.

Spot the difference STF as you might have to do something more decisive about this in the near future.

[Pretty Boy]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

As per usual, STF sits at the back of the hall then goes off on one of his rants (he should have written for MHHM, would have given the Raving Reporter a run for his money) :wink:

It is this comment regarding R.P that says it all for me though and suggests that he still just does not get it, what a football is about.

"So let me tell you that in the years since 1964 when I opened a shop in Buccleuch Street I wish I'd had a team of Rod Petries.

"Much as I may have been a success in this world I would have been one of the most successful people in the world if that were the case".

Nobody, well few, is doubting the fact that Petrie has run Hibernian F.C. as a good business venture, the annual accounts, apart from this year, are 2nd to none as a football business. Where he has FAILED is running Hibernian as a FOOTBALL CLUB, what we all pay our money for on match days, to see Hibernian compete at the top end of the league and to be getting good runs in the cups. Without doubt IMO, under Petrie's leadership, barring a couple of years, Hibernian have hugely underachieved.
Petrie has made STF a successfull football business, he has not made Hibernian a successful football team.

Spot the difference STF as you might have to do something more decisive about this in the near future.


Seems you don't get it... whilst yes we are a Football Club, we are firstly BUSINESS, wothout that structure Hibs simply would not be here.

Now to nit pick a little, could you point out where in Hibs mission statement it tells us we will get good cup runs, compete at the top end of the league. As for underachieving, in my opinion we need to be consistent at the top end and have good cup runs year in to underachieve, for now that is not happening so we are not underachieving. I think fans expectations need to be lowered a little.

[Alan62]

Since Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie took over Hibs, their objectives have always been long term. Petrie has (rightly in my opinion) focused on the development of an environment where football success is possible. While the last three managers have failed to take advantage of the structural assets available to them and haven't had the guile to fashion a competitive team from the financial resources at their disposal (which are still amongst the top half of the league), it's hard to argue that the club is not well placed to gain future success in Scottish football. If you think Hibs are in such a bad way, tell me which clubs you would swap everything (total assets and playing squad) with?

[BEEJ]

Now to nit pick a little, could you point out where in Hibs mission statement it tells us we will get good cup runs, compete at the top end of the league. As for underachieving, in my opinion we need to be consistent at the top end and have good cup runs year in to underachieve, for now that is not happening so we are not underachieving.

Don't follow the logic of this. Sorry!


I think fans expectations need to be lowered a little.
Eh, no!

No-one has any expectations about this side anymore other than they might, with a following wind and some favourable refereeing decisions, avoid relegation this season. That's a First Division mentality.

I can't agree that our expectations must now drop even further.

[sKipper]

Since Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie took over Hibs, their objectives have always been long term. Petrie has (rightly in my opinion) focused on the development of an environment where football success is possible. While the last three managers have failed to take advantage of the structural assets available to them and haven't had the guile to fashion a competitive team from the financial resources at their disposal (which are still amongst the top half of the league), it's hard to argue that the club is not well placed to gain future success in Scottish football. If you think Hibs are in such a bad way, tell me which clubs you would swap everything (total assets and playing squad) with?

:confused:

I take it you are a share holder ? :devil:

[Alan62]

:confused:

I take it you are a share holder ? :devil:

I am a shareholder but didn't attend the meeting. Like all Hibs fans, I've been suffering in the stand for a while but that doesn't change my view that the board's strategy is correct. Look at our neighbours who have spent heavily on players. Would anybody on here like to be like them?

[down the slope]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.


And why are we not competing for honours consistently ?, why are we bottom of the league ,why have we had to watch eye bleeding football for the past three years ?. the return you quote is not good enough for me.

[Big Frank]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.

Which doesn't really mean anything other than outwith the 50s and 70s, Hibernian were, well, underacheiving.....or in other words, consistantly *****, should RP not be questioned on this because others at the helm of Hibernian have a poor record also?

Were ***** at football, and I think that by STF homing in on how barrie RP is, the OP is reminding STF that we are a football club. Thats my take. Sorry to the OP if I am missing the point entirely :greengrin

[Captain Trips]

Since Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie took over Hibs, their objectives have always been long term. Petrie has (rightly in my opinion) focused on the development of an environment where football success is possible. While the last three managers have failed to take advantage of the structural assets available to them and haven't had the guile to fashion a competitive team from the financial resources at their disposal (which are still amongst the top half of the league), it's hard to argue that the club is not well placed to gain future success in Scottish football. If you think Hibs are in such a bad way, tell me which clubs you would swap everything (total assets and playing squad) with?

Alan I do not think anyone disagrees the club is in place to do well due to some of the work done by RP and co, you talk about swapping assets and I wouldnt with any club but these are things done in past by people good at it, we need to move on and I think the focus is on other things that RP is not so strong at and the proof is there, we have the structure to be 4th pushing 3rd and we managed it once in 5yrs.

When we talk of the good things RP has done they are some time ago yes his legacy will remain for us to go on from but not with him doing it, he is not what we need football wise. RP has used his strengths to put things in place for somebody to use their strengths in utilising that for me is not RP.

While RP has made good decisions on business front his actual football ones are far less successful this is not a weakness he cant do everything to same level, he needs to step aside but I think he is to stubborn to see he hasnt the papers as a football club chairman.

[Alan62]

No-one has any expectations about this side anymore other than they might, with a following wind and some favourable refereeing decisions, avoid relegation this season. That's a First Division mentality.


Completely disagree with this. Just a few weeks ago, I went into the Rangers cup game thinking if we win this, we'll win the League Cup. I certainly believed they were capable of pulling off that kind of result. Still think we can finish top six with the current squad too.

[Beefster]

Seems you don't get it... whilst yes we are a Football Club, we are firstly BUSINESS, wothout that structure Hibs simply would not be here.

Now to nit pick a little, could you point out where in Hibs mission statement it tells us we will get good cup runs, compete at the top end of the league. As for underachieving, in my opinion we need to be consistent at the top end and have good cup runs year in to underachieve, for now that is not happening so we are not underachieving. I think fans expectations need to be lowered a little.

In that case, most other businesses would not tolerate losses and >25% drop in custom without fundamental changes.

[Saorsa]

Seems you don't get it... whilst yes we are a Football Club, we are firstly BUSINESS, wothout that structure Hibs simply would not be here.
Now to nit pick a little, could you point out where in Hibs mission statement it tells us we will get good cup runs, compete at the top end of the league. As for underachieving, in my opinion we need to be consistent at the top end and have good cup runs year in to underachieve, for now that is not happening so we are not underachieving. I think fans expectations need to be lowered a little.Really!

If my expectations were any lower than they are now I'd seriously be questioning why and WTF I'm spending 400+ quid on exactly.

[MB62]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.

So in the context of Scottish football, you are happy with what our club has done on the football field. We ARE one of the big clubs in Scotland, at least off the park, on the park we have been also rans and I have bigger desires for Hibernian than what we have, or rather have not achieved.



Seems you don't get it... whilst yes we are a Football Club, we are firstly BUSINESS, without that structure Hibs simply would not be here.

Now to nit pick a little, could you point out where in Hibs mission statement it tells us we will get good cup runs, compete at the top end of the league. As for underachieving, in my opinion we need to be consistent at the top end and have good cup runs year in to underachieve, for now that is not happening so we are not underachieving. I think fans expectations need to be lowered a little.

As I don't understand the first points in your reply, I will have to question the bit in bold.
If we have to lower our expectations any further we would be as well going part time and play Sunday amatuer football.
Shirley as one of Scotland top 4 or 5 clubs we should be looking at a far higher level of consistency as far as league and cup challenges go.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Don't follow the logic of this. Sorry!


Eh, no!

No-one has any expectations about this side anymore other than they might, with a following wind and some favourable refereeing decisions, avoid relegation this season. That's a First Division mentality.

I can't agree that our expectations must now drop even further.

I was merely measuring achievement v underachievement based on what the op was expecting <<Top end of the league and good cup runs with the form we find ourselves in>>

[Pretty Boy]

And why are we not competing for honours consistently ?, why are we bottom of the league ,why have we had to watch eye bleeding football for the past three years ?. the return you quote is not good enough for me.

We aren't competing for honours consistently for the same reason as every other club in Scotland- the Old Firm.

I'd be interested to hear what makes you believe the return over a 10 year period I've quoted isn't good enough. It compares well to almost every other post war decade as I stated, even the tornadoes only won one major trophy. That return compares favourably to almost every other club in the league. If I'm correct only ourselves, Hearts and Dundee United have.won a trophy outwith the OF in the last 10 years.

Of course if the argument is Hibs have consistently underacheived for several decades that's fair enough, but its a different argument from Petrie and Farmer have underacheived.

I should add I'm not against change, just change for changes sake and I don't believe the last 2 years to be acceptable either.

[bawheid]

In that case, most other businesses would not tolerate losses and >25% drop in custom without fundamental changes.

Such as re-structuring the board and replacing a senior manager. :agree:

[Cropley10]

Since Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie took over Hibs, their objectives have always been long term. Petrie has (rightly in my opinion) focused on the development of an environment where football success is possible. While the last three managers have failed to take advantage of the structural assets available to them and haven't had the guile to fashion a competitive team from the financial resources at their disposal (which are still amongst the top half of the league), it's hard to argue that the club is not well placed to gain future success in Scottish football. If you think Hibs are in such a bad way, tell me which clubs you would swap everything (total assets and playing squad) with?

Very good post.

What becomes more and more apparent is the fall in fortunes under CC and how important the next appointment now is.

Someone IS going to get this right. There's no reason why they won't.

[BEEJ]

Completely disagree with this. Just a few weeks ago, I went into the Rangers cup game thinking if we win this, we'll win the League Cup. I certainly believed they were capable of pulling off that kind of result. Still think we can finish top six with the current squad too.
Well that's you spoken for.

Care to explain the thousands of empty seats to your right and left on match-day at ER?

[Captain Trips]

If as I believe what RP has done in playing part in building stadium to finish, having one of the best training facilities in Scotland and argue UK and in reducing debts then based on all our rivals should we not be looking at 4th maybe 3rd as the target.

I am reading top 6 a lot if our target is top 6 then is all the infrastructure not a bit of a waste to have that as a target? RP if you pardon the pun had built a rod for his own back, the club should be looking for 4th with how it has been handled off the park and credit to them but it has failed to manage this except once under Hughes, as I said above everything is in place for the right man RP has proved in direct football matters he is not that man, his success off the park is good on the park since the infrastucture is in place and he has had more focus on the football it hasnt worked and I do not think it ever will.

[Beefster]

Such as re-structuring the board and replacing a senior manager. :agree:

Not many failing businesses get rid of a function manager every year, just move the CEO into a new role and carry on getting it wrong. One of the perks of not being accountable to many folk, I suppose.

[sKipper]

Such as re-structuring the board and replacing a senior manager. :agree:

Such as multiple restructuring of the board and the replacement of 8 senior managers.

And we're still going backwards. :confused:

[Pretty Boy]

Very good post.

What becomes more and more apparent is the fall in fortunes under CC and how important the next appointment now is.

Someone IS going to get this right. There's no reason why they won't.

Dundee United always spring to mind here.

For about 5 years they were always tipped to do well, seemed to have everything sorted to do well bit never did. Then they hit on the right men in Levein and Houston and got a Scottish Cup out of it. Eddie Thompson went from fairly popular to hero in about half a season.

[sKipper]

I am a shareholder but didn't attend the meeting. Like all Hibs fans, I've been suffering in the stand for a while but that doesn't change my view that the board's strategy is correct. Look at our neighbours who have spent heavily on players. Would anybody on here like to be like them?

Do you think that Hibs shareholders are totally out of touch with the ordinary fan ?

[greenflyer]

Yes he does.

[heretoday]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.

Hear Hear! I can't see the problem with Petrie myself. What difference would a different chairman make? I suppose he might have a bit more patience and stick with his managers longer. But then the boo boys wouldn't like that either.

Alex Miller got a constant slagging from certain Hibbys yet he actually won a trophy, something only he, Turnbull, and Collins have done since the 50s. You'll never please everyone. Fingers crossed the next manager proves to be a winner. It might be JJ and he might be successful playing Hearts-style hoofball and then there will be folk complaining Hibs are boring or whatever!

[Makaveli]

If as I believe what RP has done in playing part in building stadium to finish, having one of the best training facilities in Scotland and argue UK and in reducing debts then based on all our rivals should we not be looking at 4th maybe 3rd as the target.

I am reading top 6 a lot if our target is top 6 then is all the infrastructure not a bit of a waste to have that as a target? RP if you pardon the pun had built a rod for his own back, the club should be looking for 4th with how it has been handled off the park and credit to them but it has failed to manage this except once under Hughes, as I said above everything is in place for the right man RP has proved in direct football matters he is not that man, his success off the park is good on the park since the infrastucture is in place and he has had more focus on the football it hasnt worked and I do not think it ever will.

Without doubt. Clubs like St Mirren and Inverness should have top six as their target - it should be a given for Hibs like it is for Hearts (in their fans eyes at least). With the facilities we have 4th should be the minimum expectation and 3rd the target. We should be looking to challenge for 2nd in years when one of the OF is as gash as Celtic are now and the Huns were in 05/06. If not, what's the point?

[Speedway]

I'm not convinced that it's STF who 'doesn't get it'

Any look at who has finished 3rd-5th in the SPL year on year shows you that unless you're spending like the Yams, it's a lottery.

Hibs are unmatched in creating an environment for success. In recent years they've got the footballing side completely wrong and have admitted so and made changes to avoid making that mistake again.

STF is about as qualified as anyone to comment on what a board of directors should be doing to create a sustainable going concern.

The problem is, the product we sell don't work. We have sacked the production manager and are hiring his replacement whilst being able to afford someone who can create a quality product, thanks to having run the business well to this point.

If the directors demonstrate that they still can't spot a manager in what is again, largely a lottery, (beyond Geoff Brown, which SPL board keep getting their managerial appointments 'right'?) then we question who should be doing the hiring.

RP is certainly not blameless as we all know but his work at Hibernian is certainly not fully understood and absorbed by the fans either.

[Cropley10]

I'm not convinced that it's STF who 'doesn't get it'

Any look at who has finished 3rd-5th in the SPL year on year shows you that unless you're spending like the Yams, it's a lottery.

Hibs are unmatched in creating an environment for success. In recent years they've got the footballing side completely wrong and have admitted so and made changes to avoid making that mistake again.

STF is about as qualified as anyone to comment on what a board of directors should be doing to create a sustainable going concern.

The problem is, the product we sell don't work. We have sacked the production manager and are hiring his replacement whilst being able to afford someone who can create a quality product, thanks to having run the business well to this point.

If the directors demonstrate that they still can't spot a manager in what is again, largely a lottery, (beyond Geoff Brown, which SPL board keep getting their managerial appointments 'right'?) then we question who should be doing the hiring.

RP is certainly not blameless as we all know but his work at Hibernian is certainly not fully understood and absorbed by the fans either.

Correct. :agree:

[MB62]

Which doesn't really mean anything other than outwith the 50s and 70s, Hibernian were, well, underacheiving.....or in other words, consistantly *****, should RP not be questioned on this because others at the helm of Hibernian have a poor record also?

Were ***** at football, and I think that by STF homing in on how barrie RP is, the OP is reminding STF that we are a football club. Thats my take. Sorry to the OP if I am missing the point entirely :greengrin

:agree: :agree: exactly

[Captain Trips]

Without doubt. Clubs like St Mirren and Inverness should have top six as their target - it should be a given for Hibs like it is for Hearts (in their fans eyes at least). With the facilities we have 4th should be the minimum expectation and 3rd the target. We should be looking to challenge for 2nd in years when one of the OF is as gash as Celtic are now and the Huns were in 05/06. If not, what's the point?

The good work has been done but it is slowly getting undone by the lack of success on the park, we reduce debts then run things poorly that turn off the support so that stadium is not as full as it could be thus lose money, we have to pay off managers as they turn out badly, the lessons not learned with all the mess with CC. They had a go and are not right for the football side the proof is there with how good the off park to on park stuff is.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

:agree: :agree: exactly

Which his reply would we are a business running a football club. Cant have it both ways i am afraid. :agree::wink:

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not convinced that it's STF who 'doesn't get it'

Any look at who has finished 3rd-5th in the SPL year on year shows you that unless you're spending like the Yams, it's a lottery.

Hibs are unmatched in creating an environment for success. In recent years they've got the footballing side completely wrong and have admitted so and made changes to avoid making that mistake again.

STF is about as qualified as anyone to comment on what a board of directors should be doing to create a sustainable going concern.

The problem is, the product we sell don't work. We have sacked the production manager and are hiring his replacement whilst being able to afford someone who can create a quality product, thanks to having run the business well to this point.

If the directors demonstrate that they still can't spot a manager in what is again, largely a lottery, (beyond Geoff Brown, which SPL board keep getting their managerial appointments 'right'?) then we question who should be doing the hiring.

RP is certainly not blameless as we all know but his work at Hibernian is certainly not fully understood and absorbed by the fans either.

fantastic post.

[GreenPJ]

If as I believe what RP has done in playing part in building stadium to finish, having one of the best training facilities in Scotland and argue UK and in reducing debts then based on all our rivals should we not be looking at 4th maybe 3rd as the target.

I am reading top 6 a lot if our target is top 6 then is all the infrastructure not a bit of a waste to have that as a target? RP if you pardon the pun had built a rod for his own back, the club should be looking for 4th with how it has been handled off the park and credit to them but it has failed to manage this except once under Hughes, as I said above everything is in place for the right man RP has proved in direct football matters he is not that man, his success off the park is good on the park since the infrastucture is in place and he has had more focus on the football it hasnt worked and I do not think it ever will.

Is the argument not then that we need say a Director of Football to work with the Board as opposed to replacing the chairman with a 'football' man but who may not have the same commercial expertise?

[HibsMax]

I shudder to think what people would be saying if Hibs were approaching administration.

The football is crap but at least we still have a club that we can support and a pretty solid foundation to build upon. What I will say though is that foundation has been in place for some time now and it's time to get the rest of our house in order. I don't necessarily believe that we HAVE to get rid of our current board for that to happen though.

[Captain Trips]

Is the argument not then that we need say a Director of Football to work with the Board as opposed to replacing the chairman with a 'football' man but who may not have the same commercial expertise?

I would like a director of football idea however I just feel RP no matter what is just IMO somebody who will want involved, the guarantee is RP keeps out of it and I do not think it would happen. IMO we need a clearout to progress that is my belief, I said we would be having this conversation in 12-18mths when we hired CC and I believe we will have it again if it stays as is.

[Captain Trips]

I shudder to think what people would be saying if Hibs were approaching administration.

The football is crap but at least we still have a club that we can support and a pretty solid foundation to build upon. What I will say though is that foundation has been in place for some time now and it's time to get the rest of our house in order. I don't necessarily believe that we HAVE to get rid of our current board for that to happen though.

I think we do Max, they have made some really bad decisions over last few years, not only with managers but with all these short deals going through, I think Hibs are in a bad way, you compare that to the work done 4, 5, 6 years ago off the park and you could hardly find fault, it is hard to get an allrounder and RP isnt one, the proof is there he has made several key errors, and I think CC in the summer was a dreadful mistake and maybe the worst.

[MB62]

Which his reply would we are a business running a football club. Cant have it both ways i am afraid. :agree::wink:

Then the business is failing the football club.

[HibsMax]

I think we do Max, they have made some really bad decisions over last few years, not only with managers but with all these short deals going through, I think Hibs are in a bad way, you compare that to the work done 4, 5, 6 years ago off the park and you could hardly find fault, it is hard to get an allrounder and RP isnt one, the proof is there he has made several key errors, and I think CC in the summer was a dreadful mistake and maybe the worst.

But why do we have to sack the board? Can't we just bolster it with someone with more football knowledge like has been suggested on here? I realise that we already have a packed boardroom so perhaps someone needs to move on to make room but getting rid of the man / men who have done what I think is a great job over the last few years seems like a mistake to me. You say yourself that finding a good all-rounder is hard. Imagine if we replaced RP with a football savvy guy who then mismanaged Hibs into the ground. Hey, at least we would be playing great football.

[Captain Trips]

But why do we have to sack the board? Can't we just bolster it with someone with more football knowledge like has been suggested on here? I realise that we already have a packed boardroom so perhaps someone needs to move on to make room but getting rid of the man / men who have done what I think is a great job over the last few years seems like a mistake to me. You say yourself that finding a good all-rounder is hard. Imagine if we replaced RP with a football savvy guy who then mismanaged Hibs into the ground. Hey, at least we would be playing great football.

I would argue we are in process of being mismanaged at the moment, I do not think RP should stay on due to previous work, he has had a really good shot at it and found wanting, the mismanagement is happening now, they are way off pace in numbers at ground and results and I do not see why or how with all the mistakes made he will turn it.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Then the business is failing the football club.

You dont say...

900k down, less bums on seats etc - I do believe this is why they are re-thinking their business model.

[MB62]

You dont say...

900k down, less bums on seats etc - I do believe this is why they are re-thinking their business model.

Scott, I just don't know what side you are arguing on now, you have me beat. How can I possibly enjoy a good arguement when you keep changing sides :greengrin

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Scott, I just don't know what side you are arguing on now, you have me beat. How can I possibly enjoy a good arguement when you keep changing sides :greengrin

haha.. I dont know myself... :greengrin

[HibsMax]

I would argue we are in process of being mismanaged at the moment, I do not think RP should stay on due to previous work, he has had a really good shot at it and found wanting, the mismanagement is happening now, they are way off pace in numbers at ground and results and I do not see why or how with all the mistakes made he will turn it.

(a) poor managerial appointments (hindsight is 20/20).
(b) short-term contracts - I do not think that is what is hindering Hibs right now. If anything it could affect us at the end of the season, certainly not now though.

What are the other areas of mismanagement?

I think we're in the process of change and that is what the fans have been screaming out for. Some fans have been screaming for RP's head but apparently he's taking a step back. So the past few days have had us sack the manager (a popular opinion) and RP taking a step back. Are you not content to see what fortunes that brings us over the next few months?

[Captain Trips]

(a) poor managerial appointments (hindsight is 20/20).
(b) short-term contracts - I do not think that is what is hindering Hibs right now. If anything it could affect us at the end of the season, certainly not now though.

What are the other areas of mismanagement?

I think we're in the process of change and that is what the fans have been screaming out for. Some fans have been screaming for RP's head but apparently he's taking a step back. So the past few days have had us sack the manager (a popular opinion) and RP taking a step back. Are you not content to see what fortunes that brings us over the next few months?

That is more than enough mismanagement that I believe is in place, your suggestion was possible mismangement of a new person I am giving you actual well IMO mismanagment, I think short term contracts are an issue, hindsight or not did they make poor choices yes they did, are the crowds lower than they should be yes, could we be higher in SPL based on all we have at disposal - yes. No hindsight in what occured in summer with CC if they thought he was going to turn it around then that goes to show you they shouldnt be near it, they cost us money and will now cost us more. Like it or not there is mismangement at Hibs and there need be no other areas those are very important areas.

[Saorsa]

(a) poor managerial appointments (hindsight is 20/20).
(b) short-term contracts - I do not think that is what is hindering Hibs right now. If anything it could affect us at the end of the season, certainly not now though.

What are the other areas of mismanagement?

I think we're in the process of change and that is what the fans have been screaming out for. Some fans have been screaming for RP's head but apparently he's taking a step back. So the past few days have had us sack the manager (a popular opinion) and RP taking a step back. Are you not content to see what fortunes that brings us over the next few months?Because I dinnae believe that as long as he is involved he winnae be having the final say no matter who has what title or is put forward as the public face of Hibernian FC. I'll believe he's not when he's not involved.


Big statement from RP - club is ready for challenges under my chairmanshipIs that the same as stepping back?

[allmodcons]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.

Agree 100% PB. From reading some of the posts on here you'd think very other club apart from Hibs have had great times over the last 20 or so years.
Since the demise of the new firm, every club has struggled to compete with the Old Firm. Hibs are no different to most except, of course, that we've being
competing without running up an unsustainable level of debt.

[Ray_]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.



While you mentioned the fifties & 70's you neglected the sixties, where Hibs often played terrific football & often it was against top European opposition, via one of the competitions, although they didn't win trophies, given the standard they regularly attained, it certainly felt we supported one of Scotland's top teams, which is quite some distance from where we are now.

The difference between the fifties through to the seventies and recent years is that we often had good teams & occasionally suffered from indifference, now indifference is usual & occasionally we have teams that will entertain the fans. Another thing you neglect is that the standard of opposition was so much higher & a number of Hibs teams from those three decades would have walked this league.

[MB62]

Agree 100% PB. From reading some of the posts on here you'd think very other club apart from Hibs have had great times over the last 20 or so years.
Since the demise of the new firm, every club has struggled to compete with the Old Firm. Hibs are no different to most except, of course, that we've being
competing without running up an unsustainable level of debt.

We're not 'every other club' though, we are Hibernian F.C. potentially the 3rd biggest club in the country but have struggled to compete with 'every other club'.

If the ambition of Hibs and Hibs fans is just to be like 'every other club' then that will not do for me.
I just don't get this lack of ambition amongst some Hibs fans, especially given the resources the club should have available to them.

[Alex Trager]

In that case, most other businesses would not tolerate losses and >25% drop in custom without fundamental changes.
Finally someone that see's hibs for what they actually are at the moment, a failign business. People say that we are very well run, but let me ask them why it is they think that? Hibs are a football club, we all know how a football club makes a profit; winning trophies etc... In order for hibs to make money they need to be winning. Now with all the appointments recently-players and managers- this has not been happening. So tell me how hibs are NOW a well run business? They're not making much or any profit-near where they could and should- for one soul reason; the team on the park.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I often wonder what the fans of Queens Park, Clyde, East Fife,Third Lanark etc feel were the expectations for their clubs.

[Beefster]

Hear Hear! I can't see the problem with Petrie myself. What difference would a different chairman make? I suppose he might have a bit more patience and stick with his managers longer. But then the boo boys wouldn't like that either.

Alex Miller got a constant slagging from certain Hibbys yet he actually won a trophy, something only he, Turnbull, and Collins have done since the 50s. You'll never please everyone. Fingers crossed the next manager proves to be a winner. It might be JJ and he might be successful playing Hearts-style hoofball and then there will be folk complaining Hibs are boring or whatever!

You don't think that there is anything wrong at Hibs beyond the on the pitch performance?

There seems to be this perception amongst the support that Rodders' role is purely to balance spending to whatever the income might be and appoint/sack managers.

[Part/Time Supporter]

While you mentioned the fifties & 70's you neglected the sixties, where Hibs often played terrific football & often it was against top European opposition, via one of the competitions, although they didn't win trophies, given the standard they regularly attained, it certainly felt we supported one of Scotland's top teams, which is quite some distance from where we are now.

The difference between the fifties through to the seventies and recent years is that we often had good teams & occasionally suffered from indifference, now indifference is usual & occasionally we have teams that will entertain the fans. Another thing you neglect is that the standard of opposition was so much higher & a number of Hibs teams from those three decades would have walked this league.

Most of that has more to do with the general decline in standard of player rather than anything Hibs have (or haven't) done.

[Kaiser1962]

In that case, most other businesses would not tolerate losses and >25% drop in custom without fundamental changes.


No they wouldnt. They would look at the market they are in and see that everybody else was incurring substantial losses. In most other businesses they would shut the doors.

[jdships]

I'm not convinced that it's STF who 'doesn't get it'

Any look at who has finished 3rd-5th in the SPL year on year shows you that unless you're spending like the Yams, it's a lottery.

Hibs are unmatched in creating an environment for success. In recent years they've got the footballing side completely wrong and have admitted so and made changes to avoid making that mistake again.

STF is about as qualified as anyone to comment on what a board of directors should be doing to create a sustainable going concern.

The problem is, the product we sell don't work. We have sacked the production manager and are hiring his replacement whilst being able to afford someone who can create a quality product, thanks to having run the business well to this point.

If the directors demonstrate that they still can't spot a manager in what is again, largely a lottery, (beyond Geoff Brown, which SPL board keep getting their managerial appointments 'right'?) then we question who should be doing the hiring.

RP is certainly not blameless as we all know but his work at Hibernian is certainly not fully understood and absorbed by the fans either.



Correct (2) Good post :thumbsup:

[Ray_]

Most of that has more to do with the general decline in standard of player rather than anything Hibs have (or haven't) done.

How do you work that one out? The general decline is the same for all teams in Scotland, Hibs position in Scottish football was rarely questioned during the fifties, sixties & seventies because they got better managers and players than the clubs rated below us. It would still be the same today, if we operated as effectively as in those era's, irrespective of the particular standard of the day.

[Sergio sledge]

You don't think that there is anything wrong at Hibs beyond the on the pitch performance?

There seems to be this perception amongst the support that Rodders' role is purely to balance spending to whatever the income might be and appoint/sack managers.

Out of interest, what duties does RP undertake which interfere with the manager (who RP hired) using his budget (the 4th biggest in the SPL) to put a team on the pitch that will play good football and win games for the club securing us at least 4th place in the league? Mowbray managed it on a fraction of the budget we have now, to a lesser extent Collins managed it.

I'm genuinely interested to hear exactly what RP does which stops our manager and players from performing to the best of their abilities and putting a successful team on the park.

[Kaiser1962]

Out of interest, what duties does RP undertake which interfere with the manager (who RP hired) using his budget (the 4th biggest in the SPL) to put a team on the pitch that will play good football and win games for the club securing us at least 4th place in the league? Mowbray managed it on a fraction of the budget we have now, to a lesser extent Collins managed it.

I'm genuinely interested to hear exactly what RP does which stops our manager and players from performing to the best of their abilities and putting a successful team on the park.

It was season 2009-2010 but, generally, our wage bill is smaller than Aberdeen's.

[Ray_]

I'm not convinced that it's STF who 'doesn't get it'

Any look at who has finished 3rd-5th in the SPL year on year shows you that unless you're spending like the Yams, it's a lottery.

Hibs are unmatched in creating an environment for success. In recent years they've got the footballing side completely wrong and have admitted so and made changes to avoid making that mistake again.

STF is about as qualified as anyone to comment on what a board of directors should be doing to create a sustainable going concern.

The problem is, the product we sell don't work. We have sacked the production manager and are hiring his replacement whilst being able to afford someone who can create a quality product, thanks to having run the business well to this point.

If the directors demonstrate that they still can't spot a manager in what is again, largely a lottery, (beyond Geoff Brown, which SPL board keep getting their managerial appointments 'right'?) then we question who should be doing the hiring.

RP is certainly not blameless as we all know but his work at Hibernian is certainly not fully understood and absorbed by the fans either.

They have made the same mistake time & time again, that's why we are losing money & fans and the day job [the football] is atrocious.

Petrie said sorry for Calderwood & somewhere on here hindsight was mentioned, a majority of fans on here, in the summer, had the hindsight to know that with Calderwood's record and actions [or lack of them], was a disaster waiting to happen. The result of just that episode alone has cost the club a pretty penny, I would say around 500K in lost comp received & having to pay out comp as well as the £1,000's lost through lost season tickets/walk up fans/merchandise & hospitality, through the fact that people have given up on the club.

STF may be right about RP's commitment, however, commitment alone doesn't wash, they need somebody who knows what they are doing with regard to the football side of the operation & all they have done is pass the buck on to two other non-football board members.

[hibiedude]

They have made the same mistake time & time again, that's why we are losing money & fans and the day job [the football] is atrocious.

Petrie said sorry for Calderwood & somewhere on here hindsight was mentioned, a majority of fans on here, in the summer, had the hindsight to know that with Calderwood's record and actions [or lack of them], was a disaster waiting to happen. The result of just that episode alone has cost the club a pretty penny, I would say around 500K in lost comp & having to pay out comp as well as the £1,000's lost through lost season tickets/walk up fans/merchandise & hospitality, through the fact that people have given up on the club.

STF may be right about RP's commitment, however, commitment alone doesn't wash, they need somebody who knows what they are doing with regard to the football side of the operation & all they have done is pass the buck on to two other non-football board members.

100% Correct on every point made but someone will come along and say your not a true fan because you dare to question what direction Petrie is talking the club.

someone said if Kwik Fit was performing the same way as the team has over the last 3 years STF would have sacked the lot of them long ago.

Time will tell who is right and who was wrong all i'm interested in at the end of the day is 3 points on a saturday and the product being of a standard that I would pay to watch it.

[marinello59]

100% Correct on every point made but someone will come along and say your not a true fan because you dare to question what direction Petrie is talking the club.

someone said if Kwik Fit was performing the same way as the team has over the last 3 years STF would have sacked the lot of them long ago.

Time will tell who is right and who was wrong all i'm interested in at the end of the day is 3 points on a saturday and the product being of a standard that I would pay to watch it.

And someone will question your love for the club or backbone if you don't join a demo to get Petrie out. Pointless and petty no matter which side of the argument you are on but it isn't restricted to one side.

[hibiedude]

And someone will question your love for the club or backbone if you don't join a demo to get Petrie out. Pointless and petty no matter which side of the argument you are on but it isn't restricted to one side.

I would never join a demo because there is better ways to make your point and 1000s agree each week by staying away.

Not everyone accepts the rubbish coming out of Easter Road and my backbone is fine according to my last health check. :wink:

[Kaiser1962]

I would never join a demo because there is better ways to make your point and 1000s agree each week by staying away.

Not everyone accepts the rubbish coming out of Easter Road and my backbone is fine according to my last health check. :wink:


And by staying away they still expect that the club will manage to continue.

[Pretty Boy]

As an aside I notice a lot of people referring to the football side and the business side, surely in this day and age they are one and the same, even if fans don't see it.

When Abramovich first took over Chelsea one of his first signings wasn't some mono named South American but was Peter Kenyon. The man who oversaw a large part of Manchester Uniteds transition from big football club to global brand.

[The_Todd]

Rod Petrie is no longer the Chief Exec of Hibernian Football Club, he's now just the chairman of the board. Why is it Rod Petrie is the only board member ever singled out for abuse? Why don't we ever target the incumbent Chief Exec?

[Sudds_1]

Really!

If my expectations were any lower than they are now I'd seriously be questioning why and WTF I'm spending 400+ quid on exactly.

:greengrin I already have been! for 2 seasons now..........................:greengrin

[RIP]

Here's my response to you Sir Tom


You turn up at the AGM and pretend you know what's goin on with Hibs - you clearly don't
You say Petrie lives and breathes Hibs. My last boss was equally dedicated. Trouble is he wasn't delivering the goods. Endeavour isn't enough I'm afraid. Football is a results business
The product Hibs are selling is very poor. The worst home form in the SPL won't shift many season tickets
The style of football is unacceptable regardless of results
The lack of fitness of players during Rod's tenure is also unacceptable
Employee discipline during Rod's tenure is the worst in the SPL, has been for a decade and regularly brings embarassment to our supporters
Engagement with supporters is limited to one-way PR exercises that merely tick a box and change nothing of consequence
Manager turnover proves we are a poor employer. Some are sacked but most resign
None of the present board have exhibited the commercial flair we expect (although we have to wonder whether Fife et al get a free reign). Do we need to recruit more entrepreneurial types to our board? We need successful business leaders - not administrators who merely 'do'
The clubs reeks of a failure and underachievement culture


In short - the present Hibs doesn't deliver to the expectations of many loyal supporters in so many key areas. Were we not so loyal, more of us would have walked away. However some of us are prepared to campaign for higher standards. This club is in our hearts and in our blood. This is OUR club - it doesn't belong to the present incumbents

[smurf]

The irony of Rod saying that its a results driven business wasn't lost on me as Sir Tom showered the praise of Rod...

[Kaiser1962]

As an aside I notice a lot of people referring to the football side and the business side, surely in this day and age they are one and the same, even if fans don't see it.

When Abramovich first took over Chelsea one of his first signings wasn't some mono named South American but was Peter Kenyon. The man who oversaw a large part of Manchester Uniteds transition from big football club to global brand.


:top marks

[Hibbyradge]

Here's my response to you Sir Tom


You turn up at the AGM and pretend you know what's goin on with Hibs - you clearly don't
You say Petrie lives and breathes Hibs. My last boss was equally dedicated. Trouble is he wasn't delivering the goods. Endeavour isn't enough I'm afraid. Football is a results business
The product Hibs are selling is very poor. The worst home form in the SPL won't shift many season tickets
The style of football is unacceptable regardless of results
The lack of fitness of players during Rod's tenure is also unacceptable
Employee discipline during Rod's tenure is the worst in the SPL, has been for a decade and regularly brings embarassment to our supporters
Engagement with supporters is limited to one-way PR exercises that merely tick a box and change nothing of consequence
Manager turnover proves we are a poor employer. Some are sacked but most resign
None of the present board haven't exhibited the commercial flair we expect (although we have to wonder whether Fife et al get a free reign). Do we need to recruit more entrepreneurial types to our board? We need successful business leaders - not administrators who merely 'do'
The clubs reeks of a failure and underachievement culture


In short - the present Hibs doesn't deliver to the expectations of many loyal supporters in so many key areas. Were we not so loyal, more of us would have walked away. However some of us are prepared to campaign for higher standards. This club is in our hearts and in our blood. This is OUR club - it doesn't belong to the present incumbents

That's interesting.

Petrie is to blame for the players fitness levels and discipline record.

You clearly think he should interfere more with the football side of things.

That's a unique, but challenging viewpoint.

"Most managers resign". I thought they either went on to bigger jobs or, apart from John Collins, got sacked.

Who else resigned?

[--------]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.


Actually, Hibs were a major force in Scottish and European football from the end of the Second World War until the mid-1970's. We didn't win a lot of trophies, true, but we consistently fielded good teams, we brought through some of the best players the post-war game saw, and were able to compete with teams at the top of the European game.

According to Farmer, we couldn't have a better chairman than Petrie. So presumably Farmer's well satisfied with the way things have been going over the past few years. Players in, players out, very few youngsters coming through, a revolving door to the manager's office, gates and revenue falling and everyone I know increasingly peed-off with the way the club's being run. A Golden Age, in fact.

I know why his name's 'Rod' - he's Sir Thomas Tom's LIGHTNING-ROD - there to deflect trouble away from the head of the Big Boss.

With the resources and facilities we have, we should be aspiring to a top-six place every season, decent cup-runs reasonably often, and more involvement in Europe than the occasional qualification immediately followed by a precipitate exit at the hands of a European mediocrity just a little bit less mediocre than we are ourselves. And THAT's only as a start - the board (and owner) should be aiming to build the club into something significant in the European game - a team worthy of at least a modicum of respect at Europa League level.

If the infrastructure's there, as it seems to be, what's stopping them beginning to build up the playing side of the club? That, in case they don't realise it, is the IMPORTANT side - the reason the whole thing exists, after all.

Farmer and Petrie are joined at the hip - that's clear as daylight, has been for ages. We're stuck with them both, regardless.

And the OP's absolutely right - Farmer really doesn't get it. If he doesn't get it soon, where are Hibs going to be in five years time?

[down the slope]

Actually, Hibs were a major force in Scottish and European football from the end of the Second World War until the mid-1970's. We didn't win a lot of trophies, true, but we consistently fielded good teams, we brought through some of the best players the post-war game saw, and were able to compete with teams at the top of the European game.

According to Farmer, we couldn't have a better chairman than Petrie. So presumably Farmer's well satisfied with the way things have been going over the past few years. Players in, players out, very few youngsters coming through, a revolving door to the manager's office, gates and revenue falling and everyone I know increasingly peed-off with the way the club's being run. A Golden Age, in fact.

I know why his name's 'Rod' - he's Sir Thomas Tom's LIGHTNING-ROD - there to deflect trouble away from the head of the Big Boss.

With the resources and facilities we have, we should be aspiring to a top-six place every season, decent cup-runs reasonably often, and more involvement in Europe than the occasional qualification immediately followed by a precipitate exit at the hands of a European mediocrity just a little bit less mediocre than we are ourselves. And THAT's only as a start - the board (and owner) should be aiming to build the club into something significant in the European game - a team worthy of at least a modicum of respect at Europa League level.

If the infrastructure's there, as it seems to be, what's stopping them beginning to build up the playing side of the club? That, in case they don't realise it, is the IMPORTANT side - the reason the whole thing exists, after all.

Farmer and Petrie are joined at the hip - that's clear as daylight, has been for ages. We're stuck with them both, regardless.

And the OP's absolutely right - Farmer really doesn't get it. If he doesn't get it soon, where are Hibs going to be in five years time?

Well put Dodie, it would seem we are stuck with Rod and STF as you said , the trouble is they think they get it but but they don't as deep down they are not supporters in the true sense of the word. If we get beaten i bet the first thing Rod thinks is ffs another thousand off the crowd next week whereas others like myself take it to heart and let it spoil our weekend and beyond. I don't need anyone to tell me what constitutes a great chairman when his choice of managers cannot get a team to take a decent throw in or corner kick !, Sir Tom just take a look at the league table .

[The Falcon]

No they wouldnt. They would look at the market they are in and see that everybody else was incurring substantial losses. In most other businesses they would shut the doors.

If it was purely a business decision then ER and EM would be bulldozed and sold for housing as thats the only way anybody will make money out of the football club.

[RIP]

That's interesting. Petrie is to blame for the players fitness levels and discipline record. You clearly think he should interfere more with the football side of things. That's a unique, but challenging viewpoint.

Not only do I not want Petrie to interfere with the football side of things - I clearly think he should not. Your false interpretation of one of my 10 points whilst ignoring the rest is bizarre.

Surely you are not so blind as to see that, as the employer, only he can set the bar for acceptable behaviour and state what is unacceptable. The manager is a mere coach, does not pay the wages nor is he able to intefere with off-field discipline. That is the employer's sole responsibility and in that particular area, Petrie has spectaularly failed

Fitness is so linked to lifestyle it is almost joined at the hip. Hand in glove with dedication and application. All about employee attitude. At Hibs this has been a consitent problem that Mowbray tried to tackle, Collins failed to get support to tackle and none of the coaches that came after have been able to improve. It's been a consistent problem under Petrie's tenure


"Most managers resign". I thought they either went on to bigger jobs or, apart from John Collins, got sacked. Who else resigned?

As far as I can remember only Caldo of our last 5 managers was sacked. None left happy with Petrie

[Baldy Foghorn]

And by staying away they still expect that the club will manage to continue.

That is what irks me, when guys don't go to games, but slate everything about the club, and expect things to improve..... I dream of a day when we are sucessful, and play to a full house each week.....Will that ever happen?

[Baldy Foghorn]

The irony of Rod saying that its a results driven business wasn't lost on me as Sir Tom showered the praise of Rod...

:agree::agree:

[Hibbyradge]

As far as I can remember only Caldo of our last 5 managers was sacked. None left happy with Petrie

Mixu was sacked.

Yogi was sacked.

Calderwood was sacked.

Collins walked.

Mowbray got a £1m job at5 West Brom.

Williamson was "allowed to leave" (sacked).

Sauzee was sacked.

McLeish went to Rangers.

Duffy was sacked.

Miller was sacked.

[Cropley10]

Rod Petrie is no longer the Chief Exec of Hibernian Football Club, he's now just the chairman of the board. Why is it Rod Petrie is the only board member ever singled out for abuse? Why don't we ever target the incumbent Chief Exec?

Lindsay OUT!

[hibiedude]

And by staying away they still expect that the club will manage to continue.


When you go out shopping do you go with the intention of buying a poor product because over the last few years that’s been the only option available at the club.

The last 8 mangers couldn’t have all been poor but they all had one thing in common they were all approved by RP.

As said I’ll go back to Easter Road only when the product on offer is worth watching and whoever the new managers is he will get my support provided he get the club back on track.

[Kaiser1962]

When you go out shopping do you go with the intention of buying a poor product because over the last few years that’s been the only option available at the club.

Fair enough but if you stop going the shop closes.

The last 8 mangers couldn’t have all been poor but they all had one thing in common they were all approved by RP.

As said I’ll go back to Easter Road only when the product on offer is worth watching and whoever the new managers is he will get my support provided he get the club back on track.

How do you expect that the club survive?

At the AGM Brockie asked, perfectly legitimately, if STF would tolerate his tyre company employees producing the performances Hibs have (I paraphrase) and while STF did not directly answer the truth is he wouldnt. In reality the only saving grace from Farmers point of view is that it has not cost him more money. If £1m last season is not enough that is.

The truth is if Hibs were a tyre company Farmer would have closed it down years ago.

[Kaiser1962]

Lindsay OUT!

Get the banners ready :greengrin

[marinello59]

When you go out shopping do you go with the intention of buying a poor product because over the last few years that’s been the only option available at the club.

The last 8 mangers couldn’t have all been poor but they all had one thing in common they were all approved by RP.

As said I’ll go back to Easter Road only when the product on offer is worth watching and whoever the new managers is he will get my support provided he get the club back on track.

Slightly off topic but when did ''product'' become more important than our love for the club? Equating what you buy at a supermarket with what you buy in to with a season ticket doesn't really make sense to me. But maybe that's just because I am an old git.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Slightly off topic but when did ''product'' become more important than our love for the club? Equating what you buy at a supermarket with what you buy in to with a season ticket doesn't really make sense to me. But maybe that's just because I am an old git.

:agree: On all counts.

[hibiedude]

Fair enough but if you stop going the shop closes.


How do you expect that the club survive?

At the AGM Brockie asked, perfectly legitimately, if STF would tolerate his tyre company employees producing the performances Hibs have (I paraphrase) and while STF did not directly answer the truth is he wouldnt. In reality the only saving grace from Farmers point of view is that it has not cost him more money. If £1m last season is not enough that is.

The truth is if Hibs were a tyre company Farmer would have closed it down years ago.


Fair enough but if you stop going the shop closes.

Any shop that closes you’ll normally find its down to poor management

A lot of the fans have simply had enough with the rubbish on offer and they are finding something better to do with their saturdays and be honest you can't blame them.

The "club" need to sort this out and attract the fans back and that will only happen when things on the field improve.

[Kaiser1962]

Any shop that closes you’ll normally find its down to poor management

A lot of the fans have simply had enough with the rubbish on offer and they are finding something better to do with their saturdays and be honest you can't blame them.

The "club" need to sort this out and attract the fans back and that will only happen when things on the field improve.


Or competitors that have a much larger customer base and therefore capable of offering better quality produsct at a similar price.

I believe the phrase commonly used is "use it or lose it"

[Captain Trips]

I am wondering if what STF said about Petrie was just perhaps for the public, the guy is sensible he knows business, how can he really sing the praises of RP when it is clearly not as good and far from as good as it should be for now a considerable time.

STF cannot think it is alright to have the attendance levels as they have been and the amount of manager sackings without thinking what is going on here, they have worked together a long time so maybe it is difficult after RP did some good in the past.

[Kaiser1962]

I am wondering if what STF said about Petrie was just perhaps for the public, the guy is sensible he knows business, how can he really sing the praises of RP when it is clearly not as good and far from as good as it should be for now a considerable time.

STF cannot think it is alright to have the attendance levels as they have been and the amount of manager sackings without thinking what is going on here, they have worked together a long time so maybe it is difficult after RP did some good in the past.

I suspect that it is genuine Carlsberg.

STF is involved in an industry that is notorious for losing money. As I said on another thread since league restructuring in the late 90's only one club, of those that have been in the SPL for the last 12 seasons (for which figures are available), has made money and that's Hibs.


I believe the combined total for lossess, not including the HMRC cases against Rangers and Hearts, was around £190m.

[Captain Trips]

I suspect that it is genuine Carlsberg.

STF is involved in an industry that is notorious for losing money. As I said on another thread since league restructuring in the late 90's only one club, of those that have been in the SPL for the last 12 seasons (for which figures are available), has made money and that's Hibs.


I believe the combined total for lossess, not including the HMRC cases against Rangers and Hearts, was around £190m.

Yeah but I think we have reached that summit Kaiser and we are going down the other side, and yeah credit due for the going uphill but even if we are always going to lose money we could and should be losing less. I do not believe RP is doing as well in this job as the comments merit.

He has made key errors on big decisions that cost the club money yeah we can talk about hindsight but at the end of the day 3 managers hired were in error, it has caused attendances to fall, I do not think that is so worthy of the praise he received, hence why maybe behind scences it is different, Just like a manager being told doing great job then 2 weeks later sacked.

[Part/Time Supporter]

How do you work that one out? The general decline is the same for all teams in Scotland, Hibs position in Scottish football was rarely questioned during the fifties, sixties & seventies because they got better managers and players than the clubs rated below us. It would still be the same today, if we operated as effectively as in those era's, irrespective of the particular standard of the day.

You were pointing out that Hibs got good results in Europe in the 1960s, which they did. My point is that just about every Scottish club that qualified for Europe in that period also got good results. There has been a general decline. Hibs had a specific decline in the late 70s / early 80s but have relatively improved since then IMO.

[flash]

Well put Dodie, it would seem we are stuck with Rod and STF as you said , the trouble is they think they get it but but they don't as deep down they are not supporters in the true sense of the word. If we get beaten i bet the first thing Rod thinks is ffs another thousand off the crowd next week whereas others like myself take it to heart and let it spoil our weekend and beyond. I don't need anyone to tell me what constitutes a great chairman when his choice of managers cannot get a team to take a decent throw in or corner kick !, Sir Tom just take a look at the league table .

What a crap post. Every other club in Scotland would love to be "stuck with" Tom Farmer. I think we all agree that mistakes have been made in recruitment but, as stated elsewhere, they were mostly choices welcomed at the time.

The biggest mistake was not getting shot of CC in the summer and i am sure the Board regret this as much as anyone.

Incidentally who is the bigger supporter? Someone who saves a club from extinction and not many years later has them playing in a fantastic stadium with top notch training facilities or someone who turns their back on Hibs because they aren't happy with the "product" on offer?

Genuine question.

[flash]

When you go out shopping do you go with the intention of buying a poor product because over the last few years that’s been the only option available at the club.

The last 8 mangers couldn’t have all been poor but they all had one thing in common they were all approved by RP.

As said I’ll go back to Easter Road only when the product on offer is worth watching and whoever the new managers is he will get my support provided he get the club back on track.

Are you talking about supporting your team or buying tatties at a supermarket?

[hibiedude]

Are you talking about supporting your team or buying tatties at a supermarket?

The clue was in the post the words Easter Road and Managers was mentioned :confused:

And Hibs are a results driven business as it stands today we are one point of the bottom so clearly many are not attracted to the goods on offer

and thanks for reminding me we do need tatties fir tonights tea.

[johnrebus]

Sir Tom Farmer is one of the most successful and prominent Scottish business persons of the last generaton.

What surprises me is that with the state we are in - and have been for the last three or four years - he has not moved to change things at the top and relieve Petrie of his duties, long before now.

It is unthinkable that, with his experience and contacts - built up over nearly fifty years - that there will not be other talented people within his ken,who can do a better job in driving Hibernian forward.

We have a lot to thank Rod Petrie for, but quite frankly he is past his sell by date.

Time to try something else Rod.

:agree:

[greenlex]

Sir Tom Farmer is one of the most successful and prominent Scottish business persons of the last generaton.

What surprises me is that with the state we are in - and have been for the last three or four years - he has not moved to change things at the top and relieve Petrie of his duties, long before now.

It is unthinkable that, with his experience and contacts - built up over nearly fifty years - that there will not be other talented people within his ken,who can do a better job in driving Hibernian forward.

We have a lot to thank Rod Petrie for, but quite frankly he is past his sell by date.

Time to try something else Rod.

:agree:
It might just be we are not in the state we all think we are. There are peaks and troughs and we are most certainly in a trough but over the last twenty years the trend has been upwards. A few results on the ark would change things a lot.

[MB62]

The whole point of this thread is to try and highlight the difference between running a successful business e.g. a motor bike or car repair business, compared to running a football club.

It appears to me that STF doesn't know there is a difference, given the comment he made about Petrie making him an even more successful business man.

Between STF & Petrie, they sorted out our OFF FIELD financial problems, a job well done. They have put in a fantastic infrustructure for the future, but what makes the business tick over on a level financial footing now is what happens ON the park and this is where Rod has historically let us us down on a regular basis.
The football side of things has been a side issue for many years now, compared to the financial side and we now need people that understand the footballing side of things.
A big well done to STF and the ten Rod Petrie's for sorting out the finances and infrustructure. Now let's get people in place who will put a smile on our faces once again on a Saturday.

[Stevie Reid]

I'm not convinced that it's STF who 'doesn't get it'

Any look at who has finished 3rd-5th in the SPL year on year shows you that unless you're spending like the Yams, it's a lottery.

Hibs are unmatched in creating an environment for success. In recent years they've got the footballing side completely wrong and have admitted so and made changes to avoid making that mistake again.

STF is about as qualified as anyone to comment on what a board of directors should be doing to create a sustainable going concern.

The problem is, the product we sell don't work. We have sacked the production manager and are hiring his replacement whilst being able to afford someone who can create a quality product, thanks to having run the business well to this point.

If the directors demonstrate that they still can't spot a manager in what is again, largely a lottery, (beyond Geoff Brown, which SPL board keep getting their managerial appointments 'right'?) then we question who should be doing the hiring.

RP is certainly not blameless as we all know but his work at Hibernian is certainly not fully understood and absorbed by the fans either.

Excellent post.

[Kaiser1962]

Yeah but I think we have reached that summit Kaiser and we are going down the other side, and yeah credit due for the going uphill but even if we are always going to lose money we could and should be losing less. I do not believe RP is doing as well in this job as the comments merit.

We probably have and I think Scottish Football will need to totally restructure to survive at all. I think it's that serious.

[--------]

Slightly off topic but when did ''product'' become more important than our love for the club?

Equating what you buy at a supermarket with what you buy in to with a season ticket doesn't really make sense to me.

But maybe that's just because I am an old git.


Nor to me.

But it appears that this is how Farmer and Petrie view things - football as just another marketplace.



And when Farmer said that we couldn't possibly have a better chairman than Petrie ...

Let's just say I resent anyone assuming that my head buttons up the back.

[LeithBoozy]

Nor to me.

But it appears that this is how Farmer and Petrie view things - football as just another marketplace.



And when Farmer said that we couldn't possibly have a better chairman than Petrie ...

Let's just say I resent anyone assuming that my head buttons up the back. If Rod Petrie viewed football as just another market place, he would not have given up taking his substantial salary out of the club I would suggest ?

[Jones28]

Hibs are a football club first business second.

In business, without the means to facilitate it, you will not have success.

Petrie and Farmer have built the groundwork for Hibs to be the established third force in Scottish football, rivalling set-ups found at the Old Firm and most clubs in the Premiership and Championship in England.

During the time they have been doing this Hibs have also had relative success. 1 League cup win, 2 League cup finals and numerous semi-finals plus European qualification.

Now that the final touches have been added to the stadium there is no more big investments hanging over Hibernian heads and focus can finally be paid to putting a winning team with an established coaching and backroom team.

Hibs have a bigger fanbase than other teams and once the actual football comes back and Hibs climb the table the crowds will come back.

IMO its as though Hibs fans are taking all that for granted, Hibs have been re-born under farmer and in 20 years time Hibs will be going strong because of his generosity and his partnership with Petrie

[EasterRoad4Ever]

Sir Tom Farmer is one of the most successful and prominent Scottish business persons of the last generaton.

What surprises me is that with the state we are in - and have been for the last three or four years - he has not moved to change things at the top and relieve Petrie of his duties, long before now.

It is unthinkable that, with his experience and contacts - built up over nearly fifty years - that there will not be other talented people within his ken,who can do a better job in driving Hibernian forward.

We have a lot to thank Rod Petrie for, but quite frankly he is past his sell by date.

Time to try something else Rod.

:agree:

When the owner of the business has to step in to lend moral support and talk up your past record, you know your on your way out. The disappointing thing is that Petrie hasn't offered his resignation or just gone - the man has no self respect or respect for the Hibs fans.

[Kaiser1962]

Nor to me.

But it appears that this is how Farmer and Petrie view things - football as just another marketplace.


If they did Doddie they would shut the doors and move on. Farmer would not tolerate those sort of returns in any of his other ventures.

[MB62]

Hibs are a football club first business second.

In business, without the means to facilitate it, you will not have success.

Petrie and Farmer have built the groundwork for Hibs to be the established third force in Scottish football, rivalling set-ups found at the Old Firm and most clubs in the Premiership and Championship in England.

During the time they have been doing this Hibs have also had relative success. 1 League cup win, 2 League cup finals and numerous semi-finals plus European qualification.

Now that the final touches have been added to the stadium there is no more big investments hanging over Hibernian heads and focus can finally be paid to putting a winning team with an established coaching and backroom team.

Hibs have a bigger fanbase than other teams and once the actual football comes back and Hibs climb the table the crowds will come back.

IMO its as though Hibs fans are taking all that for granted, Hibs have been re-born under farmer and in 20 years time Hibs will be going strong because of his generosity and his partnership with Petrie

In 20 years time, I will have been supporting Hibs for 70 years. Most of the time up to now has been mediocre to poor, barring a few years here & there, Turnbull's Tornadoes, 18 month with McLeish, about the same with Mowbray and about half that with J.C.
If you are saying that I have to suffer another 20 years of mediocrity before we really start looking like a big club within Scotland, I don't think I will survive that long, either the ticker will give up or I will be in an asylum somewhere.
However, given the state of Scottish football at the moment and in particular the club that should be our nearest challengers as 'best of the rest' there is absolutely no reason why, given the right manager and proper support, we can't be easily the 3rd force NOW.

[down the slope]

Farmer gave his backing to a man who a few months ago was crowing about CC being the way forward and all the other p... that he spouted at the time and now he is the best chairman we have ever had, bollocks. How he got off the hook with that one i will never know , it's amazing what you get away with when you are unelected and unaccountable .

[Saorsa]

Farmer gave his backing to a man who a few months ago was crowing about CC being the way forward and all the other p... that he spouted at the time and now he is the best chairman we have ever had, bollocks. How he got off the hook with that one i will never know , it's amazing what you get away with when you are unelected and unaccountable .Teflon Petrie :agree:

[Sergio sledge]

The whole point of this thread is to try and highlight the difference between running a successful business e.g. a motor bike or car repair business, compared to running a football club.

It appears to me that STF doesn't know there is a difference, given the comment he made about Petrie making him an even more successful business man.

Between STF & Petrie, they sorted out our OFF FIELD financial problems, a job well done. They have put in a fantastic infrustructure for the future, but what makes the business tick over on a level financial footing now is what happens ON the park and this is where Rod has historically let us us down on a regular basis.
The football side of things has been a side issue for many years now, compared to the financial side and we now need people that understand the footballing side of things.
A big well done to STF and the ten Rod Petrie's for sorting out the finances and infrustructure. Now let's get people in place who will put a smile on our faces once again on a Saturday.

Realistically (and this is a genuine question) what more could have been done on the football side of things over the last few years?

IMHO, the board have given good backing to all the managers, increasing the budget year on year despite falling attendances and turnover. Also, as other threads have established, the majority of the managerial appointments were acceptable to the majority of fans at the time. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing, but who could have predicted Hughes, Mixu and Calderwood would be so spectacularly bad that they'd be "mutual consented" within 18 months each. All of their records had success in them at different levels and for different reasons, but they were successful.

[MB62]

Realistically (and this is a genuine question) what more could have been done on the football side of things over the last few years?
IMHO, the board have given good backing to all the managers, increasing the budget year on year despite falling attendances and turnover. Also, as other threads have established, the majority of the managerial appointments were acceptable to the majority of fans at the time. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing, but who could have predicted Hughes, Mixu and Calderwood would be so spectacularly bad that they'd be "mutual consented" within 18 months each. All of their records had success in them at different levels and for different reasons, but they were successful.

We will probably never know for sure what the answer to that question actually is, only the managers that have walked or been pushed would be able to answer that. My own guess would be that, whilst the board allowed the respective managers to sign plenty players, because of wage structure, the choice of players available was of poorer quality. In saying that though, we must shirley have been able to match & better the like of Motherwell, Killie, Dundee Utd etc, so that means that the managers have been spectacularly unlucky when it comes to signing the better players because they have simply not been available at the time, or their managerial skills e.g. tactics and getting the best of out an individual has been lacking, I would suggest there's a bit of both involved but more heavily weighted towards the latter.
Your point regarding most managers being acceptable is valid but again, it is because I think we have all just accepted that over the years, we limit ourselves greatly in choice because of the salary on offer. We have all heard the story of why Stevie Clarke apparently walked away and if this true, is probably why it took C.C. so long to appoint an assistant, and one probably not of his choosing.
We all want to be thought of as a big club in Scotland, and we should be, sometimes though we certainly don't act that way at board level.

[alexedwards]

Is the argument not then that we need say a Director of Football to work with the Board as opposed to replacing the chairman with a 'football' man but who may not have the same commercial expertise?

All Premier football clubs require a Director of Football in the modern era as the link betwen football department and board.
The Manager simply has too much to do and can't be found sitting with non-football thinking directors to explain his position.
For the director of football role it requires qualities of football and administrative experience - hardly rocket science.
Problems arise when non-football thinking directors start making football decisions without consulting.

[--------]

Farmer gave his backing to a man who a few months ago was crowing about CC being the way forward and all the other p... that he spouted at the time and now he is the best chairman we have ever had, bollocks. How he got off the hook with that one i will never know , it's amazing what you get away with when you are unelected and unaccountable .


And the Big Boss apparently has your back regardless of performance....

[HibsMax]

Farmer gave his backing to a man who a few months ago was crowing about CC being the way forward and all the other p... that he spouted at the time and now he is the best chairman we have ever had, bollocks. How he got off the hook with that one i will never know , it's amazing what you get away with when you are unelected and unaccountable .

By him out then. :wink: It's not a democracy.

[son of haggart]

Sir Tom Farmer is one of the most successful and prominent Scottish business persons of the last generaton.

What surprises me is that with the state we are in - and have been for the last three or four years - he has not moved to change things at the top and relieve Petrie of his duties, long before now.

It is unthinkable that, with his experience and contacts - built up over nearly fifty years - that there will not be other talented people within his ken,who can do a better job in driving Hibernian forward.
We have a lot to thank Rod Petrie for, but quite frankly he is past his sell by date.

Time to try something else Rod.

:agree:



While I agree with much of this thread and the rest of your post, I am not sure the bold bit is true. Farmer built Kwik Fit up and as far as I am aware held very strongly on to the reins of control. My experience with business people who have built their own empire is that they micro manage and don't delegate responsibility for decision making at a CEO or MD level well. Farmer may not have a wide range of people who have worked for him who have the skill set to lead a business themselves. The people I have met who run big businesses as sole owners tend to surround themselves with people who do as they are told.

[Baker9]

I always hear this 'underacheived under Petrie' line trotted out.

With the exception of the 50s and early 70s can you point to a time, post war, Hibs have regularly won trophies, leagues and competed for honours consistently.

Some fans seem to be dreaming of several golden eras that never really existed! A national trophy, 3 European qualifications and another 2 finals as well as numerous semi finals seems an ok return on the park and compares favourably to almost any period apart from the 2 I mentioned.

I remember the 50s and the 70s and every decade since and the excitment of watching really competitive Hibs teams. My life is in a very good place right now but I have never been so miserable and depressed about everything Hibs as I have been over the last few years. It has been a shambles.

[clerriehibs]

Farmer gave his backing to a man who a few months ago was crowing about CC being the way forward and all the other p... that he spouted at the time and now he is the best chairman we have ever had, bollocks. How he got off the hook with that one i will never know , it's amazing what you get away with when you are unelected and unaccountable .

Hibs are a private company. Farmer holds the great majority of the shares, he doesn't need to be elected, nor does he need to be accountable to anyone bar himself. Personally, that's how I like it. Every team outside of the old firm is generally *****, with brief periods of glory. We're no different - it'll be fantastic if we did become perennial challengers to the old firm, competing in the Champions League, leaving the other SPL teams in our wake ... sounds like we need someone like roamnov .... oh, wait ...

Gleen Gibbons article here sets it out clearly ... http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/european/glenn_gibbons_petrie_has_proved_his_worth_as_chair man_1_1962589

[new malkyhib]

Hibs are a private company. Farmer holds the great majority of the shares, he doesn't need to be elected, nor does he need to be accountable to anyone bar himself. Personally, that's how I like it. Every team outside of the old firm is generally *****, with brief periods of glory. We're no different - it'll be fantastic if we did become perennial challengers to the old firm, competing in the Champions League, leaving the other SPL teams in our wake ... sounds like we need someone like roamnov .... oh, wait ...Gleen Gibbons article here sets it out clearly ... http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/european/glenn_gibbons_petrie_has_proved_his_worth_as_chair man_1_1962589 The article sets out clearly Gibbons' disain for anyone who dares to criticise Farmer and by extension Teflon Rod. Gibbons has previous in this as well - he wrote similar paeans to Farmer during the Hands on Hibs days.I notice he heralded Farmer's "speech" at the AGM delivered from the back of the hall. Why was our major shareholder not at the front of the room leading the meeting?

[jdships]

The article sets out clearly Gibbons' disain for anyone who dares to criticise Farmer and by extension Teflon Rod. Gibbons has previous in this as well - he wrote similar paeans to Farmer during the Hands on Hibs days.I notice he heralded Farmer's "speech" at the AGM delivered from the back of the hall. Why was our major shareholder not at the front of the room leading the meeting?


Meetings be they board/Agm are chaired by the CHAIRMAN who is appointed by the BOARD.
Regardless who/what the company/person is the major shareholder never sits at the " front of the room " unless invited or has been elected to the Board .
" The floor" at an AGM is where the shareholders big or small sit .
If you ever get the chance to meet STF " grab it" and you will find a different man than the one you are describing
I have known him from the days he started in business with his father and have the greatest admiration for him both as a person , Hibs supporter and a business man

:flag:

[StevieC]

What surprises me is that with the state we are in - and have been for the last three or four years - he has not moved to change things at the top and relieve Petrie of his duties, long before now.


Maybe because "the state we are in" relates to onfield performances and results.

If a business puts everything in place and provides the opportunity for an employee to be successful and that employee subsequently fails .. who is at fault

How many of us would have thought that O'Connor, Riordan, Stokes and Sproule were players that would have signed, based on our wage structure? Not many I'm guessing, and yet the board managed to do what they could to get them on board.

[Bostonhibby]

In 20 years time, I will have been supporting Hibs for 70 years. Most of the time up to now has been mediocre to poor, barring a few years here & there, Turnbull's Tornadoes, 18 month with McLeish, about the same with Mowbray and about half that with J.C.
If you are saying that I have to suffer another 20 years of mediocrity before we really start looking like a big club within Scotland, I don't think I will survive that long, either the ticker will give up or I will be in an asylum somewhere.
However, given the state of Scottish football at the moment and in particular the club that should be our nearest challengers as 'best of the rest' there is absolutely no reason why, given the right manager and proper support, we can't be easily the 3rd force NOW.

Wow! :agree: Are you me?,:greengrin I recognise myself in all of this! Depressing but I knew what I was getting into - it's affected my family for generations.

I am going to set up a Helpline - Hibees anonymous. We can get together in Rooms and confess all

[fatbloke]

When the owner of the business has to step in to lend moral support and talk up your past record, you know your on your way out. The disappointing thing is that Petrie hasn't offered his resignation or just gone - the man has no self respect or respect for the Hibs fans.

What a load o Tom Kite:rolleyes:

[fatbloke]

Wow! :agree: Are you me?,:greengrin I recognise myself in all of this! Depressing but I knew what I was getting into - it's affected my family for generations.

I am going to set up a Helpline - Hibees anonymous. We can get together in Rooms and confess all

Where do I sign up:greengrin

[The Falcon]

By him out then. :wink: It's not a democracy.


Brutally accurate my friend. :agree:

[Baldy Foghorn]

Hibs are a private company. Farmer holds the great majority of the shares, he doesn't need to be elected, nor does he need to be accountable to anyone bar himself. Personally, that's how I like it. Every team outside of the old firm is generally *****, with brief periods of glory. We're no different - it'll be fantastic if we did become perennial challengers to the old firm, competing in the Champions League, leaving the other SPL teams in our wake ... sounds like we need someone like roamnov .... oh, wait ...

Gleen Gibbons article here sets it out clearly ... http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/european/glenn_gibbons_petrie_has_proved_his_worth_as_chair man_1_1962589

Gibbons view is particularily one sided, and if truth be told pretty condescending towards "ill informed mouthpieces" as he puts it......I think he is another guy who never writes anything bad about Hibs, along with David Hardie, who don't like rocking the boat, and in my mind not taking their profession seriously....

FWIW the "mouthpieces", had various concerns that were voiced in a constructive manner, whatever happened to freedom of speech?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Anybody who thinks STF is off the pace here is deluded.

Anybody who can set himself up as owner of a countries 4th / 5th biggest football club and go through a 20 year period with 2 wins in the countries 3rd biggest competition as the total return for his tenure, and yet still be almost immune from criticism, is a genius as far as I can see.

As an example have a look at Newcastle. Huge crowds, fanatical support and a great infrastructure. But in reality a club who have won nothing for years and in football terms have no right to expect success. Does their owner get a free ride? no chance. Because despite evidence to the contrary their fans are not willing to sit back and say that medriocrity on the park is acceptable, no matter how pretty the stadium looks or how good the training facilities are.

There have been a number of posters on this thread making a good argument to show how given our actual success rate ( or lack of it ) since the 50s we should take a realistic approach and not expect much more than we have had over the last few decades.

If that really is the case then whats the bloody point. As far as I am concerned pressure on the board ( and the owner ) to bring success to this club on the park should be massive and never ending.

The whole point of a football club is to win silverware. In order to achieve that things must be well looked after off the pitch and there can be no doubt that the Tache and STF have done as good a job as anybody in British football. But there seems to be a culture in the boardroom that a good balance sheet is the true measure of success and that failure on the park can be, perhaps not ignored, but at least lived with.

This was always going to be the big question for Rod Petrie and STF. Yes you are great business men. But can you make a football club do what it is supposed to do on the pitch ?

For the last 3 years the answer has been a resounding no.

Over to you guys !

[Peevemor]

Anybody who thinks STF is off the pace here is deluded.

Anybody who can set himself up as owner of a countries 4th / 5th biggest football club and go through a 20 year period with 2 wins in the countries 3rd biggest competition as the total return for his tenure, and yet still be almost immune from criticism, is a genius as far as I can see.

In the same 20 year period, how many teams outwith the ugly sisters have done better? Hearts! - but at what cost?


As an example have a look at Newcastle. Huge crowds, fanatical support and a great infrastructure. But in reality a club who have won nothing for years and in football terms have no right to expect success. Does their owner get a free ride? no chance. Because despite evidence to the contrary their fans are not willing to sit back and say that medriocrity on the park is acceptable, no matter how pretty the stadium looks or how good the training facilities are.

How can you take Newcastle as an example? They're not competing against clubs with attendances 4 times bigger than theirs. They also get millions in TV money that we don't, the result being that their player budget is far closer to the Premiership big guns than ours is to rantic.



There have been a number of posters on this thread making a good argument to show how given our actual success rate ( or lack of it ) since the 50s we should take a realistic approach and not expect much more than we have had over the last few decades.

If that really is the case then whats the bloody point. As far as I am concerned pressure on the board ( and the owner ) to bring success to this club on the park should be massive and never ending.

The whole point of a football club is to win silverware. In order to achieve that things must be well looked after off the pitch and there can be no doubt that the Tache and STF have done as good a job as anybody in British football. But there seems to be a culture in the boardroom that a good balance sheet is the true measure of success and that failure on the park can be, perhaps not ignored, but at least lived with.

This was always going to be the big question for Rod Petrie and STF. Yes you are great business men. But can you make a football club do what it is supposed to do on the pitch ?

For the last 3 years the answer has been a resounding no.

Over to you guys !

We'll have to wait and see what the next manager comes up with.

[Bostonhibby]

While I agree with much of this thread and the rest of your post, I am not sure the bold bit is true. Farmer built Kwik Fit up and as far as I am aware held very strongly on to the reins of control. My experience with business people who have built their own empire is that they micro manage and don't delegate responsibility for decision making at a CEO or MD level well. Farmer may not have a wide range of people who have worked for him who have the skill set to lead a business themselves. The people I have met who run big businesses as sole owners tend to surround themselves with people who do as they are told.

:agree: They tend to behave like Lithuanian Megalomaniacs.

[NAE NOOKIE]

[QUOTE=Peevemor;2986804]
How can you take Newcastle as an example? They're not competing against clubs with attendances 4 times bigger than theirs. They also get millions in TV money that we don't, the result being that their player budget is far closer to the Premiership big guns than ours is to rantic.


NUFC are a pretty good eample IMO in the context of what I was trying to say:

Like for like in the EPL they have a reasonable case to consider themselves as one of the top 5 or 6 clubs in England given the support they enjoy ( like Hibs )

In spite of this they have enjoyed a total lack of success ( apart from a Fairs Cup win ) and been relegated more than once since the 50s ( like Hibs apart from our 3 LCs )

I would doubt if their transfer budget since the EPL was formed is anywhere near half of what Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool and now Man City have spent. Though I would agree that the OF spend 10 times what we do.

The point is though, that I dont feel its acceptable to shrug our shoulders and take it when we are not doing as well as we could be. We in crowd terms are a reasonably sized fish in quite a small pond and on that basis our performance has been pretty poor. The fact is that its not all the fault of the OF either. I have seen Hibs lose cup semi finals to Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Ayr Utd, The Yams and Dunfermline. Not to mention Final losses to Livingston and Aberdeen.

Since my first Hibs match in the mid 70s Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, The Yams and St Mirren have all won the scottish Cup. 3 of these clubs more than once. In that time we ( the alleged 4th / 5th biggest club ) have made the final twice.

When you consider you only need to win 5 games in a row to win the damned thing ( and at least two of those games against teams you should beat easily on paper ) its a pretty poor effort.

Having said that .... I'm convinced we will win it this year :greengrin

H

[Eyrie]

To add to what Bovril's posted, I had a look in the summer at what Hibs have done since season 69/70. Our average league position was sixth and for both cups the average is the last sixteen. Not even the quarter finals :brickwall

[NAE NOOKIE]

To add to what Bovril's posted, I had a look in the summer at what Hibs have done since season 69/70. Our average league position was sixth and for both cups the average is the last sixteen. Not even the quarter finals :brickwall

Yikes !!!