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Hibbyradge
08-11-2011, 11:51 PM
The board, and RP in particular, get the blame for poor managerial appointments.

However, I have to admit, that apart from Tony Mowbray, I, and the majority of Hibs fans, wwere delighted with them all.

Even the ultra critical TQM is quoted as saying that "CC is the man".

Hindsight is a gift that fans without real responsibility for their club have. CEO's don't have such luxury.

So, if you had been in RP's position, which manager(s) would you not have appointed AT THE TIME.

SteveHFC
08-11-2011, 11:54 PM
Mixu :agree:

Bad Martini
09-11-2011, 12:48 AM
The board, and RP in particular, get the blame for poor managerial appointments.

However, I have to admit, that apart from Tony Mowbray, I, and the majority of Hibs fans, wwere delighted with them all.

Even the ultra critical TQM is quoted as saying that "CC is the man".

Hindsight is a gift that fans without real responsibility for their club have. CEO's don't have such luxury.

So, if you had been in RP's position, which manager(s) would you not have appointed AT THE TIME.

Posts will be here to back it up. We shouldnt have gone for Calderwood and I recall saying this.

I also dont think we should have gone for Yogi, and said that too.

I dont recall being delighted with Mixu though respected him for his work up til then.

I was for Collins, if that helps :greengrin (still am....the only manager, from the last crop, to WIN anything). :aok:

GGTTH

smurf
09-11-2011, 12:49 AM
Didn't want CC. But probably every other I did...

blackpoolhibs
09-11-2011, 01:12 AM
Never really been against any manager when they have been appointed, some have not got the juices flowing like blobby, others have like Collins.

Baldy Foghorn
09-11-2011, 01:22 AM
The board, and RP in particular, get the blame for poor managerial appointments.

However, I have to admit, that apart from Tony Mowbray, I, and the majority of Hibs fans, wwere delighted with them all.

Even the ultra critical TQM is quoted as saying that "CC is the man".

Hindsight is a gift that fans without real responsibility for their club have. CEO's don't have such luxury.

So, if you had been in RP's position, which manager(s) would you not have appointed AT THE TIME.

I did not want Williamson or Hughes at the time of their appointments

iwasthere1972
09-11-2011, 01:23 AM
Colin Calderwood. The announcement did nothing for me. It was downhill all the way from day 1.

blackpoolhibs
09-11-2011, 01:25 AM
I did not want Williamson or Hughes at the time of their appointments

:confused: Thats the first i have heard of that, you kept that quiet? :greengrin

Baldy Foghorn
09-11-2011, 01:26 AM
:confused: Thats the first i have heard of that, you kept that quiet? :greengrin

Lol, I am too reserved for my own good:wink:

McHibby
09-11-2011, 02:23 AM
There's none that I really didn't want in recent times. But I was either underwhelmed or slightly disappointed by everyone except Mixu and Calderwood (shows what I know!!).

I just remember thinking, "WHO"??? after Mowbray got the job, I couldn't remember him as a player, but soon came to <3 him :greengrin Gutted when he left.

Collins, I was a bit sceptical about (and if I remember rightly I am sure I wanted Hughes at this time). But despite not being great at picking out a player, the guy had us super fit, tried to change the culture at Easter Road and won us the league cup. Still disappointed that he felt he had to leave, I wish we could have known what really went on behind the scenes. Seems like a true gent.

Mixu I was happy about, even if it just because we could sing, "Mixu Paatelainen, what a f****** signing". Great guy, just a pity it didn't work out.

By this point I'd had it up the back teeth of ex-Hibbies and wasn't keen on us going down that road again. But Hughes, for all his faults, is still a Hibby and it's not for the want of trying he failed. He definitely had to go, though. Although now he is beginning to grind my gears by going on about Hibs so much in the media.

With Calderwood, I was genuinely excited. Not least, because it turned out it wasn't Jimmy. He really talked the talk, and I was glad that we hadn't just gone for one of the usual SPL 'merry-go-round' managers. I thought at the time it was an ambitious move and had high hopes for us. The club did the right thing sacking him, I agree that we can't keep changing manager every 12 months, but that doesn't mean we should keep a poor one for the sake of consistency. The board made a mistake by not letting him go in the summer, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

CmoantheHibs
09-11-2011, 05:15 AM
I didnt want Williamson or Hughes.The others I was happy with.I did have a good feeling about Mowbray but then again I had the same feeling about CC:greengrin.I thought(and still do)that JC was the man to completly turn our fortunes around.

Lucius Apuleius
09-11-2011, 05:54 AM
Only one I actively did not want was Yogi. Was delighted with Collins. Happy with Mixu. Neutral regarding Mowbray and CC.

ChilliEater
09-11-2011, 06:25 AM
Miller - underwhelmed
Jocky Scott - remember shaking my head a lot and muttering "Oh my God"
Jim Duffy - really excited, the media had conned me into believing he was the BYMITG (best young manager in the game)
McLeish - pissed off, seriously pissed off. I thought he was useless and had destroyed a decent Motherwell team.
Sauzee - the most excited I'd ever been at a Hibs appointment, player or manager. Thought we would soar to unparrallelled success.
Williamson - thought he was a good choice.
Mowbray - living in Suffolk at the time I knew how highly regarded he was at Ipswich, so was fairly excited.
Collins - a little concerned at his lack of experience, but confident he would do a good job.
Mixu - I had high hopes. Seemed to be a succesful young manager on the way up with a genuine love for Hibs.
Yogi - see Mixu, only with more experience.
CC - a little underwhelmed - Steve Clarke had caught my imagination - but thought he ticked all the boxes.

hibbill2002
09-11-2011, 07:11 AM
Jim Jefferies

Beefster
09-11-2011, 07:40 AM
The board, and RP in particular, get the blame for poor managerial appointments.

However, I have to admit, that apart from Tony Mowbray, I, and the majority of Hibs fans, wwere delighted with them all.

Even the ultra critical TQM is quoted as saying that "CC is the man".

Hindsight is a gift that fans without real responsibility for their club have. CEO's don't have such luxury.

So, if you had been in RP's position, which manager(s) would you not have appointed AT THE TIME.

Can't remember how I felt about Duff Jim.

Was delighted with McLeish.

Was over the moon about Sauzee.

Was unhappy with Fat Boab.

Was confused with Mowbray (i had been assured by an ex-chairman's relative that it was going to be Brehme) but, after I heard him speak on the day of his appointment, I was very optimistic.

Was unsure about Collins but happier once I heard him talk about his philosophy.

Didn't want Mixu.

Didn't want Hughes.

Was happy enough with Calderwood, after getting over the disappointment if it not being Clarke.

Think O'Neill, if appointed, may turn out to be a big mistake.

CallumLaidlaw
09-11-2011, 07:46 AM
Didn't have a clue who Mowbray was apart from an ex player but was a bit disappointed that he had no managerial experience.

Was pleased with Collins (Mowbray made me realise experience wasn't a necessity)

Was happy enough with Mixu.

Did not want Hughes although my dad did.

Was disappointed we didn't get Steve Clark, but when I looked at Calderwoods record I was happy enough with him.

Captain Trips
09-11-2011, 08:52 AM
I would have hired Mixu but I do not know who else was available same with Yogi, I would not have hired CC I believe

Oranje39
09-11-2011, 09:37 AM
Didn't want Hughes or Calderwood.

Was happy with Mixu at the time.

Still wish that John Collins was backed by the board and not the 'players'.

calumb
09-11-2011, 10:15 AM
The board, and RP in particular, get the blame for poor managerial appointments.

However, I have to admit, that apart from Tony Mowbray, I, and the majority of Hibs fans, wwere delighted with them all.

Even the ultra critical TQM is quoted as saying that "CC is the man".

Hindsight is a gift that fans without real responsibility for their club have. CEO's don't have such luxury.

So, if you had been in RP's position, which manager(s) would you not have appointed AT THE TIME.

Aye it seems a thankless task picking a manager for Hibs. The only time i have questioned a manager appointment in my lifetime of watching Hibs from Stanton onwards was that of Mowbray, the others i might not have thought they were the best candidate but i could at least see the argument for giving them the job.

I thought CC was a cracking appointment, been in the game years, thought he would have a load of contacts etc but i was worried the first time i heard him speak as i thought he came off a bit simple and when i heard the hibstv interview after he had been in job about a month when he referred one of our young players who was heading of to a Scotland u-19 camp as " David whats his name, dont tell me i'll get this" then i kinda knew he either was simple or not fully up to date with what was going on at the club.

Hibbyradge
09-11-2011, 10:24 AM
When we have a vacancy for manager, this board is full of polls about who the fans would want and who should be avoided like the plague.

It would be folly for the board to ignore such sentiments and pick a candidate who would be unpopular and divisive e.g. Jim Jefferies this time.

So, when the board make a popular choice, most fans are initially reasonably content, if not delighted.

However, when the appointment goes sour, the board get heavily criticised for simply pandering to the fans in order to "put bums on seats".

Crazy.

Beefster
09-11-2011, 10:27 AM
When we have a vacancy for manager, this board is full of polls about who the fans would want and who should be avoided like the plague.

It would be folly for the board to ignore such sentiments and pick a candidate who would be unpopular and divisive e.g. Jim Jefferies this time.

So, when the board make a popular choice, most fans are initially reasonably content, if not delighted.

However, when the appointment goes sour, the board get heavily criticised for simply pandering to the fans in order to "put bums on seats".

Crazy.

Disagree entirely. We need a Board that does the best thing for the club, even if that is Jumbo, rather than pander to the fans. As folk have said, if an unpopular appointment gets results then folk would be pretty daft to keep complaining about him.

Captain Trips
09-11-2011, 10:33 AM
When we have a vacancy for manager, this board is full of polls about who the fans would want and who should be avoided like the plague.

It would be folly for the board to ignore such sentiments and pick a candidate who would be unpopular and divisive e.g. Jim Jefferies this time.

So, when the board make a popular choice, most fans are initially reasonably content, if not delighted.

However, when the appointment goes sour, the board get heavily criticised for simply pandering to the fans in order to "put bums on seats".

Crazy.


Yes and unlike them I would have expected the sack by now if I had appointed these managers too. I do not know if I would have hired Yogi and defo not CC but if I picked them on a poll along with Mixu then I have as bad judgement as them and would expect sack.

Hibbyradge
09-11-2011, 10:45 AM
Disagree entirely. We need a Board that does the best thing for the club, even if that is Jumbo, rather than pander to the fans. As folk have said, if an unpopular appointment gets results then folk would be pretty daft to keep complaining about him.

I understand your point and in theory, it has merit. I'm not advocating that we appoint someone just because the fans like him, but I am saying that unless he's a miracle worker, we should steer clear of anathemas.

However, you have to consider what level of success an unpopular choice would have to achieve before he was "accepted/tolerated".

We're fighting relegation.

If Jefferies (for example) came in and steadied the ship would that be enough to bring back the fans? I doubt it.

If he had us challenging for the top 6, would folk warm to him?

Yogi got us 4th in the league and his popularity dropped like a stone.

So, an unpopular choice would immediately disenfranchise a percentage of fans. Crowds would drop further.

To get things back to where we would want them, we wold need to be playing good football, winning games and challenging in the top 3, imo.

The chances of that happening anytime soon are extremely remote so an unpopular manager would be up against it from the word go.

Hibbyradge
09-11-2011, 10:46 AM
Yes and unlike them I would have expected the sack by now if I had appointed these managers too. I do not know if I would have hired Yogi and defo not CC but if I picked them on a poll along with Mixu then I have as bad judgement as them and would expect sack.

How can you sack the owner? :dunno:

Captain Trips
09-11-2011, 10:53 AM
How can you sack the owner? :dunno:

I never said sack owner sack people involved in his choice, are RP and co not able to be sacked?

Spike Mandela
09-11-2011, 10:59 AM
Irrespective of our opinions and bias towards certain managers prior to appointment I think we all deepdown want them to go on and turn out to be the next Alex Ferguson.

CC was the only one in recent years who on initial unveiling where I thought 'Oh Oh' but that was based on his remarkably poor communication skills and not his prior track record.

I think all managers selected for interview will have a decent enough track record in one area or another be it results, trophies or youth development but as the only one I have met is O'Neill I think people would be surprised by his ability to put his point across and may find him inspiring enough, in the way Mowbray was, to get them back along to ER.

calumb
09-11-2011, 11:15 AM
Disagree entirely. We need a Board that does the best thing for the club, even if that is Jumbo, rather than pander to the fans. As folk have said, if an unpopular appointment gets results then folk would be pretty daft to keep complaining about him.

Agree totally. How long will the appointment of any manager put bums on seats. If you take Mixu for example, this was a man that nearly all fans wanted but by the end of his last season and paticuarly the two 0-0 draws with the old firm in the last week when we were setup to just defend the goals, it was clear that people were not going to pay to watch this turgid type football.

I think the board this time round will be more focussed than before on getting the right man in to do the job rather than the guy that initially pleases the fans.

We do have a talented group of players at the club but it appears that discipline and application to there jobs is whats holding the club back and if someone like jumbo is the man who gets them out of the pub and back on the training field then results will surely follow and then bums will come back to there seats.

Hibbyradge
09-11-2011, 11:16 AM
I never said sack owner sack people involved in his choice, are RP and co not able to be sacked?

RP owns 10% of the club, iirc.

Captain Trips
09-11-2011, 11:22 AM
RP owns 10% of the club, iirc.

I was talking from my standpoint if I hired all these folk I would expect to suffer by now, RP should resign along with the others, the track record is now a joke. He would get more out his 10% if somebody was doing his job better.

erin go bragh
09-11-2011, 11:23 AM
Heart sank when cc was appointed [ hoped i was wrong but not ]

Still think Sauzee would have been a success if he had been a player manager for his first season in charge .


ggtth

Cabbage East
09-11-2011, 11:34 AM
Didn't want Williamson, Yogi or Mixu to a lesser extent. Didn't have an opinion either way about CC or Mogga. Was happy with Franck & JC.

Captain Trips
09-11-2011, 11:40 AM
We do not all know whom was available at each appointment and although some may have been happy with say Mixu like I was at time I can only say yes or no on appointment, if I knew who was fully available I may not have hired him but I was happy we did without knowledge of all other candidates.

basehibby
09-11-2011, 12:12 PM
The board, and RP in particular, get the blame for poor managerial appointments.

However, I have to admit, that apart from Tony Mowbray, I, and the majority of Hibs fans, wwere delighted with them all.

Even the ultra critical TQM is quoted as saying that "CC is the man".

Hindsight is a gift that fans without real responsibility for their club have. CEO's don't have such luxury.

So, if you had been in RP's position, which manager(s) would you not have appointed AT THE TIME.

I wouldn't have appointed CC - but then again I wouldn't have picked Mowbray either :blushie:

Franck is God
09-11-2011, 12:34 PM
Miller was just appointed manager when I started going regularly and was there far too long.

Jocky Scott was a poor appointment and in hindsight so was Duffy.

I was very pleased with the McLeish appointment.

Happy but hesitant that Franck got it as at the time I don't think he had any coaching experience never mind managing, perhaps if he had been asked to be interim player/coach and look after things while they searched for a new manager it might have turned out a lot better.

Williamson - was a neccessity based on the club finances and to be fair did remarkably well given the task he was given.

Mowbray - was unsure until I heard his first interview and saw his first game in charge then I was completely sold.

Collins - Again hesitant at the appointment because of his lack of experience but after I saw the performance against Hearts in the LC was completely sold on how he wanted us to play, wish he was still at ER.

Mixu - Wasn't happy at his appointment, I wanted Yogi at the time and when I saw his first game in charge against ICT in the cup, despite winning 3-0 I was not at all impressed and I can honestly say he is the only manager since Miller that I have wanted fired.

Yogi - delighted with the appointment and very sad when he was sacked, when he came in he and the board said it was a long term appointment and a lot of work needed done from top to bottom. Was unfortunate to have Fletch sold as soon as he arrived and only had Stokes for one season.

CC - Actually thought it was a very good appointment as he ticked a lot of boxes, good track record as an assistant and as a manager following a very high level playing career, the fact he had no prior connection to the club meant sentimentality played no part in his selection.

IWasThere2016
09-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Mr Ultra Critical here - aka Rod Petrie Hater - aka Mr Tenner :greengrin

Did not wants - Duff Jim, Blobby and Yogi

Couldn't decide - Mowbray

Wanted/Was happy with - McLeish, Sauzee, Collins, Mixu, Calderwood

I think we should appoint winners/high-achievers - the last list all played as internationalists/Euro-experienced, played in top leagues etc ... hence I'll be happy with MON :wink: and not J. Calderwood, JJ etc

calumb
09-11-2011, 01:50 PM
Miller was just appointed manager when I started going regularly and was there far too long.

Jocky Scott was a poor appointment and in hindsight so was Duffy.

I was very pleased with the McLeish appointment.

Happy but hesitant that Franck got it as at the time I don't think he had any coaching experience never mind managing, perhaps if he had been asked to be interim player/coach and look after things while they searched for a new manager it might have turned out a lot better.

Williamson - was a neccessity based on the club finances and to be fair did remarkably well given the task he was given.

Mowbray - was unsure until I heard his first interview and saw his first game in charge then I was completely sold.

Collins - Again hesitant at the appointment because of his lack of experience but after I saw the performance against Hearts in the LC was completely sold on how he wanted us to play, wish he was still at ER.

Mixu - Wasn't happy at his appointment, I wanted Yogi at the time and when I saw his first game in charge against ICT in the cup, despite winning 3-0 I was not at all impressed and I can honestly say he is the only manager since Miller that I have wanted fired.

Yogi - delighted with the appointment and very sad when he was sacked, when he came in he and the board said it was a long term appointment and a lot of work needed done from top to bottom. Was unfortunate to have Fletch sold as soon as he arrived and only had Stokes for one season.

CC - Actually thought it was a very good appointment as he ticked a lot of boxes, good track record as an assistant and as a manager following a very high level playing career, the fact he had no prior connection to the club meant sentimentality played no part in his selection.

Yes i remember hearing that and thinking the board had nailed it. Here we had a guy who was desperate for the Hibs job and appeared to have re-built a smaller club in Falkirk by bringing in good young players and also a guy who would not jump ship as soon as some championship job came available.
This makes the appointment of CC even more strange as here we had a guy who would jump ship as soon as any job came up in england and it did not even have to be a mangers job.
CC was interviewed at the same time a yogi so i reckon Petrie just picked the next name on his list so i am glad he is supposed to have nothing to do with it this time around.

Dashing Bob S
09-11-2011, 02:40 PM
I didn't want Mowbray. I thought he was a cheap, shabby option. Then I saw what he said about the job and I did a complete u-turn. I'd never heard a Hibs manager speak with such passion and vision, and a total commitment to the way I believe that every side wearing the famous green jersey's should set out to play. Here was a man in touch with the true aspirational lineage of Hibernian, from the Famous Five to Joe Baker to Turnbull's Tornadoes of Stanton, Cropley and Brownlie, to John Collins and Mickey Weir to the McLeish team of Sauzee, Latapy, Zitelli.

Whatever his flaws, I've never been more inspired by a Hibernian manager than I was by Mowbray. We didn't always get it right, we could be muscled out of games and he had a terrible blind spot concerning goalkeepers. But when it did come together, seeing those green youths tearing everybody a new one, and in style, made it a truly sublime time to be a Hibs fan.

I want those days back - and I'd rather gamble on them with somebody new and enthusiastic than indule in safe, stodgy fare. So you take your Jimmy's Jeffries and Calderwood's, and for that matter your other (yawn) 'tried and tested and bored everybody ****less SPL crap'. Let's get in somebody who really wants to make their mark, with new, fresh classy idea and with Hibs class and Hibs style.

Stevie Reid
09-11-2011, 02:52 PM
Miller was just appointed manager when I started going regularly and was there far too long.

I would disagree strongly with that - in his second last season we finished 3rd in the SPL, one point behind Motherwell in 2nd place and lost as few games as the league winners (Rangers' 9 in a row team, 7 defeats). We scored one less goal than Motherwell and had +12 goal difference compared to their zero. We finished 2 points ahead of Celtic (admittedly in dark days for them), and scored 10 more goals than them. In his last full season we finished 5th in the SPL (10 teams).

The following season Miller resigned after another disastrous derby against Hearts which we lost 3-1 - by this point we had played 7 games and had 10 points from our 3 wins, 3 defeats and a draw. We were dealing with a reduced budget due to the reconstruction of ER, and the squad suffered as a result - we brought in the likes of Ian Cameron to replace Michael O'Neill, for example. At this point, Hearts were doing the opposite - signing Neil McCann, Colin Cameron, Davie Weir and Jim Hamilton whilst getting extension after extension to keep that embarrassment of an away end open - so it shows just how long they've been overspending to gain success on the field at the expense of their infrastructure, and why the council should NEVER be allowed to help them out.

This transitional period under Miller and Hearts' renaissance under Jefferies (along with his dreadful derby record) definitely worked against AM, who was never the most popular even during the best times of his tenure. The 7-0 defeat at Ibrox certainly didn't help either, much like Celtic's resurgance under Tommy Burns, and both the OF turned us over by some considerable scores both home and away, which had been a rarity for all of Miller's tenure until that point. Basically the huge gap in spending between the OF and Hearts and the rest of the league was starting to show (I'm sure Aberdeen were still spending in their old fashioned ways at this point, but without any results).

Anyway, after Jocky Scott took over in the interim, followed by Jim Duffy, both were allowed to sign players in a classic example of funds only being made available in panic situations (IIRC, Scott was allowed to spend a quarter of a million on Yogi) - had these funds been made available to Miller when he was there, his signing record would strongly suggest that we would continue progressing. It would also have saved us spending the fortune that we did after McLeish came in, and getting out of the 1st Division.

As it was, having finished 3rd and 5th in his last two seasons, we were 5th in the league when Miller left - and finished the season in 9th place. The following season we finished 10th, and were relegated. So, all things considered, I think it's easier to make an argument that Miller wasn't here long enough, as opposed to being here too long.

Franck Stanton
09-11-2011, 03:01 PM
If we are being honest, apart from Mowbray [turned out to be good choice] and CC [ turned out to be a bad choice], then most Hibs supporters were happy with all the other appointments at the time they were made. It is easy , with hindsight, to claim they were the wrong choises, but at the time of appointing there weren't many posters decrying them. As for Mowbray, my first thought was "who" , but he arguably was best , CC never really floated many supporters boats and just went from bad to worse and was backed for too long. So in answer to the op's question, I can't, in all honesty, say I would not have made the same managerial appointments.

calumb
09-11-2011, 03:02 PM
I would disagree strongly with that - in his second last season we finished 3rd in the SPL, one point behind Motherwell in 2nd place and lost as few games as the league winners (Rangers' 9 in a row team, 7 defeats). We scored one less goal than Motherwell and had +12 goal difference compared to their zero. We finished 2 points ahead of Celtic (admittedly in dark days for them), and scored 10 more goals than them. In his last full season we finished 5th in the SPL (10 teams).

The following season Miller resigned after another disastrous derby against Hearts which we lost 3-1 - by this point we had played 7 games and had 10 points from our 3 wins, 3 defeats and a draw. We were dealing with a reduced budget due to the reconstruction of ER, and the squad suffered as a result - we brought in the likes of Ian Cameron to replace Michael O'Neill, for example. At this point, Hearts were doing the opposite - signing Neil McCann, Colin Cameron, Davie Weir and Jim Hamilton whilst getting extension after extension to keep that embarrassment of an away end open - so it shows just how long they've been overspending to gain success on the field at the expense of their infrastructure, and why the council should NEVER be allowed to help them out.

This transitional period under Miller and Hearts' renaissance under Jefferies (along with his dreadful derby record) definitely worked against AM, who was never the most popular even during the best times of his tenure. The 7-0 defeat at Ibrox certainly didn't help either, much like Celtic's resurgance under Tommy Burns, and both the OF turned us over by some considerable scores both home and away, which had been a rarity for all of Miller's tenure until that point. Basically the huge gap in spending between the OF and Hearts and the rest of the league was starting to show (I'm sure Aberdeen were still spending in their old fashioned ways at this point, but without any results).

Anyway, after Jocky Scott took over in the interim, followed by Jim Duffy, both were allowed to sign players in a classic example of funds only being made available in panic situations (IIRC, Scott was allowed to spend a quarter of a million on Yogi) - had these funds been made available to Miller when he was there, his signing record would strongly suggest that we would continue progressing. It would also have saved us spending the fortune that we did after McLeish came in, and getting out of the 1st Division.

As it was, having finished 3rd and 5th in his last two seasons, we were 5th in the league when Miller left - and finished the season in 9th place. The following season we finished 10th, and were relegated. So, all things considered, I think it's easier to make an argument that Miller wasn't here long enough, as opposed to being here too long.

Miller said when he took the job that we needed to judge him when he had been in the job 10 years i.e. that he was going to build the club up from the bottom but basically Millers main failing was that with the exception of Harper not one young player came through youth ranks and made any impression on the first team, so Miller had his chance and failed to improve the club. yes league placings may suggest things were not too bad but it was only 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw and i seem to remember a hell of a lot of draws.

Stevie Reid
09-11-2011, 03:21 PM
Miller said when he took the job that we needed to judge him when he had been in the job 10 years i.e. that he was going to build the club up from the bottom but basically Millers main failing was that with the exception of Harper not one young player came through youth ranks and made any impression on the first team, so Miller had his chance and failed to improve the club. yes league placings may suggest things were not too bad but it was only 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw and i seem to remember a hell of a lot of draws.

I find the bit in bold startling. Our league placings under Miller were consistently good (in context) and he won us the league cup and got to another final - we also qualified for Europe twice and had many other semi final appearances during his time. How is that failing to improve us?

I also find the comment regarding young players a bit strange: -

Kevin Harper
John Collins*
Mickey Weir*
Paul Kane*
Gordon Hunter (19 when Miller took over)
Pat McGinlay (signed aged 20)
Willie Miller
Steven Tweed
Billy Findlay (may not have been the best but 93 first team appearances)
Dave Farrell (may not have been the best but 84 first team appearances)

* Miller may not have given them their debuts, but they certainly flourished under him.

There's probably more too.

A good way to judge a manager is by looking at the state of their club when they took over, compared to where they were when they left - Miller left us in a much stronger position than when he took over, after ten years of building.

Jim Duffy is quite a manager - he managed to destroy what Miller had built in just over a year.

jgl07
09-11-2011, 03:41 PM
The Hibs Board have been basically giving the fans the manager they wanted:

It was certainly the case with Sauzee, Collins and Mixu. Hughes had some opponents in the fanbase but the majority seemed delighted.

Duffy was expected but not wildly popular as was McLeish.

Williamson brought some gasps of exasperation from the support but most were resigned to his appointment before it happened.

Mowbray was totally unexpected. Most had expected Alan Kernahan who had performed miracles with Clyde but has hardly been seen since.

Calderwood was generally accepted because at least he was not the other Calderwood.

I would not reject Jefferies. He did an excellent job with Kilmarnock achieving good results and playing a decent style of football. He knows the Scottish game inside out.

calumb
09-11-2011, 04:01 PM
Miller did exactly what he said he would, our league placings were consistently good (in context) and he won us the league cup and got to another final - we also qualified for Europe twice and had many other semi final appearances during his time. How is that failing to improve us? Crazy statement.

I also find the comment regarding young players a bit strange: -

Kevin Harper
John Collins*
Mickey Weir*
Paul Kane*
Gordon Hunter (19 when Miller took over)
Pat McGinlay (signed aged 20)
Willie Miller
Stephen Tweed
Billy Findlay (may not have been the best but 93 first team appearances)
Dave Farrell (may not have been the best but 84 first team appearances)

* Miller may not have given them their debuts, but they certainly flourished under him.

There's probably more too.

Jim Duffy is quite a manager - he managed to destroy what Miller had built up over ten years, in just over a year.

John Collins, Mickey Weir, Paul Kane, Gordon Hunter were already first team players when he arrived, Willie Miller was on the groundstaff and Steven Tweed was in the youth system when he arrived.

My point was that in our lifetime only Miller has really got the oportunity to change the club completely and he failed, McGinlay and Farrell did not come through the Hibs Youth system, the ones that did, Billy Findlay, Chris Jackson, Graeme Love, Graeme Donald, Graeme and Greg Miller were not fit to lace the boots of Collins, Weir and Kane.

Miller did build a couple of good teams but it generally done by spending money. Goram and Archibald which was Duffs (or whoevers) money and then the team with O'Neill, Jackson and Wright which was STF'S money, but that team had breaking up when Miller left and despite him having 10 years at the club there was no-one in the reserves able to fill the void.

Duffy had to go out and buy half a team which he did badly but he did not destroy 10 years of Millers work.

Stevie Reid
09-11-2011, 04:11 PM
John Collins, Mickey Weir, Paul Kane, Gordon Hunter were already first team players when he arrived, Willie Miller was on the groundstaff and Steven Tweed was in the youth system when he arrived.

My point was that in our lifetime only Miller has really got the oportunity to change the club completely and he failed, McGinlay and Farrell did not come through the Hibs Youth system, the ones that did, Billy Findlay, Chris Jackson, Graeme Love, Graeme Donald, Graeme and Greg Miller were not fit to lace the boots of Collins, Weir and Kane.

Miller did build a couple of good teams but it generally done by spending money. Goram and Archibald which was Duffs (or whoevers) money and then the team with O'Neill, Jackson and Wright which was STF'S money, but that team had breaking up when Miller left and despite him having 10 years at the club there was no-one in the reserves able to fill the void.

Duffy had to go out and buy half a team which he did badly but he did not destroy 10 years of Millers work.

Couldn't disagree more.

calumb
09-11-2011, 04:27 PM
Couldn't disagree more.

with what exactly?

From my point of view Miller destroyed the good work that Stanton and Blackley had done in getting the Hibs Youth policy into producing players for the first team e.g. Collins,Hunter,Kane,Weir,Rice McKee,Milne,Miller and Tweed. Other than Harper none of the players that came through the Hibs youth system in 10 years were of any note and i think it was one of the reasons Hibs took control of the youth setup away from the manager.

Stevie Reid
09-11-2011, 04:32 PM
with what exactly?

From my point of view Miller destroyed the good work that Stanton and Blackley had done in getting the Hibs Youth policy into producing players for the first team e.g. Collins,Hunter,Kane,Weir,Rice McKee,Milne,Miller and Tweed. Other than Harper none of the players that came through the Hibs youth system in 10 years were of any note and i think it was one of the reasons Hibs took control of the youth setup away from the manager.

I couldn't disagree more with basically all of what you have said.

HIBERNIAN-0762
09-11-2011, 04:37 PM
Miller

Duffy

Sauzee

Williamson

Calderwood

Speedway
09-11-2011, 04:41 PM
I couldn't disagree more with everything that I don't agree with.

I actually wrote to the club when McLeish was appointed asking what the heckfire they thought they were playing at. I was convinced we should have appointed Tommy Burns (where is he now?)

When John Teckletash got the job, I didn't care because I'd grown so disillusioned under Miller. Same with Duffy, completely indifferent. Hibs TV was fun back then though.

With Sauzee I was elated and thought this was our chance to re-establish the club in Europe. Blobby, wasn't fussed, thought it was alright. Mowbray had me angry because I confused him with Middlesborough winger Stuart Ripley and wondered what the heckfire we were doing giving the job to someone like him.

With Collins wasn't fussed, same with Mixu, same with Hughes. Just glad the likes of Simpson and Ince didn't get the job back then. Calderwood I actually thought was an excellent choice.

So, as you can see for yourself, I know sweet hee-haw about who should be manager. In which case, 'Mon the MO'N.

ScottB
09-11-2011, 04:53 PM
I wasn't massively keen on Hughes, as ironically I thought it was too much of a boring, safe choice haha but also that as other SPL managers were aware of him, his tactics would be easy to suss out... Which they were!

CC wasn't my choice either, I got a bit swept up in the desire for Clarke, who I wanted the last couple times, didn't think he'd be a total disaster though.

I thought Sauzee was a bad choice, as we lost our best player at the worst time through that move, again didn't expect him to bomb as he did.


Collins and Mixu were the guys I wanted at the time also. Mowbray I had zero opinion on as I had no clue who he was...

calumb
09-11-2011, 04:56 PM
I couldn't disagree more with basically all of what you have said.

Oh well if you think that a team that had the likes of Ray Wilkins, Brian Welsh, Darren Dodds, Joe Mclaughlin, Ian Cameron and Andy Dow playing in it every week was a good strong team to have after 10 years of building then thats up to you.

Stevie Reid
09-11-2011, 05:06 PM
Oh well if you think that a team that had the likes of Ray Wilkins, Brian Welsh, Darren Dodds, Joe Mclaughlin, Ian Cameron and Andy Dow playing in it every week was a good strong team to have after 10 years of building then thats up to you.

There's a lot more to my argument than that, as detailed earlier.

I may write more tomorrow, I simply do not have time at the moment.

The Sea-gull
09-11-2011, 05:45 PM
The thing is hindsight is a wonderful thing so I don't think it is right to claim an appointment was wrong after the event so basing my response to this thread on my feelings when they were appointed rather than performance in job.

Going back through Petrie's time at the club (not saying he has solely appointed all these but think he has been around when they have been appointed):-

Duffy - did not want him.
McLeish - was happy enough with him.
Sauzee - did not want him.
Williamson - was happy enough with him.
Mowbray - did not want him.
Collins - had mixed feelings.
Mixu - did not want him.
Hughes - had mixed feelings.
Calderwood - had mixed feelings.

DH1875
09-11-2011, 05:49 PM
CC. Said all along he wasn't the man for the job and wanted McCall before he got the well job.